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View Full Version : It's all about the 'shipping anyway, right?



KingofCretins
11-12-07, 04:27 AM
A lot of fan interest and speculation about Season 8 is fueled by 'shipping speculation, so I figured it would be interesting to evaluate the possible 'shippy developments in the serious on an "oh no... please no" basis.

So, from the list of plausible (based on the whole series) or teased (already this season) and other random 'ships, pick the handful that just make you say "not that, anything but that!"

Nostalgia
11-12-07, 05:26 AM
Half this list is filled with ships' I am dying to see die.

Buffy with a woman at this point would just ruin everything about the character, the show, and the meaning:down: . Plus, it's not going to happen..

Faith with Giles is just wrong on so many levels, simply because it diminishes Buffy and Giles' relationship in the worst way possible.. :down:

Xander and Dawn? Sorry, but that was a fictional daydream in season 5 that just doesn't need to get revisited. Going from a 1000 demon to a 19 year old girl? Eww... Dawn and main character= wrong. Even more.. Dawn + 26-28 year old = puke.

The rest, although somewhat each controversial.. don't bother me too much. Bring em' on! :xd :2party:

sherrilina
11-12-07, 05:49 AM
Xander and Dawn? Sorry, but that was a fictional daydream in season 5 that just doesn't need to get revisited. Going from a 1000 demon to a 19 year old girl? Eww... Dawn and main character= wrong. Even more.. Dawn + 26-28 year old = puke.

Yeah, I do think Xander is a little old for Dawn (in mind and body, to rebut arguments about vampires being "too old" as well), and the fact that they seem to have such a big bro/little sis dynamic to me, and that Xander likes Buffy, makes it seem kind of wrong to me--it'd be like Spike/Dawn happening--I like their relationship and interaction the way it is!

And the same goes for Buffy/Xander--I like them as friends--sorry KoC! :p I don't know why, but I just don't like the idea of them being romantically involved, esp. at this point in time....I feel like the point where it might have been possible has passed, and that Buffy has been thinking of him like a brother for too long for her to suddenly view him as something more....it just seems weird.

Though I'm more on the fence about that than X/D...;)

Veverka
11-12-07, 07:13 AM
The only ship I absolutely don't want to see is Buffy/Willow. Much as I like the occasional fanfic about these two, it's not one I have any desire to see in real life, ah, sorry, canon. I just don't. That ship has sailed as far as I'm concerned.

As for Xander Dawn- I have no hate for it, but it seems unnecessary- my choice of Dawn partners is Faith anyways- and I like Buffy/Xander as an idea.

Anon
11-12-07, 07:56 AM
Half this list is filled with ships' I am dying to see die.

Buffy with a woman at this point would just ruin everything about the character, the show, and the meaning:down: . Plus, it's not going to happen..Well, if Satsu did a love spell or something... Admittedly they've done that one a few times now, but it would be a new variation on the theme.


Xander and Dawn? Sorry, but that was a fictional daydream in season 5 that just doesn't need to get revisited. Going from a 1000 demon to a 19 year old girl? Eww... DawnDawn's what, 18 now? That should be old enough to date whoever she wants to.

Wolfie Gilmore
11-12-07, 10:08 AM
I don't really have any ships I actively don't want to see. I mean, some would be poor choices, but I don't think they'd go there (eg Buffy/Willow). So, because I don't have any fear they'd do it, I don't feel any virulent hatred of the idea. What with fear leading to anger, anger leads to hate, first you get the women then you...etc

litzie
11-12-07, 10:30 AM
The only ship I absolutely don't want to see is Buffy/Willow. Much as I like the occasional fanfic about these two, it's not one I have any desire to see in real life, ah, sorry, canon. I just don't. That ship has sailed as far as I'm concerned.

As for Xander Dawn- I have no hate for it, but it seems unnecessary- my choice of Dawn partners is Faith anyways- and I like Buffy/Xander as an idea.
I sometimes feel like the comics are the chance to do stuff thats...cannon only to a certain extent. I can't really see them doing any buffy/willow ('cept they'll probably imply a bit of slash, as has been their tendency). But GOD would I love some dawn/faith. I want the resolution of the dawn-as-giant story to be about her coming out somehow (and that's why she wanted to tell willow as opposed to buffy/has been so secretive about it...also, sidenote, but I read in one of the fan letters at the backs of the issues that someone thought it was a bit lame that they're doing another 'first time having sex sucks' metaphor (and a weird one at that: 'sex makes you big?'), and this would totally alleviate that! ;)). I dunno that they'll take that tack...but I would really enjoy it.


Buffy with a woman at this point would just ruin everything about the character, the show, and the meaning . Plus, it's not going to happen.
I think that it's precisely because we're at 'this point' that they can do whatever they want in this regard. I think they have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't have to a) be a man, b) be macho, or c) be a lesbian, in order to be a hero or a leader. But to say that buffy can't be with a woman because it would ruin everything is a bit reminiscent of Joss's comment about it being ridiculous that he couldn't kill Tara because she was gay. It's like...somehow we've come out the other side and now you can't be a lesbian and a hero..I dunno. Not articulating this very well. And it's a fairly moot point, as I think Buffy's pretty dang straight. But...on principal.

KingofCretins
11-12-07, 11:18 AM
I have to take a second to appreciate that the only 'ship with no votes of disapproval right now is the one between Xander and the woman arguably (at this point) most likely to turn out to be evil.

Sigh.


Yeah, I do think Xander is a little old for Dawn (in mind and body, to rebut arguments about vampires being "too old" as well), and the fact that they seem to have such a big bro/little sis dynamic to me, and that Xander likes Buffy, makes it seem kind of wrong to me--it'd be like Spike/Dawn happening--I like their relationship and interaction the way it is!

