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View Full Version : Angel's still alive; so, Why'd they have to kill Glory?



MikeB
24-08-13, 08:57 AM
Ultimately, this is the problem with A&F.

Glorificus is far more sympathetic than Angel. I could perhaps argue that she’s more sympathetic than Angel ever was.

She was simply a power-hungry god who wanted to rule her dimension. But her fellow rulers, who were less powerful than she, kicked her out of the dimension. Glory simply wanted to go home, kill those two, and rule her dimension. And if the Earth and all it’s life was destroyed? Who cares? To her, humans are bugs.

(If Angel actually is Liam of Galway): Angel was born into a wealthy family and wasted that privilege on boozing and whoring. Then he wants a rich woman to take him away from Galway. He becomes a serial killer who’s afraid of anyone or group who could possibly harm him. He cheats on that woman who took him away from Galway. He has a buddy who eventually surpasses him in about all things that are actually good. He twice tries to make Buffy Drusilla 2.0 failing both times. He wants Buffy to himself to the point that he’d let the entire world and all its life to be destroyed merely to have her in a paradise dimension with him.



After she couldn’t go home again, why couldn’t Ben be killed and Glory get to eventually become the ‘Illyria’ of BtVS? Or perhaps simply a ‘better’ version of Buffy? At least, she’d have an interesting dynamic with Buffy and Willow.


Plus, it could be argued that Glory could eventually become a powerful force for good. That whole Caleb mess wouldn’t have been a problem. She’d simply go in there, beat him up, and get the Scythe for Buffy.

Plus, it’s possible that without Ben ‘tainting’ her and likely lessening her powers, a Ben-less Glory would probably be more powerful in magic than Willow. And it’s less likely Glory would have to pray to other gods. Glory needs to get into the good graces of the Scoobies? Resurrect Buffy.

There’re simply so many possibilities with Glory. (spoiled for Stoney) She probably could have beaten the Beast.


With Angel: (spoiled for Stoney) he killed Lindsey because Lindsey could become a bad force in the world again. Was Lindsey MacDonald ever as evil as Angel ultimately is?

Giles killed Ben because Glory could possibly become a threat again. How likely is it that Giles is going to try to kill Angel? or tell Faith that Angel needs to be dusted?


Back to Glory. She doesn’t have a perfect happiness clause. She actually likes the human world (with its luxury housing, designer clothing, etc.). She wanted to rule her home dimension, but she’d probably better adjust that Illyria.


Plus, it doesn’t seem there’s any more story to tell with Angel. What’s still interesting about him? He could be replaced with Groo.


I’m actually kinda hoping Glory comes back. I stopped watching TVD at 3.18, but one of the things that show really did right was have Klaus and Stefan pretty much being the same person, with one simply a lot more powerful than the other.


Glory is pretty much a combination of Buffy, Willow, Illyria, and Spike.

Plus, she’s only tried to destroy the world one time.


The problem with Angel is that it cannot be answered why he’s so special that he can’t be dusted. I’m referring to in-verse, not his ability to sell comics. He only has a soul because he was such an evil and vile guy that the Gypsies decided to curse him instead of kill him.

Vampire in Rug
12-10-13, 11:11 PM
Ultimately, this is the problem with A&F.

Glorificus is far more sympathetic than Angel. I could perhaps argue that she’s more sympathetic than Angel ever was.

She was simply a power-hungry god who wanted to rule her dimension.

She was simply a power-hungry god who wanted to rule over an entire dimension. How exactly does this make her sympathetic at all, much less more sympathetic than Angel.

Angel as Twilight could be described as a power-hungry god who wanted to create, then rule over an entire dimension and many would agree that the Twilight phase was the most despicable year of Angel's unlife. Why is it okay for Glory to destroy the whole world for the sake of ruling over a dimension, but it's not okay for Angel?



And if the Earth and all it’s life was destroyed? Who cares? To her, humans are bugs.

How exactly does this make Glory sympathetic? Did you find Angel sympathetic when he was being seduced by Wolfram &? Hart and started comparing humans to ants?


(If Angel actually is Liam of Galway): Angel was born into a wealthy family and wasted that privilege on boozing and whoring. Then he wants a rich woman to take him away from Galway.

Liam was an ass. He's hardly the worst person you could meet. If Liam was born in modern times into a different show, I could quite easily see him hanging out with Jesse, Badger, Cumbo and Skinny Pete. He wasn't a great guy, but he wasn't exactly "evil". He was wasting his own potential, but it's his life to waste.


