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View Full Version : Cursed Angel didn’t ‘make the choice’ to be a ‘good vampire’



MikeB
26-11-13, 03:01 AM
* Angel wanted to stay with Darla. Angel wanted to continue being evil. The curse prevented him from being someone who could eat babies.

Plus, if Long Night’s Journey is still canon, Angel’s soul is from a champion warrior.

Edit: This is something that was discussed here: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19162&page=18


* Angel after 1898 and 1900 it seems wasn’t doing good, and when he did he was forced into it (WWII) and at the Hyperion when he initially helps that girl. Of course, even in these instances, he could have dusted Lawson and didn’t and he allowed the demon to kill all the people in the hotel.


* Whistler shows Buffy to Angel and – aside from whatever influence Twilight had – Angel decides to “be someone, someone be counted” because he wants to be with the underage girl. That’s not ‘making the choice’ of wanting to be a ‘good vampire’ so much as it is his wanting to be someone Buffy would want to have sex with.


* Plus, of course, the only reason Angel ‘can’ be ‘good’ is because he was cursed.

KingofCretins
26-11-13, 03:13 AM
You still on this silly kick about Buffy being underage as though 16 and 17 year olds having sex with people of various ages of minority or majority isn't a trope of normality in all young adult television both then and now?

Regardless, if you lend credence to Burke, the choice to be "someone that counted", to help in a heroic cause, etc, by aiding Buffy is the choice to be "good" -- because all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Or, to be more trite, "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem". In either light, Angel did choose the good when Whistler sought him out. Of course, this was manipulation with ulterior motives, but it doesn't negate the subjective value of Angel's choice.

MikeB
17-12-13, 10:13 AM
You still on this silly kick about Buffy being underage Statutory rape isn't "silly". Buffy was a naive inexperienced underage virgin.

Angel chose to be 'good' so that he could date and have sex with Buffy. It wasn't merely to 'help her'.

Also, Buffy was the Slayer for a year before Angel even first introduced himself to Buffy. Angel didn't help with the vampire problem in Los Angeles or with Lothos. Angel didn't help her stop the Harvest or help her fight the Master.

Over in AtS S1-4, most of that could be because of Jasmine. Afterward, Angel does stuff like work for Wolfram & Hart, be AngelTwilight, etc.

KingofCretins
17-12-13, 02:21 PM
Statutory rape isn't "silly". Buffy was a naive inexperienced underage virgin.

No, your outrage about it as depicted on TV is silly, because I don't believe for an instant that you care beyond it having been Angel. Nor can I take seriously the notion that you believe that Buffy herself was not subjectively able to consent to sex, regardless of the statute. And again, that it's worth arguing about since Buffy herself was committing some pretty serious crimes with regard to her handling of human remains if you want to be exactingly literal. Upshot? As long as you're here flogging "Surprise"/"Innocence" as statutory rape, I'll be here laughing about it :)


Also, Buffy was the Slayer for a year before Angel even first introduced himself to Buffy. Angel didn't help with the vampire problem in Los Angeles or with Lothos. Angel didn't help her stop the Harvest or help her fight the Master.

What does this have to do with my point? Seems like pretext to just throw Angel under the bus in contexts in which it is not actually deserved.


Over in AtS S1-4, most of that could be because of Jasmine. Afterward, Angel does stuff like work for Wolfram & Hart, be AngelTwilight, etc.

If you want to play that game, every act by every character that even tangentially might have helped move pieces into place for Jasmine to come could be blamed on Jasmine. Spike and Dru showing up in Sunnydale in the first place, for instance, or him returning in Season 3, or him pursuing the Gem of Amara. Anything that brought him into Angel's path might have actually been caused by Jasmine, and suddenly we've taken Spike's agency away from him by the same argument.

Gemini9857
17-12-13, 10:49 PM
I've never really understood why all these vampires shows/movies have a centuries old vampire lusting after a 16/17-year old high school girl. I'd be nice if for once the girl was in college or something for a change.

What I've never really understood is that once Willow learned how to do the curse she never bothered to give any other vampire a soul. She re-cursed Angel twice but she never bothered to do it to anyone else. I also thought it was odd that the gypsies only ever cursed Angel and never bothered to do it any other vampire.

MikeB
21-01-14, 09:39 AM
KingofCretins

* It is fact that Angel statutorily raped Buffy. It is fact that had the police been informed of the matter that Angel would have been thrown in prison.


Nor can I take seriously the notion that you believe that Buffy herself was not subjectively able to consent to sex, regardless of the statute. Buffy was a naïve inexperienced virgin. Beyond that, she decided to have sex with Angel when she did because of reasons such as ‘at some point, sex is the next stage in a relationship’ and she wants to have sex before she dies, which for her could be any day. Subjectively, had Buffy known about the perfect happiness clause, she wouldn’t have had sex with Angel and probably wouldn’t have dated him.


* Angel isn’t a corpse. He’s a vampire.


Upshot? As long as you're here flogging "Surprise"/"Innocence" as statutory rape, I'll be here laughing about it California law says its statutory rape and therefore it is. Statutory rape isn’t considered a ‘laughing matter’ in California. It puts people in prison. Those people have to register as sex offenders. Etc.


My quote: “Also, Buffy was the Slayer for a year before Angel even first introduced himself to Buffy. Angel didn't help with the vampire problem in Los Angeles or with Lothos. Angel didn't help her stop the Harvest or help her fight the Master.”

What does this have to do with my point? Seems like pretext to just throw Angel under the bus in contexts in which it is not actually deserved. Huh? So, Angel not risking himself for Buffy and for the world is perfectly okay with you? The point is that Angel only decided to be good because he wanted to have sex with Buffy. And that happened around 98 years after being cursed.


* Regarding Jasmine, Skip only mentions Jasmine affecting things in the Fang Gang’s lives. He easily could have mentioned others and didn’t.



Gemini9857

* The Scoobies know what Angel is like when cursed and Buffy loves him. Most vampires are simply dust-worthy. Spike was chipped and had already been pivotal in saving the world.


* The Gypsies cursed Angel because of what Angel did to their ‘favorite daughter’.

Stoney
21-01-14, 10:46 PM
I've never really understood why all these vampires shows/movies have a centuries old vampire lusting after a 16/17-year old high school girl. I'd be nice if for once the girl was in college or something for a change.

The teen lust thing I think is just to create the modern equivalent of the virginal beauty in her chaste gown that dracula thralls into opening her bedroom window in the old vamp movies. If you want the innocence/darkness lusty contrasts then in this day and age the images are going to focus on those around legal age to promote that air of assumed innocence because it is no longer achieved just by virtue of being an unwed maiden!!


What I've never really understood is that once Willow learned how to do the curse she never bothered to give any other vampire a soul. She re-cursed Angel twice but she never bothered to do it to anyone else. I also thought it was odd that the gypsies only ever cursed Angel and never bothered to do it any other vampire.

I think the reason they don't generally curse all vamps is because they would have to go wholesale for Orbs!!

It is a funny one really because the 'natural' creature is the unsouled vampire. The human soul goes with the death of the body and so calling it back is as much a warping of the vampire as the demon animating the human body in the first place was. But through all iterations the trace/essence/traits of the original human are part and parcel of the vampire souled or not. If we use the resired Darla as an example you could even argue that the original human is the dominating component and the demon is almost an infection that heightens aspects of their personality, suppresses guilt insecurities etc or she would have been changed by a 'new' vampire demon taking over when Dru resired her.

Personally I make no distinction between souled vampires and humans, in a right to live/unlive sense, but there is an issue of justice/containment. And that is the same problem in the scenario where society knows about vampires and they are allowed to play as long as they don't bite. Although it seems foolish imo to assume by default that all those that say they are playing ball are in fact doing so because of the nature of the unsouled beast. So the problem is, how do you incarcerate a vampire and for how long even if you could? There is a practicality to accepting vampires/demons and a justice structure would have to be formed if it was ever to be a functioning reality. Because souled vamps, like human, are still capable of doing bad acts, this is true even if you started cursing numerous vampires with souls because it is no guarantee that they will be 'good' and yet they are still superpowered. A couple of unique cases are easy to ignore with a conviction that they are fighting on the right team but it is a very potentially flawed situation narratively unless you have a way of drawing the line somehow. AtS explored the greys and Angel took decisions that the human world would imprison people for but the story doesn't draw a line and I think that this being accepted but unexplored as an issue is a weakness in the verse.

I always thought it was unbelievable that they never even touched on Angel seeking to secure his soul and remove the loophole.

KingofCretins
21-01-14, 11:05 PM
KingofCretins Angel isn’t a corpse. He’s a vampire.

Magnus Hainsley says you're wrong. Or at least, he says "same diff".


* Regarding Jasmine, Skip only mentions Jasmine affecting things in the Fang Gang’s lives. He easily could have mentioned others and didn’t.

He mentioned things pertaining to the people he was talking to, instead of about third parties they neither know or care about. But the gist is clear -- if you want to accept the Jasmine of it, than Jasmine can be blamed for every event in Angel's or Darla's existence that put them in position to conceive Connor, and that would necessarily include Spike being just another pawn.


The teen lust thing I think is just to create the modern equivalent of the virginal beauty in her chaste gown that dracula thralls into opening her bedroom window in the old vamp movies. If you want the innocence/darkness lusty contrasts then in this day and age the images are going to focus on those around legal age to promote that air of assumed innocence because it is no longer achieved just by virtue of being an unwed maiden!!

From a Doylist standpoint, though, it almost can't be, because vampire fetishism of the sort in the Buffyverse and where it unfortunately hews closest to Twilight and such is clearly for the benefit of the female audience. The male fascination here would be much more about the vampire's perspective -- the debasing the virgin thing -- and is never the focus of this sort of fiction. Angel, at 240, is fascinated by 17 year old Buffy because that's what is pulling the romance novel demo.

kana
27-01-14, 05:03 PM
MikeB

To be honest, I only read the page of the debate for which you provided a link.


*Angel wanted to stay with Darla. Angel wanted to continue being evil.

Well arguably this shows that Angel did change when he had a soul, in that respect you could argue that Angel made a choice to become a good vampire, just that he didn't make a choice to become a soulled vampire.


Plus, if Long Night’s Journey is still canon, Angel’s soul is from a champion warrior.

I'm not sure if it is, so I'll ignore this, until I have further clarification.





* Angel after 1898 and 1900 it seems wasn’t doing good, and when he did he was forced into it (WWII) and at the Hyperion when he initially helps that girl. Of course, even in these instances, he could have dusted Lawson and didn’t and he allowed the demon to kill all the people in the hotel.

Listing Angel's mistakes doesn't prove whether or not if chose to do good.



* Whistler shows Buffy to Angel and – aside from whatever influence Twilight had – Angel decides to “be someone, someone be counted” because he wants to be with the underage girl.

I'm reluctant to go on this path for several reasons. Firstly, Buffy being underage is a separate moral issue, however it is not one that has escaped my attention.


That’s not ‘making the choice’ of wanting to be a ‘good vampire’ so much as it is his wanting to be someone Buffy would want to have sex with.

That's more your opinion than it is 'fact'. He did fall in love with Buffy and he also wanted to seek redemption. Considering he fought for the PTBs without any knowledge of The Shanshu and without any clear hope of being with Buffy because of the happiness clause, it would seem that there was more to Angel wanting to join the good fight than simply to have sex with girls, especially when he hardly exploits this so called desire elsewhere.



* Plus, of course, the only reason Angel ‘can’ be ‘good’ is because he was cursed.

Didn't Joss say the soul is a way of saying "Is this person trying to be better?"?. If that's the case then of course Angel's soul would provide him that ability. I however, believe even with quote you provided on the other page, Joss is still rather vague on the whole soul issue.

