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View Full Version : Was It Dramatically Necessary for Angel to Appear in Chosen?



Dipstick
05-08-13, 04:52 PM
Also inspired by the Unpopular Opinion thread. Given Angel's role in BtVS, do you think that it was dramatically or emotionally necessary for him to have a cameo at the end?

BTW, it's consistent for one to think that Angel was owed a cameo but hate the execution of his cameo in Chosen. If you feel that way, it would be interesting for you to share. (Not that holders of other opinions needn't share them! :lol:)

kana
05-08-13, 06:29 PM
Do I think was necessary? Well it makes sense for Angel to be in the finale, but I agree, it could have been handled better.

To me, even subtle hinting at the feelings they still have for each other without Angel interogating Buffy about their future.

That said, I did like Buffy's response. Well, at least the Cookie Dough response. For me, it seems that shippers are constantly trying to define Buffy with an ever present somebody else and the speech kind of defied that.

All of this said, aside from the amulet Angel's presence added next to nothing to episode in itself, either dramatically or terms of story arc. In fact it flies in the face of Ats' story arc when you think how Angel was acting after what he had just been through.

The only way to fanwank Angel's behaviour, at least IMHO, is that Buffy was his escape from his own problems. I know it sounds odd, but compared to losing his son, his best friend/lover in coma and working for Evil Inc, some Bangel drama perhaps was a relatively light-hearted escape, well at least I can relate to that.

All in all, I was happy to see Angel in Chosen but I think it could have been handled better.

Sosa lola
05-08-13, 06:43 PM
I personally don't think it was necessary. I don't mind Angel showing up, but I really think that Buffy could have benefited from solving loose ends like Buffy's relationship with the Scoobies especially Giles after Empty Places, a meaningful Xander/Anya scene just to make it clear if they were back together or not, Xander dealing with losing an eye and how it's affecting his daily life, a much better way to save the world in Chosen than a last minute thought amulet and so on.

Dipstick
05-08-13, 07:13 PM
I personally don't think it was necessary. I don't mind Angel showing up, but I really think that Buffy could have benefited from solving loose ends like Buffy's relationship with the Scoobies especially Giles after Empty Places, a meaningful Xander/Anya scene just to make it clear if they were back together or not, Xander dealing with losing an eye and how it's affecting his daily life, a much better way to save the world in Chosen than a last minute thought amulet and so on.

Agreed, except all of that makes me mind Angel showing up. (And given the fact that Willow was performing the slayer empowerment spell and Buffy/Willow had been miserably fractured for at least two years and Buffy/Giles had just really been miserably fractured for like, five eps, I think a Buffy/Willow scene was more necessary than a Buffy/Giles scene.)

I also disagree that Angel was so important to the first three seasons that he somehow deserves to be in the finale. I generally like my TV emotionally realistic and there's nothing more emotionally realistic as the facts of the life that sometimes people who used to be important to someone move away and they may wander in sometimes but they don't conveniently show up during a "finale" to ask for a relationship status update.

Plus, his appearance was effing useless. Maybe I could have gotten into it if it prompted Buffy to really say something new and shocking about Bangel and Spuffy. However, it didn't get Buffy to do or say anything more than everyone with a brain assumed she was feeling- she's not sure who she's going to end up with but Spike and Angel are both in her heart and options. Meh.

Nina
05-08-13, 07:24 PM
I don't really feel like any of the options in the poll fits my opinion. I don't think it was necessary, but it could've been nice since I don't think an Angel cameo was out of place. Sadly enough it wasn't nice. This cameo is the reason why I'm thankful Buffy never showed up in Ats season 5, it's obvious the writers can't write a good meeting between these characters anymore. If you have to write one of the two characters completely OOC, something goes wrong. Also Chosen was too crowdy, it just wasn't a good episode and Angel's cameo that started the canon triangle of doom in the very last episode only made it worse and sucked even more air out of the episode. It was a waste of space. But I think that if the writers weren't obsessed with shipping and the wars between ships, they could've made something that would add something to the episode.

watcher1006
06-08-13, 09:52 PM
I think that it was a fine idea in principle to bring Angel back for the finale. For the symbolism - Angel having been there at the beginning of Buffy's Sunnydale journey, Angel there at the end. But "Chosen" was just overstuffed with ideas that didn't gel as a whole. What else could Buffy do but send him away - like "sorry we have too many characters in the story already we can't use you"? And as for the crossover story with the (compliments of Wolfram & Hart) amulet, why couldn't the writers have gone by Angel's comment to Lilah in Angel S4 "Home" - "Buffy can handle herself"? The moral ambiguity of the deus ex machina that was thrown in at the last minute to bail out Buffy and Co. clouded the meaning of the victory - whose victory was it anyway?

And as for Buffy's "cookie dough" speech, for me it is one of my most disliked pieces of dialogue in a a show that was full of great dialogue.