He becomes a serial killer who’s afraid of anyone or group who could possibly harm him.

Angelus had no problem standing up to the Master, the Beast, the "Beast Master", Buffy, Faith and if you care for IDW at all (I know you don't) Frankenstein's monster. I don't know why you always try to portray Angelus as the most cowardly vampire; he clearly wasn't.


He cheats on that woman who took him away from Galway.

Are you really going to criticize Angel for things he did as a soulless vampire in order to make him look non-sympathetic? News flash, vampires are evil.

And of all the things you could bring up, of all Angel's evil soulless deeds to make him look bad, you mention that he cheated on Darla?

For starters, I don't remember Angelus ever "cheating" on her. I assume you're talking about Angel's relationship with Drusilla? I see zero reason to consider that as cheating, all evidence suggests that Darla knew about it and didn't mind. And even if Angelus did cheat on Darla, who cares? It's Darla. They're both soulless monsters, not to mention that she's cheated on him before too.

I find this point to be pretty silly to be honest. Angel has done far worse things than cheating. For that matter, so has Spike and so has Darla.


He has a buddy who eventually surpasses him in about all things that are actually good.

Yeah because Spike>Angel 4ever times infinity! If we're going to be perfectly honest, that's the basic gist of most of your posts. That Spike is better than Angel at basically everything. As Willow would put it, bored now.



He twice tries to make Buffy Drusilla 2.0 failing both times.

I've got no idea what you are referring to here.


He wants Buffy to himself to the point that he’d let the entire world and all its life to be destroyed merely to have her in a paradise dimension with him.

Angel's Twilight plan was to bring the "good" people of Earth over to Twilight once he'd given the dimension form. To insist otherwise is to claim that you know more about the story than the people who wrote it. And since that's evidently the case here, I've really got no interest in discussing this point further.

But to go back to the thread title, how exactly does this make Angel worse than Glory who was certainly going to let the entire population of Earth and possibly several other dimensions die?



After she couldn’t go home again, why couldn’t Ben be killed and Glory get to eventually become the ‘Illyria’ of BtVS? Or perhaps simply a ‘better’ version of Buffy? At least, she’d have an interesting dynamic with Buffy and Willow.

a) the scoobies don't just go around killing humans as casually as you'd clearly like them to.

b) Glory requires human brains for sustenance, how do you expect the scoobies to keep her around while overcoming that little problem? Try to address this one *without* inventing your own bullshit mythology if you can.

c) Glory's few moments of civility and compassion were implied to be the result of Ben in her subconscious. We've got no idea what Glory would be like without Ben, but I hardly think that removing Ben from the equation would make Glory more of a decent person. Why would you think it would be a good idea to keep Glory around, and remove her one tenuous link to humanity?

d) how is the story supposed to be interesting with Glory constantly outshining Buffy? Illyria was depowered for a reason. In a story like BtVS, a side character shouldn't be outshining the protagonist. That's just one of the many reasons I don't like Willow's ass-pull powers. Do you really want to watch/read a story where Glory solves all of Buffy's problems for her and basically pushes her out of the spotlight? I don't understand why you'd even want to see Glory as a "better" version of Buffy.



Plus, it could be argued that Glory could eventually become a powerful force for good. That whole Caleb mess wouldn’t have been a problem. She’d simply go in there, beat him up, and get the Scythe for Buffy.

That sounds like a fantastic story... Yep, I'm sure there will be a huge audience for the "Glory does everything for Buffy" show.


Plus, it’s possible that without Ben ‘tainting’ her and likely lessening her powers, a Ben-less Glory would probably be more powerful in magic than Willow. And it’s less likely Glory would have to pray to other gods. Glory needs to get into the good graces of the Scoobies? Resurrect Buffy.

We've seen zero evidence that Glory has magic-based powers at all. Your suggestion that Glory would suddenly gain the magical powers of resurrection after Ben has been removed is something that you've entirely made up. Also, you haven't suggested a way that Ben even *could* be removed. Ben was the vessel, killing Ben killed Glory. Also, it would be extremely OOC for Glory to even *want* to be in the good graces of the scoobies.

Basically, you've given Glory a new powerset. You've removed a fundamental part of her character (Ben), and given no reason for how this fundamental aspect even *could* be removed. You've given her entirely new motives and goals. Basically, you want to lobotomize Glory/Ben so that she's got new powers and with these new powers you want her to do something she'd never do (resurrect Buffy) in order to achieve something she'd never care about (the good graces of the scoobies).