MikeB
19-02-14, 04:16 AM
* The point of mentioning that Angel was dating Buffy when she was 16 years old and had sex with her on her 17th birthday is because Angel statutorily raped her. And Buffy clearly could have dated boys her own age but Angel wanted her for himself.


* Buffy was in love with Angel and that’s the main reason why he wasn’t dusted in “Angel” (B 1.07), the reason why there even was a discussion in “Becoming” (B 2.21) regarding whether to re-curse him, the reason why Buffy risked her life to save him in “Graduation Day Part II” (B 3.22), etc.


* The perfect happiness clause is part of Angel’s curse. Moreover, it depends on what Angel’s soul is. Long Night’s Journey is still possibly canon.



KingofCretins

* Angel and Spike are persons. They are ‘undead’ not dead. Buffy is not having sex with dead bodies. She’s not a necrophiliac. Angel and Spike aren’t corpses.


* My quote: “Regarding Jasmine, Skip only mentions Jasmine affecting things in the Fang Gang’s lives. He easily could have mentioned others and didn’t.”

This is fact. Sure, Jasmine could have been responsible for more things than what Skip details.


* Buffy and Willow are attracted to supernatural people because they are supernatural themselves. Angel and Spike are simply ‘hotter’ and more compatible with Buffy than Xander is.



kana

* I never said that cursed Angel always was as evil as or acted as evil as non-cursed Angel.


* Angel didn’t make the choice to get a soul. The ONLY reason he even can be good is because the Romani Gypsies cursed him.


Listing Angel's mistakes doesn't prove whether or not if chose to do good. This seems to be an oxymoron.


* The first time Angel is seeking redemption happens when AtS begins. In BtVS, Angel was ‘being good’ and ‘doing good’ in order to be with Buffy.


* It is canon that Angel “became someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy.


* Angel not wanting to have sex with other underage girls doesn’t discount that he wanted to have sex with an underage Buffy.

cryyhavoc
22-02-14, 02:08 AM
* Angel and Spike are persons. They are ‘undead’ not dead. Buffy is not having sex with dead bodies. She’s not a necrophiliac. Angel and Spike aren’t corpses.


Angel and Spike are not persons, they are dead bodies, nothing about them is natural to a person. The moment they died, they became "dead". Buffy is having sex with cold dead bodies, she is definitely a necrophiliac by very definition of the word. You may not like it, but it is the absolute truth.

kana
22-02-14, 02:23 PM
kana

* I never said that cursed Angel always was as evil as or acted as evil as non-cursed Angel.

Ok...



* Angel didn’t make the choice to get a soul.

I never said he did. In fact you stating this is irrelevant. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you refer to 'Cursed Angel' you're referring to Angel with a soul. Now, you argued that Soulled Angel didn't make a choice to become a good vampire, however you've stated as part of your argument that Angelus didn't make a choice to get a soul. Huh? We're not talking about 'Uncursed Angel's' decisions, we're talking about 'Cursed' Angel's decisions, so that argument should be irrelevant.


The ONLY reason he even can be good is because the Romani Gypsies cursed him.

Unless you're arguing that Angel with a soul has no free will then this argument makes no sense. If Angel can choose between good and evil then if he chooses to be good, then is making a choice to do good.



This seems to be an oxymoron.

Sorry, I think I must made a typo. To make myself clear, I'm saying listing Angel's mistakes does not prove he didn't make a choice to do good. If anything it indicates the opposite. Angel with a soul can choose to do what people consider evil, but if that's the case he can choose to do what's right.



* The first time Angel is seeking redemption happens when AtS begins.

That would still arguably be a choice to do good.



In BtVS, Angel was ‘being good’ and ‘doing good’ in order to be with Buffy.

This is simply your opinion. Frankly, on this issue, we should agree to disagree. Incidentally, if you want to play the Joss card, he actually stated Angel was a hero.



* It is canon that Angel “became someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy.


Nope. Angel only said he wanted to help her and wanted to become someone. It was never stated he only did it to be with Buffy.



* Angel not wanting to have sex with other underage girls doesn’t discount that he wanted to have sex with an underage Buffy.

Again, I'm not sure how this a reasonable counterargument to anything I've stated. I was arguing that we cannot prove that Angel's only motivation to joining the fight against evil was to have sex with Buffy. The morality in itself of Angel having sex with Buffy before the age of consent is a different topic.

_Buffy_
23-02-14, 10:57 AM
[QUOTE=MikeB;689880]





Ok...



I never said he did. In fact you stating this is irrelevant. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you refer to 'Cursed Angel' you're referring to Angel with a soul. Now, you argued that Soulled Angel didn't make a choice to become a good vampire, however you've stated as part of your argument that Angelus didn't make a choice to get a soul. Huh? We're not talking about 'Uncursed Angel's' decisions, we're talking about 'Cursed' Angel's decisions, so that argument should be irrelevant.



Unless you're arguing that Angel with a soul has no free will then this argument makes no sense. If Angel can choose between good and evil then if he chooses to be good, then is making a choice to good.



Sorry, I think I must made a typo. To make myself clear, I'm saying listing Angel's mistakes does not prove he didn't make a choice to do good. If anything it indicates the opposite. Angel with a soul can choose to do what people consider evil, but if that's the case he can choose to do what's right.



That would still arguably be a choice to do good.



This is simply your opinion. Frankly, on this issue, we should agree to disagree. Incidentally, if you want to play the Joss card, he actually stated Angel was a hero.



Nope. Angel only said he wanted to help and wanted to become someone. It was never stated he only did it be with Buffy.



Again, I'm not sure how this a reasonable counterargument to anything I've stated. I was arguing that we cannot prove that Angel's only motivation to joining the fight against evil was to have sex with Buffy. The morality in itself of Angel having sex with Buffy before the age of consent is a different topic.





I didn't read previous posts, because I don't have time. But it's obvious that Angel has a choice . When he got his soul back he felt a big remourse and guilt . He has a choice - he may stop killing and that's it. Just stop killing and do nothing. But it was his own choice to seek for redemption, to fights against evil , to help the helpless. He choose to protect people a long time before he find out about a Shanshu Prophecy . So, to makes The Prophecy come true wasn't his aim at first place. He just try to redempt his guilt . He wants to make amends and it was his choice . / The same with Spike, when he got his soul back . Well, Spike seek for his soul , but to proceed to fight agains evil was his own choice /

buffyholic
25-02-14, 11:07 AM
But when Angel returned to Darla, he couldn´t be evil anymore and he only killed "evildoers" just as Darla stated.
But I think Angel wanted to do good to help Buffy but not to sleep with her. Sure, he was impressed by her but he didn´t mean to fall for her. And then, in season 3, Buffy again gave him a push for Angel to do good in the world.

_Buffy_
26-02-14, 04:49 PM
When Angel returned to Darla , IMO, not that he could't , he didn't want to. He has a conscience and not to kill people was his choice. May be in the beggining he didn't realize it, when the soul was still new for him, but IMO he didn't want to kill people anymore.

buffyholic
28-02-14, 12:41 PM
His soul started to change him and you´re right, at the beginning he wanted to fool himself into thinking he could still kill and drink like before but then, he realized that he didn´t want to anymore. He still has rough patches like what we see in "Orpheus" when he drank from that man but slowly, he wants to change and he starts to change.

_Buffy_
28-02-14, 08:29 PM
Exactly ! And also he pushing too hard because of Darla. He wants to bring Darla back and he pretending to do what Darla expect from him. But when she offers him the little baby - this was the too much and Angel realized and he even can't pretending anymore.

MikeB
11-03-14, 02:19 AM
* The Curse is what resulted in Cursed Angel not wanting to kill people. It wasn’t HIS choice to not want to kill humans. It was the Romani Gypsies choice.



cryyhavoc

* Buffy is not a necrophiliac. You seem to not know the actual definition of that word.



kana

* Cursed Angel is cursed Angel. If uncursed Angel went to that being Spike went to, and if uncursed Angel passed the Trials and won Liam’s soul back, I wouldn’t be referring to that version of Angel as cursed Angel.


* Buffy didn’t make the choice to switch bodies with Faith. It was something that was done to her. Angel’s cursed state was not something he chose.


* My quote: In BtVS, Angel was ‘being good’ and ‘doing good’ in order to be with Buffy.

This is not an opinion. This is canon.


Incidentally, if you want to play the Joss card, he actually stated Angel was a hero. Joss Whedon also said that a soul was forced on Angel. Joss also had Angel be Twilight.


* My quote: It is canon that Angel “became someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy.

This is canon. Seriously, how are you remembering BtVS S1 and after?



_Buffy_

* Cursed Angel feeling guilt and remorse is part of the point of the curse.


* Again, cursed Angel only first actually ‘actively’ starts to do good 99 years after being cursed. And it was to be with the naïve inexperienced underage Slayer.



buffyholic

* Angel fell for Buffy in those flashbacks in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21).

KingofCretins
11-03-14, 01:24 PM
As far as I can tell, one doesn't need to be soulless to want to kill people. Conversely, one doesn't need a soul to not want to kill people. Getting a soul back didn't shove the parking brake on Angel's ability to want to kill or not; it just reattuned it to a more human moral perspective on the subject.

You still quote yourself as an authority to support your own arguments.

kana
11-03-14, 03:49 PM
* The Curse is what resulted in Cursed Angel not wanting to kill people. It wasn’t HIS choice to not want to kill humans. It was the Romani Gypsies choice.


Unless you're implying that when Angel has a soul he lacks free will, then your argument makes no sense and of course 'Cursed Angel' can kill people and want to kill people, we've seen it. So your argument makes even less sense. Put into simple terms, if 'Cursed Angel' can people, then anytime he doesn't, it's his choice.





kana

* Cursed Angel is cursed Angel.

I'm not sure what this even means. Are you saying that 'Cursed Angel' is not Angel when he possesses a soul? The term 'Cursed Angel' was never used on the show or as far as I'm aware, by the writers.



If uncursed Angel went to that being Spike went to, and if uncursed Angel passed the Trials and won Liam’s soul back, I wouldn’t be referring to that version of Angel as cursed Angel.

So you're basically calling him 'Cursed Angel' to make some sort of pointless comparison with Spike? The Shanshu prophecy refers to a vampire with a soul. It was thought this could apply to Spike or Angel. No one, not even Joss has contradicted this. I'm not saying Angel wasn't cursed, I'm just trying clarify what you meant.



* Buffy didn’t make the choice to switch bodies with Faith. It was something that was done to her. Angel’s cursed state was not something he chose.


Again, how does this relate to anything I've said? It doesn't even have any relevance to the debate unless you're implying the soul equates to the spirit, or the immaterial part of someone that is their consciousness, that can exist independent of the body. For the sake of this debate, I'm assuming that's not the case, not just for simplicity's sake, but because I know you seem to subscribe to the theory that the soul is something other than the spirit.

* My quote: In BtVS, Angel was ‘being good’ and ‘doing good’ in order to be with Buffy.

This is not an opinion. This is canon.

Unless you can provide a quote or your name is Joss Whedon, what you've written is simply your opinion.



Joss Whedon also said that a soul was forced on Angel. Joss also had Angel be Twilight.

Yeah, and? It's not as if I've ever contradicted those things, so what's your point?



* My quote: It is canon that Angel “became someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy.

This is canon. Seriously, how are you remembering BtVS S1 and after?

I could ask you the same question. You seem to think because he was attracted to Buffy and wanted to be with her, that this was the only reason why we "chose to do good" as you say. This was never stated by Joss as far as I'm aware, nor was it stated on the show. I'd ask you to provide me with a quote, but I fear you'd simply ignore this, quote yourself and simply repeat the words "This is canon"!