I mentioned Xander/Dawn simply because they are both available characters and because I know there was already a bandwagon there. I won't say it's no good at all -- their ages are actually probably closer to 25 and 19, -ish -- but I'd call it unlikely if only because he's still calling her 'Dawnie'. That's not a deal-breaker, because I could see 'Dawnie' also being an endearment one might use in a relationship, but the history is there to make it more familial.

One thing about the Xander-Dawn dynamic they are lucky to have is that it can really be nudged in any number of directions -- it lends itself equally to romance as it does to a surrogate father thing (to parallel her thinking of Willow as a mom). I would not say no to a Xander/Dawn direction if its what Joss wanted to go with.

Spike/Dawn is a pretty believable thing, btw -- we even have a pretty awesome fic on this very site about it.


I think that it's precisely because we're at 'this point' that they can do whatever they want in this regard. I think they have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't have to a) be a man, b) be macho, or c) be a lesbian, in order to be a hero or a leader. But to say that buffy can't be with a woman because it would ruin everything is a bit reminiscent of Joss's comment about it being ridiculous that he couldn't kill Tara because she was gay. It's like...somehow we've come out the other side and now you can't be a lesbian and a hero..I dunno. Not articulating this very well. And it's a fairly moot point, as I think Buffy's pretty dang straight. But...on principal.

I don't think there'd be anyway to avoid the net effect of having Buffy be... bi-curious... in which there's not an implicit idea that a strong female superhero type must be a lesbian. Which, given that it's usually the instant misogynist assumption about strong women, makes that about the worst possible message for Joss to let this story communicate, since it would confirm a really poor stereotype.

That said, I actually wonder if they might be going to the Buffy/Willow place. It was just a hunch. Not sure. I'd have the biggest problem with it on a character interaction basis. Unlike Buffy/Xander or Xander/Willow, which were relationship possibilities that were hard-wired into the group dynamic from the very beginning, if Buffy and Willow were to get together, I think the feeling of rejection would be so profound and implicit for poor Xander I don't know what he'd do.

litzie
11-12-07, 11:35 AM
I don't think there'd be anyway to avoid the net effect of having Buffy be... bi-curious... in which there's not an implicit idea that a strong female superhero type must be a lesbian. Which, given that it's usually the instant misogynist assumption about strong women, makes that about the worst possible message for Joss to let this story communicate, since it would confirm a really poor stereotype.
I so disagree. First, Buffy is obviously not a lesbian regardless of whether she might go for a woman now. At most she'd be bi, and such a turn would not invalidate her other relationships, etc. So I don't think it would have real retro-active effect at this point. And also, I feel like the comics are a bit pseudo cannon (at least to me - very take 'em or leave 'em in terms of a canonical structure of the text of buffy as a whole).

Implicit in the stereotype that woman can't be strong and straight are all sorts of stereotypes about women AND about lesbians - that somehow, being a lesbian invalidates your status as a woman to a certain extent (ok, I know that sounds weird, but basically what I mean is that because you like girls, you're mannish, and therefore cannot represent woman-kind in any stereotype-breaking way)...that lesbians are always butch/macho/man-like... Honestly, it's very similar to the joss comment about tara's death, because the basis of the 'tragic gay characters/gay relationships must always end in death' stereotype is very similar to that of the 'strong women must be lesbians' stereotype - a marginalization of homosexuality in fiction. (obviously, espec in the latter case, sexism as well - but that's kind of the point I'm trying to make here)

ok, now I've confused even myself a bit, so...

Wolfie Gilmore
11-12-07, 11:43 AM
don't think there'd be anyway to avoid the net effect of having Buffy be... bi-curious... in which there's not an implicit idea that a strong female superhero type must be a lesbian.

I wouldn't get that at all from Buffy driving...non-stick. Automatic?

However, I would get a feeling of where the fck did that come from. I know that people's sexuality does evolve over time, but given that there's been NO indication of Buffy fancying women before the age of whatever she'd be when it happened, mid 20s (how old is Buffy now, if this is set a year and a half after chosen? 25?). So, given that she's from LA, not the most repressive place in the world, and she's fairly tapped into the old sex stuff, that she'd have had some suspicions that she was into girls...and particularly Willow...by that time. Though, who knows?

In terms of the message it sends it might be a bit annoying from the point of view of another person being "gay now"...when actually, you quite often know from a pretty young age that you're into a certain sex. Not everyone does...but, if we're talking representation (which we don't have to, but since you were saying that it was annoying from a gives the impression all leaders must be lesbians thang, just thought I'd put another spin on the representation issue)...not all women who end up with women "suddenly decide" that's what they want, some know all along!

Mind you, perhaps Willow's magic is making her super-sexually-magnetic! Or perhaps Buffy digs that weird green medieval dress (well, she has made some strange fashion choices herself in her time...).

KingofCretins
11-12-07, 11:52 AM
Valid arguments, both, but I still think that first and foremost that Buffy/Willow would leave Xander further lost in the woods as a cut-off part of the group than either woman getting involved with him would. I mean, Willow and Buffy both undoubtedly made their peace with the idea of the other one dating Xander within the first few months of the bonds forming -- Willow, because she loved Xander and therefore reasoned that Buffy might eventually as well, since she's the one he wanted, and Buffy, because she was an active supporter of Xander/Willow for a long time.

Like I said, those are hard-wired into the dynamic. Buffy and Willow get together, and they basically go where Xander can't follow and he's monumentally buttmonkeyed in a way that he's never been buttmonkeyed.