You haven't made Glory more sympathetic here, you've just written her into a completely different character.


There’re simply so many possibilities with Glory. (spoiled for Stoney) She probably could have beaten the Beast.

You'd actually want Glory (after being wanked into becoming a scooby) to show up in another show to defeat their villains? Do you think that's good writing?



With Angel: (spoiled for Stoney) he killed Lindsey because Lindsey could become a bad force in the world again. Was Lindsey MacDonald ever as evil as Angel ultimately is?

If Lindsay had full control of W&H, who knows how evil he'd become. Lorne certainly didn't trust Lindsay enough to let him live. But yeah, the assassination of Lindsay was a moment of hypocrasy for Angel.


Giles killed Ben because Glory could possibly become a threat again. How likely is it that Giles is going to try to kill Angel? or tell Faith that Angel needs to be dusted?

This is something I'd actually like the writers to explore.



Back to Glory. She doesn’t have a perfect happiness clause. She actually likes the human world (with its luxury housing, designer clothing, etc.). She wanted to rule her home dimension, but she’d probably better adjust that Illyria.

I don't think Illyria ever like chaos, even in her Old One days. I think Illyria has always been a more "mature person" than Glory, who was always spoilt and bratty. Illyria had one of the nicest people on either show as her shell and she was still pretty destructive. Then she had two more sets of human memories beamed into her head during AtF. Then she had that moment where she touched the gem and became more compassionate in Haunted. Illyria went through a lot of character development, so I don't think it's fair to say that Glory would adjust to the human world better than Illyria did. I think it' far more likely that Glory would just go around taking what she wants and slaughtering anyone who gets in her way forever.



Plus, it doesn’t seem there’s any more story to tell with Angel. What’s still interesting about him? He could be replaced with Groo.

You're obviously not the least bit interested in his character, and that's fine. Others are.



Plus, she’s only tried to destroy the world one time.

Oh, that makes her okay then. I mean, what's so bad about trying to destroy the world one time?

Trying to destroy the world twice though? Whole different ball park, should be killed and never mentioned by the characters ever again.



The problem with Angel is that it cannot be answered why he’s so special that he can’t be dusted. I’m referring to in-verse, not his ability to sell comics.

Sorry, but his ability to sell comics is a big part of why he's still around. Angel is hardly unique in this. Spike's popularity allowed him to remain undusted too. The same can be argued for Anya, Illyria, Willow, Drusilla, D'Hoffryn and many others.

The Joker deserves the death penalty dozens of times over. At this point, it really is a load of bull that the state keeps putting him in Arkham where he can and does break out, rather than sending him to the chair. Even if you accept whatever bullshit reason for why the state can't execute him, there are still a plethora of heroes and villains alike who have the means and desire to kill the Joker. Yet nobody does because he's a popular character.

You have to accept that these are fictional stories Mike, and that sometimes a character who realistically should have been killed is often allowed to live because of popularity. There is no reasonable in-universe reason for why the Joker is still alive. You can take it or leave it.

vampmogs
13-10-13, 05:27 AM
Glory was evil and had the ego of, well, a god. There isn't a chance in hell she was going to start working with the Scoobies or under Buffy in any kind of capacity. Glory killed indiscriminately, without remorse, often for the most petty of reasons, and found both humankind and this dimension utterly loathsome – “I could crap a better existence than this.”

I don’t know how you could even suggest that Glory is more sympathetic than Angel. Yes, she “just wanted to go home” at the expense of millions of lives and she didn’t care who she slaughtered along the way. She twisted a security guard’s head off his body because he had the audacity to interrupt her, she beat and terrorised her own loving and loyal minions, she brain sucked Tara to send Buffy a message and relished Willow’s pain, she was only ever capable of feeling compassion when the magic between her and Ben began to fade and even then she was utterly disgusted by the humanity she felt and rejected it completely. Say what you will about Angel but he at least became Twilight with the best intentions, however misguided they may have been. Twilight!Kitty may have preyed upon his hubris and his desire to be rewarded but most of all it relied on Angel wanting to save the world and be a hero (hence giving him powers right at the moment he was able to save a plane full of people). And after all of Angel’s despicable acts as Twilight he was so guilt-ridden that he went into a catatonic state for several months.