Incidentally...I actually agree with MikeB on the whole necrophilia argument. Both legally and psychologically it simply doesn't hold because it's like uh, canon that human law doesn't recognize vampires (see Sanctuary and the conversation between Lindsay and Kate if you don't believe me) and yes technically they are undead and that's important distinction.

MikeB
31-03-14, 11:55 PM
KingofCretins

* Angelus didn’t make the choice to be good. That’s mostly all that’s actually relevant for the discussion.


* Angel only decided to start doing good in order to be with Buffy. Even with that, until BtVS S2 that mostly involved trying to give Buffy information.



kana

* The curse wasn’t Angelus’s choice. You may as well say it was Spike’s choice not to kill Willow in “Pangs” (B 4.09).


* Joss Whedon wrote Long Night’s Journey . The canon seems to be that Angelus is who ‘Angel’ actually is. To my knowledge, Joss Whedon has never said that LNJ isn’t canon.


* “Cursed Angel” is clearly the same as “Angel”; “Uncursed Angel” is clearly the same as “Angelus”. BtVS until BtVS S3 or something said “Angel” to include both versions of Angel. “Angel” and “Angelus” is mostly only bifurcated so that Buffy could still be with Angel.


* Joss Whedon makes the distinction between cursed Angel and souled Spike. Even outside of that, there is a distinction between how and why the two characters have souls and it is obvious to all objective viewers. I wasn’t referring to the Shanshu Prophecy, so I’m not sure why you brought that up.


* In the Buffyverse, there isn’t a spirit in normal humans. They have souls.


* My quote: “In BtVS, Angel was ‘being good’ and ‘doing good’ in order to be with Buffy.”

It seems you need to re-watch “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21).


* Not being super evil or not being evil doesn’t equate to being “good”. Angel wasn’t good before BtVS S1. Yes, his not helping Buffy in Los Angeles and before she came to Sunnydale is a mark on Angel. He didn’t even help during the whole Harvest thing, against the Master, etc.

kana
02-04-14, 06:56 PM
kana

* The curse wasn’t Angelus’s choice.

Mike, I went through with you in great detail about what you meant when you said "Cursed Angel" or "Uncursed Angel" just to avoid this kind of misunderstanding. The thread pertains to Angel not Angelus, so Angelus' choices are completely irrelevant to this thread.


You may as well say it was Spike’s choice not to kill Willow in “Pangs” (B 4.09).

Erm, some do make the comparison between soulled Angel and a chipped Spike, but it seems that Angel is far more able to kill than the chippedSpike.


* Joss Whedon wrote Long Night’s Journey . The canon seems to be that Angelus is who ‘Angel’ actually is. To my knowledge, Joss Whedon has never said that LNJ isn’t canon.

I'll try and get my hands on it, but everything I can find states that it's canonical status is questionable.


* “Cursed Angel” is clearly the same as “Angel”; “Uncursed Angel” is clearly the same as “Angelus”.

So therefore mentioning Angelus' choices are not relevant, given the title of the thread.




* Joss Whedon makes the distinction between cursed Angel and souled Spike. Even outside of that, there is a distinction between how and why the two characters have souls and it is obvious to all objective viewers.

You're not being precise enough. What do you mean by a distinction between 'cursed Angel and souled Spike? Many distinctions can be made between the two characters. I was merely arguing that the soul is the same metaphysical thing in both cases. This doesn't not argue against how they got their souls , the happiness clause or how they react to having their souls.


I wasn’t referring to the Shanshu Prophecy, so I’m not sure why you brought that up.

The fact that Angel and Spike are both vampires with souls and the Shanshu prophecy was represented as being applicable to both of them.


* In the Buffyverse, there isn’t a spirit in normal humans. They have souls.

I'm not sure if you understand the concept of dualism, because all the evidence points to towards it in the 'Verse.


* My quote: “In BtVS, Angel was ‘being good’ and ‘doing good’ in order to be with Buffy.”

It seems you need to re-watch “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21).

How arrogant! How about for once you back up your arguments instead of clearly making stuff up?!


* Not being super evil or not being evil doesn’t equate to being “good”.

Based upon what objective moral scale?


Angel wasn’t good before BtVS S1. Yes, his not helping Buffy in Los Angeles and before she came to Sunnydale is a mark on Angel. He didn’t even help during the whole Harvest thing, against the Master, etc.

Nothing suggests that just because one makes mistakes they then can't become 'good' as you put it. This is just a personal view you have.

MikeB
15-04-14, 05:32 AM
kana

* “Angel” isn’t Angel’s choice. It’s simply incorrect to say that being good was Angel’s choice.


* Joss Whedon – to my knowledge – has never said or implied that Long Night’s Journey isn’t canon. Tales of the Vampires : “Orpheum” heavily implies that Angelus is who Angel is.


* You seem to want to ignore or dismiss that Angelus was cursed.


* All indications are that Spike got his soul back, meaning William Pratt’s. Joss Whedon says that Spike still had part of his soul even after he was sired by Drusilla. Joss wrote that Angel’s soul came from a champion warrior. Angel’s soul is part of a curse meant to make Angel suffer for all eternity. Spike’s soul was meant to make him a better man.


* Again, the Shanshu Prophecy isn’t part of this thread.


* My quote: “In the Buffyverse, there isn’t a spirit in normal humans. They have souls.”

There is no indication that humans in the Buffyverse have a soul and a separate spirit.


How about for once you back up your arguments instead of clearly making stuff up?! If you forgot main parts of the Buffyverse, that’s your problem, not mine. My remembering the actual canon is not my “clearly making stuff up”? And it’s not arrogant to say that one should be informed when debating a subject. And it’s simply a lie to say that I’ve never backed up my arguments.


* You seem to want to congratulate Angel for no longer wanting to mass murder and try to destroy the world. But it’s not as if this was Angel’s choice. The curse is mostly responsible.

kana
18-04-14, 10:19 AM
kana

* “Angel” isn’t Angel’s choice.

I don't believe you're being clear enough. I have never argued that Angel getting a soul was his choice. If that's you're argument, then it's pretty much a pointless one. You may as well argue that Buffy is a Slayer. Your initial argument is whether or not 'Cursed Angel' made a choice to be a 'good vampire'. I'm arguing that if Angel was doing what one might describe as 'good' that it's Angel's choice. To imply otherwise is the say that Angel doesn't have any free will or that he cannot do evil. If Angel can make a choice between good and evil with a soul, then it's logical to come to the conclusion he can and did choose to do good.


It’s simply incorrect to say that being good was Angel’s choice.

Why? Your assumption seems to be that Angel would have to be good without a soul for him to be choose to be good, but that's merely your opinion and an unqualified one at that. You completely ignored my argument about 'Cursed Angel' having free will by the way. Is that because it's inconvenient to your argument?



* Joss Whedon – to my knowledge – has never said or implied that Long Night’s Journey isn’t canon. Tales of the Vampires : “Orpheum” heavily implies that Angelus is who Angel is.

This goes back to argument about Angel's identity. I like arguments to be precise and yours isn't. Your argument, if I remember correctly is that Angelus is who Angel really is because the soul was forced upon him. However I argued that just because he didn't choose to get soul, it doesn't mean that Angel's soulled behaviour isn't just as genuine as his soulless behaviour. My argument merely observes that his behaviour is simply different with and without a soul.



* You seem to want to ignore or dismiss that Angelus was cursed.

I''m not dismissing anything. I've fully acknowledge and have always acknowledged Angel was cursed. I don't see how that contradicts anything I've said, unless you're misunderstanding my arguments. I merely describe him as a vampire with a soul sometimes, which is completely accurate, but it doesn't mean I'm ignoring he was cursed. That's like arguing that by stating Buffy is female, I'm denying or ignoring that she is Caucasian. The two things are not mutually exclusive.



* All indications are that Spike got his soul back, meaning William Pratt’s.

I'm going to start ignoring parts of the posts like this unless you specify how it relates to what I'm saying, because I don't see how this relates to any of my arguments. The easiest thing to do is 'reply with quote' so I can see exactly how your arguments correspond with mine.


Joss Whedon says that Spike still had part of his soul even after he was sired by Drusilla.

So what does that mean? Did Spike choose to retain part of his soul? The whole point of this thread is about choice. I mean, do we take a compatibilist view here? If not, why not say that Spike didn't choose to become good because he was made to retain part of his soul and he didn't choose to fall in love with Buffy and get a chip in his head and all the other things that made him get a soul a be a champion. I'm fully aware that Angel's soul influences him but it doesn't force him to do anything.


Joss wrote that Angel’s soul came from a champion warrior.

But did he say that different souls have different qualities? Even if he did, does that remove Angel's free will?



Angel’s soul is part of a curse meant to make Angel suffer for all eternity. Spike’s soul was meant to make him a better man.

This doesn't contradict anything I've ever said. My argument about the soul being something like a conscience actually fits both scenarios. A conscience (for want of a better term of course) can make someone a better person but it can also make someone feel guilty for things they have done that they might consider wrong.


* Again, the Shanshu Prophecy isn’t part of this thread.

You almost seemed to be denying that Angel was a vampire with a soul. The Shanshu reference was proof against this.



* My quote: “In the Buffyverse, there isn’t a spirit in normal humans. They have souls.”

There is no indication that humans in the Buffyverse have a soul and a separate spirit.

I gave plenty of examples in the other thread. It's a fact that someone's consciousness can exist without their physical body in the 'Verse, but if that equates to the soul then Angelus and Angel have to separate, as I explained fully in the other thread.


If you forgot main parts of the Buffyverse, that’s your problem, not mine.

Your problem is that your arguments lack precision. You say things like "It's fact" and when I question how you arrived at your conclusions you simply repeat yourself without qualifying your arguments. What's worse in this situation is that you're not even bothering to explain what you mean. You're arguing that Angel was doing good in order to be with Buffy. Nowhere in Becoming is this mentioned. Are you basing this on Joss' quotes? Quotes from the episode? Or are you simply inferring it from 'the look in Angel's eyes' or something equally absurd. Be precise Mike!



My remembering the actual canon is not my “clearly making stuff up”?

Yet when it comes to actually back up your argument with facts you either ignore me or simply repeat "It's canon". You argued that Joss is the only arbiter of canon. So without any factual references or quotes from Joss to qualify your argument, the only logical conclusion is to assume you're making it up.


And it’s not arrogant to say that one should be informed when debating a subject.

I am informed. I'm informed enough to know that you lack factual evidence to back up your claims. I'd be happy to provide quotes and references to back up an argument that I believe is fact. Anyone can make something up and say "Re-watch the series" as the reply, but the debate goes nowhere, so what's the point? Whenever I try and get you to be precise with your arguments and give examples, you always refuse. Why? Because, more than likely, you cannot back up your arguments with tangible canon such as quotes or referencing scenes.



And it’s simply a lie to say that I’ve never backed up my arguments.

Yeah, you've probably done it once or twice in about 4 years, but very rarely.



* You seem to want to congratulate Angel for no longer wanting to mass murder and try to destroy the world.

Angel did more than that. Like saving the Scoobies lives (Invisable Girl) and saving Team Angel (Epiphany against the Skilosh demons).


But it’s not as if this was Angel’s choice. The curse is mostly responsible.

Again, free will, look it up!

Stoney
18-04-14, 11:47 AM
Joss Whedon says that Spike still had part of his soul even after he was sired by Drusilla.

Did he? When/where? It seems to undermine Spike's arc in getting his soul back to be a better man so he would never try such an act again etc etc if he already had a 'bit' of a soul!! I have heard James Marsters say such things based on his own acting intentions, but would like to know when/where Joss said it as that is a whole different thing entirely.