Also, gotta say, if Buffy and Willow get together, the whole bonding scene in 8.03 takes a sort of... I dunno, nasty vibe. It's one thing for Willow to be arm and arm, knowingly teasing Xander for what I, at the time, inferred to be her knowing he's still into Buffy -- it's quite something else to read that scene in the context of Willow being into Buffy herself. Her Xander jabs become... a little mean, frankly, in that kind of reading.

Enisy
11-12-07, 03:40 PM
I voted for:

Willow/Buffy & Buffy/Satsu: Would be a retcon of the worst kind, in regards to Buffy's sexuality.

Willow/Satsu: We already had our Willow/Secondary Character 'ship in Willow/Kennedy, and that didn't go over too well.

Xander/Dawn: Squicky in that Xander still seems to view Dawn as his little sister.

Giles/Faith: It would probably paint Giles's relationships with his Slayers in a questionable light, and it would definitely upset the Giles/Buffy relationship even more, given Buffy's issues with Faith.

KingofCretins
11-12-07, 03:45 PM
I should have made this a public poll, so I could take all the anti-Buffy/Xander votes off my Christmas list :)

Really, though, I'm surprised that's running in a tie for second with *Faith/Giles* behind Buffy/Willow as the most unwelcome 'ship. I rather expected that framing the question this way would yield evidence that there is great acceptance of that idea than for other possibilities.

Enisy
11-12-07, 04:04 PM
Well, for all the people who dislike Xander/Buffy, there are also a lot of people who ship them, which can't be said for Giles/Faith, to name an example. Blind hatred isn't good for a ship, but controversy is. I can't feel bad about Spike/Buffy getting a lot of votes in the "Worst Ship" polls, when, at the same time, it tops the "Best Ship" polls. And I can't compare that (or Xander/Buffy, to get back on topic) to ships like Giles/Faith or Connor/Cordelia, which have 1 supporter to 100 detractors.

Koos
11-12-07, 04:51 PM
There wasn't a ship which I would vote against. I choosed for Faith/Giles because it doesn't feel appropiate, but I wouldn't really mind it as well.

Nina
11-12-07, 05:32 PM
Well, I don't read the comics ... I know I should before I give an opinion ... but I couldn't help myself. :D

I picked all the relations with two scoobies together. I just see them as friends ... they are so close and if they start dating eachother, there is always a lonely third and if the relation doesn't work, there is a chance that the friendship is damaged as well. If I would have to choose one of the three possibilities it would be Willow & Xander. But I don't like any of them.

And I also voted for Dawn & Xander, why? I think it's well said many times in this thread. Xander is her big brother. The brother-sister vibe is just really strong. The age difference doesn't bother me BTW.

And about Buffy in a relationship with a girl; I can see her experimenting but I think she is so into men, a girl isn't really an option. She never showed any interest in a girl that way. Besides, another bisexual/gay character? We already have Willow who is; gay now!, we know that Angel is bisexual and the same for Faith and (probably) Spike. And ofcourse there is Andrew who is (almost certain) also gay. So I think we have enough bisexual/gay characters in the verse.

Koos
11-12-07, 07:34 PM
we know that Angel is bisexual and the same for Faith and (probably) Spike.

I think you saw more in the show than I did. Much more.

Sosa lola
11-12-07, 08:43 PM
Can you please take off my votes? I voted for the wrong ships, I thought this was for the "what ships do you wish to happen" and I voted for Xander/Buffy and Willow/Other, which are ships that I want to happen :(

Shin
11-12-07, 09:24 PM
We know that Angel is bisexual and the same for Faith and (probably) Spike.
Please tell me. When did we hear Angel, Faith or Spike were bisexual. The whole Angel and Spike thing was mostly a joke and even if it were a real expiriment, it probably didn't fare well, since both of them looked unsettled at the thought. Mostly neither Angel nor Spike ever showed an interest in another guy. Faith never really showed interest in women, did she?

Nina
11-12-07, 09:52 PM
I think you saw more in the show than I did. Much more.


It wasn't that obvious, but it was more than once suggested in the shows.


CONNOR
Do you spend all your time making out with other vampires, like in Anne Rice novels?

ANGEL
No. UhI used to, but...

The vampires in the books of Anne Rice, are bisexual. I think in this quote Angel says that he had sex with men and women. And we have to confirm that by the next quote:


SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...

And don't forget the scene in TQIQ where Darla and Drusilla are more than just friendly. Clearly vampires are bisexual. Angel also never denies his attraction to men when somebody thinks/suggests that. Angel is always quick with denying about things that aren't true or statements which are embarrassing him.
And ofcourse the hate towards the church. Angelus made it a quest to make fun of religion and their ideas, he had probably sex with men just because of his dislike towards the Catholic Church.
Spike's quote is telling us that he had sex with Angelus once, I'm not sure if Spike would have sex with other men, he was pretty loyal to Drusilla I guess. But he isn't disgusted by the idea of sex with men. Angelus who doesn't have problems with disloyalty, had no bounds and had sex with lots of vampires and demons. And because of the 'vampires are bisexual' thing, I don't think he had a problem with male sexbuddies.

And there are a couple of hints about Faith's sexuality. She is clearly attracted to Buffy in season 3, and when she takes over Buffy's body in season 4, there are some small hints. And I believe there was something about making Willow and Faith a couple in season 7, but I'm not sure where I saw that.

It's all an interpretation of lines and scenes I guess.

KingofCretins
11-12-07, 10:01 PM
Faith does explicitly no sale sleeping with Genevieve for her mission in 8.06, for what that's worth. Of course, in the "Enemies" shooting script, she doesn't kiss Buffy on the *forehead*...