So yes, Angel’s actions were truly heinous in S8 but he’s a far more complex character than Glory. When all was said and done he had the ability to feel genuine remorse for his behaviour whereas Glory had to be killed because “she would make Buffy pay for that mercy and the world with her.” Glory was incapable of regret, of guilt, and seeing humans as anything but ants she could squish under her heels. At his worst Angel began to feel like a god and started to exhibit the same cavalier attitude towards human lives as Glory did (“they’re mortal, they have to die sometime”) but all that proves is that Glory is the benchmark for how evil a person can become.

And as for stating that she was more sympathetic than Angel ever was? Ah, no. Angel spent years dedicating his life to helping people. He saved Buffy's life on numerous occasions, he took a stake for Spike, he was willing to sacrifice his own life to give Darla a second chance, he saved Xander and Willow, he offered Faith sanctuary and a chance to redeem herself, he genuinely cared about people and wanted to fight evil because “he doesn’t think they should have to suffer.” Say what you will about Angel but he undoubtedly wants to be a good person and tries his best to live up to that. He doesn’t always succeed but he tries and that’s more than you can ever say for Glory who was perfectly content with being evil and who longed to return home so she could “reign down terror, destruction and misery” upon her dimension. When did Glory ever put her life on the line for anyone else? When did Glory demonstrate that she cared about anyone other than herself? When did Glory move to LA to try and help people and atone for her sins? Angel is an anti-hero whilst Glory’s a straight up villain. I don’t believe anyone could compare these two characters objectively and claim that Glory was more sympathetic than Angel throughout this series.

KingofCretins
13-10-13, 12:46 PM
I can actually sympathize with the crux of the argument -- that if you put them to the Tale of the Tape, Glory's agenda and the nature of the harm she was going to do in carrying it out was actually less horrifying than Angel's Twilight agenda (if you expand the scope beyond Twilight, though, it becomes ludicrous. More sympathetic than Angel "ever was"? Dafuq?).

And I'll go ahead and say that the reason between the two that Glory has to die and Angel gets spared is... hypocrisy. Or, favoritism. Go to your "Pulp Fiction" -- pig is a filthy animal. Dog's got personality; personality goes a long way. They treat Angel differently because they know him, he has cache with them. Glory didn't have none.

Rug, I think the "Drusilla 2.0" thing is somewhat fair -- he means the two independent campaigns to break Buffy's mind/morale as a means to defeat her, first in Season 2 then in Season 8. Of course, it falls apart because there's no indication either time that he meant to sire her.

vampmogs
13-10-13, 01:17 PM
There are many deliberate parallels between Buffy/Drusilla throughout S2. In Lie to Me Dru is somewhat of a romantic rival to Buffy, they share the same birthday in Surprise/Innocence, in Buffy's nightmares she and Dru are wearing the same silky dress, in Surprise the camera fades from a close-up of Buffy’s face into Drusillas, and in Passion Buffy blatantly makes the comparison – “Giles, Angel once told me that when he was obsessed with Drusilla the first thing he did was to kill her family.”

You could even say that Buffy/Drusilla act as a parallel in Spike's story with both women offering him effulgence as Dru (the “black beauty”) sires him and “delivers him from mediocrity” whilst Buffy Summers inspires him to be get a soul and become a champion. They act as polar opposites in his journey.

But yeah, there's no question that the writers were deliberately going for a Buffy/Dru parallel in S2 and that what Angel did to Drusilla was meant as a precursor to what he'd later try and do to Buffy.

KingofCretins
13-10-13, 01:28 PM
I assume his eventual intention was just to kill her outright. He wanted Drusilla around as a pet/paramour. Given his reactions to his emotional tie to Buffy at various points (disgust and anger when the penny drops in "I Only Have Eyes For You", for instance), I don't think he'd want her psycho vampire bitchface hounding him for years.

And that is in hindsight a good thing since we now have empirical reason to think Vamp!Buffy would have just curbstomped him.

Here when I saw your post, I thought you'd be taking exception to my "pig vs. dog"/Pulp Fiction postulate :)

Lostsoul666
15-10-13, 06:00 PM
Plus, it doesn’t seem there’s any more story to tell with Angel. What’s still interesting about him? He could be replaced with Groo.Angel still has more story left to tell then Groo does. Groo was only created to be a love interest for Cordelia and since Cordelia is now dead/higher being, his original purpose is gone.

