Random Observations

[litzie]

I don't think there's a thread like this at the moment - if there is, my apologies.

One of my favorite things about btvs is that almost every time I re-watch an episode I see something new. About a month ago I was watching season one again, and I noticed something in Teacher's Pet: one of the funny side bits in the episode is that the she-mantis only mates with virgins in order to create her eggs before biting off her victims heads. But her first victim, the science teacher, is like a 50 year old man! originally I just assumed that she killed him to get his job without mating with him, but the evidence suggests otherwise: his head is not with his body, and there are eggs hatching in the science room's closet at the end of the episode. So, in effect, the writers were saying that the poor kindly 50+ year old science teacher was a virgin! which...I kind of find hilarious.

Anyone else similarly notice new things after multiple viewings?

[vampmogs]

Well mine isn't funny as that, good catch by the way, but something was pointed out to me about 'Afterlife' that for some strange reason had never registered with me before.

Someone pointed out to me that when Willow and Tara are doing the spell to make the demon who rode in with Buffy solid, it isn't part of the spell that Willow does her own little bit when she breaks away from Tara and is actually Willow doing her own magic because it is faster and she is bascially, taking control- power blah blah blah magic is bad Willow of s6. Hadn't occured to me for some strange reason.

I also don't know if this counts but I could never understand what Nick B says in 'Normal Again' to Spike in the graveyard scene till the other day and I cracked up laughing. He calls Spike "Willy wanna bite" which I found utterly hillarious because up until that viewing which must have been about the 300th bloody time I've watched this episode, I couldn't understand what he was saying here. I never knew if he was saying well Will (to Willow) he wants to bite me but he can't, I just couldn't understand the delivery. Now that I understand it I have much more appreciation for that awesome line. :)

[KingofCretins]

I was rewatching "Phases", and if I had noticed this before, I completely forgot it. When Buffy and Willow are talking about guys and Willow wistfully says "it used to be so much easier to tell if a boy liked you. He'd
punch you on the arm and then run back to his friends."

And right as she's saying it, Xander walks up to them in the hallway and punches Buffy in the arm and says "hey".

That... is pretty funny to me :)

[selenspuffy]

I was rewatching "Phases", and if I had noticed this before, I completely forgot it. When Buffy and Willow are talking about guys and Willow wistfully says "it used to be so much easier to tell if a boy liked you. He'd
punch you on the arm and then run back to his friends."

And right as she's saying it, Xander walks up to them in the hallway and punches Buffy in the arm and says "hey".

That... is pretty funny to me :)

Hey..I've never noticed this one, it's really funny:) I'm never so careful about the details but I'll try to be, from now on, bec they're actually like the real parts of the episodes(I couldn't understand what I mean, but whatever:), I hope you'll got it)

[Jenni Lou]

litzie's is my favorite catch so far. Good one! Poor old science teacher. :( :p

I also think that's a cute one, KoC. :) Poor Willow and her crush. Phases is a great shippy ep for B/X though. :crush:

I haven't watch the series in so long and am therefore in terrible shape to point any small nuances out. I honestly can't think of a single one!

[ciderdrinker]

I was just watching Innocence for the like hundredth time and I noticed something I'd never seen before.

In the scene when Angelus appears to Willow and Xander in the school hall and Buffy appears behind him, he kisses her and then throws her to the ground next to a bust on a plinth. There is a brass plaque on the plinth and it reads "In memoriam of Principal Robert..." (you can't see the surname), so I have deduced that it is for Principal Flutie on the basis that he was eaten in the previous season and the "All the kids here are free to call me Bob" line from the first episode.

Slightly off topic because this is on Angel but in the episode "Birthday" when Cordy and Fred are cleaning the floor, they are using a product called "Stain-Be-Gone" - which is of course the product she was auditioning for when she got her first vision. Very cool, especially as the episode is all about how the visions would eventually kill her!!

[NileQT87]

phases was heavy on buffy/xander? what was i missing? i saw more buffy/giles and xander/larry [really uncomfortable] innuendo. i guess you're talking about how xander got upset that buffy warded off larry and he felt his macho points were insulted.

[Jenni Lou]

Slightly off topic because this is on Angel but in the episode "Birthday" when Cordy and Fred are cleaning the floor, they are using a product called "Stain-Be-Gone" - which is of course the product she was auditioning for when she got her first vision. Very cool, especially as the episode is all about how the visions would eventually kill her!!

Nice catch! I love that. :) And you're right, very cool since it about the visions and all.

phases was heavy on buffy/xander? what was i missing? i saw more buffy/giles and xander/larry [really uncomfortable] innuendo. i guess you're talking about how xander got upset that buffy warded off larry and he felt his macho points were insulted.

Well, there was the scene in funeral parlor before and after Theresa vamps out. Some might not take it as a romantic kind of closeness and some might.

We all don't always see things the same way. :)

[ciderdrinker]

Well, there was the scene in funeral parlor before and after Theresa vamps out. Some might not take it as a romantic kind of closeness and some might.

Oh edfinately a rmoantic kind of closeness in Xander's eyes at least. If it wasn't a romantic angle then why would he say "Oh, no, my life's not too complicated" about the fact that he's still in love with Buffy but now seeing Cordelia, and a bit jealous of Oz with Willow.

[NileQT87]

i thought the "oh, no. my life's not complicated" was referring to buffy being in love with angel, yet angelus is killing people she knows? it was about buffy in regards to angel/angelus, not xander's issues.

[KingofCretins]

The shooting script is pretty clear that it's supposed to be romantic tension, and that's what plays on screen. His life is "complicated" because he already is juggling jealousy over Willow with his infatuation with Cordy, and add on top of that a very intense little moment with his favorite of all, Buffy, and... complicated.

[Weredog]

One thing that took me forever to notice was in "Gone" when Invisible Buffy whistles "Going Through the Motions" when she leaves the social workers' office. It honestly just clicked it my head when I watched the episode last spring. That makes it, what, 5 years later. lol

[NileQT87]

ok, i get now why it's a xander w/ buffy moment (i had to rewatch it). yep. you're right. xander is referring to himself and his situation where he loves buffy, but is with cordelia. and of course, willow loves him.

ironically, xander's near ignoring of willow's crush and choice to see it as nothing beyond their friendship is exactly how buffy views xander's crush on her. she chooses ignorance, but knows of the infatuation. though that line also has a meaning for buffy's situation with angelus. but yeah, i haven't watched that episode in a long time.

one of the last things i noticed was that buffy's birthday can't be on january 19th without the scoobies being at school on a sunday.

[KingofCretins]

I can't figure how Buffy's deal with Angel makes *Xander's* life more complicated in ways that it wasn't already -- she still has capital Issues with someone he doesn't like.

I do think there are pretty intentional parallel's between Xander and Willow and Buffy and Xander through that stretch. In both cases, you've got one person with full on "in love with you" energy for the other, and the other who A) knows it, B) chooses to ignore, and C) occasionally realizes they do, in fact, have the option of returning it if they would just decide to (Xander in "When She Was Bad" and "Becoming, Part II", Buffy in "Inca Mummy Girl" and "Phases", and possibly in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered").

I'm stumped for things I hadn't noticed at the moment, but I'm watching Season 5 of Angel at the moment. Maybe I'll switch back to some early Buffy... Season 1!

Wait, something small I love from "Innocence" -- when Xander has his great "I'm having a thought... now I'm having a plan", he does the funniest thing with his eyebrows, like him having had a plan is the weirdest, scariest thing he ever heard :)

[Firecracker]

This is an old one that I noticed a few years back while watching consequences I think it was... when Buffy visits Faith's apartment at the end if you look behind her you can see Faith's home made punching bag has a vamp face drawn on it similar to Spike's drawing in chosen. ;)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I only really twigged the other day that in Restless, Tara talks about her "demon" self/the events that unfold in Family in a tangental way: she says, to Willow, "You don't know everything about me". Either Willow's realised on a subconscious level that Tara's hiding something...or the witch has a little nip of prophecy in her dream coffee?

[alexa]

I suppose I was a little innocent when watching Buffy season 3 for the first time and missed most of the sexual metaphors between Buffy and Angel. There are a few.. like the now oh so obvious orgasm moment when he bites her. And in Enemies when she says something like 'I don't like to rub your nose in it' (It being sex that they can't have).. 'And I'm suddenly wondering where that saying comes from.' LOL (And I'm not explaining that incase some young innocents are reading ;) )

[NileQT87]

"rubbing your nose in it" and her wondering suddenly where that came from... i think it's a bit more than just sex. ;) nose to bush. that's all i'm saying. or maybe i just have a really dirty mind.

i'm still wondering what the heck buffy meant by vampires can't be telephone operators (the red cross joke is obvious--the blood banks even make similar jokes about that at halloween). frankly, i'd imagine being a telephone operator is probably the ideal and least fatal vampire-in-the-workforce option. nothing to smell. it's a talking through a cord and low-contact job.

[vampmogs]

i'm still wondering what the heck buffy meant by vampires can't be telephone operators (the red cross joke is obvious--the blood banks even make similar jokes about that at halloween). frankly, i'd imagine being a telephone operator is probably the ideal and least fatal vampire-in-the-workforce option. nothing to smell. it's a talking through a cord and low-contact job.

Think she just meant, they can't be a regular jo and this is a pretty regular job.

[Vampmaster]

I was recently rewatching Becoming and noticed practically the same line was used in this episode by Spike when he was talking to Drusilla and Buffy in Two To Go when fighting with Willow. This kind of made me laugh and just made me admire the brillance of Joss' writing that little bit more :)


Becoming
Spike: I don't want to hurt you, baby.

She grabs him by the throat and shoves him into the wall. He slaps her
arm aside and punches her in the face.

Spike: Doesn't mean I won't.


Two To Go
BUFFY: I don't want to hurt you.

Willow punches Buffy. Buffy flies backward a long way, crashing into a magazine rack against a wall. The geeks look even more scared. Xander looks alarmed, moves in front of Dawn.

WILLOW: Not a problem.

Willow starts toward the guys again. Buffy gets up, now wearing her kick-ass expression. She strides over to get in front of Willow again.

BUFFY: I said I didn't *want* to.

Buffy backhands Willow. Now it's Willow's turn to fly backward, crashing into a glass display case. Crash, tinkle, broken glass and wood and merchandise everywhere. Willow lands in a heap on the floor.

BUFFY: Didn't say I wouldn't.


I know this is different to what others have said but I hope its ok.

[Thomas]

In 'Never Leave Me' when the Bringers attack. One of the Bringers knocks Dawn down and goes to stab her, and it kind of looked like the scene from 'Lessons' with the potential being stabbed. I though it was great foreshadowing to 'Potential.'

[modifiedblind]

I watching the episode Halloween, when Willow and Giles go to find Ethan and Giles tells Willow to leave, you hear a door close, but she's still a ghost so she wouldnt have used the door, or well, she couldnt use the door.

[litzie]

I was just watching When She Was Bad, and in the very end when they're trying to decide what to do since they bashed their enemy's bones to dust the day before, the music swells and you can just barely hear Xander suggest miniature golf and willow say there's no course. Which - funny, in light of Ted.