Joss wrote that Angel’s soul came from a champion warrior.

Again, when/where? I never thought they even implied that Angel's soul was other than his human soul returned.

kana
18-04-14, 01:29 PM
Did he? When/where? It seems to undermine Spike's arc in getting his soul back to be a better man so he would never try such an act again etc etc if he already had a 'bit' of a soul!! I have heard James Marsters say such things based on his own acting intentions, but would like to know when/where Joss said it as that is a whole different thing entirely.

The only thing I remember Joss saying is that Spike was kind of 'soulful' character. I never interpreted that to mean he literally had part of his soul. I'm still waiting on Mike for a link or at least an exact quote on this...


Again, when/where? I never thought they even implied that Angel's soul was other than his human soul returned.

The curse literally states this!

Quod perditum est, invenietur.

Translation: What is lost, return.

Of course it they could be talking about a 'replacement soul' but maybe it doesn't make a difference. Do different souls have different strengths? If they returned Liam's soul would Angel not have been a champion? A lot of speculation really...

vampmogs
18-04-14, 01:55 PM
To my knowledge Joss Whedon has never said any such thing. DAVID FURY said something very similar to that in the DVD commentary for Lies My Parents Told Me, but Joss? Nah.

"There's been a lot of controversy with my opinions about Spike and about his, the nature of Spike and a lot of people are concerned why is Spike, why is Spike letting her talk to him in that way? Why is he so hurt? He's a vampire. Why would he? And I think that was the point of this episode. It was to say Spike is an anomaly in the vampire world. He has some facet of his soul even if it was removed when he became a vampire. He has more humanity as a vampire than most vampires do. We haven't explained why that is but perhaps something about the character of him as a man, and he's retained it as a vampire." (David Fury)

In the Writes Environment interview Joss did say "I always thought [Spike] was a good guy even when he was a bad guy" but he never stated that Spike retained a part of his soul or was some mythological anomaly. He was referring to the layers they gave him (as opposed to the Master) and the way he was devoted to Drusilla in S2.

As for Angel getting another Champion's soul, MikeB is coming to that conclusion based on an old Darkhorse comic written back in 2002 called Long Day's Journey. The arc was co-written by Joss Whedon and Brett Matthews, although, according to Scott, whilst Matthews was "initially brought into 'help', he sort of took over to a large extent." Anyway, I'm assuming MikeB believes the comic is canon because Whedon helped write some of it but to my knowledge it's never been stated as such and I can't ever recall Joss, or even Dakhorse for that matter, referring to the book again or talking about its canonical status (as opposed to S8-S10, Fray and Tales of the Vampires/Slayers etc).

The basic plot of the book is that a Chinese Champion named Zheng is killed and turned into a vampire back in 1310. Angel crosses paths with Zheng in London during the 1920's and Zheng kicks Angel's drunken ass outside of a pub. Angel doesn't see Zheng again until he reappears in Los Angeles (the arc is set inbetween First Impressions and Untouched) and wants revenge on Angel. As it turns out, they didn't meet by chance back in the 1920's, Angel was being followed by gypsies at the time who planned to curse Zheng the same way they cursed Angel. According to Zheng, Angel was merely a "lab rat" and "a test to see if a soul could be bound back to the undead" and the gypsies were spying on Angel and studying him. The gypsies planned to curse Zheng who would be the perfect vampire Champion but for reasons Zheng doesn't understand the curse didn't work on him and Zheng ambushes and murders them. Zheng is basically resentful that the curse worked on Angel, that he was chosen, that he was given back his soul. He captures Angel and plans to torture and tear the soul out of him (his plans aren't exactly logical, you see) but Gunn interrupts, Angel breaks free, kicks Zheng's ass, and bounds Zheng up. As Angel is leaving Zheng poses a question to Angel – "The soul? Are you very sure that its yours?"

That's it. Angel says nothing and leaves and Zheng blows up in a fire (long story). Contrary to what MikeB would like to believe, the comic does not state unequivocally that Angel's soul isn't actually his. Zheng believes Angel may have gotten his soul but that's because he can't understand why his soul wasn't returned to him and considers himself "perfect" so he's naturally resentful that Angel was "chosen" and he wasn't. And Zheng's described as "crazy", his plan is clearly illogical as he plans to take the soul from Angel with a, erm, scalpel, and he contradicts himself throughout the fight saying he'll "settle for [Angel's] soul" which suggests even he isn't entirely convinced his soul is actually in Angel. Even the gypsies don't know why the curse didn't work (the gypsy asks "why?" before Zheng kills her) which is a major flaw in Zheng's theory as if they already gave away Zheng's soul to Angel they'd obviously know about it, right? It's nothing more than a crackpot theory from a bitter and mentally unstable vampire with a huge superiority complex. It's not stated by any other character and the issue doesn't say he's right, like, at all. If I'm being generous, you could say that the writers leave it somewhat open-ended as they don't explicitly state he was wrong either but it's not as open-ended as, say, Normal Again, and nobody is saying that it's "canon" Buffy is really just a mental patient in an asylum.

MikeB is jumping to conclusions claiming it's "canon" that Angel's soul belongs to Zheng. The issue doesn't confirm that whatsoever and seeing as how Joss never explores this idea further either in the comics or the TV show, I'd say it goes without saying we're meant to believe it was Angel's soul that was returned to him. But it may be a moot discussion anyway as the canonical status of Long Day's Journey is ambiguous at best. And I'm not saying that because I don't like the arc, as far as the old DH comics go it's actually a rather fun read. MikeB can claim it's canon that Angel has Zheng's soul all he likes but he's basing it off a comic that may not even be canon and a comic that, even if it were, never confirms any such thing. It's just another way of trying to bash Angel and give him no credit, so what's new? *shrugs*

And Kana is absolutely correct that even if Angel was given another Champion's soul it's pure speculation that it would even have made a difference. A soul is merely a conscience, a moral compass. The gypsies didn't believe that Zheng had a super-special soul that was more heroic or Champion-y than other people's souls. A soul does not contain a person's potential and strengths. Darla sired Liam because she saw great potential and magnificence in him and he didn't lose that when he lost his soul. Instead all that potential was channelled into acts of great evil and Angelus became legendary for all the wrong reasons. The gypsies believed that by returning Zheng's soul he'd gain back his conscience and start putting his abilities and bravery towards fighting evil again and being a super powered Champion for good. But everything that made him such a badass Champion still remained when he became a vampire (hence being able to beat the snot out of Angel), he just used his potential for evil. There's no evidence whatsoever that it would have made a damn bit of difference if Angel had received Zheng's soul instead of his own.

Stoney
18-04-14, 09:13 PM
To my knowledge Joss Whedon has never said any such thing. DAVID FURY said something very similar to that in the DVD commentary for Lies My Parents Told Me, but Joss? Nah.

"There's been a lot of controversy with my opinions about Spike and about his, the nature of Spike and a lot of people are concerned why is Spike, why is Spike letting her talk to him in that way? Why is he so hurt? He's a vampire. Why would he? And I think that was the point of this episode. It was to say Spike is an anomaly in the vampire world. He has some facet of his soul even if it was removed when he became a vampire. He has more humanity as a vampire than most vampires do. We haven't explained why that is but perhaps something about the character of him as a man, and he's retained it as a vampire." (David Fury)

I think it was David Fury James Marsters mentioned last time he said they had to write in that Spike had kept part of his soul because that was how he played the character. I dismissed it as nonsense because it clearly isn't something that appeared in the text. Plus it would, as I've said, undermine his arc so would be a somewhat daft thing for them to say when it adds no value and clearly isn't part of the story. Also tbh I ignored it because I thought it sounded like the kind of thing JM states randomly sometimes. On occasion he will say he just performed what other people created and sometimes he will seem to big up his role in making Spike so memorable/loved by many fans.

Going from your quote, it seems to be about what happened with his mum - that that raised questions over his soulless actions/responses. But 'facet' of a soul isn't 'part' of a soul anyway. It means an aspect or feature, so contextually seems to be referring to his personality mix between his human and demon that makes the individual vampire. So perhaps Spike retained some more human behaviours on some occasions that explains how he reacted/acted, and again that all just scans in with everything seen. That different vamps have higher degrees of x characteristic due to the human they were has always made sense and played its part in the verse now and then. Dru, Harmony and Kralik spring to mind as other obvious examples.


In the Writes Environment interview Joss did say "I always thought [Spike] was a good guy even when he was a bad guy" but he never stated that Spike retained a part of his soul or was some mythological anomaly. He was referring to the layers they gave him (as opposed to the Master) and the way he was devoted to Drusilla in S2.

Again, scans and makes sense to the character they built him to be. Seriously, soul parts would just be a nonsense and really mess about with the mythology, the significance of the soul and spoil the intensity of his story. It supports the mythology even by showing that even though he could be somewhat good (as Harmony tries to be too sometimes), the inherent nature of a vampire allows for incidents where trust can be misplaced that wouldn't occur for the same person where a soul is in the mix. Both Angel and Spike's stories need that.

It sounds entirely like the Champion soul thing was, as you say, Zheng's crackpot theory and an attempt to get under Angel's skin because of his jealousy. Also, it would need to be a part of the curse surely for it to be true? Willow would have needed to duplicate that it was someone else's soul for the restoration into Angel both times she resouled him. From all you have said it seems clearly tripe that Angel had Zheng's soul.

Anyway, Spike might have chosen to get his soul but once he has it both he and Angel are as capable of choosing to try to do good acts thereon, and both of them have. That doesn't mean of course that they get it right all the time. They are in a more difficult situation than humans are as they still are demons and have that in the mix, but it isn't the same as when they were soulless.

Personally, my fanon is that Angel struggled more/for longer when first souled because it was a sudden thing that his internal demon (so to speak) railed against, was an instant swing of extremes and it took time for him to stop reeling and find a balance/gain control. S1 of BtVS has clearly showed his intentions to try and help but his uncertainty of the ways to go about it imo. Spike's personality worked with the unique circumstances the chip provided him to lead him partway down the path of fighting on the other side whilst soulless and helped him to be in a position where he would want to fight for his soul. And, of course, he then had support afterwards and wasn't totally isolated once Buffy found him. Totally different scenarios. But Angel and Spike are as equally free to choose to be good now with their souls. How successful they are is individual obviously. But the same could be said about Buffy/Willow, or Dowling/Riley, or Faith/Kennedy etc etc.

vampmogs
19-04-14, 01:51 AM
Yes, you're spot on that Willow would have noticed that the curse required Zheng's soul and not Angel's own. Kana is correct that the translation of the curse actually requires for Angel's soul to be "returned" which makes no sense if he never had it to begin with. The fact MikeB latches onto Zheng's theory is, well, not surprising, but it's not remotely substantiated in canon. Everything contradicts it.

I think there's numerous reasons why Spike adapted to his soul more easily. As you say, it was a huge drastic change for Angel to be given a soul when he was not remotely at a place where he had the potential to better himself, let alone want a soul. Spike was not 'good' in S4-S6 but because of the chip and his love for Buffy he was evolving against his nature. Whereas, Angelus was as heinous as you can get and particularly evil even for vampire standards (see the Judge). It was an abrupt transformation for Angel unlike the natural progression that it was for Spike so the fallout was going to be substantially worse. There's also the fact that when Angel had his soul returned to him he was abandoned and cast out. The gypsies had no intention of helping him, Darla threatened to stake him and threw him out of the house, and there was no Buffy to inspire or good guide him. On the other hand, within 3 months Spike was back in Sunnydale and with the Scoobies. He was sheltered, even by Xander, and most importantly Buffy believed in him. Whether it was through tough love in Selfless or kindness Buffy had his back and guided him. I also think it just boils down to their different personalities and the way they reflect on their past and deal with their guilt. Angel "couldn't take his eyes off them", with or without a soul, whereas Spike probably needed to let himself feel that guilt more but nevertheless channeled that guilt in a far more healthy and productive way (as Angel will come to do with AI).