So, in my opinion, I appreciated the idea of Angel showing up on the show for the finale but his appearance was not dramatically necessary and it was awkward and unsatisfactory.

MikeB
07-08-13, 04:06 AM
Yes.

For the Shanshu, this could obviously be the 'Shanshu' apocalypse.

It was perhaps necessary to designate that Spike was more of a "champion" than Angel.

It made Wolfram and Hart seem more competent than they were in previous Seasons (or at least proved the First Evil was more of a threat than Adam, and Glory).

Given that Buffy possibly wasn't going to be in AtS s5, the Angel/Buffy/Spike dynamic needed to be addressed.

It signified in ways that Joss seemed to like Buffy/Spike more than Buffy/Angel. The episode is titled "Chosen" (7.22) and she chose to be with Spike over Angel and her last line/word in BtVS is "Spike."

Given "Home" (A 4.22), it would have been bizarre if Angel didn't show up. Was he going to mail the amulet to Buffy? Was it going to be an off-screen or offhand reference like "Oh, this is the amulet Angel sent."?

Going back to Buffy/Spike, it's somewhat similar to Oz coming back and Willow choosing Tara. It's somewhat similar to Drusilla showing up in "Crush" (5.14) and Spike choosing Buffy.

Plus, why wouldn't Angel be there to try to stop the world from ending? In AtS s2, Angel was in another dimension when the Glorificus fight was happening. It's somewhat strange that no one in Sunnydale seemed to care (or perhaps be aware of) that Los Angeles was in darkness and being overrun by vampires and other demons.

dorotea
27-08-13, 05:06 AM
Those seven minutes were my favorite part of the season and the only reason to re watch it. So, I guess I am in the minority. I am sure I would not have been even remotely interested in AtS S5 or the comics if these seven minutes were not there.

MikeB
03-10-13, 07:30 AM
Sosa lola


I don't mind Angel showing up, but I really think that Buffy could have benefited from solving loose ends like Buffy's relationship with the Scoobies especially Giles after Empty Places, Buffy’s relationship with the Scoobies was dealt with much like it was in “Dead Man’s Party” (3.02). As for Giles, Buffy shouldn’t be fully forgiving him mere days after he tried to help murder Spike and days after he helped kick her out of Buffy and Co. and installed Faith as leader.


a meaningful Xander/Anya scene just to make it clear if they were back together or not, That was already dealt with. They weren’t but they still had feelings for each other.


Xander dealing with losing an eye and how it's affecting his daily life, We can assume things. That’s not important enough to spend time on. This show is titled Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not ‘day in the life of Xander’.


a much better way to save the world in Chosen than a last minute thought amulet and so on. They could have had Willow make a giant sunlight spell. The amulet was mostly about the Angel-Buffy-Spike dynamic, and a plausible way to get Spike to Los Angeles without having to ‘end’ Buffy/Spike.



Dipstick


I also disagree that Angel was so important to the first three seasons that he somehow deserves to be in the finale. BtVS likely wouldn’t have made it past BtVS S1 without Angel. A lot of the viewership was tuning in for Buffy/Angel. Also, SMG liked David Boreanaz and was friends with him (and she’s currently following him on Twitter).

Plus, Angel was the ‘elephant in the room’ regarding the Buffy/Spike relationship.


Plus, his appearance was effing useless. Maybe I could have gotten into it if it prompted Buffy to really say something new and shocking about Bangel and Spuffy. However, it didn't get Buffy to do or say anything more than everyone with a brain assumed she was feeling- she's not sure who she's going to end up with but Spike and Angel are both in her heart and options. Meh. His appearance was more about Spike and his feelings about his relationship with Buffy than it was about Buffy or Angel.

Spike saw Buffy basking, saw her kiss Angel, and possibly heard the ‘Cookie Dough’ stuff. Spike wanted Buffy for himself and didn’t want to share heart with anyone else (aside from maybe Willow and Dawn). Seeing and hearing what he did prompted him to decide to die instead of stay with her, and kept him away from her in AtS s5.

Without Angel showing up, in-verse, Spike likely would have never gone to Los Angeles.



Nina


If you have to write one of the two characters completely OOC, something goes wrong. Assuming you mean Angel: he wasn’t written OOC. He acted much as he did in “The Yoko Factor” (4.20) except more pronounced since he considered Spike an actual threat to his relationship with Buffy.


I think that if the writers weren't obsessed with shipping and the wars between ships, they could've made something that would add something to the episode. At the time, it was assumed SMG was going to do 5 episodes of AtS s5. If she clearly chose Spike, there wouldn’t be much tension or relative anticipation for her appearances in AtS s5. Had Joss known at the time that she wouldn’t be in any episodes of AtS s5, it’s possible he would have written “Chosen” (7.22) a little differently.