Jenni Lou
11-12-07, 10:29 PM
I voted Xander/Buffy and Xander/Dawn. :D

I've always had a small place for a X/D ship off in the future and I am so surprised the poll results are so high for the pairing! Honestly, it's not a bad match once Dawn is out f the jailbait market. ;)

KingofCretins
11-12-07, 10:34 PM
The point of the poll is to vote for the things you *don't* want to see, I hope everybody was clear on that...

I'm actually open to Xander/Dawn, but they'd have to work real hard to make sure that their connection isn't as fraternal, and even paternal, as it has seemed at other points. I mentioned earlier that he called her Dawnie... but that was in a conversation that took place with her Giant Nakedness just on the other side of the branches from him.

I'll turn it over to the women -- which men are you *most* comfortable with bathing naked in front of, with only his honor and averted eyes (and, I suppose, the implicit threat of being smooshed) keeping him from gawking? Are those the brother type, uncle/father type, or dating pool type of guys?

Jenni Lou
11-12-07, 10:40 PM
:doh:

I read posts and stuff. :/

I blame my being sick. I got confuuused.

Wow, I am surprised there are so many against B/X.

I was gonna edit my votes with my nifty mod powers but for some reason I can't find an edit function. Which is weird because I know I could do it on the old board when I was modding there. Oh well.

Nostalgia
12-12-07, 12:28 AM
Faith was definitely bi-curious.. I think that was completely evident in the show.

For Spike, Angel, and vampires in general.. I don't think there was enough proof at all to go as any past as to comedically suggesting it.

I truly don't know if I could continue enjoying the show if Buffy ever became a lesbian. I think Kings suggests this perfectly with how it would completely play a stereotype that the show was aiming to defy. It also would diminish her character in terms of making sense once so ever.. considering she never approved of Willow's relationship until season 6 when she actually got to know Tara. I am surprised I was more upset with Buffy/Satsu than Buffy/Willow.. I guess because Satsu kissed Buffy.. but if Buffy and Willow began experimenting.. I just wouldn't be able to contain myself... simply because of course for one, hurting a friendship of three by intertwining a relationship into it is never really good.. as others have pointed out. Second, Buffy and Willow are too good of friends to actually hit any kind of intimacy. I think it is safe to say that this is is my equivalence to Kings' fear of Xander betraying them.

EDIT: To Anon's comment.. Yeah, it may be legit and legal.. but it doesn't mean it's not sickening, disturbing, and just plain gross.

sherrilina
12-12-07, 01:37 AM
It also would diminish her character in terms of making sense once so ever.. considering she never approved of Willow's relationship until season 6 when she actually got to know Tara.
That's a good point (though I think she accepted W/T as early as season 5, even if she didn't get Tara as a person), the way Buffy freaked out so much when she found out that Willow was gay definitely seems to rule out her being bi-curious IMO--otherwise she'd feel sympathetic and interested, not weirded out!

I guess I would really hate W/B and any other B/girl relationship or F/G, but I didn't even consider them to be serious so I didn't vote for them.....

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 01:45 AM
I guess I would really hate W/B and any other B/girl relationship or F/G, but I didn't even consider them to be serious so I didn't vote for them.....

Plus, we all know that Faith is the only woman for Buffy :)

Sherrilina, don't forget that you won't accept Buffy/Xander because you don't like me, or puppies, or Christmas :)

sherrilina
12-12-07, 01:48 AM
Sherrilina, don't forget that you won't accept Buffy/Xander because you don't like me, or puppies, or Christmas :)
Well I already mentioned B/X lol, and you know the latter three aren't true! ;)

I just have a feeling against it, I don't know why, and it doesn't make sense given my ships in other fandoms, but there you go! *shrugs*

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 01:53 AM
The poll is actually pretty screwy -- there are at least two people who say they voted for Buffy/Xander because they *like* the idea, so who knows what else happened. At least Xander/Faith is getting some love.

Nostalgia
12-12-07, 02:00 AM
I honestly don't see too much problem with Buffy/Xander.. it would be a love interest between the core friendship.. but Buffy and Xander could spark my interest.. I'd just have to warm up to it. I'm interested in seeing whether I'd like it or not.

Thomas
12-12-07, 02:03 AM
I'm probably the only one but I'd like to see Willow and Kennedy's relationship explored further.

As for Xander/Buffy, I would be interested to see how it goes.

vampmogs
12-12-07, 05:59 AM
It also would diminish her character in terms of making sense once so ever.. considering she never approved of Willow's relationship until season 6 when she actually got to know Tara.


Huh? When did Buffy really ever have a problem with Willow/Tara because they were both girls? Buffy was clearly shocked by the news when Willow told her in season four but it is to be expected, this huge thing happened. Willow then accuses it of her again but I think this is more Willow's problem than it is Buffys, it was never confirmed Buffy actually felt this way. After that it was really never brought up again, in 'Family' both Buffy and Xander don't really understand the relationship because they don't understand *Tara* but not because it was a lesbian relationship.

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 06:02 AM
And, in "Family" both Buffy and Xander agreed on one thing about Tara -- she's super nice :)

It's a long walk from saying (as we know to the best of any indication from the show) that Buffy has no same-sex tendencies to saying she actively disapproves of such tendencies in others.

vampmogs
12-12-07, 06:12 AM
And, in "Family" both Buffy and Xander agreed on one thing about Tara -- she's super nice :)

It's a long walk from saying (as we know to the best of any indication from the show) that Buffy has no same-sex tendencies to saying she actively disapproves of such tendencies in others.

Agreed. I also think it is jumping the gun to say that any problem Buffy had with Willow/Tara's relationship is because it is a gay relationship. There are many other reasons she could have had a problem with it, as for example loosing her best friend to someone else, not liking Tara, not liking how Willow acts around Tara ect. Not saying any of this is true but there are plenty of reasons why Buffy could have had a problem with the Willow/Tara relationship other than the fact it was a gay relationship. In the show it was because she didn't really *get* Tara at the time, not because Tara was a lesbian.

sherrilina
12-12-07, 06:54 AM
Agreed. I also think it is jumping the gun to say that any problem Buffy had with Willow/Tara's relationship is because it is a gay relationship. There are many other reasons she could have had a problem with it, as for example loosing her best friend to someone else, not liking Tara, not liking how Willow acts around Tara ect. Not saying any of this is true but there are plenty of reasons why Buffy could have had a problem with the Willow/Tara relationship other than the fact it was a gay relationship. In the show it was because she didn't really *get* Tara at the time, not because Tara was a lesbian.
I'm not saying she was a homophobe or anything, I'm just saying that her wigged out reaction to the news that Willow was gay (the way she nonchalantly keeps calling Willow "Will" at first, etc, and then the later comparison to how dating monsters freaks Riley out, and now Buffy understands this feeling). This suggests to me that she definitely didn't have any gay tendencies herself, our she would not have been so freaked out (I think she even uses that word herself in the episode to describe her initial reaction to the news) by hearing that Willow was gay....it probably would have been a more relieved "wow, really? I think I might have some gay tendencies too! Can I discuss it with you?" thing....

vampmogs
12-12-07, 07:01 AM
I'm not saying she was a homophobe or anything, I'm just saying that her wigged out reaction to the news that Willow was gay (the way she nonchalantly keeps calling Willow "Will" at first, etc, and then the later comparison to how dating monsters freaks Riley out, and now Buffy understands this feeling). This suggests to me that she definitely didn't have any gay tendencies herself, our she would not have been so freaked out (I think she even uses that word herself in the episode to describe her initial reaction to the news) by hearing that Willow was gay....it probably would have been a more relieved "wow, really? I think I might have some gay tendencies too! Can I discuss it with you?" thing....


Oh yeah I agree, Buffy doesn't have any gay tendencies as far as I can see. My point was more that she was just so shocked Willow did because she'd never seen it before and didn't know how to react to the news which she obviously wasn't expecting. But yeah we pretty much agree she didn't have any gay tendencies and wasn't a homophobe. :)

Wolfie Gilmore
12-12-07, 09:18 AM
...the way Buffy freaked out so much when she found out that Willow was gay definitely seems to rule out her being bi-curious IMO--otherwise she'd feel sympathetic and interested, not weirded out!


Oh, I don't think so at all - you can totally be gay and be afraid/uncomfortable with the idea. HOWEVER, don't think Buffy digs chicks because...well, we've never seen her doing so. So, while I don't think her reaction to Willow, of surprise, meant she wasn't at all gay herself...I think the fact that she wasn't gay made her look not gay (cf sweater/purple/fat) :D

vampmogs
12-12-07, 09:23 AM
Gotta say I'm surprised that more people would rather Xander/Willow than Xander/Buffy. Not because I like the idea of Buffy/Xander or even dislike the idea of Xander/Willow (I actually loved the idea of these two together) but just because I didn't think people would be so open to Willow having a relationship with a male.

I personally view Willow as bisexual so I don't think it'd be odd, but I've come across a lot of fans who think it'd be an insult to Tara and to the gay community or that Joss would be copping out. Personally, I don't agree with any of these but they are popular opinions. I didn't think something like Buffy/Xander would be more disliked than a Willow/Xander ship.

Wolfie Gilmore
12-12-07, 09:29 AM
Gotta say I'm surprised that more people would rather Xander/Willow than Xander/Buffy. Not because I like the idea of Buffy/Xander or even dislike the idea of Xander/Willow (I actually loved the idea of these two together) but just because I didn't think people would be so open to Willow having a relationship with a male.

I personally view Willow as bisexual so I don't think it'd be odd, but I've come across a lot of fans who think it'd be an insult to Tara and to the gay community or that Joss would be copping out. Personally, I don't agree with any of these but they are popular opinions. I didn't think something like Buffy/Xander would be more disliked than a Willow/Xander ship.

I think making her "gay now" was the cop-out actually. I'd welcome a bisexual character who's not a crazy slutbomb of badness, or just doing it to titilate men - and I have a feeling that the reason they avoided making her bi was because they thought that it wouldn't be taken seriously or would just be for turning on the boys...though, not sure so maybe I'm being harsh.

I know that people do have fairly large shifts in sexual terms, but still....the gay now thing never quite worked for me. However, since they've gone that route, I feel that putting Willow with a guy would make her seem...I don't know, disingenuous perhaps?

I'm trying to think if there's a plausible ship that I'd dislike. I think I might dislike Dawn/Xander, just in a slightly icky "they're like siblings/uncle and niece" kind of a way. But if they did it well, I'm sure I'd buy into it in the end.

Sosa lola
12-12-07, 09:52 AM
Wow, I am surprised there are so many against B/X.

My and your votes were pro :( I thought it was for the what's the ship you want to happen poll, so I voted for Buffy/Xander right away. Didn't know it was for the opposite.

ykickamoocow
12-12-07, 10:15 AM
I voted Xander/Buffy and Xander/Dawn. :D

I've always had a small place for a X/D ship off in the future and I am so surprised the poll results are so high for the pairing! Honestly, it's not a bad match once Dawn is out f the jailbait market. ;)

Or Joss could turn the comics into a porn film and have Buffy/Xander/Dawn :D

litzie
12-12-07, 10:49 AM
Or Joss could turn the comics into a porn film and have Buffy/Xander/Dawn :D

And now (minus the Xander part of the sandwich) we have hit on the MOST disturbing possible relationship for me. That and Buffy/Giles. I have to say Faith/Giles doesn't bother me nearly as much because they've never really had that father-daughter thing going, even with this last issue where they probably got the closest. However from the perspective of the other characters (specifically buffy), I think it would be terrible.

I think the ship I'd want to see the most would be Faith/Dawn. Because I've always felt that Buffy/faith femslash only worked from the faith angle, that a lot of her jealousy/envy/bitterness was tied up in romantic feelings for buffy that were not reciprocated. I would definitely argue that this was an intended reading of their relationship, though obv some may disagree. Anyway, I think Faith/Dawn would be interesting precisely because it could start out for faith as kinda being all about buffy...which, as we were talking about on the issue thread, would totally be a new direction to take buffy and faith's relationship!

I also really like the idea of Xander/renee. I know KoC thinks she's the 'inside man,' but I don't actually care...I think they have a cute rapport, and that such a turn would be much more interesting if she and xander were dating. If she turns out to be a traitor with the way things stand right now...I won't care all that much.

ykickamoocow
12-12-07, 11:04 AM
Dawn's what, 18 now? That should be old enough to date whoever she wants to.

Im not a huge fan of the Xander/Dawn idea but the age difference has nothing to do with it. If fact im surprised people have a problem with that (considering Dawn is 18 and Xander is around 26) while people dont have a problem with Buffy/Angel as Buffy is 17 and Angel is over 240 years old.

vampmogs
12-12-07, 11:31 AM
Im not a huge fan of the Xander/Dawn idea but the age difference has nothing to do with it. If fact im surprised people have a problem with that (considering Dawn is 18 and Xander is around 26) while people dont have a problem with Buffy/Angel as Buffy is 17 and Angel is over 240 years old.

The Buffy/Angel thing and other relationships with similair issues are being discussed right now in the 'Bangel Revelation' thread :)

I think the only difference with Xander/Dawn is that he has known her since she was at least 12 right? He viewed her as a little girl for so long which might make it a little weird, but she isn't a little girl anymore so I don't have a problem with it.

NileQT87
12-12-07, 11:39 AM
even worse! dawn was 10 in season 1! yet, i still kinda root for dawn/spike.

too bad that "buffy: the animated series" never got up and running. it was supposed to be episode 1x07.5 + dawn.

and yeah, i ditto all the people saying how bizarre it would be if buffy suddenly got retconned into being bisexual. that's just too far. i think satsu kissing buffy was taking it too far. does buffy really need satsu chasing her around only to find out that buffy's firmly in the 'i strictly date males--2 of which were vampires' category? just seems kinda useless.

and NO on the xander/buffy. however, i'm all for xander/willow. been waiting for that one since season 1. all for it. or oz. don't mind that route either. tara could come back for all i care. let's just avoid willow/kennedy and xander/buffy.

strangely... i wouldn't mind giles/faith. i remember when i tried to tell my mom the synopses for the comics, saying there was a faith/giles arc. she asked me if giles and faith were together. i was, like, 'huh?' i didn't say that. the idea even came across her mind.

Sosa lola
12-12-07, 02:38 PM
(considering Dawn is 18 and Xander is around 26).

Actually Xander is 24 :)

The difference between Xander/Dawn and Buffy/Angel is the same as vampmogs said. Xander saw Dawn as a kid, while Angel lusted after Buffy since the very first glance :p

Wolfie Gilmore
12-12-07, 02:42 PM
I think the problem with Xander/Dawn is maybe his own view of her: the fact that he feels bad and icky about fancying Dawn is what makes it icky? IE he sees himself as a grown up and her as a junior scooby?

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 02:45 PM
Worth noting, Xander is actually a little *older* than Buffy and not a little younger. In "Innocence", which took place the day or so after Buffy's birthday, Xander tells Cordelia "I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me think about sex". So they were both 22 when they left Sunnydale, making them anywhere between "almost 24" and "just turned 25" depending on what Joss ultimately locks down as being the timeframe for Season 8. Dawn could have been as old as 17 for "Chosen" -- she names herself as 15 in "Once More, With Feeling", but assuming a winter birthday, she'd have turned 17 in the middle of Season 7. Not impossible for a high school sophomore depending on birthday, school district, random weirdness.

So that would have her in the "almost 19" or "just turned 20" range in Season 8. Or, as old as Buffy was in Season 4 or 5.


I think the problem with Xander/Dawn is maybe his own view of her: the fact that he feels bad and icky about fancying Dawn is what makes it icky? IE he sees himself as a grown up and her as a junior scooby?

Eh... it's a grey area. Willow herself 'normalizes' his attraction by admitting to sharing it, and she's much less guilty about it, all things considered. One could interpret that Xander was more making a show of being grossed out, what with Buffy sitting right there (which has implications both as "super strong sister" and as "early season 7 quasi-love interest").

I'm not going to cheer for Xander/Dawn, but I'd buy it -- their relationship is very colorable. I myself have argued the plausibility of Xander being Dawn's biological 'father' (highly doubtful canon will ever address her Preposterous and Inscrutable Lineage, though, and if it did, I highly doubt that Fia Reynne's fic interpretation would prevail), and I have also argued that one could interpret Xander's relationship with Dawn as almost paternal, not just fraternal. But it is... highly colorable. Joss has never really married himself to any particular reading. Xander's scene with with Dawn in "Potential" could be read as brotherly support, fatherly pride, or romantic adoration.

Sosa lola
12-12-07, 02:51 PM
Dawn was 16 in S7. She's 17 in S5 Angel. She's 18 in S8, as it starts six months after S5 Angel.

Buffy and Xander were 22 in S7. 23 in S5 Angel. And now 24.

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 02:56 PM
Dawn was 16 in S7. She's 17 in S5 Angel. She's 18 in S8, as it starts six months after S5 Angel.

Buffy and Xander were 22 in S7. 23 in S5 Angel. And now 24.

You're kind of taking a linear everyone-born-on-New Year's Day approach. Say that Dawn's birthday was during... "Doublemeat Palace" -- she'd have turned 16, then turned 17 around "Potential". We don't actually *know* when anyone's birthday is other than Buffy and Tara, and I'm not assuming everyone else has a summer birthday just because they never did episodes around them.

Plus, the rest is based on when Season 8 starts. Joss said it starts "at least a year and a half" after "Chosen", but has never vowed to adhere strictly to that -- it's just what we assume for convenience. It could be late 2004 in the Buffyverse... or it could be mid or late 2005. Joss has hinted this will be part of what gets more clearly tightened up in 8.10 "Anywhere But Here".

litzie
12-12-07, 03:07 PM
Joss has hinted this will be part of what gets more clearly tightened up in 8.10 "Anywhere But Here".
Ooh, that makes me excited for Anywhere But Here, cuz of the implied backstory splainy.

I think Xander and Dawn's official ages are less important for my feelings on that ship than their history together as characters, with Xander playing a more big brothery kind of role. It makes it hard for me to see that ship working out (especially because all the stuff I said I'd like about Faith/Dawn, ie it being all about Buffy for faith, at least at first, would drive me crazy if it were Dawn/Xander), but not impossible...crushes on friends of older sisters who act more like big brothers than boyfriendly material are well known in fiction to result in actual relationships, sooo...

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 03:24 PM
As a personal preference, I've always said I like 1) Buffy/Xander, and then either Xander/Willow or Faith/Xander as 2 and 3. Of the things that I think might realistically actually happen, I'd like Buffy/Xander still most, but Xander/Willow is almost tied with it, and I'd be open to Xander/Dawn, but they'd have to start working on that right away.

"Anywhere But Here" is going to, apparently, have two basic threads -- Buffy and Willow having a big weepy talk based on their interaction with the contest winner's character, Robin, who is a demon of sorts that somehow gets them all nostalgic, and Xander and Dawn talking about and hopefully revealing exactly what happened to make her a giant.

How the Xander and Dawn side of that goes will go a long way to defining how we're meant to perceive their interaction in Season 8. I really think that, given the nature of the story and all, if we're going to get *any* of my preferred 'ships, we're going to get some kind of tease for the idea in this next issue.

litzie
12-12-07, 03:45 PM
ok, first of all and totally off topic, can I just comment that I've been posting on this forum on and off for like 3 years (k, mostly off), and it seems INEVITABLE that I do most of my posting when I'm supposed to be writing papers! Back when I was doing my undergrad thesis I was posting like 10 times a day, and current attempts to write a long and lame paper seem to be resulting in constant forum-refreshing and excessive posting.

Phew, ok, got that off my chest...


I really think that, given the nature of the story and all, if we're going to get *any* of my preferred 'ships, we're going to get some kind of tease for the idea in this next issue.
I think you are right about that...though, I have to say, I kind of feel like we're only 2 or 3 episodes into a season at this point, since the 4-issue arcs seem like one episode to me. Interestingly the standalone episode seemed like its own ep...maybe because of the very fact that it was so unconnected to the other storylines? Anyway, 2-3 eps in is not very late at all to be intro'ing a new love interest/new love relationship.

and in terms of what I think is LIKELY, as opposed to what I think SHOULD happen...I feel Xander/renee is V. likely, Buffy/Xander next most likely, and virtually all the other suggestions in the poll almost completely unlikely. Perhaps actually Buffy won't have a love interest in this season? Because...I can kind of see that, and I can kind of get behind it. She's been with someone in some way every season of the show - it would be interesting to see her navigating the single life for a bit.

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 03:53 PM
I could see Buffy going sans love interest, and I could go with it. I just know even when all we had was the 8.01 preview, Buffy/Xander fans started feeling like the moment had arrived :)

I suspect that we'll get some more interplay of a Buffy/Xander/Renee triangle (and I felt the scene in 8.06 teased this), but I also think that Renee is most likely the spy for Twilight in the BHC (isn't that so typical that Xander would be involved with someone secretly evil? Hi Ampata! Hi Lissa! Didn't see you ladies there.).

That would obviously have some ramifications on the viability of a Xander/Renee relationship.

To your list, I'd still add Xander/Willow as plausible... just because it's sort of *always* plausible. If it was Xander or Oz, whom we already know she's been in love with, I don't think there would be a massive "but she's gay!" whining from the peoples. Actually, might have to add Willow/Oz as plausible, too, since... theoretically... he's coming back.

litzie
12-12-07, 04:01 PM
To your list, I'd still add Xander/Willow as plausible... just because it's sort of *always* plausible. If it was Xander or Oz, whom we already know she's been in love with, I don't think there would be a massive "but she's gay!" whining from the peoples. Actually, might have to add Willow/Oz as plausible, too, since... theoretically... he's coming back.
I just don't think that's true...I think that season 7 and Kennedy was all about Joss establishing that Will is G-A-Y, and I seriously doubt he would go back on that. And I think you overestimate fans' tolerance! I DEFINITELY think there'd be massive whining. And...while I wouldn't mind if they'd established Willow as bi from the beginning, I think it would be kinda annoying since they didn't. Kinda similar to the fact that (whatever I was arguing about the symbolic import of a lesbian heroine up thread) Buffy's pretty darn straight and unlikely to end up with a girl. Obv lots of people come out in their 20s, I did for goodness sake, and equally, people's sexuality and/or their understanding of it changes in the other direction as well. But! I just don't think that's where the comic is going, or should go.

vampmogs
12-12-07, 04:18 PM
I'm not sure how I view the Willow thing. Willow says hello "gay now" as if currently she is gay, when as far as I understand it if a person is gay they've always been that way.

We know Willow wasn't only attracted to Oz, she was lusty over Xander, had a crush on Giles, even seems a little smitten over Angel and has stated that she has had naughty feelings for other guys sometimes whilst with Oz. I don't really see how she can be attracted to all these men and not be bisexual rather than gay.

Wolfie Gilmore
12-12-07, 04:19 PM
I'm not sure how I view the Willow thing. Willow says hello "gay now" as if currently she is gay, when as far as I understand it if a person is gay they've always been that way.

We know Willow wasn't only attracted to Oz, she was lusty over Xander, had a crush on Giles, even seems a little smitten over Angel and has stated that she has had naughty feelings for other guys sometimes whilst with Oz. I don't really see how she can be attracted to all these men and not be bisexual rather than gay.

Well, people do change, and you don't have to have always been gay to be "gay now". However, probably pretty rare!

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 05:03 PM
I'm not sure how I view the Willow thing. Willow says hello "gay now" as if currently she is gay, when as far as I understand it if a person is gay they've always been that way.

Honestly, and in all fairness such behavior is human nature, the answer you get on this depends on the context in which the question is being asked -- in other words, what does the person answering require the answer be in that given situation. But to explore it further would... really be its own thread. Miscellaneous?


We know Willow wasn't only attracted to Oz, she was lusty over Xander, had a crush on Giles, even seems a little smitten over Angel and has stated that she has had naughty feelings for other guys sometimes whilst with Oz. I don't really see how she can be attracted to all these men and not be bisexual rather than gay.

And she didn't find it the least bit awkward to stir Buffy up in "Flooded" with images of herself with Angel and Riley. There would be whining, sure, but the shrillness of it would be muted by the minority of it. I think the most of fans are going to fall in favor of "Willow loves who she loves". I mean, hell, she was "gay now" in "New Moon Rising", but was *clearly* really conflicted and tempted to get back together with Oz, and she was still making with the good-natured formalwear innuendo with Xander before his wedding.

litzie
12-12-07, 05:37 PM
I mean, hell, she was "gay now" in "New Moon Rising", but was *clearly* really conflicted and tempted to get back together with Oz, and she was still making with the good-natured formalwear innuendo with Xander before his wedding.
I absolutely see the arguments you guys are making about Willow being bi, but just because she has had crushes on and relationships with men in the past does not mean she can't be a lesbian. Definitely know women who identify as lesbian now but had crushes on or dated men before. Also you could (though I won't go into detail here as it's a bit OT) make an argument that the men willow is interested in as a teenager are extremely unattainable (ie giles, a xander in love with Buffy), and that Oz, who is attainable, pursues her. I don't meant to say that invalidates her feelings for any of them, but just that it might change your perspective on willow's initial approach.

Anyway to me sexuality labels have a lot to do with how you identify yourself, and Willow has explicitly presented herself as gay. To retcon that now would be really annoying, and if there wasn't much fan reaction it would only be because the comics don't have anywhere near the audience of the tv series. However I still maintain wholeheartedly that Joss would NEVER do that. Just don't see it happening.

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 05:41 PM
I absolutely see the arguments you guys are making about Willow being bi, but just because she has had crushes on and relationships with men in the past does not mean she can't be a lesbian.

I attack the vorpal rabbit with Occam's Razor.

*rolls initiative*

Or, rather, while what you've said makes sense, is it the simplest explanation permitted by the text? I'd lean toward the bisexuality being that.


To retcon that now

"Gay now" Willow was, essentially, a retcon, though.

Wolfie Gilmore
12-12-07, 05:46 PM
"Gay now" Willow was, essentially, a retcon, though.

Well, not really ret, given it doesn't go backwards...neo-con perhaps ;)

KingofCretins
12-12-07, 05:58 PM
Yes... it was a Karl Rove of plot developments.

It was Alberto Gonplotez.

Point being... the whole bright-line gay thing hadn't really had any basis prior to her declaring it in her argument with Anya.

Wolfie Gilmore
12-12-07, 06:02 PM
Yes... it was a Karl Rove of plot developments.



Ok, that made me laugh out loud.



Point being... the whole bright-line gay thing hadn't really had any basis prior to her declaring it in her argument with Anya.

It's interesting re the question of self-identification. Sometimes, people don't know themselves best, so their word on their sexuality isn't necessarily reliable. How reliable do we think Willow is in this respect? Is she saying she's gay because it makes things simpler for her? Or is it really what she feels? Or a bit of both? Or because it's a funny line and once she's said it...? ;)

Nostalgia
12-12-07, 10:21 PM
I think some were reading into what I said too deep.. All I was saying (as sherillina agreed with) was that Buffy never truly saw Willow's relationship in the light of a normal thing for a while.. it definitely confused her.. and this is shown very awkwardly in Family. I'd make the argument that even in season 6 she still isn't perfectly understanding of their relationship, but this could be due to the privacy of Willow/Tara. She truly becomes open to them when she gets to know Tara and opens up to her in "Dead Things." Sorry if I offended anyone..