But look, at the end of the day Angel was CURSED to "make him suffer" and be tormented. By its very design Angel wasn't going to find it a walk in the park learning to adapt to his new soul – he wasn't meant to.

kana
19-04-14, 01:50 PM
Absolutely. I mean, I've never seen the differences between Spike and Angel to lie in the way of the metaphysical. I've always assumed the differences are psychological in their nature, but to bring back to original question: I simply think that, like Mogs, Angel is merely Angelus with a conscience and should be judged accordingly like most other soulled humans (although Angel has a demonic bloodlust to which he has to contend). So that means he should be blamed for his mistakes and congratulated for his triumphs. This is the fairest way to judge him.

However MikeB seems to want to blame him for his mistakes but say he isn't (mostly) responsible for doing any good, which to me, seems a little biased.

MikeB
17-06-14, 12:35 PM
* Spike made more of a choice to stop trying to kill Willow in “The Initiative” (B 4.07) than cursed Angel made the choice to be a “good vampire”.


* It wasn’t Angelus’ choice to get a soul. When Jenny Calender tells him she can give it back to him, he kills her, and tries to destroy all her research so that no one else could re-curse him.


* For years, cursed Angel wanted to stay with Darla. The curse prevented him from fully being the Angel whom Darla knows and loves.


* For decades, cursed Angel mostly simply lives a life. He doesn’t try to do good or be a “good vampire”. He simply doesn’t do evil all the time. He does let a demon eat all the guests in a luxury hotel. He does allow a man to die so that he can feed on the dead body.


* Cursed Angel sees Buffy and wants to be with Buffy. Whistler shows him Buffy and cursed Angel is mostly then doing good because he wants to have sex with the sweet, underage, innocent Buffy. She’s essentially Drusilla 2.0.


* When cursed Angel’s feeling the effects of the curse, the curse – at least until BtVS S8 – made cursed Angel mentally ‘not able’ to act as he did before being cursed.




kana

* I sometimes spend hours replying to your posts on a given day. When I disagree with one of your arguments, I don’t respond with “You’re making it up.” or “you don’t explain anything you post”, “you lack any factual evidence”, or ‘in 4 years, you’ve back up your arguments once or twice’ etc.

If you can’t acknowledge something as simple as Angel’s wanting to “be someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy and if you can’t accept my saying something that canon is canon and therefore doesn’t need to be argued, it’s not fruitful enough to spend that time and energy replying to your responses to my posts.

And the Buffyverse is mostly subtext. One cannot know the Buffyverse by reading transcripts on Buffyworld.com.


* However, I will respond to your idea of cursed Angel’s having free will simply because it’s somewhat of a new topic. By definition, he doesn’t when he’s feeling the effects of the curse.

And as relates to this thread, it further concludes that cursed Angel didn’t make the choice to be a good vampire. Without actual free will, he can’t make that choice. When he has something resembling free will, he reverts to his Angelus personality or acts as he does in BtVS S8.



Stoney

* I remember sometime during BtVS S7, Joss Whedon saying that Spike after becoming a vampire still had part of his soul.


* Long Night’s Journey is a comic Joss Whedon wrote and it deals largely with Angel’s soul being from a champion warrior. I don’t remember Joss Whedon ever rescinding its canonical status or ever stating that cursed Angel has Liam’s soul.

________________________________________________

* Willow used the same spell the Gypsies did to re-curse Angel. If the Gypsies used a specific soul to curse Angel then that soul would be always to the soul that Angel is re-cursed with using the Restoration Spell.



vampmogs


To my knowledge Joss Whedon has never said any such thing. DAVID FURY said something very similar to that in the DVD commentary for Lies My Parents Told Me, but Joss? Nah.

"There's been a lot of controversy with my opinions about Spike and about his, the nature of Spike and a lot of people are concerned why is Spike, why is Spike letting her talk to him in that way? Why is he so hurt? He's a vampire. Why would he? And I think that was the point of this episode. It was to say Spike is an anomaly in the vampire world. He has some facet of his soul even if it was removed when he became a vampire. He has more humanity as a vampire than most vampires do. We haven't explained why that is but perhaps something about the character of him as a man, and he's retained it as a vampire." (David Fury) I decided to quote the entire thing so as not to appear to be editing.

* David Fury in the “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17) commentary: “And I think that was the point of this episode. It was to say Spike is an anomaly in the vampire world. He has some facet of his soul even if it was removed when he became a vampire. He has more humanity as a vampire than most vampires do. We haven't explained why”.

None of that is David Fury talking as if this was his opinion. David Fury is talking about these things as facts in the Buffyverse. The only possible ‘David Fury opinion’ is the part about “perhaps something about the character of him as a man, and he's retained it as a vampire”.

Spike’s being an anomaly in the vampire world is canon. Spike’s having “some facet of his soul even if it was removed when he became a vampire” is canon. It makes about no sense that David Fury said this if it wasn’t already canon.

For Stoney , maybe Joss said “facet” or “aspect” and didn’t say “part” and my memory simply replaced “facet” or whatever with “part”. But with souls being amorphous things, for Spike to have a “facet” of his soul when a vampire, he would have ‘part’ of his soul. Therefore, Spike’s soul was removed but some facet of it remained in Spike after being sired.

Spike’s having more humanity than most vampires do is canon.

David Fury is saying, “We haven’t explained why” these things are canon, not that any of that isn’t canon in the Buffyverse.


* It seems you simply don’t like the idea that cursed Angel doesn’t have Liam’s soul.

The Buffyverse largely says ‘Angelus’ is who ‘Angel’ actually is and the only reason cursed Angel doesn’t act like Angelus is because of the curse. BtVS S8 had even cursed Angel acting as Angelus would. Tales of the Vampires : “Orpheum” heavily implies had Angelus is who Angel actually is. It makes zero sense why Joss would write a comic that he never intended to be canon and that he never wanted it to be possible that Angel didn’t get Liam’s soul.

And Scott Allie isn’t Joss Whedon. Whose soul Angel has and what exactly the curse is hasn’t ‘come up’ in the comics these past years and therefore the canon status of Long Night’s Journey isn’t something that Joss needs to reaffirm.

It doesn’t make Angel ‘better’ if he was cursed with Liam’s soul rather than someone else’s or a soul that the Gypsies created.


* You’re also not the arbiter of canon in the Buffyverse. Joss Whedon still hasn’t given an exact definition of what the soul is in the Buffyverse and therefore your saying a “soul is merely a conscience, a moral compass” is merely your saying that.

KingofCretins
17-06-14, 04:50 PM
So David Fury saying something you like = canon, even though Joss never said it as such. Just want to make sure we understand that you aren't even making a pretense of consistency on this "arbiter of canon" thing :) You are the soul of the fanon/headcanon viewer, Mike. Not That There is Anything Wrong With That, but that's where it is -- we've seen you discredit events in a Joss written/Joss directed episode as not canon in favor of a comic book that he gave few if any craps about, because you like it better. We've seen you discard things that, for instance, Scott Allie might say or other people involved in the process, as mere opinion because you dislike them and Joss, the Arbiter of Canon, didn't say it. But here, you like what Fury said, so it's canon. C'mon, man.

kana
19-06-14, 01:25 PM
I'm going to adhere to a new rule. If any arguments to which I've already responded, are repeated, I'm simply going to ignore them. Repeated arguments add nothing to the debate and are a waste of time.




kana

* I sometimes spend hours replying to your posts on a given day. When I disagree with one of your arguments, I don’t respond with “You’re making it up.” or “you don’t explain anything you post”, “you lack any factual evidence”, or ‘in 4 years, you’ve back up your arguments once or twice’ etc.

Admittedly "you're making it up" is provocative, but I find debates go round in circles if we don't back up our arguments. It may be prudent to simply, you know, back up your argument? Simply saying "This is fact" doth not an argument make.


If you can’t acknowledge something as simple as Angel’s wanting to “be someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy

You see that's it right there. I do acknowledge that Angel wanted to be someone to be counted, but it says nowhere in the dialogue that he wanted to be someone to be counted in order to be with Buffy. From memory Angel says "I want to help her, I want to become someone". That's not the same as saying "I want to help her because I want to get laid(!!). That's not canon, Mike, that's merely your intepretation.


and if you can’t accept my saying something that canon is canon

I'm sorry, I was under the impression you're "MikeB" not "Joss Whedon" so you don't get to dictate canon.


and therefore doesn’t need to be argued,

You also have, to borrow one of your phrases "zero authority" to determine what can be argued and what can't be. Frankly, you've simply failed to qualify or provide evidence for your argument. I've exposed this, and now you're simply hiding behind your "it's fact" argument even though there is nothing in the dialogue to support your argument.


it’s not fruitful enough to spend that time and energy replying to your responses to my posts.

What would be fruitful is providing exact and accurate quotes to support your arguments. If you did that in the first place, you could have saved time. Instead you've wasted time explaining why you're not bothering to explain yourself. That seems non-sensical to me.


And the Buffyverse is mostly subtext. One cannot know the Buffyverse by reading transcripts on Buffyworld.com.

Facts shouldn't be down to interpretation. If something is fact it should be 100% straightforward when it comes to the 'Verse. Everything else is up for interpretation. To say otherwise strikes me as arrogant. We all have different views, Mike. The skill is demonstrating and proving your argument to be more valid than your opponent's. Frankly your arguments consist of "What I say canon and there's no debating it".

Basically, unless specified by the author, subtext is open for debate and discussion. It's not up to fans to dictate without any reason that their interpretation is simply correct. If your argument is strong enough you should be able to explain it and qualify it. Arrogantly stating you're right is not an argument.


* However, I will respond to your idea of cursed Angel’s having free will simply because it’s somewhat of a new topic. By definition, he doesn’t when he’s feeling the effects of the curse.

Yet, you hold Angel responsible for his actions, which can't be the case if he has no free will.



And as relates to this thread, it further concludes that cursed Angel didn’t make the choice to be a good vampire. Without actual free will, he can’t make that choice. .

Right so without free will, he's not responsible for his actions at all, good or bad. So Angel cannot be blamed or praised for his actions.


When he has something resembling free will, he reverts to his Angelus personality or acts as he does in BtVS S8

So you're basically saying that if he has free will he's responsible for the 'evil' things he does. This is completely biased and illogical. Those with free will are responsible for all their actions, good or bad. You can't have it both ways, Mike.

Clavus
19-06-14, 02:54 PM
Interesting, if a little belligerent discussion...

I wanted to pick up on one point that stuck out for me, because I must admit I stopped with Buffy and Angel when the TV series came to an end, and did not delve into the comics. However, it was mentioned in this thread that not only was Angel cursed with a soul, but that it in fact was not his own. However, when Spike fought to get his soul back, he was re-issued his original one.

That actually helped me to explain what I always considered a paradox: Liam was pretty much a sleazebag, a lazy, drunk womanizer, someone whose soul was actually in dire peril of not ending up in heaven, even if Liam had never encountered Darla and had been left to his own devices. When he became Angelus the demon added a good dose of focus and sadism to an already questionable character. However, as Angel he did a complete about-face and became a being with a moral compass that was stronger than what he possessed as a human. I have always wondered about that, because if the gypsies had given Angelus Liam's soul back I don't think he would have really made it to champion status. Learning that he got someone else's soul instead makes a lot of sense to me.