[KingofCretins]

Just noticed something funny in "Storyteller". When Andrew is telling the First about how he got the knife, he says "Yeah. It wasn't easy. I had to meet this demon guy who sells all kinds of weird weapons and stuff... well, I didn't buy them, but there were poison arrows and this sort of collapsible sword—"

That's so awesomely subtle a reference, I think, to the same dealer where Wesley was getting his toys in "Angel".

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I was just watching When She Was Bad, and in the very end when they're trying to decide what to do since they bashed their enemy's bones to dust the day before, the music swells and you can just barely hear Xander suggest miniature golf and willow say there's no course. Which - funny, in light of Ted.

Also, considering that at the end of the episode, there certainly wouldn't be if there was one to begin with.

Anyone else noticed the links (sorry) between golf and evil? First Ted, then the Mayor...?

[Nikki]

I've renamed this thread and moved it to the General Chats so Angel can be discussed in here too :)

[kana]

Just noticed something funny in "Storyteller". When Andrew is telling the First about how he got the knife, he says "Yeah. It wasn't easy. I had to meet this demon guy who sells all kinds of weird weapons and stuff... well, I didn't buy them, but there were poison arrows and this sort of collapsible sword—"

That's so awesomely subtle a reference, I think, to the same dealer where Wesley was getting his toys in "Angel".

Would that be Emile, or his supplier? I suppose Emile could have been a demon I guess.

[Ehlwyen]

Also, considering that at the end of the episode, there certainly wouldn't be if there was one to begin with.

Anyone else noticed the links (sorry) between golf and evil? First Ted, then the Mayor...?

:evil: Poor mini-golf getting a bad rap! Though some of those angles are down right wicked. :lol:

Or perhaps instead of the forces of evil and good doing ultimate battle, they should just invite each other out for regular outings of mini-golf which is something we can all enjoy! :heart:

[Spuffy4l87]

I was just re-watching "I Robot, You Jane" and I noticed somethign funny. When Moloch is going through Buffy's file before he sends it to Fritz it gives Buffy's information, it says that she is a spohmore (which we know she is) and that her birthday is 10/24/80, then when we see the record on Fritz screen it says that she is a Senior and her birthday is 5-6-79? Anyone else notice this!?!

Also, on the computer screen before it appears one of the icons says Buffy, I Robot. The rest are too blurry to see.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Rewatching season one, there's a bit in "Never Kill a Boy on a First Date" that made me go "hmm...". The vampire who's talking about people being judged, the one who's the mislead for the Annointed One, says at one point that "they whispered to me while I was asleep" (or something like that), telling Buffy that he knew who she was because some unknown persons told him about her in his pre-rising-as-a-vampire stage. Which makes me wonder... who was whispering to him? His sire? All other vampires? Is there some kind of vampire hive mind/collective unconscious (which is how they learn to fight?)? Is that what the vampire psych student in Conversations with Dead People was talking about re being "connected"? Interesting implications if that's the case - it emphasises the solitary nature of hte slayer, if all vampires are connected while she's not (except with dead slayers who went before...well, and faith and all the new slayers later obv).

[ZacDeath]

I just caught this the other day and found it hilarious. In "Halloween" Principle Snyder is voluteering people up to chaperone the kids, he says to Buffy something about "up to her Halloween usual, throwing eggs, keying cars,bobbing for apples.

[missperoxide]

I was recently rewatching Becoming and noticed practically the same line was used in this episode by Spike when he was talking to Drusilla and Buffy in Two To Go when fighting with Willow. This kind of made me laugh and just made me admire the brillance of Joss' writing that little bit more :)

Becoming
Spike: I don't want to hurt you, baby.
She grabs him by the throat and shoves him into the wall. He slaps her
arm aside and punches her in the face.
Spike: Doesn't mean I won't.

Two To Go
BUFFY: I don't want to hurt you.
Willow punches Buffy. Buffy flies backward a long way, crashing into a magazine rack against a wall. The geeks look even more scared. Xander looks alarmed, moves in front of Dawn.
WILLOW: Not a problem.
Willow starts toward the guys again. Buffy gets up, now wearing her kick-ass expression. She strides over to get in front of Willow again.
BUFFY: I said I didn't *want* to.
Buffy backhands Willow. Now it's Willow's turn to fly backward, crashing into a glass display case. Crash, tinkle, broken glass and wood and merchandise everywhere. Willow lands in a heap on the floor.
BUFFY: Didn't say I wouldn't.

I know this is different to what others have said but I hope its ok.

Cool, I haven't noticed that one! Buffy really is quoting Spike quite a bit.
For example:

Dead Things:

BUFFY: (yelling) I am not your girl! (knocks him to the ground, keeps pounding him, he takes it) You don't ... have a soul! There is nothing good or clean in you. You are dead inside! You can't feel anything real! I could never ... be your girl!
SPIKE: (face swollen, voice slurred) You always hurt ... the one you love, pet. Buffy? (she gets up & walks off, Spike tries to stop her but can't) Buffy...

and later:

BUFFY: It wasn't the demons. It was Warren. He knew Katrina. He had something to do with it, I know it.
WILLOW: How can you be sure?
BUFFY: You always hurt the one you love.

Also
Fool for Love

SPIKE: Here endeth the lesson. I just wonder if you'll like it as much as she did.

and Showtime

BUFFY: See? Dust. Just like the rest of 'em. I don't know what's coming next, but I do know it's gonna be just like this. Hard. Painful. But in the end it's gonna be us. If we all do our parts, believe it, we'll be the ones left standing. Here endeth the lesson.

[vampmogs]

For the first time today I noticed something in 'Helpless' that I'd never noticed before. The episode begins with Buffy and Angel training, Buffy pinning Angel down and putting a bread roll to his chest, to imitate a staking. Her and Angel begin the awkward dance when she asks if he was satisfied and try and tell themselves that they aren't having satisfaction in that sense. In the following scene Buffy is all agitated with Giles, talking about how she has some "energy to burn" and wants to go out on patrol. I never quite understood why she was so anxious and so filled up with energy.. then for the first time I realised how she was playing with the cylinder shaped stone (phallic object) and realised it all makes perfect sense. :p

Some foreshadowing’s;

Warren actually foreshadows what Willow does to him at least twice;

He states to Xander "Lets see how popular you are without a face" in 'Seeing Red' and then in 'Villains' he angrily snaps at Rack saying "Oh I'm sorry lets talk about my skin troubles!" Of course we know Willow flays Warren alive. Pretty creepy.

And in the episode 'The Freshman' when Buffy and Willow are in the bookstore Buffy states "I can't wait to see the look on my mum's face when she gets the bill for these books. I hope it's a funny aneurism." Joyce actually died of an aneurism in 'I Was Made to Love You/ The Body.' And boy it wasn't funny.

And the 'Here endeth the lesson thing" Buffy and Spike aren't the only characters to say it either, the Master also states it in 'Never Kill A Boy On The First Date.'

[missperoxide]

And the 'Here endeth the lesson thing" Buffy and Spike aren't the only characters to say it either, the Master also states it in 'Never Kill A Boy On The First Date.'

Yeah I know, but Buffy didn't attend the nice little sermon, so she possibly couldn't have been quoting The Master in Showtime.

[holypotatoes]

I just caught this the other day and found it hilarious. In "Halloween" Principle Snyder is voluteering people up to chaperone the kids, he says to Buffy something about "up to her Halloween usual, throwing eggs, keying cars,bobbing for apples.

Am I stupid 'cause I don't get it. :s Can someone explain this one please? :lol:

[Cell]

Snyder abhors anything kid related, so that was to show that while he thought less of Buffy for doing the delinquent things, he also thought just as bad of her for doing some pointless childish thing like bobbing for apples.

[holypotatoes]

Ah. I guess that makes sense. I was thinking I was just missing something completely. :lol:

[kana]

Thought I read this somewhere here but Holtz and Wood both have vendettas against soulled vampires. Both of them go about their revenge in such a way that mirrors how they were wronged: Wood takes on Spike in a one on one combat to the death (like Spike killed his mother) and Holtz methodically went for the worst way to hurt Angel (like Angelus did to Holtz).

Holtz also sounds like holz which is the german word for 'wood' (thank you wikipedia) which of course links with the wooden stake which is bad news for vamps and of course Wood is well, Wood. So nice parallels.

[allthings]

Warren actually foreshadows what Willow does to him at least twice;

He states to Xander "Lets see how popular you are without a face" in 'Seeing Red' and then in 'Villains' he angrily snaps at Rack saying "Oh I'm sorry lets talk about my skin troubles!" Of course we know Willow flays Warren alive. Pretty creepy.
[/I]

I totally hadnt noticed that, thanks for pointing it out! I hate Warren lol

[digitalMindy]

Had it not been for Whedonesque, I probably would never have realized the the "hot girl" from The Office is actually Cousin Beth from the episode Family.

What a moron, huh?

[holypotatoes]

Are you talking about Amy Adams? And no you're not a moron. I'm surprised I didn't realize it was her sooner. I mean I've loved Drop Dead Gorgeous since that movie came out and I didn't even notice it was the same person in Buffy. :lol: I guess I'm not very observant. Although she did look familiar.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I watched the Wish the other day and thought – hang about, why does Angel still come to Sunnydale, even if Buffy doesn’t? There maybe be some practical explanation (Whistler briefed him before the universe changed??) But it made me think, on a symbolic level, perhaps Angel is more connected to Fate and Destiny and all those capitalised things than Buffy is? Buffy “flunked the written”, but when the writing is on the wall – writing that says Buffy is Angel’s Destiny, his path to Redemption – Angel follows it, even if the world is in flux? Not sure I have any conclusions on this topic, but it made me scratch my chin and go “hmm”. I sometimes feel that buffy and angel operate in slightly different philosophical universes.

[NileQT87]

i've gotten the vibe that various powers are actually more preoccupied with angel's destiny than buffy's. woflram & hart (namely lilah) even makes comments about buffy in that manner.

in some ways, the powers were seeing buffy somewhat as a stepping stone for angel. angel has a lot more fate and destiny going on. buffy is often looked over in ats as being the small town vampire slayer. most of buffy's enemies even have much less grandiose plans than angel's tend to have--in fact most of buffy's villains are either personal or pretty simple-minded with limited intentions in the power game. and most of the ones who have legitimate hopes for power, it's often rather small-town sunnydale-focused (or in glory's case--didn't give a crap about where she was banished to) and the villains are completely ambivalent about buffy's presence outside of a nuisance stopping them. angel's enemies are rarely ambivalent about him--they've specifically chosen angel as part of their plans--he's always the one they specifically are going after, rather than buffy getting in the way of plans that never actually included her.

buffy is likely going to be a major player in the end of magic--that's by far her most important destiny in the overall 'verse view--in terms of power. but angel has never been considered small potatoes the way most of the major powers have always viewed buffy.

also remember that while buffy is endlessly replaceable in a long line of slayers, angel isn't (or wasn't until there was more than one ensouled vampire). angel's destiny is a lot more specific to him than buffy's is to her.

as for angel and whistler--the viva las vegas, slayer, interrupted and a stake to the heart comics are the closest we have to the period in between new york/los angeles and sunnydale... much of it about angel and whistler.

[Michael]

When we denigrate or disparage people it is not usually because they are unimportant, but because they are more important than we would like.
So it is with Buffy, whose actions frustrating the Master, the Mayor, Adam. Glory, and The First cannot be written down as small time stuff.At the end of S7 Angel stays in LA because Buffy asks him to, in order to have a "second front" in the event that she loses the battle in Sunnydale. The primacy of the Slayer is acknowledged by her friends, and also by her enemies in their own resentful fashion.

[Nina]

I agree with Nile's observation actually. Buffy will end the story as the person who ends the era of magic. But Angel will be a big player as well, only for him ... it's already a fact. The series are full of it;

"The prophecies all agree that when the final battle is waged, [the Vampire with a Soul] plays a key role."
(Blood Money)

"The Powers That Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the Apocalypse?"
(I Will Remember You)

"Remember the prophecy, Angel? The one that says in the time of the apocalypse, you'd play a major part? How you never knew whether you'd be on the side of good or evil? Well, now you know. Thanks to you, this frail, little Power That Was has just enough strength in her to wipe out your whole species. And it's all on your hands."
Of course, Jasmine played with words, but Angel plays a part in the time of the apocalypse.

"The vampire with the soul is positioned to be a major player in the apocalypse."
Again, the apocalypse, not just an apocalypse ... but the apocalypse.

Besides, Nile already pointed out in another thread, that Ats is full of religious references; Angel lying in Connor's lap like the Pieta is one of them also Wesley the Judas after he betrayed Angel and Angel is crucified a couple of times. Also the name Angel of course; Angelus is a prayer, an Angel is a messenger from God and of course Saint Angelus, a martyr who was 26 when he became a hermit, until he was called to do his job. (I think that the last one is not on purpose ... but it's funny how it kind of looks like Angel's life who was 26 when he was sired and when he got his soul back, he became a hermit until the PTB told him to fight.)

And of course the special interests of the Powers that Be. They are really interested in Angel, from all the warriors in the world, the picked him, not much more than a trainwreck. They put energy in him, they found him, contacted him, showed him a way, they saved him in "Amends" and they did send Doyle to Angel in "City of ...". I guess that a lot of other warriors would be easier to get as their warrior. And what about Cordelia, his best friend, becoming a higher being.

In Reprise, Holand told Angel that W&H are above winning and losing, but Angel makes them sweat in ATF.

And the Old Ones, we heard about them for the first time in BtVS .. but there is a big chance that it's Angel who has to fight/stop those (Illyria is probably the first of many). And that would be another legendary enemy for Angel after he fought a fallen PTB and his fights against the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart.

I guess that the big question is; Is the big apocalypse the final battle? And is that the same battle as the one where Buffy is going to end the era of magic? Or is it something different. And is what happens in Atf already the start of the final fight? Did Angel already his thing? Or did Angel something really stupid when he killed Drogyn, the guardian of the deeper well and now all the Old ones are unguarded and can escape ... but I guess this all a little bit too much for this thread.

[icecreamkiller]

Isn't it interesting how the characters seem to every once in a while make a fuss about Buffy never having killed a human and the possibility that one day she might have to cross that line?

I like how they all forget about Gwedolyn Post. I've read all the arguments that say Buffy didn't kill Post because she was struck by lightning - but that resulted from Buffy severing her arm. It's like saying a gunman isn't guilty of murder because it was the bullet that killed the victim, the gunman just pulled the trigger. In a very clear way, a parallel can be drawn between Buffy cutting off Post's arm and pulling a trigger.

And of course, there's The Gift, in which Giles kills Ben after giving him a short speech on Buffy being a hero and being incapable of killing a person... when two episodes earlier, in Spiral, Buffy kills one of the Knights of Byzantium by sticking a battle axe into his chest (in the fight on top of the RV).

Now one can argue that Giles was still entitled to that speech because he never actually saw either of those things happen, but there's NFFY, in which Buffy discusses with Willow the possibility of killing a human being as if she's never done it before. She's clearly also forgotten about Caleb - although merging with the First gave him superpowers, no indication was ever given that he was anything other than human.

Hm.

[NileQT87]

in ats, we had several cases of prophesied children... the blind children in blind date were specifically mentioned as being a part of the same apocalypse angel is meant to take part in (scroll of aberjian).

then there's jo's daughter in judgment--though she wouldn't be in the "come of age" category yet.

the blind seer children in particular is something that was specifically in that same set of prophecies.

what roles do they have to play? or it just better off being dropped and never heard of again?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Before I come back to Nile and Nina's points, just wanted to get this down, a different random observation.

I was thinking about the Body Politic (the ancient or medieval idea that society is like a body, all the parts have to work together) and Buffy and about Buffy as a leader. But then I thought about this passage in Corinthians:

“For as the body is one, and hath
many members... so also is Christ.... And the eye
cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor
again the head to the feet, I have no need of you....
Now ye are the body of Christ and members in partic-
ular...” (I Corinthians 12:12-27).

Given Buffy's messianic imagery tendendcies... rather reminds me of the joining spell in season 4!


EDIT:

i've gotten the vibe that various powers are actually more preoccupied with angel's destiny than buffy's. woflram & hart (namely lilah) even makes comments about buffy in that manner.

I think the feeling’s mutual on Buffy’s part – she doesn’t seem particularly interested in/curious about them. When asked about god she says there’s, “nothing solid” to be known about that, after all. The heaven she went to didn’t have anything to do with the PTBs, from her perspective at least.

Perhaps you might say that since the Powers are concerned with Destiny and Fate and all that, the people who aren’t as bound by fate just aren’t their concern? It’s not that Buffy’s not important, but she’s not part of the Grand Scheme of Things laid out by the PTB. However, perhaps the PTBs aren’t all-powerful, they’re just more powerful than most? And that humans can make their own destinies, if they’re not being meddled with all the time?

[KingofCretins]

Isn't it interesting how the characters seem to every once in a while make a fuss about Buffy never having killed a human and the possibility that one day she might have to cross that line?

I like how they all forget about Gwedolyn Post. I've read all the arguments that say Buffy didn't kill Post because she was struck by lightning - but that resulted from Buffy severing her arm. It's like saying a gunman isn't guilty of murder because it was the bullet that killed the victim, the gunman just pulled the trigger. In a very clear way, a parallel can be drawn between Buffy cutting off Post's arm and pulling a trigger.

And of course, there's The Gift, in which Giles kills Ben after giving him a short speech on Buffy being a hero and being incapable of killing a person... when two episodes earlier, in Spiral, Buffy kills one of the Knights of Byzantium by sticking a battle axe into his chest (in the fight on top of the RV).

Now one can argue that Giles was still entitled to that speech because he never actually saw either of those things happen, but there's NFFY, in which Buffy discusses with Willow the possibility of killing a human being as if she's never done it before. She's clearly also forgotten about Caleb - although merging with the First gave him superpowers, no indication was ever given that he was anything other than human.

Hm.

Buffy has never killed a human being by any right that she enjoys as the Slayer alone, is the broader point. She's never entitled herself to kill where she wouldn't have had the right to do so by the mere fact of her humanity. The Knights (she killed several) were all undeniably straightforward self-defense. Buffy killed them in a context in which it also would have been right for Xander or Dawn or Joyce or Jonathan to kill them -- because she's a human being and has the right to defend herself.

Gwendolyn Post isn't a viable example. Buffy intended to remove the glove, and did so with an attack that, while dangerous, doesn't *have* to be lethal -- I'm sure they'd have rushed Ms. Post to the hospital. Buffy had no way of knowing what would happen with the lightning, that's not on her. And, in point of fact, if she had wanted to *kill* Post, she'd have winged that glass into her chest, or taken her head off with it.

Before I come back to Nile and Nina's points, just wanted to get this down, a different random observation.

I was thinking about the Body Politic (the ancient or medieval idea that society is like a body, all the parts have to work together) and Buffy and about Buffy as a leader. But then I thought about this passage in Corinthians:

“For as the body is one, and hath
many members... so also is Christ.... And the eye
cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor
again the head to the feet, I have no need of you....
Now ye are the body of Christ and members in partic-
ular...” (I Corinthians 12:12-27).

Given Buffy's messianic imagery tendendcies... rather reminds me of the joining spell in season 4!


EDIT:



I think the feeling’s mutual on Buffy’s part – she doesn’t seem particularly interested in/curious about them. When asked about god she says there’s, “nothing solid” to be known about that, after all. The heaven she went to didn’t have anything to do with the PTBs, from her perspective at least.

Perhaps you might say that since the Powers are concerned with Destiny and Fate and all that, the people who aren’t as bound by fate just aren’t their concern? It’s not that Buffy’s not important, but she’s not part of the Grand Scheme of Things laid out by the PTB. However, perhaps the PTBs aren’t all-powerful, they’re just more powerful than most? And that humans can make their own destinies, if they’re not being meddled with all the time?

For a show conceived of and overseen by an atheist, there are a lot of implicitly Christian concepts in the Buffyverse. Not the least of which, obviously, is the fact that the Christian God, or at least faith in Him, has an objective metaphysical substance in the Buffyverse, experienced physically by vampires. But there are also multiple instances of providence in the Buffyverse, not always attributed directly to "The Powers That Be". Snow in "Amends", access to Kate's apartment in "Epiphany", for example. Then there's the nun who knows at a glance that Angel is a vampire in "I've Got You Under My Skin", Spike's apparent talk to God in "Beneath You", etc.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

For a show conceived of and overseen by an atheist, there are a lot of implicitly Christian concepts in the Buffyverse.

I guess part of that is the fact that so much of our (ie western/American/European…which is rather a big our now I think about it, and is it really one “our”? Maybe not.) culture, art, storytelling, music and so on is suffused with Christian imagery. I don’t know that much about Joss’s upbringing, but anyone who went to school in the UK and the US (which he did) would have been exposed to a lot of Christian ideas and literature along the way. So many dramatic concepts are linked in (heroic) storytelling to Christian narratives (whether they had pagan roots or not) – death and rebirth, sacrifice, redemption.

Not the least of which, obviously, is the fact that the Christian God, or at least faith in Him, has an objective metaphysical substance in the Buffyverse, experienced physically by vampires.

You mean that crosses and holy water burn? I always thought it was an unexplained maguffin thing really, not intended to be about God per se, but just how vampires have always been portrayed.


But there are also multiple instances of providence in the Buffyverse, not always attributed directly to "The Powers That Be". Snow in "Amends", access to Kate's apartment in "Epiphany", for example. Then there's the nun who knows at a glance that Angel is a vampire in "I've Got You Under My Skin", Spike's apparent talk to God in "Beneath You", etc.

Interestingly, Spike conflates God and Buffy in that speech. She is his divinity – his route to redemption – in a sense. His own personal Jesus (reach out and touch faith…not THAT faith, you naughty vampire ;))

The snow in Amends, though, that’s the one moment where there seemed to be a loving God of some kind in the Buffyverse. Or perhaps the PTBs in a good mood. On the whole, they don’t seem particularly benevolent.

[KingofCretins]

I guess part of that is the fact that so much of our (ie western/American/European…which is rather a big our now I think about it, and is it really one “our”? Maybe not.) culture, art, storytelling, music and so on is suffused with Christian imagery. I don’t know that much about Joss’s upbringing, but anyone who went to school in the UK and the US (which he did) would have been exposed to a lot of Christian ideas and literature along the way. So many dramatic concepts are linked in (heroic) storytelling to Christian narratives (whether they had pagan roots or not) – death and rebirth, sacrifice, redemption.

Other than that he said he was young when he "decided he had no faith" on the "Objects in Space" commentary, I don't know much about the religious background of Joseph Hill Whedon. I actually tend to attribute it to the sensabilities of his staff more than his own. 2nd law of thermodynamics applied to atheism in TV writing, if you will.

You mean that crosses and holy water burn? I always thought it was an unexplained maguffin thing really, not intended to be about God per se, but just how vampires have always been portrayed.

Yeah, but to dismiss it is to hold that part of the Buffyverse at arm's length -- it still is part of the metaphysics of the the Buffyverse, and one that goes essentially unchallenged. We only ever see vampires fight off that effect through force of will. Why it's in there isn't as significant as the fact that it is in there.

Interestingly, Spike conflates God and Buffy in that speech. She is his divinity – his route to redemption – in a sense. His own personal Jesus (reach out and touch faith…not THAT faith, you naughty vampire ;))

The snow in Amends, though, that’s the one moment where there seemed to be a loving God of some kind in the Buffyverse. Or perhaps the PTBs in a good mood. On the whole, they don’t seem particularly benevolent.

Another interesting and thoroughly unexplained instance was Willow getting her latin on in "Becoming, Part II".

Here's something I've wondered about -- the fact that Buffy came back in "Bargaining". Whether one wants to attribute it to the Powers or to God, I've never been able to shake (from my own learning) the notion that you can't just "take" someone out of heaven, no matter how many snakes come out of your mouth. Hell, maybe. Heaven, only by consent of the One in charge of it. So I've always attached a bit of purpose to the fact that Buffy was able to be brought back at all. Which is probably why I never really, really got into the "blaming the Scoobies for Buffy's trauma" side of it.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Aha so, following what I said in the Presidents thread...I don't have to leave yet...so, more on religion.

Other than that he said he was young when he "decided he had no faith" on the "Objects in Space" commentary, I don't know much about the religious background of Joseph Hill Whedon. I actually tend to attribute it to the sensabilities of his staff more than his own. 2nd law of thermodynamics applied to atheism in TV writing, if you will.

Why do you think it's more about the staff btw? Are some of them religious? I was just thinking of it in terms of the fact that you don't have to be religious to enjoy the metaphors and mythical structures of religion and to find power in them.


Yeah, but to dismiss it is to hold that part of the Buffyverse at arm's length -- it still is part of the metaphysics of the the Buffyverse, and one that goes essentially unchallenged. We only ever see vampires fight off that effect through force of will. Why it's in there isn't as significant as the fact that it is in there.

True, true. Then it's definitely a wrinkle in the agnosticism of the Buffyverse.
You'd think Willow would ask about it, wouldn't you? Inquiring minds like hers would want to know, surely?


Another interesting and thoroughly unexplained instance was Willow getting her latin on in "Becoming, Part II".

I thought that was the magicks, in the way that they take over sometimes when she's doing spells?


Heaven, only by consent of the One in charge of it. So I've always attached a bit of purpose to the fact that Buffy was able to be brought back at all. Which is probably why I never really, really got into the "blaming the Scoobies for Buffy's trauma" side of it.

That works if it's a Christian heaven. But if it's just one of many heavenly dimensions (as Tara says) that's part of a theology that's not Christian, it's still up to Willow and her snakes. Which...ooh, Willow and Snakes...it's always a thing, isn't it? Season 6...now season 8? Indiana Jones wouldn't like her much. :D

[litzie]

Other than that he said he was young when he "decided he had no faith" on the "Objects in Space" commentary, I don't know much about the religious background of Joseph Hill Whedon. I actually tend to attribute it to the sensabilities of his staff more than his own. 2nd law of thermodynamics applied to atheism in TV writing, if you will.

I dunno, I think of myself as being quite young when I decided I was agnostic (or...I decided I wasn't sure...then later I found out the term for it), but I grew up with a ton of christian imagery even before I went to a catholic university. So...

Yeah, but to dismiss it is to hold that part of the Buffyverse at arm's length -- it still is part of the metaphysics of the the Buffyverse, and one that goes essentially unchallenged. We only ever see vampires fight off that effect through force of will. Why it's in there isn't as significant as the fact that it is in there.

I always thought that the cross and holy water (and garlic, to whatever degree we've ever seen it used, namely when Buffy's trying not to have sex with Spike, but to be fair her thought process there could have been, if I smell bad enough, he won't want to have sex with me...) was the imposition that humanity put onto vampires. The ubervamps weren't affected by holywater or crosses...or the traditional need-an-invitation-to-come-in. I always interpreted this as, humanity dealt with the Demons Vampyre by putting them within their (christian) belief system, and belief is a powerful thing. The interaction between vampires and the people who believed they would be protected by god led to the place where vampires also believed it.

Of course, according to the slayer time line, vampires and slayers existed well before Christ - the Shadowmen are meant to be some kind of pre-history African tribal mages.

And since this is the random observation thread it has ALWAYS pissed me off greatly that the shadow men were evil and black, then the random good-magic scythe women were white with white hair. Blegh.

Another interesting and thoroughly unexplained instance was Willow getting her latin on in "Becoming, Part II".

Having just watched that episode, I was wondering about that part too. My wonderings were coming more from the perspective of, was Willow naturally talented in the witch arena, or did doing that spell when she was weakened by head injury allow something to take advantage kinda, to enter her, and was that what subsequently made witchcraft so easy for her?

[KingofCretins]

Aha so, following what I said in the Presidents thread...I don't have to leave yet...so, more on religion.



Why do you think it's more about the staff btw? Are some of them religious? I was just thinking of it in terms of the fact that you don't have to be religious to enjoy the metaphors and mythical structures of religion and to find power in them.

Then get back to work on the rest of your replies on that thread :)

I just assume, really. I don't know specifically that any of them are religious beyond the fact that, well, most people are. It's become almost routine to craft vampire mythologies in which the cross or holy water have no effect that there wouldn't have been any scrutiny of Joss' Buffyverse of any kind had he decided not to. Always seemed an odd choice, actually.


True, true. Then it's definitely a wrinkle in the agnosticism of the Buffyverse.
You'd think Willow would ask about it, wouldn't you? Inquiring minds like hers would want to know, surely?

To steal from "The Siege", it's never the question that's indiscreet, only the answer? It is fascinatingly persistent, though. Take the Knights of Byzantium and their clerics who were at least ostensibly Judeo-Christian -- they expected that, through prayer, they could penetrate Willow's shield (it never came up, since Glory did it herself), but, more notably, Willow thought they might, too. She didn't even question the credibility of their effort.

I always thought that the cross and holy water (and garlic, to whatever degree we've ever seen it used, namely when Buffy's trying not to have sex with Spike, but to be fair her thought process there could have been, if I smell bad enough, he won't want to have sex with me...) was the imposition that humanity put onto vampires. The ubervamps weren't affected by holywater or crosses...or the traditional need-an-invitation-to-come-in. I always interpreted this as, humanity dealt with the Demons Vampyre by putting them within their (christian) belief system, and belief is a powerful thing. The interaction between vampires and the people who believed they would be protected by god led to the place where vampires also believed it.

Of course, according to the slayer time line, vampires and slayers existed well before Christ - the Shadowmen are meant to be some kind of pre-history African tribal mages.

Actually, the Turok-han was scalded by holy water in "Showtime" when Buffy threw Andrew's bottle at it. Later, Anya briefs the Potentials that "holy water seems to run off these guys like they've been scotch-guarded", but I think that speaks more to the point that it doesn't *kill* them or even really stun them. But it did burn the thing, as shown here (http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/displayimage.php?pid=595626&fullsize=1).

And since this is the random observation thread it has ALWAYS pissed me off greatly that the shadow men were evil and black, then the random good-magic scythe women were white with white hair. Blegh.

Eh, I guess I can see that but... well, Africa. They're not going to be Japanese. Perhaps they could have gone with a wizened and serene Asian woman as the Guardian to keep it on a mulit-culti tip. But then, Caleb would have killed her and it would have been a whole other thing, probably.

Having just watched that episode, I was wondering about that part too. My wonderings were coming more from the perspective of, was Willow naturally talented in the witch arena, or did doing that spell when she was weakened by head injury allow something to take advantage kinda, to enter her, and was that what subsequently made witchcraft so easy for her?

That's actually a pretty cool theory. I've heard a dozen or more different versions of Willow being taken over in that scene, but that's the first time I've seen anyone draw a connection between that event and her later magical abilities. Wow, you know what would be bitchin'? If it was Saga Vasuki or her favored student that had done it. Retcon into AWESOMENESS.

[litzie]

Actually, the Turok-han was scalded by holy water in "Showtime" when Buffy threw Andrew's bottle at it. Later, Anya briefs the Potentials that "holy water seems to run off these guys like they've been scotch-guarded", but I think that speaks more to the point that it doesn't *kill* them or even really stun them. But it did burn the thing, as shown here (http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/displayimage.php?pid=595626&fullsize=1).

I guess I was thinking of Anya's line. Valid point, but I remain convinced of my belief theory, primarily because I like it (:)) but also because the point about christianity not existing at the time of the first vampires leads me to believe that it had to be a later adoption, and I really like the idea of belief shaping things. Kind of like how the way people see you affects your view of yourself, only magnified a hundred times. I always loved the idea in Terry Pratchett that gods were born out of human belief...the strength of belief then corresponding to the strength of the god. I like that as a mythology.

Eh, I guess I can see that but... well, Africa. They're not going to be Japanese. Perhaps they could have gone with a wizened and serene Asian woman as the Guardian to keep it on a mulit-culti tip. But then, Caleb would have killed her and it would have been a whole other thing, probably.
I don't think it had to be multi-cultural. I feel like the shadow men were african to show the age of the slayer...that she is part of humanity from the very dawn of humanity. But why not just have a wizened old black woman as the good guy? I think what annoyed me was that evil shadow men demon-rape a slayer at the dawn of time...but we have to wait through however much subsequent evolution before we get a white woman who can be a sign of empowerment? That pisses me off.

That's actually a pretty cool theory. I've heard a dozen or more different versions of Willow being taken over in that scene, but that's the first time I've seen anyone draw a connection between that event and her later magical abilities. Wow, you know what would be bitchin'? If it was Saga Vasuki or her favored student that had done it. Retcon into AWESOMENESS.

I am totally with you. that would be AWESOMENESS, capital letters required.

[KingofCretins]

I don't think it had to be multi-cultural. I feel like the shadow men were african to show the age of the slayer...that she is part of humanity from the very dawn of humanity. But why not just have a wizened old black woman as the good guy? I think what annoyed me was that evil shadow men demon-rape a slayer at the dawn of time...but we have to wait through however much subsequent evolution before we get a white woman who can be a sign of empowerment? That pisses me off.

*Shrug*. It's there to be found, but I find it mostly constructive. I never would have given it a thought until you mentioned it, so I don't think it can be that heavy-handed. And if you hate the gang-rape origin of female power, that's a white woman's fault *noxoncoughs* :)

I am totally with you. that would be AWESOMENESS, capital letters required.

Well, Kumiko did say that she had been following Willow's ascension for some time -- who's to say she wasn't there at the beginning of it?

That was a big spell she was pulling, it would have pinged the magic sonar out there, Vasuki takes interest in the spell, indifferent to what or why she's doing it, and arranges for a shove in the right direction at the key moment? It actually makes more sense that that be about Willow than about Angel, because, to be honest, it makes no sense for the Powers to help Willow right then, since Angel getting his soul back was irrelevant to the Acathla thing at that point.

I totally want to write Joss and beg him to build a throwaway reference to that into Season 8.

[NileQT87]

i've seen more than one fanfiction that's supposed that the old gypsy woman who originally did the curse was the one taking over willow (and the "nici mort, nici al fiinţei..." stuff is romanian, not latin). the voice that takes over is speaking romanian.

it could be either the spirit of the old gypsy woman or the god/goddess that she called on.

for kicks, here's the incantation (and i've actually tried to spellcheck it and bring in all the missing accents from the transcript version on the web--did the same in my personal transcript version of giles' greek in prophecy girl which also isn't right in the web transcript.):

Quod perditum est, invenietur,
Nici mort, nici al fiinţei,
Te invoc spirit al trecerii,
Gods, bind him, cast his heart from the evil realm,
Te implor, Doamne; nu ignoră aceasta rugăminte,
Lăsa orbită să fie vasul care-i vă transportă, sufletul la el,
Este scris, aceasta putere este dreptul poporul meu de a conduce,
Nici mort, nici al fiinţei,
te invoc, spirit al trecerii,
Redă trupului ce separe de animal,
Aşa să fie, utrespur acestui.
Aşa să fie! Aşa să fie!
Acum! Acum!

[litzie]

*Shrug*. It's there to be found, but I find it mostly constructive. I never would have given it a thought until you mentioned it, so I don't think it can be that heavy-handed. And if you hate the gang-rape origin of female power, that's a white woman's fault *noxoncoughs* :)
It's not the gang-rape I object to so much (though I don't like that), it's the fact that the answer to the gang-rape is a white woman centuries later. I just feel like it's...I don't know, like not only is it a bit racist along the lines of the old bad guys are black, good guys are white dichotomy, but also it's a bit sexist...like it took women millenia to progress to the point that they could oppose the council. Or...something. I don't know. Can't quite explain why it bugs me so much. Maybe it's mostly the fact that the whole device is so obviously forced that I find it really jarring, which makes me look on the meta level rather than the story level.


Well, Kumiko did say that she had been following Willow's ascension for some time -- who's to say she wasn't there at the beginning of it?

That was a big spell she was pulling, it would have pinged the magic sonar out there, Vasuki takes interest in the spell, indifferent to what or why she's doing it, and arranges for a shove in the right direction at the key moment? It actually makes more sense that that be about Willow than about Angel, because, to be honest, it makes no sense for the Powers to help Willow right then, since Angel getting his soul back was irrelevant to the Acathla thing at that point.

I totally want to write Joss and beg him to build a throwaway reference to that into Season 8.
I'd say that it would be Vasuki herself...maybe that was the goddess that the gypsy originally called on, and in re-using the spell she re-called on the goddess and kind of gave the goddess a portal into her (willow's) own magical power?

Also, and this more properly belongs in a season 8 thread but it is a random observation...I generally thought that the goddess that Willow thanks in Chosen is this same goddess...I mean, maybe there are lots of goddesses running around, but Willow's only ever mentioned the two, so...

[Michael]

"Nietzsche is dead"
God


I remember one film in which there was a Jewish vampire. When his lady victim thrust a crucifix in his face, he laughed saying: "Heh, heh, hef you got the wrong vampire!"

The Buffyverse is a spiritual as well as a material reality, or so it seems, and there seems to be a moral code in the sense that what is right or wrong is never an arbitrary matter anywhere. I would not have thought it would have been the product of an atheistic imagination, because atheism is a dogmatic religious position, whereas the Buffyverse is pluralistic.

There is a lot of Catholic imagery in BtVS, and I can imagine that vampires with their Gothic culture are quite attracted to the Catholic religion--up to point, anyway. They certainly take it more seriously than any other,so far as we are shown.

The Powers are not very impressive in a spiritual sense, and nor is anybody else come to think of it. There is nobody like Mother Theresa or even John Wayne. Are all the great religious traditions no more than rumors? I would like to see a compelling spiritual figure in the Buffyverse, but I suppose it would be too late, or too soon, right now.It seems obvious that Buffy needs to be taken in hand by some moral authority she can respect.

"Has Heisenberg been in today?"
"I'm not sure, old boy"

[Retrograde]

Just wanted to say I love this thread, so many tidbits of info that I'd previously overlooked or just not noticed!

I know it's common knowledge, but I love all the Dawn references before she comes in, I think even as far back as Season 2, although I can't bring up a specific quote. I love rewatching and when it just all slots into place, it's a real '...oh!!' moment :D:D

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Just nipping in but…heh, I was just going to post this! Or a similar reference:

I remember one film in which there was a Jewish vampire. When his lady victim thrust a crucifix in his face, he laughed saying: "Heh, heh, hef you got the wrong vampire!"

This may crop up in a few films but I remember it in Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein. When someone shows him the cross he’s all… “Eh (shrug), I’m JEWISH!”

EDIT: Moar!

I dunno, I think of myself as being quite young when I decided I was agnostic (or...I decided I wasn't sure...then later I found out the term for it), but I grew up with a ton of christian imagery even before I went to a catholic university. So...

Ditto. Though didn’t go to Catholic uni, steeped in Christian culture of various denonminations (I was soo close to getting confirmed but in the end, too lazy or busy climbing trees – the charitable explanation - to learn the stuff. It was a long book of stuff to learn for a 10 year old! It was gold though. I liked the book because it was gold).



Of course, according to the slayer time line, vampires and slayers existed well before Christ - the Shadowmen are meant to be some kind of pre-history African tribal mages.

Good point! Maybe before that slayers went at them with a burning bush, old testament style? It would be effective from the burning point of view even if the symbolism failed!

Or maybe the Christian god’s imagery took over from older gods? So, it used to be all about scaring off vampires with statues of zeus…? Or whatever Zeus’s symbol was.


Having just watched that episode, I was wondering about that part too. My wonderings were coming more from the perspective of, was Willow naturally talented in the witch arena, or did doing that spell when she was weakened by head injury allow something to take advantage kinda, to enter her, and was that what subsequently made witchcraft so easy for her?

Interesting theory about injury – I like the idea that it’s the moment when magic really starts to get its hold on her, because she’s in a place where she’s physically and perhaps mentally/emotionally weakened. Though, she does have her resolve face on. But she’s definitely vulnerable, and in need of power… so perhaps something – someone – or magic itself – comes in and gives her the strength she needs, but at a price. Very interesting idea indeed!




I just assume, really. I don't know specifically that any of them are religious beyond the fact that, well, most people are. It's become almost routine to craft vampire mythologies in which the cross or holy water have no effect that there wouldn't have been any scrutiny of Joss' Buffyverse of any kind had he decided not to. Always seemed an odd choice, actually.

I figured it was part of the campy side of Buffy – also, because it sets up a lot of potential jokes. I know if I was a comedy writer, I’d want it in there. But mainly for the imagery. The cross is a powerful symbol, whether or not you believe it has true religious significance. Like the greek myths – they resonate with culture, literature, film. But the other writers may well be religious of course.


To steal from "The Siege", it's never the question that's indiscreet, only the answer? It is fascinatingly persistent, though. Take the Knights of Byzantium and their clerics who were at least ostensibly Judeo-Christian -- they expected that, through prayer, they could penetrate Willow's shield (it never came up, since Glory did it herself), but, more notably, Willow thought they might, too. She didn't even question the credibility of their effort.

True – perhaps because Willow believes there might be many gods? She prays to a goddess…she acknowledges the power of other gods.. maybe she’s a polytheist?



That's actually a pretty cool theory. I've heard a dozen or more different versions of Willow being taken over in that scene, but that's the first time I've seen anyone draw a connection between that event and her later magical abilities. Wow, you know what would be bitchin'? If it was Saga Vasuki or her favored student that had done it. Retcon into AWESOMENESS.[/quote]

All I can say to that is.. YAY! I wish they’d included snake lady earlier. Instead of all the drugs nonsense. That would be indeed AWESOME. AWESOME!

Well, let’s believe it ourselves shall we? Retcon in our eyesocket and everyone’s invited :D

I guess I was thinking of Anya's line. Valid point, but I remain convinced of my belief theory, primarily because I like it (:)) but also because the point about christianity not existing at the time of the first vampires leads me to believe that it had to be a later adoption, and I really like the idea of belief shaping things. Kind of like how the way people see you affects your view of yourself, only magnified a hundred times. I always loved the idea in Terry Pratchett that gods were born out of human belief...the strength of belief then corresponding to the strength of the god. I like that as a mythology.

While I don’t share the Tezza love (except for Good Omens, obviously…oh, ok, and Equal Rites…and that one about fairies…ok, a few of them still have a lot of fondness…) I do like his idea about gods and their relationship to people. I can see that being something that would gel nicely with the Buffyverse. Ooh, anyone for crossover fanfic…? Rincewind comes to the Scoobies for help…? Or Buffy visits Ankh Morpork? Hee, Giles and the Librarian having a conversation….

Off topic even for a random thread huh?


But why not just have a wizened old black woman as the good guy?

Yeah, especially if she’s supposed to date from the same time and be linked to the Shadow Men in terms of being against them.


i've seen more than one fanfiction that's supposed that the old gypsy woman who originally did the curse was the one taking over willow (and the "nici mort, nici al fiinţei..." stuff is romanian, not latin). the voice that takes over is speaking romanian.

Ok, I’m properly into the snake theory now, but I also like this idea.

Michael said: The Buffyverse is a spiritual as well as a material reality, or so it seems, and there seems to be a moral code in the sense that what is right or wrong is never an arbitrary matter anywhere. I would not have thought it would have been the product of an atheistic imagination, because atheism is a dogmatic religious position, whereas the Buffyverse is pluralistic.

I always saw it as an agnostic universe, actually. Buffy’s answer in CWDP supports that – there’s “nothing solid” known about God, but he’s not a goner either. God is not dead, he’s just hiding behind a cloud (maybe).

There is a lot of Catholic imagery in BtVS, and I can imagine that vampires with their Gothic culture are quite attracted to the Catholic religion--up to point, anyway. They certainly take it more seriously than any other,so far as we are shown.

The old school vampires are more like Catholic or maybe Greek/Roman Orthodox types… more ritual and rote and order. To switch religions, Buffy suggests that Spike might be Jewish - “reform” (ok, it’s just a joke, but it does show his status in relation to the old school vampires.)

On a literal level, I assume that William would’ve been Church of England? Given the time and his relatively socially included status (which is threatened by him being a massive doofus rather than being “Other”, it seems).

But if the brotherhood of Aurelius is the Catholic/Orthodox side of religion, then Spike and Dru are definitely a splinter church.

I would like to see a compelling spiritual figure in the Buffyverse, but I suppose it would be too late, or too soon, right now.It seems obvious that Buffy needs to be taken in hand by some moral authority she can respect.

Jasmine, perhaps? The idea of Buffy being “taken in hand” goes against everything she represents for me. To put it in cat macro terms: DO NOT WANT!

But seriously, whatever mistakes Buffy’s making, she doesn’t need someone to make her behave like a good little girl. I’m sure she could use some guidance – someone to question her. But the idea of her needing a good spanking…noooo!

Well, unless it’s good fun spanking. ;)

[KingofCretins]

I figured it was part of the campy side of Buffy – also, because it sets up a lot of potential jokes. I know if I was a comedy writer, I’d want it in there. But mainly for the imagery. The cross is a powerful symbol, whether or not you believe it has true religious significance. Like the greek myths – they resonate with culture, literature, film. But the other writers may well be religious of course.

Xander shaking the cross to check the battery in "Dopplegangland" was a fine joke, but, again -- I don't think it's relevant if it was included only as a storytelling device. So was the fact that vampires dust, so they didn't have to have Act IV of every episode be the "hiding the bodies" part of the episode. To quote EA Sports -- "if it's in the game, it's in the game".

True – perhaps because Willow believes there might be many gods? She prays to a goddess…she acknowledges the power of other gods.. maybe she’s a polytheist?

Worst. Jewish girl. Ever?

All I can say to that is.. YAY! I wish they’d included snake lady earlier. Instead of all the drugs nonsense. That would be indeed AWESOME. AWESOME!

Well, let’s believe it ourselves shall we? Retcon in our eyesocket and everyone’s invited :D

I'm inclined to run with it unless it gets over-ridden.

Yeah, especially if she’s supposed to date from the same time and be linked to the Shadow Men in terms of being against them.

Yeah, I got nothing. The Guardian thing was honestly one of the lamest phlebotenum touches in the entire series to me. As was the scythe actually being in a stone.

I always saw it as an agnostic universe, actually. Buffy’s answer in CWDP supports that – there’s “nothing solid” known about God, but he’s not a goner either. God is not dead, he’s just hiding behind a cloud (maybe).

Buffy agnosticism and/or deism. But, noteworthy in that scene is that Holden apparently believes in God on *some* level ("[/i]... the devils also believe, and tremble[/i]."), since he instinctively claims to "defy Him and all His works."

The old school vampires are more like Catholic or maybe Greek/Roman Orthodox types… more ritual and rote and order. To switch religions, Buffy suggests that Spike might be Jewish - “reform” (ok, it’s just a joke, but it does show his status in relation to the old school vampires.)

On a literal level, I assume that William would’ve been Church of England? Given the time and his relatively socially included status (which is threatened by him being a massive doofus rather than being “Other”, it seems).

But if the brotherhood of Aurelius is the Catholic/Orthodox side of religion, then Spike and Dru are definitely a splinter church.

Well, Dru was Catholic in life; she was going to be a nun. I don't know from the idea of vampiric religion, though -- they really don't seem to have any organized religion. Even the Order of Aurelius struck me as more of a vampire Elks Lodge and not a church.

But seriously, whatever mistakes Buffy’s making, she doesn’t need someone to make her behave like a good little girl. I’m sure she could use some guidance – someone to question her. But the idea of her needing a good spanking…noooo!

Well, unless it’s good fun spanking. ;)

She has moral guidance around her now, actually. And hopefully spanking can be arranged :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Xander shaking the cross to check the battery in "Dopplegangland" was a fine joke, but, again -- I don't think it's relevant if it was included only as a storytelling device. So was the fact that vampires dust, so they didn't have to have Act IV of every episode be the "hiding the bodies" part of the episode. To quote EA Sports -- "if it's in the game, it's in the game".

Sure is. I find the status of something within the story does shift re how seriously I take it, or how much emphasis I put on it. For example, the whole Spike debacle at the end of season 6, the “plot twist” that he wanted to get his soul back… I tend to slightly skip over that because it’s rubbish!

I don’t feel the same way about crosses, given that they don’t disrupt the text (they don’t contradict other stuff) though. More that they seem like a grace note, something that adds to the religious atmosphere/imagry without confirming anything.


Worst. Jewish girl. Ever?

She’s certainly not the observant type, no. Shabat with the Rosenbergs was probably interrupted by vampiric activity a lot of the time.


I'm inclined to run with it unless it gets over-ridden.

Quite, a fair approach. :D



Yeah, I got nothing. The Guardian thing was honestly one of the lamest phlebotenum touches in the entire series to me. As was the scythe actually being in a stone.

I don’t mind the sword in the stone but I am with Xander when he’s talking about his eye – needs better jokes to justify it!


Buffy agnosticism and/or deism. But, noteworthy in that scene is that Holden apparently believes in God on *some* level ("[/i]... the devils also believe, and tremble[/i]."), since he instinctively claims to "defy Him and all His works."

After thinking about it, the Buffyverse isn’t agnostic, because we MEET gods. Glory is a god. Willow summons some Egyptian god I think when trying to get Tara back. So…it’s a polytheistic universe which contains hints of the existence of the Judaeo-Christian god but no actual cameo. I wish someone had commented on the crucifix thing now. Damn. Maybe they still will in season 8. Maybe I should write to Scott Allie :D


Well, Dru was Catholic in life; she was going to be a nun.

Yup. Which make her and Angelus a perfect lapsed couple. He has a thing about nuns…she’s a Potential Nun…it’s all gravy. :D


I don't know from the idea of vampiric religion, though -- they really don't seem to have any organized religion. Even the Order of Aurelius struck me as more of a vampire Elks Lodge and not a church.

It’s not a literal religion, but it’s the trappings of religion that I was interested in there – the fact that there’s something of a reformation/revolution in the ritual structure of the vampires in Sunnydale when Spike arrives. He’s Henry VIII :D (only not quite so lucky with the ladies…well, until After the Fall anyway)

She has moral guidance around her now, actually. And hopefully spanking can be arranged :)

Buffy having peer-guidance appeals a lot more. I’ve always liked that in Buffy… the way that they work together and learn from one another, not just from adult authority (though from that too)….but that adult authority also learns from them (Giles learns from Buffy too). Though that’s all gone to hell. Boo. Buffy and Giles, not in the happy place.

A spanking! A spanking! (there should always be more Holy Grail quotes in Buffy. More!)

EDIT: Thought I'd write a little fic about Willow's queries on the topic...

http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?p=234251#post234251

[Michael]

I think the Buffyverse is a pagan, polytheistic affair, in which the state of chaos resembles the world itself. Anyone from the classical world before the victory of Christianity would find it easy to understand.

Interestingly, Christianity seems to have a presence in the Buffyverse as it did in the centuries before Constantine. Will "the pale Galilean" conquer again? I doubt it actually.

Morally,however, we are at sea. The Powers strike me as morally ambivalent at best, as were the pagan gods of the classical world. The gods and demons, heroes and sorcerers and kings, seem engage in struggle for existence that goes on with end or larger meaning.

Of course there are the prophecies about the Earth, but I am not clear that changes on Earth will affect the rest of the Buffyverse.

[litzie]

Random Observation (having nothing to do with the discussion at hand): in Band Candy, when Buffy is filling in her answer booklet while Giles read the questions (at the beginning of the episode), none of the questions above have answer bubbles filled in! they're all empty. the props department was not on that.

[NileQT87]

wesley's book on astral projection in birthday is some latin manuscript about kings from castile, spain in 1284. wesley... not so sure that's the right information there.

Astral Projection
Anno Chriſti milleſimo ducenticſimo octogetimo quarto, indictione duodecimâ, rebus Caſtellæ propemodûm deſperatis ob diffidium inter partem Alfonſum nc San Etium filium; mortuus eſt Alfonſus menſe Apeili anno xtatis ſexazeſimo tertio, Hiſpali, ubi patre defunĉto regium inſigne ſuſceperati condito anteà reſlamento quo Alfonſumnc Ferdinandum Caldus... ſubſtitutos pogni heredes nominauitinc utto que ſine prole defunĉto, Philippum Galliæ Regem ad priores Caſtellæ Reges manerum genus referantem. Inter maximus Reges...

also, if you look at all the pages that you see in newspapers, books, etc... some of them are a real hoot. marcie ross' invisible assassination textbook is by far the winner for the greatest WTF? hilarity. most of the newspapers have a few paragraphs and then they repeat the same sections over and over again to fill up the page. and sometimes they verge off into a completely different topic.

marcie's textbook:

Chapter 11
Assassination and Infiltration
Case example 1: Radical cult leader as intended victim
August 2, 19XX. She's not a girl who misses much: She's well acquainted with the touch of a velvet hand like a lizard on a window pane. The man in the clouds with the multicolored mirrors on his hobnailed boots. Lying with his eyes as his hands are busy working overtime. A soap impression of his wife which he ate and donated to the national trust. 'I need a fix cause I'm going down, down to the bits that I left uptown'. Mother Superior jumped the gun. Joy is a hot revolver, yes it is. When I hold you in my arms and I feel my finger on your trigger, I know no one can do me no harm because Joy is a hot revolver, and he is afraid of the monkeys who are in possession of digital skeletons of Swiss cheese...

here's an example of how newspapers in sunnydale are rather random documents that go from andrew borba to some familial thing and recycling in the same article:

Sunnydale Press
Price 35¢
Five die in van accident
By Sandra Sorzano
Sunnydale Press Reporter
In a tragic accident yesterday, four adults and one child were killed.
This accident has led people to believe...
Fugitive Andrew Borba
Among the dead was Andrew Borba, whom the police sought for questioning in a double murder.
The driver lost control of his vehicle and slammed into a pole.
Services for the deceased will be held at Sunnydale Funeral Home.
Each count with which the ex-wife is charged represents a required visit that didn't occur. She said her husband was outside the house trying to get the girls to talk to him and allow him to take them to his home.
While he amended the compromise into a bill that would have required a minimum of five cent refundable deposit, the assembly and the senate will be the first time buyers. In brief the compromise calls for the creation of state-regulated recycling programs for all aluminum, glass and plastic containers.

when giles is reading the greek passage in the pergamum codex, he translates it, but does not finish what he reads. the greek he reads says, "the master shall rise such... shall be overcome".

'Ο Κύριος θα αυξηθεί τέτοιοι... θα νικηθεί.' 'The Master shall rise...' Yes, yes, this is it! 'The Master shall rise, and the Slayer...' My God!

[The_Narrator]

Heh, just noticed: Tom Lenk not only plays Andrew, but one of Harmony's vampire minions. Tee hee! AND he's on House! (S2 Ep6).

[Matt]

Not really major, but I noticed that in Same Time, Same Place nobody actually noticed that Buffy's diary or whatever Willow was looking through had fallen on the floor when they went to investigate the noise they heard, surely Buffy would remember if she dropped the thing before she went to the airport.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Something I just noticed (forgive me if I’m late to the party) is that the scene in season 8 (NFFY) where Faith holds Buffy under the water, and the cover that shows that…they both echo Buffy’s dream from “Consequences” in season 3. The dream that begins that ep has Buffy swimming underwater, trying to get to the surface, and being dragged down by Alan Finch. But when she does come to the surface, Faith is there, pushing her back down again.

In season 8, we see the drowning from Faith’s perspective, looking down into the water, while in season 3, we see it from Buffy’s point of view, with Faith looming above pushing her back down into the water. We also get to see Faith’s thoughts, what it means for her to want to kill Buffy, but how she’s able to pull herself back from that brink now.

On a verbal echo note, makes me think of Buffy’s, “I hate it when they drown me”. But people seem to do it rather often.

Also….was that dream in consequences one of Buffy’s prophecy dreams? Well, maybe not a prophecy, given that Alan Finch isn’t there in NFFY, and Faith doesn’t drown her. So I’m thinking more narrative, thematic prefiguration/echo.

[litzie]

That is REALLY cool. I definitely did not notice that! But it totally rocks. And in some ways, the S3 dream could be a prophesy dream, because many of her dreams don't come true in the absolute literal sense...just elements of them do.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

That is REALLY cool. I definitely did not notice that! But it totally rocks. And in some ways, the S3 dream could be a prophesy dream, because many of her dreams don't come true in the absolute literal sense...just elements of them do.

Yeah – the prophetic element could be the “drowning” scene in season 8. Perhaps it could also be prophetic in the looser sense, of their shifting power balance, and how Faith deposes Buffy (passively) in season 7, or takes her place with Giles in season 8? Killing her metaphorically.

[icecreamkiller]

In Bring on the Night, Spike seems to forget that he doesn't have to breathe, so there was really no point in struggling with the ubervamp when his head was being held underwater...

Yeah – the prophetic element could be the “drowning” scene in season 8. Perhaps it could also be prophetic in the looser sense, of their shifting power balance, and how Faith deposes Buffy (passively) in season 7, or takes her place with Giles in season 8? Killing her metaphorically.

That's a very interesting idea. I always imagined Buffy's dream in Consequences was nothing more than a dream (ie not a vision, just her mind's way of representing Faith forcing her into something difficult and painful that she shouldn't have to deal with in the first place - killing Alan), or in the case that it was a vision, it was just a vision foreseeing Faith's turn to the dark side. But now that you mention it, I can definitely see the parallels. Very cool.

[NileQT87]

buffy's drowning imagery is seen in prophecy girl, bad girls, consequences and no future for you. it's definitely a motif.

[Revan]

Having just watched that episode, I was wondering about that part too. My wonderings were coming more from the perspective of, was Willow naturally talented in the witch arena, or did doing that spell when she was weakened by head injury allow something to take advantage kinda, to enter her, and was that what subsequently made witchcraft so easy for her?

Love that thought you just reminded me of something. Thank you lots. Oh and Litzie it is I've said this in another thread but I know how s8 will end. It was in a essay written by one of the writers. And also a essay written on each of the characters. I only read Willow's. This is what I remember and i haven't read the comics

Damn right to your imbued with evil power theory. The power that Willow has later on is due solely to being imbued with a evil force. Remember before how little power she had. And how her eyes and hair turn black? It's the power asserting itself?. She ends up losing it of course and has a fight sometime with amy without her magic and has to use science to win

Won't say the rest of what I remember.

[Nina]

After the last issue of Angel: ATF, it hit me that a lot of the characters is very smart. And to be honest, I think that it's a bit over the top.

Buffy:
street smart, but in season 3 she had an amazing SAT-score. Which is probably not just luck.

Willow:
One of the two students who was selected by a big company, smartest girl of her class etc. And she could pick any university she could.

Giles:
He is a watcher, I think that says enough. He is the smart older person in the series.

Cordelia:
To quote the queen herself; "I was top 10% of my class!". Besides, we saw how quickly she can learn. And you can't enter Columbia or Dukes with just looking pretty.

Oz:
The other selected student, spends less time with schoolwork than Willow and to quote Willow; "A-and you're practically a genius. You're Mr. Test Scores."

Angel:
Also very intelligent, speaks various languages, well-read, big picture thinking ...learns very quick and has a photographic memory. And according to Wesley; smarter than Wesley.

Wesley:
Watchers are smart, Wesley is smarter. He was headboy, the golden kid ... knows facts out of his head where Giles needs books, understands Fred's physics speech ...

Fred:
One of the best students of UCLA, knows a lot of chemistry, physics, biology, math and is very technical ... she can built weapons, radars etc.

Connor:
Connor had a 'Top tenth percentile', which is according his mom a big deal (I've no idea what it means). And we all know that he could do what Willow could, picking any university he wants ... and he went to Stanford.

Spike:
Not booksmart, but showes that he knows a lot about fighting, weapons and magic. Also his tactics to bring Buffy down were smart.

Darla:
Showed more than once to be the brain behind the other three ... and I doubt that you can keep Angelus with you when you are not just as smart ... and Darla showed that she was just as smart, if she wasn't smarter.

Gunn:
Looked like the guy who was the fightmachine, but since he is a vampire ... he became an evil mastermind. He plans everything, has interesting ways to bring slayers down and knows more than team Angel.

Andrew:
Is there for the laughs, but showed more than once that he is sneeky, smart ... only his knowledge isn't always the most important knowledge.

Riley:
Good student, helped with lessons ... high position in the army. Tactical very strong.

Dawn:
Loves learning, went to Berkeley ... another university where you don't walk in with bad scores.

Which brings us back to the people which aren't called on their IQ in the series ... Doyle (who was a teacher, before the drinking and dirty buisiness.), Xander (Who is tactical very strong and is everything but stupid), Anya (Very well with money, and surviving for more than 1000 years ..), Lorne (can understand humans very well, lots of mysical knowledge ...), Joyce (had her own business), Tara and Nina (went both to a university ... but never real comments about their IQ), Robin (Principal ... you probably need brains for that job) and Jenny who was also a teacher ...
Only Faith (as far as I can remember) was never in the spotlights because of her knowledge or IQ ...

[Michael]

When we meet Faith she has had virtually no formal education. She has been raised with no moral framework and the Council gave her no sense of her human value except as a Slayer. Yet her guilt and her struggle for redemption suggest the reality of an inbuilt moral compass. Somehow that compass will get her home.

[lara]

I don't know if this is really important thing but thought I'll comment about it anyway. I'm starting to watch Angel season 1 for the first time, I didn't care for it until season 3, and today I watched the famous "I will remember you", beautiful episode by the way it almost made me cry, anyway it caught my attention that Buffy, in the day that she gets to spend with human angel, is dressed in black pants, a black camisole and an almost see-through long sleve white shirt, pretty much the same outfit she wore in another emotive episode three seasons later: "Touched".

[Theresa Marie86]

One thing that took me forever to notice was in "Gone" when Invisible Buffy whistles "Going Through the Motions" when she leaves the social workers' office. It honestly just clicked it my head when I watched the episode last spring. That makes it, what, 5 years later. lol

Man that one is awesome! i wouldve never noticed that one! Good catch!

In I robot, you jane one of the computer geeks is looking at a profile of buffy the first time it shows her profile she is one age and is born one year, the next time it shows it.. maybe less than a minute later the dates are completly different and she even goes from a junior to a senior!.. Check it out!

This part may or may not be on topic but, in the episode "surprise" everyone is at the warehouse for buffy's birthday, and that is the first and last episode where everyone in the gang has a date at the same time. I know that is the weirdest observation ever.. but its something i've noticed.

[missperoxide]

A very random observation: last time we see Spike with his nails painted black is in Intervention. In Spiral when they're in the RV we see that the paint has started to wear off and in The Weight of the World when he lights his cigarette in the hospital we see no more nail varnish.

And another one: James Marsters appears first time in the starting credits as main character in 4.07 The Initiative.

[Ginny]

Connor:
Connor had a 'Top tenth percentile', which is according his mom a big deal (I've no idea what it means).

basically means (i think) that he was in the top 10% of his class - smarter than the other 90%

Something i noticed the other day which i thought was a nice piece of continuity by the props/wardrobe department was that at the end of Entropy when Willow and Tara are in the bedroom getting back together you can see Willows dress that she wore in Once More With Feeling hanging on the back of her door.

[kassyopeia]

I was just watching Innocence for the like hundredth time and I noticed something I'd never seen before.

In the scene when Angelus appears to Willow and Xander in the school hall and Buffy appears behind him, he kisses her and then throws her to the ground next to a bust on a plinth. There is a brass plaque on the plinth and it reads "In memoriam of Principal Robert..." (you can't see the surname), so I have deduced that it is for Principal Flutie on the basis that he was eaten in the previous season and the "All the kids here are free to call me Bob" line from the first episode.
Yes, you're correct. The bust makes a prominent appearance in "School Hard" and is mentioned in the script:

CORDELIA AND WILLOW

Run for their lives in the opposite direction Buffy went, towards the SOUTH
EXIT where Vampire # 2 leaps out, gets a hold of Cordelia who screams.
Willow grabs the heavy bust of Flutie, clocks him with it, they cut left,
down the SOUTH HALL. Lean Boy sees them, gives chase.

In Bring on the Night, Spike seems to forget that he doesn't have to breathe, so there was really no point in struggling with the ubervamp when his head was being held underwater...
Actually, that part can be somewhat justified from classic vampire lore (if the writers knew that or just blundered is a different question, of course). Traditionally, vampires cannot cross and can be drowned in running water, such as a river. Tolkien adopted that aspect for the Nazgul in "Lord of the Rings".
Connor:
Connor had a 'Top tenth percentile', which is according his mom a big deal (I've no idea what it means).basically means (i think) that he was in the top 10% of his class - smarter than the other 90%
I suppose it could mean that (read as (top tenth) percentile), but from the context it's pretty clear that it means that he's in the top 0.1% (read as top (tenth percentile)).

This may just be me being incredibly slow, but I've only just now understood why Willow gets duplicated in "Doppelgangland". The idea is that the spell will fetch whatever is represented by the thing the sand falls on. The sand was supposed to fall on the plate, representing the necklace. Instead, it falls on Willow's hand, and Willow represents VampWillow.

I assume the mini-crossover between "City Of" and "The Freshman" is common knowledge?

[†DarkWillow†]

It's funny, I was watching "The Freshmen" a few minutes ago and right at the part where Buffy and Willow are going into the place to buy books for their classes, Buffy is talking sarcastically about what her mom's reaction to the bill for all her books is going to be. And she says "I hope it's a funny ANEURYSM."
I thought that was kind of cool seeing as her mom actually dies of one in the next season.
I never noticed that, but when I heard that just a minute ago, I just thought "OH MY GOSH! UNKNOWN FORESHADOWING!!" Haha.
I doubt that Joss planned for that to happen, but it's still pretty awesome, if you ask me. :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

In "Same Time, Same Place", when Buffy helps Willow with the healing spell, she says:

BUFFY: I got so much strength, I'm giving it away.

This Willow/Buffy strength-sharing scene, and her line, totally sets up the season finale (and season 8). I'd never really noticed that before. The seeds of the end are contained here. :D

[Vampire in Rug]

I always liked how Tucker's pressence was felt even though he was only appeared in one episode.

Tucker was originally supposed to be in the trio instead of Andrew, however the actor couldn't do it and so the character of Andrew was created to be Tucker's brother. Nobody could remember Andrew's name in the early days, so everyone reffered to him as "Tucker's brother". Buffy even refferences Tucker when speaking with Spike, and Spike has never even met Tucker!

[NileQT87]

also, tucker wells was played by brad kane, who was the singing voice of disney's aladdin. he also was the singing voice of jonathan in superstar--another connection to his place as sort of the missing 4th member of the nerd trio.

[kassyopeia]

I dunno if this is online anywhere... frame-by-frame legend of the "Previously" montage of "The Gift":

{first frame}{last frame} episode number - episode title
{000097}{000303} 1x01 - Welcome To The Hellmouth
{000303}{000316} 1x02 - The Harvest
{000316}{000329} 1x01 - Welcome To The Hellmouth
{000329}{000340} 1x03 - Witch
{000340}{000352} 1x04 - Teacher's Pet
{000352}{000367} 1x05 - Never Kill A Boy On The First Date
{000367}{000379} 1x06 - The Pack
{000379}{000412} 1x07 - Angel
{000412}{000422} 1x09 - The Puppet Show
{000422}{000432} 1x10 - Nightmares
{000432}{000512} 1x12 - Prophecy Girl
{000512}{000522} 2x01 - When She Was Bad
{000522}{000528} 2x02 - Some Assembly Required
{000528}{000542} 2x03 - School Hard
{000542}{000550} 2x04 - Inca Mummy Girl
{000550}{000556} 2x05 - Reptile Boy
{000556}{000563} 2x06 - Halloween
{000563}{000571} 2x08 - The Dark Age
{000571}{000579} 2x09 - What's My Line, Part 1
{000579}{000590} 2x10 - What's My Line, Part 2
{000590}{000594} 2x11 - Ted
{000594}{000598} 2x12 - Bad Eggs
{000598}{000602} 2x13 - Surprise
{000602}{000614} 2x14 - Innocence
{000614}{000618} 2x15 - Phases
{000618}{000622} 2x16 - Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered
{000622}{000630} 2x17 - Passion
{000630}{000634} 2x18 - Killed By Death
{000634}{000638} 2x19 - I Only Have Eyes For You
{000638}{000642} 2x20 - Go Fish
{000642}{000646} 2x21 - Becoming, Part 1
{000646}{000664} 2x22 - Becoming, Part 2
{000664}{000668} 3x01 - Anne
{000668}{000672} 3x02 - Dead Man's Party
{000672}{000678} 3x03 - Faith, Hope And Trick
{000678}{000681} 3x04 - Beauty And The Beasts
{000681}{000684} 3x05 - Homecoming
{000684}{000687} 3x06 - Band Candy
{000687}{000691} 3x08 - Lover's Walk
{000691}{000694} 3x07 - Revelations
{000694}{000697} 3x08 - Lover's Walk
{000697}{000700} 3x09 - The Wish
{000700}{000704} 3x10 - Amends
{000704}{000707} 3x11 - Gingerbread
{000707}{000710} 3x13 - The Zeppo
{000710}{000716} 3x15 - Consequences
{000716}{000723} 3x16 - Doppelgangland
{000723}{000726} 3x17 - Enemies
{000726}{000729} 3x18 - Earshot
{000729}{000732} 3x20 - The Prom
{000732}{000736} 3x21 - Graduation, Part 1
{000736}{000748} 3x22 - Graduation, Part 2
{000748}{000753} 4x01 - The Freshman
{000753}{000760} 4x02 - Living Conditions
{000760}{000765} 4x03 - The Harsh Light Of Day
{000765}{000767} 4x02 - Living Conditions
{000767}{000782} 4x04 - Fear Itself
{000782}{000784} 4x05 - Beer Bad
{000784}{000792} 4x06 - Wild At Heart
{000792}{000796} 4x07 - The Initiative
{000796}{000799} 4x08 - Pangs
{000799}{000801} 4x09 - Something Blue
{000801}{000804} 4x08 - Pangs
{000804}{000813} 4x10 - Hush
{000813}{000816} 4x11 - Doomed
{000816}{000821} 4x12 - A New Man
{000821}{000826} 4x13 - The I In Team
{000826}{000831} 4x14 - Goodbye Iowa
{000831}{000836} 4x15 - This Year's Girl
{000836}{000843} 4x16 - Who Are You
{000843}{000845} 4x17 - Superstar
{000845}{000855} 4x18 - Where The Wild Things Are
{000855}{000857} 4x19 - New Moon Rising
{000857}{000860} 4x20 - The Yoko Factor
{000860}{000885} 4x21 - Primeval
{000885}{000890} 4x22 - Restless
{000890}{000891} 5x01 - Buffy vs. Dracula
{000891}{000895} 5x02 - Real Me
{000895}{000896} 5x04 - Out Of My Mind
{000896}{000898} 5x03 - The Replacement
{000898}{000899} 5x04 - Out Of My Mind
{000899}{000904} 5x05 - No Place Like Home
{000904}{000906} 5x06 - Family
{000906}{000907} 5x04 - Out Of My Mind
{000907}{000908} 5x08 - Shadow
{000908}{000910} 5x09 - Listening To Fear
{000910}{000911} 5x06 - Family
{000911}{000915} 5x10 - Into The Woods
{000915}{000916} 5x13 - Blood Ties
{000916}{000917} 5x11 - Triangle
{000917}{000918} 5x12 - Checkpoint
{000918}{000919} 5x11 - Triangle
{000919}{000920} 5x13 - Blood Ties
{000920}{000921} 5x13 - Blood Ties
{000921}{000923} 5x15 - I Was Made To Love You
{000923}{000925} 5x16 - The Body
{000925}{000927} 5x18 - Intervention
{000927}{000931} 5x19 - Tough Love
{000931}{000937} 5x20 - Spiral

[kassyopeia]

I'd never have noticed this if it weren't mentioned in the script (from "Tabula Rasa"):

But just as she's about to say it, the front door bangs open and
SPIKE comes flying in. He's flushed and panting and dressed in the
TWEEDY-SUIT he wore in "Restless" and a HAT WITH EARFLAPS.

The suits look indeed the same, as far as I can tell, the main difference being a tie vs a bowtie. Anyone wanna go fishing for deeper meaning here?

ETA: Oh, right, it's even mentioned on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rasa_(Buffy_episode)#Trivia). Never mind me. :)

[The_Narrator]

I thought the meaning of the scene was just a nice nod to Restless, where Spike was becoming a Watcher under Giles' tutelage, and in Tabula Rasa, Spike believes himself to be Giles' son. And the difference between the tie and bowtie? I don't think of it as being anything more than that they mislaid the original after Restless. :D

[kassyopeia]

I thought the meaning of the scene was just a nice nod to Restless, where Spike was becoming a Watcher under Giles' tutelage, and in Tabula Rasa, Spike believes himself to be Giles' son.
I was thinking of an in-universe meaning, about the fact that the suit Xander dreams about turns out to actually exist, when I posted. But I'm pretty sure that, as you say, it's solely for the audience's benefit. :)

[litzie]

I think it also adds to the dreamlike quality of Tabula Rasa...

Though, speaking of clothing from Restless...I thought the other day when I was watching the Freshman that Buffy was wearing the same dress that she wears in restless, and I was all excited, thinking I had this great random observation! But it's not the same dress. So this is a vaguely pointless paragraph. It is really close though. :)

[kassyopeia]

I think it also adds to the dreamlike quality of Tabula Rasa...
The thing I can't figure out is the shark connection between the two episodes. I mean, the tweed suit is very arbitrary in "Tabula Rasa", so this definitely seems to have been added when someone noticed the Giles-Spike-relationship parallel, but the shark metaphor ("moving forward like a shark"/"loan shark") fits so naturally into both episodes that one could almost suspect it's pure coincidence. Which would make it all the cooler, of course. :)

[vampmogs]

Speaking of season four and 'Restless.' Anyone else think the bag Buffy has at her feet, which is full with the primal face paint she puts on, is strikingly similar in resemblance to that of the slayer bag Wood hands down to Buffy in 'Get It Done.'?

I think that's really cool, it's unlikely but they are very similar. And it makes sense, Buffy opens up that bag and puts on the gooey face paint, she embodies the primal warrior within. In season seven the bag is revealed to be a slayer keep sake, and contains the secrets of how the slayer was created in primordial times.

Plus, in that scene during 'Restless' Buffy says "we're not demons" and Riley calls her a killer, she's questioning her slayer roots and what it means to be the slayer. In 'Get It Done' she finds out a demon essence was the root of the slayers power.

I think it's nifty, it's got great connections and even if it wasn’t intentional, which I don’t believe it was given the lazy crapfest of season seven writing, it’s still so similar that a fan can fanwank it and pull it off as a big connection .

[kassyopeia]

Speaking of season four and 'Restless.' Anyone else think the bag Buffy has at her feet, which is full with the primal face paint she puts on, is strikingly similar in resemblance to that of the slayer bag Wood hands down to Buffy in 'Get It Done.'?
You know, I've always thought that too, but after not finding it mentioned in the scripts, I can't really figure out why I ever though that. The bag in "Restless" is just Buffy's weapons storage bag which we see several times in the season, e.g. in "Living Conditions" (when Kathy steals Buffy's sweater) and "The Initiative" (when Willow tries to hide it from Riley under Buffy's bed):

BUFFY
No wait… I have weapons…

She reaches into her bag.

INSERT: HER BAG

is filled with mud.

The one in "Get It Done" is brown, not black, and a different shape too:

He lifts and places a worn old leather SATCHEL (like an old- fashioned
doctor's bag) upon Buffy's desk.

Plus, in that scene during 'Restless' Buffy says "we're not demons" and Riley calls her a killer, she's questioning her slayer roots and what it means to be the slayer. In 'Get It Done' she finds out a demon essence was the root of the slayers power.
That connection is quite safe, I'd say, because the "rooted in darkness" thing that's fully explored in "Get It Done" is a strong theme in "Buffy vs. Dracula", which is very closely linked to "Restless".

[Arashmaharr]

I think this would be a blooper but couldn't find a thread for those. :s

In Season 5's 'Blood Ties', after Dawn has ran away and Buffy is at The Magic Box, talking about the diaries that have been burned, Willow starts to talk about how long Dawn kept them for, and Buffy finishes, saying she started them when she was seven, 'I remember too'. But Willow wouldn't know this; not unless they had a conversation about it, but the Summers' didn't move to Sunnydale until Dawn was 9.

[icecreamkiller]

Willow might not remember 7-year-old and 8-year-old Dawn keeping the diaries, but saying she started keeping them when she was seven implies that Willow would have seen 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14-year-old Dawn writing on them.

[kassyopeia]

Never noticed this before: In "Selfless", when Buffy and Xander come back home from killing the spidery demony thingy, Buffy carries that huge axe she used. There's a small-ish bowl on the dresser next to the door, the sort many people have and into which they drop their keys first thing when entering their home. Instead, Buffy puts the huge axe into, or rather across the top of, that bowl.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this well, but it looks just so incongruous and funny. :roll:

[kassyopeia]

JONATHAN/FIRST
Show me the gun.

ANDREW
Oh. Here.

Andrew picks up a paper bag and opens it so Jonathan can look inside
(without touching the bag) -- the gun is there.

ANDREW (cont'd)
Willow tried shooting Kennedy with that.

Just in case I'm not the only one who missed it - there's a pun here.

[litzie]

Kassy I do not get your pun.

So I was watching Superstar last night, and it occurred to me that it was a completely necessary episode! I mean, I've always liked it but I know a lot of people find it annoying/pointless. But it was necessary (not to find out about adam's nuclear core, because, boring, even if it did matter later) because it introduced the idea of magic (or something) completely altering the world and inserting a person into a place they don't belong. Basically, it set us up as an audience to be able to accept Dawn as something they were going to subsequently (eventually) explain. It made Dawn possible as a device.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Kassy I do not get your pun.

I think she means JFK?

So I was watching Superstar last night, and it occurred to me that it was a completely necessary episode! I mean, I've always liked it but I know a lot of people find it annoying/pointless. But it was necessary (not to find out about adam's nuclear core, because, boring, even if it did matter later) because it introduced the idea of magic (or something) completely altering the world and inserting a person into a place they don't belong. Basically, it set us up as an audience to be able to accept Dawn as someth