Skippcomet
19-10-13, 01:58 PM
Given how MikeB's sudden interest in Glory seems to rest only in her power level and some perverse desire to see her outshine Buffy by taking care of her problems for her (shades of his personal canon that Spike cast a magic spell to lock Acathla away from the world inside the mansion, which does nothing but elevate Spike over Buffy), his history of utter contempt for characters without powers who dare to assert themselves in the story, and the fact that he's only person answering the other possibilities in his own poll....I actually had an ultimate point to make, but I think y'all can come away with your own conclusions.

MikeB
23-10-13, 11:47 AM
* I decided to edit out my responses to all straw man arguments. I don’t consider very fruitful to respond to stuff I didn’t argue.




* Glory is sympathetic in a way that I can understand and feel for Illyria’s disappointment when she discovers her army is dead and when she acknowledges she can’t go to some other dimensions anymore because she’d be killed.

Glory was kicked out of her world, humans are like bugs to a being like her, and she simply wants to return home, exact revenge on the two gods that forced her out, and rule as she was meant to rule.


* The Buffyverse had perhaps first Vampire Slayer Slayer since Lothos help Buffy save the world and eventually be the one who destroys Sunnydale and apparently permanently closes The Hellmouth. It has Anyanka eventually becoming a good guy and being instrumental in saving the day in “Graduation Day” (3.21-2) and in “The Gift” (5.22), and perhaps one could argue “Two to Go” (6.21). It eventually has the person trying to help the Mayor eat the town of Sunnydale arguably becoming ‘better’ than Buffy herself. Willow tries to destroy the world and next year became a goddess and eventually births the new Seed.


* Liam was a drunken whoring lout. Uncursed Angel simply was serial killer who did sadistic things to animals and his victims. Cursed Angel was useless for most of his history until he saw an underage girl he wanted to have sex with. And since his introduction in BtVS, he’s 3 times tried to end the world, and if those flash forwards in AtF are canon, his future involves being on the side of evil in Wolfram and Hart’s apocalypse. And yet A&F still treats him as if he’s still a hero.



Vampire in Rug


She was simply a power-hungry god who wanted to rule over an entire dimension. How exactly does this make her sympathetic at all, much less more sympathetic than Angel. She was the most powerful of the 3 gods that ruled that dimension and those other 2 gods forced her out because they were jealous and fearful of her. With Angel, I’m referring to his entire history, not just what he did in BtVS S8.


Why is it okay for Glory to destroy the whole world for the sake of ruling over a dimension, but it's not okay for Angel? That’s a straw man argument (SMA).


Did you find Angel sympathetic when he was being seduced by Wolfram &? Hart and started comparing humans to ants? SMA.



* I’m not saying that they should have kept Glory alive and redeemed her. Doing so would obviously make Buffy obsolete and practically useless. A Ben-less Glory would be more powerful than full-powered Illyria and likely have more magical powers than BtVS S8 Willow.

But for the ‘verse, keeping Glory alive and redeeming her would be better for the ‘verse than keeping Angel alive. Unless Glory is going to singlehandedly try to kill everyone – which there’s no suggestion she would --, redeeming her would be good for the ‘verse. Certainly better than keeping Angel alive.


* Liam of Galway isn’t a sympathetic character. You agree, so I don’t know why you tried to argue against this.


* We still don’t know what from IDW is canon, but nothing that wasn’t written by Brian Lynch or Juliet Landau is canon.


* Are you trying to argue that Angelus was a sympathetic character?


* I’m not going to get into a debate about Angelus’ interactions with the Beast, Beastmaster, Buffy, and Faith. You argue he ‘stood up’ to these beings. Well, Glory’s ‘standing up’ to those who banished her from her dimension.


My quote: “He has a buddy who eventually surpasses him in about all things that are actually good.”

Yeah because Spike>Angel 4ever times infinity! If we're going to be perfectly honest, that's the basic gist of most of your posts. That Spike is better than Angel at basically everything. I noticed you didn’t actually try to argue against this.

This is tiresome. Joss Whedon considers Spike better than Angel and he says Spike is more involved than Angel. Scott Allie acknowledged that Buffy and Spike wouldn’t have agreed to become Twilight and Angel did because of Angel’s certain flaws.


My quote: [i] “He twice tries to make Buffy Drusilla 2.0 failing both times.”

I've got no idea what you are referring to here. So, you missed the point of “Passion” (2.17) and missed the similarities between the goals in “Becoming” and Angel’s goals as Twilight in BtVS S8?


Angel's Twilight plan was to bring the "good" people of Earth over to Twilight once he'd given the dimension form. No, it wasn’t.


To insist otherwise is to claim that you know more about the story than the people who wrote it. Joss Whedon called that arc “fan fiction”. Christos Gage had Angel spewing lies to Willow. What is canon is that what happened in BtVS S8 and what Joss says.


Glory requires human brains for sustenance, Because Ben was making her crazy. This Glory would be Ben-less Glory.


Try to address this one *without* inventing your own bullshit mythology if you can. Should I mention that you think Angel wasn’t intimidated by werewolf Oz? I give possible explanations for stuff. I don’t go directly against canon.


We've got no idea what Glory would be like without Ben, We do know what uncursed Angel is like. We know that cursed Angel did what he did in BtVS S8. If you believe all the IDW is canon, you should believe that Angel is going to be on the side of evil in the Wolfram and Hart apocalypse.


Why would you think it would be a good idea to keep Glory around, and remove her one tenuous link to humanity? Again: Illyria. If she could be redeemed not much suggests Glory couldn’t also be used as a force for good.


how is the story supposed to be interesting with Glory constantly outshining Buffy? SMA.


I don't understand why you'd even want to see Glory as a "better" version of Buffy. SMA.


Yep, I'm sure there will be a huge audience for the "Glory does everything for Buffy" show. SMA.


We've seen zero evidence that Glory has magic-based powers at all. WOW! What’s the point of discussing her with you when you forget such basic things about her? How about you re-watch “Shadow” (5.08).


Your suggestion that Glory would suddenly gain the magical powers of resurrection after Ben has been removed is something that you've entirely made up. Again, your arguments aren’t based on canon. Glory was ‘put inside’ Ben. She’d essentially be removed from Ben.


Also, you haven't suggested a way that Ben even *could* be removed. What’s the point of that? I don’t write the Buffyverse. If a demon can remove a soul from Buffy by simply ‘breathing in her soul’, it’s obvious that Glory could somehow be removed from Ben.


killing Ben killed Glory As far as we know. Apparently, Warren wasn’t killed in BtVS S6; the Master wasn’t killed in BtVS S2.


Also, it would be extremely OOC for Glory to even *want* to be in the good graces of the scoobies. She could have her own adventures if that’s the case.


You haven't made Glory more sympathetic here, you've just written her into a completely different character. Again: Illyria.


* Lindsey wasn’t as evil as Holland Manners, the guy after Holland, or Lilah Morgan. Lindsey simply wanted power. He was the least evil person available to run Wolfram and Hart. Spoilers for Stoney Angel had Lindsey killed simply because Angel didn’t like Lindsey.


My quote: “Giles killed Ben because Glory could possibly become a threat again. How likely is it that Giles is going to try to kill Angel? or tell Faith that Angel needs to be dusted?”

This is something I'd actually like the writers to explore. Huh? Again, this is the point of this thread and it seems you agree with the point of this thread and yet still argued against various details in my post.


I don't think Illyria ever like chaos, even in her Old One days. Again, it seems you need to rewatch some episodes.


You're obviously not the least bit interested in [Angel], and that's fine. Others are. In-verse, everyone was unrealistically forgiving of Angel.


Oh, that makes her okay then. I mean, what's so bad about trying to destroy the world one time? SMA.


Trying to destroy the world twice though? Whole different ball park, should be killed and never mentioned by the characters ever again. Three times. And, yes, it’s factually different given it’s at least 3 times worse.


Sorry, but his ability to sell comics is a big part of why he's still around. Really? A&F sold far below BtVS S9, was getting outsold by the Willow miniseries and barely sold above a Spike series that had no reason to exist other than Scott Allie wanted a Spike miniseries.


Angel is hardly unique in this. Spike's popularity allowed him to remain undusted too. The same can be argued for Anya, Illyria, Willow, Drusilla, D'Hoffryn and many others. Angel is unique in this and that’s fact. On 3 separate occasions, he’s tried to destroy the world. He still has the perfect happiness clause problem. He seems to think saving Giles makes up for all he did in BtVS S8. Plus, if those IDW flash forwards are canon, he’s going to be on the side of evil in Wolfram and Hart’s apocalypse.


You have to accept that these are fictional stories Mike, and that sometimes a character who realistically should have been killed is often allowed to live because of popularity. Um, frankly, it seems Dark Horse and/or Joss Whedon actually acknowledge that Angel isn’t even that popular. Which is why they stuck Faith with him. Which is why so many actually popular character guest starred in A&F (Faith, Drusilla, Willow, Spike, Giles). Which is why Faith is still with Angel. Plus, Christos Gage and Rebekah Isaacs moving over to BtVS S10 can easily be seen as Dark Horse and/or Joss Whedon somewhat abandoning A&F.



vampmogs


Glory was evil and had the ego of, well, a god. There isn't a chance in hell she was going to start working with the Scoobies or under Buffy in any kind of capacity. Glory killed indiscriminately, without remorse, often for the most petty of reasons, and found both humankind and this dimension utterly loathsome – “I could crap a better existence than this.” You pretty much described Angel in BtVS S8.


Yes, she “just wanted to go home” at the expense of millions of lives and she didn’t care who she slaughtered along the way. Again: Angel in BtVS S8 (expect he knew the entire would and all its life would actually be destroyed).


She twisted a security guard’s head off his body because he had the audacity to interrupt her, Angel’s directly responsible for hundreds of Slayers deaths, many soldiers death, and all the death and destruction that happened while Buffy and he were in Twilight and all the death and destruction that happened as a result of Buffy and he being in Twilight.


she beat and terrorised her own loving and loyal minions, Angel in BtVS S8 beat Buffy and Faith. Terrorized: again, see Angel in BtVS S8. At least she didn’t try to kill any of her minions.


she brain sucked Tara to send Buffy a message and relished Willow’s pain, See: Jenny Calender. In BtVS S8, one of Angel’s minions lobotomized Willow and took out her eyes.


Say what you will about Angel but he at least became Twilight with the best intentions, No, he didn’t.


And after all of Angel’s despicable acts as Twilight he was so guilt-ridden that he went into a catatonic state for several months. Frankly, we don’t know why he went catatonic. But what’s canon is that he didn’t immediately feel bad about what he did. He asks, “Did we win?” He didn’t feel bad that he was going to have the Earth and all its life destroyed merely so that Buffy and he can be in Twilight together. If anything, it’s possible – and likely – that the reason he went catatonic is because he reasoned there was no zero chance he could be with Buffy ever again.


Angel’s actions were truly heinous in S8 but he’s a far more complex character than Glory. Well, he has 11 Seasons of storytelling under him compared with less than one Season for Glory (Clare Kramer was only in 12 episodes of Season 5 http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004456/?ref_=nv_sr_2 )


When all was said and done he had the ability to feel genuine remorse for his behaviour In-verse, who cares? He’s a danger to the entire world. When all was said and done, the only logical and rational thing to do is after 8.39 was to try to get the information out of Angel on who possibly ‘hired him’ and/or who he was ‘working with’ and then dust him.

One of the biggest problems of A&F is it acts as if the main thing that matters is that Angel get to a place in which he forgives himself for what he did in BtVS S8. It never even honestly asks whether Angel even deserves to be undusted.

So, again, Glory could have been redeemed. And with there now being no ‘door’ for the Key, she’s no longer a threat to the entire world.


whereas Glory had to be killed because “she would make Buffy pay for that mercy and the world with her.” Buffy died anyway. Again: Illyria.


Glory was incapable of regret, of guilt, and seeing humans as anything but ants she could squish under her heels. Again: Illyria.


At his worst Angel began to feel like a god and started to exhibit the same cavalier attitude towards human lives as Glory did (“they’re mortal, they have to die sometime”) but all that proves is that Glory is the benchmark for how evil a person can become. Sorry, but it’s likely the Judge wouldn’t have been able to burn Glory. Glory did have some humanity in her. For the Buffyverse, aside from the First Evil itself, it seems Angel is considered the benchmark for evil.


Angel spent years dedicating his life to helping people. Because he wanted to be with Buffy.


He saved Buffy's life on numerous occasions, “Numerous” is exaggerating things.


he took a stake for Spike, Because he knew he could change the timeline. Compare this to his dealings with Spike in early AtS s5.


he was willing to sacrifice his own life to give Darla a second chance, I reason this was because of Jasmine. But it clearly wasn’t a good thing that Angel did this.


he genuinely cared about people and wanted to fight evil because “he doesn’t think they should have to suffer.” That was after guidance from those like Doyle, Cordelia, and Wesley. Again, Glory could be eventually used as a force for good.


Say what you will about Angel but he undoubtedly wants to be a good person and tries his best to live up to that. Ultimately, Angel wants to be rewarded. And that reward is Buffy. That’s why he became “someone to be counted” in the first place. His whole redemption thing revolves around eventually the PTB telling him he’s redeemed now so that he can go be with Buffy. What he did in BtVS S8 all was to be with Buffy. What he did in A&F so far mostly all revolves around his wanting to be with Buffy.


When did Glory ever put her life on the line for anyone else? When did Glory demonstrate that she cared about anyone other than herself? Glory clearly cares about her minions given she saved their lives.


When did Glory move to LA to try and help people and atone for her sins? SMA.


Angel is an anti-hero whilst Glory’s a straight up villain. He was a pawn for Whistler and Twilight. Angel was an antihero in BtVS S1-3. Then he was a pawn for Jasmine and/or Wolfram and Hart. His antihero stature was muddied in AtS s2. For AtS s5, he’s mostly the head of Wolfram and Hart’s LA branch and is compromised to the point that soon Wesley and Gunn are unsure if Angel is even the Shanshu guy. Not sure what is even canon for the IDW stuff. But in BtVS S8 he’s a world-ending villain and nothing else. In A&F he was trying to convince people that he was the good guy in BtVS S8 and that Buffy was the bad guy until finally acknowledging that he was the bad guy. Now he seems to think that his contribution in bringing Giles back means he has a good shot at being with Buffy again.

Again, Glory was a villain. But she could be redeemed. And she was killed and Angel’s still undusted even though he continues to be a threat to the entire world and objectively Glory was no longer a threat to the entire world.

________________________________________________


You could even say that Buffy/Drusilla act as a parallel in Spike's story with both women offering him effulgence as Dru (the “black beauty”) sires him and “delivers him from mediocrity” whilst Buffy Summers inspires him to be get a soul and become a champion. They act as polar opposites in his journey. This is another thread topic, but Drusilla essentially turns him into a great warrior and Buffy turns him into a hero. The whole “effulgence” thing is only fully realized when Spike sees effulgent Buffy in “Chosen” (7.22) before he dies: She’s in ‘brilliant light’ and she’s radiating love. It’s like the most perfect image he could ever have of her.



KingofCretins

* In-verse, the reason Angel wasn’t killed is because on BtVS, the Scoobies seemed to decide that the only way Angel would revert to Angelus is if he had sex with Buffy. Over in AtS, it’s a mixture of Angel was the Fang Gang’s boss and source of their livelihoods, they thought Angel and Angelus were separate beings, and probably because of Jasmine. But they were prepared to dust Angel if they thought he was possibly about to become Angelus or was Angelus (though if Jasmine was influencing things, they weren’t ever actually going to dust Angel).

For the comics, Joss had to convince Scott Allie (or his boss) to buy back the AtS franchise. Joss hurt the character of Angel. He hurt Buffy/Angel. He didn’t have the time to write more Buffy/Spike stuff. But for whatever reason he decided not to have Angel killed even if that was the only logical in-verse thing for the characters to do. So, A&F was borne. And then more Joss unavailability.


Glory was killed because she was a Season-villain and/or she never became popular like Angel, Spike, and Faith became (all who were initially going to be killed).


[the Buffy is Drusilla 2.0 thing] falls apart because there's no indication either time that he meant to sire her. In BtVS S2, we don’t know if Angel didn’t want to sire Buffy. Remember that Angel gets mocked by Spike for being ‘Buffy whipped’. Drusilla reasons she’ll have Spike and Angel fighting over her and she wants Buffy dead. And relatively soon, Angel focuses on trying to mentally torture Spike instead of mentally torturing Buffy.

For BtVS S8, what Angel does is effectively the same. He turns Buffy into what he is.



Lostsoul666


Angel still has more story left to tell then Groo does. Groo was only created to be a love interest for Cordelia and since Cordelia is now dead/higher being, his original purpose is gone. I’m discussing their purpose in-verse. We could have Faith the Vampire Slayer. We could have had a story about Illyria (if she didn’t die.)

In-verse, the story is still about “Angel is trying to be redeemed after again doing something evil.”



Skippcomet


Given how MikeB's sudden interest in Glory seems to rest only in her power level and some perverse desire to see her outshine Buffy SMA.


and the fact that he's only person answering the other possibilities in his own poll Means nothing other than those 12 disagree with the thread topic.