Spike started out quite differently. As William he was perhaps a bit of a wimp, but he did not exaggerate when he called himself a good man. He took loving care of his sick mother and he did not lash out or retaliate when confronted with ridicule and scorn. When he became Spike the demon seemed to have mostly worked in the way of loosening impulse control, what Spike referred to as the rush and the crunch. As souled Spike we actually saw him revert to some of his human parameters of behavior. It makes much more sense to me that the First would use William's mother as the trigger, as she was the person that he cared most about in his human life, in fact enough so that even as a vampire he wanted to save her. He even returned to being a bit of a wimp for a while until Buffy told him to man up and he went and retrieved his coat. Souled Spike was much more of a mix of his human and vampiric existence.

So getting his own soul back makes Spike's journey more of a circular one. Getting someone else's makes Angel's journey a progression of three very different and distinct phases. However, it also makes the gypsy curse a truly questionable thing, because these guys did to someone's soul what the Scoobies did to Buffy's soul - rip it out of heaven and stuff it back into a body - the body of a sadistic mass-murdering rapist to boot. It makes one wonder whether Angel's century of moping and Spike's craziness in the basement were just brought on by crushing guilt or if their breakdowns are more comparable to Buffy's depression and numbness in season 6 when she couldn't cope with being back on earth.

NileQT87
19-06-14, 06:53 PM
No. That comic does NOT say such a thing. It's a crazy vampire who only thinks his soul WRONGLY went to Angel out of jealousy at not being the most special little snowflake out of all the vampires.

Angel has had major moments where he's clearly Liam (see Spin the Bottle--Angel did not revert to the human mind of Zheng, but to Liam), just as Spike was rambling the thoughts of William in the school basement. Liam was more than just a dumb drunk womanizer. He even expresses his dream to Darla that he always wanted to see the world. Halloween furthers this by him being disappointed by his life in Galloway regarding women and goes looking for an "interesting" one (which ends with him meeting Darla). What do we know of Liam, Angelus and Angel all having in common? The desire to see the world. Liam's interests informed the vampire, which means he had a photographic memory, was into travel, foreign languages and collecting art. Angel's intelligence (he does a ton of research on AtS and was collecting books Giles didn't have like the lost Pergamum Codex) rivals Wesley's frequently, so Liam was certainly not "dumb", just unfulfilled and in a very unhappy situation with his father in a place he didn't want to be. Note Angelus' interest in the arts--his drawing talent and going to the ballet. Liam's "seeing the world" and wanting to meet someone different and more exciting than the women of his time are fluid through all three incarnations. His story also included father issues which are blatantly dealt with in the Connor arc, as well as Liam's very noticeable Catholicism (being instilled with "the fear of God" is often associated with his father issues). Angel couches his redemption very much in the Catholic sense, such as his obsession with redemption for the sake of not going to hell and the way he reacts to entering the church in I've Got You Under My Skin.

Liam was wasting his life away and a terrible disappointment, but you also saw him have affection for his sister, for example. He wasn't actually evil. The demon that took over his body while his soul went into the ether obviously corrupted his faults into something monstrous, but when Liam came back, he had a shock to the system. And note that Angel doesn't immediately turn good, but fumbles for a century not really knowing how to deal with it other than to largely avoid people. He has nobody to help him and has nobody else to copy (Spike has both to guide him). When Angel tries to go back to the one family he knows, he tries to fit in, but Liam hates who he became, made all the worse by the corruption of his own faults and his 18th century religiosity kicking in. When Darla asks Angel to turn her into a vampire and calls it a "gift", he pointedly says that she "damned" him (I also really doubt that the crazy Chinese vampire Zheng from that comic was an 18th century Irish Catholic). Note that both Angel and Spike are completely bewildered and confused when they first get their souls--this is because the human self takes a while to adjust to an entirely new set of memories they weren't there for.

Also, it's repeatedly explained that when the vampire sets up shop in your body, you are gone and the demon takes your memories, personality and feelings and corrupts them. The human soul then goes into the ether, which seems to be a limbo state that is not heaven. These souls from the ether can then be stuffed back into the vampiric body--and by Angel's own words, he is "damned" to go to hell (perhaps he'd go with the demon) if he ever died. Darla's ghost (who either is her human soul or somehow still connected to Connor's) seems to confirm that she's in hell reliving staking herself over and over.

The gypsy curse is essentially Liam being collateral damage to make Angelus suffer forever in a prison, even though the actions were not his own and ultimately made him hit rock bottom in horror at the memories he now was left with, actually becoming a better man in the process of self-realization. Angelus is a demon he doesn't get along with who whispers in his mind, making him feel all the feelings and have all the desires of the demon as well as his own (Giles confirms in the comics that being in Angel's head was living a schizophrenic argument of both pleasure and horror at past deeds, which echoes Angel's description of simultaneous enjoyment and horror during his Somnambulist nightmare-dreams). Orpheus also further points to there being two distinct beings in Angel's body in constant argument with each other. Being trapped behind Liam's consciousness and conscience actually ends up becoming Angelus' idea of hell, which from the gypsies' perspective means it was a vengeful job well done. Angelus suffers like a caged animal who can't do anything but whisper. That is Angelus' punishment, not Liam/Angel being blamed and made to feel guilty. Angel is simply Angelus' cage, which is his actual punishment. If Angel suddenly becomes happy, then Angelus is no longer suffering being smothered in human guilt and suffering he doesn't share and finds that mindset completely repellent.

Liam hated the powerlessness he felt under his father and Angelus' biggest nightmare is being powerless while he watches things like Angel rescuing puppies. Angelus is all about power and hates the feeling of being "violated" when he is possessed by another being (both Liam and by Grace in the Sadie Hawkins possession--violated by love). You see the same behavior in Angel where he's extremely paternalistic (there are more than a few times where he ends up in an almost surrogate fatherly role with Buffy, Faith and his team, most of which have similarly strained or absentee parents--Fred is the only exception, rather than that of a lover or friend) and finds it very difficult to not be the boss and in control, which also stems from him unconsciously reacting against his father. He becomes his father, including in his relationship with Connor where he's the well-meaning but controlling father to a wayward, self-destructive son. And what is Angel all about when he defeats world peace? Free will.

Spike would also have both a demon and a human in him, but they essentially wanted the same thing (Buffy), which is why the demon was content to be replaced by the human to get what the demon wanted, except William ended up nuts in the basement rambling about William's life and trying to deal with Spike's actions, which the demon never really realized was what the ensoulment would actually entail instead of simply winning Buffy by being what she wanted (getting what Angel had that made Buffy want him). Spike the demon was not prepared for what getting a soul actually meant. The soul was not gotten for a completely moral reason (soulless Spike did not have any guilt over his past crimes--only in regard to things he did that made Buffy reject him). Realizing that he was deficient to get Buffy's love, the demon went in the path of how the only other vampire to win Buffy's heart did so. Angel had no path to follow and spent a century trying to cope with where he stood between demons and humans ("I don't understand it either" when he tried to rid the Hyperion of its demon infestation to save a bunch of grubby humans, who then betray him--he's confused between how to live in the demon and human worlds, feeling guilt and wanting to help and become better, but also fearing betrayal and rejection). He is both, but fitting in with neither at the same time. It took someone telling Angel that it was possible for him to become someone and hope that redeeming his soul might actually be possible, for him to get out of the gutter (he makes the comment of having two modes with people: bite and avoid).

This is why Amends was so important to Angel... A cosmic reply that something bigger out there wanted him to live, which gave him hope for redemption beyond the idea of the First Evil bringing him back to kill Buffy (which made him suicidal). The Mayor pointedly makes the comment that Angel's purpose is grander than destroying Buffy's future, something Angel had been saying before he ever got in a relationship with her. Helping Buffy was the first mission he was given where he had been given hope, but he always brought up his age and immortality, her lifespan and mortality, etc...

Also note that this seems to be part of why he gets angry at Spike for wanting to be with Buffy, well beyond just petty jealousy. He doesn't want Buffy to be with any vampire and not one that just isn't him. Spike is less focused on Buffy's future, though you can see in the comics their very real disagreement with him seeming to be fantasizing about her getting pregnant and keeping the child so they can play family, whereas despite her being a robot, she doesn't want this. Angel and Spike are both thinking from the mindset of those whose futures in the procreation sense were taken from them, so you get Angel being particularly focused on both Buffy growing up and having children in Bad Eggs and The Prom, as well as the way he treats becoming a father. Spike has a similar moment of wanting to stop Buffy from having an abortion. Angel and Spike seem to picture Buffy living on into old age and having a normal life with kids more than Buffy does. They're projecting their own inadequacies and wishes to want her to have all the things they can't, but she can't quite appreciate the POVs of her "incomplete" men.

Stoney
19-06-14, 09:12 PM
Angel is a complete mix though. Whether the demon residing within him is sat alongside the human soul they are still part of the whole which is Angel the souled vampire. Both sides of him influence him so whilst they may war within at times as influencing aspects, there isn't actual separation, it is just a way to talk about mixed motivations. Is the bloodlust that he fights daily only part of the demon? No because he is physically a vampire souled or not and as such he craves blood. It is an inherent part of 'him'. When they go into gameface that isn't the demon taking over the human soul. The soul gives Spike/Angel their moral conscience, pulls them closer to the humans they were, but they are vampires. Spike didn't just fight for his soul to be what he thought Buffy wanted, he did it to be the kind of man who would never have fallen and hurt someone he loved like that, to be a kind of man. It was wider than just Buffy. He saw that his belief he would never hurt her wasn't as certain as he wanted it to be with just the demon in situ with no boundaries and it was possible that it could happen. Having a soul gives them different perspectives and boundaries but they are a complete being, just with differing aspects within them generating a more complex whole.

MikeB
17-07-14, 05:08 AM
KingofCretins

http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19686-Cursed-Angel-didn%92t-%91make-the-choice%92-to-be-a-%91good-vampire%92&p=696106&viewfull=1#post696106


So David Fury saying something you like = canon, even though Joss never said it as such. I don’t know if this is a straw man argument or poor reading comprehension on your part. The rest of that post is nonsense.



kana

* Again, you seem to translate my not agreeing with you as my not “backing up my arguments” and whatever else you say.


* Again, the Buffyverse cannot be understood by reading transcripts on Buffyworld.com. That Angel wanted to “be someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy is canon. Your not accepting canon as canon is irrelevant in regards to canon.


If something is fact it should be 100% straightforward when it comes to the 'Verse. Wow. This is grossly insulting to Joss Whedon and the other writers of the Buffyverse and the actors in the Buffyverse. And it’s insulting to the directors in the Buffyverse. The Buffyverse is “smart”, “intelligent”, and “intellectual”.

Moreover, this is straightforward: “That Angel wanted to “be someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy is canon.”

Maybe you don’t think it’s canon that Angel was flirting with Buffy in “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01) and “The Harvest” (B 1.02) and that he was flirting with her because he eventually wanted to have sex with her.

Moreover, that opinion is insulting to any smart well-done television show.


Basically, unless specified by the author, subtext is open for debate and discussion. No, only ambiguous subtext is “open for debate and discussion”.


Yet, you hold Angel responsible for his actions That isn’t true. I’ve repeatedly said – by the way, it’s silly to complain about my repeating myself if you forget what I’ve said – that I consider Angel/Darla and perhaps other stuff Angel did during AtS s1 through AtS s4 as being because of Jasmine. Angel is Angelus with the curse and all the time and experiences he’s had while cursed. He’s responsible for his actions. It’s not as if Angel on average will be less evil if the curse was lifted or if Angel wasn’t affected by the curse.



Clavus

* The way the Buffyverse is written, it’s far from certain that Angel got Liam’s soul. The way the Buffyverse is written, it’s almost certain Spike got William Pratt’s soul. But we don’t know.



NileQT87

* This thread isn’t about whether Angel got Liam’s soul. You can copy and paste your post www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19686-Cursed-Angel-didn%92t-%91make-the-choice%92-to-be-a-%91good-vampire%92&p=696226&viewfull=1#post696226 in this thread: www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19712-Joss-answers-what-the-soul-is-in-the-Buffyverse or some new thread and I’ll respond to it there.



* Regarding “Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been” (A 2.02), the humans inside the Hyperion Hotel aren’t “grubby”. The humans didn’t betray Angel. One can say that that woman betrayed Angel, but the others had little reason not to believe that Angel was a monster. She herself knew that Angel kept blood in his hotel room.


* You seem to be whitewashing cursed Angel’s post 1898 C.E. actions. He tried to and wanted to stay with Darla. He didn’t actively help people or try to redeem himself until after he saw Buffy. Even in BtVS S1, he’s mostly giving her information and trying to save her. He doesn’t really even start patrolling until BtVS S2. Even in “AYNOHYEB” (A 2.02), he’s largely only helping that woman because she was continuing to annoy him.


* In “Amends” (B 3.10), the First Evil wanted Angel to kill himself. Buffy wouldn’t have had sex with Angel and there’s no reason the First Evil would consider she would.


The Mayor pointedly makes the comment that Angel's purpose is grander than destroying Buffy's future, something Angel had been saying before he ever got in a relationship with her. This whole thing is not based on the actual Buffyverse. Angel’s hadn’t been saying that and the Mayor was simply saying that Buffy/Angel wasn’t going to last because one is immortal and the other isn’t and because of other reasons (mainly Angel’s being a vampire and Angel’s curse).


* Angel wants to be with Buffy. And I don’t know what your point is regarding Buffy/Spike, but the way Angel was treating Spike in early AtS s5, it would have been acceptable for Spike to have dusted Angel in “Destiny” (A 5.08).



Stoney

www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19686-Cursed-Angel-didn%92t-%91make-the-choice%92-to-be-a-%91good-vampire%92&p=696233&viewfull=1#post696233

You can copy and paste your post in this thread www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19712-Joss-answers-what-the-soul-is-in-the-Buffyverse and I’ll respond to it there.

kana
17-07-14, 02:16 PM
KingofCretins

kana

* Again, you seem to translate my not agreeing with you as my not “backing up my arguments” and whatever else you say.

I'm not 'translating' anything. I'm more than happy for someone to disagree with me as long as they can back up their arguments with something resembling fact. If you're unable to do that, as long as you simply admit it's your opinion, I'm fine with that.


* Again, the Buffyverse cannot be understood by reading transcripts on Buffyworld.com.

Again, Mike, this completely misunderstands my point. I'm not talking about simply reading a transcript, I'm arguing that such things are open to intepration, unless stated otherwise. You said yourself Whedon is the only arbitor of canon, so therefore unless he said it, it ain't fact.



That Angel wanted to “be someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy is canon. Your not accepting canon as canon is irrelevant in regards to canon.

Right you still have delusions of being Joss do you?!!!!


Wow. This is grossly insulting to Joss Whedon and the other writers of the Buffyverse and the actors in the Buffyverse. And it’s insulting to the directors in the Buffyverse. The Buffyverse is “smart”, “intelligent”, and “intellectual”.

It's not insulting Mike, it's art. In fact, if anything I'm complimenting the writers! That there can be many different insights into the 'Verse is one of the reasons many fans enjoy it. I mean, come on, we're all fans here, but do we all agree? If all things were 100% without equivocation, we wouldn't be on these boards debating. My point of contention is you arrogantly thinking you know the Buffyverse better than anyone else and using such statements as "Your not accepting canon as canon is irrelevant in regards to canon" Guess what, you're not Joss. I don't accept what you say as fact simply because you say so.



Moreover, this is straightforward: “That Angel wanted to “be someone, someone to be counted” because he wanted to be with Buffy is canon.”

What you've stated is straightfoward, it's just not canon. Again, you've deliberately ignored the fact that Joss has never stated this. You're basically contradicting yourself. You've argued that Joss is the only arbitor of canon but you're outright refusing to use any Joss quotes to back up this argument. I will never accept your argument as fact. If it's your opinion then fine.


Maybe you don’t think it’s canon that Angel was flirting with Buffy in “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01) and “The Harvest” (B 1.02) and that he was flirting with her because he eventually wanted to have sex with her.

Again, you make too many assumptions. First of all, just because he was attracted to Buffy and even if he knew he wanted to have sex with her, that doesn't mean that the only motivation for his helping Buffy was to get laid.


Moreover, that opinion is insulting to any smart well-done television show.

Again, who are you to declare such things? You're just a fan like me, so you don't get to dictate what is essential for a 'smart, well-done television show'.


No, only ambiguous subtext is “open for debate and discussion”.

Again, who are you to dictate what is ambiguous and what is not? Any fact can be explained, proven or qualified. This is true in logic, science and any area of intellectual study. If this is not the case then any random person can claim anything is fact and that is essentially what you're doing.


That isn’t true. I’ve repeatedly said – by the way, it’s silly to complain about my repeating myself if you forget what I’ve said

I don't forget what you said, Mike, I can read. I just don't agree with what you say most of the time. If I don't agree the first time, I'm not going to magically agree the next time.


– that I consider Angel/Darla and perhaps other stuff Angel did during AtS s1 through AtS s4 as being because of Jasmine.

I know! I've also said repeatedly that I don't make those assumptions.


Angel is Angelus with the curse and all the time and experiences he’s had while cursed.

I've always stated that I agree with that in itself.


He’s responsible for his actions. It’s not as if Angel on average will be less evil if the curse was lifted or if Angel wasn’t affected by the curse.

Ok I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that Angel is just as evil with or without a soul?

Cordelia
06-02-15, 10:25 PM
You still on this silly kick about Buffy being underage as though 16 and 17 year olds having sex with people of various ages of minority or majority isn't a trope of normality in all young adult television both then and now?




Nor can I take seriously the notion that you believe that Buffy herself was not subjectively able to consent to sex, regardless of the statute.

Statutory Rape in the state of California by legal definition:


Under California Penal Code 261.5 PC, a "statutory rape" takes place when any person engages in sexual intercourse with a person under the age of eighteen (18).1 The crime of statutory rape is also commonly referred to as "unlawful sex with a minor"...or as "unlawful sexual intercourse."

Statutory rape is a crime regardless of whether the sex was consensual...or even initiated by the minor (the supposed "victim" of the crime).2
Source: http://www.shouselaw.com/statutory_rape.html

Looking at Angel's human age alone you've got a 27 year old man with a sexual appetite for a minor of 16 along the way turned 17. In California the legal age is 18 and the commonality on television doesn't make a difference, it's still a negative message.
Had Joyce reported him (and I'm not really sure why she didn't) or Giles he would have been convicted and fined under the California Penal Code: Section 261.5 Unlawful Sexual Intercourse. Giles, as a teacher actually would have been obligated to report him but the difference is that he, unlike Joyce for a while knew Angel was more than just a man who was too old for Buffy.


(C) An adult who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor at least three years younger than the adult is liable for a civil penalty not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000).

Source: http://www.sexlaws.org/california_statutory_rape_laws
And if he were to ever leave the state of California he might have been required to register as a sex offender in his new location depending on that location's laws.

Illegal nature of it aside, 27 is still too old for an inexperienced and naive virgin like Buffy. Though Angel didn't, older men tend to take advantage of naive young girls and the amount of teen pregnancies that had occurred via sex with older men is why California's SR laws were established in 1995.

Alright so on to the intended topic, I wouldn't necessarily say Angel's soul forced him to take up heroism.
Of course his initial response was to ignore it and continue his scourge with Darla. One can't just start a new life as one does a new TV series or video game. He couldn't just walk away from the unlife he's spend a century unliving, from the one person who has embraced them and given them the world.
Not to mention, there wasn't an obvious alternative or reason. He's still a vampire. He still has to sustain himself on blood.

While it's plausible that it started out as a filler since he could not continue to be a cold blooded killer, he showed small signs of wanting redemption prior to meeting Whistler.
Recall the diner scene in 'Orpheus', season 4 of ATS, how hard he tried NOT to feed on the murder victim who was a unique temptation because being dead at another's hand it was half the guilt.
Unfortunately he lost that battle and in response he, guilt ridden subsequently plunged into a rat diet until Whistler introduced him to butcher shop blood.

Let's not forget that someone with a soul can be just as cold and remorseless as someone without (they're called sociopaths or psyhopaths). We also see Angel NOT Angelus with the urge to kill when he nearly smothers a hospitalized Wesley for kidnapping Connor.
Ergo, his soul didn't obligate him to feel guilt it just made it harder not to.

Also having occurred pre-Whistler if memory serves he'd once around the same time period as the diner rescued a woman's puppy from in front of an oncoming car, so he'd dipped his toes in clean waters before Buffy.

Personally, for me, it's pretty clear that while it was largely anchored by Cordelia, Angel truly opened up to life and redemption when Doyle showed him the whole champion thing from the right angle in ATS. When he coaxed him to become involved with the people that he helps and suggested that perhaps he needed to be saved just as much as those saved by him which is what Whistler's approach lacked.
Steering him in the direction of leeching off someone else's destiny was not the right way (this is why you'll never get me to buy that it started with Buffy, if Joss wanted it that way he supported it poorly as he did quite a few things).
He just had to grow into it. He was lost and needed to be found.

MikeB
12-03-15, 06:49 AM
Cordelia

* William Pratt was sired when he was 25 years old. Liam was sired when he was 27 years old.


Alright so on to the intended topic, I wouldn't necessarily say Angel's soul forced him to take up heroism. Well, no. Seeing Buffy and wanting to be with Buffy did.


Recall the diner scene in 'Orpheus', season 4 of ATS, how hard he tried NOT to drink the murdered man who'd presented himself pretty ideally since Angel didn't have to make the kill. It’s heavily implied that Cursed Angel let that man die so that Cursed Angel could later drink him.


* Given AtS s1-AtS s3 could have been because of Jasmine, I don’t discuss that.


* Cursed Angel’s saving a puppy in 1920s Chicago and being forced to help the Allies in World War II isn’t Cursed Angel’s ‘making the choice’ to be a good vampire. Anyway, this thread in general is based on the fact that Angel didn’t choose to be good. He was cursed.

Cordelia
17-11-17, 05:33 AM
I know this topic is old now but it's difficult to stop myself when I'm compelled to express my opinion.


Cordelia

* William Pratt was sired when he was 25 years old. Liam was sired when he was 27 years old.

Whether 25 or 27, the point is that Liam was a legal adult when he was sired so Angel's having sex with Buffy was statutory rape.



It’s heavily implied that Cursed Angel let that man die so that Cursed Angel could later drink him.

That was what I was pointing out, in this instance, the curse/his soul DID NOT force him to make a righteous choice. He didn't bother to attempt to save the man's life so that he could feel on him with less guilt or so he thought. He ached with guilt immediatly after.

I neglected to mention this before but 50's angel is rthe next strong example. He regarded the human race with utter indifference, borderline sociopathic indifference. He sat and listened to the salesman put a bullet in himself without flinching.
He then handed the entire hotel's population to the Thesulac demon after he was lynched.


* Cursed Angel’s saving a puppy in 1920s Chicago and being forced to help the Allies in World War II isn’t Cursed Angel’s ‘making the choice’ to be a good vampire. Anyway, this thread in general is based on the fact that Angel didn’t choose to be good. He was cursed.

Yes, the puppy was a choice to do something good. He could have stood there and let it get killed as he did the man in the diner or the saleman at the Hyperion.
There are people who wouldn't even consider a puppy's life as valuable as a person's.


* Given AtS s1-AtS s3 could have been because of Jasmine, I don’t discuss that.

I don't know how this relates to the topic at hand so I'm not gonna get into it, but I absolutely do not buy that Jasmine manipulated the entire 1-3 seasons od AtS.

MikeB
06-02-18, 11:55 PM
Cordelia

* I'm one of the relative few on Boards who points out that Angel statutorily raped Buffy and maintains that that was a bad thing.


There are people who wouldn't even consider a puppy's life as valuable as a person's. A puppy's life generally isn't as valuable as a person's life.


* It seems we mostly agree regarding the thread topic.

KingofCretins
07-02-18, 12:03 AM
Angel didn't choose to have a soul.

What he does with it, he chooses, as do we all.

Willow from Buffy
07-02-18, 04:29 AM
Angel chose to be 'good' so that he could date and have sex with Buffy. It wasn't merely to 'help her'.
I would call this a radical interpretation of the text, especially considering Angel's decision to leave Buffy and move to LA. However, Spike's motivation for getting his soul was clearly to be forgiven for his attempt to rape Buffy in Seeing Red.

I love a good Angel bashing as much as the next guy, but this is just silly.

MikeB
18-04-18, 07:32 PM
KingofCretins

* “Cursed Angel” is Angel/us with the curse and all the time and experiences of being cursed. Cursed Angel didn’t choose to be cursed. Angel didn’t choose to have a soul. That’s a main point of this thread.

Angel wasn’t “born” with a soul. He’s a vampire who’s evil enough that the Judge found zero humanity in Uncursed Angel.



Willow from Buffy

My quote: “Angel chose to be 'good' so that he could date and have sex with Buffy. It wasn't merely to 'help her'.”

That’s canon.

Angel left Buffy largely because he couldn’t have sex with her. Maybe watch “The Prom” (B 3.20) again. And watch “Choices” (B 3.19) again.


However, Spike's motivation for getting his soul was clearly to be forgiven for his attempt to rape Buffy in Seeing Red. I’m not sure if you’re trying to say how and why Spike got his soul is more negative for Spike compared to how and why Angel got his soul...

But Uncursed Angel killed Jenny Calender to prevent her from re-cursing him. No matter how selfish Spike’s motivations for re-ensouling himself, it is beyond extraordinary that he even wanted to re-ensoul himself.

TriBel
19-04-18, 01:37 PM
However, Spike's motivation for getting his soul was clearly to be forgiven for his attempt to rape Buffy in Seeing Red.

I don't think it was - or, if it was, it wasn't clear to me. I saw regaining the soul as twofold: a) to have an identity - to exist in positive space rather than negative space (there's a reason Clem calls him "Mr Negative" (mapped onto a Klein square he exists on the not-not axis or falls outside the parameters - that's REALLY boring :blink::sleeping:) and b) to ensure it doesn't happen again. He makes it quite clear in Beneath You (in the sense that he says it) that it's nothing to do with forgiveness:

"BUFFY: Skittish? That's not a word I would use for it. You tried to rape me. I don't have the words. SPIKE: Neither do I. I can't say sorry. Can't use forgive me. All I can say is: Buffy, I've changed". In the absence of language, there is only the real of the physical world*. He shows his remorse/regret through the deed. The problem with this is, the viewer inevitably brings the deed back into language in order to impose meaning on the text (without language thought is nebulous). It's the reason S7 is so open to interpretation (and the reason it isn't) ;) . It's not just Sunnydale that disappears into an abyss - it's the surety of meaning itself.

*It's probably why he hits Faith in Touched: she puts an embargo on speech.

Stoney
19-04-18, 02:37 PM
I'd say it's all of these things but it does include forgiveness too. I think soulless Spike was very much motivated by doing what he thought would make him more acceptable to Buffy, based on all that she'd said over the years (and within S6 specifically) and all that he'd seen between her/Angel to lead him to link forgiveness/acceptance with becoming souled.


"SPIKE: Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev— (looks away) to be a kind of man.

SPIKE: She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved." - (Beneath You)

TriBel
19-04-18, 03:28 PM
SPIKE: Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev— (looks away) to be a kind of man. SPIKE: She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved." - (Beneath You)

Fair enough :) but my argument here would be that I'm not entirely sure who the "she" is he's referring to. His ramblings in the basement suggest he's slipping in and out of time-frames; the reference to "Engine" suggests a metaphor related to the Industrial Revolution (referenced in FD by Buffy). It's a church dedicated to the Mother - we see an illuminated icon of the Madonna and child. He's draped on a crucifix - a sacrifice made by a son. While specific parts of his speech are directed at Buffy ("service the girl"), parts of it are directed elsewhere : "It's what you wanted, right? (looking at the ceiling) It's what you wanted, right? (presses his fingers to his temples, looks down, and walks toward the altar). And—and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did...everyone I— and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath—beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go... go... (looks back over his shoulder to Buffy) to hell".

There's the automatic presumption it's God (above) he's talking to but, as above, the church appears to be dedicated to Mary. Something similar happens in the Mission, which has the same icon and a statue that looks suspiciously like the Madonna. ANDREW (rhythmically) I spy with my little eye something that begins with a "T." SPIKE (rolls his eyes) Tapestry. ANDREW (smiles) Hey, good one. How did you—SPIKE Tapestry's the only thing in the whole bloody room.
ANDREW: Ah...so say you, but I say look deeper. (rolls over onto his back, looks at the ceiling). SPIKE: I'll look deep into your jugular is what I'll look at". (all suggestions welcome as to what's above that begins with T. :confused: Note: in Giles, Roux keeps telling us to "look up").

In short, what I'm suggesting is, just as Buffy (to my mind) is conflating Spike/Angel in her compassion, so he's conflating Buffy and Anne in his desire for forgiveness (it's Anne he apologises to).

betta
19-04-18, 05:02 PM
I would call this a radical interpretation of the text, especially considering Angel's decision to leave Buffy and move to LA.

I love a good Angel bashing as much as the next guy, but this is just silly.

Maybe it's a radical interpretation - but there is some truth in it: the moment Angel saw Lolita Buffy, he wanted her, not just help her. I rewatched Angel recently, and the more I watch it, the more I think it’s just gross how Angel plays Buffy:

Angel: I did a lot of thinking today. I really can’t be around you. Because when I am…

Buffy: Hey, no big. Water… over the bridge, under the bridge…

Angel: When I am all I can ever think about is how badly I want to kiss you.

Buffy: …over the dam… Kiss me?

Angel: I’m older than you, and this can’t ever… I better go.

Buffy: H-how much older?

Angel: I should…

Buffy: …go… You said…


Angel sleeping by her bed works like a charm for both Buffy and Willow (still naive and dreammy teenagers),


Willow: That is so romantic! Did you, uh… I mean, did he, uh…

Buffy: Perfect gentleman.


and strangely enough is Xander who is the wiser:


Buffy, c'mon, wake up and smell the seduction. It’s the oldest trick in the book.


Yes, it is. What Angel should have done in both occasions – if his intention was really not to get into her pants – was to LEAVE. Talk to her another day, not in her bedroom, not by her bed. The excuse he couldn't go because he was just a "helpless boy" who couldn't "defend himself from the mean vampires" was lame; but of course, he didn't want to get cautght about his big lie: he himself was a vampire.

I don't know. It's been a long time since anybody's been in a position to let me know - wow, master of manipulation, don't tell me Angel didn't know exactly the effect this words would have on teen Buffy, how romantic she would think that he hadn't had sex with another woman for "a long time", how chaste he was. Angel wasn't lying, but it wasn't necessary to tell Buffy this while lying by her bed; sometimes the truth are used for manipulation, too.

If all this was about "falling in love at the first sight", as Angel claimed it was, he loved Buffy and wanted to have sex with her.

Stoney
19-04-18, 08:16 PM
TriBel I can see that he can be talking of another, but I think he is at least talking inclusive of Buffy, if not solely about her. His quest for his soul is so intrinsically bound to her and wanting to be with her I can't pull her out of the meaning entirely when he is talking about why he went for his soul and when he is more lucid in the season he talks far more directly and clearly about having done it for Buffy. He doesn't try to put words to asking for forgiveness from her, he did as you say take action instead and so the Buffy of it is the main motivator in how I see it (although I do think there were other things tied within it all in the a) and b) you mentioned previously and in terms of perhaps some wider forgiveness from others in there too).

EDIT: He does also then ask her "So everything's OK, right?" and whether they can rest now after too. Both questions present her judgement of whether he is forgiven and if his quest is complete as key, or even final, to me. :noidea:

I wish I didn't refuse to watch things out of chronological sequence because I really want to watch the scene with Andrew now and try to find other things beginning with 't'. :p

EDIT, EDIT: Oooo, oooo, 'thread'. :nod:

EDIT, EDIT, EDIT: I don't need to see the episode, I've hours of experience of playing I Spy... 'texture', 'trousers', 'toes', 'teeth', 'tongue', 'thumb', 'trainers' (on Andrew possibly) or maybe Andrew is au fait enough with tapestries to be able to identify a 'twill' weave or a 'twining' weave.

Yeah I'm done. :xd

TriBel
19-04-18, 09:31 PM
EDIT, EDIT, EDIT: I don't need to see the episode, I've hours of experience of playing I Spy... 'texture', 'trousers', 'toes', 'teeth', 'tongue', 'thumb', 'trainers' (on Andrew possibly) or maybe Andrew is au fait enough with tapestries to be able to identify a 'twill' weave or a 'twining' weave.

:)...and then...sigh. You don't know how much this has preoccupied me. And you're missing the point that it has to be up - on the ceiling - so I doubt Andrew's trainers count! I've just googled "Architectural terms - ceilings" and found "Truss": a structure that "consists of two-force members only, where the members are organized so that the assemblage as a whole behaves as a single object". I could make a metaphor of it - particularly since Spike brings the roof down but it's pushing it even for me. ;) Would Andrew even know the word "Truss"? Sigh...:sadwalk:

Hey...my signature's appeared! Good init? :p I stole it from Toni Morrison's Jazz. :)

Stoney
19-04-18, 10:08 PM
And you're missing the point that it has to be up - on the ceiling - so I doubt Andrew's trainers count! I've just googled "Architectural terms - ceilings" and found "Truss": a structure that "consists of two-force members only, where the members are organized so that the assemblage as a whole behaves as a single object". I could make a metaphor of it - particularly since Spike brings the roof down but it's pushing it even for me. ;) Would Andrew even know the word "Truss"? Sigh...:sadwalk:

When Andrew started the I Spy he wasn't looking up at the ceiling but according to the transcript was lying on his belly so I can use anything in the room as he obviously was if it was indeed something 'above' that he had looked at and chosen that began with 't' or he's cheating, or you are. :p

TriBel
19-04-18, 10:17 PM
When Andrew started the I Spy he wasn't looking up at the ceiling but according to the transcript was lying on his belly so I can use anything in the room as he obviously was if it was indeed something 'above' that he had looked at and chosen that began with 't' or he's cheating, or you are. :p

He was bluffing...he rolled over and looked up to give Spike a clue. :) Wish somebody would give me a clue.:sadwalk:

Stoney
19-04-18, 11:03 PM
Or to mislead him. Point still stands it was possibly something that he wasn't looking at when he started the I Spy. I WIN! :p So trainers, if he's wearing them still counts, as does all the other fabulous ideas I had. I rock at I Spy, kneel at my feet. :2party: