PDA

View Full Version : Angel & Faith #20 Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)



Stoney
27-03-13, 12:23 AM
Set up and ready from Georgia's advance review (http://leykimayri.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/review-angel-faith-20-spike-and-faith/#more-783) spoilers galore.

Reddygirl
27-03-13, 02:31 AM
After reading Georgia's review I can only say once again how glad I am that I stopped reading this title around issue 11.

cil_domney
27-03-13, 05:10 AM
After reading Georgia's review I can only say once again how glad I am that I stopped reading this title around issue 11.

I was so disgusted and disappointed with the last issue - I don't look forward to reading this issue. Especially the Spike making a move of Faith and the other two women in contrast to the lines Buffy has about Spike and his alien insects in the previews.

I don't about anyone else, but I find even the tiniest bit of reference and connection to Angel and sex and any mention of Buffy after his choices and conduct and the events he helped initiate as Twilight highly offensive. I can't say in public the extend to what I feel about the treatment of women that these comic books have presented.

ubi4soft
27-03-13, 05:39 AM
For the definition of character bashing see Spike's portrayal by Christos Gage in the latest issue of A&F.

Xane
27-03-13, 07:00 AM
I really don't understand why they had him reject Morgan, who was all in, for Harmony, who is just going to end up hurt. Unless that's the point. To make Spike look even worse by hurting Harmony. Blech.
No thanks. Not my Spike.

Sky
27-03-13, 07:08 AM
Do they seriously think that by dragging Spike through mud, they'll make us like Angel more. Because someone has to tell them they are doing the exact opposite of that.

Local Maximum
27-03-13, 07:18 AM
There's also a worse possibility, which is that Gage et al. don't think it makes Spike look bad to have sex with Harmony regardless of their history (and her presumably being hung up on him) because she's a dumb pornstar who gets what she deserves. Sigh.

The fact that Angel apparently gives him Harmony's number suggests that is actually a pretty likely interpretation of how the creative staff views Harmony.

Tennyoelf
27-03-13, 07:55 AM
I actually read this issue. Well, parts that I could read without getting the heebie-jeebies and well, here is what I got to say:

Sickening. I have never felt so much visceral disgust at a comic book before. Not even with the Twilight debacle. This is the worst characterization I have ever read of Spike, except IDW’s Willingham’s take on the character. As a Spike fan, this is isn’t Spike. I don’t recognize this caricature as Spike.

For these two issues I have actually felt honest dislike for my favorite character. My heart goes out to Angel fans who have had to put up with this bad characterization for the last twenty issues. I wish Joss were writing these comics, because I think season 9 would have been epic and perhaps one of the best seasons under his belt. But sadly the potential of season 9 has been wasted. I honestly weep at the thought. I felt season 8 could have been salvageable, and Buffy and Angel redeemable. Only if. If only.

Here is some fun fanwank: Spike, on his way to help Angel, was abducted by shape shifting demons in order for them to garner secrets and weakness regarding both Buffy and Angel, since they seek vengeance because they broke the Seed. In the meantime one of the demons took Spike’s shape and went over to Angel and Faith. There, Angel, being smart, noticed it right away. At the end he called Harmony as a ruse and when this Spike personator took the bait Angel jumped into action to find and save actual Spike from the other shape shifting demons. Once Spike was free he got a call from Buffy regarding Dawn and took off to help. (That explains the bad characterization and why Spike wasn’t there immediately to help with the Dawn situation.)

Local Maximum
27-03-13, 07:59 AM
Here is some fun fanwank: Spike, on his way to help Angel, was abducted by shape shifting demons in order for them to garner secrets and weakness regarding both Buffy and Angel, since they seek vengeance because they broke the Seed. In the meantime one of the demons took Spike’s shape and went over to Angel and Faith. There, Angel, being smart, noticed it right away. At the end he called Harmony as a ruse and when this Spike personator took the bait Angel jumped into action to find and save actual Spike from the other shape shifting demons. Once Spike was free he got a call from Buffy regarding Dawn and took off to help. (That explains the bad characterization and why Spike wasn’t there immediately to help with the Dawn situation.)

Sounds good to me. One presumes that Spike, Angel, Faith and anyone else involved in this have sworn a secret oath reluctantly to pretend that that was Spike, since those events may be mentioned in future issues -- and this was done because of [magic phlebotinum] which makes it so that aliens might kill cute puppies if they state outright that this substitution took place.

These same aliens *may* have been responsible for other characterization lapses in the past (I will not choose any particular examples, leaving those as an exercise for the reader).

cil_domney
27-03-13, 08:03 AM
There's also a worse possibility, which is that Gage et al. don't think it makes Spike look bad to have sex with Harmony regardless of their history (and her presumably being hung up on him) because she's a dumb pornstar who gets what she deserves. Sigh.

The fact that Angel apparently gives him Harmony's number suggests that is actually a pretty likely interpretation of how the creative staff views Harmony.

Why should there be any worries over Harmony since they had their greatest friggin hero/champion screw over his proclaimed "love of his life and forever soul mate" - having Whistler screw over same woman, have Angel ala Twangel brutalize other slayers and bring about the death of who knows how many people. Have Andrew bring all that same crap of "let's screw Buffy by violating her at a party, stealing her body, stealing her mind and trying her into a friggin BuffoRobot.

Do these people over at Dark Horse have any idea how much they are destroying the franchise for so many devoted fans? They can count me out of their customers for their intended season 10. They only reason that I will continue to purchase this season is because I have the entire bloody series and I might as well stay with it to the end.

Tennyoelf
27-03-13, 08:06 AM
There's also a worse possibility, which is that Gage et al. don't think it makes Spike look bad to have sex with Harmony regardless of their history (and her presumably being hung up on him) because she's a dumb pornstar who gets what she deserves. Sigh.

The fact that Angel apparently gives him Harmony's number suggests that is actually a pretty likely interpretation of how the creative staff views Harmony.

If this is really the mind set of the writers then I think that explains a lot, unfortunately. If "She doesn't have a soul, she's an evil demon, she doesn't count, she's a slut, Spike already a bad boy/hero who would never be tainted by sleeping with a soulless monster, etc" is their excuse then, well, I think it's self explanatory. Disgusting again, but it makes things clear on how they stand.


Sounds good to me. One presumes that Spike, Angel, Faith and anyone else involved in this have sworn a secret oath reluctantly to pretend that that was Spike, since those events may be mentioned in future issues -- and this was done because of [magic phlebotinum] which makes it so that aliens might kill cute puppies if they state outright that this substitution took place.

These same aliens *may* have been responsible for other characterization lapses in the past (I will not choose any particular examples, leaving those as an exercise for the reader).

Right! And by not talking about these events lead to much angst and heartbreak, but the audience will never see this in depth character study because it happened between issues and we just need to assume it happened.

Morphia
27-03-13, 08:52 AM
Angel and Spike come out of this looking pretty bad. It's Angel that gives Spike Harmony's number. You might even say he 'procures' her for Spike.

I think the vibe Gage is going for is this: Big Brother Angel thinks Little Brother Spike needs to blow off some steam (as it were), so he does the equivalent of buy him a toy. Neither of them think Harmony counts as a person, and apparently neither does Gage.

He also doesn't appear to have taken in the fact that in AtS season 5, Harmony baulked at having sex with Spike again because she knew he didn't respect her, and that in the folloiwing episode (Harm's Way), she points this out to him and he sort of apologises (characters with souls are never really allowed to apologise to characters without them).

I also think, after reading this, that Gage can't have paid much attention when watching season 7 of BtVS. He obviously missed the conversation in the basement in Never Leave Me when Spike told Buffy she liked men that hurt her and she said that wasn't so. She didn't prefer him as a monster. I think he's at least self-aware enough to know this else way did he bother going and getting his soul back? Likewise, I think season 7 shows pretty clearly that Spike did not consider himself 'not such a bad fellow' when he didn't have a soul.

But Gage seems to have missed all this or decided it doesn't count, or that Spike was lying, or something, I don't know. Someone should ask him.

In short, I think we're supposed to thinks the Harmony incident is funny. We, too, are supposed to think it doesn't matter 'because it's Harmony' (hey, Angel says so, so it must be true).

Stoney
27-03-13, 09:04 AM
So Spike had no valid or positive impact last issue and this issue he slept with Harmony, but only after he hit on any female in his vicinity. This was even more pathetic than I expected and my expectations were pretty low. I have never held back in how much I dislike Harmony, she is awful, vapid and I see zero value in her personally. Spike is a free agent and, to many, very attractive, so why do we have to have him so pathetic that he is not even able to get meaningless sex without having Angel pimp him Harmony, which was completely and utterly foul. And Angel also gets to label Spike for being shallow at the same time even though this was his suggestion, his ‘thank you’, he wouldn’t do that for Faith but he just knows Spike so well that this would be what he wanted/needed, utter, utter yuk. Despite all the bad writing this season I was surprised at how abysmal this was. There is no personality compatibility between Spike and Harmony he just uses her for sex and they totally validated that here just to get some action into the comics because this was entirely void of any meaning. Oh no, wait because in S5 of AtS Spike realised that using Harmony when she cared for him made him an arse and he shouldn’t do it. So now he is just the arse who doesn’t care that he realised that he was an arse and just did it again anyway. It was pretty boring and you’ve regressed him past his own development, great writing, well done.

So the point is supposed to be that he is trying to get over Buffy but can't fully yet. So fine, this was all about polyfilla emotional response but did they have to make him play the desperate fool with no standards to do it for gods sake. Plus this seems a step down and far, far away from what he went through and where he was at in his mini. His characterisation is pretty unrecognisable in this crossover to how he has appeared in S8/S9 and his mini (and I miss VG’s voicing and Paul Lee’s art). I can’t wait to see Spike leave A&F, his visit was completely awful, roll on April.

My desperate attempts to make some sense here… this could be a set up/link for Spike/Buffy addressing the post Chosen/AtS period, but I very, very, very much doubt it. Or perhaps they are gearing up for her chasing him a bit whilst he gets more aloof. He is so sure she isn’t interested it would make sense from a writing pov that this is about the time she finally decides she is. Maybe we are supposed to be seeing him subconsciously react to how he perceives Buffy actually preferred him (which only makes sense if he is totally ignoring the relationship they had in S6 and their development in S7 beyond that, but hey ho). Or perhaps it is all just gearing up to him being turned human or some such change, they have so heavily laboured now how unhappy he is in the status of being a souled vamp.

Perhaps this is all supposed to be symptomatic of him moving on, of him looking for his own path. But whereas the idea that he was wanting to settle his wanderlust and find a better balance for his souled side, find a ‘home’ etc seemed to be the message by the end of his mini, which felt progressive and mature, we now seem to have backslid massively from that to wanting to be ‘wicked’ and the ‘big bad’ because he’s better that way. Can it be OK for him to have relationships/dalliances with evil/soulless females? How is that progressive or a good thing? They have teased him losing his soul here, although against this at least it hurt more when it was heading out, so maybe not. But importantly, it feels like they are repeatedly having him talk regretfully about having got his soul or that he didn’t really need it. Sadly, and as a Spike-centric fan this bothers me far, far more than anything else, it is basically to the point of him forgetting and no longer valuing what he did and why he did it. Geez, not good.

Maggie
27-03-13, 09:20 AM
Huh. Maybe it's because I was expecting the worst that I end up thinking this is OK. The last few pages excepted I think it's very, very good, and I don't think those last few pages are as bad as folks are making out.

To jump to the last few pages ... yes, the answer is straight up that they are seeing Harmony as a girl who just likes sex. They don't play her as having special feelings for Spike. Spike does go for that. And while I myself wish our culture were otherwise, the fact of the matter is that in the world at large emotion-free hook ups are deemed perfectly fine, so long as both parties consent, which in this case they do. What had been objectionable about Spike and Harmony in AtS 5 -- that Spike was using a Harmony who still had feelings for him, isn't present here. I think it's safe to say that Harmony isn't where she was a few years back -- she *has* moved on.

I had been worried that they were portraying Spike the way IDW did, but I don't think that flies either. The Harmony hook-up wasn't even Spike's idea. And while he does go for it, I think it's somewhat believable, because what this issue does well is explore just how messed up Spike is these days -- in a way I found more compelling than the mini.

So let's rewind to the top. Let me just note some reactions as I re-read:

1. We start with a reference to Spike's big heroic final act in Chosen. That strikes me as a good place to start.

2. We cut to Angel switching between his three 'voices' -- the Giles voice is talking about Angel having murdered Jenny. Not a bad contrast from my POV.

3. Yes Alasdair talks about three beings, but he quickly concedes there are just differences in personas -- and that strikes me as an apt characterization of Angel's situation vis a vis Angelus. Of course, that does mean the guy is basically schizo, but really it just means that Angel hasn't integrated himself, and we already knew this.

4. Angel was in fact self-harming in the aftermath of Twilight. So the panel of him blood-covered in #40 is explained.

5. Spike gets to be knowledgeable about magical gizmos, and he actually arrives at a potential solution to the dilemma faster than Alasdair. The whole scene gives us a sober, competent Spike, which is a refreshing change, I'd say.

6. The gizmo Spike thought of can be found in the possession of demons that eat souls. Hard to describe all the dialogue that happens here, but it's nice and dense. Spike's reaction to the news of where the gizmo is, is to suggest another alternative, namely drawing out Giles' soul with some other gizmo and letting it go to its eternal reward. Faith is having none of this and is clearly not connecting why these demons would be something Spike in particular would not want to face. Spike goes along with this, and gets a nice panel of dialogue showing concern for Giles. So basically, this is a nice answer to the bratty Spike who doesn't care about others. He is concerned that Giles' body be tended to, and he goes off to risk losing the soul he fought for in order to further the project to resurrect him.

7. Faith and Spike talk about resurrections in general, and it's a nice balance of the issues we fans talk about. Resurrections can be rough on the dead, but they can be good.

8. Spike comments that Faith used to be more fun (since she's been pretty focused on Giles and therefore intense, etc.). She replies she's matured. This will be the theme for the episode, Spike reflecting on his own new-found maturity and wondering if it's worth it. Anyway, his reply to Faith that there's no cure for the "less fun" bit of being mature, but sometimes life gives you opportunities to vent your frustrations. This is, of course, what lies behind Spike's choice to use the number Angel gives him.

9. Spike and Faith fight the soul-eating demons. After the battle, Spike says the bloody soul hurts more coming out than going in. He didn't lose the soul, but there had been a battle for it. Faith now realizes what's been at stake for Spike. Spike wants to carry on and keep going after these demons, and again there's a nice exchange between Spike and Faith, with her recognizing why he wouldn't want to go back to who he was, and him giving a kind of resigned/depressed answer about it not being a terrible risk since he wasn't an evil maniac without the soul, and some might have preferred him that way.

10. Spike does hit on Faith, but on the basis that they are two people who have been lonely for a while. Not the leering "I just want to get shagged" sort of stuff. I think there's a typo on this page where it says Xander but should say Robin. Anyway, Faith's turn-down is (a) Spike isn't the bad boy any more, in fact he's more like Angel and (b) she doesn't want to be rebound girl.

11. What follows is a conversation about whether Spike is or is not like Angel, with some word-punning off the Spangel connection thrown in for fun. Anyway, through this conversation, Faith has partly been working to make Spike mad, since they're beating up these demons, and it works -- he slices through them no problem.

12. Faith gives Spike some good advice about how getting laid won't get him over Buffy, but getting over Buffy might get him laid. Spike tries to say he's over her now, but of course he's not.

13. Clearly Spike isn't taking Faith's advice, because he does try to make a move on the aunts. I actually like the way this plays, too. He name drops some poets in an effort to impress them, but they have no idea what he's talking about. But the aunts turn him down because he seems like the sort who'd want to get attached, though he might have been fun if he didn't have a soul. This, of course, leaves Spike morbidly depressed.

14. They send Spike off to watch over crazy!Angel while they do the whatever they do with this gizmo that's been retrieved.

15. Spike then vents to the catatonic crazy Angel. The upshot of the vent is that Buffy wants nothing to do with him now that he's capable of real emotions, but he's stuck with the real emotions feeling bad about everything (I read this as hurt about being rejected, + the heap of guilt that comes with the soul).

16. There's a segue to the whatever they're doing (I don't want to say spell because that's not supposed to be what they're doing). Faith gets to speak to Giles basically inviting his soul into this gizmo (or something). Anyway, I find it an emotionally moving couple of panels -- she just flat out needs him, that's why she's changed her tune on the resurrection thing.

17. More of Spike's monologue, now veering to the topic of women not liking nice guys, and then being honest with himself about how he's never been any good on his own. He then moves on to a favorite theme of mine -- namely that Angel managed to move on from Buffy just fine. Angel comes back to himself (the gizmo whatever has obviously worked at this point), and says he's not over Buffy. Since Angel did everything Spike named -- found work, saw other women, built a life of his own -- I'd say it's clear he had moved on in important ways, whatever it is he might want to tell himself. Anyway, the panels after Spike realizes that he wasn't just venting to a catatonic Angel the whole time are really well done. Spike says exactly what Spike would say. And that's when Angel texts him the number. He tells Spike that Spike's problem is that he just needs to get back on his feet, that he's currently over thinking things too much.

And that brings us to Harmony, with whom Spike won't have to think.

Anyway, I was all set to hate this issue based on the review. But I really don't. The plot point I don't like (harmony) is done as well as it could be. And everything leading up to it is really, really good. I feel like that's all true to Spike. And while it wouldn't be my choice if I were writing this, I don't think it's character assassination to have him go along with Angel's suggestion about getting out of his head by having some mindless sex with a girl who isn't going to make any demands on him. (And again, there is nothing here that suggests that Harmony has the same feelings for Spike that she had back in AtS 5 -- so really, just mindless casual sex. Which if I understand correctly -- old fogey that I am -- is supposed to be just a-ok for all parties these days. Isn't it slut-shaming to say/suggest otherwise?

If I did want to rant about something, it would be that we can now officially add Spike to the list of people who have no problem whatsoever with what Angel did as Twilight. It just doesn't come up and it obviously never will. But for me at this point the big Twilight/Angel White Wash program is just baked in the cake -- so I will have to be content with the nice reminder that Angel is a schizophrenic dude who murdered Jenny and Giles and who did not choose to get a soul.

Tennyoelf
27-03-13, 09:38 AM
Sorry, any type of writing that has Spike regret getting a soul and the fact he has one causing him to be depressed doesn't jive with me at all.

No, I personally think it takes a big dump on his character. He knows why he needs a soul and wouldn't want to be without it.

Local Maximum
27-03-13, 09:40 AM
Huh. Maybe it's because I was expecting the worst that I end up thinking this is OK. The last few pages excepted I think it's very, very good, and I don't think those last few pages are as bad as folks are making out.

To jump to the last few pages ... yes, the answer is straight up that they are seeing Harmony as a girl who just likes sex. They don't play her as having special feelings for Spike. Spike does go for that. And while I myself wish our culture were otherwise, the fact of the matter is that in the world at large emotion-free hook ups are deemed perfectly fine, so long as both parties consent, which in this case they do. What had been objectionable about Spike and Harmony in AtS 5 -- that Spike was using a Harmony who still had feelings for him, isn't present here. I think it's safe to say that Harmony isn't where she was a few years back -- she *has* moved on.

I had been worried that they were portraying Spike the way IDW did, but I don't think that flies either. The Harmony hook-up wasn't even Spike's idea. And while he does go for it, I think it's somewhat believable, because what this issue does well is explore just how messed up Spike is these days -- in a way I found more compelling than the mini.

OK, that is good to hear. I look forward to reading it myself -- that sounds like it plays better than I had imagined. To be clear, my problem with it very much is a result of Spike and Harmony's history (and possibly also related to Harmony's soullessness? though that is more complicated), rather than an actual objection to casual sex. I am glad to hear someone saying that it doesn't play so badly, so I am more optimistic.

Do we know Harmony's over Spike? I guess I kind of see Spike/Harmony as a parallel to *aspects* of Buffy/Spike, and souled!Spike/soulless!Harmony in AtS s5 as being like Buffy/soulless!Spike in s6. Spike isn't over Buffy -- so it's not inconceivable to me that Harmony might not be over Spike. (I know Harmony's feelings for Spike aren't as deep as Spike's for Buffy -- but they are as deep as Harmony got.)

Also, while things have changed since vampires came out of the closet -- usually souled-being/soulless-being sex is depicted as a morally complicated thing that needs close examination. (Having read more of your review:) Ahh, but that fits with the sadness re: his soul, so is maybe thematically on point.

I'm glad that the rest of the issue worked for you! I am not sure when I will be able to get a copy....

Maggie
27-03-13, 09:48 AM
Sorry, any type of writing that has Spike regret getting a soul and the fact he has one causing him to be depressed doesn't jive with me at all.

No, I personally think it takes a big dump on his character. He knows why he needs a soul and wouldn't want to be without it.

But he doesn't seriously want to be without it. That's not even a question. He didn't want to go fight the soul-eating demons, right?

He's just in a depressed place, and he's complaining that life with a soul is no bed of roses. Maturity does come with some costs. It's actually a fine bit of writing to notice that. But by no means should this be understood as Spike *regretting* that he got the soul in the sense that he'd undo it if he could. It's more like the person who got the big promotion they'd always wanted, complaining about the weight of responsibility that comes with it. Or the person who is married complaining about not having as much time to herself as she did when she was single. Noticing that there are downsides to desirable situations one wouldn't trade-away for all the world is completely and totally human.

Max: In AtS 5 Harmony talked about her feelings for Spike non stop. They don't show up here at all. I think they've written her as moved on. I do agree that the soul/no soul thing is a bigger problem, or would be if this was anything other than a one-time hook-up. There's nothing here that plays on the B/S parallels the way that Spike/Harmony did in AtS 5. I really don't think that's the point at all.

Stoney
27-03-13, 09:53 AM
Maggie, ignoring the Angel element to the Spike/Harmony hook up, I could probably agree with your overall feeling and be happy that Spike is just being reactionary if it wasn't for the way he devalues himself, his soul and his relationship history with Buffy he suddenly seems to misunderstand. Whilst I feel some reassurance from hearing a Spike fan see a different angle to the issue, does it not bother you that his soul seems to be a regretful hindrance to him at the moment?

Local Maximum
27-03-13, 10:03 AM
Max: In AtS 5 Harmony talked about her feelings for Spike non stop. They don't show up here at all. I think they've written her as moved on. I do agree that the soul/no soul thing is a bigger problem, or would be if this was anything other than a one-time hook-up. There's nothing here that plays on the B/S parallels the way that Spike/Harmony did in AtS 5. I really don't think that's the point at all.

Cool. I think it will probably still bother me because that history is there, and I feel like they should mine that or acknowledge it. But it sounds less of a problem than it sounded like initially.

I can't comment much not having read the issue but I definitely see how someone could bemoan their soul without actually genuinely wanting it gone or dismissing its value. Buffy spends a whole season mostly wishing she were dead, and half of that is after she's consciously realized she doesn't want to die, and she unconsciously probably knew that from Bargaining (she didn't jump off that tower a second time, after all). Depression makes you hate things that are good but come with other things that aren't good, it makes sense. Doesn't even have to be depression.

Maggie
27-03-13, 10:05 AM
Maggie, ignoring the Angel element to the Spike/Harmony hook up, I could probably agree with your overall feeling and be happy that Spike is just being reactionary if it wasn't for the way he devalues himself, his soul and his relationship history with Buffy he suddenly seems to misunderstand. Whilst I feel some reassurance from hearing a Spike fan see a different angle to the issue, does it not bother you that his soul seems to be a regretful hindrance to him at the moment?

Like I just said to Tenny, not really. Nothing worth having is easy. And it's totally human to get down about the costs that come with good things. But that just is what maturity is -- pursuing the higher goods that happen to also come with higher costs. Spike has done that.

Right now the cost is high. He does not have a place in the world. As he says, he's never been good by himself. It has to hurt a lot to become a better man and discover that it's still not enough to buy you a real connection -- especially when the soul makes you need real connections more than you ever did before. I think it's a nice poignant exploration of where Spike is. Along the way we get to see Spike being smart and brave and compassionate. I don't love the last few pages, but they are understandable enough and they don't outweigh all the goodness that comes before that.

Tennyoelf
27-03-13, 10:10 AM
But he doesn't seriously want to be without it. That's not even a question. He didn't want to go fight the soul-eating demons, right?

He's just in a depressed place, and he's complaining that life with a soul is no bed of roses. Maturity does come with some costs. It's actually a fine bit of writing to notice that. But by no means should this be understood as Spike *regretting* that he got the soul in the sense that he'd undo it if he could. It's more like the person who got the big promotion they'd always wanted, complaining about the weight of responsibility that comes with it. Or the person who is married complaining about not having as much time to herself as she did when she was single. Noticing that there are downsides to desirable situations one wouldn't trade-away for all the world is completely and totally human.


It didn't really read that way to me. Or if it was meant to come across, then something got lost along the way.

And him getting out of a depressed state just by having some meaningless sex seems...and with Harmony (can't he just have a one night stand with, idk, a girl at a club or something, someone with a soul that isn't looking anything but a good time instead of Harm?? Or better yet, a party slayer looking for a good time.)? No, I really don't buy this issue at all. The problems Spike should be facing should be the fact that he doesn't have a place to call home, that he hasn't been grounded, that he hasn't been connecting to anyone, and that even if he still loves Buffy, it shouldn't cause him to feel this depressed (to the point he rags on his soul). He saw the space-frak, he was making out with with another girl, he should have known for awhile now that Buffy rejected/wasn't into him and that a split second hope revival should have only strengthened his resolve to move on. Instead they link him feeling depressed about the soul on Buffy rejecting him. He wants to be a bad boy again because Buffy doesn't want him? That isn't good. That is just what I was worried about a long time ago.

There is no maturity here that I can see. Sure, it's human to complain about the hardships, but I feel like it's hitting all the wrong ones. Ones that shouldn't matter. Spike got a soul, he knows why he needs it and Spike from the TV show doesn't ever, for one second, regret it. They are making Spike seem like a "nice guy", like since he was nice enough to get a soul Buffy owes him or some other ridiculous thing. It's really, really bad characterization.

This is regression and in no way moves Spike forward positively except that we should think that Spike is now "on his feet" for blowing off steam by having sex. Really?


EDIT:


Right now the cost is high. He does not have a place in the world. As he says, he's never been good by himself. It has to hurt a lot to become a better man and discover that it's still not enough to buy you a real connection -- especially when the soul makes you need real connections more than you ever did before.

I feel like he learned (mostly) this in season 7. He knows that now that he has a soul things a different. It's why he didn't just jump right to Buffy and try to be with her then. Only thing he really needed was to make other connections. Like, idk, continue the one he had with Dawn (non-romantic) or make an actual friend (Hey, Dowling maybe?).

Stoney
27-03-13, 10:13 AM
Sorry, I saw your response to Tenny after. I don't know. I can see where you are coming from but some of the things he says, linked with sex with a soulless demon at the end where there is 'no rest for the wicked' seemed a rejection of the life he has worked towards to me. Sure it is a one night stand (we assume) with Harmony but I do think it still matters that she is evil and he is sleeping with her, that doesn't reflect well on him and it was an issue with Morgan potentially too. Have they ever shown Angel sleep with someone soulless or consider it?

Morphia
27-03-13, 10:43 AM
Why should there be any worries over Harmony since they had their greatest friggin hero/champion screw over his proclaimed "love of his life and forever soul mate" - having Whistler screw over same woman, have Angel ala Twangel brutalize other slayers and bring about the death of who knows how many people. Have Andrew bring all that same crap of "let's screw Buffy by violating her at a party, stealing her body, stealing her mind and trying her into a friggin BuffoRobot.

Do these people over at Dark Horse have any idea how much they are destroying the franchise for so many devoted fans? They can count me out of their customers for their intended season 10. They only reason that I will continue to purchase this season is because I have the entire bloody series and I might as well stay with it to the end.

Have to say, the more I think about it, the more this bothers me. As Maggie and others have pointed out, the Spike/Harmony sex is consensual. I don't like it, because it seems to be a pattern with Spike - be on the outs with the woman he loves, take it out on Harmony - but as Maggie says that's not so much in play now Harmony has her own life.

But what does bother me - a hell of a lot - is Angel's and Faith's breathtaking hypocrisy in calling what Harmony and Spike are doing 'sleazy' given what Angel did to Buffy in season 8. Spike's attitude to Harmony in this issue is less offensive than Angel's and Faith's disgusted faces and moralising talk.

Morphia
27-03-13, 10:49 AM
It didn't really read that way to me. Or if it was meant to come across, then something got lost along the way.

And him getting out of a depressed state just by having some meaningless sex seems...and with Harmony (can't he just have a one night stand with, idk, a girl at a club or something, someone with a soul that isn't looking anything but a good time instead of Harm?? Or better yet, a party slayer looking for a good time.)? No, I really don't buy this issue at all. The problems Spike should be facing should be the fact that he doesn't have a place to call home, that he hasn't been grounded, that he hasn't been connecting to anyone, and that even if he still loves Buffy, it shouldn't cause him to feel this depressed (to the point he rags on his soul). He saw the space-frak, he was making out with with another girl, he should have known for awhile now that Buffy rejected/wasn't into him and that a split second hope revival should have only strengthened his resolve to move on. Instead they link him feeling depressed about the soul on Buffy rejecting him. He wants to be a bad boy again because Buffy doesn't want him? That isn't good. That is just what I was worried about a long time ago.

There is no maturity here that I can see. Sure, it's human to complain about the hardships, but I feel like it's hitting all the wrong ones. Ones that shouldn't matter. Spike got a soul, he knows why he needs it and Spike from the TV show doesn't ever, for one second, regret it. They are making Spike seem like a "nice guy", like since he was nice enough to get a soul Buffy owes him or some other ridiculous thing. It's really, really bad characterization.

This is regression and in no way moves Spike forward positively except that we should think that Spike is now "on his feet" for blowing off steam by having sex. Really?


EDIT:


I feel like he learned (mostly) this in season 7. He knows that now that he has a soul things a different. It's why he didn't just jump right to Buffy and try to be with her then. Only thing he really needed was to make other connections. Like, idk, continue the one he had with Dawn (non-romantic) or make an actual friend (Hey, Dowling maybe?).

Yes, I agree with this. Unless we're meant to take Spike as unreliable narrator, the words that Gage has put into Spike's mouth pretty much seem to validate what Angel said to him during the big fight in Destiny. Remorse didn't factor at all into Spike getting his soul back. It was just to get in Buffy's pants, and since it didn't work, he wishes he hadn't bothered because he thinks he didn't really need it.

ETA: I do agree with Maggie that there is some good stuff for Spike in this issue. His knowledge of the essuary and mention of various poets shows that he's not completely stupid. He also has some good, sensible things to say about the dangers of resurrection (at last), but I just ended up feeling that, with some of the dialogue Gage put in Spike's mouth, he hadn't watched BtVS season 7 with very close attention.

Also, for the record, I think Spike's reasons for getting his soul back were many and complicated, and that thinking it would give him a chance with Buffy definitely entered into them (he was soulless, he didn't know any better, once he got his soul, he realised how stupid it had been of him to think that). But I don't - not for one minute - think that he now thinks he was 'not a bad fellow' without a soul and didn't really need one. Or that anyone he cares about (except maybe Dru) preferred him without one.

Tennyoelf
27-03-13, 11:03 AM
Yes, I agree with this. Unless we're meant to take Spike as unreliable narrator, the words that Gage has put into Spike's mouth pretty much seem to validate what Angel said to him during the big fight in Destiny. Remorse didn't factor at all into Spike getting his soul back. It was just to get in Buffy's pants, and since it didn't work, he wishes he hadn't bothered because he thinks he didn't really need it.

Exactly! Which is why I don't buy this issue at all. None of it is good.

I've always thought what Angel said in Destiny was only to rile up Spike. But what Spike said was also a bit off. He got it because of remorse. Because he knew he needed to change. Once he got the soul everything changed and he understood a good deal of it, right off the bat, which is why (partly) he went insane. Spike wasn't a looking to get into Buffy's pants after he got his soul. His soul made him realize just what type of person he'd become and he's been feeling this way ever since. And it was the only reason Buffy may have come to love Spike at the end, because at that point he wasn't looking for a reward for good behavior. He was just doing what came more naturally to him with a soul.

This reading (from the issue) takes a huge chunk away from the complexities of Spike and his epic journey. It really just makes him look like a dick and a "nice guy" that has no real depth.

Spike on AtS5 doesn't make sense if he only wanted the soul to get Buffy. Why didn't he go right back then, saying "Hey, I died and got soul, I deserve you now!" No, Spike saved Fred from whats-his-ghost-face, didn't want to see people get hurt, fought the good fight because he wanted to. And all that had NOTHING to do with Buffy.

So really, again, this issue is down right awful to Spike. it's disgusting, degrading and regressive and really shows a very negative outlook on Spike.

(Not to mention the "real" feelings he can finally feel with a soul....wat?)

vampmogs
27-03-13, 11:16 AM
Yes, I agree with this. Unless we're meant to take Spike as unreliable narrator, the words that Gage has put into Spike's mouth pretty much seem to validate what Angel said to him during the big fight in Destiny. Remorse didn't factor at all into Spike getting his soul back. It was just to get in Buffy's pants, and since it didn't work, he wishes he hadn't bothered because he thinks he didn't really need it.

The two aren't nescessirly antithetical. Spike did feel remorseful (as much as he could without a soul -- "Why didn't I do it?") but he absaloutely went and got his soul for Buffy, to be with Buffy;

"The spark. The missing... the piece that fit. That would make me fit. Because you didn't want... (starts to cry) God, I can't... Not with you looking."

"The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it."

"Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev— (looks away) to be a kind of man."

BUFFY
"You thought you would just come back here and... be with me?
SPIKE
First time for everything."

"I did this for you. The soul, the changes—it's what you wanted."

"Saw a demon about a girl."

"Make me what I was so Buffy can get what she deserves"

To "get in Buffy's pants" obviously doesn't do justice to what Spike went and did. It's crude and cynical (I'd describe it as Spike wanting to be with the woman he loves) but there's truth to it, sure. He did get the soul so he could be back with Buffy. I don't even feel that's debatable given how many times he says it. And that's tied up with Spike feeling badly for the AR and wanting to be the kind of man who wouldn't do that to Buffy again, but I don't think soulless!Spike could fully comprehend what that actually meant. He says as much in Never Leave Me when he said he forgot what it was like to actually have a soul, or when he says Angel "should have warned him" in Beneath You, or wanting to scratch his heart out in Lessons. He knows it's what Buffy wanted and he knows that, in theory, it will change him to be more of a man than monster, but he underestimated the impact a soul would have.

I haven't read #20 and my first reaction to what I'd heard about it was that it sounds pretty damn awful. Maggie's post has given me a little more hope so I'm remaining impartial until I've read it for myself. However, I wouldn't find it terrible if Gage lets Spike mope over the fact that he got a soul to be with Buffy and not only is he not with her but now he's stuck with all these human feelings. It's not like he wants to get rid of it, he's just lamenting over the fact that souls aren't all "moonbeams and pennywhistles" and that it didn't work out as he had planned. That's fair and I wouldn't hold it against the guy. It's not all that different to Angel moaning that "atonements a bitch."



Spike on AtS5 doesn't make sense if he only wanted the soul to get Buffy. Why didn't he go right back then, saying "Hey, I died and got soul, I deserve you now!" No, Spike saved Fred from whats-his-ghost-face, didn't want to see people get hurt, fought the good fight because he wanted to. And all that had NOTHING to do with Buffy.

Can you find a single piece of dialogue from S6/S7 where Spike says he got his soul for any other reason? Spike states repeatedly that he went and got his soul for Buffy. He never says it's because he wanted to fight the good fight, or become a hero/champion, or didn't want to see people get hurt etc. He only ever did it for/to be with Buffy.

Now, when Spike actually GOT HIS SOUL things changed. But S6!Spike had underestimated what having a soul would actually entail. Now Spike cares about helping people and fighting the good fight but that's entirely different from saying it was part of his original motivation for getting one.

Maggie
27-03-13, 11:21 AM
And him getting out of a depressed state just by having some meaningless sex seems...and with Harmony (can't he just have a one night stand with, idk, a girl at a club or something, someone with a soul that isn't looking anything but a good time instead of Harm?? Or better yet, a party slayer looking for a good time.)?

If it were just a matter of the "who", I'd agree with you. But the "how" makes it tolerable to me. Spike doesn't initiate the idea, and that takes a lot of the edge off.


No, I really don't buy this issue at all. The problems Spike should be facing should be the fact that he doesn't have a place to call home, that he hasn't been grounded, that he hasn't been connecting to anyone,.

I'd have said that's exactly what he's complaining about. Don't forget -- Spike has never been able to form connections well with folks aside from the women he's in relationship with. His deep self-image is the guy that the "cool kids" mock, but who can be redeemed/understood by that special someone. I'd like him to learn the lesson that there are other paths to connection... but it's organic to his character that he'd see the connections as having to come through Buffy. And failing that, to think that a way to establish a connection with someone like Faith (without desiring a relationship with her) would involve sex. (And I do think his move on her is about wanting to connect with her in some way over their common situation).


He saw the space-frak, he was making out with with another girl, he should have known for awhile now that Buffy rejected/wasn't into him and that a split second hope revival should have only strengthened his resolve to move on.

We know Spike hadn't moved on since he chose to stick around SF to "have Buffy's back". She's sent him mixed signals the whole way through, with the big capper of thinking of running off with him. I can see why that threw him for a loop. Mind you, I wish Spike had gotten over her back around TGIQ. But they've written him as they've written him -- and given that they have, I don't think it's strange to think that he got snagged somewhere between her flirting with him, inviting him to parties, including him in the gang, etc.


Instead they link him feeling depressed about the soul on Buffy rejecting him. He wants to be a bad boy again because Buffy doesn't want him? That isn't good. That is just what I was worried about a long time ago.

He doesn't want to be a bad boy. He just misses the way being the bad boy made things easier back in the day. Much the way a parent of a much-loved newborn probably misses getting a full night's sleep.


There is no maturity here that I can see. Sure, it's human to complain about the hardships, but I feel like it's hitting all the wrong ones. Ones that shouldn't matter. Spike got a soul, he knows why he needs it and Spike from the TV show doesn't ever, for one second, regret it.

The Spike on the show was still side-by-side with Buffy heading towards a glorious death to save the world. There was nothing depressing in that situation. Now there is no world-ending apocalypse, Buffy has no army to keep her too busy, she's sent him mixed signals, but when push comes to shove still doesn't want him. He's depressed. He's allowed to be depressed, I think. It's the outcome he expected/feared -- but those still hurt when one has to admit that it's the outcome that has happened.


They are making Spike seem like a "nice guy", like since he was nice enough to get a soul Buffy owes him or some other ridiculous thing. It's really, really bad characterization.

Eh -- for me this does a good job of showing a thick range of emotion. I can be as hyper-critical of bad Spike characterization as anyone. But I see him as giving vent to a strand of feelings -- not as someone talking about the entirety of his feelings. That's what feels like the show to me. It is completely normal for nice guys to complain about being rejected for being to nice. A million guys feel that way. I don't think it entails feeling "entitled" to being loved by the girls they are nice to. And I don't even think it means that Spike just got his soul to be with Buffy. I think he got the soul for a lot of very good reasons, but is currently depressed because part of the downside is that it is (ironically) making it harder for him to connect with people at the same time that it's making him hungrier for real connection.

Anyway, we see it in different ways. I am sorry the issue is so upsetting to so many of my fellow Spike fans. I had half-composed emails to Allie to protest this issue written in my head before I read it. But the text itself totally disarmed me. Maybe my mind will change over the next few days. But for now, I think Gage did a good job with this.


This is regression and in no way moves Spike forward positively except that we should think that Spike is now "on his feet" for blowing off steam by having sex. Really?

I seriously doubt that he's "on his feet" now. Faith gave him good advice, which he promptly ignored. He's having sex with Harmony to talk himself into thinking he's more over Buffy than he really is. That's not hardly going to work. (They didn't set up the huge theme of Spike's Unrequited Feelings for Buffy -- which has been Spike's story since the first arc of season 9 -- to have him slay that dragon in three pages at the end of an unplanned cameo in A&F).

Tennyoelf
27-03-13, 11:25 AM
Yeah, I agree. Forgot to mention. Soulless Spike went to get the soul for Buffy. But after that, after he got the soul, everything changed. I was talking about Post Soul Spike. Different dude who realizes that things are different. It doesn't mash with the BS Gage sprouted.

As Morphia says:


Also, for the record, I think Spike's reasons for getting his soul back were many and complicated, and that thinking it would give him a chance with Buffy definitely entered into them (he was soulless, he didn't know any better, once he got his soul, he realised how stupid it had been of him to think that). But I don't - not for one minute - think that he now thinks he was 'not a bad fellow' without a soul and didn't really need one. Or that anyone he cares about (except maybe Dru) preferred him without one.

vampmogs
27-03-13, 11:33 AM
As I said, I haven't read the issue yet so if Spike does say that he "wasn't a bad fellow" without a soul then, yeah, that's sucky. Unfortunately, that's a fairly common opinion amongst some fans and writers such as Lynch who stripped Spike of his soul and then tried to sell him as still being "good" without one and not really needing it, which I hated. So if Gage is of the same school of thought then that'd bug me immensely. And I would see it as a massive regression on Spike's part because, to his credit, I never thought he believed that. He knows why he needed the soul and that he was "wretched" without one. So I wouldn't defend that...

Morphia
27-03-13, 11:39 AM
To "get in Buffy's pants" obviously doesn't do justice to what Spike went and did. It's crude and cynical (I'd describe it as Spike wanting to be with the woman he loves) but there's truth to it, sure. He did get the soul so he could be back with Buffy. I don't even feel that's debatable given how many times he says it. And that's tied up with Spike feeling badly for the AR and wanting to be the kind of man who wouldn't do that to Buffy again, but I don't think soulless!Spike could fully comprehend what that actually meant. He says as much in Never Leave Me when he said he forgot what it was like to actually have a soul, or when he says Angel "should have warned him" in Beneath You, or wanting to scratch his heart out in Lessons. He knows it's what Buffy wanted and he knows that, in theory, it will change him to be more of a man than monster, but he underestimated the impact a soul would have.

I said pretty much the same thing in the last paragraph of the comment you're responding to, in fact - that his reasons for wanting a soul were messy and complicated and that wanting to get back with Buffy entered into it.

Anyone else think it's amusing (in an ironic way) that this comic has Spike moaning off about women preferring bad boys and nice guys never getting their due? That's been the complaint of so many fans about the popularity of this character over the years. He's nasty. Why do those silly girlies like him?

Deliberate?

Tennyoelf
27-03-13, 11:41 AM
He's allowed to be depressed, I think.

Yeah, he's allowed to be depressed. It just doesn't work for me in the way they executed this.

Sorry, but these comics have been on my bad side for a long time now. I may be slightly anti-comic biased. However, reading it through I actually felt sick to my stomach at the way they were portraying Spike. The interpretation was just too "Nice Guy" (http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Nice_guy_syndrome) and I hate these type of men that think they can earn sex by being "nice". It made him so desperate for sex he'd do any woman who's take him (not to mention they picked Harmony, soulless, evil, with a history with Spike). He's just more dickish than "Costume wearing Bad Boy who is more sensitive on the inside" to me in this issue.

It doesn't work for me because even if they were doing what you said Maggie, or were trying for it, it just doesn't come off to me as that. As I said before, it only comes off as Spike wanting to be evil again just because Buffy doesn't want him and that she isn't giving it up even after he got a soul (that scene with Angel catatonic, "it works for you[...]"). He's dick without a softer edge.




Can you find a single piece of dialogue from S6/S7 where Spike says he got his soul for any other reason? Spike states repeatedly that he went and got his soul for Buffy. He never says it's because he wanted to fight the good fight, or become a hero/champion, or didn't want to see people get hurt etc. He only ever did it for/to be with Buffy.

Now, when Spike actually GOT HIS SOUL things changed. But S6!Spike had underestimated what having a soul would actually entail. Now Spike cares about helping people and fighting the good fight but that's entirely different from saying it was part of his original motivation for getting one.

Dude, I'm talking about Angel the Series, season 5 (ATS5, I say it right in the quote you quoted me with, about Fred, about him dying in Chosen, almost quoting ANGEL about him fighting the good fight). I don't think season 6 Spike is good okay? Nor do I believe in soulless redemption. I was talking about POST SOUL POST SUNNYDALE Spike. I wasn't, at all, saying that it was part of his original motivation. I was saying Angel Season 5 Spike doesn't make sense if he now wants to be rid of the soul. In Angel, he doens't go off to Buffy and instead does good. This issue making it seem like he doesn't want to be soulful or good anymore simply because Buffy doesn't want him makes Spike in Angel season 5 not make sense.

TimeTravellingBunny
27-03-13, 12:20 PM
There's also a worse possibility, which is that Gage et al. don't think it makes Spike look bad to have sex with Harmony regardless of their history (and her presumably being hung up on him) because she's a dumb pornstar who gets what she deserves. Sigh.

The fact that Angel apparently gives him Harmony's number suggests that is actually a pretty likely interpretation of how the creative staff views Harmony.
Bingo.

I don't think that this issue is meant to be a "character assassination" of Spike - and if it were, it'd also be one of Angel, who pimps Harmony out to Spike. This is just what Gage sees as fun and likeable behavior in his heroes. Angel and Spike are bros, so Angel wants to help his lil' bro and helps him shag this dumb ho again to make him feel better.

But he wouldn't do that for Faith, because she's not really like that... because she's a gal, you know, who's progressed into a heroine, so of course, she's become chaste. You can see the progression: morally ambiguous/evil Faith of season 3 = flirtatious and promiscuous, reformed season 7 Faith = flirtatious but ends up in a serious relationship, heroine Faith of Angel & Faith = no sex, just platonic adoration of Angel.

As for Harmony: no, I don't think she's written as having "moved on". I think she's been written as if Gage never noticed anything in her characterization that went beyond the "dumb, shallow bimbo" stereotype. Yes, Harmony on the shows was the closest to a one-dimensional stereotype out of any of the characters, but Buffy and Angel were actually great shows with layered writing, so they subverted that by slowly and subtly adding sympathetic layers to her: while she was dumb and shallow, she still was in love (as deeply as she was capable of) and she was in an abusive relationship and used by Spike and this was shown to be wrong, and season 5 of AtS in particular focused on that as well as giving her moments where she showed compassion for others, all without changing her basic characterization as shallow and dumb. On the shows, they didn't forget that while she may be dumb and shallow and a soulless vampire, she had feelings and she was a person, after all. (Some may debate that, but if you think Spike was a person in season 5 or 6, then so is Harmony.) But in these incredibly shallow comics, every character is losing their layers, so of course Harmony is nothing but a caricature, because women like that are there just to be made fun of and use for sex. If she doesn't seem to have any feelings for Spike in this comic, it's not because she's meant to be over him (if that were the case, they'd make sure to point that out, say, Spike or Angel could be uncomfortable with it and ask her about it and she could say she's over him, but that never even comes up), but because Gage never noticed she had any feelings to begin with.

Angel & Faith has been remarkably sexist all season, and it continues to be so.

Maybe that's why Spike seems to have developed a bad case of Nice Guy (TM).


17. More of Spike's monologue, now veering to the topic of women not liking nice guys



It has to hurt a lot to become a better man and discover that it's still not enough to buy you a real connection.
^ Yes, like that.

And in the process, he's also become really confused about the past events, apparently. Buffy liked him better when he was a monster? She rejected him when he got a soul and became good?! :blink: Oh yes, I remember, Buffy was delighted with how wonderful Spike was when he was evil and embraced him wholeheartedly as her boyfriend when he was still soulless, and then was so disappointed when he got his soul back and dumped him right away. That was the Alternate Universe season 6/season 7, where the exact opposite happened. And when he became good, she immediately dumped him for "the first brooding ponce that came along"? :confused3: What is that about? I have no idea. Finally, wasn't Spike going on the whole season about Buffy needing humans and needing good guys, didn't he want her to hook up with the human "good guy" cop Dowling, and didn't he seem convinced for some reason (whatever it was) in the previous issue of this same comic that she was currently dating the human "good guy" Dowling? So where does this rant now come from?

Sometimes it seems like Gage didn't even read the Buffy title or the Spike mini, with this enormous dissonance between how the character acts there and how he acts in A&F.

Stoney
27-03-13, 12:32 PM
"Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev— (looks away) to be a kind of man."

Can you find a single piece of dialogue from S6/S7 where Spike says he got his soul for any other reason? Spike states repeatedly that he went and got his soul for Buffy. He never says it's because he wanted to fight the good fight, or become a hero/champion, or didn't want to see people get hurt etc. He only ever did it for/to be with Buffy.

I never finish that unfinished sentence in my head with it specifying Buffy personally. I think he did go to get his soul to be hers etc but in addition, I think he wanted to be the kind of man who would never do what he did. I always took it as a general wish to count as man not monster and act the way he should.

The whole issue would have read so much better if it hadn't have been a soulless female he slept with, if Angel hadn't steered him towards sex after Faith had given some sound advice and then have the nerve to scorn him and pull faces at him with Faith announcing the sleaze as Angel declares how shallow he is, for committing the action that Angel gave him a little push towards. That side by side with surrounding himself with thoughts of not having been that bad without his soul and wanting the big bad simplicity of life really does just shame the character. It could have worked better if this is where he was at in his mini but he finished that in a mature manner and then came into Angel's orbit and behaved like a chump. I really wish it was written as you see it Maggie, that could even have been the intention but I don't see it, they put him down deliberately for it at the same time and revile him. The little extras like the black nail varnish feel more like the current representation of his character rather than the irrelevancy that it was thought to be when he showed up on Alastair's doorstep. This issue just makes me sad and the only saving grace is that he will leave the title and his story will carry on but, unfortunately, this will forever be canon.

KingofCretins
27-03-13, 12:55 PM
Are there inconsistencies in this issue? Are there randomly asspulled new monsters and new soul storage bullshit? Yes.

Do I care? Nope. Why? Because Faith owned the issue from cover to cover and she no saled Spike and she was pithy and emotionally honest about Giles and even, to my eye, slightly honest about how compromised she is by this resurrection crusade.

I totally buy that Spike -- especially after having been hoodwinked into thinking there might be A Connection with Morgan -- may think that he'll need the next one to get over the last one (certainly it's a classic because it works some). I can think of someone who will be completely offended and declare it all non-canon that Spike didn't have Faith and the Aunts separately and then all together, but I loved him getting shut down. And I all but guffawed that a) it was Harmony and b) it was Angel's idea.

EDIT: "The interpretation was just too "Nice Guy" and I hate these type of men that think they can earn sex by being "nice"."

I'm not a big fan of guys thinking this either because, if anything, it's bass ackwards. "Be kind of a dick. Be David Caruso in Jade" -- The 40 Year Old Virgin :)

cil_domney
27-03-13, 01:43 PM
Spike comes over from Morgan having stated clearly how much he is still so much in love with Buffy yet all he wants now is to have sex with Faith. Hell, he should have taken Morgan on, at least she wanted to give him power, and together they would have been the Power Couple to get all. In fact, when Spike did have meaningless sex it was when he was in deep extreme anger with Buffy and as he describes it “which has witnessed some truly spectacular kickings of my ass.” The history of Spike and Harmony has not been good. The one time when they do consent to having sex at W&H, even then it all goes wrong with Spike having to knock her unconscious. Presumably Harmony is again consenting to this sexual encounter, but I don’t care for how Angel takes it for granted that she is available to satisfy Spike’s needs.

Now we are presented with Spike in “pity party mode” who wants meaningless sex as his cure. So he is going to cure himself of his Buffy love and pain by doing exactly what caused both of them so much pain - use another person as a sexual object to fulfill your personal needs. At least a prostitute would be getting paid for the service. Not to worry Spike, Angel will pimp Harmony out to you and you will get your meaningless sex cure. Of course CG and Dark Horse will first establish the caveat that this is something Angel would never do under normal circumstances. But what the heck, after all it’s only big jerk Spike and bimbo vamp Harmony so no big deal and Harmony can take the offer or not.

At least Spike was allowed some dignity and intelligence in the first third of the issue and he comes across as intelligent and knowledgeable about the rituals and artifacts. And I agree with Spike that Giles does deserve to find his peace after his death. It does not even occur to Faith that she was putting Spike in danger of losing his own soul in the pursuit of her rescue plans. It was nice to see that she finally made the connection after her tirade on not wanting to help.
Angel coming out with that when I get over Buffy I’ll let you know – To me it is absolutely disgusting that the writer and Dark horse would connect Buffy, love and Angel together after the events of his Twilight Time.

What makes both issues so “not right” for me has everything to do with Context. No matter how much Dark Horse continues to try and do damage control for their Twilight Time story; for me it is not working. They created a story where their leading Hero Character along with Whistler engaged in horrendous acts of violence and brutality on a massive scale and they don’t seem to want to take responsibility for their creation. Having Angel spend this little bit of time in pain and then he is all better playing at being the big hero and Mr. Nice Guy Big Brother – that is just not going to work for me . If anything, seeing Angel and Faith in the end of the issue made me so angry. It’s like this big joke ending where everything is just fine, no harm no foul. Giles’ body is not laying down there in that room, Angel did not just offer up Harmony as a call girl. And while it is on Spike to call and Harmony to accept, in view of the events and context, it comes off, in my POV at least as bad taste. Faith is also suffering from being used, IMO, as the voice for Dark Horse getting their message to the readers of “get over the Twilight Time Thing.”

What the heck did Alasdair mean by saying that it was Faith’s responsibility to keep the “three beings in one body” from happening? How was she supposed to do that? I don’t get the connection of either covers to the issue.

How did they manage to go from the heart breaking scene of Giles and his memories of what Angel/Angelus did to him and Jenny and end up with Angel cracking a joke about being around Houdini and escaping from his chains so easily. I personally found the resolutiong for the resolution of how to separate Giles’ soul from Angel/Angelus just a bit too easy. And sorry as I am for Faith and her grief and need for Giles, Spike I believe is right – Giles deserves to RIP. Unless Giles specifically communicates that he wants to come back into a corporeal form, Faith is just going to have to learn how to accept death and learn how to live with the loss just like most humans have to.

Spike acting like a jackass jerk, particularly in the last issue, Faith and Angel as the Great Friends and Heroes, those two aunts who don’t seem to serve much purpose in the story now, all that stupid competitive Brothers or Guy thing, the Bromance bit, Spike and the moving on sex cure; it all comes off as “flat” or forced because Angel Twilight Time did happen.

Spike would have burned to his final death if Buffy had not saved him and the alien insects had not picked him out of the sky. Buffy was used by Angel, Whistler and the Twilight Forces, vital information was kept from her by the very person who claimed to love her so completely and desperately, Giles was killed trying to effect the outcome of the battle between Buffy and Angel in his TwiAngel form. Dawn is being destroyed because of the events from the great space frak, countless innocent people died from the Twilight Time events. That is the reality against which these two issues are being played and reader will have their individual interpretations, but for me it does not satisfy because I don’t see it as reflecting realistically on past events and what all these characters have lived through.

Spike the dumb ass buffoon and Harmony the bimbo ho while the two mature good friends and heroes, and I guess we can now add Angel pimp/sex facilitator to the list - Way to go, sorry but this reader and Spike fan was nothing but disgusted with what the writer and Dark Horse has presented. Even the artwork for Spike was, IMO, below the quality that I have come to expect from the artist.

TimeTravellingBunny
27-03-13, 03:34 PM
EDIT: "The interpretation was just too "Nice Guy" and I hate these type of men that think they can earn sex by being "nice"."

I'm not a big fan of guys thinking this either because, if anything, it's bass ackwards. "Be kind of a dick. Be David Caruso in Jade" -- The 40 Year Old Virgin :)
Insert the Fry "Not sure if serious or..." meme and add: "Not sure if this warrants a :thud:, a :rotf: or both.

Moscow Watcher
27-03-13, 03:37 PM
Is Faith supposed to talk to herself on the panel where she offers to dust Angel? Or it's an editor's mistake?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/AampF20_6_zps181543bd.jpg

claudiawenlock
27-03-13, 03:41 PM
I feel lost with this issue, really I don't understand what in hell are they doing with this Spike. So now he is deppresed and sad, and there in the right moment, is pimp Angelus with Harmony´s card. I mean how could we found somethig even a little "positive" about this??
One, or there is no knowledge or conection of the story line between comics, they forgot all about Spike´s comic and just now decided to show a broken and deppresed Spike that needed to find conection (ok, to get laid) with the first girl that could acept him, and there was lucky Harmony living in london, or...
Two, there is continuity here, Spike wants to move on, but he can´t, so he decide at least he wanna get laid with somebody that dosn´t matter that much. And really who cares about Harmony!!

All this is B%ll s$%t anyway you see it. And I wonder why??, why to do that when we know Spike is going back to Buffy storilyne soon. Are we suposed to believe that when he goes back , he will be completely over Buffy??

Stoney
27-03-13, 04:40 PM
Wasn't there talk about a Q&A after 20 or was that Buffy issue 20? I have no idea what I would say to be honest so I doubt I'll participate.


EDIT:
OK I wasn't misremembering Q&A threads are open...

Christos (http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3370-Q-amp-A-with-Christos-Gage-for-ANGEL-amp-FAITH-20?p=111064#post111064)
Rebekah (http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3371-Q-amp-A-with-Rebekah-Isaacs-for-ANGEL-amp-FAITH-20?p=111066#post111066)


What do you know, I thought of something to ask. :xd

Emmie
27-03-13, 05:47 PM
Is Faith supposed to talk to herself on the panel where she offers to dust Angel? Or it's an editor's mistake?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/AampF20_6_zps181543bd.jpg

The dialogue bubble that says "you lot" is Brit speak. So while it appears to be pointing at Faith, indicating she's saying it, I'm assuming it's meant for Spike. Faith would only say that if she were trying to get close to a murderous aristocratic Brit Slayer named Gigi :p

So yeah, seems like a mistake.

Maggie
27-03-13, 05:48 PM
Well, I've had a chance to sleep on it, and while I still think the first part of the issue is better than most here seem to think, the last three pages leave me feeling increasingly sour about the whole thing. I don't think it's as bad as Spike continuing to abuse Harmony (and her unrequited love for him). But it does disregard that history, and it's skanky/skeevy on its own terms. The fact that she's soulless feels worse this morning than it did last night.

And at the end of the day, I just don't see what they were trying to do with that "resolution". Spike isn't looking to get laid for the sake of being laid in his conversation with Faith. It's much richer than that. But by the time you get to him gleefully signing up for another 6 hour session with a tied up Harmony, it undercuts the seriousness of what he's been processing through the whole issue.

So yeah, I don't hate it. But I have an increasingly queasy feeling in my gut about the Harmony bit and the way it taints the story that proceeds it.

Stoney
27-03-13, 06:17 PM
I think, to be honest, you are being too kind to the story before it. He is getting from Harmony here what I think Gage was having him seek with Faith/the aunts. It's just unpleasant and the soulless thing really bothers me.

KingofCretins
27-03-13, 06:38 PM
Harmony isn't being abused. There is no indication that Harmony doesn't know the score with Spike on love/emotion/commitment and nothing but reasons to think she is okay with sport-f#$%ing him. Isn't this what we fought the 70s for or whatever? I would have to reread that scene without as much amusement, but there would have to be something far clearer than a "Blondie bear" for me to think he is somehow tricking Harmony or ill using her.

It does sort of amuse me, though, the inversion on what makes a man a total cad in the Buffyverse vs. any other context. Let's say Spike were leading Harmony on. On their respective shows, that is how a Logan Echolls or a Chuck Bass become bad boys, charming rogues. Were their casts to encounter people with prolific histories of murder and torture. They would be appropriately horrified l. In the Buffyverse, you might think seducing Harmony without honest intentions would be the worst thing Spike could do, and that Parker is a lower form of life than Angelus.

Maggie
27-03-13, 07:03 PM
King, I don't think they are going for Spike as "abusing" Harmony. I do think there's some validity to the concern that Gage makes no note of the fact that in the past, Spike was using Harmony's feelings for him to get her to sleep with him. But for me the thing that makes those pages less and less pleasant are (a) Spike going for raw sport-f*ing undermines the more three dimensional thing I see him as being after with Faith and (b) she's soulless and he's not and (c) unlike the culture I don't think sport-f*ing is a noble thing and I don't see how it fits with the idea of 'maturity' that was the theme of the issue. So I'm actually not sure what they want us to think by having Spike go in that direction.

I'd add that your reaction also made it harder to stomach -- I don't think you'd be happy about Xander having gotten a leg over Harmony to help him get over Buffy. Though maybe I'm wrong about that. You can fill me in on whether that adds to or subtracts from the way you view a character. But I can't imagine at this point triumphantly guffawing at Xander for only being able to get laid by Harmony, etc. etc. But you did that and it makes me feel more sour about the whole thing -- this issue, the comics in general, and the fandom.

Stoney: I agree that the aunts are more towards what Spike finally gets from Harmony, but they don't bother me as much. If the issue had stopped before Angel texts the message, I'd like the issue quite a lot. There's a lot that goes into the distinction for me, but part of it is that Harmony's soulless, and that there's not even the pretense of conversation or whatever before hopping to the raw frat-house conception of sex, whoop whoop.

cil_domney
27-03-13, 07:05 PM
Is Faith supposed to talk to herself on the panel where she offers to dust Angel? Or it's an editor's mistake?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/AampF20_6_zps181543bd.jpg

My personal opinion is that Faith is being used as the surrogate voice for Dark Horse in that she gives the position of the company on what they would like for the readers to accept as the current status for Angel and the Twilight Time story.

What are the opinions and this take on this or how do you interpret the comments that Faith has been making regarding the status of Angel? She has been extremely defensive of him in several issues now and also willing to take on anyone who will challenge her perspectives on Angel.

Spike was not, IMO, out of line with his comments about Giles' soul and death and offering a different opinion of how to proceed.

Stoney
27-03-13, 07:34 PM
Stoney: I agree that the aunts are more towards what Spike finally gets from Harmony, but they don't bother me as much. If the issue had stopped before Angel texts the message, I'd like the issue quite a lot. There's a lot that goes into the distinction for me, but part of it is that Harmony's soulless, and that there's not even the pretense of conversation or whatever before hopping to the raw frat-house conception of sex, whoop whoop.

I think that was what he was offering Faith too. The 'connecting' was to try to get her to go along with it, he was just being pretty upfront and no bullshit with her because it is Faith and that would be the right approach, just how I see it. But yes, the real break point is at the text message. The thing that is awful about Harmony is that Angel took a couple of minutes of listening to Spike to decide that a) he knew that was what he needed rather than a conversation, b) Harmony was, well Harmony so that was fine, that stopped it being sleazy, c) that he thought it made Spike shallow and yet that was where he sent him rather than offering the conversation, d) that we don't know what Harmony's understanding is of what this is/what was said which could undermine his AtS 5 progress, e) that it makes him look like he had to go cheap as noone else would bother (which is harsh on both of them, f) that they keep hanging on 'wicked' and 'big bad' so he seems to embrace a regression and g) that she is soulless and that is a big issue for me.

Vampire in Rug
27-03-13, 08:24 PM
I felt that this issue was very poor. We are introduced to yet another McGuffin that shows up out of nowhere, happens to be nearby and is perfectly convenient for their current situation. Just bring back magic already, I'm sick of the characters stumbling upon a unique "self-powered" item that is entirely situational.

How does Leyki/Georgia keep getting advanced copies? She gives full spoilers for the issue, she's rarely got anything positive to say and her reviews aren't even remotely professional. I don't understand why Dark Horse would keep giving her advanced copies.

I've been enjoying the A&F series overall, but Gage writes a crap Spike. Spike is suffering from a simple case of Flanderization (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization). The drinking, smoking, joking and sexing have all been dialled way up and the character feels like an exaggeration. I disagree with the conspiracy theorists who think that Gage is deliberately sabotaging Spike's character in order to make Angel look good. I think that this is a simple case of Gage having difficulty writing Spike, so he overcompensates by amping up the qualities of Spike that he thinks to does get. Which is unfortunate, because there is more to Spike's character than drinking, smoking, jokes and sex.

That said, I did think it was pretty terrible characterisation to have Spike basically beg Faith for sex. Yeah, I get that he's supposed to be "moving on" from Buffy, but I still imagine that he'd like to think that maybe they could be together *one day* in the future, and surely hooking up with Faith would hurt his chances of that. I can't imagine that Buffy would be pleased about the idea of Spike having sex with Faith, not after Faith tried to steal Angel and did steal Riley. I think Spike would be more considerate of Buffy's feelings than to sleep with Faith, even if Buffy's not dating him right now.

Also, I think Spike would have more dignity than to (a) basically beg for sex, and then (b) demand an explanation when he gets turned down.

Also, how does Spike even know that Xander and Faith had sex? I don't recall him ever learning about that and I can't imagine why anyone would have mentioned that to him off-screen. Maybe Dawn mentioned it one time when she was hanging out with Spike?

Also, I disagree and dislike Gage's idea that Faith and Spike were keen on each other in season 7. They had a smoke together and that's it.

I really disliked Spike saying that Robin wouldn't like Faith living with Angel because he's prejudiced against vampires. He's not prejudiced dude, he doesn't like *you* because you killed his mother. I don't like that Spike still doesn't seem to understand that after all these seasons. I don't like how flippant Spike was in mentioning Robin.

I think that partnering up Spike and Faith for an issue had the potential to explore some really interesting ideas. Spike and Faith are like a mirror to Angel and Buffy. For a long time they were though of a the "inferior" vampire and Slayer, always kept on the outside and had to deal with jealously issues. Now after season 8, Spike and Faith in a lot of ways have surpassed Angel and Buffy in terms of heroism. There is a LOT that could be explored here that simply wasn't. I also think that when Spike mentioned Robin, that could also be an opportunity to explore some stuff. How does Faith feel about Spike's treatment of Robin and Nikki? Again, this was something that didn't get explored.

I was disappointed in this issue because I think that there was a LOT of interesting stuff that Spike and Faith could talk about. Hell, I'd be happy with an entire issue of them just talking while they explore the demon lair. Last issue, Faith didn't think much of Spike. It would have been nice to see her opinion of him change in this issue in a way that wasn't so superficial. She told him that he didn't need to help her with the demons, and he helps anyway, proving to her that he's a real hero after all. Yeah it works, but it's kind of shallow and clichéd, no?

I think they could have really stretched this out into two issues, there is plenty of stuff with Faith and Spike that can be explored. I was hoping at the very least we might see a fight between Spike and Faith or Angel or Nadira. Because Maybe back in the mansion Alistair could do some ritual on Angel so that he can take turns speaking with Angel, Angelus and Giles. That would have been awesome. Hell, pad the story out with Nadira hunting down Nash and Pearl and you could have an entire arc. I can't stress how much I feel that there really was potential here that wasn't explored.

The whole bit with Harmony was just weird. What should have been a serious issue turned into a comedy. I disagree with those who are saying that Angel "pimped" Harmony out. He passed along a phone number. That said, there's no reason why Harmony had to be brought back to Faith's house. I think it is kinda tasteless that Spike would want to be having sex with Harmony after the way he treated her in BtVS season 4 and 5 and AtS season 5. But at the end of the day they are both adults. Harmony knows that Spike doesn't want a long term relationship with her, so while it is kinda tasteless, he's not leading her on and treating her like crap like he was throughout BtVS season 4.

And Harmony is not a "porn star." C'mon, folks seriously.

KingofCretins
27-03-13, 08:46 PM
King, I don't think they are going for Spike as "abusing" Harmony. I do think there's some validity to the concern that Gage makes no note of the fact that in the past, Spike was using Harmony's feelings for him to get her to sleep with him. But for me the thing that makes those pages less and less pleasant are (a) Spike going for raw sport-f*ing undermines the more three dimensional thing I see him as being after with Faith and (b) she's soulless and he's not and (c) unlike the culture I don't think sport-f*ing is a noble thing and I don't see how it fits with the idea of 'maturity' that was the theme of the issue. So I'm actually not sure what they want us to think by having Spike go in that direction.

I don't think it would merit mention because I don't think it provides any context for what we get here. I think Harmony is being a bit infantilized in all of this, in fact. When it comes to the Bloody's willy, Harmony has an affinity, not an addiction. I really don't see where she has even the slightest indication that she holds any notion Spike wants to be with her or that her willingness to sleep with him now relates back to some prior notion.

As for Faith, I don't think he was thinking relationship there, just... she might be up to get down. The guy wants a roll in the hay with a higher class of partner than Morgan. He wants to feel like he still has game after he feels rejected by Buffy despite the transparency with which he wasn't reaaaaally.

Now, I agree that it was a silly, too "too" throw-in, but more on the basis that they really don't have to get someone to be all keyed up over Spike in every single arc he is in. They are giving him this silly Captain Jack treatment.


I'd add that your reaction also made it harder to stomach -- I don't think you'd be happy about Xander having gotten a leg over Harmony to help him get over Buffy. Though maybe I'm wrong about that. You can fill me in on whether that adds to or subtracts from the way you view a character. But I can't imagine at this point triumphantly guffawing at Xander for only being able to get laid by Harmony, etc. etc. But you did that and it makes me feel more sour about the whole thing -- this issue, the comics in general, and the fandom.

Leaving aside that literally every relationship he has ever had has been accused of this, why do you suppose I would care? Is the social norm in which he lives not that two willing single adults can have sex for any reason they choose? We don't have here an analogous situation to Xander turning from getting turned down in "Prophecy Girl" to seducing Willow with false promises of a relationship. In fact, the closest parallel I can think of here is "Entropy", except with Spike's critics standing in for Xander and Buffy. He isn't cheatin, he isn't lying. He could only ever hypothetically he hurting any torch he has for Buffy, but, hey, that would require that Buffy ever learn something Spike or Angel do in her absence that might make them unattractive dating options... as if.

Morphia
27-03-13, 08:47 PM
While there's a lot I dislike about re-Spike/Harmony, her being soulless is not one of them. I actually like that Spike isn't too up himself to think having sex with someone soulless is beneath him.

But, since I don't share Angel's, Faith's, and apparently Gage's low opinion of Harmony, it's Angel and Faith's disgusted faces and comments about how shallow Spike is and how it's only not sleazy because it's Harmony that grate the most.

Stoney
27-03-13, 09:21 PM
ViR I disagree about Angel passing on Harmony's number because it's Harmony and she'll be sleazy. It was tacky and it did feel, to me, like he was giving Spike the number of the local sure thing, urrgh. But, aside from that, you made great points particularly about Faith and I totally agree that Spike would have been sympathetic to the fact that that would have been shitty to Buffy and certainly wouldn't have been begging her for it and yes, their S7 interaction was pretty much nothing.

King are you actually suggesting that Harmony is a higher class of partner than Morgan? It would have been nice if they had showed him hook up with someone who wasn't a soulless demon, I do think it matters.

BAF
27-03-13, 09:32 PM
I have my copy of Angel & Faith # 20,"Spike And Faith."

I'm going to keep this really short.I know that there are many who do not like this issue.I enjoyed it though.I thought it was fun and I really did enjoy the Faith and Spike dynamic.I thought we got some interesting insight into Spike's head post his miniseries.

The trying to hook up with Faith and the aunts was part of that and again,I really liked how the dynamic between Faith and Spike played.

Also enjoyed the moment where Angel tells Spike he's not over Buffy either.Thought that was some nice bonding moments in immediate panels leading up to it too even though Angel doesn't say anything until that moment.And played much better IMO than the end of TGIQ which I think was going for the same idea but a comedy route rather than drama here.

I did think the way they resolved Giles soul in Angel was a bit on the pat side.

As for the Angel hooking Spike up with Harmony ending.I think it was just meant to be played for comedy even though that isn't the way it's playing for many.That's not the first time that's happened in the verse.

So I enjoyed the issue and sort of see it as a breather before the final arc.

I am currious about one thing,how Spike gets back to SF for the end of Buffy?Is he in next issue of A & F or part of next issue and gets word of what's going on with Dawn,Illyria and Severin and than heads back or does his exit happen offscreen in between this issue and next with possible exposition about his taking leave?

Stoney
27-03-13, 10:48 PM
If Buffy does indeed try to call Faith in the next issue that might trigger Spike leaving. I expect him to be in the next issue of A&F and leave arriving in the following month in BtVS. Hopefully that will happen in the first two panels of the next issue and he will leave instantly.

TimeTravellingBunny
27-03-13, 10:54 PM
Wasn't there talk about a Q&A after 20 or was that Buffy issue 20? I have no idea what I would say to be honest so I doubt I'll participate.


EDIT:
OK I wasn't misremembering Q&A threads are open...

Christos (http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3370-Q-amp-A-with-Christos-Gage-for-ANGEL-amp-FAITH-20?p=111064#post111064)
Rebekah (http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3371-Q-amp-A-with-Rebekah-Isaacs-for-ANGEL-amp-FAITH-20?p=111066#post111066)


What do you know, I thought of something to ask. :xd
I've asked Gage a question, too, about Spike's comments about Buffy and Dowling in the previous issue, and about Buffy & men in this issue. And while I was writing it, I thought of a possible explanation for the latter. Maybe Gage is implying that Spike still believes that Buffy was in a relationship with the Immortal? That could explain why he thinks she likes "monsters" and that she fell for "the first brooding, tortured ponce that came along" (I don't know if the Immortal fits that description, but I can't think of anyone else that would). I've asked him if that's what he meant.

norwie
27-03-13, 10:55 PM
I've asked Gage a question, too, about Spike's comments about Buffy and Dowling in the previous issue, and about Buffy & men in this issue. And while I was writing it, I thought of a possible explanation for the latter. Maybe Gage is implying that Spike still believes that Buffy was in a relationship with the Immortal? That could explain why he thinks she likes "monsters" and that she fell for "the first brooding, tortured ponce that came along" (I don't know if the Immortal fits that description, but I can't think of anyone else that would). I've asked him if that's what he meant.

You're putting entirely too much thought into this. ;)

KingofCretins
27-03-13, 10:58 PM
Chiding Spike for sleeping with a soulless demon as though it were manifestly wrong goes a good distance toward making my point that Spike is being treated by the audience reaction her as Anya was by Xander in "Entropy". I have read many a treatise in forum format about how ill-conceived it was for Buffy (or anyone on hers or Anya's behalf, certainly) to be soullist, if you will, against Spike. Would hardly seem fair not to give Spike the same latitude.

TimeTravellingBunny
27-03-13, 11:01 PM
You're putting entirely too much thought into this. ;)Hey, I'm being nice and giving the guy the benefit of a doubt (or a chance to make his poor writing look better). Don't spoil it. ;)

norwie
27-03-13, 11:20 PM
Hey, I'm being nice and giving the guy the benefit of a doubt (or a chance to make his poor writing look better). Don't spoil it. ;)

What?! After "sexist = funny = true"?! ;)

cil_domney
28-03-13, 02:01 AM
I can't understand what this writer and Dark Horse were trying to accomplish with these two issues. CG in an interview talks about liking the Angel-Spike dynamics of Season 5, which is fine - but what does that add to the present story? It's like the writer thinks the characters from AtS 5 and those dynamics are more important than the story being told now. Those Season 5 dynamics worked in Season 5, here, IMO, they are completely out of place and they bring nothing of any value to the current story and the characters. Spike is trashed; IMO, but Angel and Faith also came across as shallow and silly in the last section.

We get that the writer was going for Spike and in "dumb downed persona" with a big helping of Angel, acting like a big brother of friend who comes to his rescue - but, and just my opinion of course, everything about it SUCKED and it sucked big time. In every instance that Spike has been with Harmony, other than that one time when he understands that he was wrong to use her for sex and how cruel he had been to her in the W&H bar scene, his relationship and treatment of Harmony has been brutal, cruel and filled with disdain for her. That the writer chose to use Harmony as his sex toy, for that is what she is in this issue, I find a complete set back for a character that has experienced and made such profound changes to his life.

I have a bad feeling about what comes next in his story because they Spike that I know from the series would have a terrible and extreme painful reaction to his London Shag Any Body I Can Get when he finds out about Dawn.

Who thinks that Faith and Angel are potentially being set-up as more than Best of Hero Buddies and that this may be that change that they arrive at with the ending of this season? Seems to me that while Angel is still on the Buffy Love Train, there's a real fine woman right in front of him that would make him a great life companion to love and cherish.

ubi4soft
28-03-13, 02:13 AM
What?! After "sexist = funny = true"?! ;)

Being sexist is less than Angel as a child molester. In issue #1 Angel bit a little girl and later he explained to Willow that vampire bite stimulates brain's pleasure center or something

cil_domney
28-03-13, 02:29 AM
Chiding Spike for sleeping with a soulless demon as though it were manifestly wrong goes a good distance toward making my point that Spike is being treated by the audience reaction her as Anya was by Xander in "Entropy". I have read many a treatise in forum format about how ill-conceived it was for Buffy (or anyone on hers or Anya's behalf, certainly) to be soullist, if you will, against Spike. Would hardly seem fair not to give Spike the same latitude.

Totally agree, Harmony's demon and soulless status is not an important element for me - nor is Harmony's consent to be part of this Spike needs to get laid and any body will do, here's Harmony and go at it.

See the thing that I remember about Spike and Harmony is that he was a total prick and has always been a total prick regarding Harmony - The only time that I can recall when he was not filled with disdain for her or treating her like she was there to be used by him for his sexual pleasure and needs is when he realized what a creep he had been to her in the W&H bar scene.
And I also remember Harmony, breaking down and asking why she let's him treat her so mean. And I remember also that Harmony, for all her I'm so great, has pretty low self-esteem and thinks she has to offer her body to Spike to get his protection.

Harmony's has reached a level of success now and yet she is still given the Blond Bimbo Ho treatment - so I maybe all wrong about Harmony and about what the writer intended. But in the name of women who have made it out of their personal life gutter and made something of themselves and reach a level of economic and professional success - to hell with Angel and Spike using her basically as a Call Girl to service his sexual needs.

And I know that there is not one bit of evidence that Harmony is not perfectly happy to fill this role of Sexual Object to service Spike but I still wish that Harmony had told Spike to "F&*# Off" -

KingofCretins
28-03-13, 02:44 AM
I'm rereading it here and I'm really not getting it. How is everyone casting Harmony as a victim of some kind here? Given her means and her hotness and her fan club, the only reason she's there having sex with Spike is because it pleases her to be there having sex with Spike. She wasn't kidnapped, there's no sign she's been given some sort of con like "oh baby I always loved you, I shouldn't have given up on us". I see no tangible sign that there's anything to this beyond "Spike wanted to get laid, Harmony wanted to lay him". All her autonomy and free will and even sexual empowerment take her is the slightest benefit of the doubt, because there's certainly nothing in the text speaking against them.

TimeTravellingBunny
28-03-13, 03:06 AM
Who thinks that Faith and Angel are potentially being set-up as more than Best of Hero Buddies and that this may be that change that they arrive at with the ending of this season? Seems to me that while Angel is still on the Buffy Love Train, there's a real fine woman right in front of him that would make him a great life companion to love and cherish.
Doesn't seem likely based on this issue. Angel said he wasn't over Buffy, and Faith told Spike she doesn't want to be a rebound girl, and she listed Spike's similarity with Angel as a reason she wouldn't hook up with him.

MikeB
28-03-13, 03:10 AM
Angel & Faith 9.20 bullet points and analysis



http://www.newsarama.com/comics/superior-spider-man-age-of-ultron.html


Nrama: Over on Angel & Faith at Dark Horse, things are nearing closer to the end game. With a finite run like this, has the story been fairly meticulously planned from the onset, or has there been any room to improvise a bit as the series ran? And how much did you enjoy getting to write Spike in recent issues? (Season 5 of Angel was a personal favorite in large part due to their interaction.)

Gage: I too loved the Angel/Spike interaction in Angel Season 5, and that was a big part of the appeal of bringing Spike into the book, but I also wanted to play Spike and Faith off against each other. In addition, I felt that it would be an opportunity to show a side of Spike we haven't seen in the main Buffy book, because being around Angel sort of brings out the competitive instinct in both of them.

As for the level of planning, when we had the original summit for Season 9, it was kind of like preparing for a season of a TV show... we planned out the "spine" of the story for the season. But within that framework, there was a pretty good amount of room to improvise and let inspiration strike. I think that sort of gives you the best of both worlds... you have a road map guiding you on where to go, but you still have the freedom to stop and check out interesting sights along the way, if that makes any sense. Maybe I’m forgetting something, but I don’t recall a single instance in which Gage says that Joss Whedon looks over and approves the actual scripts of A&F. The way he’s always talked about Joss’s involvement makes it seems as if it’s similar to Joss’s involvement in AtF (outside of the IDW Spike miniseries).

________

Artwork: Where did Faith’s breasts go? Was she wearing a training bra throughout this Issue?

Spike’s not drawn well.


* Spike: “Not sure you can call Angelus a ‘being’ really. More of a demon, who’s always there.”

So, Spike now is saying Angelus is simply a demon that’s always in Angel? So, without the curse, Spike considers Angel is what?


* Spike is still referring to Angel and Angelus as two different people, not two different personalities.

Spike’s always referred to uncursed Angel and cursed Angel as being the same person. To Darla, Angel, Drusilla, and Spike “Angel” and “Angelus” are simply two different “personalities” of Angel. So, Spike saying “Angelus is simply a demon that’s always in Angel” simply makes no sense.


* Alasdair: “If the Angelus persona becomes dominant, we’ll all be too busy dying.”

Alasdair’s saying that Faith and Spike combined couldn’t handle uncursed Angel. Does this make sense? No.


* Spike suggests taking Giles’ soul out so it could go to its “eternal reward”. Faith’s against that idea.


* Faith is inexplicably bitchy with Spike. She tells Spike (it’s not as if Alasdair was going to fight the Enders) that if he doesn’t risk his life and soul to try to save Angel, that he can go ‘screw himself’.


* They’re concerned about Angel’s potential danger (if the Angelus personality takes over) and yet not only does Faith not want Angel in leg irons, she feeds him blood.

* Not only this, the chains he’s shackled with are long and it seems he’d be able to reach the weapons cabinet and open it.


* Faith’s compassionate for Spike after an Ender tried to suck Spike’s soul out. She’s compassionate to the point of feeling bad that Spike even accompanied her on this mission and tells him she can kill the Enders herself.

So, what changed from the hour or whatever before?


* Faith to Spike: “You don’t have to play the badass with me. I get not wanting to go back to who you were.”

Faith obviously doesn’t want to revert to her former evil self.


* Spike to Faith: “I’ll take my chances. I’m not Angelus. I wasn’t such a bad sort without a soul. Some might even have preferred me that way.”

“I’m not Angelus.”: He’s clearly saying that unsouled Spike and souled Spike are the same person.


“I wasn’t such a bad sort without a soul.”: What period is he referring to. The only way I can make this make any sense is if Spike is saying that if his soul were removed, he wouldn’t be too bad. This made sense in IDW’s Spike’s miniseries and it makes sense here.


“Some might even have preferred me that way.”: In the IDW Spike miniseries (if it’s canon) Drusilla didn’t seem to have much problem with Spike being souled. She was vigorously making out with him. She enthusiastically wanted to marry him. And she’s the only one I can think of that he may think would prefer him soulless.


* Why would Spike think Faith was still dating Robin Wood?

As for Wood being “prejudiced” against vampires, Angel being Twilight would be a far better reason for Wood disapproving of Faith living with Angel than Angel simply being a vampire. And given Spike killed Wood’s mother, “[Wood’s] a bit prejudiced [against vampires]” seems an insensitive way to phrase that.


* Spike propositioning Faith makes no sense.

Spike wants to be with Buffy again, he knows she would disprove of his having sex with Faith, he intends to eventually go back to San Francisco to go be with Buffy again.


* Faith tells Spike that far from being a bad boy, “these days you’re more like Angel.” And of course she means “good guy”.

Faith clearly considers Angel’s better than Spike. Unless she’s under some kind of spell or whatever, this makes no sense.


* Would Faith only not have sex with Spike because she knows he’s still into Buffy?


* This isn’t “Dirty Girls” (7.18). Faith comparing Spike to Angel as if they are ‘the same’ should have had Spike retorting something like, “I didn’t sign up to work for Evil Inc. and I didn’t sign up to be Twilight and destroy the world along with all its life.” So, while Spike’s rant was funny, it didn’t make any sense.

Gage writes the Angel-Faith-Spike relationships as if there wouldn’t be vastly different dynamics between them after BtVS S8.


* Spike trying to have a three-way with Giles’ great aunts:

Spike would remember how Buffy in “Sleeper” (7.09) reacted when Spike gave her the impression that he was sleeping around.

Spike intends to soon go back to being with Buffy. Yet before he does, he’s going to have sex with Giles’ great aunts? While his propositioning them makes more sense than his having propositioned Faith, it still makes little sense.


* Sophie and Vin don’t have sex with Spike because they consider he’d get “attached” to them.

If Spike actually wanted to have sex with them, why would he sit down and sulk instead of informing them that he’d have zero emotional attachment to them given that he already has Drusilla and Buffy, and that when Hell-LA existed (if that is canon) he was having sex with dozens of immortal beauties and he didn’t have an emotional attachment to any of them.

Really, Spike could have simply grabbed them and said, “You’re not the immortal beauty I actually have feelings for. I simply want to I f)ck the two of you unconscious. I turned the Slayer’s legs into jelly; let’s see what I can do with the two of you.” Or something.

Gage writes Spike as someone who apparently has no ‘game’.


* Spike to himself: “Soon as [Buffy] realizes I’m capable of human emotion, might want something real, I may as well be a leper.”

Spike remembers BtVS S6 and BtVS S7. His rant to Angel makes no sense.

* It further makes no sense since Buffy seems to perhaps want to eventually live in the suburbs and have children. And after “Get it Done” (7.15) she makes no indication that she may prefer that Spike were soulless.


* Spike to himself, “I mean, it’s typical women, isn’t it? They go on and on about how they want a good man. A sensitive man who respects them. But the moment they’ve beaten you into one, they find you a dreadful bore and throw you over for the first brooding tortured ponce who comes along.”

Spike’s never had this happen to him so it makes no sense that he’d say this.


* If Spike considers he’s a mess without a significant other, he’d simply go be with Buffy (or perhaps Drusilla). Or he would have perhaps called up Morgan (or simply been with her).

What he wouldn’t do is decide to have meaningless sex with Harmony or any random someone.


* Spike to Angel: “I’d never admit this if you weren’t a drooling vegetable, but I’ve always admired the way you moved on from the Slayer. Found work… saw other women… built a life of your own.”

Spike knows Angel never got over Buffy. Did Spike somehow forget “In the Dark” (A 1.03), AtS s5, and BtVS S8?

Found work: Angel charged people he saved and then went to work for Evil Inc. Spike didn’t admire Angel’s doing either thing.

Saw women: So AtF didn’t happen?


* Angel texted Spike’s Harmony number so that Spike could use her as a ‘booty call’.


* Spike is too buddy buddy with Angel.


* Faith’s place has only two bathrooms?


* If Spike actually wants to move on from Buffy, why not call up Morgan (she’d have obviously given him contact info)? If Spike wanted meaningless sex, why not simply go to a bar and hook up with someone?

It seems Spike decides to have sex with Harmony simply because he knows what to expect and she has far more stamina than a human would.

Are we supposed to believe Spike seeing Faith and/or Faith comparing him to Angel made him decide to move on from Buffy? That makes about no sense.


* Faith’s reaction to Spike’s sleeping with Harmony is unrealistically muted. Faith should have been more critical of Spike.


* Spike is able to have sex with Harmony for almost 6 hours?


* Harmony created Harmony’s Rules. She’s responsible for probably at least thousands of lives being saved. Angel has no right to consider Harmony as someone somehow ‘beneath’ Angel.


* Harmony’s enthusiastically eager to have sex with Spike and Spike obviously called her for a ‘booty call’. She’s not being ‘used’ in any strict sense.

Local Maximum
28-03-13, 03:14 AM
Read it. I don't have many thoughts right now. Given that the issue highlighted how similar Angel and Spike are, the fact that Faith mentions Daniel Craig as a fantasy man seems a reminder of how similar Faith and Buffy are.

I can't quite figure out how I feel about the issue overall, but I think it played okay generally.

On the Harmony thing, yeah I think it plays badly --

1) Angel's line about how with Harmony, you don't have to think is a reminder that Harmony is useful for sex because she's stupid;

2) Angel's saying more than once that if it were anyone but Harmony, giving Spike a woman's number would be sleazy suggests that Angel disapproves of giving Spike a booty call number in principle, but Harmony for some undisclosed reason is an okay person to give Spike a booty call number to. There is no indication of why Harmony fits this category. I'm not sure what qualities it is that Angel thinks make giving Spike Harmony's number more okay than giving him any other women's numbers. But considering that Angel has pretty much no positive things to say about Harmony most of the time, I don't think it's meant as a compliment or even a non-insult to Harmony.

3) apparently Harmony and Spike are role-paying Spike-as-Big-Bad which sounds an awful lot like Spike/Buffybot sex, or generally the role-play within the sex they used to have when Spike was clearly not treating her very well. So it is hard for me to draw a thick line between the relationship they used to have and this sex which is supposed to be of a far different nature.

So I think the overall thrust (ahem) of these pages do indicate a contempt for Harmony felt by the characters which makes it play far differently than (say) Faith/Robin sex. If there is a reason why Angel felt it was less sleazy to give Spike Harmony's number than any other woman's number that is about some traits of Harmony's that are not held in contempt, that could change how point (2) reads.

I mean, I don't think Harmony is a "victim". She clearly is a consenting undead adult and all, but I don't get waves of respect coming off the page.

KingofCretins
28-03-13, 04:17 AM
Did I not say Spike's failed sexual advances would yield a challenge to the canonical status of the book? Did I not say?

Personally, I think that Spike's "some people might prefer (him)" without a soul to have been directed straight through the fourth wall, not a reference to actual characters.

I'm surprised this didn't come up yet, but this issue was also repeatedly very rough on the slashers, with Spike's vigorous protests that he and Angel never had sex, i.e. anal intercourse, through various euphemisms. But fear not, I think it only requires that audience reconcile that what time they were intimate was just something that falls within the golden rule (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi7gwX7rjOw) (pace Lonely Island). That or he just didn't think it would be a turn on for Faith?

ubi4soft
28-03-13, 05:32 AM
I'm surprised this didn't come up yet, but this issue was also repeatedly very rough on the slashers, with Spike's vigorous protests that he and Angel never had sex, i.e. anal intercourse, through various euphemisms. But fear not, I think it only requires that audience reconcile that what time they were intimate was just something that falls within the golden rule (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi7gwX7rjOw) (pace Lonely Island). That or he just didn't think it would be a turn on for Faith?

The "maybe one time" line was to please the fandom, at that time very much shipping Spangel, but it came right after The Girl In Question where soulless Angel and Spike were complaining to Darla that they weren't allowed the "concurrently" bit. So, I think, maybe she might after that for Angel's sake.

So them being intimate one time for me is both of them in bed with Darla.

Vampire in Rug
28-03-13, 08:53 AM
Being sexist is less than Angel as a child molester. In issue #1 Angel bit a little girl and later he explained to Willow that vampire bite stimulates brain's pleasure center or something

Are you even remotely serious? Pleasure doesn't necessarily mean "sexual pleasure." The idea that Angel was sexually pleasuring Willow when he bit her and stopped her from going dark is a fan assumption, there was nothing in the text that sexualized it. Vampire bites being pleasurable is a common trope in fiction, and yeah, it's often portrayed as sexual pleasure but that is NOT always the case.

I'm gonna guess that the pleasure of the bite and the manner that it is pleasurable largely depends on the vampire's intent and the context of the situation. I very much doubt that Robin Wood was getting turned on when Spike bit him. If I recall correctly, Harth Fray described getting bitten by Icarus to be extremely painful, there was no implication that it was pleasurable at all. On the other hand, sometimes vampire bites are sexualized such as when Angel or Dracula fed from Buffy or when the prostitute vampires fed from Riley. This suggests to me that the vampire has some level of control over how pleasurable their bite is. And even then, context matters. I don't think Riley would have been aroused if a male vampire fed from him, for instance.

To compare it to a human, real life situation, a lover might find it pleasurable of you caress his/her face with your fingertips. A random dude in a bar would not find it pleasurable if I "caressed" his face repeatedly with my knuckles. If you can use your hands for different purposes (some pleasurable, others painful/offensive), why can't a vampire use their fangs for different purposes in different contexts?

Again, nothing suggests that Angel was being sexual with Willow when he bit her. The "pleasure" to calm her down might have been the equivalent of a relaxing beer or a joint (if you're into that). Both of those can be pleasurable and neither is sexual.

There is certainly NOTHING to suggest that Angel was "pleasuring" (sexually or otherwise) the child that he bit in issue #1 when she was possessed by that demon. He was trying to scare the demon into leaving the host, he wasn't trying to give pleasure. So unless you're going to argue that Spike was pleasuring Wood, I don't see why you need to read something as disgusting as child molestation into the text of #1. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that sometimes vampire bites are pleasurable and other times they are *not.* Worth noting also, that Angel didn't draw any blood out of the child. He bit down to scare the demon, but he didn't actually drink, so it was not a "normal" vampire bite. I really do think you have to be *actively looking* for reasons to be offended if you read implied child molestation into issue #1.

Going back to this issue, I really didn't like the way that Spike was drawn. I think that those lines Issacs does on Spike's face to suggest his high cheekbones do not work, they make his face look weirdly thin and pushed out. Does anyone else get that? I think that even Jeanty's Spike is better than Issac's Spike. Which is disapointing because I really like most of Issac's other work.



Maybe I’m forgetting something, but I don’t recall a single instance in which Gage says that Joss Whedon looks over and approves the actual scripts of A&F. The way he’s always talked about Joss’s involvement makes it seems as if it’s similar to Joss’s involvement in AtF (outside of the IDW Spike miniseries).

Dude, stop trying to imply that A&F isn't canon just because you don't like it. Has it been confirmed that Joss looks over each and every script in season 9 or the Spike and Willow miniseries? Do you accept that stuff as canon?

And with that last sentence are you seriously trying to imply that the IDW Spike series is *more* canon than AtF?



Spike’s not drawn well.

Agreed.



* Spike: “Not sure you can call Angelus a ‘being’ really. More of a demon, who’s always there.”

So, Spike now is saying Angelus is simply a demon that’s always in Angel? So, without the curse, Spike considers Angel is what?

Without the curse/soul, Angel is Angelus because the demon is in full control. I don't see what is so confusing about this. The demon is what gives him an evil instinct and bloodlust, Liam's leftover human persona gives him a personality and human-level intelligence and when the soul is there it gives him a conscience and several "human" emotions such as the ability to feel love. When an extra soul is forced in there it makes him crazy. I don't see what is so hard to understand here.



* Alasdair: “If the Angelus persona becomes dominant, we’ll all be too busy dying.”Alasdair’s saying that Faith and Spike combined couldn’t handle uncursed Angel. Does this make sense? No.

Again, Alistair is not being literal. He does not literally think that Angelus could beat Faith, Spike and himself all at once, especially when Angel's soul and Giles's soul are still in play. He's merely exaggerating and saying that Angelus is dangerous, which he is. He's obviously not being literal here and suggesting that Angelus could literally kill all three of them in moments. He's merely trying to stress the importance that they sort this shit out.


* Spike suggests taking Giles’ soul out so it could go to its “eternal reward”. Faith’s against that idea.

In theory this is a good idea. It's only a bad idea because the text established that there is no way to be certain that you are extracting Giles' soul and not Angel's.



* They’re concerned about Angel’s potential danger (if the Angelus personality takes over) and yet not only does Faith not want Angel in leg irons, she feeds him blood.

* Not only this, the chains he’s shackled with are long and it seems he’d be able to reach the weapons cabinet and open it.

Not only this, but the shackles were apparently wide enough for Angel to Houdini his way out of. And after the soul extraction, everyone is cool with Angel taking off the chains and walking around upstairs like it's nothing. What if something went wrong? What if Angel's soul was somehow extracted instead of Giles? We know that Angelus can pull off a pretty convincing Angel when he wants to. The way they restrained Angel was pretty careless. Feeding him blood, the weapons cabinet within reach (I didn't notice that, I assume you're correct), no leg irons, hand shackles wide enough to squeeze through and letting him walk around casually after a soul has been extracted from him. They were very careless.



So, what changed from the hour or whatever before?

Faith gave Spike the option to not accompany her when she went off to fight the Ender demons. Spike could have backed out but he chose to go anyway, putting himself at great risk. He mentioned how hard he fought for his soul, and he was putting that at risk by fighting the Enders. This made Faith have more respect for Spike.




* Why would Spike think Faith was still dating Robin Wood?

Well they were dating when Spike last saw them in BtVS seaon 7. I doubt that Spike did much socializing with Faith in the brief time they were in the same room in BtVS season 8, so this would be the first time Spike heard about them breaking up.


As for Wood being “prejudiced” against vampires, Angel being Twilight would be a far better reason for Wood disapproving of Faith living with Angel than Angel simply being a vampire. And given Spike killed Wood’s mother, “[Wood’s] a bit prejudiced [against vampires]” seems an insensitive way to phrase that.

Yes, Angel being Twilight would be a more legit reason for Wood to have a problem with Faith choosing to live with Angel, rather than Angel simply being a vampire. And the line about Wood being "prejudiced" implies that Wood's problem with Spike and hypothetically with Angel is just general dislike of vampires rather than the fact that Angel was genocidal and Spike specifically killed Wood's mother. It implies that Spike still doesn't understand the legitimacy of Wood's grievance and you're right, it is pretty insensitive to casually mention Wood like that. I really wish that line wasn't included.




* Would Faith only not have sex with Spike because she knows he’s still into Buffy?

I think she's just not interested in Spike. Which I think is awesome. Faith was awesome in general in this issue.




Spike would remember how Buffy in “Sleeper” (7.09) reacted when Spike gave her the impression that he was sleeping around.

That is your personal fanon. If you look back to the thread you made, you'd see that not everyone agrees with you.



If Spike actually wanted to have sex with them, why would he sit down and sulk instead of informing them that he’d have zero emotional attachment to them given that he already has Drusilla and Buffy, and that when Hell-LA existed (if that is canon) he was having sex with dozens of immortal beauties and he didn’t have an emotional attachment to any of them.

Really, Spike could have simply grabbed them and said, “You’re not the immortal beauty I actually have feelings for. I simply want to I f)ck the two of you unconscious. I turned the Slayer’s legs into jelly; let’s see what I can do with the two of you.” Or something.

LOL. Sorry, but they just weren't into him.


Gage writes Spike as someone who apparently has no ‘game’.

No matter how much game a guy has, everyone gets turned down from time to time. While I do think that decades of experience has given Spike confidence when it comes to picking up girls, I don't think that there is a guy on the planet who has a 100% success ratio. I'm sure even movie stars sometimes get turned down.



* If Spike considers he’s a mess without a significant other, he’d simply go be with Buffy (or perhaps Drusilla). Or he would have perhaps called up Morgan (or simply been with her).

It your personal fanon that Spike could jut go be with Buffy because he wants it. What happened in the actual canon was that Spike opened up his heart to her, and she didn't feel the same way because right now she wants "normal". There is very little to suggest that Spike would want to pursue Drusilla romantically again, I'd like to think that Spike has grown past Drusilla. Not to mention that Spike would probably have no way of contacting her. And as for Morgan, it's pretty clear that Spike was not into the idea of a relationship with her, and again, I don't see how he could contact her.


What he wouldn’t do is decide to have meaningless sex with Harmony or any random someone.

Meh. Nothing like the next one to help you get over the last one.



Spike knows Angel never got over Buffy. Did Spike somehow forget “In the Dark” (A 1.03), AtS s5, and BtVS S8?

Angel still has Buffy in his heart, but Angel did build a life for himself outside of Buffy. He held a job, saw other women etc.

Where I disagree with this issue of A&F is the implication that Spike didn't build a life for himself outside of Buffy. Spike chose not to go back for her in AtS season 5, instead he did his own thing in LA which was great character development for him. Then there was AtF and the IDW ongoing, then there was the Spike series where Spike did his own mission in Vegas and became king of the bugs, he went dimension hopping for an unspecified amount of time and only showed back up in Buffy's life to help with the Twilight situation and then only stayed because he knew that there was a threat to her in San Fran. He had his own adventures on Easter Island and now in London. Spike has built his own life and proven that he doesn't need to be "all about Buffy".


Found work: Angel charged people he saved and then went to work for Evil Inc. Spike didn’t admire Angel’s doing either thing.

Spike didn't admire Angel being at W&H, but he still hung around with Angel and W&H for pretty much the entire time which is a tad hypocritical. As for Angel charging people when he worked at AI, that was a legit business and a legit way for Angel to help people. It's YOU that has a problem with Angel charging people, Spike never expressed that he had a problem with that. In fact, in the IDW ongoing, Spike was part of the AI team for a while.


Saw women: So AtF didn’t happen?

I agree with you that Spike probably shagged each and every one of the Spikettes while he was living at Playboy Mansion. But the only one that is actually confirmed in the text was Spider. And I don't think that Spike was talking strictly about sex, when he says "saw women", he was talking about pursuing a normal relationship outside of Buffy. Again, the only "relationship" Spike had in AtF was with Spider and that was anything but normal.

Angel on the other hand, post-Buffy, went on dates with Rebecca in AtS season 1, was majorly crushed on by Fred, had quasi-relationships with Darla and Cordelia, sexual tension with Kate, dated Nina for a while and if we accept the IDW stuff, he had a three-way with Kate and Dez. Post-Buffy, Spike has been on a single date with Tarantula for the purposes of making Buffy jealous, chatted to and sired girls at the Bronze, been to a strip club, possibly crushed on Fred, had sex with Harmony, got hit on by Morgan and the only actual "relationship" he's had was with Spider. If we accept the IDW stuff, Beck has crushed on Spike, Tok has flirted with him and Spike had a shag with a movie star vampire. Post-Buffy, Angel has had more actual, normal "relationships" than Spike. That's not a bash against Spike, that's just how it is. I can see Spike somewhat admiring Angel's ability to move on and try to date other girls. Spike is insecure and probably thinks that he's having more difficulty than Angel when it comes to "moving on" from Buffy.



* Faith’s place has only two bathrooms?


Only?


* If Spike actually wants to move on from Buffy, why not call up Morgan (she’d have obviously given him contact info)?

Nothing on the page suggested that Morgan gave Spike a way of contacting her, or that Spike would have asked for contact info.




* Harmony created Harmony’s Rules. She’s responsible for probably at least thousands of lives being saved. Angel has no right to consider Harmony as someone somehow ‘beneath’ Angel.

Harmony did that for entirely selfish reasons, let's not pretend that Harmony is saving human lives out of the goodness of her heart. The public infatuation with vampires possibly contributed to the spread of zompires early on and not every vampire is following the rules. Harmony has even been known to break her own rules.

Stoney
28-03-13, 10:37 AM
You're right ViR the art on Spike was pretty bad. The cheekbones was one of the worst aspects and he was way too beefed up at the end. But I think Isaacs, who is otherwise brilliant, really struggles with bloke's physiques, Angel always looks silly when she tries to do him shirtless. But facially Spike was terribly badly done.

ubi4soft
28-03-13, 12:25 PM
ViR - are you even remotely serious?

Unfortunately, I am. The pleasure bit was newly introduced in canon by Gage, fan aasumption aside, you were the first person to point out that maybe it doesn't mean sexual pleasure.

Let's say it means drugs or something else, still it looks bad because Angel bit that little girl first. I don't know the correct term, grown man doing bad things to little girl

-------

I want to apologize, it was not my intent to bait anyone

vampmogs
28-03-13, 12:41 PM
Ubi4soft, do you really think Gage intended for Angel to be "pleasuring" the little girl in #1? I thought it was fairly obvious he was biting her so that the demon possessing her would get scared and let her go. In the Buffyverse the effects of a vampire bite have been wildly inconsistent. Sometimes it's portrayed erotically, other times it just causes the victim great pain, and other times it looks brutal and savage. Gage wasn't the first person in the Buffyverse to portray the vampire bite as pleasurable. That was the idea behind Angel biting Buffy in Graduation Day (SMG is on record as saying she can't believe it went right over the censor's heads) and then when Dracula "embraced Angel's bite" and fed from Buffy in her bedroom during Buffy VS Dracula. That doesn't mean every vampire bite after those episodes was also intended to be erotic. There's nothing remotely sexual about Angel feasting on the little girl in #1 and he did it to try and save her. It was fairly risky and Angel recongises that but whilst it's meant to show that Angel is walking a very fine line ("time was I would have agonised over this") it's not saying he is a child molester :s

KingofCretins
28-03-13, 01:51 PM
Well, I guess the entire Fanged Four are up to no good, then, since I'm pretty sure there's pretty clear records of any and all of them nomming on babies and children. So, if you're married to trying to stretch the bit with Willow that far, you're stuck with it for all vampire characters of significance, including in the televised seasons. Sure you want to ride that train?

sybil
28-03-13, 06:37 PM
I know it’s totally stupid, but I have zero understanding why Harmony plays out so large in the life of Angel, except some weird hope she is going to “grow herself a soul?”

I think that Spike has a pretty good idea of the “whiny” in love with love that Harmony had for him is no different than the same “over the top” love he tried to idealize in how he felt with Dru, as if the muse to the poetic temperament, but not really the paradox “real love” is. (Why he rejoices/suffers so with Buffy).

I think that Spike * now * really knows the difference in the direct experience in his love for Buffy, not to mention, the feeling of love returned (because Buffy also has a soul); and I think that direct experience of real love from Buffy (Chosen) means he also experiences real pain in separation from love (and the love object) as “soul deep.”

Angel “built a family” even if he “destroyed” it with their own loyalty to him. He is a “natural” leader because his strength of “big picture” is also his great “weakness.” Yes, he seeks purpose as ‘life blood,’ as participation in his own life is all he has to make “amends.” Brooding may be easier on real estate, but the inaction does nothing to make the world better, either. Those things done for the self, perish with the self. Those things done for the other last into the world.

I have to admit, I don’t see Spike really “making a life” separate from Buffy, but in reaction to his need/his desire for her to love him as he loves her, so he stays close (and true) for her to not be so blind to his committed truth. Or, he seems to feel the great “despair of hope” in his having showed what he has offered and given to have “more” returned from her, than some frustrating “dark place”/half life” versions of “love/desire.” He tends, to me, to “never leave,” as he really goes off to beat back some current enemy, gets ensnared in relationships that “aren’t Buffy, so they don’t matter;” or he is actually “making a horrible situation” survivable, but he always has ‘Buffy on the bonce.’ His conscious life does not always mean what “it looks like.” He suffers, IMO.

Spike does like “sensual experience” but I do think, when it comes to love, all he feels is pain, because he craves what I don’t think he has ever had: Being made love to and making love that is truly ‘seen.’ (NO, he did not make love to Buffy in season seven, as that is so much of his frustration with loving Buffy, IMO, and his whole deal with Angel, who actually has made love and had it returned. Not to mention to the woman who also happens to be Spike’s “love object” — is what *centrally *hurts Spike.

Spike, for all the goofing on his sexual studliness, is still “a virgin!” It is Buffy who decides “how” Spike is needed; and he feels her actions are insufficient to what he has to offer (and should demand/deserve from someone who would be just as *fully committed * to him. That is why the writers keep putting him with “demons” because demons can’t experience *directly. * Spike knows that now and he knows the difference that also has been denied him.

In summary, I do think that Spike’s sexual encounters tend to be with demons to make the importance of the relationship really about “everything else” other than the sex being had, unless it is meant to be just “funny” and “embarrassing.” I just get tired of it, as Anya was nothing but this “joke,” despite her truly despicable and unrepentant “reactions” that arose from her own abuse. This simply means, to mean, yea, yea, boring: “ya can’t get vengeance with those you already killed” (or forgiveness), but to me means Anya never gained her own power as a woman, no matter if she could level the earth. Same with Harmony. She was a Cordette and all her ‘trying’ is the worst in sentimentality.

I wonder how often the fandom counts a (soulless or ensouled) female in this universe who hands over “phone numbers” to some “sistah” to go “fill up the hag bag” to get her “mind right?” Or is that only a “guy thing?” yuck. This idea seems to be some new version of “equality” in some minds, when “female comfort” would actually mean the world would be comfortable to my mind.

I guess that is why “ensouled males” solving their “love problems” for the “one you are with” and the females are ‘soulless’ is patently set up as “okay,” but “unequal,” even if ‘diversion’ was satisfactory between partners. The ensouled “know the difference” in *why * we get “naked “ with each other. The connection isn’t merely insert A into B. The concern each “gets something” for the encounter counts. Harmony is incapable of direct experience of love, no matter how she craves it, she has only a selfish response to it. That is why they keep putting Spike and Harmony together to show “melodramatic” love, versus pure lust, versus care for the partner and “how much” is actually being given. I also think Spike is to show “making love” is to arouse the body to awaken the deep need for expressing love in connection of the “self as other,” not just some grand orgasm.

I do understand the nature of the “body” as comfort and I do see Harmony and Spike enjoying “masturbation with another body” as a pleasant distraction and not a commitment of anything. Shaking a stranger’s hand is supposed to make them feel “good/accepted/safe” but not a personal “lover for life.”

For those who consider “ intimacy” between Spike and Angel, as sexual only, I would suggest that the end of “Damages” was one of the most intimate, naked moments these two ever had. Jeebers.

And, yes, I think the multiple takes on souls and slivers of souls and all the rest of the “world building” works for myths, but sure looks stupid “in print” especially with the nature of “escaping one’s shackles” actually to be more seen as “needs met” for physical and spiritual freedom e..g. the hope of despair (Angel's need to restore Giles and "die,") is inverted for the despair of hope in Spike’s case.
HUGS!
sybil

vampmogs
29-03-13, 04:09 AM
A lot of mixed feelings about this issue. I agree with Maggie that up until the Harmony pages it was actually rather ok. It wasn't amazing but it had some things I really liked about it. Unfortunately, those last 3 pages seem to have eclipsed the entire issue which these things tend to do. I'll get to that in a moment.

I liked that Spike showed some genuine concern/feeling for Giles. His reaction to zombie!Giles left me rather cold so it was nice to see that despite their differences, there is at least some respect there. I'd almost see it as disrespectful to Buffy had Spike not shown some consideration seeing as how he meant to so much to her.

I'm not entirley convinced by Spike's voice. In some scenes I think Gage did a good job but in others it feels a bit off. It's hard to put my finger on it but I have to say that I think Chambliss generally has a better handle on Spike's speech patterns.

Faith was awesome throughout this issue. A lot of great moments for her; declaring that she's nobody's rebound girl, showing compassion when she realised just what Spike was risking, pointing out the similarities in why both Angel and Spike left Buffy, being pissy at Angel for inviting somebody into her house, her frankness when it comes to wanting to get laid, and most of all her heartbreaking scene when she admits how much she needs Giles. I don't agree with what Faith is doing but at the very least I like that she's going along with the resurrection now because it's what she wants and not because Angel's leading her down a dark path.

The Enders were great. Issacs has a real knack for demon designs.

Final word on the Angel/Angelus dichtomoty -- "The semantics don't matter." So this issue pretty much did a backflip on everything that was said last issue. Last month I couldn't muster much of an opinion one way or another on the whole Angel/Angelus debate because I said that it wouldn't be long before they're back being treat as the same person. However, even I wasn't expecting them to retcon themselves that quickly :lol:

Spike's Nice Guy speech about Buffy was pretty unflattering. It's hard to tell how much of this was poor writing by Gage or intentional but Spike's talking a load of nonsense when he says Buffy stopped having time for him once he got his soul. Spike; everybody in S7 disagrees with you.

When it comes to the last 3 pages I feel sorry for Harmony. She's often played like a joke but we know that on some level she is legitimately hurt by Spike's feelings for Buffy;

HARMONY
Oh...my...God! You and the slayer actually... I mean, I know you had that twisted obsession with her, but...yecch. That's just... yecch

HARMONY
Using me. Making me think... feel...like yours. You! You don't want me! You want your slayer whore!

So there's something really quite ugly by having Angel and Spike use her to help Spike get over Buffy. Does she know this is why they reached out to her? Would she feel any less upset to know that Spike's not bedding her this time because he's fantasising about Buffy, or passing the time until he can be with Buffy, but because he wants to get over her? It's still All About Buffy and that's just really insensitive. The great thing about casual sex is that it's supposed to be, well, casual. It pretty much comes with a promise that there's no strings attatched and nobody's feelings will get hurt and I just don't think you can say that here given the Spike/Harmony baggage and the context in which this is occuring. So on that level I totally understand why people would rather Spike have shacked up with some random girl at a bar or the girl he was making out with at Buffy's house warming party (and how does that fit in again?).

On an entirley different level, and this may even be seen as contradictory to the point I just made, Harmony feels "beneath" Spike at this point in time. That sounds rather horrible but their relationship was always portrayed as a big joke and occured at a time when Spike didn't have a lot of dignity. I get fans being upset that after everything that has happened (being with Buffy " Effulgence" Summers, winning back his soul, becoming a Champion, saving the world etc) the character just seemingly can't ever shake off his history with Harmony. It's a lowpoint in his journey which was fun at the time but shouldn't we be past it now? Hearing their role playing come from the bedroom ("I hope the big bad doesn't come in here and ravage me!") just felt like a real regression for the character. And it's still being portrayed like a big joke now as evidenced by Angel and Faith's squicky reaction to the whole thing.

So a pretty mixed bag of emotions and I realise they could almost be seen as hypocriticial. I guess my solution would be to simply leave Harmony alone? It's why Buffy had to breakup with souless!Spike in S6 -- "I'm using you and it's killing me. I'm sorry, William". Do what's best for both of you and leave her be. If she's pretty much nothing but a big joke to you, if she's not capable of earning your respect, then stay away from her because it's not fair on her and it doesn't look good on you.

And I really have trouble believing that Angel would act this way? When it was revealed that Angel had heard everything Spike had said that was actually a nice moment and it was really ruined by Angel's "act of kindess" when he gave Spike the phone number. It just feels very OOC to me that this would be Angel's "solution" to help Spike? They acted more like fraternity bro's than two centuries old vampires.

BAF
29-03-13, 04:56 AM
The full Christos Gage Slayalive Q/A for Angel & Faith # 20 is up.

http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3370-*COMPLETE*-Q-amp-A-with-Christos-Gage-for-ANGEL-amp-FAITH-20

Local Maximum
29-03-13, 05:56 AM
Y'know, I am usually pretty skeptical of Gage and have not enjoyed A&F, but I found most of this interview insightful and refreshing. I feel reading him like he has a good read on a lot of the characteristics that I have had a hard time seeing within the book itself -- so it's interesting; it may be that he isn't communicating these thoughts to the page very well, or maybe I am missing the nuances. Not that I agree with all his answers, but I was generally impressed.

Tennyoelf
29-03-13, 06:01 AM
Y'know, I am usually pretty skeptical of Gage and have not enjoyed A&F, but I found most of this interview insightful and refreshing. I feel reading him like he has a good read on a lot of the characteristics that I have had a hard time seeing within the book itself -- so it's interesting; it may be that he isn't communicating these thoughts to the page very well, or maybe I am missing the nuances. Not that I agree with all his answers, but I was generally impressed.

Yeah, I felt the same way too. It feels like he gets it to a degree but his ideas just don't translate very well at all on the page.

I also, didn't agree with him on a few things, but it was refreshing to hear his opinion on his own work. I'm just sorry it didn't reflect on the pages.

Still not happy with Nice Guy TM Spike and the Harmony sex though. >.>;

Edit: Also, I noticed he doesn't really take into consideration season 7 when Spike and Buffy were emotionally close. Which may be why Spike is so off. I think he might have forgotten about that. Maybe he should have watched Touched/End of Days again?

Stoney
29-03-13, 06:08 AM
So Harmony knew the score (the idea that her and Spike have any kind of friendship though I think is laughable as he doesn't like her and is pretty disdainful), we shouldn't take seriously all the things that Spike said that undermine/contradict his previous development and this is just the way he falls into behaving around Angel.

I think Gage really put in the time with these questions which is great. I don't like that they pulled down Spike so much into this laddish, posturing etc, it was too much imo. I don't like the Harmony thing because I don't think he respects her. I still think Angel handing over a number for a hook up after listening to how Spike is feeling for 2 minutes is urksome, particularly when he then refers to him as shallow when he opted to not cerebrally engage Spike in what was the matter with him (not that I'm saying he would have been receptive). I still don't think Spike should have been making moves on Faith and I don't think they had a history that would have prompted it over the fact he would know this could potentially hurt Buffy and it was unnecessary/desperate, plenty of options out there etc. Basically, I still don't like the issue but Gage saying that Spike's situation effectively makes the contradictory/significant things he was saying a rant/vent and meaningless in any serious/real sense and his behaviour is attributable to his environment as Spike wouldn't behave like this in any other title at least makes me feel that we won't see any of this heading forward. I do think he took it too far and whilst I might not like it the responses were the best I could have expected for showing that it wasn't a straight reflection of how Gage sees the character full stop and that was good to hear.


EDIT: I agree Max he does seem to have a good take on the characters in a way that doesn't come across on the page.

Maggie
29-03-13, 06:35 AM
That's a truly awesome interview. His explanation for the stuff about Spike that folks didn't like tracked with what I was saying, so yay for that. I'm still not sold on S/H -- it's great to hear that he thinks Harmony is over Spike (which I had been assuming), but that probably should have landed on the page.

Just to spike (pun not really intended) a football on a few points:

I totally agree that Spike has a better track record with a soul than Angel. He has a better track record WITHOUT a soul than Angel, too. And yet, somehow Angel still seems to just get this role of “the great cosmic love of Buffy’s life” anyway. If I was Spike, that would piss me off…

One of Angel’s biggest failings – possibly the biggest – is that he so badly wants to believe he can be a big, world-saving hero and “fix everything” that he does really stupid and often harmful things in the pursuit of that. Angel was approached by Whistler and told that the only way to keep Buffy from dying was to become Twilight and do these things. Angel believed him, partly because Whistler is the one who pulled him out of the gutter and gave him a purpose (and Buffy), because Whistler’s been right before, and also because what Whistler was saying appealed to this flawed part of Angel’s personality. He should have asked more questions; he should have explored other options; there are a lot of things he should have done but didn’t.

much in the same way he believed in Angel Season 5 that he could ultimately do some good running an evil law firm, when really he primarily managed to get several of his best friends killed.

To my mind, the fact that he would push a relationship between Buffy and a man he believes is good for her even though it hurts him speaks very well of Spike. But he’s not a saint, it still hurts.

This might sound odd but what I love most about Spike is that he’s such a romantic. He doesn’t always act like it, but I think at heart he’s still pre-fanged William…with a lot of years and defense mechanisms added on. I loved the cover Phil Noto did for BTVS where Spike and Buffy are having a quiet night of domestic bliss at home…I think that’s what he’d love more than anything. Along with that sort of romanticism and vulnerability, of course, can come a great deal of hurt, and subsequent acting out, which I think we saw in A&F #20.

Sorry for the vampire one-upsmanship. But I just wanted to highlight the quotes that made me feel happy.

ETA: I'd have to go back and re-read A&F (all the way through), but I wonder how much of it seeming like it "not landing on the page" is due to fans assuming the writing isn't good enough to trust for subtlety and therefore taking things characters were saying as gospel truth. In particular, what would Gage say to a question about Faith's rah-rah defense of Angel? Based on this interview, I bet he'd come up with an answer based on their history and the limitations that places on how much of his darkness she can see/acknowledge.

Also, this is an awesome insight about why Spike tracked more good into his vampire persona:

So I don’t think you can say Angelus and Angel are completely separate beings, but they’re not the same being…Angelus is Angel’s dark side without the good parts. Spike’s soulless side seemed to have more of William’s good parts, and it’s interesting to speculate on why that is…maybe William’s bad parts were more tied in with his good parts?

(Also love the flat out statement that you can't pretend that Angelus is some whole other person. Waves at Bonnaleah).

Tennyoelf
29-03-13, 06:45 AM
Well, I'm peace-ing out of this. The interview doesn't really change my stance. While Gage may seem to have decent character knowledge, he misses the mark, went too far, and what he was trying to do doesn't reach the page, which is the most, very most, important part.

Probably won't stick my head back here until Spike returns to Buffy books and even that might just be to say my final good byes. (Will check in a few hours for PMs though).

vampmogs
29-03-13, 07:14 AM
I feel reading him like he has a good read on a lot of the characteristics that I have had a hard time seeing within the book itself -- so it's interesting; it may be that he isn't communicating these thoughts to the page very well, or maybe I am missing the nuances. Not that I agree with all his answers, but I was generally impressed.

I feel it's a bit of both. Not talking about you in particular but I do think that fandom in general has been very hard on Gage. A lot of fans were pretty sceptical of A&F before it even began and a lot were expecting the worst. In that respect I think it has become a bit of a self-fufilling prophecy and that there was a mindset that this book would be bad before it was given much of a chance. I do think a lot of the nuances have been missed and that there's a certain degree of cynacism, I guess, that is overshadowing what is actually on the page. As fans we also tend to obsess (I know I sure do) over what the writer really feels and I think we waste a lot of the time trying to discern if what a character says is the Voice of the Author or simply that character's opinion. I do wonder if this is something fandom used to obsess about back when the show was on the air of if it's unqiue to the comics and we're all looking for writers to validate our opinions.

BUT Gage's writing certainly isn't flawless. I'm happy to hear his thoughts on Spike/Harmony but I don't think that came across on the page at all, which he pretty much admits to. He also conceded that he wasn't clear enough about why Angel and Faith reacted the way they did and has owned up to that. And despite understanding where he was coming from with Spike and his persona in this issue I tend to agree with Stoney that it was still too laddish/juvenile for my tastes. So it's a shame that a lot of what he says in this Q/A didn't translate well to page and a credit to him for at least taking responsibility for that.

There's plenty of other issues with his writing as well. I tend to think there's a pattern where he starts an arc off really strong but then stumbles in the end. There's a tendency for his writing to be a bit repetative (though this is far less prevelant now than it was in the beginning) and also too on-the-nose. His characterisation of Dark!Willow was blatantly OOC, Connor was a real missed opportunity, and there have been occasions where a character does a complete 180 in a matter of seconds which feels unearned. On the otherhand, I appreciate how much attention he pays to continuity, he has a real knack for creating interesting OCs, his stories always have a clear focus, I think he's generally got both Angel and Faith's voices down well, he's done a great job setting up conflict within the Angel/Faith relationship, and contrary to popular opinion I think his feelings about Angel and Twilight ("one of Angel’s biggest failings – possibly the biggest – is that he so badly wants to believe he can be a big, world-saving hero and “fix everything” that he does really stupid and often harmful things in the pursuit of that") is clear to see on the page. So it's a mixed bag.

Morphia
29-03-13, 08:04 AM
That was a really good Q&A. It's a pity that we needed such a lot of exposition to explain what was happening in the book, though.

Morphia
29-03-13, 08:59 AM
To elaborate, I'm glad Christos Gage thinks Harmony isn't 'hung up' on Spike any more and they've come to something like a friendship, but given that the last time he mentioned her he called her a moron (and not, to me, in what looked like a fond way), that was something I needed to see on screen.

Stoney
29-03-13, 09:23 AM
As fans we also tend to obsess (I know I sure do) over what the writer really feels and I think we waste a lot of the time trying to discern if what a character says is the Voice of the Author or simply that character's opinion. I do wonder if this is something fandom used to obsess about back when the show was on the air of if it's unqiue to the comics and we're all looking for writers to validate our opinions.

I think it is something that is lost through tone/inflection. If I imagine JM saying the stuff about his soul/being a monster I can give it tone that makes it clear he doesn't mean what he is saying and is drunken/sulky/morose without changing the scripting. Equally I can give him one that sounds annoyed/glum/regretful that does pull into question that part of him genuinely means it. Body language etc feeds into reading a scene and mostly comic art is too basic in the main to often help us here. The live actor can have a brief flit of expression that captures it all, a slight hand gesture can convey resignation etc. Generally unless they go for close facials in the comics, confidently reading deep/exact emotion is difficult to almost impossible. Spike is drawn really badly here and in some of the more important scenes that is an issue. If you look back to the mini and Paul Lee's art in the panels where Spike has his moment of realisation about putting expectations onto someone, the emotion that is conveyed across the two sequenced panels is stunning. But it is all just facial and has a sequence devoted to the moment. There wasn't any of that here. In the comics our only cues are the text and the art and it is hard to judge if the characters mean what they say about themselves or each other. I think that is where people's focus turns to the writer's intent because we wonder if they understand the history etc, if they really think that the character thinks that or if they are projecting etc etc. I really do think it is a comic thang, viewing real actors is sooooo much richer/deeper and so more easily conveys nuances.

Morphia The friendship suggestion is ridiculous to be frank.

Maggie
29-03-13, 09:55 AM
I think it is something that is lost through tone/inflection. If I imagine JM saying the stuff about his soul/being a monster I can give it tone that makes it clear he doesn't mean what he is saying and is drunken/sulky/morose without changing the scripting. Equally I can give him one that sounds annoyed/glum/regretful that does pull into question that part of him genuinely means it.

Well, they've got him swigging from a bottle of absinthe, draping himself around Angel in a way he'd *never* do sober. I'm not sure what more they could have done, visual-wise.

And in the script, Spike starts the rant with "This is *entirely your fault*, you know" which is practically a quote from Lover's Walk when Spike was drunk of his arse. (See also his rant at Drusilla in Crush). Anytime Spike starts with "it's your fault", bs is sure to follow.

Then after the ranting, they have Spike say "Ah, who am I kidding? Let's be honest..." which one could take as a signal that what follows is closer to the truth. In this case: I'm not good at being on my own and I don't know how to get over Buffy.

I thought it was entirely clear, and quite well done.

Stoney
29-03-13, 10:26 AM
He was talking about his soul/monster in the graveyard I think, I haven't looked back. And in the basement it was definitely conveyed that he was drunk in that scene but the cohesion has to come from the verbal/visual collaboration as you say but it isn't the same strength as seeing the actors where you can get a lot more insight from a lot less. Particularly when you have to pull in historical knowledge of what the character says when they are about to come out with a load of bs. I certainly gained on how I read the scenes after hearing Gage's thoughts on Spike. I still dislike an awful lot but it added something I needed to hear.

Morphia
29-03-13, 11:39 AM
Yes, this Q&A may have prevented me just packing these things in right now. I just think it's unfortunate that so much explanation was needed after the event, because none of what Gage says was clear. In particular, up to now, I'd taken Faith's POV on everything as pretty much voice of the author, because that's what the text appeared to be telling me. Now, the author says she's an unreliable narrator.

I agree with Stoney that the comic book medium makes it a lot more difficult to see any nuance that might be there. It doesn't help that Rebekah Isaacs - usually very good - did a poor job with this issue. I didn't even get the whole 'Spike is afraid to face the Enders because he's afraid of losing his soul' from the art. He didn't look particularly worried to me.

hayes62
29-03-13, 11:50 AM
When Spike was drunk in Lover's Walk he was still able to give as good as he got from Angel. Similarly in TGIQ, which Gage seems to be using as model without realising that much of the fun of that episode comes from both of them acting like idiots. Gage even recognises that in the Q&A when he denies that the vibe in AtS S5 is "big/wiser brother vs. younger/foolish brother" but doesn't seem to realise that that's exactly how he's written it in this issue. By the time Spike comes along in S8 Angel is "pretty much possessed by Twilight" but Spike knew what he was doing before then. He recognises Angel in spite of the mask because he knows Angel well enough to see what Twilight was doing as an extension of who Angel is. So I think it's not only missing a chance for some real drama but completely uncharacteristic for Spike, however drunk, not to play the Twilight card in a rant about how Angel is the source of all his current troubles.

Gage also admires Spike for pushing "a relationship between Buffy and a man he believes is good for her even though it hurts him" so some of this is a difference in world view. He sees this as admirable rather than more paternalistic crap. At some level maybe he tolerates Angels' torturing Buffy to save her more than some of the readers because he doesn't see the basic problem with this "for her own good, which I know better than she does" attitude.

cil_domney
29-03-13, 05:12 PM
I feel it's a bit of both. Not talking about you in particular but I do think that fandom in general has been very hard on Gage. A lot of fans were pretty sceptical of A&F before it even began and a lot were expecting the worst. In that respect I think it has become a bit of a self-fufilling prophecy and that there was a mindset that this book would be bad before it was given much of a chance. I do think a lot of the nuances have been missed and that there's a certain degree of cynacism, I guess, that is overshadowing what is actually on the page. As fans we also tend to obsess (I know I sure do) over what the writer really feels and I think we waste a lot of the time trying to discern if what a character says is the Voice of the Author or simply that character's opinion. I do wonder if this is something fandom used to obsess about back when the show was on the air of if it's unqiue to the comics and we're all looking for writers to validate our opinions.

BUT Gage's writing certainly isn't flawless. I'm happy to hear his thoughts on Spike/Harmony but I don't think that came across on the page at all, which he pretty much admits to. He also conceded that he wasn't clear enough about why Angel and Faith reacted the way they did and has owned up to that. And despite understanding where he was coming from with Spike and his persona in this issue I tend to agree with Stoney that it was still too laddish/juvenile for my tastes. So it's a shame that a lot of what he says in this Q/A didn't translate well to page and a credit to him for at least taking responsibility for that.

There's plenty of other issues with his writing as well. I tend to think there's a pattern where he starts an arc off really strong but then stumbles in the end. There's a tendency for his writing to be a bit repetative (though this is far less prevelant now than it was in the beginning) and also too on-the-nose. His characterisation of Dark!Willow was blatantly OOC, Connor was a real missed opportunity, and there have been occasions where a character does a complete 180 in a matter of seconds which feels unearned. On the otherhand, I appreciate how much attention he pays to continuity, he has a real knack for creating interesting OCs, his stories always have a clear focus, I think he's generally got both Angel and Faith's voices down well, he's done a great job setting up conflict within the Angel/Faith relationship, and contrary to popular opinion I think his feelings about Angel and Twilight ("one of Angel’s biggest failings – possibly the biggest – is that he so badly wants to believe he can be a big, world-saving hero and “fix everything” that he does really stupid and often harmful things in the pursuit of that") is clear to see on the page. So it's a mixed bag.

It's a great Q&A and did a big help for a better understanding of what Mr. Gage intentions were and his understanding of the characters. We had previews interviews, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, that he had an admiration and liked Spike. BUT, having Spike appear at the door way with that attitude, well for a lot of readers it set a very negative tone against the character and was also very irritating. Perhaps it was not intended as a negative characterization but for me it was an extremely bad start because it presented the character as pretty much a jerk.

Want to also say "thanks" for all the efforts to get these interviews for us.

claudiawenlock
29-03-13, 07:44 PM
Well, we all know "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", and in this case, even after reading all the interview, and getting the explanation, even when I understand it, and liked a lot of the points that mr Gage did.
The fact is that the comic is what it is. Sadly the apparent intention of the writer didn´t came across in the book, and that´s what matters. Hoppefuly, this "events" will have not effect in the rest of the story. For what I can see Spike is not going to be in the next issue of A&F, and there is another Bufy issue before he is back.
So lets hope that is truth that "time can heal almost anything", and concentrate in the pressing issues at this moments that I think are Giles and Dawn.

Emmie
29-03-13, 08:48 PM
Not talking about you in particular but I do think that fandom in general has been very hard on Gage.

Honestly, I don't feel fans have been all that hard on Gage. Back in the beginning when he was fresh off the boat, everyone was YAY!!!1! impressed with the first few issues of A&F.

Chambliss has been the one getting the hard knocks when it comes to writing. Gage has been getting a free pass, barring TERRIBLE story turns like Angel biting Willow into orgasmic submission.

Chambliss has been raked across the coals, whereas Gage's A&F has been mostly treated as the only worthwhile reading for Season 9. I can only think of a few fans who've been consistently harsh on Gage's writing.

Harsh on perceived whitewashing? Yeah, that's something that's a fandom-wide event. But harsh on Gage as a writer? Nah.

He pretty much got handed the "you can stay" award right out the gate and it still hasn't been retracted even after the gross portrayal of Willow, nor the disappointingly regressive portrayal of Spike. The book is teemed full of sexist crap, sure, but he hasn't been vilified for anything. Honestly, even his piss poor writing decisions have resulted in more mockery at the title itself, as if Gage isn't really a known factor to level criticism at. Whenever A&F is critiqued, it's always in language referencing the ~issue or the title. There's not a lot of behind-the-scenes consideration for Gage as a writer, meaning there's not a lot of expectations for him as a writer, either. It's remarkably impersonal.

Part of the reason Gage has gotten a free pass is because he's not being compared to Joss as much. There's less expectations of Joss factor. So there's less disappointment in the absence of Joss with A&F as opposed to the Buffy title. It means Gage has gotten the easier hand to play. If anything, I think Gage gets too much credit for writing "GREAT PLOT OMG THINGS HAPPENED!!1!"

DanSlayer
30-03-13, 01:02 AM
Hm, very good interview. Faith was written well as usual. Some of the script from Spike was funny to me, although I do wish they had gone with a serious Spike and more of them actuallly talking to each other rather than a pissing contest.

Don't really see why people are saying Harmony was treated wrong, nobody forced her into anything, and I really don't think she wants her Blondie Bear back for a true "relationship".

I do think Spike just using her for sex after rejecting Morgan was a bit of a regression though. I really hope they don't the Harmony incident here as a reason for Buffy to reject Spike and act hoiler-than-thou towards him though.

I thank Gage for clearing up Angel & Faith's reaction at the end, and admitting he didn't handle it well enough on panel.

I am pro-Gage myself, even though I don't like every single thing he does. The Connor/Angel lovefest was overdone, and I was very disappointed Gunn was given nothing to do.That said, what Connor, Gunn (and Illyria) were doing during Twilight Time could add more to the Dark Horse/IDW confusion so I was not expecting them to go into that much. And the "happy-bite" made no sense, given what we saw on the shows most of the time. The hug between Angel and Willow I was OK with, and I can see why she supported Angel's plan as she does not regret bringing Buffy back.

But his OCs feel like show characters, each person stands out and has their own role in the story, he has a good grasp on the voices of A & F and even sane Dru, and he even made his villians a little sympathetic and clearly has respect for the shows, when explaining stuff like Whistler's history. I think he could pull off a "serious" Spike if he tried.

In terms of whitewashing Angel, I put that up to DH realizing that Angel is supposed to be a hero and 4 years of making him a Big Bad really caused some fan outcry. Angel has almost always been a "Big Picture" guy, just look at Not Fade Away. I could see show-Angel falling for a scheme if he was told it was for "the greater good" by someone he trusted.

Now about moving him away from that kind of thinking, well, I think Giles will have a lot of intresting things to say to him and Faith. Even if he doesn't come back to life, Rupert will somehow get the chance to talk with them I assume.

KingofCretins
30-03-13, 02:11 AM
I feel pretty good about Gage. I've called him on a few continuity flaws, but mostly I really enjoy him. I think he gets beat up on thematic things, but, hey -- this is the Buffyverse. You're more likely to see Jets fans give their team the benefit of the doubt on a first round pick than you are Buffy fans to give writers the benefit of the doubt on story into which anything might be deemed offensive.

As far as whitewashing, I don't even really fault him there either. Obviously he still has a boss, the guy whose name is on the book, and I'm pretty sure he was given general orders for this book that steer sharply away having a deep and season long remonstration on Season 8. And I also sympathize more plainly on a writing level -- it's not like he wrote that shite, why should he be robbed of an outlet for his otherwise pretty fun and interesting fancies? Why should it land in his face? So, let's just skate round a lot of that.

bonnaleah
30-03-13, 02:55 AM
(Also love the flat out statement that you can't pretend that Angelus is some whole other person. Waves at Bonnaleah).

Waves back at Maggie. I have to admit that this made me smile as I would have expected no less from you. Not to get into another big Angel/Angelus debate with you but let's have a closer look at what Gage actually said.

A vampire is created when the essence [or some part thereof] of a demon enters a dead human's body

The dead human is of course Liam.

But that vampire is not the demon's persona; nor is it the dead persons

No big surprise here. We were told early on that the demon will look like, walk like, talk like, and take on the personality traits of the dead human. Except that now the dead person's personality will be expressed and filtered through evil....so very obviously the personality isn't the personality of the demon ....the demon is borrowing from dead Liam....and the personality is also not the true personality of poor dead Liam because it is being being filtered through an evil lens.

It seems to be a new person that's kind of amalgam of the worst/least inhibited parts of the dead human and the demon. [Remember when Alternate Future Vampire Willow came back and real not yet gay Willow observed she was "kinda gay" and vampires have no connection to their human hosts and Angel was like, "Actually"....]

Still no new information here. The connection has always been that the demon incorporates the personality of the dead human and twists it with evil. But now for the best part.

So I don't think you can say Angelus and Angel are completely separate beings, but they're not the same being.

Nothing here that doesn't work for me. I'm not gonna get hung up on the word completely...they share a body after all...but they're not the same being. I'm more than happy with Gage's explanation and with the way it's been portrayed in the comics. I'm delighted that you too seem happy with the explanations given. I'm not sure how you square up Giles soul being the essence of Giles if Liam's soul is not the essence of Liam....or Angel/Angelus/ Giles...count em, three beings present in one body....but if it works for you then we're both good.

TimeTravellingBunny
30-03-13, 03:30 AM
The interview was very good and insightful (minus a couple of things, like the admiration of the paternalistic mindset that Hayes mentioned)... But unfortunately, it's what in the actual comic that really matters. All sorts of great explanations of "what I wanted to say" matter little when it doesn't come across on page. This Q&A makes me think that Gage should be Dark Horse's unofficial spokesperson (he's much better at this than Allie). But I'd much rather have a writer who gives interviews full of statements I disagree with and expresses attitudes that anger fans, and/or gives voice to strange and confusing theories, but whose writing is somehow really good despite that (like, say, David Fury during much of his tenure on BtVS, especially in his writing for Spike). It's what's on screen or on the page that's canon, not what the writers says he meant.

Anyway, I found this comment funny:

For one thing, I’m still pretty new to it (I’m still not completely sure what constitutes a “shipper”
Neither am I. In fact, nobody is. :lol: We're just been having a huge debate about it on another thread.


I think the dynamic between them HAS changed since Angel Season 5, probably in ways they don’t even realize yet, but it hasn’t changed completely. I’ve changed a lot since 1993, but put me in Vegas with an old buddy from school and I might not act like it.

To go back to my Vegas metaphor, if I mature and learn some things about myself and get to a good place, and then I run into an old friend from college and spend a night getting drunk and acting irresponsible the way I used to, that doesn’t “undo” my maturation.
In other words, when Angel is around, Spike is suffering from revertigo (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=revertigo&defid=3025190). :)



Part of the reason Gage has gotten a free pass is because he's not being compared to Joss as much. There's less expectations of Joss factor. So there's less disappointment in the absence of Joss with A&F as opposed to the Buffy title. It means Gage has gotten the easier hand to play. If anything, I think Gage gets too much credit for writing "GREAT PLOT OMG THINGS HAPPENED!!1!"
You can compare Gage to the writers of Angel's TV show, especially Tim Minear. He comes off just as badly in comparison.

Maggie
30-03-13, 05:36 AM
Waves back at Maggie. I have to admit that this made me smile as I would have expected no less from you. Not to get into another big Angel/Angelus debate with you but let's have a closer look at what Gage actually said.

Yes, let's. But why don't we take the whole quote?

In the Buffyverse, a vampire is created when the essence (or some part thereof) of a demon enters a dead human’s body. But that vampire is not the demon’s persona; nor is it the dead person’s.

The vampire isn't just a demon with its own persona inhabiting the corpse of the human. Any talk of Angelus as some alien demon personality is simply wrong.

It seems to be a new persona that’s kind of amalgam of the worst/least inhibited parts of the dead human and the demon. (Remember when Alternate Future Vampire Willow came back and Real Not Yet Gay Willow observed she was “kinda gay” and someone said vampires have no connection to their human hosts and Angel was like, “Actually…”)

Angelus's persona is some amalgam of Liam and the demon. I love that he cites Angel's "actually" because I've always thought that was pretty huge in debunking the idea that Angelus is some whole other being.

So I don’t think you can say Angelus and Angel are completely separate beings, but they’re not the same being…

This is where you stop. You try to get around Christos's claim that one CANNOT say that they are completely separate beings by saying that Gage must be talking about the fact that they share a body. But what does Christos go on to say?

Angelus is Angel’s dark side without the good parts.

That's the nut for me. I can see why you swerved around it. He's obviously not talking about how the only thing linking Angel and Angelus is the body. Angelus is Angel's dark side. I couldn't have put my own position any more clearly. Angelus is NOT some alien demon who just happens to share Angel's body/memories. It is Angel, minus the good features of Angel. When the soul is present the good features often trump the bad features (though the bad features are still there and still shape his behavior quite a bit). That's an important difference between Angel and Angelus, but it doesn't make them completely separate beings who just happen to reside in the same body.

vampmogs
30-03-13, 06:01 AM
It's pretty simple. When Kathy was sucking out Buffy's soul in Living Conditions it was gradually making her "no fun Buffy." Her worst attributes were becoming more prevelant the more her soul left her body. Willow jokingly remarked that it was "the evil twin" and that Buffy was bordering on Cordelia-esque behaviour when she began acting "bitchy" and, eventually, "homocidal crazy." It was not killing her or replacing her with an entirley new person -- just amplifying her worst traits or at the very least leaving her with none of the positives to balance them out.

Now, at the end of the episode Buffy's soul is restored to her and she's fully herself again but the episode ends with Buffy relieved that it was Kathy's demon-y ways making her act so badly only to get pissed off when Willow takes a bite of her sandwhich. In other words, whilst Kathy's soul-sucking absolutely caused Buffy to behave badly the fact of the matter is all of those traits were a part of Buffy. It wasn't an entirley new entity sharing Buffy's body and, more importantly, none of those negative traits simply disapeared once Buffy got her soul back.

It's no different with Angel/Angelus and that's exactly what Gage was saying. Angelus is Angel without any of the positive traits. Give Angelus a soul and be becomes "Angel", a guy who has both the negative traits of Angelus and the good traits thanks to a soul (empathy, compassion, love etc). But they are NOT two entirley seperate beings. They're just different versions of the same guy. Which is why way back in BtVS S1 when Angel explained to Buffy the curse he said -- "You have no idea what it's like to do the things that I've done, and care." That was the punishment.

I'd also point out that in Living Conditions when Buffy's soul was being taken from her it was not killing her. She was surviving just fine without a soul and would have survived had Kathy managed to steal all of it. Kathy was never attempting to kill Buffy, only use her soul so she could pass as a human and remain undetected by her demonic father. So that blows some major holes in the theory that the soul is the whole essence of a person.

DanSlayer
30-03-13, 10:31 PM
So... is Spike still going to be in A & F #21? I would think so otherwise what would be the point of giving him history with Pearl & Nash in his mini? Then goes back quickly to the Buffy title for her #22?

It's not such a logistical crunch if the Scoobies got to the Deeper Well and are just on the other side of England or something, but then it raises the question of why Angel & Faith don't at least try to help with the Dawn crisis?

bonnaleah
31-03-13, 03:47 AM
Yes, let's. But why don't we take the whole quote?

In the Buffyverse, a vampire is created when the essence (or some part thereof) of a demon enters a dead human’s body. But that vampire is not the demon’s persona; nor is it the dead person’s.

The vampire isn't just a demon with its own persona inhabiting the corpse of the human.

Agreed.


Any talk of Angelus as some alien demon personality is simply wrong.

Actually, Angelus as "some alien personality" is pretty much exactly what he is.....Angelus is the amalgam Gage was talking about. A blend of the demon essence and dead Liam's worst/least inhibited parts.



It seems to be a new persona that’s kind of amalgam of the worst/least inhibited parts of the dead human and the demon. (Remember when Alternate Future Vampire Willow came back and Real Not Yet Gay Willow observed she was “kinda gay” and someone said vampires have no connection to their human hosts and Angel was like, “Actually…”)

Angelus's persona is some amalgam of Liam and the demon. I love that he cites Angel's "actually" because I've always thought that was pretty huge in debunking the idea that Angelus is some whole other being.

Gage mentioning Angel's "actually" was part of his explanation about the new persona that emerges when a vampire is made. And as I said earlier it is nothing we didn't already know....and something Angel as a vampire would have surely known. One of the very first things about vampires we were ever told in fact. So you always thinking something doesn't strike me as a very good counter argument.



So I don’t think you can say Angelus and Angel are completely separate beings, but they’re not the same being…

This is where you stop. You try to get around Christos's claim that one CANNOT say that they are completely separate beings by saying that Gage must be talking about the fact that they share a body.

No, I'm not trying to get around anything. I'm pretty sure I understand what the noun "being" means, and Gage has confirmed that they aren't the same being. Correct me if I'm wrong but you have always maintained that Angel/Angelus was a single being, who sometimes had a conscience and sometimes did not...isn't that right?



But what does Christos go on to say?

Angelus is Angel’s dark side without the good parts.That's the nut for me. I can see why you swerved around it. He's obviously not talking about how the only thing linking Angel and Angelus is the body. Angelus is Angel's dark side. I couldn't have put my own position any more clearly.


Here's the part that you swerved around. Gage goes on to immediately say how Spike's souless side seemed to have more of William's good parts.... so it's clear that what Gage meant to say was that Angelus was Liam's dark side without the good parts.... because otherwise his explanation makes no sense. What does make sense is that Gage's statement was just further elaboration of the things he had already tried to explain.....mainly that the vampire is a blend of demon essence and the dead humans bad parts....or in Spike's case more good parts. In any event Spike didn't get those good parts from himself, he got them from William...by the same token even if Angel/Angelus were the same being...which we've been told they are not....
the good or bad qualities would have come from Liam and not from themselves. The same rules have to apply after all.


Angelus is NOT some alien demon who just happens to share Angel's body/memories. It is Angel, minus the good features of Angel.

Gage has just told us that Angelus is the result of a blending of the demon and Liam's bad traits, so no Angelus isn't Angel minus the good features of Angel. You seem to forget that Angelus was around for about 150 years before Angel came into being. For your theory to hold up Angel would have had to be in existence from the moment the demon essence took over Liam's dead body....and we know this isn't true. We all witnessed Angel coming into being in "Becoming"....2nd Gage has just told us that Angel and Angelus are not the same being....and 3rd Angel and Angelus are being counted as two beings in the canon text of the comic.


When the soul is present the good features often trump the bad features (though the bad features are still there and still shape his behavior quite a bit). That's an important difference between Angel and Angelus, but it doesn't make them completely separate beings who just happen to reside in the same body.

And again this completely ignores Gage telling us that they are not the same being. Liam's soul being returned to the body brought Angel into existence and now we see that Gile's soul in Angel's body brought Giles into some state of existence as a recognizable being, with a voice, and memories. Like I said, if you have found a way to get around all that in a way that makes sense to you then that's great. You're allowed to think what you want.


It's pretty simple. When Kathy was sucking out Buffy's soul in Living Conditions it was gradually making her "no fun Buffy." Her worst attributes were becoming more prevelant the more her soul left her body. Willow jokingly remarked that it was "the evil twin" and that Buffy was bordering on Cordelia-esque behaviour when she began acting "bitchy" and, eventually, "homocidal crazy." It was not killing her or replacing her with an entirley new person -- just amplifying her worst traits or at the very least leaving her with none of the positives to balance them out.

Now, at the end of the episode Buffy's soul is restored to her and she's fully herself again but the episode ends with Buffy relieved that it was Kathy's demon-y ways making her act so badly only to get pissed off when Willow takes a bite of her sandwhich. In other words, whilst Kathy's soul-sucking absolutely caused Buffy to behave badly the fact of the matter is all of those traits were a part of Buffy. It wasn't an entirley new entity sharing Buffy's body and, more importantly, none of those negative traits simply disapeared once Buffy got her soul back.

Yes Kathy was a demon, but she wasn't filling Buffy's body with her own essence....she was just sucking Buffy's soul from her. Had Kathy been successful Buffy would have just been souless. She wouldn't have been turned into a vampire or gone through the process Gage described for us. There would have been no dead body for Kathy's essence to blend with and produce the new persona Gage told us about....a persona that wasn't Kathy's demon essence, and wasn't Buffy, but a brand new being. So while the situations may seem similar they are really very different.


I'd also point out that in Living Conditions when Buffy's soul was being taken from her it was not killing her. She was surviving just fine without a soul and would have survived had Kathy managed to steal all of it. Kathy was never attempting to kill Buffy, only use her soul so she could pass as a human and remain undetected by her demonic father. So that blows some major holes in the theory that the soul is the whole essence of a person.

Not really. When Giles does a spell to retrieve Buffy's soul...well here's the text from the episode..

Giles: 'Let it be finished. Let the unnatural vessel be emptied, let the essence be returned to it's original host.'

Giles could have just said "let the soul be returned to it's original host"....but he said essence...and we all know that it was Buffy's soul that Giles was talking about ....so really there is no major hole blowage in the theory of human soul being the essence of the human. We're actually seeing that theory play out right now concerning Giles and his human soul.

vampmogs
31-03-13, 04:09 AM
Yes Kathy was a demon, but she wasn't filling Buffy's body with her own essence....she was just sucking Buffy's soul from her.

I never said Kathy was filling Buffy's body with her own essence? :headscratch:


Had Kathy been successful Buffy would have just been souless.

Exactly. She would have been soulless but still alive. Which completely debunks the theory that the soul is actually a being and not just a moral comapss. How could Buffy remain alive if the soul/essence is the actual person?


Not really. When Giles does a spell to retrieve Buffy's soul...well here's the text from the episode..

Giles: 'Let it be finished. Let the unnatural vessel be emptied, let the essence be returned to it's original host.'

Giles could have just said "let the soul be returned to it's original host"....but he said essence...and we all know that it was Buffy's soul that Giles was talking about ....so really there is no major hole blowage in the theory of human soul being the essence of the human. We're actually seeing that theory play out right now concerning Giles and his human soul.

Of course it blows major holes in your theory. How on earth could Buffy survive having her soul/essence removed from her body if it makes up who she is? All that should be left is an empty corpse. The fact Giles switches between soul and essence should just drive home the point how non-literally we should take that word. If a "soul/essence" is an actual person then Buffy would have been dead. Instead, as you say, all we're left with is a soulless version of Buffy. A Buffy without a moral compass because THAT'S what a soul is. If the soul was really the person (which you base your whole Angel/Angelus theory around -- that Liam is the soul placed back into the body) then there should be no soulless Buffy left in the corpse. It should just be an empty shell as Buffy (her being, her conciousness, her essence) was no longer in it. As you say, Kathy wasn't placing a demon essence into Buffy's body so there should have been NOTHING animating it.

That's not what happened, though. The soul was just Buffy's moral comapss and once that was taken from her she still existed. The same is true of Angel/Angelus. And once their soul is restored to them both Angelus and Buffy have their morality back.

KingofCretins
31-03-13, 04:14 AM
This is usually where I chime in to remind people that there really is no canonical, factually-based reason to just assume that people mean "soul" in the Buffyverse in a specific and singular definition every time they use it than... well, than they do in the real world (hint -- when James Brown says he's got soul, he's not actually talking about an eternal, divinely created essence :)).

So the "soul" Kathy was stealing, the "soul" Angel was cursed with and Spike won, the "soul" that was burned out of Halfrek... all could mean somewhat different things. It's really the easiest way to resolve the apparent contradictions -- to consider that there actually aren't any contradictions, because they aren't the same thing.

Local Maximum
31-03-13, 04:27 AM
Right, and when humans use the word "soul" IRL, it means a different things in different contexts too.

MikeB
31-03-13, 08:28 AM
All caught up

________

I’ll only respond to posts about the actual Issue, meaning post #8 on. I’m generally not going to respond to speculation.


My bp&a so I don’t have to repeat myself: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=661631&postcount=63 (post #63).



* Spike knows that he’s the one who left Buffy. He did this in “Chosen” (7.22), after “Destiny” (A 5.08) he decided not to go back to her, he left after 8.39, and he left again after 9.10. Spike knows he can be in a relationship with Buffy.

Buffy in 9.01 wanted to have sex with him. When she thought she was pregnant, she seriously considering running off with him. She left clothing and such on his bugship. She clearly wants to be with him. Since 6.22, Spike seems to want to be with Buffy less than she wants to be with him.


* Buffy in BtVS S6 was in love with Spike. She used him as her emotional punching bag. She wasn’t ‘using him for sex’ (in any case, they were mostly having the kind of sex he wanted) given that she clearly had feelings for him.


* Faith was heavily flirting with Spike in “Who Are You” (4.16), brought that up in “Dirty Girls” (7.18), got into bed with him, and ‘emphasized’ her figure to him. It’s clear if Buffy hadn’t shown up when she did Faith would have had sex with Spike (if he decided to have sex with her).


* Another problem with the shackling of Angel is that Spike’s entire ‘rant’ to him happens with Spike being about two feet or less from him. Spike easily could have been taken about unawares by Angel (he does most of his rant with his back turned from Angel and it could have been 5-10 minutes or more with his back turned to Angel) and Angel could have used those chains to choke or even perhaps try to decapitate Spike.

In “Never Leave Me” (7.09), Buffy was looking at Spike the entire time and after cleaning him is mostly outside the reach of ‘the danger zone’. When Angel was feral in early BtVS S3, she’s always outside the reach of ‘the danger zone’.

Spike is simply being careless/reckless and/or stupid here.


* Spike had sex with Harmony in BtVS S4 for about the exact reason he had sex with her in “Destiny” (A 5.08). Spike having sex with Harmony in BtVS S4 and BtVS S5 didn’t at-all make his love and attachment to Drusilla (and Buffy) any less. His having sex with Anya didn’t lessen his love and attachment to Buffy. In AtF (if canon) his love and attachment to Drusilla and Buffy wasn’t lessened after all the sex he had with Spider and Co. His love for Fred wasn’t lessened.

Even Spike being with Buffy didn’t ‘erase’ his love and attachment to Drusilla.

It makes no sense that his wanting to have sex with someone is because he actually wants to “move on” from Buffy. He simply wanted to get laid before going back to San Francisco.


* Harmony wanting to be chained up and calling out “I hope the big bad doesn't come in here and ravage me!” I don’t know if this is what Harmony wants, what Harmony thinks Spike wants, or Spike gave her the impression he wants to revert to a mixture of his BtVS S4 and mid-BtVS S5 self. To that point, there’s no indication Spike did any bondage (or S&M) with the Buffybot.


* Angel: “Was I ever that pathetic?” regarding Spike’s bemoaning Spike’s romantic troubles.

Does Angel not remember 1898-1900? Does Angel not remember BtVS S1-S3? Does Angel not remember AtS s1-AtS s4? Does Angel not remember BtVS S8?

Spike was simply whiny about Vin and Sophie rejecting him and he was whining about his not being able to “move on” from Buffy. Yet Angel has to ask whether Spike’s being more pathetic than Angel’s ever been?


* A ‘shipper is simply someone who prefers one relationship (or wants one relationship) over another relationship.


________

http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3370-*COMPLETE*-Q-amp-A-with-Christos-Gage-for-ANGEL-amp-FAITH-20

First off, what is in the comics is about all that’s important given Christos Gage isn’t an arbiter of canon.


These are my responses to things he said:

First off, Gage it seems perhaps wrote A&F 9.19 and A&F 9.20 before even the scripts for the last one or two or more of BtVS S9: Spike scripts were done, much less the actual comics. Gage seems to simply ignore that miniseries. He doesn’t understand some fundamentals of the Buffy/Spike relationship (like what it was in BtVS S7 – BtVS S9 and that it was more than sex in BtVS S6). Essentially, he doesn’t understand the Buffy/Spike relationship.

Secondly, it seems Gage decided to write the Angel-Spike dynamic as if in post-BtVS S8 it should be the same as it was in post-BtVS S7.

Third, Gage doesn’t understand that Spike’s not Angel and that Angel/Nina is not Spike/Harmony. Spike wasn’t with Harmony in an attempt to try to “move on” from Drusilla. It seems Gage doesn’t remember and/or understand “Crush” (5.14). Anyway, Harmony was his girlfriend when he was with her. Spider (if canon) was his girlfriend. But being with Spider didn’t lessen any feelings he had for Drusilla, Buffy, Fred, and Illyria. That’s simply not how Spike works.

Fourth, he comes up with this ‘win-win situation’ evasion by saying Spike saying something doesn’t necessarily mean he means what he says and the same goes for Faith. Essentially, Gage is saying if one likes what Spike says, one can consider he actually meant what he says. If one doesn’t, one can consider he didn’t mean what he says. And the same goes for Faith.


Answer 2:

* Spike at-most was perhaps pushing Dowling to be with Buffy. He wasn’t pushing Buffy to be with Dowling. Spike was trying to get Buffy to think of Spike as her husband (thus the whole raising her child together and living together) and he wanted Buffy to leave San Francisco with him.


* Buffy does want to be with Spike, Spike knows this, and that’s why at the end of his miniseries he decides to eventually back to San Francisco and be with her again.


* In AtS s5, Spike brawling, getting drunk (which happened when?), and getting laid (if after Harmony he was having sex with others) had about nothing to do with Angel. In AtF (if canon), Spider and Co. and living in the Playboy Mansion and boozing wasn’t about Angel.


* It almost seems Gage is implying that a reason Spike decided to go to London is to hook up with Faith.


*
CG: As for my take on what a vampire is He said HIS take, not Joss Whedon’s take. Gage’s “take” on what “Angelus” and “Angel” are doesn’t mesh with how A&F Spike views them.



Answer 3:

* Fundamentally, Gage considers the events of BtVS S8 wouldn’t have and shouldn’t have changed Spike’s regard for and dynamic with Angel.


*
CG: By the time Spike came along in Season 8, Angel was pretty much possessed by Twilight. It seems Spike came along before the world-ending stuff was happening (maybe around an hour or hours before). Anyway, before the events of 8.35and maybe even 8.34. Angel wasn’t possessed by Twilight until 8.38.

If anything, if Angel was “pretty much possessed by Twilight”, why wouldn’t Angel inform the Slayers and the Scoobies that Buffy was “pretty much possessed by Twilight” and therefore she’s not at all responsible for having sex with Angel.

Plus, Angel didn’t tell Willow that the original plan was for him to bring all the good people of Earth into Twilight with him and Buffy and he only didn’t or couldn’t because he was “pretty much possessed by Twilight”. He blamed Buffy being talkative for the reason all the good people of Earth weren’t currently living in a paradise dimension.

So, no, Spike arrived before Angel did the worst thing he tried to do in BtVS S8: tried to keep Buffy in Twilight while the world and all its life was destroyed. Spike would know Buffy’s leaving Twilight is the only reason the world wasn’t destroyed. And Angel killed hundreds of Slayers long before Spike came through that ‘dimensional tear’ back to Earth.


CG: somehow Angel still seems to just get this role of “the great cosmic love of Buffy’s life” Buffy shooed Angel away (twice) in favor of being with Spike. Buffy currently seems to want nothing to do with Angel while she was seriously contemplating moving away with Spike. After 8.39, if Spike merely wanted some sex with Buffy he would have done that already (and maybe he has).



Answer 6


CG: I think Spike especially (and Faith too) is a character whose words you can’t always take at face value, especially in this story. We don’t have the actors there acting. What is on the page for the most part is going to be taken at ‘face value’ because that’s simply what’s on the page. I don’t see what Faith says can’t be taken at face value unless we see some inner monologue or a scene with her alone with her saying, “Angel’s not as good as Spike.”


CG: it’s got to bother him that Buffy was willing to have a sexual relationship with him when he was soulless and not now. Spike’s somehow forgotten “Chosen” (7.22), “Damage” (A 5.11), BtVS 9.01, etc.? She had sex with him in BtVS S7.


CG: it’s got to grate on Spike that she was willing to get closer to him when he was a “soulless monster” than now. This is simply not based on canon. Christos Gage may as well have said Spike didn’t get closer to Buffy in BtVS S5-7 than he did in BtVS S2-4.

Buffy was closer to Spike in BtVS S7 than she was previously. She was openly in a ‘relationship’ with him while in BtVS S6 she wanted their relationship to be ‘on the down low’. There’s “Touched” (7.20) and what Spike says about it in “End of Days” (7.21).

BtVS S9 has Buffy telling him she seriously contemplated running away with him and raising her child with him.

Spike knows Buffy wants to have sex with him. His problems with Buffy have nothing to do with her willingness to have sex with him.


* I wonder if Gage thinks the glow had nothing to do with Buffy having sex with AngelTwilight and if he thinks Buffy still wants to have sex with Angel.

Anyway, these are merely Gage’s opinions and not Joss’s. Gage wrote a Spike that’s incompatible with the Spike from TV BtVS, canonical comics BtVS, and Spike’s DH miniseries.


* Spike’s friends with Harmony? Since when? And if that’s true, why wouldn’t he have Harmony hook Buffy up with contacts so Buffy can get a good-paying job in the entertainment industry?



Answer 7


CG: [Angel and Faith] weren’t disgusted at the idea of Spike and Harmony having sex Yes, they were. That’s what’s in the dialog and in the artwork.



Answer 9


CG: The “canon” question is something that, to my mind, only Joss can answer. This not only applies to which comics are canon – It also applies to the interpretation of those comics, and what in those comics is actually canon.


* If Buffy didn’t tell Spike she was never with the Immortal (unlikely), Andrew eventually would have told Spike. Spike knows a control was the reason Buffy had sex with AngelTwilight. Spike doesn’t say nonsense when he vents. He wouldn’t have said she ‘dumped him’ for the Immortal and he wouldn’t have said she ‘dumped’ him for AngelTwilight.



Answer 12


Drusilla showing up would have had a lot of baggage. When Angel last saw her, she was insane again and he now knows she murdered a Slayer right afterward. Um, who cares? This is disgusting hypocrisy. Dru killed a Slayer in self-defense. Angel did what he did in BtVS S8. Willow in the IDW Spike miniseries (if canon) was able to be quickly okay with Dru. Aside from Nadira, everyone in A&F seems okay or better with Angel than he or she was in AtS s5.


He and Faith obviously looked for her and couldn’t find her; Wow, this is alarming. Gage doesn’t even remember what’s in A&F.


A Spike/Dru reunion feels to me like something that needs more room and should take place in a Spike-focused book like his own title or BTVS. Yet the Angel-Spike reunion wasn’t afforded the luxury of being anything beyond Spike becoming unrealistically okay with Angel and Spike mostly not even mentioning what Angel did in BtVS S8. Even the Spike-Faith stuff mostly involved Faith considering Angel better than Spike and Spike needing to move on from Buffy. It seems Spike’s only in A&F to try to prop up A&F’s sales figures, to try to get another key Buffyverse character to be okay with Angel, to show A&F readers that Angel is better than Spike, and to have Spike think and say Angel is better than he is.


That said, it’s certainly conceivable that Angel brought Spike up to speed on Dru’s latest activities, off-panel. Yet it’s somehow inconceivable to Gage that Spike knows Buffy didn’t date the Immortal.



Answer 14

* He agreed to the Twilight thing because he was given the idea that if he went along with Whistler’s plan, he’d get to be in a “happy place” with Buffy.



Answer 16


CG: I think Victor did an amazing job writing Spike, and I certainly was reading the scripts as they came in, although I think issue #20 may have been written before the last issue of Spike’s mini. Wow. It’s possible A&F 9.19 was also written before the last Issue or two (or more?) of the Spike mini.

I’m very tempted to consider that Spike simply went to London to help with the Giles situation, did help, and eventually went back to San Francisco and take everything else ‘with a grain of salt’.

This is extremely unprofessional and careless of Dark Horse. The Spike miniseries should have been written and drawn before Gage even started writing the Angel-Spike-Faith interactions in A&F 9.19 and A&F 9.20.




Maggie

* Harmony obviously still has feelings for Spike. Now she’s willing to be chained up for him.

________________________________________________


Spike has never been able to form connections well with folks aside from the women he's in relationship with. Angel, Willow, Dawn, Fred, Illyria, and whatever from the IDW stuff is canon. Even when soulless, Spike easily formed connections with people. He simply is very selective in whom he wants to form a connection with.


His deep self-image is the guy that the "cool kids" mock, but who can be redeemed/understood by that special someone. The only instance in which Spike thought of his previous ‘William Pratt loserness’ is when Buffy rejected him telling him he’s beneath her. Ever since being sired, Spike’s reasoned and considered that he’s ‘cool’.



Morphia


Anyone else think it's amusing (in an ironic way) that this comic has Spike moaning off about women preferring bad boys and nice guys never getting their due? That's been the complaint of so many fans about the popularity of this character over the years. He's nasty. Why do those silly girlies like him?

Deliberate? Maybe. In-verse it makes no sense Spike would be saying such things. He was with Drusilla for around 120 years, 100 of those without Angel being ‘in the mix’. Harmony, Spider (if canon), and Beck (if canon) are Spike sycophants and all would love to be with him. He had the best sex of his life with Buffy and she ended up choosing him over her father figure, Scoobies, Robin Wood, and Angel. Spike’s the one who left her. Spike is able to get a new girl every night he decides to go to the Bronze. Spike had Spider and Co. Spike has the best ‘track record’ with women of anyone in the Buffyverse. Does anyone think Spike would prefer the track record of someone like Riley or Xander?



TimeTravellingBunny

* She was having a ton of sex with him in BtVS S6 and she initially seems uncomfortable with his having a soul. She left him in the basement, complains that Spike doesn’t seem to want her anymore, tells him in “Get It Done” (7.15) she wants the Spike from “School Hard” (2.03), etc. She loved/s souled Spike more than she loved soulless Spike, but it’s possible she was more attracted to soulless Spike than she is to souled Spike. Having said that, nothing after “Get It Done” would have Spike considering that maybe Buffy would prefer if he never won his soul back or maybe prefer that he be de-souled, so I agree in general that his speech to Angel and himself made no sense.

________________________________________________


You can compare Gage to the writers of Angel's TV show, especially Tim Minear. He comes off just as badly in comparison. That’s insulting to Tim Minear. :)



KingofCretins

* Morgan still wants to be with Spike.

________________________________________________

* Spike wouldn’t consider Harmony “a higher class of partner” than Morgan unless he considers Harmony’s Rules would somehow put Harmony as being superior to Morgan.


* He could go to a bar or a club; instead, he has sex with someone whom he knows is a sycophant of his. His having sex with Harmony wouldn’t prove to him that he has “more game than he used to” anymore than having sex with Spider or Beck would.

________________________________________________

* I remember only Drusilla being confirmed to have eaten babies. Darla offering a baby for Angel to eat doesn’t automatically mean she and he fed on babies.



Vampire in Rug

* The “IDW ongoing” isn’t canon. We don’t even know what from the stuff Brian Lynch and Juliet Landau wrote is canon.

* Leyki/Georgia’s country or whatever gets the comics a day before others get them.

________________________________________________


The idea that Angel was sexually pleasuring Willow when he bit her and stopped her from going dark is a fan assumption, there was nothing in the text that sexualized it. It clearly was sexual pleasure.


* In A&F, Spike referred to Angel and Angelus as two different people whereas he referred to his own soulless and souled selves as the same person. You don’t see any problem with this?


[Alasdair] does not literally think that Angelus could beat Faith, Spike and himself all at once, especially when Angel's soul and Giles's soul are still in play. I take his words at face value. In A&F 9.19, Gage had Spike saying Angelus could kill the total of Spike, Faith, and 12 Slayers “in a moment.”


And after the soul extraction, everyone is cool with Angel taking off the chains and walking around upstairs like it's nothing. To be fair, perhaps Spike had the key.


* Faith went from being confrontational with Spike because he’d prefer to not risk his body and soul being destroyed to being compassionate with him after an Ender tried to take his soul and eat it. This doesn’t seem to ‘flow’.


* My quote: “Why would Spike think Faith was still dating Robin Wood?”

Wood wasn’t on the bugship, Buffy didn’t mention Faith still being with Wood, and Spike had no reason to believe Wood was in London.


* My quote: “Spike would remember how Buffy in “Sleeper” (7.09) reacted when Spike gave her the impression that he was sleeping around.”

A few disagreeing doesn’t change what is actually in the episode. Buffy clearly knew he was referring to his sleeping around.

If one wants to dismiss “Sleeper”, there’s the aftermath of “Entropy” (6.18) to consider. Buffy was extremely upset by Spike having sex with Anya. There’s “Dirty Girls” (7.18) and Buffy’s reaction to seeing Spike in bed with Faith to consider.


* Vin and Sophie’s reason for not having sex with Spike is specifically they assume he’d get “attached” to them. And they say that they probably would have had sex with soulless him.

If Spike were shown to have ‘game’, he would have ended up having sex with them instead of what actually happens in the Issue. His only hurdle was to convince them he wouldn’t get “attached” to them.


There is very little to suggest that Spike would want to pursue Drusilla romantically again, I'd like to think that Spike has grown past Drusilla. If canon, there’s the IDW Spike miniseries stuff. Spike had sex with Harmony in this Issue.


* Morgan probably gave Spike a phone number.


* My quote: “Spike knows Angel never got over Buffy. Did Spike somehow forget “In the Dark” (A 1.03), AtS s5, and BtVS S8?”

My point is it makes no sense that Spike would say Angel “moved on” from Buffy as in “Angel no longer wanted to eventually be with Buffy.”


Where I disagree with this issue of A&F is the implication that Spike didn't build a life for himself outside of Buffy. Spike stayed with the Fang Gang instead of going back to Buffy. Spike probably wouldn’t consider that his “building a life.”

The bugship and bugs were pretty much given to him by their former King.

For Spike, ‘building a life’ would probably be something such as if he decided to have Spider and Co. and Beck be his own form of ‘The Scooby Gang’.


Spike didn't admire Angel being at W&H, but he still hung around with Angel and W&H for pretty much the entire time which is a tad hypocritical. He considered his only decent options were go be with Buffy and the Scoobies or to stay with the Fang Gang. Hypocrisy would be his deciding to get a job at Wolfram and Hart (as COO or an EVP of something).


As for Angel charging people when he worked at AI, that was a legit business and a legit way for Angel to help people. The Scoobies didn’t charge people. Spike had problem with it and says so in “In the Dark” (A 1.03) and it’s not as if souled Spike is going to think better on that.


* Spike would probably only know about Angel/Darla (if he knows Darla is Connor’s mother), Angel/Cordelia, and Angel/Nina.

We don’t know what Angel or whoever else told him about Angel/Cordelia, but those two were never in an actual relationship. Pretty much, Spike would only know about “You’re Welcome” (A 5.12).

* Spike said “saw women”, which means he was referring to Angel dating and/or having sex with other women.

Spike had Spider and Co. Even if Spike was referring to Angel falling in love with Cordelia that wouldn’t make sense either.

Spike went from Cecily Underwood to Drusilla Keeble (if the surname is canon) to Buffy Summers. If Spike were to “move on” from Buffy, he’d move on to someone on par with or ‘better’ than Buffy. Even if he’d be congratulating Angel being with someone Spike has around zero respect for (improbable), Spike wouldn’t want to move on to someone he considers far beneath Buffy.


Spike is insecure and probably thinks that he's having more difficulty than Angel when it comes to "moving on" from Buffy. Again: BtVS S8. And, again, Spike reasons Angel’s trying to resurrect Giles is mostly about Angel wanting to try to score some ‘points’ with Buffy.


My quote: Faith’s place has only two bathrooms?

Only? That’s a big place. And if Spike has his own room, the place has at least 4 bedrooms.


* My quote: “Harmony created Harmony’s Rules. She’s responsible for probably at least thousands of lives being saved. Angel has no right to consider Harmony as someone somehow ‘beneath’ Angel.”

The obvious point is that Harmony’s responsible for thousands of lives being saved while Angel did what he did in BtVS S8.



BAF


Also enjoyed the moment where Angel tells Spike he's not over Buffy either.Thought that was some nice bonding moments in immediate panels leading up to it too even though Angel doesn't say anything until that moment.And played much better IMO than the end of TGIQ which I think was going for the same idea but a comedy route rather than drama here. “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) had Buffy ‘having fun’ with someone who’s so cool and awesome that he got Darla and Drusilla into a three-way, which was something that neither Angel nor Spike was able to do. Essentially, Angel and Spike decide to temporarily ‘move on’ from Buffy because she’s currently with someone that neither may be able to compete with and they have Wolfram and Hart stuff to deal with. Plus, Angel and Spike were about on the same level of evilness.

In A&F 9.20, BtVS S8 happened.



cil_domney

Faith’s hero worship of Angel is bad enough as-is; I hope her character isn’t made even worse by having her decide to be in a relationship with Angel.



ubi4soft


Being sexist is less than Angel as a child molester. In issue #1 Angel bit a little girl and later he explained to Willow that vampire bite stimulates brain's pleasure center or something Even if he did stimulate that girl’s brain’s pleasure center, he did a good thing by helping to get that demon out of her. What is offensive about the Willow thing is Angel being able to do that to someone who’s a lesbian, never seemed attracted to Angel and who still on some level hated Angel.

1880: William was attracted to Drusilla and was eager to become what she is. 1999: Buffy’s in love with Angel and is risking her life to try to save him. 2000: Buffy was shown being attracted to Dracula and Willow makes a big point of Buffy likely being attracted to Dracula (and Willow herself seems somewhat attracted to Dracula).

Frankly, the Willow biting is far worse than if in “You’re Welcome” (A 5.12) Spike was shown being able to bring Cordelia to ‘completion’ by drinking from her.



Stoney


[Spike was drawn] was way too beefed up at the end. With Spike, we have examples like in “Gone” (6.11) and the Buffybot in “Bargaining Part I” (6.01) commented on his abs. So, it seems plausible that Spike could be that ripped. As for ‘bulk’, he was bulkier in BtVS S7.



sybil


I know it’s totally stupid, but I have zero understanding why Harmony plays out so large in the life of Angel, except some weird hope she is going to “grow herself a soul?” She was already working at Wolfram and Hart before Angel was hired. She got a job on Britain’s Got Talent and needed Angel’s help taking care of a potential PR problem.


* Spike/Harmony isn’t comparable to Spike/Drusilla and Spike doesn’t consider it comparable. Spike knows Drusilla is in love with him (especially if the IDW Spike miniseries is canon).


[Angel] is a “natural” leader because his strength of “big picture” is also his great “weakness.” This makes no sense. Someone is a “natural” leader if they think in “big picture” and that thinking is his or her great weakness?

Angel isn’t a natural leader. Darla was technically the leader of the Fanged Four. Spike simply considered Angel the leader and seemed kinda dismissive of Darla.

Over in AtS, Angel’s only the leader because the Powers That Be made him their champion and the Fang Gang needed money. Angel’s literally only the leader because he’s their boss.

And – to make this on-topic – Spike doesn’t mention Angel’s leadership abilities.


I don’t see Spike really “making a life” separate from Buffy Spike’s mostly been away from Buffy for the 3-10 years since “Chosen” (7.22).


[Spike] craves what I don’t think he has ever had: Being made love to and making love that is truly ‘seen.’ (NO, he did not make love to Buffy in season seven He did “make love” to Buffy in BtVS S7. Are you talking about ‘gentle lovemaking’? It’s obvious Drusilla, Harmony, Buffy, and Spider were and are in love with him. Spike doesn’t seem to prefer ‘gentle lovemaking’.


Spike, for all the goofing on his sexual studliness, is still “a virgin!” That’s simply laughable.


* Not going to discuss the general Buffy/Spike relationship, but Spike got closer to Buffy than Angel ever got and was more important in her life than Angel was. And Spike would likely acknowledge both these things.

Spike doesn’t think Angel has a better chance with Buffy; he likely thinks Angel has about no chance with Buffy.


* Spike forms relationships with demons because he can more relate to someone like Drusilla, Harmony, Buffy (she has a demon spirit inside her), and Spider than he can to a non-supernatural human.



vampmogs


I'd almost see it as disrespectful to Buffy had Spike not shown some consideration [to Giles] seeing as how he meant to so much to her. Spike hasn’t even informed Buffy of the Giles situation.


* Faith is incorrect that Spike ‘left’ Buffy for similar reasons to why Angel left Buffy.


Final word on the Angel/Angelus dichtomoty -- "The semantics don't matter." That’s what Alasdair says. Alasdair was simply concerned about Angel’s potential danger if Angelus became the ‘dominant’ personality among the demon, the soul, and Giles’ soul.


I guess my solution would be to simply leave Harmony alone? It's why Buffy had to breakup with souless!Spike in S6 -- "I'm using you and it's killing me. I'm sorry, William". Do what's best for both of you and leave her be. If she's pretty much nothing but a big joke to you, if she's not capable of earning your respect, then stay away from her because it's not fair on her and it doesn't look good on you. Buffy didn’t have to breakup with Spike in BtVS S6 and for the rest of the Season she spoke of their relationship in the present tense. Spike isn’t “pretty much nothing but a big joke to” her in BtVS S6 and he was capable of earning her respect.


And I really have trouble believing that Angel would act this way? Angel did what he did in BtVS S8 and he doesn’t even apologize to Spike about that. In A&F, Angel’s acting as if he’s better than Spike. It’s not a stretch he’d give Harmony’s number to him and later call him shallow.

Also, Angel’s “solution” to dealing with Buffy/the Immortal was to have sex with Nina.

________________________________________________


I do think that fandom in general has been very hard on Gage. I don’t know what you include in “fandom”.

For me, Andrew Chambliss has been getting unfair criticism on this Board and on SA. Chambliss signed on thinking he’d get to write Buffy/Spike and he probably didn’t think Willow was already going to be gone by 9.06 and not return until like 9.21. Chambliss has done well with what he has to work with.


Christos Gage needed to give a good reason for why Angel shouldn’t be dusted. What he did instead is say that Angel was already redeemed before A&F even began. Then have about all the characters in A&F have about the same or better relationships with Angel than they had in AtS s5. Angel inexplicably doesn’t tell Faith about immediately that Giles’ soul belongs to Eyghon. Gage has Angel and Faith considering Angel is better than Spike and both treating and regarding Spike relatively poorly.

I remember something being said of Joss giving Gage a lot of notes or whatever about Giles’ family and the history there. So, for the most part, Vin and Sophie and the grandmother is Joss’ stuff. But Gage has done the Giles’ family stuff well.

And he did the Drusilla stuff well. The Drusilla stuff is the highlight of post-BtVS S8. And one of the reasons is Angel is guilty about what he did to Dru. He’s guilty that she’s insane again even though he only killed the Lorophage demon to save Faith (and then himself).

________________________________________________

* Kathy in “Living Conditions” (4.02) wasn’t slowly turning Buffy into a vampire.

Buffy is the Slayer and has a demon spirit inside her; so, her circumstances aren’t those of a normal human.

Even the “boy without a soul” could have simply been someone who was pure evil. About nothing suggests removing a soul from a human wouldn’t kill the human. Kathy never took all of Buffy’s soul.

Maggie
31-03-13, 09:55 AM
I'm not sure how we can have a conversation. When Gage says things that are, shall we say, inconvenient to your position, you unilaterally rewrite what he says. To wit, I read you as saying:

* He didn't mean to say Angel, he meant to say Liam.
* When he says neither one being, nor two, he means two, and definitely not one.

I'll stick with what the man says. In bold, because I thought it rocked:

So I don’t think you can say Angelus and Angel are completely separate beings, but they’re not the same being…Angelus is Angel’s dark side without the good parts.

If reading around/rewriting is what it takes for things to work with you, feel free to read around/rewrite. I only opened up this conversation to say that Gage says what I think, and that's still the case. And so I still wave at you.

Happy Easter! The Lord is risen!!!

janas
31-03-13, 01:28 PM
sybil


I know it’s totally stupid, but I have zero understanding why Harmony plays out so large in the life of Angel, except some weird hope she is going to “grow herself a soul?”

She was already working at Wolfram and Hart before Angel was hired..

I do not want to be finicky (pedantic) or create controversy, but it is good to remember that Harmony was not already working at Wolfram and Hart before Angel was hired.
She was hired by Wesley as secretary Angel's, I believe Wesley has thought of doing a favor for Angel (maybe because she was friends with Cordelia)

Angel: But why... You, uh... (sighs)
Wesley: Well, I thought a familiar face would be just the thing in a place like this.
Angel: You turned evil a lot faster than I thought you would.

Conviction (Ats Season 5)

Probably this is also mentioned in Harm's Way (Ats Season 5)

..ok, hi.. and, Happy Easter to all

KingofCretins
31-03-13, 01:49 PM
Buffy in 9.01 wanted to have sex with him.

This is a very important thing to repeat a half dozen times in a post, lemme tell you. This is the kind of thing that's very, very important for everyone to be absolutely clear on. Even if it is in and of itself entirely speculative on the basis of Buffy flirting with him at the door. Flirting = wants to have sex. Check.


It’s clear if Buffy hadn’t shown up when she did Faith would have had sex with Spike (if he decided to have sex with her).

……………………………………..________
………………………………,.-’”……………….“~.,
………………………..,.-”……………………………..”-.,
…………………….,/………………………………………..”:,
…………………,?………………………………………………\,
………………./…………………………………………………..,}
……………../………………………………………………,:`^`..}
……………/……………………………………………,:”………/
…………..?…..__…………………………………..:`………../
…………./__.(…..”~-,_…………………………,:`………./
………../(_….”~,_……..”~,_………………..,:`…….._/
……….{.._$;_……”=,_…….”-,_…….,.-~-,},.~”;/….}
………..((…..*~_…….”=-._……”;,,./`…./”…………../
…,,,___.\`~,……”~.,………………..`…..}…………../
…………(….`=-,,…….`……………………(……;_,,-”
…………/.`~,……`-………………………….\……/\
………….\`~.*-,……………………………….|,./…..\,__
,,_……….}.>-._\……………………………..|…………..`=~-,
…..`=~-,_\_……`\,……………………………\
……………….`=~-,,.\,………………………….\
…………………………..`:,,………………………`\…………..__
……………………………….`=-,……………….,%`>–==“
…………………………………._\……….._,-%…….`\
……………………………..,<`.._|_,-&“…………….`


First off, what is in the comics is about all that’s important given Christos Gage isn’t an arbiter of canon.

Everybody drink!


* He said HIS take, not Joss Whedon’s take. Gage’s “take” on what “Angelus” and “Angel” are doesn’t mesh with how A&F Spike views them.

Spike doesn't view anyone, anyway. Spike views things how the writers deciding what he says, says he views them. You say this as though Spike has independent metaphysical substance. If what Spike says doesn't match with the authorial insight (and, again, don't commit the fallacy of acting like Gage or Chambliss or any of them are just out there recklessly flouting Joss' own wishes, that would be preposterous), it would just mean that Spike would be mistaken somehow.

Gage's exegesis on who Angel is (and really be extension Spike as well) sounds pretty cohesive.


She had sex with him in BtVS S7.

Any definite assertion that she did (or didn't for that matter) is fanon. That's per Joss; listen to the "Chosen" commentary. None of that "arbiter of canon" hoo-doo when you have Joss' own voice telling you that he wanted every fan to have their own version of what happened.

And any suggestion that they even might have slept together in Season 7 at some point other than that scene in "Chosen" is just laughable.


Spike knows Buffy wants to have sex with him. His problems with Buffy have nothing to do with her willingness to have sex with him.

Everybody understand this now? Write it down. This is important stuff.


Wow, this is alarming. Gage doesn’t even remember what’s in A&F.[quote]

Or he's implicitly refuting your interpretation of the story? For someone always pointing out that the writers aren't arbiter of canon, you spend a lot of time telling the writers that they are wrong, as though you have the test answer key. The food chain for canon goes from Joss > people Joss picked to work on his stuff > audience.

[quote]I’m very tempted to consider that Spike simply went to London to help with the Giles situation, did help, and eventually went back to San Francisco and take everything else ‘with a grain of salt’.

You can have all the salt you want -- the events are still canon. Cherry picking which scenes in which issue of each book are canon based solely on whether they dispute your interpretation of the characters is just petulant. You are not... drumroll... the arbiter of canon.


This is extremely unprofessional and careless of Dark Horse. The Spike miniseries should have been written and drawn before Gage even started writing the Angel-Spike-Faith interactions in A&F 9.19 and A&F 9.20.

That is not how the comic industry works at all, so it is hardly a requirement of professionalism.


* Harmony obviously still has feelings for Spike. Now she’s willing to be chained up for him.

The only feelings for him that takes are the ones in her nether regions.


* Spike wouldn’t consider Harmony “a higher class of partner” than Morgan unless he considers Harmony’s Rules would somehow put Harmony as being superior to Morgan.

Harmony is an objectively more appealing person than Morgan is. Harmony is genuinely likeable and sincere in ways that Morgan has long since forgotten.


If Spike were shown to have ‘game’, he would have ended up having sex with them instead of what actually happens in the Issue. His only hurdle was to convince them he wouldn’t get “attached” to them.

Do you ever consider you spend way too much time on who is, isn't, would, wouldn't, or should be having sex with Spike?


For me, Andrew Chambliss has been getting unfair criticism on this Board and on SA. Chambliss signed on thinking he’d get to write Buffy/Spike and he probably didn’t think Willow was already going to be gone by 9.06 and not return until like 9.21. Chambliss has done well with what he has to work with.

BS. What can you say as fact to support that Chambliss took the job based on the promise of getting to write Buffy/Spike as an ongoing "Something Blue" redux or something? Or that he wouldn't taken it without that? Or that he wasn't given a basic layout of the plot in the course of being offered the job by his friend and colleague Joss Whedon? You have none. No facts.

Jack Shaftoe
31-03-13, 03:18 PM
I'm not sure how we can have a conversation. When Gage says things that are, shall we say, inconvenient to your position, you unilaterally rewrite what he says.

But see, Gage isn't an arbiter of canon! We are clear about that, right? Right!?


Buffy in 9.01 wanted to have sex with him. When she thought she was pregnant, she seriously considering running off with him. She left clothing and such on his bugship. She clearly wants to be with him.

So in other words you are saying that Spike is an idiot because he doesn't see something that is so obvious, right? :) Or maybe, just maybe, your reading of the text that is always and forever along the lines of "Spike is more irresistible than RJ's letterman jacket" is slightly off-target? Just a bit.


Spike forms relationships with demons because he can more relate to someone like Drusilla, Harmony, Buffy (she has a demon spirit inside her), and Spider than he can to a non-supernatural human.

Spike relates to Harmony? That's news to me, unless by relate you mean "f*cks and leaves"...


Over in AtS, Angel’s only the leader because the Powers That Be made him their champion and the Fang Gang needed money.

Why do you always have to twist canon into pretzels just because you don't like certain characters? What you said is kind of like saying "Buffy is only the leader of the Scooby gang because she is the main character". Technically sort of true, but still missing the point big time. To use one of your favourite phrases, it's "offensive" for Wesley, Cordelia and the rest to imply they only followed Angel because he paid them and some deity picked him. He didn't pay them nearly enough to justly the constant risk for their survival and none of them seem to be that big of fans of the powers that be as to follow a (supposedly) incompetent leader just because the powers had picked him.


The Scoobies didn’t charge people. Spike had problem with it and says so in “In the Dark”

Spike, the guy who hasn't worked a day in his life is hardly in a position to lecture anyone about the way the earn their livelihood, you know.


What is offensive about the Willow thing is Angel being able to do that to someone who’s a lesbian, never seemed attracted to Angel and who still on some level hated Angel.

What's being a lesbian have to do with it if it's a mystical power that works on everybody? Seriously. I didn't like seeing this happen but mostly because it was a silly contrivance that came out of nowhere, it's not offensive at all, IMO. Is Xander being under Dracula's thrall offensive somehow since Xander is heterosexual and Dracula is a man?


If Spike were shown to have ‘game’, he would have ended up having sex with them instead of what actually happens in the Issue.

You do realize somebody might "have game" and still not be irresistible to absolutely everybody?

Vampire in Rug
01-04-13, 01:44 AM
Honestly, I don't feel fans have been all that hard on Gage. Back in the beginning when he was fresh off the boat, everyone was YAY!!!1! impressed with the first few issues of A&F.

Chambliss has been the one getting the hard knocks when it comes to writing. Gage has been getting a free pass, barring TERRIBLE story turns like Angel biting Willow into orgasmic submission.

Disagree. I think that large chunks of the audience has been very unfair to Gage. Many agree that A&F is the best Buffyverse series being published at the moment. Yet each month, the discussion gets diluted by the same sarcastic criticisms from the same people who were never willing to give this book a chance to begin with. Personally, I think that of the four Buffyverse titles that have been published this season, A&F is the best. Yet if you check the threads, you'll find that it's the title that gets the most criticism, sarcasm and sometimes spam.

As for Willow being "bitten into orgasmic submission", I agree that it was a pretty weak and convenient way for Dark Willow to be defeated, but lets not pretend that it was sexualized. Pleasure does not *have* to mean sexual pleasure.


Chambliss has been raked across the coals, whereas Gage's A&F has been mostly treated as the only worthwhile reading for Season 9. I can only think of a few fans who've been consistently harsh on Gage's writing.

To be fair, Chambliss has been raked across the coals largely because Season 9, for the most part, has been pretty terrible.

When you compare Season 9 to A&F, so many things in A&F are (IMO) simply done much better. The villians in A&F are better. The OC's in A&F are better. The plot in A&F, while less ambitious, has been tighter. I realize that this basically boils down to opinion, but I feel that A&F is simply a better story than Season 9, so I don't think it's in any way unfair when Chambliss gets "raked across the coals" when he does some weak writing. God knows that Gage also gets raked across the coals when he writes something that the fandom objects to. If you look at the threads each month for A&F compared to Season 9, I really do feel that the criticism levelled at each book is disproportionate to the quality of each book, and that Gage's book has been treated pretty harshly. And they *type* of criticism in each book tends to be very different too. I think that A&F consistently receives more nasty and sarcastic criticism.


Harsh on perceived whitewashing? Yeah, that's something that's a fandom-wide event. But harsh on Gage as a writer? Nah.

I really do find it hard to take the perceived whitewashing complaints seriously a lot of the time. So many of the whitewashing complaints can be applied to other characters too, yet so many people act like this is a unique phenomenon where only Angel gets special treatment. That's not the case at all.

I think some of the complaints are pretty unreasonable too. Gage didn't write Season 8. It's not his fault that Angel spent a year betraying and undermining Buffy. A lot of people seem to want A&F to be the coda for the "Twilight" plot of season 8, and for A&F to focus solely on Angel's culpability for Twilight rather than allowing the book the freedom to tell its own story. While I do agree that it's important for the story to acknowledge what came before, I think a point does come where you have to be willing to *move on* from Twilight, and if you're unable to do that then you may as well stop reading because you're never going to be satisfied with the book.

If you're unable to forgive Hal Jordan for all the horrible shit he did when he was Paralax, then you may as well give up on Green Lantern. I don't want to read a story about a character being flagellated or punished for 20+ issues because of a plot that happened years ago, especially not for the sake of a plot as terrible as the Twilight-universe-birthing crap. If you consider the stuff Hal Jordan did as Paralax to be truly unforgivable, and you can't look at the character ever again without feeling disgust then I'd say it's time to move on and read another book. Because eventually, the plot of Green Lantern has to move forward and deal with new stuff. And if you're unwilling to give the writers any sort of wiggle room to make the character marketable again, then I really don't think that there is anything they could do with their writing to please you.


He pretty much got handed the "you can stay" award right out the gate and it still hasn't been retracted even after the gross portrayal of Willow, nor the disappointingly regressive portrayal of Spike.

I will grant you that his portrayal of Spike was Flanderized to the point where I had trouble taking it seriously. I think Gage is a good writer, but his Spike voice is terrible. Thankfully Spike was only a guest character, so it's not going to harm my enjoyment of the overall series too much.



The book is teemed full of sexist crap, sure, but he hasn't been vilified for anything.

Not gonna pretend that the book is perfect, but I find that a lot of the "sexist crap" comes from the audience's reading and interpretation rather than the book itself. A few pages ago in this thread we saw that there is at least one person who chose to interpret child molestation into issue #1, I don't think this is something that Gage can really be blamed for if people insist on seeing stuff like this in the book. If you look hard enough, I'm sure you could find equally offensive "sexist crap" in the Buffy title too, or any story for that matter. I recall complaints that the A&F book is also racially offensive and I find that pretty hard to take seriously too. Don't get me wrong, I think that some of the complaints about sexism *are* legitimate. Then again, I think some of the complaints are simply fans looking for things to be offended over because that's a pretty common internet trend these days. I don't wanna sound like I'm dismissing *all* complaints about this book. Believe me, I think that while the book is good, there are still plenty of areas where it should have improved. But I can't pretend to take seriously some of the complaints, especially the ones that the audience has brought to the table instead of giving the book a fair reading.


Whenever A&F is critiqued, it's always in language referencing the ~issue or the title. There's not a lot of behind-the-scenes consideration for Gage as a writer, meaning there's not a lot of expectations for him as a writer, either. It's remarkably impersonal.

I somewhat agree here, and I am glad that Gage hasn't been the target of some of the more horrible crap that was directed at Scott Allie when season 8 was being published.



Part of the reason Gage has gotten a free pass is because he's not being compared to Joss as much. There's less expectations of Joss factor. So there's less disappointment in the absence of Joss with A&F as opposed to the Buffy title. It means Gage has gotten the easier hand to play.

It's a double edged sword. BtVS has always mattered to Joss more than AtS or A&F. Meaning that Joss's level of involvement and input is likely to be greater in season 9 than it is in A&F. I've seen Joss get blamed for stuff in season 9 more than I've seen him get blamed for A&F, so I think that Chambliss get so "share" his blame with Joss more than Gage gets to. Hell, we've got one person here who thinks that A&F is non-canon and that Joss is barely involved.

The fandom also tends to care more about BtVS than AtS or A&F. Have a look at the number of threads in each section, for both the shows and the comics. I'd argue that with BtVS, Chambliss had a head start and arguably had the greater potential for the audience to give a crap from the beginning. Buffy is a more popular and marketable character than Faith. People tend to like Spike more than Angel. People give a crap about Xander and Dawn more than they do about Alistair or the aunts. I think it's a credit to Gage's writing that he started out with a less ambitious project, and was still able to write the better book. Yeah, I agree that Gage's hand was "safer" because less people care about A&F, but again, it's a double edged sword and certainly Chambliss had some storytelling advantages that Gage did not have.



If anything, I think Gage gets too much credit for writing "GREAT PLOT OMG THINGS HAPPENED!!1!"


I think you're underselling how important "things happening" can actually be for a good story. In regards to "things happening" in the story, I think Chambliss would do well to take a leaf out of Gage's book.



Spike knows that he’s the one who left Buffy. He did this in “Chosen” (7.22), after “Destiny” (A 5.08) he decided not to go back to her, he left after 8.39, and he left again after 9.10. Spike knows he can be in a relationship with Buffy.


Then why isn't Spike in a relationship with Buffy? What we saw in the actual issues is that Spike saw that Buffy wanted "normal" and that's not Spike. There were several scenes that enforced this. No, Spike can not just show back up in San Fran and have Buffy at a moment's notice because that's what HE wants.


brought that up in “Dirty Girls” (7.18), got into bed with him, and ‘emphasized’ her figure to him. It’s clear if Buffy hadn’t shown up when she did Faith would have had sex with Spike (if he decided to have sex with her).

Uh, no it was not "clear" that they were on the verge of sex until Buffy walked in. That is YOUR interpretation, not a canonical fact. And I don't recall them being *in* bed, I think that they were both sitting *on* the bed, because there was nowhere else to sit most likely. I don't recall seeing any chairs in the basement. They were fully clothed and simply sharing a smoke and a chat. At best they were mildly flirting, I don't think that Faith was begging for sex with him if only he was willing to bless her with such a gift...


A ‘shipper is simply someone who prefers one relationship (or wants one relationship) over another relationship.

I think that is oversimplifying it to say the least. I'm not invested in Buffy/Dowling, but I would still prefer it to Buffy/Dawn. Does that make me a shipper?


First off, what is in the comics is about all that’s important given Christos Gage isn’t an arbiter of canon.

*drinks up*

Just out of curiosity, why did you submit questions for the Q&A if you consider yourself a more of an authority on canon than Christos Gage? Shouldn't you be answering questions for him instead? In the past you've said that his opinions are "immaterial" and can/should be dismissed. So I have to wonder why when a Q&A was opened that you would even care what he's got to say?


Fourth, he comes up with this ‘win-win situation’ evasion by saying Spike saying something doesn’t necessarily mean he means what he says and the same goes for Faith. Essentially, Gage is saying if one likes what Spike says, one can consider he actually meant what he says. If one doesn’t, one can consider he didn’t mean what he says. And the same goes for Faith.

I've seen you do that all the time. If you like what a character is saying, you'll take it as fact. If you don't like what a character is saying you'll assume that they are lying or mistaken or casting a spell off-screen.


Spike at-most was perhaps pushing Dowling to be with Buffy. He wasn’t pushing Buffy to be with Dowling. Spike was trying to get Buffy to think of Spike as her husband (thus the whole raising her child together and living together) and he wanted Buffy to leave San Francisco with him.

Why would you push another guy to go after your girl if you want her to think of you as her husband? That's a pretty weird thing to do. If Spike wasn't supportive of the Buffy/Dowling relationship, why would Spike even bring it up?


It almost seems Gage is implying that a reason Spike decided to go to London is to hook up with Faith.

I don't think that Gage is implying that at all.

Question: do you wish that Spike *did* have sex with Faith, and/or the aunts?


After 8.39, if Spike merely wanted some sex with Buffy he would have done that already (and maybe he has).

You're suggesting out of nowhere that Spike has been sleeping with Buffy off-screen between seasons 8 and 9. That doesn't surprise me in the least that you're suggesting this, and there is nothing to support that idea. Maybe Spike was having sex with Xander after 8.39 too.


Spike’s somehow forgotten “Chosen” (7.22), “Damage” (A 5.11), BtVS 9.01, etc.? She had sex with him in BtVS S7.

The most she's had sex with him while souled is once, and that's a maybe that is up to fan interpretation. Personally, I think they just stayed up talking and at most kissed during the fade to black. They weren't sleeping together throughout season 7 and they weren't sleeping together after 8.39.


Spike’s friends with Harmony? Since when? And if that’s true, why wouldn’t he have Harmony hook Buffy up with contacts so Buffy can get a good-paying job in the entertainment industry?

Spike is not the boss of Harmony. Buffy wouldn't accept charity from Harmony. Harmony likely doesn't want to be anywhere near Buffy. Just because Harmony is a celebrity that doesn't mean that Harmony can make Buffy a celebrity too.


I’m very tempted to consider that Spike simply went to London to help with the Giles situation, did help, and eventually went back to San Francisco and take everything else ‘with a grain of salt’.


I'm very tempted to consider that Angel and Spike fought over the Cup of Destiny and Angel ended up winning and I'll take the actual episode where Spike supposedly won with a grain of salt.

I hope you no longer tell other fans that they are not the arbiter of canon if you're going to cherry pick which scenes and issues from A&F are canon.



I remember only Drusilla being confirmed to have eaten babies. Darla offering a baby for Angel to eat doesn’t automatically mean she and he fed on babies.


Do you think that any of the fanged four at their most evil would be above eating babies/children? For that matter, is serving up a baby to be eaten any less evil than actually eating it yourself?


I take his words at face value. In A&F 9.19, Gage had Spike saying Angelus could kill the total of Spike, Faith, and 12 Slayers “in a moment.”

Well, maybe you should't take his words at face value. I'm sure I could think of plenty of examples from the show and comic where characters say something that is a figure of speech. I very much doubt that Gage thinks that Angelus can kill Spike, Faith, Alistair and a dozen Slayers. It's obviously a figure of speech.


A few disagreeing doesn’t change what is actually in the episode. Buffy clearly knew he was referring to his sleeping around.

Spike sleeping around was not in the episode. That is your *interpretation*. Not everyone agrees with you. You should stop acting like your interpretation is indisputable canon.


Morgan probably gave Spike a phone number.

Morgan giving him a phone number never happened on the page or was mentioned or implied, but hey, don't me stop you from blatantly making stuff up.


The Scoobies didn’t charge people. Spike had problem with it and says so in “In the Dark” (A 1.03) and it’s not as if souled Spike is going to think better on that.

The scoobies didn't have the expenses that the fang gang did and they ran their operations very differently. I'll start a thread on this at some point.

I don't recall Spike, "having a problem" with Angel charging people for his services in "In the Dark", I honestly think you are making that one up. You're suggesting that soulless Spike was okay with killing people, but he'd draw the line at charging people for a job because that's just unethical? Really, who gives a crap what Spike thinks about Angel's job at that point?



The “IDW ongoing” isn’t canon. We don’t even know what from the stuff Brian Lynch and Juliet Landau wrote is canon.

Actually, every indication from Dark Horse is that if I want to put it into my own personal canon, I can, and they won't contradict it. Certainly they have never openly declared it to be non-canon.

cheryl4ba
01-04-13, 03:45 AM
Waves back at Maggie. I have to admit that this made me smile as I would have expected no less from you. Not to get into another big Angel/Angelus debate with you but let's have a closer look at what Gage actually said.

A vampire is created when the essence [or some part thereof] of a demon enters a dead human's body

The dead human is of course Liam.

But that vampire is not the demon's persona; nor is it the dead persons

No big surprise here. We were told early on that the demon will look like, walk like, talk like, and take on the personality traits of the dead human. Except that now the dead person's personality will be expressed and filtered through evil....so very obviously the personality isn't the personality of the demon ....the demon is borrowing from dead Liam....and the personality is also not the true personality of poor dead Liam because it is being being filtered through an evil lens.

It seems to be a new person that's kind of amalgam of the worst/least inhibited parts of the dead human and the demon. [Remember when Alternate Future Vampire Willow came back and real not yet gay Willow observed she was "kinda gay" and vampires have no connection to their human hosts and Angel was like, "Actually"....]

Still no new information here. The connection has always been that the demon incorporates the personality of the dead human and twists it with evil. But now for the best part.

So I don't think you can say Angelus and Angel are completely separate beings, but they're not the same being.

Nothing here that doesn't work for me. I'm not gonna get hung up on the word completely...they share a body after all...but they're not the same being. I'm more than happy with Gage's explanation and with the way it's been portrayed in the comics. I'm delighted that you too seem happy with the explanations given. I'm not sure how you square up Giles soul being the essence of Giles if Liam's soul is not the essence of Liam....or Angel/Angelus/ Giles...count em, three beings present in one body....but if it works for you then we're both good.

I loved this explanation and more than that I love that the canon in the comics matches what the PTB is saying cause lets face it, that isn't always the case. We go back to "Trust the tale not the teller" 101 and while I learned to wrap my mind around that concept a LONG LONG time ago, it is a nice and refreshing change when the two worlds mesh.

Having three different people inside Angel, rather than the usual two, apparently became more than even Angel could mentally handle and he becomes unable to even respond from the trauma. We know that was what was happening because at the moment Giles is removed, Angel is able to regain control of himself. I CAN NOT WAIT to see what happens now that Giles is out intact.

Kinda off topic but another thing that I loved about this storyline is that despite Angel's mistake of trust in Whitsler we now know that him killing Giles was not the worst thing that could have happened. In fact, as it turns out, it's kinda the best thing in the world to happen. For Giles. For Buffy and yes, even for Angel. No longer is Giles tied to his Ripper past in such a "your soul will suffer for eternity in hell" way. Quite literally, all this has saved him that fate. Angel has saved him. I would imagine that Buffy is going to be more than grateful. I know that I am.

Sorry for my poor manners. Waves to everyone! :)

KingofCretins
01-04-13, 04:03 AM
It's more the rule than the exception anymore -- author provides some insight contrary to deeply held and generally factual-argument-proof fan opinion, and his words are (at best) ignored or dismissed immediately or (at worst) completely papered over and declared to mean almost the exact opposite of what he said.

There's no ambiguity in the statement "Angelus is Angel’s dark side without the good parts". Taken as a whole, Gage is saying what we've pretty much always been told on the serious side of literary discussion of this character -- Angel and Angelus are "different people" only in the same way as "Bob" and "Bob when he's drinking" are.

It's never changed from day one -- the entire character collapses out of anything resembling coherent logic, design, or narrative drive if he's just two totally different entities when souled or unensouled. A redemption story without any culpability for which to seek it isn't compelling, it's absurd. It's not what they are doing, never has been, never will be.

cheryl4ba
01-04-13, 04:54 AM
It's more the rule than the exception anymore -- author provides some insight contrary to deeply held and generally factual-argument-proof fan opinion, and his words are (at best) ignored or dismissed immediately or (at worst) completely papered over and declared to mean almost the exact opposite of what he said.

There's no ambiguity in the statement "Angelus is Angel’s dark side without the good parts". Taken as a whole, Gage is saying what we've pretty much always been told on the serious side of literary discussion of this character -- Angel and Angelus are "different people" only in the same way as "Bob" and "Bob when he's drinking" are.

It's never changed from day one -- the entire character collapses out of anything resembling coherent logic, design, or narrative drive if he's just two totally different entities when souled or unensouled. A redemption story without any culpability for which to seek it isn't compelling, it's absurd. It's not what they are doing, never has been, never will be.

Hey King, Happy Easter.

As usual I believe we are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think that you can argue that the comic, which is everybody's favorite word CANON showed us three different (meaning not the same) beings inside Angel. Gage's interview pretty much summed up the same, although I can see if you take a comment out of context and pretty much ignore all the other comments that were also made, you might be able to come up with the "same person" theory. I can't follow you though. It would simply not make any sense to try based on what I have seen and now heard.

BUT we don't have to fight about it. If you can read the issue and take that away and it makes you happy? I say all the power to you.

I am still reeling with the revelation that Angel has saved Giles and something really really good came of his "mistake" afterall. These Angel comics for me having been nothing but the gravy train. So, at the end of the day, if you want to believe that Angel and Angelus are the same? Knock yourself out but that should go both ways. It would be highly appreciated if during those times that I am sharing pleasure in the text or interviews, comments, etc... it would be greatly appreciated if you added in with a little more than the usual insulting name calling remarks. Quite honestly, there is just no reason for it...unless you really don't believe what you're saying and can't stamp out the bitterness but even then, I might remind you. I don't write these comics, I just enjoy them.

Sky
01-04-13, 05:08 AM
On different entities theory, I am just going to link to this (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=574014&postcount=15). :xd

bonnaleah
01-04-13, 06:16 PM
I'm not sure how we can have a conversation. When Gage says things that are, shall we say, inconvenient to your position, you unilaterally rewrite what he says. To wit, I read you as saying:

* He didn't mean to say Angel, he meant to say Liam.
* When he says neither one being, nor two, he means two, and definitely not one.

I'll stick with what the man says. In bold, because I thought it rocked:

So I don’t think you can say Angelus and Angel are completely separate beings, but they’re not the same being…Angelus is Angel’s dark side without the good parts.

If reading around/rewriting is what it takes for things to work with you, feel free to read around/rewrite. I only opened up this conversation to say that Gage says what I think, and that's still the case. And so I still wave at you.

Well for what it's worth I emailed Christos Gage this morning and asked him if he had meant to say Angelus was the darker side of Liam rather than the darker side of Angel. He very quickly confirmed for me that Angel/Liam are the same person/being....which is something I have thought all along. Angel only came into being when Liam's soul was returned to the body. So I'm not rewriting anything...Angel/Liam are one being and Angelus is the other. Waving back.


Kinda off topic but another thing that I loved about this storyline is that despite Angel's mistake of trust in Whitsler we now know that him killing Giles was not the worst thing that could have happened. In fact, as it turns out, it's kinda the best thing in the world to happen. For Giles. For Buffy and yes, even for Angel. No longer is Giles tied to his Ripper past in such a "your soul will suffer for eternity in hell" way. Quite literally, all this has saved him that fate. Angel has saved him. I would imagine that Buffy is going to be more than grateful. I know that I am.

Pretty awesome, huh.

Maggie
01-04-13, 06:35 PM
Color me confused. Angel = Liam. Angelus = darker side of Angel <==> Angelus = darker side of Liam.

How do you get Angelus is a whole separate being from that? He's the darker side of Angel/Liam and one cannot say he's an entirely separate being.

But really let's drop it. You aren't going to ever grant this point, and I'm not interested in trying to have a discussion with someone who does not adhere to the same standard of logic and reason I use. (Not a diss; I'm sure your reason sounds reasonable to you -- it just sounds like 2+2 = 5 to me, and that makes for impossible conversation). I'll have to settle for the fact that everyone on this board who isn't a Bangel sees it my way.

dorotea
01-04-13, 07:11 PM
Color me confused. Angel = Liam. Angelus = darker side of Angel <==> Angelus = darker side of Liam.

How do you get Angelus is a whole separate being from that? He's the darker side of Angel/Liam and one cannot say he's an entirely separate being.

I realize that I fall into a category of 'Bangel' so my opinion does not count, but Maggie you've completely omitted the *demon* in this logical diagram.

That same entity who came out in Pylea in its purest form and took over.

And to go back to Gage's original explanation that is defferent from your diagram

Angelus == vampire demon + darker side of human Liam.

Angel == a soul that suppresses the demon and manages the darker instincts of the human side + human Liam.

Meaning that a soul is a moral essence as well as control center. Without a soul a human is just a vessel of primal instincts and base desires. Add a demon to this mix - and you get something extremely nasty - possessed of blood lust and counting humans as not his species.

Add a soul - and if it is strong enough it takes over and the demon is beaten into submission and forced from controlling the body.

It does not mean that various combinations of weaker demon, weaker soul , less strong original human personality, 'a chip in the head controlling base instincts superficially', etc etc are not possible.

Still the basic combo is +/- soul (essence or moral control center). And I don't think one has to be a Bangel to not see my logic here. We Bangels are different people too. ;)


PS

Besides, if one ignores the demon that is in full control - how the slaughter of vampire little children can be justified ? Do we have to assume that kids like Collin, Holtz' daughter, a family of kids in Cleveland etc were all the same person as the original human children ? And that their original 'inner badness' was so bad that it allowed for their burning /staking ?

bonnaleah
01-04-13, 08:02 PM
Color me confused. Angel = Liam. Angelus = darker side of Angel <==> Angelus = darker side of Liam.

Angel = Liam.....Angel came into being after Liam's soul was put into the body that was already being occupied by Angelus.

Angelus =essence of demon and worst/least inhibited parts of Liam. [ the amalgam that Gage explained.] Angel hasn't shown up yet and won't for 150 more years so he is not yet in the equasion. Taking it a step further at this point in time to point out that if Angel/Angelus were the same being as you believe then Gage's amalgam wouldn't make sense and Angelus would be getting the dark side from himself.

Angelus= darker side of Angel.......Angel is really Liam because of Liam's soul being returned to the body, so Angel with a soul is really Liam. Gage also told me that Angel just has a couple centuries more life experience, and that Liam was an irresponsible young wastrel but he had to have had some good qualities in there. And this is consisrent with Gage's statements about Souless Spike getting more of William's good parts than bad.


Souless vampire Spike is an amalgam of the demon essence and William's worst/least inhibited traits. But for some unknown reason souless Spike also seemed to have more of William's good qualities too. Gage speculates that Maybe William's bad parts were more tied in with his good parts. William's good and bad is in the mix here along with the demon essence.


Souless vampire Angelus is an amalgam of the demon essence and Liam's worst/least inhibited parts. Unlike vampire Spike, Angelus doesn't get any of the good parts of Liam that Gage says he had to have had until the soul of Liam is added to the mix.


How do you get Angelus is a whole separate being from that? He's the darker side of Angel/Liam and one cannot say he's an entirely separate being.

The math is really not that complicated. Gage says that Angel and Angelus are not the same being but that Angel and Liam are the same being. If Angel and Liam are the same being then under your theory Angel/Angelus and Liam are all the same being and the amalgam explanation falls apart. But sure, I'm good to drop it. I only came on to debate because you were waving at me.:)

_Buffy_
01-04-13, 08:10 PM
I really love Spike. ANd as much as I want to see him with Buffy, as much I don't want to him to suffer anymore because of her :cutecry:. Here is my opinion about the 20 - th issue : I like Spike monologue in basement. He reveal so good his feelings. He is not over Buffy and he is very hurt. I just can't understand why he thinking that she prefers him without a soul. There is no point. The whole S 7 was exactly about how important to Buffy is Spike WITH a soul. I don't believe she likes him without a soul more. She would never be so close with him if he is a soulless like he was in S 4- S 6. And IMO Spike so desperate wants to moved on, to get over her, that's why he agreed to has a sex with Harmony. Angel thought that he makes him a favor. Well, it was very stupid idea But Spike was really desperate . He didn't make it out with Harmony because he needs sex. He did it because he just can't stand not to be with Buffy anymore.Every person has some limits . May be Spike is on the edge now with his unshared feelings for Buffy and he just wants to rid of them. He just wants to forget. It doesn't matter if there was harmony or another unknown girl. At least, Harmony is stupid enough to accept him again , despite all the humiliation which he give to her every time. Harmony means nothing to him . Angel know it, Spike know it, Harmony knows it. I may understand Spike . He did it, becuase he can't be with the woman he wants. Remember the episode " Sleeper " - he told Buffy - " I go out and talking with some people, becuase I can talking with you ....... " The same is now. He looks for solace and try to forget about Buffy. But anyway, it is not the way to forget about her. Only the time can heal him.:heart: May be this is the end of Spuffy. I don't know. I love Buffy and I love Spike too. And as much as I want to see them together, as much I don't want to see him suffer anymore.

cheryl4ba
01-04-13, 09:30 PM
I love Buffy and I love Spike too. And as much as I want to see them together, as much I don't to see him suffer anymore

I know how you feel about sitting back and watching your favorite characters suffer. I have been doing it for years with Buffy, Angel, Giles, Xander and Willow. I think in this Universe when you stop suffering, you die. Which is kinda sad when you really think about it. Here's hoping that eventually, ALL the characters get to keep some bits of lasting happiness.
I'm sorry that you seem so sad about this and just wanted you to know that I know how you feel.

_Buffy_
01-04-13, 11:18 PM
I know how you feel about sitting back and watching your favorite characters suffer. I have been doing it for years with Buffy, Angel, Giles, Xander and Willow. I think in this Universe when you stop suffering, you die. Which is kinda sad when you really think about it. Here's hoping that eventually, ALL the characters get to keep some bits of lasting happiness.
I'm sorry that you seem so sad about this and just wanted you to know that I know how you feel.


I suffer for Angel too, mostly in his own show. I know that this is off topic, but it was so unfair to him and Cordelia when they even didn't have a chance to start some intimate relationship. / because of this stupid plot - Cordelia being a high creature , blah, blah ... and because Angel doesn't have right to be happy/ I suffer for Buffy when Joyce makes Angel to leave her just before The Prom. I suffer for Willow and Tara when Tara dies........ The examples, are so many as you said. But Spike is the top of the suffering to me . He has being through a lot, so much hopes, so much pain, he changes only because of her - he becomes good even before the soul and in the end - he has nothing. Honestly, I can't stand it anymore. Sometimes I am glad that there are so good fanfictions, frankly. I hate to read that Spike was thinking that Buffy prefers him without a soul. I can't imagine that the whole S 7 was for nothing. I don't have a word to describe how bad I am feel because of Spike , because the fact they didn't give him a chance to be happy with her. Because of all of the male characters he deserves it the most.

Maggie
01-04-13, 11:36 PM
The math is really not that complicated. Gage says that Angel and Angelus are not the same being but that Angel and Liam are the same being.

Gage is tweeting that's not correct. He's saying he emailed you to say exactly the same thing he said in the Q&A:

I meant to say the same thing I did in the Slayalive Q&A. There's a person. (Liam.) He is sired by a vampire...cont

a demon essence enters Liam's dead body and creates an amalgam of the demon and the host's worst qualities: Angelus.

So Liam/Angel (souled being) is not the same as Angelus (no soul) but they're not unrelated/separate either.

I've bolded the part you refuse to allow to inform your thinking on this. Parse that as you will. I think the plain meaning is that Angelus shares with Angel/Liam the dark qualities of Angel/Liam.

But be clear about the first tweet on the subject: Gage meant for his reply to you to be a reiteration of what he already said in the Q&A. And that means that you continue to be flat wrong when you assert that Gage thinks that Angelus is entirely separate from Liam/Angel. Gage not only clearly says he thinks they aren't unrelated/separate, he clearly identifies the reason for thinking there's a connection: they all share the dark parts of Liam/Angel.

ETA: Also, you are misquoting/misinterpreting me in your last post. I do not think Angelus/Angel are the same being. For the millionth time, I think Angelus is Angel's dark side. Since Angel is more than just his dark side, I obviously don't think he's identical with Angelus.

bonnaleah
02-04-13, 02:07 AM
Gage is tweeting that's not correct. He's saying he emailed you to say exactly the same thing he said in the Q&A:

I meant to say the same thing I did in the Slayalive Q&A. There's a person. (Liam.) He is sired by a vampire...cont

a demon essence enters Liam's dead body and creates an amalgam of the demon and the host's worst qualities: Angelus.

So Liam/Angel (souled being) is not the same as Angelus (no soul) but they're not unrelated/separate either.

I've bolded the part you refuse to allow to inform your thinking on this. Parse that as you will. I think the plain meaning is that Angelus shares with Angel/Liam the dark qualities of Angel/Liam.



Well of course he meant the same thing he said in the Q&A. I'm not the one having trouble understanding what he said. That's kinda the whole point. The unsouled vampires are an amalgam of the demon essence and the bad traits of the dead human....that's what Gage said in the Q&A, and that's what I said in my previous post.


But be clear about the first tweet on the subject: Gage meant for his reply to you to be a reiteration of what he already said in the Q&A. And that means that you continue to be flat wrong when you assert that Gage thinks that Angelus is entirely separate from Liam/Angel. Gage not only clearly says he thinks they aren't unrelated/separate, he clearly identifies the reason for thinking there's a connection: they all share the dark parts of Liam/Angel.

To be clear Maggie, I don't have any problem understanding the English language and I don't have a problem understanding Gage's reply to me, so please don't try to interpret emails that you have never seen. Gage said in the Q&A that Angel/Angelus weren't completely separate and I believe I said at the time that I didn't have a problem with the word completely. Of course there is a connection because of Liam. Gage also said that Angel and Angelus were not the same being. I don't have a problem understanding any of that so please don't misrepresent my position. I tried in my previous post to show how they are connected even though they are different beings.


You accused me of re-writing Gage's words about Angelus being the dark side of Angel....


I'm not sure how we can have a conversation. When Gage says things that are, shall we say, inconvenient to your position, you unilaterally rewrite what he says. To wit, I read you as saying:

* He didn't mean to say Angel, he meant to say Liam.
* When he says neither one being, nor two, he means two, and definitely not one.


I figured Gage had mis-spoke and that he had meant to say Angelus was the dark side of Liam. So I emailed him and asked him and he very graciously told me that Angel and Liam were the same person/same being....that Liam had good parts too. I don't call that re-writing.

I really do not appreciate Georgia misrepresenting what I said he said...and hounding him to try and get the answer she wanted. I never said that Gage told me Angel/Liam were unrelated to Angelus...and I certainly never claimed to be his spokeman. I drew some very logical conclusions from both his Q&A answers and his email exchange with me and I think you are trying to make it more difficult than it is. I mean you do the math.


ETA: Also, you are misquoting/misinterpreting me in your last post. I do not think Angelus/Angel are the same being.

Really? Then you've changed your position on the single/double entity question? Great!


For the millionth time, I think Angelus is Angel's dark side. Since Angel is more than just his dark side, I obviously don't think he's identical with Angelus.

Whatever. Like I said in the beginning, I'm good with everything Gage has said. I feel bad that he has been drug into this because he was nice enough to answer a question for me. So I'm done. I'm just gonna set back and watch the rest of the season unfold.

vampmogs
02-04-13, 02:22 AM
Of course, this could all be solved quite easily by pointing out – again – that a person cannot seek "redemption" for the crimes that somebody else committed. All these discussions tend to skirt around that fact even though it's probably the most important component of Angel's whole character, as well as it pretty much being the cornerstone of his entire show. You cannot atone for somebody else's crimes, you cannot make amends for somebody else's crimes, you cannot seek redemption for somebody else's crimes, and it'd be ridiculous for the gypsies to punish Angel for somebody else's crimes. If you have even the most basic comprehension of what those concepts mean then you’ll realise that Angel and Angelus have to be the same guy for his story to even make sense. There are no if’s or but’s about it. Either his character & show makes sense or they don’t. Take your pick.

To quote Amends;

BUFFY
Angel, you have the power to do real good, to make amends. But if you die now then all that you ever were was a monster

That’s the power of Angel’s story. That he can use his power to make amends and if he doesn’t – then all he’ll ever be is just a monster. We can debate Gage's words all day, we can debate the soul mythology, but it's all meaningless when you ignore the big elephant in the room. Angel seeks atonement which is an admission that he has something needing atoning for. When you acknowledge that it renders the rest of these discussions pretty meaningless. These debates just side-step the obvious and I guess it's unsurprising that it's something people want to avoid.

I'll leave it with Doyle's mission statement for the entire show back in the first episode of AtS;

DOYLE
Once upon a time there was a vampire. And he was the meanest vampire in all the land. All the other vampires were afraid of him, he was such a - bastard. Then one day he’s cursed by gypsies. (Flashback to old gypsy lady speaking the curse) They restore his human soul. And all of a sudden he is mad with guilt. You know: What have I done?? You know, he’s freaked. Yeah, well, it’s a fairly dull tale. It needs a little sex, is my feeling. So sure enough: enter the girl. Pretty little blonde thing, Vampire Slayer by trade. And our vampire falls madly in love with her. Eventually the two of them, - well, they get fleshy with one another. Well, I guess the technical term is perfect happiness. But when our boy gets there he goes bad again. He kills again. It’s ugly. So when he gets his soul back for the second time, he figures hey, he can’t be any where near Miss young puppy eyes without endangering them both. So what does he do? He takes off. Goes to LA. To fight evil - and atone for his crimes. He’s a shadow, - a faceless champion of the hapless human race. Say you wouldn’t have a beer of any kind in here, would you?

We're talking about ONE guy's history and ONE guy seeking ATONEMENT for HIS crimes. That's the Whedon-penned breakdown of Angel's story and the mission statement for his entire show. The entire premise of AtS is built on the idea that Angel has to make up for the things he did.

Dipstick
02-04-13, 02:25 AM
It's quite possible. I guess I'm just not expecting them to resurrect Giles because I think the reasons Joss gave for killing him off are still there. Of course, if he was resurrected it'd certainly give him one hell of a story, so...

I seem to recall some story that one of the comics writers was broken up about Giles dying and Joss said that killing Giles isn't about getting rid of Giles. It's about giving him a new story.

If that Etch-a-Sketch hasn't changed, I'd imagine that Giles WILL be resurrected- particularly since IMO the flashbacks have been exhausted.



Kinda off topic but another thing that I loved about this storyline is that despite Angel's mistake of trust in Whitsler we now know that him killing Giles was not the worst thing that could have happened. In fact, as it turns out, it's kinda the best thing in the world to happen. For Giles. For Buffy and yes, even for Angel. No longer is Giles tied to his Ripper past in such a "your soul will suffer for eternity in hell" way. Quite literally, all this has saved him that fate. Angel has saved him. I would imagine that Buffy is going to be more than grateful. I know that I am.

This is part offensive delusion and part sensible analysis that is hard to deny. I'm flummoxed. (Leaving it open for someone to ask me what's the flum.)

I'd never give Angel credit for *killing* Giles so folks that matter can find about the Eyghon part of Giles's afterlife. I don't like "coulda woulda shoulda" analysis but I'd rather hold out hope that someone could have solved this problem for Giles if he had a longer lifespan without the whole neck snapping stuff than to pin a medal on Angel's chest for killing Giles.

Still, there's quite a bit to be said for Angel and Faith NOT letting Dead Gileses Lie. For caring about having Giles back instead of retreating into Giles's mansion and patting themselves on the back with photogenic pity ever so often.

Still, this quote of Gage indicates that there will be consequences of some kind- while at the same time placing this resurrection on a higher level than Buffy's resurrection (and IMO, indicating to me that Giles WILL be resurrected).

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=43754



Well, they think they can make it work. It's an open question whether that's foolishness, arrogance, or selfish desperation; they just want him back that badly. But a new light has been shed on it with the revelation in recent issues that the biggest part of Giles' soul was the property of the demon Eyghon. So it's not like they're pulling him out of heaven, as with Buffy. If they did nothing, he remains the plaything of a horrible monster. That said, they are planning to try to return him to life, not just sent his soul to its reward, so there is most certainly risk. This will definitely be addressed very soon.

However, I'm not sure if the consequences will be something big where Giles's quality of life is measurably lowered. Or the "consequences" is Giles is depressed that Faith and Angel didn't find someway of killing him so he could go to heaven or have peace from this topsy turvy thing we call life and Giles feuds with Faith and Angel over it. It's an open question but I do think that a A&F Season 2 (or possible A & F & G Season 1) about Giles, Faith and Angel fighting about why Faith and Angel couldn't leave their meddling with Giles's afterlife JUST to the extent of rescuing him from Egyhon is JUST the Buffyverse's flavor of stupid.

cheryl4ba
02-04-13, 03:33 AM
Gage is tweeting that's not correct. He's saying he emailed you to say exactly the same thing he said in the Q&A:

I meant to say the same thing I did in the Slayalive Q&A. There's a person. (Liam.) He is sired by a vampire...cont

a demon essence enters Liam's dead body and creates an amalgam of the demon and the host's worst qualities: Angelus.

So Liam/Angel (souled being) is not the same as Angelus (no soul) but they're not unrelated/separate either.

I've bolded the part you refuse to allow to inform your thinking on this. Parse that as you will. I think the plain meaning is that Angelus shares with Angel/Liam the dark qualities of Angel/Liam.

But be clear about the first tweet on the subject: Gage meant for his reply to you to be a reiteration of what he already said in the Q&A. And that means that you continue to be flat wrong when you assert that Gage thinks that Angelus is entirely separate from Liam/Angel. Gage not only clearly says he thinks they aren't unrelated/separate, he clearly identifies the reason for thinking there's a connection: they all share the dark parts of Liam/Angel.

ETA: Also, you are misquoting/misinterpreting me in your last post. I do not think Angelus/Angel are the same being. For the millionth time, I think Angelus is Angel's dark side. Since Angel is more than just his dark side, I obviously don't think he's identical with Angelus.

Reading this is like walking into a bizzaro world because what is written here is EXACTLY what was quoted as the clarification. So Liam/Angel (souled being) is not the same as Angelus (no soul) but they're not unrelated/separate either.


B.I.N.G.O, B.I.N.G.O, B.I.N.G.O and bingo was his name-O-

Thankfully Gage reads this stuff himself and could see that no misrepresentation actually took place.

vampmogs
02-04-13, 03:36 AM
I seem to recall some story that one of the comics writers was broken up about Giles dying and Joss said that killing Giles isn't about getting rid of Giles. It's about giving him a new story.

I think it was Jeanty who was really upset and tried to convince Joss to change his mind. If memory serves, Joss said two things about Giles' death;

1) That Giles no longer felt relevant but that by killing him he would become relevant again. This has been true of A&F when Giles has arguably got a lot more story since being dead than he has in years.

2) That Joss didn't feel Giles' character transitioned well to the comic medium. I can't remember the exact quote but he said that Giles' relied a lot on ASH's delivery of his lines (I think he even used the word "sexy") and that something was missing. I don't necessarily agree with that because at the risk of sounding like a Whedon-fanboy, I think Joss captured him well in TLWY ("Nobody's exactly giggling on this side of the fence either") but I do agree he comes across far more stilted and polished in the comics. How much of that is the medium and how much of it is poor writing is up to the fan I guess.

It's the latter I was referring to when I said the circumstances surrounding Giles' death haven't really changed. If Joss didn't feel Giles flourished in this medium and that's at least partially the reason for killing him off, what would have changed his mind?

Maggie
02-04-13, 03:43 AM
I feel bad that he has been drug into this because he was nice enough to answer a question for me. So I'm done. I'm just gonna set back and watch the rest of the season unfold.

Well, you are the one who did the dragging... and to no purpose. It was the case that Gage said that Angelus is Angel/Liam's darkside. It's still the case. He keeps saying the same thing: you can't pretend they are two entirely separate being. Meanwhile, you've caused the poor guy a lot of headache -- and it's too bad. His Q&A is a model of generosity/insight, and it'd be too bad if he walks away with a bad taste in his mouth because you tried to enlist him in support of your quixotic attempt to "prove" that Angelus has nothing whatsoever to do with Angel. Yes, Georgia followed up for clarification, but she wouldn't have had to do that if you hadn't trotted out your personal interpretation of a private correspondence as evidence that Gage didn't really mean what he said in the Q&A. But he's since repeated it -- and your take still completely disregards his words. Repeat after me: Angel and Angelus can NOT be viewed as entirely separate because Angelus is an amalgam of the demon and Angel/liam's dark side. That's the bottom line. I'm sorry it doesn't work for you, but there it is in plain easy-to-understand English.

And as Vamps has ably reminded you, for the thousandth time, -- Angel's story makes no sense whatsoever if it's not the case that Angelus embodies something that is part of Angel's dark side.

cheryl4ba
02-04-13, 03:58 AM
Well, you are the one who did the dragging... and to no purpose. It was the case that Gage said that Angelus is Angel/Liam's darkside. It's still the case. He keeps saying the same thing: you can't pretend they are two entirely separate being. Meanwhile, you've caused the poor guy a lot of headache -- and it's too bad. His Q&A is a model of generosity/insight, and it'd be too bad if he walks away with a bad taste in his mouth because you tried to enlist him in support of your quixotic attempt to "prove" that Angelus has nothing whatsoever to do with Angel. Yes, Georgia followed up for clarification, but she wouldn't have had to do that if you hadn't trotted out your personal interpretation of a private correspondence as evidence that Gage didn't really mean what he said in the Q&A. But he's since repeated it -- and your take still completely disregards his words. Repeat after me: Angel and Angelus can NOT be viewed as entirely separate because Angelus is an amalgam of the demon and Angel/liam's dark side. That's the bottom line. I'm sorry it doesn't work for you, but there it is in plain easy-to-understand English.

And as Vamps has ably reminded you, for the thousandth time, -- Angel's story makes no sense whatsoever if it's not the case that Angelus embodies something that is part of Angel's dark side.

Lets be honest, that isn't why he walked away with a bad taste in his mouth, he started out saying he wasn't mad at anyone but then when the hounding did not cease, he said enough. All this drama was a good thing I think. Once again it shows the PTB how fans try to misrepresent other fans. He has read it Maggie. He knows that nobody misrepresented him. For everyone else, his messages about PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE are still up on his Twitter. Mr.Gage is a prince of a guy and doesn't deserve the harrassment. My word or his? I'll never tell.

I can't comment on what Vamp said a thousand times because I have him on ignore...but for what it's worth. Angel/Angelus/Liam's story makes perfect sense if you aren't trying to bastardize or blackwash him. Only when you try to back him into that tight false box does it become so confusing. Angel needs to atone for Angelus because the curse gave him all Angelus's memories, go back to season 1 of Buffy. It's laid out really nicely and not confusing at all. It is further explained in season 2 and 3 of Buffy.

Anyway, needed to clarify the drama and give my two cents on how unnessecary it was. Poor taste, imho.

KingofCretins
02-04-13, 04:03 AM
I think we had gotten about four total Q&As into Season 8 before I realized that "cause" questions were going to ruin the entire experience. Here, I still felt bad for calling him out on the Angel-invites-Harmony thing and him commenting on it.

I'm also having trouble imagining anyone ignoring Mogs of all people. Probably as grounded, civil, and at worst agreeably disagreeable poster a forum could ask for.

vampmogs
02-04-13, 04:12 AM
I'm also having trouble imagining anyone ignoring Mogs of all people. Probably as grounded, civil, and at worst agreeably disagreeable poster a forum could ask for.

Thanks for the kind words. As a B/A fan I take it as a blessing to be as disassociated as possible from some of my "peers" so it really doesn't bother me. Although, I do question anybody who feels the need to both repeatedly and publicly state who they have on ignore. Makes me doubt it to be honest. The lady doth protest too much ;)

cheryl4ba
02-04-13, 04:13 AM
I think we had gotten about four total Q&As into Season 8 before I realized that "cause" questions were going to ruin the entire experience. Here, I still felt bad for calling him out on the Angel-invites-Harmony thing and him commenting on it.

I'm also having trouble imagining anyone ignoring Mogs of all people. Probably as grounded, civil, and at worst agreeably disagreeable poster a forum could ask for.

Vamp and I don't get on well, it's a more pleasant experience all the way around, for both of us, to just ignore each other. He wouldn't be offended by that comment. He would agree.

KingofCretins
02-04-13, 04:25 AM
Thanks for the kind words. As a B/A fan I take it as a blessing to be as disassociated as possible from some of my "peers" so it really doesn't bother me. Although, I do question anybody who feels the need to both repeatedly and publicly state who they have on ignore. Makes me doubt it to be honest. Doth do protest too much ;)

Well, as one of the most contentious and impolitic a poster as a forum could ask for, I feel well positioned to measure the patience of others :)

Well done, btw, distilling the entire reason why all the metaphysical argument about Angel's soul or parsimony about Gage's or anyone else's words are a waste of time into that one pull quote from "Amends" -- "... then all you ever were is a monster" is simply untrue if whatever the bag of person that is called Angel is, isn't culpable for what the soulless version did. Not that he feels culpable but isn't really, but that he is genuinely responsible. Nothing about him makes sense or has purpose if that doesn't hold. Really doesn't matter whether the tachyon pulse was amplified by the deflector dish or not.

dorotea
02-04-13, 04:27 AM
I'm also having trouble imagining anyone ignoring Mogs of all people. Probably as grounded, civil, and at worst agreeably disagreeable poster a forum could ask for.

Lets just say I have problems with trying to digest the opinion of folks who - from my humble PoV - prefer to ignore abstract logic in favor of emotional component, and do it to the extent of contradicting themselves. I can understand when it done now and then, I can even get it when extreme shipping is involved. I cannot get it when it is random and out of the blue. Or maybe I had had to many hours of calculus in early ears of life. No offense meant.

Sky
02-04-13, 04:40 AM
Angel being two different entities doesn't make sense. To quote (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=563442&postcount=627) leyki...


So, if Angel is a different entity from Angelus, that also means that human!Darla is a different entity from vamp!Darla.
1)So, human Darla died when she got sired.
2)Vamp!Darla lived for 400 years, a demon inside her body, who also sired Angel who put a stake in her and killed her.
3)W&H bring back human!Darla from the dead, and she miraculously knows everything the vamp!Darla did, remembers everything, although she is a totally different entity. Even Angel is not surprised at all, how come human!Darla is able to remember him since human!Darla never actually met Liam or Angelus or Angel.
4)And then Darla gets sired again, and then another demon gets inside her body, and, again, miraculously, the second now demon remembers everything that human!Darla did and vamp!Darla did.
And Angel doesn't act surprise at all that now a totally new demon occupies the body of human!Darla and acts exactly like her.
5)And then Darla gets pregnant, a soul grows inside her body, turning her now into a totally different vampire, one with a soul, that has nothing to do with human!Darla, and nothing to do with vamp!Darla, and nothing to do with the 2nd time vamped!Darla, but still remembers and knows everything and acts completely like she is exactly the same person and Angel recognises her like one entity all the times, not like 4 different entities (human!Darla, vamp!Darla, 2nd time vamped!Darla, soul!Darla)

If you can make a sense out of this mess, then yes, Angel and Angelus are 2 totally different entities.

vampmogs
02-04-13, 04:55 AM
Well done, btw, distilling the entire reason why all the metaphysical argument about Angel's soul or parsimony about Gage's or anyone else's words are a waste of time into that one pull quote from "Amends" -- "... then all you ever were is a monster" is simply untrue if whatever the bag of person that is called Angel is, isn't culpable for what the soulless version did. Not that he feels culpable but isn't really, but that he is genuinely responsible. Nothing about him makes sense or has purpose if that doesn't hold. Really doesn't matter whether the tachyon pulse was amplified by the deflector dish or not.

Not to mention that Amends is clearly Whedon's riff on A Christmas Carol with Angel playing the role of Ebenezer Scrooge and The First as the ghosts who haunt him. If anyone's at all familiar with that story they'd know that it's kind of essential that it actually be Angel's past that's being shown to him and that Angel is learning something about himself. Obviously in the Buffyverse version The First is evil incarnate so it's trying to sway Angel to embrace the darkness within him rather than the 'christmas spirit' but Amends, just like ACC, relies very much on it being a tale about Angel and his life. If Angel/Angelus are two seperate identities than the episode is hollow and meaningless and Buffy's speech up on the hill is both nonsensical and deeply unfair (telling Angel he needs to make amends for something he didn't even do? Calling Angel a monster?).

It's just as true for AtS but I just remain puzzled that anybody can watch these episodes and get any emotional significance at all out of watching a man, supposedly, brooding over something that a completely different person did. It'd be like trying to base an entire series around Cordy, Willow, Giles and Joyce trying to "redeem" themselves for being possessed by the demon eggs in Bad Eggs, or watching Dawn self-flagellate for the remainder of S6 because a demon possessed her and made her attack the Scoobies with fire in Afterlife. It’d be ridiculous and that’s just as true about a show where Angel bases a whole mission around atoning for some other guy’s sins without anybody pointing out that you in fact cannot do that and that it’s both crazy and insufferable to watch him mope about it.

mike13z50
02-04-13, 05:49 AM
I can't comment on what Vamp said a thousand times because I have him on ignore...but for what it's worth. Angel/Angelus/Liam's story makes perfect sense if you aren't trying to bastardize or blackwash him. Only when you try to back him into that tight false box does it become so confusing. Angel needs to atone for Angelus because the curse gave him all Angelus's memories, go back to season 1 of Buffy. It's laid out really nicely and not confusing at all. It is further explained in season 2 and 3 of Buffy.

See, I don't think you have that exactly right, but you raise an important point that has been left out...the curse. Angel is not just Angelus with a soul, he also has a guilt curse. Everyone agrees that Liam was no hero or even a model of morality. I've come to think that the curse amplifies the guilt that Angel feels for crimes he commits with or without the soul.

The question of why Angel would feel guilty for the crimes commited by Angelus (while souless) has always bothered me. On the otherhand, if Angel and Angelus are the same being, then that would mean that Angel has the same desires that Angelus has, and just refrains to avoid the guilt.

My opinion is you take dead Liam+ vampire demon=Angelus.
Add Gypsy Curse + soul of Liam + 150 years of memory of murder+ 100years of solitude +Wistler's promise of redemption + Buffy's love= Angel the hero

Liam was a bad man who reveled in doing bad things. Angel is a bad man who tries to do good things. That is what makes him so interesting.

Maggie
02-04-13, 06:08 AM
Lets just say I have problems with trying to digest the opinion of folks who - from my humble PoV - prefer to ignore abstract logic in favor of emotional component, and do it to the extent of contradicting themselves. I can understand when it done now and then, I can even get it when extreme shipping is involved. I cannot get it when it is random and out of the blue. Or maybe I had had to many hours of calculus in early ears of life. No offense meant.

If the shoe fits...

I mean, (and I mean no more offense than you did) -- what logic is involved in saying that Angel has spent several years trying to atone for the crimes committed by some whole other alien being?

What logic is involved in saying that when Gage says that you can't say that Angel and Angelus are separate beings, he means they are separate?

What logic is involved in saying that when Gage says Angelus is Angel/Liam's dark side, he means that the only possible connection between them is that they share a body?

I haven't just taken calculus for years, I've taught it for years. I suppose that's why I keep getting drawn into this discussion. When people say that by logic and deduction they've concluded that 2 + 2 is 5, I just feel like a reply should be made.

The most gracious thing I can say is that we do not share a common sense of logic or reason. When there is such total incomprehension -- to the point where the position you and Bonnaleah defend reads to me like incoherent gibberish, and where you claim the same reaction in reading the analysis of the very many folks who share my view -- there is no point in discussion. It can only be ad hominem (veiled or explicit) because each side thinks the other is incoherent.

I will say that I like my chances for being on the side of the angels on this. Whereas the folks who side with you all have a very clearly expressed shipping preference, that is not the case of the folks who are ranged against you on this question. King is anti- both vamp ships; Vamps is more pro-Scoobie/Buffy than anything else, but likes B/A best of the ships. I'd add that even when I disagree with King and Vamps (which is often), I always understand what they are saying. I never read their arguments and think they are just totally making things up to defend an indefensible position that's held on shipping or other identifiable emotional grounds. Even when I do think that emotion is driving them to miss points that I think are obvious, I don't think they do anything that's the equivalent of saying that 2+2 is 5. But saying that when Gage says that Angelus is Angel's darkside means that Gage believes they are two entirely different beings, save that they share a body does strike me as just that big a whiff. I can't wrap my head around it.

Anyway, you will see it quite otherwise. And so it goes. But can we at least agree that there is no conversation possible because we disagree violently about what constitutes sound reason, logic, deduction, or textual analysis? Then perhaps we could lapse back to silence which is the only possible conversational stance between the camps.

I do regret having brought the subject up. I had thought that Gage's crystal clear statement would register, but it obviously has not. I won't make that mistake again.

Stoney
02-04-13, 09:02 AM
I see you saying 'bingo' here...


So Liam/Angel (souled being) is not the same as Angelus (no soul) but they're not unrelated/separate either.


...and yet still saying this...


Angel needs to atone for Angelus because the curse gave him all Angelus's memories...

...which makes sense if you think the only thing that links them is the shared memories. But that ignores this part...


Gage...
a demon essence enters Liam's dead body and creates an amalgam of the demon and the host's worst qualities: Angelus.

Talking as if they are just memories he is stuck with is separating them.

vamps is 100% correct that redemption* is not something you can seek for something someone else did.

The curse wasn't to curse an effectively innocent soul with someone else's crimes. It was a spell of restoration, to return something into the mix. Angel's conversations with Darla/Dru/Spike make little to no sense if Angel is only recounting someone else's memories and yet talking of them with ownership.

*theologically - atonement for guilt.




It's the latter I was referring to when I said the circumstances surrounding Giles' death haven't really changed. If Joss didn't feel Giles flourished in this medium and that's at least partially the reason for killing him off, what would have changed his mind?

I suppose it does give a catalyst or option for reinventing him slightly, maybe just in being more Ripper??

dorotea
02-04-13, 01:54 PM
The curse wasn't to curse an effectively innocent soul with someone else's crimes.

Actually, it was most effectively and exactly cast as a vengeance spell. Jenny's uncle states this exclusively. 'It is not about justice - it is about vengeance', after Jenny tells him how awful she finds the situation. The gypsies did cast a spell to punish an innocent soul - knowing that it will eventually merge with the memories of the body and will suffer for remembering what was done by the body in demons control. When Angel seeks redemption for the crime Angelus committed it is to alleviate the suffering that the soul endures as effect of the vengeance spell. He does not have to feel guilty - and he does so on his own accord. I always though Gage does a neat job of exploring this in Daddy Issues arc.

And I want to bring back my original point as well. If the being that is a vampire is effectively the same person as its human - then how do we to treat the slaughter of child vampires ? And how do we to treat the cunning cruelty of child vampires? Are we to assume that internal evilness of the small child is to blame to Collin's deeds as a vampire? What about the small girl vampire that almost cost Edna her life at age of 9 ? Was Faith guilty of slaughtering innocents at the beginning of her arc in Cleveland ?

Stoney
02-04-13, 02:28 PM
OK, so you are separating them and ignoring Gage saying Liam is in the amalgamated mix in Angelus by deciding that it is the memories of a separate being they share and nothing else, ok. Please can you tell me why Angel thinks that isn't true and talks to Spike/Dru/Darla as if he personally shares history with them then?

The motivation doesn't change the fact that it is a soul restoration spell. Plus, if it is vengeance then why the heck would they apply it to someone else, that wouldn’t be vengeance that would be letting Angelus off and punishing a random person, all that is is stupid.

As for child vampires, everyone has darker desires, even children. They bully and are selfish and often unable to understand/comprehend another person's feelings (if young enough). Arguably you can't get more selfish in motivations than a new born baby, it cries and it demands. So I would assume that the 9 year old was the vampire demon with the girl's worst qualities in the mix, as Gage describes, the same as any other vampire. Unfortunately it isn't practical, or probably possible, to ensoul all vamps to give them a chance at redemption. As is covered in Damage, vampire's kill innocent victims but no one is a saint that can't add a 'worst part' into the vamp mix humans are inherently flawed.

KingofCretins
02-04-13, 03:31 PM
Even "ah, but it's a vengeance spell" makes no sense as a rationalization... because the spell was for vengeance on Angelus. For him to suffer from his crimes. You're still basically saying that... they missed.

We're not hearing anything new here at all. SSDD. Angel being totally morally segregated from what he did without a soul for the sake of him being a more idealized romantic partner.

dorotea
02-04-13, 03:32 PM
OK, so you are separating them and ignoring Gage saying Liam is in the amalgamated mix in Angelus by deciding that it is the memories of a separate being they share and nothing else, ok. Please can you tell me why Angel thinks that isn't true and talks to Spike/Dru/Darla as if he personally shares history with them then?

I am not ignoring what's CG is saying. In fact I try to pay closest attention to his reasoning.

He based his story on the assumption that Angelus is an amalgamation of unrestrained vampire demon that has consciousness of its own and the human memories of the possessed body that the demon can sift through and use at its leisure. Yet the demon is still in full control and using/discarding the memories is effectively applying a filter - thus creating a new personality that has demonic morality and demonic choice of what to do with the inherited memories.

Angel is a soul plus all the Liams' memories plus the memories acquired as a vampire. But it works the same way - Angelus has memories of Liam yet *it* is not Liam, nor is it Angel. So the memories of being in love for example cause him feel dirty. Compare this to vampire Darla's 'filthy human soul!' vs her sharing a soul with unborn Connor crying in fear of loosing love for her yet unborn child and going as far as to stake herself - to prevent that from happening. Sorry read on your own risk to be spoiled with AtS later seasons events.




The motivation doesn't change the fact that it is a soul restoration spell.

In fact it does, as the restoration is supposed to be means to an end - i.e. to cause suffering.



Plus, if it is vengeance then why the heck would they apply it to someone else, that wouldn’t be vengeance that would be letting Angelus off and punishing a random person, all that is is stupid.

It is stupid, but it was never implied in the original text that gypsies did something smart, fair or just. Same as it is implied later in AtS that Holtz' does something fair or smart. As far as I am convinced, vengeance is always portrayed as something unwholesome in the series.


As for child vampires, everyone has darker desires, even children. They bully and are selfish and often unable to understand/comprehend another person's feelings (if young enough). Arguably you can't get more selfish in motivations than a new born baby, it cries and it demands.

But the newborn is 'innocent'. Same as was 6 year old Collin. Yet burning him in a cage was presented very much as a playful act of one vampire demon vs another. Imagine how scared the child personality inside would be of the Master - yet Collin acts as a being totally devoid of fears or reservations.

I would say it would feel totally wrong to me if the show was so non-nonchalant about dusting, burning etc of child vampires - presuming they retained their human children personalities and were not simply demons who 'set shop' in children's bodies.

cil_domney
02-04-13, 04:10 PM
Here is an analogy that I apply to the Angelus-Angel identity - wondering what other think.

What if Angelus were an alcoholic that ends up killing innocents people and he becomes so overwhelmed by guilt and sorrow for what his "inner demon" - his addiction to alcohol has done. He has committed a terrible and irreversible crime by killing these innocent people.

The man and the alcoholic man - they are they same person.

The man/alcoholic feeling all this guilt then changes his life - stops drinking and devotes his entire life to helping other people to up for his crimes and killing his victims. He knows that he can never bring back those victims of his life as an alcoholic, he cannot eradicate his crimes as the alcoholic, but what he can do is transform his life so that he works to do good with his life instead of being the killer that his inner demon/dark side made possible.

Is this the same man, who has transformed his life from killer alcoholic to man in the service of doing good for others? Or is he a new creation - do we have a new man or a transformed man?

I cannot see how we can have Man A-alcoholic to Man B-reformed alcoholic/servant for good with the connecting fabric of his guilt and events of his all his life. The points are all connected.

Stoney
02-04-13, 05:36 PM
I am not ignoring what's CG is saying. In fact I try to pay closest attention to his reasoning.

He based his story on the assumption that Angelus is an amalgamation of unrestrained vampire demon that has consciousness of its own and the human memories of the possessed body that the demon can sift through and use at its leisure. Yet the demon is still in full control and using/discarding the memories is effectively applying a filter - thus creating a new personality that has demonic morality and demonic choice of what to do with the inherited memories.

See that isn't what he is saying, you are ignoring part of his words to try and apply a reasoning he didn't express. He just spoke in factual terms about how a vampire is made, that is all I'm talking about too. He hasn't brought up memories because he is talking more substantially than that, the origins and formation of the vampire. Angelus is an amalgamation of a vampire demon and Liam's worst qualities. So there is contribution there from Liam's personality and flaws, the darkest parts of him. Now normally people don't act on their darkest desires but that barrier goes when the vampire demon is there instead of a soul so some of Liam's worst qualities are acted on at will, without regard and without restraint. That has nothing to do with memories that is some character origins for the vamp.


Angel is a soul plus all the Liams' memories plus the memories acquired as a vampire. But it works the same way - Angelus has memories of Liam yet *it* is not Liam, nor is it Angel. So the memories of being in love for example cause him feel dirty.

But notice how Gage didn't differentiate between Liam and Angel...

So Liam/Angel (souled being) is not the same as Angelus (no soul) but they're not unrelated/separate either.
Sure Angel still has the demon there which makes restraint harder, he isn't identical to Liam but in a basic sense they are in a similar position in that Angel is a vampire demon with a soul which, like a human, gives moral guidance on behaviour which contains and suppresses worst qualities. Angelus is a vampire demon with Liam's worst qualities and no restraint. Let me be clear. A vampire demon side by side with a human's worst qualities will perform actions that the human/souled!vamp versions would never consider because of the soul. It doesn't mean that that worst behaviour isn't seeded in origin from the human, because it is. But there are things that Liam/Angel would never do that Angelus wouldn't think twice about. Angel just has a harder time than Liam because the demon is still in there too.

[thanks for spoiler notice, I did avoid reading it so hopefully I didn't miss something too significant an addition to your point.]


In fact it does, as the restoration is supposed to be means to an end - i.e. to cause suffering.

To Angelus. If he just wanted random vengeance and it mattered not who it was directed at he could have just gone out and cursed the next person he saw.


It is stupid, but it was never implied in the original text that gypsies did something smart, fair or just. As far as I am convinced, vengeance is always portrayed as something unwholesome in the series.

The stupid part was that the loophole released the demon from its restraint so they then returned the very thing they were punishing to a state of glee. The vengeance was to remove happiness and keep it removed and that had to be inflicted on the perpetrator or it just 'aint vengeance.


But the newborn is 'innocent'. Same as was 6 year old Collin. Yet burning him in a cage was presented very much as a playful act of one vampire demon vs another. Imagine how scared the child personality inside would be of the Master - yet Collin acts as a being totally devoid of fears or reservations.

The thing you are missing here is you are confusing innocence and worst qualities. All victims can have been innocent, even if they were adults they were innocent of the life/behaviour of becoming a killing demon.


ANGEL
She's an innocent victim.

SPIKE
So were we... once upon a time.

ANGEL
Once upon a time.

But everyone has worst qualities. My point about the newborn is that they are naturally entirely self focussed and will scream and scream and scream if they feel unwell/hungry/tired etc. There is nothing wrong with that, hierarchy of needs etc but, if you vamped a newborn baby you can bet your bottom dollar that it would have a magnificent bloodlust and greed. Because that is the only 'worst' quality a newborn has, the desire for its own wants above everything, that is as bad as it gets. Now a six year old wants everything their own way, maybe can be cruel and pick on other children. So a child vamp may be cruel and selfish, reflecting that as their 'worst qualities'. Adults have far more scope to have developed more complex negative behaviours/motivators that can be their vamp focus. It is all about worst qualities, not innocence.


I would say it would feel totally wrong to me if the show was so non-nonchalant about dusting, burning etc of child vampires - presuming they retained their human children personalities and were not simply demons who 'set shop' in children's bodies.

That is the vicious, sad reality of a vampire though. Just because it leaves a bad taste doesn't change the fact that that child is now a demon with the child's worst qualities in place.

kana
02-04-13, 07:04 PM
Ok, I'm a little confused. I'll have to go back and look at the interview, but it seems the discussion keeps going round and round in circles here.

I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but I used to talk about the two main theories of vampirism and what the implications are regarding said theories.

Now the first thing I'd like to say is that as far as I'm aware, Btvs and Ats and the associated works are a dualist slant in regards to the metaphysics. What I mean by that there is an enduring 'I' that is the distinct from the body. Does everyone agree?

Well let's look at the evidence. Without this enduring 'I', distinct from the body, how is it that Buffy's body was rotting in the ground when she herself is in heaven? How can Faith, still be Faith when she is in Buffy's body? Carpe Noctem has Angel in an elderly man's body and of course we know that ghosts exist in the 'Verse.

So this is the evidence that Btvs, at least on the face of it, is a dualist show. The problem becomes that people use the word 'soul' when they are talking about this enduring 'I'. I think Willow used the word soul in regards to Buffy possibly being in a hell dimension and I think there were other examples.

Now, if the soul refers to the this 'I' then essentially Angel and Angelus are seperate, because when Liam is sired, essentially the body dies and the human soul (i.e. Liam himself) goes to the ether and a demon takes over his body and memories and the rest we all know. When Angelus is ensouled, they are essentially two individuals sharing a body and memories (for some reason)

I tend to call this Theory 1.

Now Theory 2 means the soul is a conscience. So where does this leave the enduring 'I'? Well we still have to have a human spirit of sorts right, because all humans appear to have that in the 'Verse, logically, Liam's spirit remains, but his conscience leaves to the ether.

The reason I make this distinction clear, is because people keep talking about 'worst qualities', but that doesn't in and of itself explain the nature of an enduring entity. I'm just trying to clarify further what is meant in terms of 'different' and 'seperate'.

Theory 2 seems to be supported by posters such as Maggie, Mogs etc, but I'd further clarify by saying under this theory Liam's human spirit remains. So essentially the spirit endures but is changed by a lack of conscience and demon physiology.

When we say he's different, under this theory, what we mean that's it's the same person exhibiting different qualities and traits. In the same way, it makes sense to say that WatcherWes and DarkWes are the same person, but that DarkWes is 'different' from WatcherWes because he demonstrates different traits. In short, he's a different person in Season 4 of Ats from who he was in Season 3 of Btvs but he's not a seperate individual in the way that say Buffy and Xander are.

Under Theory 1 Angelus and Angel/Liam are different and seperate, so it seems unlikely this is what Gage is talking about. They would be as seperate as Buffy and Xander, because each has their own consciousness but they happen to share the same body. Another reason Theory 1 is problematic is why would Angel think he was Angelus or that he did those things? Why wouldn't Marcus Roscoe have that problem in Carpe Noctem? Essentially Marcus' soul was in Liam's vamped body with Angelus as a 'houseguest'. So why didn't he have Angelus' memories like Liam did? Theory 2 seems to make more sense and the soul is merely the conscience and the enduring spirit is the thing that houses the memories and consciousness.

All things considered, it seems that Theory 2 seems more likely in terms of what Gage meant, unless I'm misunderstanding, but contextually it doesn't make sense to assume theory 1 even with the very wholly "sharing the same memories" issue.

As far as I'm concerned it all comes down to the meaning of the 'soul'. Spirit or conscience?

EDIT: I looked at the link and frankly I'm confused. It seems most people on this forum are supporting what I'd regard as theory 2, but if that's the same Angel/Angelus/Liam are all the same individual who exhibited different traits depending on his memories or whether or not he has demon physiology or a soul.

hayes62
02-04-13, 08:33 PM
Ok, I'm a little confused. I'll have to go back and look at the interview, but it seems the discussion keeps going round and round in circles here.
I think Gage is too when it comes down to it. In the comic he has Alasdair exposite the Enders as beings that "utterly consume your soul. They end you." The Enders themselves seem to agree with this, telling their potential victim they're about to be "erased from existence." Both of which make it pretty clear that what the Enders consume is the theory 1 soul = essence. It then transpires that what Spike was scared of wasn't being erased but reverting to being "William the Bloody" i.e. he was afraid they were going to eat his conscience not his essence. Which might just about make the kind of sense that doesn't if there were supposed to be two essences occupying Spike's body and the Enders are for some reason only able to consume one of them. Except that then none of Spike and Faith's heart to heart about not wanting to "go back to who you were" makes any kind of sense. Faith is unambiguously empathising with Spike and not even the Bangelest Bangel has ever tried to make the case that pre and post prison Faith are separate beings.

Local Maximum
02-04-13, 09:12 PM
I think Gage is too when it comes down to it. In the comic he has Alasdair exposite the Enders as beings that "utterly consume your soul. They end you." The Enders themselves seem to agree with this, telling their potential victim they're about to be "erased from existence." Both of which make it pretty clear that what the Enders consume is the theory 1 soul = essence. It then transpires that what Spike was scared of wasn't being erased but reverting to being "William the Bloody" i.e. he was afraid they were going to eat his conscience not his essence. Which might just about make the kind of sense that doesn't if there were supposed to be two essences occupying Spike's body and the Enders are for some reason only able to consume one of them. Except that then none of Spike and Faith's heart to heart about not wanting to "go back to who you were" makes any kind of sense. Faith is unambiguously empathising with Spike and not even the Bangelest Bangel has ever tried to make the case that pre and post prison Faith are separate beings.

And at the very least, Faith shouldn't be kicking herself for not registering that "soul" meant something different in different contexts within the comic and for not realizing that Spike's soul-but-not-his-personhood would be at stake.

cil_domney
03-04-13, 04:17 AM
Ok, I'm a little confused. I'll have to go back and look at the interview, but it seems the discussion keeps going round and round in circles here.

I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but I used to talk about the two main theories of vampirism and what the implications are regarding said theories.

Now the first thing I'd like to say is that as far as I'm aware, Btvs and Ats and the associated works are a dualist slant in regards to the metaphysics. What I mean by that there is an enduring 'I' that is the distinct from the body. Does everyone agree?

Well let's look at the evidence. Without this enduring 'I', distinct from the body, how is it that Buffy's body was rotting in the ground when she herself is in heaven? How can Faith, still be Faith when she is in Buffy's body? Carpe Noctem has Angel in an elderly man's body and of course we know that ghosts exist in the 'Verse.

So this is the evidence that Btvs, at least on the face of it, is a dualist show. The problem becomes that people use the word 'soul' when they are talking about this enduring 'I'. I think Willow used the word soul in regards to Buffy possibly being in a hell dimension and I think there were other examples.

Now, if the soul refers to the this 'I' then essentially Angel and Angelus are seperate, because when Liam is sired, essentially the body dies and the human soul (i.e. Liam himself) goes to the ether and a demon takes over his body and memories and the rest we all know. When Angelus is ensouled, they are essentially two individuals sharing a body and memories (for some reason)

I tend to call this Theory 1.

Now Theory 2 means the soul is a conscience. So where does this leave the enduring 'I'? Well we still have to have a human spirit of sorts right, because all humans appear to have that in the 'Verse, logically, Liam's spirit remains, but his conscience leaves to the ether.

The reason I make this distinction clear, is because people keep talking about 'worst qualities', but that doesn't in and of itself explain the nature of an enduring entity. I'm just trying to clarify further what is meant in terms of 'different' and 'seperate'.

Theory 2 seems to be supported by posters such as Maggie, Mogs etc, but I'd further clarify by saying under this theory Liam's human spirit remains. So essentially the spirit endures but is changed by a lack of conscience and demon physiology.

When we say he's different, under this theory, what we mean that's it's the same person exhibiting different qualities and traits. In the same way, it makes sense to say that WatcherWes and DarkWes are the same person, but that DarkWes is 'different' from WatcherWes because he demonstrates different traits. In short, he's a different person in Season 4 of Ats from who he was in Season 3 of Btvs but he's not a seperate individual in the way that say Buffy and Xander are.

Under Theory 1 Angelus and Angel/Liam are different and seperate, so it seems unlikely this is what Gage is talking about. They would be as seperate as Buffy and Xander, because each has their own consciousness but they happen to share the same body. Another reason Theory 1 is problematic is why would Angel think he was Angelus or that he did those things? Why wouldn't Marcus Roscoe have that problem in Carpe Noctem? Essentially Marcus' soul was in Liam's vamped body with Angelus as a 'houseguest'. So why didn't he have Angelus' memories like Liam did? Theory 2 seems to make more sense and the soul is merely the conscience and the enduring spirit is the thing that houses the memories and consciousness.

All things considered, it seems that Theory 2 seems more likely in terms of what Gage meant, unless I'm misunderstanding, but contextually it doesn't make sense to assume theory 1 even with the very wholly "sharing the same memories" issue.

As far as I'm concerned it all comes down to the meaning of the 'soul'. Spirit or conscience?

EDIT: I looked at the link and frankly I'm confused. It seems most people on this forum are supporting what I'd regard as theory 2, but if that's the same Angel/Angelus/Liam are all the same individual who exhibited different traits depending on his memories or whether or not he has demon physiology or a soul.

Thanks for your post - interesting.

The first question that I have is why does a dead body need a spirit to remain after the body dies, this enduring I? The forces that give life to a body are physical in nature - death is dead physical existence. If what you call "soul-conscience" leaves the physical body upon death - I will accept that - but why is this not the same as your enduring I life force? Is your enduring I a sentiment force? Even more complex is your "soul-conscience" because as I understand the definition of conscience it is directly linked to a moral-ethics system and that is a human construct. If we lived in a world or society where killing was not against the established moral code it would be perfectly acceptable and normal. The reason that I bring in moral and ethical code is because Buffy and Giles and all other characters always bring in "soul" as the arbitrator of capacity for good or adherence to their established moral code.

What do you mean by soul conscience? Is it at all related or connected to the usual definition of conscience that relates it to a moral code? And when we look at the "life force" whatever it is that creates life on this planet and that also controls and effects the non-living elements in this world - it cares nothing whatever about Good or Evil or Conscience - it exist, it creates living creatures and non-living but it does not in connect to a moral code.

Regarding the Gypsy curse:

The stupid part was that the loophole released the demon from its restraint so they then returned the very thing they were punishing to a state of glee. The vengeance was to remove happiness and keep it removed and that had to be inflicted on the perpetrator or it just 'aint vengeance.

The Gypsy curse was no so much as stupid as it was not thorough - the complete vengeance curse cast on Angel would have had any person or object that would have brought him a true joy/mercy/grace would have died or beeen destroyed thus leaving Angel in a perpetual state of pain and suffering from the curse.

kana
03-04-13, 09:55 AM
Thanks for your post - interesting.

Thank you very much.



The first question that I have is why does a dead body need a spirit to remain after the body dies, this enduring I? The forces that give life to a body are physical in nature - death is dead physical existence.

Well I'm not a dualist in real life, but as I said, there is plenty of evidence on the shows (which I provided) that seems to imply that the Buffyverse has a dualist slant. We know that memories and a physical body can exist without essentially the person being in the body (in Illyria's case althougha modern view might dictate that Fred lives on a the form of her memories) but essentially the consciousness can exist without the body and without thee physical processes of the body (otherwise how do you explain Sid The Dummy?)


If what you call "soul-conscience" leaves the physical body upon death - I will accept that - but why is this not the same as your enduring I life force?

Well if it's not the same then it means the Angelus would be essentially a seperate person from Liam. As I've demonstrated the Buffyverse seems to have a dualist slant. In other words, who you are is more than your body so this consciousness must either remain in the body or it leaves the body, but in some shape or form, it seems to exist.


Is your enduring I a sentiment force?

What do you mean by a 'sentiment force'?


Even more complex is your "soul-conscience" because as I understand the definition of conscience it is directly linked to a moral-ethics system and that is a human construct.

I actually don't disagree with this, at least in real life, but I'm going on what characters within show say.

(from memory)Wes: He may be a ruffian, but he does a soul and therefore an urge to do the right thing.

Wes may be mistaken here as may be Angel when he talked about having his conscience back in the episode Angel in Btvs.

However I'm merely basing this second definition of the soul on what I've observed within the 'Verse, but yeah, I don't really like the idea of a metaphysical ball of conscience.

I suppose one could argue that the soul is a merely a metaphysical force that gives one an increased sense of empathy, meaning a vampire can understand on an intellectual level the human construct of morality, but assume they are evil, because they lack the same emotional responses to actions they would have considered morally reprehensible when they were human. For the sake of simplicity, I've labelled this as a conscience(well actually Angel himself did), but I do share your skepticism on the matter.

I even created a thread asking how we should judge vampires (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17727), if we cannot even pin down the definition of the soul. (or it may be on another forum where I talked about that problem.



If we lived in a world or society where killing was not against the established moral code it would be perfectly acceptable and normal. The reason that I bring in moral and ethical code is because Buffy and Giles and all other characters always bring in "soul" as the arbitrator of capacity for good or adherence to their established moral code.

Well, as I said, I'm not arguing my real life view but trying to explain the fact that there seems to be a psychological shift between the subsequent vampire and the preceding human. There is the same level of intelligence and the same understanding of human societies rules, so why the sudden change in behaviour?


What do you mean by soul conscience? Is it at all related or connected to the usual definition of conscience that relates it to a moral code?

Well see above, but it does make us wonder...We know the soul has to exist, because we see it in episodes such as Soulless. So if it's not a enduring I or it's not the conscience, then what is it?


And when we look at the "life force" whatever it is that creates life on this planet and that also controls and effects the non-living elements in this world - it cares nothing whatever about Good or Evil or Conscience - it exist, it creates living creatures and non-living but it does not in connect to a moral code.

Again, I'm not looking at it from a 'real life' perspective, I'm trying to reconcile the the different facets of the Buffyverse and attempting to make it make sense.

Regarding the Gypsy curse:


The stupid part was that the loophole released the demon from its restraint so they then returned the very thing they were punishing to a state of glee. The vengeance was to remove happiness and keep it removed and that had to be inflicted on the perpetrator or it just 'aint vengeance.

We actually don't know how the happiness clause came about. It's more than possible it was simply a metaphysical side effect of the spell or a cosmic price the Gypsies had to pay: To be cursed to watch over Angel to make sure he suffers. Either way, considering it was a lot of hassle for the Gypsies to watch over Angel all those years, I would imagine it wasn't their idea.


The Gypsy curse was no so much as stupid as it was not thorough - the complete vengeance curse cast on Angel would have had any person or object that would have brought him a true joy/mercy/grace would have died or beeen destroyed thus leaving Angel in a perpetual state of pain and suffering from the curse.

Enyos said they were not Gods, and that they merely play their part. Perhaps they were not powerful enough to pull off such a curse.

Stoney
03-04-13, 10:20 AM
The Gypsy curse was no so much as stupid as it was not thorough - the complete vengeance curse cast on Angel would have had any person or object that would have brought him a true joy/mercy/grace would have died or beeen destroyed thus leaving Angel in a perpetual state of pain and suffering from the curse.

Cripes, first Angel and then any person who brought him joy, how many more innocent people need to pay for Angelus' crimes?!! :D :lol:

kana it has to be said Jenny didn't do the most obvious thing to stop Angel getting happier and happier, such as tell Buffy about the curse.

kana
03-04-13, 12:01 PM
kana it has to be said Jenny didn't do the most obvious thing to stop Angel getting happier and happier, such as tell Buffy about the curse.

My memory might be a little fuzzy but as far as I remember Jenny didn't know about the happiness clause until it was too late. She was sent to keep Angel and Buffy away from each other but she wasn't told why.

The people who should be blamed in that situation, the most is the Gypsies who didn't provide Jenny with sufficient information. The worst she did was not ask enough questions, but she didn't know about the curse until after Angel lost his soul.

Again, I could be wrong on this...

Jack Shaftoe
03-04-13, 05:05 PM
You are not wrong, Jenny's task was the ill-defined "make sure Angel still suffers". When finally told about the curse she called it "insanity".

shipperx
04-04-13, 02:41 AM
kana it has to be said Jenny didn't do the most obvious thing to stop Angel getting happier and happier, such as tell Buffy about the curse.

For a moment I thought you were going to say something else. (I think I've been watching/reading too much Game of Thrones...)



We're not hearing anything new here at all. SSDD. Angel being totally morally segregated from what he did without a soul for the sake of him being a more idealized romantic partner. Though considering Season 8, it seems like an argument to be retired. Angel had a soul while inflicting catastrophic harm on multitudes and deciding to undermine Buffy personally, emotionally, and professionally 'for her own good' (at least in his eyes.)

Though I'm also scratching my head over why it would be argued that Angel being cursed with his soul (the first time. It's been returned to him without his choice twice more since then) changes the metaphysics in his case such that it's any different from what happens with Darla's or Spike's or Buffy's soul. The electric chair being a form of punishment doesn't change the way that electricity works.

I know Angel is 'special' but his having his very own set of metaphysical laws is rather excessive .

dorotea
04-04-13, 07:19 PM
that it's any different from what happens with Darla's or Spike's or Buffy's soul

The argument is indeed over the fact that metaphysics stay the same over everybody's soul. Spoiler for Stoney's sake. When Darla is sharing a soul she is a different personality - capable of love for her human child and willing to sacrifice herself so the baby lives vs her thrusting missionaries baby at Angel insisting he eats it on the spot when soulless; when Spike is without a soul - he is a different personality capable of torturing people with railroad spikes without remorse and eating an entire orphanage of kids, etc. With Buffy is is less pronounced, because she looses soul gradually, thus her personality shifts gradually.

BAF
05-04-13, 01:56 PM
Rebekah Isaacs Slayalive Q/A for Angel & Faith # 20.

http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/3371-*COMPLETE*-Q-amp-A-with-Rebekah-Isaacs-for-ANGEL-amp-FAITH-20

Morphia
05-04-13, 09:17 PM
I'm glad she admits she had trouble drawing Spike. It shows.

A pity. For the most part, she's very good.

sybil
05-04-13, 10:20 PM
To Hayes. The “thing” is, Faith also has “demon essence” in her re the slayer, (which is also known as “the killer in me”) and therefore, she has the same “construction” as do the vampires, re “demon essence” and “soul essence” attaching to the “dark” and “light” “elements” of the psyche. Her slayerness has never been taken from her, as it was taken from Buffy. The problem is really not in daemon, (spirit) but in “light and dark,” a choice.

What I think youse guys really are looking for is some character that has an identifiable soul, but no “demon essence” to confuse the picture, and, therefore, can’t be “boogity” to confuse the situation re “pre jail Faith” and “post jail” Faith. She had a demon and a soul in both. So the answer is Xander. Xander has a soul, has darkness and has light, but no demon essence. He is not “boogity” e.g. “warlock”or “undead” or “slayer.” He is a human being. That means he is ALL of these things all the other characters have made into interaction with the self as psyche/body and all the other “separated” dualities.

Xander is Buffy’s rock, not Spike and not Angel. (Thus, Xander is the argument of “choice” in darkness or light and not “shadow or trickster,” flipped between the vampires).

The fact it is “all about Buffy” does not make her less of an avatar. The only real person is Xander, and, maybe Connor, who is Angel, and Dawn, who is Buffy. But, of course, they are given ‘mystical’ beginnings as is the “mystical” and “mythical” argument re “where do babies come from” in the real sense of “where does duality come from?”

The authors don’t really seem interested in “dissecting” Xander because he is “everything.” And having some device for “blame” e.g. souls or demon essence are themselves not simple. Not even in dreams. Soul essence re conscience does require “other” for there to be some “moral” structure, which requires “duality”—which I think is really the discussion I would like to have—as I do think that “duality” is why there is no objective reality possible unless there is “no duality”—which is what “liminality” achieves.

That morality too often and too much is cultural is not lost on me in any of this discussion with regard to “what is human” and I have yet to understand what makes something “alive” in this universe.

This universe speaks of “spiritual entities” having identity, and thus, “cause,” yet having “no body” and still capable of “effect,” That is where all this “essence” stuff is coming from. It’s kind of invisible, but has “power” e.g. a “temptation.” Illyria crossing dimensions and conquering all; or “the sentient universe” in season eight , don’t have “tangible” bodies in the way they “move through space and time” without limit or limitation UNTIL they show up in THIS universe, which requires this “sentient universe” or “god” or “demon essence” or “soul” to also require usurping some “form” or “the body.”

“Sentient universes” are (tyrannical) gods. When they enter “our universe” from that “portal” they “get a body” and they are called “babies”—with parents running themselves ragged in their “worship” and “love” to satisfy every need, when this “being” doesn’t know what it wants until it gets what it doesn’t. (Joss’s belief: Life is pain). These gods must be “killed.” They discover “inner world” and “exterior world” e.g. “duality” and then they grow and change and discover “other.”

Angel, as a construct of the psyche, that he is, and as “undead” is “between dimensionality,” naturally, has to have a human baby, for it “grew” and “evolved.” YET Connor also had to have “gods” aka the pure “demon” for parents

The vampire demon is “pure” or “essence” unto itself, as would be any other demon, but is only “less” or is corrupted when it attaches to a human who is dying and is thus “corrupted” by the ‘human experience’ and then having to “attach” to the physicality of matter/energy in “flesh.”

Blood, as both physical and emotional “nourishment” is necessary to sustain the (dyingor dead) body from decay and “feed” the (frustrated) demon “the experience” of the human being e.g. his fear, anger, pain. These are primal and powerful, which the vampire demon experiences “indirectly” as his body is only animated, but cannot change, as did the living human’s nor can the dead person’s direct experience change: he is dead.

However, that now ‘undead’ human, or the body animated by demon, has a brain that is also animated by the demon, which means that brain “functions” and can still “learn” in terms of survival and memory. The demon will not choose to “attach” to the lighter impulses that bring the demon “pain” so the demon will attach to those impulses like itself: the shadow. But, the emotional content of an undead vampire’s experience will be “indirect.” That is why the vampire cannot change, grow or die. Why he remains “immortal.” It requires the “soul” to have direct emotional experience that enables the “undead” to actually change (especially from the shadow. Darkness and light are a * choice *. All that is dark is not evil and light can cast a shadow. (The shadow in archetype is the self willed and is also called “evil” versus the ‘trickster’ which is self interaction (or with the world) that offers change from complacency and is not always ‘evil.’).

Now then. “The body” itself shapes the mind. The “material” and “spirit” as “one experience” is called liminality. This is the full physical and spiritual union or experience as “one” and such state is constant/ever changing: Enlightenment, as it were. You saw a picture of the “how to” in season eight.

Joss is both existential and atheist: this liminality for him can only be known at “its extreme ends” of “perfect peace”—a hell—and as “nihilism” also a hell, as it is Buffy who is cursed to “suffer”—not Angel. (He won’t get that until ‘shanshu: a human being. This is all going to everyone becoming “Xander.” Hee hee.

BTW, I repeat. The answer to a curse is in its making. That means, in this universe, with death as the overarching metaphor (meaning “change,”) the only “end to suffering” or “peace” will be in the “death” of duality, as is “liminality” or “integration/actualization” aka “BUFFY GREW UP.” Became an adult. Childhood “died.” The “insanity” is that “perfect happiness” is “incomplete” to the curse, which was put upon ANGELUS, who himself must also have “perfect happiness.” Neither can have it with the other or without the other, for how does the immortal die? Mortality. How does “walking death” die? He must live. How does God die? He must be man. (Both must die, both must live) See? I prefer Angel and Buffy kill each other to “end the world”—which is what season eight “threatened.” (Not just “go to hell”—but “grow up” and “end of never” as the series”). You may prefer “watching pain” which is “growth” and the “death” of potential, multiverse and “time lines.” Take your pick.

Illyria was “snorted” and took over Fred, supposedly consuming every last shred of her soul, yet her “shell” seems to exert “something” of herself on this dimensionally capable god king’s “psyche,” to act upon an impulse “unknown” e.g. to “care” when “the word” didn’t exist for him, for that flesh once had hands that “helped” and a “brain” that remembers “light” and cared, besides having to inhabit so tiny a space, with so little effect, (so we can now have grand battle scenes of Old Ones “giving way” to the “ new age of humans” aka “A.D.”).

The argument is merely if you accept “metaphysics” versus “liminality” or if your cup of tea is the Upanishads self as God, or the Bhavagad Gita (dualism, theoism, etc) in the arguments of action/inaction. The consequence is felt in despair of hope or hope of despair, as “a good time had by all” is called hell Aka as “earth/life” and “heaven” isn’t allowed as “the end of suffering” is not life, nor is it death (potential). It is peace.

As for the curse. We speak in mythical language here. We saw Angel’s soul as “separate” from his body, (as this is the “identifier” of Liam, the human as a “living soul” from his “flesh body.” ). This soul was ‘dragged back’ with the curse, forced to live in his dead body, but animated by both the physical blood and what is carried in that blood. body in the demon essence of a species of demon aka “vampire,” that “attaches” to the dark aspects of the dying human: fear, rage, are the pain that are “identifiers” of Liam’s darkness that feeds this demon vampire. (And, will continue to feed a vampire in each of his victims also feeling fear and pain in the physical blood they are forced to lose). Now if the “light” impulses are driven out with the soul, I cannot say! The daemon (demon) does not attach to them. They may be “reawakened” in the dead human’s direct experience/memory before he died or form the place for the soul to attach when a soul is restored to the body. The authors spoke only of “dark impulses.” And, they have no problem slicing a soul into parts, which, BTW, the “body” is ignored for two of the bits in the primarily Egyptian mythology in use.

The soul’s great light “trapped” in a vessel (body) had great metaphorical significance in that “glass,” of earth/water. Which is Buffy/Angel, BTW, and is the clear yet also “invisible” matter/energy” of the “constant/everflowing.” So, “the body” may not simply mean “shell” and the “emotions” are a form of “body” in this universe that is animated by soul and demon, both of which can be “god,” I am guessing. Yet, it is the creation of duality that is “the story” for one “creates” the other. So the human condition is “source” to story. I will never know if “soul” is identity, when daemon only means “spirit” and not demon. Maybe “illusion” and “knowing what to see” is the surprise when answers, word, sound, picture are always merely “symbols” and never are.
HUGS!
sybil

MikeB
09-04-13, 09:15 AM
All caught up



* For the most part, I consider Angel’s curse to be another thread topic. What’s relevant for this thread is Spike talking about Angel and Angelus as if they are two different people and Faith considering Angelus and AngelTwilight aren’t Angel and therefore her considering Angel isn’t responsible for anything he did when he wasn’t cursed and when he was AngelTwilight.


Edit: I just wanted to add that Christos Gage's opinions on stuff -- just like with Andrew Chambliss, Scott Allie, etc. -- is important simply because it informs what he writes in the comics. So, if his opinions of stuff get into the actual comic, they become canon.

Gage had said something like Angel was already redeemed before A&F even began. Then he wrote A&F as he did.




Maggie

http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=662001&postcount=103 For those who think otherwise, this post doesn’t seem to be a response to something I posted.

_______________________________________________

* To be fair, Faith in A&F just said that Angel isn’t responsible for anything he did when he wasn’t cursed and when he was AngelTwilight because in those periods he wasn’t actually Angel. Angel being completely separate from Angelus is how Spike has been talking about Angel in A&F and how Faith is considering Angel. I hardly fault Cherylba. bonnaleah, and dorotea to want to agree with Spike and Faith in this case.



janas

* Harmony was already working for W&H before Angel and Co. arrived. She was in the secretary pool.

I guess I’d like to point out here that Harmony essentially was an Executive Assistant and therefore was probably making 6-figures and therefore more than probably any paralegal working at the firm.



KingofCretins

* My quote: “Buffy in 9.01 wanted to have sex with him.”

First off, I was responding to something someone else posted. Secondly, this is canon. Maybe you forgot that flashback.


* My quote: “It’s clear if Buffy hadn’t shown up when she did Faith would have had sex with Spike (if he decided to have sex with her).”

Nothing suggests otherwise unless Faith heavily flirting with a guy, getting into bed with that guy, and continuing to heavily flirt with that guy including showing off her body to him somehow indicates she doesn’t intend to have sex with that guy.


* My quote: “He said HIS take, not Joss Whedon’s take. Gage’s “take” on what “Angelus” and “Angel” are doesn’t mesh with how A&F Spike views them.”

This is true.


* My quote: “She had sex with him in BtVS S7.”

According to BtVS S8, she did. Either that or she had sex with someone else in late BtVS S7 or before 8.01 happens.

This isn’t a Buffy/Spike thread, but her having sex with him anytime after “Get it Done” (7.15) make sense.


My quote: “Spike knows Buffy wants to have sex with him. His problems with Buffy have nothing to do with her willingness to have sex with him.”

Everybody understand this now? Write it down. This is important stuff. Um, yes, it is. This Issue had Spike having sex with Harmony for nonsensical reasons and had both Spike and Angel telling each other that they still wanted Buffy.


* My quote: “Wow, this is alarming. Gage doesn’t even remember what’s in A&F.”

This is addressing Gage not remembering something that happened in A&F.


For someone always pointing out that the writers aren't arbiter of canon, you spend a lot of time telling the writers that they are wrong, as though you have the test answer key. Huh? I’m responding to something posted. If I only responded to arbiters of canon, I’d simply write my bullet points and analysis and write like one post per thread (more if I thought of other things). I wouldn’t bother even reading others’ posts much less respond to them.


The food chain for canon goes from Joss > people Joss picked to work on his stuff > audience. Um, no. Joss Whedon is the only arbiter of canon. David Fury wasn’t an arbiter of canon when he was saying Spike should never be in a relationship with Buffy. The AtS writers weren’t arbiters of canon when they wanted Angel to actually be in a relationship with Cordy. The writers are only arbiters of canon in terms of what actually makes it to the TV screen or comic book pages.


My quote: “This is extremely unprofessional and careless of Dark Horse. The Spike miniseries should have been written and drawn before Gage even started writing the Angel-Spike-Faith interactions in A&F 9.19 and A&F 9.20.”

That is not how the comic industry works at all, so it is hardly a requirement of professionalism. This is currently the continuation of the Buffyverse. The sales are based on readers considering these are the continuation of the Buffyverse and them liking the comics enough to buy them.

This was a crossover and things that happened in the Spike miniseries would/should have had a direct affect on Spike’s dealings in A&F 9.18 – 9.20.

Something like this would have never happened during the TV run. Imagine “Sanctuary” (A 1.19) being aired before the AtS writers even read an outline of what happened in “This Year’s Girl” (4.15) and “Who Are You? (4.16)?


My quote: “Harmony obviously still has feelings for Spike. Now she’s willing to be chained up for him.”

The only feelings for him that takes are the ones in her nether regions. Unless Harmony suddenly is a lot kinkier than she was in BtVS S4, it doesn’t make sense that she’d be eager to be chained up for him if she didn’t still have feelings for him.


Harmony is an objectively more appealing person than Morgan is. Harmony is genuinely likeable and sincere in ways that Morgan has long since forgotten. Spike was thinking of Buffy when he had sex with Harmony in “Destiny” (A 5.08). Spike was thinking about Morgan when he kissed Morgan. And I’m not sure Drusilla would be described as “likable” and Spike was with her for about 120 years.


My quote: "If Spike were shown to have ‘game’, he would have ended up having sex with them instead of what actually happens in the Issue. His only hurdle was to convince them he wouldn’t get “attached” to them."

Do you ever consider you spend way too much time on who is, isn't, would, wouldn't, or should be having sex with Spike? The Issue had Spike trying to have sex with Faith, Lavinia and Sophronia, and having sex with Harmony. Conversely, you talk about Buffy/Xander relatively a lot (recently seeming to imply 40-60% of the Buffyverse fans want Buffy/Xander) and not only did that never happen, it’s likely never to happen.


My quote: “For me, Andrew Chambliss has been getting unfair criticism on this Board and on SA. Chambliss signed on thinking he’d get to write Buffy/Spike and he probably didn’t think Willow was already going to be gone by 9.06 and not return until like 9.21. Chambliss has done well with what he has to work with.”

BS. What can you say as fact to support that Chambliss took the job based on the promise of getting to write Buffy/Spike as an ongoing "Something Blue" redux or something? I didn’t say, “Buffy/Spike as an ongoing "Something Blue" redux or something”.

Maybe you’ve forgotten or having read the SA stuff. But Spike getting a miniseries wasn’t something initially planned. That was a later decision.



Jack Shaftoe

* Spike leaving San Francisco didn’t make sense. But he did have problems with such things as Buffy seeming to want to eventually live in the suburbs and her seemingly wanting to eventually have kids.


Spike relates to Harmony? More than he does some random human woman. Since becoming a vampire, Spike’s only had relationships with supernatural women (and Buffy is the only one who isn’t immortal).


* My quote: “Over in AtS, Angel’s only the leader because the Powers That Be made him their champion and the Fang Gang needed money.”

You agree with this. BtVS isn’t comparable given Buffy wasn’t paying the Scooby Gang.


Spike, the guy who hasn't worked a day in his life […] This is untrue. You think Spike being paid to help the Scoobies doesn’t count as work?


My quote: “What is offensive about the Willow thing is Angel being able to do that to someone who’s a lesbian, never seemed attracted to Angel and who still on some level hated Angel.”

What's being a lesbian have to do with it if it's a mystical power that works on everybody? Before that scene in A&F – unless one wants to believe Buffy was getting pleasure from the Master biting her – the only examples we had of pleasure drinking were “Graduation Day Part II” (3.22), Dracula drinking from Buffy (“Buffy vs. Dracula” (5.01)), and the flashback of Drusilla siring William Pratt (“Fool For Love” (5.07)).


Is Xander being under Dracula's thrall offensive somehow since Xander is heterosexual and Dracula is a man? Not comparable – You may as well say the show was implying Buffy was attracted to the Master, and Kendra was attracted to Drusilla.


You do realize somebody might "have game" and still not be irresistible to absolutely everybody? Vin and Sophie specifically tell Spike the only reason they won’t have sex with him is because they think he’ll be clingy.



Vampire in Rug

* Just because you and others like A&F and consider it the best title of post-BtVS S8 doesn’t mean anyone else has to like A&F or Gage’s writing.


* Degree of the crime(s) matters. What Angel did in BtVS S8 is on par with what uncursed Angel did in BtVS S2. How A&F’s been done is comparable to if BtVS S3 happened as it did except Angel was never recursed and everyone knew Angel was never recursed.


I think some of the complaints are pretty unreasonable too. Gage didn't write Season 8. It's not his fault that Angel spent a year betraying and undermining Buffy. What Angel did to Buffy is among the least of his crimes in BtVS S8. Angel is responsible for the deaths of possibly hundreds of millions (including hundreds of Slayers and many soldiers) and the property and economic damage possibly in the trillions. Christos Gage took the job. You may as well say that it’d be perfectly fine for a writer of BtVS S3 to actually write it as if Angel was actually a good guy during his uncursed period in BtVS S2 and that Angel in “Becoming Part II” (2.22) was trying to save the world.


* A&F should have dealt with the Twilight aftermath in a reasonable way. Instead, it’s written with Angel’s relationships with people being about as they were in AtS s5 or better. It has Angel saying that all the good people would have been in paradise if Buffy weren’t so talkative. Etc. And it makes Angel even worse by introducing Pearl and Nash.


I recall complaints that the A&F book is also racially offensive and I find that pretty hard to take seriously too. Who said this?


* What you consider a “fair reading” of A&F is merely what you consider a “fair reading” of A&F.


Hell, we've got one person here who thinks that A&F is non-canon Likely millions of Buffyverse fans don’t consider A&F canon.


and that Joss is barely involved. This is what Gage has been saying since A&F started. He’s only said that Joss gave an outline during the writers’ summit and gave Gage stuff Joss wrote about Giles’s family.


* Given BtVS S9 is outselling A&F by probably over 10K copies (when factoring in TPBs, eventual HCs, and probable digital sales), the majority consider BtVS S9 the better book.


certainly Chambliss had some storytelling advantages that Gage did not have. Gage got to write about stuff that was going to be in the Ripper spinoff. He got to write Drusilla and some of Dru’s history. He got to write Faith, who is one of the – and possibly the – most likable character from BtVS S8.

Chambliss had to deal with Willow leaving early on, Spike leaving 10 Issues in (and Buffy and Spike never being together), Xander and Dawn barely being in the book, writing Kennedy, and writing new characters that for the period were replacing the Scoobies from the TV series and from BtVS S8.


* Spike by the end of his miniseries decided he was eventually going to go to San Fran to be with Buffy again. Yet this wasn’t incorporated into A&F for reasons including apparently Gage hadn’t even read the ‘script’ of the last Issue (or more) of the Spike miniseries.


* My quote: “A ‘shipper is simply someone who prefers one relationship (or wants one relationship) over another relationship.”

This is self-explanatory. Using Buffy as an example a ‘shipper would prefer Buffy be with ________ over any other Buffy pairing.


Just out of curiosity, why did you submit questions for the Q&A if you consider yourself a more of an authority on canon than Christos Gage? Shouldn't you be answering questions for him instead? In the past you've said that his opinions are "immaterial" and can/should be dismissed. So I have to wonder why when a Q&A was opened that you would even care what he's got to say? You may as well ask why I’m responding to something you wrote. Anyway, I specifically asked if something Faith said and something Spike later said was Gage writing an “audience commentary” or was something supposed to be taken at ‘face value’. I wanted clarification for something he wrote.

But, absolutely, I’d rather debate the guy actually writing the Issues than any person on a Board (who isn’t Joss).


My quote: “Fourth, he comes up with this ‘win-win situation’ evasion by saying Spike saying something doesn’t necessarily mean he means what he says and the same goes for Faith. Essentially, Gage is saying if one likes what Spike says, one can consider he actually meant what he says. If one doesn’t, one can consider he didn’t mean what he says. And the same goes for Faith.”

I've seen you do that all the time. If you like what a character is saying, you'll take it as fact. If you don't like what a character is saying you'll assume that they are lying or mistaken or casting a spell off-screen. I notice that you don’t address what I wrote.

I notice that you ignore that GAGE HIMSELF says that Spike saying something doesn’t necessarily mean he means what he says and the same goes for Faith.


My quote: “Spike at-most was perhaps pushing Dowling to be with Buffy. He wasn’t pushing Buffy to be with Dowling. Spike was trying to get Buffy to think of Spike as her husband (thus the whole raising her child together and living together) and he wanted Buffy to leave San Francisco with him.”

Why would you push another guy to go after your girl if you want her to think of you as her husband? It seems maybe you forgot when things happened.


Question: do you wish that Spike *did* have sex with Faith, and/or the aunts? I’ve already addressed this.


* My quote: “Spike’s friends with Harmony? Since when?”

Anyway, this is merely something Gage said in a Q&A. I’m going to ignore it unless it actually gets into the comics.


* It’s silly to compare the canon from the TV Buffyverse (which will always be canon) to something in the comics (which may eventually no longer be canon.)


I hope you no longer tell other fans that they are not the arbiter of canon Do you actually think you are an arbiter of canon?


My quote: “I remember only Drusilla being confirmed to have eaten babies. Darla offering a baby for Angel to eat doesn’t automatically mean she and he fed on babies.”

Do you think that any of the fanged four at their most evil would be above eating babies/children? In other words, you are merely speculating and we never see Darla or Angel eating a baby or hear of them having done so.


* My quote: "I take his words at face value. In A&F 9.19, Gage had Spike saying Angelus could kill the total of Spike, Faith, and 12 Slayers “in a moment.”"

Spike equating Angelus’ danger to that of a full-powered evil Illyria isn’t his using a “figure of speech”. It’s something that Spike wouldn’t do, but apparently Gage is telling us that we don’t have to believe stuff Spike says or Faith says. So, this was simply bad writing from Gage.


* If anything, A&F 9.20 make it even more likely Spike was sleeping around in early BtVS S7.


* If Morgan had a phone number, she would have given it to Spike.


The scoobies didn't have the expenses that the fang gang did and they ran their operations very differently. Like not renting and then buying a property likely worth at least 9-figures with yearly expenses probably in the 7-figures or more.


I don't recall Spike, "having a problem" with Angel charging people for his services in "In the Dark", He snarks about Angel’s being a private detective. Spike was mocking Angel’s idea that Angel was better than Spike and that Angel somehow ‘deserved’ the Gem of Amarra more than Spike did.


My quote: “The “IDW ongoing” isn’t canon. We don’t even know what from the stuff Brian Lynch and Juliet Landau wrote is canon.”

Actually, every indication from Dark Horse is that if I want to put it into my own personal canon, I can, and they won't contradict it. Certainly they have never openly declared it to be non-canon. It’s not canon. The problem is you talk about the “IDW ongoing” as if its canon and use things in it in your arguments.



cheryl4ba

* Giles getting to kill Eyghon doesn’t make up for all the people that died because Angel decided to be AngelTwilight and all the property and economic damage that resulted from AngelTwilight’s actions.


* Eyghon would have come back in A&F whether Giles was dead or not. Giles could have told Buffy and Co. about Eyghon.



bonnaleah

* Again, Gage is not the arbiter of canon. Only Joss gets to decide what exactly Angel is.


* Angel and Liam are not the same “being”. Liam was a human.

_________________________________________________


Gage speculates that Maybe William's bad parts were more tied in with his good parts. Huh? Anyway, Joss says that part of William’s soul remained after he became a vampire.



_Buffy_


Remember the episode " Sleeper " - he told Buffy - " I go out and talking with some people, becuase I can talking with you ....... " That’s not what he says. He says, “So, yeah. I go and pass the time... with someone. But that's all it is is time,” http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/130_tran.html



mike13z50


Angel is a bad man who tries to do good things. This isn’t true for most of his history. 1898 – 1997(?) he wasn’t doing good things. BtVS S8. He’s “tried to do good things” literally less than 10% (unless merely not killing people qualifies as him doing good things) of the time he’s been cursed.



dorotea

* Child vampires are still likely to kill humans for food. Faith killed those child vampires (BtVS S8) because they attacked her and therefore were dangerous and needed to be dusted.



hayes62

* Spike could have reasoned that the Ender would first take his soul, then the rest of him. That whole thing can be reconciled.

Jack Shaftoe
09-04-13, 05:29 PM
This is untrue. You think Spike being paid to help the Scoobies doesn’t count as work?

I most certainly do. We saw him being paid, what, a handful of times? Even if it happened say a few times per month (which is a huge stretch, IMO) it's a far cry from holding a regular job.

And of course, at the time of "At the Dark" (the original point of contention) Spike hadn't been paid by the Scoobies even once, so your argument is a bit contradictory.


More than he does some random human woman.

Really? I am sure there must be some human women who don't annoy him nearly as much as Harmony usually does.


You agree with this. BtVS isn’t comparable given Buffy wasn’t paying the Scooby Gang.

No, I don't agree. If I did I wouldn't have, you know, objected to that statement of yours.

Of course it's comparable, don't you think Wesley, Cordelia and Fred could find much better paying jobs which would also be a million times less risky?


Not comparable – You may as well say the show was implying Buffy was attracted to the Master, and Kendra was attracted to Drusilla.

You may...if you confuse a superpower that more or less overrides free will with natural attraction. Otherwise you get perfect nonsense. Willow might as well only cast dark spells when having sex - as a precaution to pull her out when things get bad. As stupid as that twist was, I don't think it implied that, did it?


Vin and Sophie specifically tell Spike the only reason they won’t have sex with him is because they think he’ll be clingy.

Sure, people never lie when telling someone why they wouldn't go out with them/sleep with them. Never! It's perfect honesty, always, in that situation, right?

Stoney
09-04-13, 05:33 PM
I think Spike actually overheard one of the aunts saying that to the other as they walked off.

Vampire in Rug
10-04-13, 02:02 AM
I'm gonna try to spoiler tag the stuff that's off topic.



Edit: I just wanted to add that Christos Gage's opinions on stuff -- just like with Andrew Chambliss, Scott Allie, etc. -- is important simply because it informs what he writes in the comics. So, if his opinions of stuff get into the actual comic, they become canon.

So why are you trying to argue that some issues of A&F are non-canon?



* Harmony was already working for W&H before Angel and Co. arrived. She was in the secretary pool.

Yes, this is correct.



* My quote: “Buffy in 9.01 wanted to have sex with him.”

She was flirting with him. Buffy wanting to actually have sex with him is a conclusion that *you* came up with, that is your *interpretation*. Now, I'm not saying that isn't true. Maybe she did want to have sex with him in 9.01. It's also possible that she wasn't planning to have sex with him. Either way, it's not explicitly stated that her intention is sex. She was flirting with him, yes. Plenty of people flirt with other people that they may not necessarily want to have sex with. Also worth noting that she was incredibly drunk. I'm not saying that she didn't want to have sex with him, I'm saying that the situation is not as clear cut and concrete as you think it is. You're taking your personal interpretation of what you think would/should have happened, and claiming that it's canon.

Also, the party Buffy had in 9.01 is off-topic, its got nothing to do with this thread which is supposed to be about A&F #20. So this is the last I'm going to say about Buffy's party.



* My quote: “It’s clear if Buffy hadn’t shown up when she did Faith would have had sex with Spike (if he decided to have sex with her).”

Nothing suggests otherwise unless Faith heavily flirting with a guy, getting into bed with that guy, and continuing to heavily flirt with that guy including showing off her body to him somehow indicates she doesn’t intend to have sex with that guy.

She was sitting on the bed with him, she was not in bed with him. I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention that Faith was "showing off her body to him". And no, it's not clear that Faith and Spike were on the verge of sex when Buffy walked in. Again, that is your *interpretation* of the scene and it is one that I don't share. And again, whether Faith and Spike were or weren't about to have sex in BtVS season 7 is largely irrelevant to this topic. The fact remains that Faith was not interested in having sex with him in this latest issue of A&F.




This is true.

You really should stop quoting yourself just so that you can say "this is true". You have no idea how silly it looks when you cite yourself in order to back up your arguments.



* My quote: “She had sex with him in BtVS S7.”

According to BtVS S8, she did. Either that or she had sex with someone else in late BtVS S7 or before 8.01 happens.

You're wrong, they Spike and Buffy were not sleeping together during season 7. The most they had sex was *maybe* one time after the "fade to black", and even then it was left deliberately vague. If you want to make up your own canon about Buffy and Spike having sex during season 7 that's fine, but aside from noting that you are wrong, I don't wish to discuss it further because it's off-topic.


This isn’t a Buffy/Spike thread, but her having sex with him anytime after “Get it Done” (7.15) make sense.

This isn't a Buffy/Spike thread, it's the A&F issue #20 thread, but that hasn't stopped you turning this thread into "Spike's sexual conquests".


Um, yes, it is. This Issue had Spike having sex with Harmony for nonsensical reasons and had both Spike and Angel telling each other that they still wanted Buffy.[/spoiler]

Spike and Harmony seem to be "friends with benefits". Personally, I don't think it reflects greatly on Spike's character that he would want that kind of relationship with Harmony, but that's what happened in the story.


Um, no. Joss Whedon is the only arbiter of canon. David Fury wasn’t an arbiter of canon when he was saying Spike should never be in a relationship with Buffy. The AtS writers weren’t arbiters of canon when they wanted Angel to actually be in a relationship with Cordy. The writers are only arbiters of canon in terms of what actually makes it to the TV screen or comic book pages.

David Fury saying that Spike should never be in a relationship with Buffy was his opinion, not a statement on canon. Likewise with the AtS writers wanting Angel to be in a relationship with Cordelia. Joss also gave his *opinion* when he said that in TGIQ, he didn't like the scene where Andrew was greeted by two gorgeous women, instead Joss wanted a crowd of people to greet Andrew, both male and female. But, in the canon of the episode, Andrew was greeted by two women even though that went against Joss's *opinion* of how the episode should have went.



This was a crossover and things that happened in the Spike miniseries would/should have had a direct affect on Spike’s dealings in A&F 9.18 – 9.20.


According to Christos Gage, Spike's growth in his own miniseries *did* have an affect on Spike, but Spike tends to act a little differently when he's around Angel.



Something like this would have never happened during the TV run. Imagine “Sanctuary” (A 1.19) being aired before the AtS writers even read an outline of what happened in “This Year’s Girl” (4.15) and “Who Are You? (4.16)?

That's a pretty terrible analogy. Sanctuary was aired after Who Are You, just as the Spike issues of A&F were published after the Spike miniseries. The stories were presented to the public in the order that they should be read/watched.

I very much doubt that the writers on the TV show waited for the Faith episodes of BtVS season 4 to air on TV before they even started *writing* Sanctuary. That seems to be what you are suggesting Christos Gage should have done with A&F, waited for Spike's entire book to be published before he even started writing Spike's appearance in A&F. That is a terrible idea for a variety of reasons. And it's not how other publishing companies would approach a crossover between two ongoing titles in other comic book universes.


Unless Harmony suddenly is a lot kinkier than she was in BtVS S4, it doesn’t make sense that she’d be eager to be chained up for him if she didn’t still have feelings for him.

Maybe her tastes have evolved and she's become more sexually adventurous? I don't see how being eager to be chained up necessarily means that Harmony is *in love* with Spike.

[quote]
This is untrue. You think Spike being paid to help the Scoobies doesn’t count as work?

No, that doesn't count as "work" at all. How often did Spike actually get monetary payment from the scoobies? I can only think of a handful of times where that happened, I think its a stretch to suggest that helping the scoobies was Spike's employment or even remotely counts as "work".

One time I gave my friend five dollars to eat a chunk of wasabi. One time another friend bought me a drink if I approached a girl and gave her the cheesiest pick up line that he could think of. I also know a guy who used to sell pot for a living. Just because you get payment for doing something doesn't mean that it's a "job" or counts as "work".

Jack Shaftoe also pointed out as of "In the Dark", Spike hasn't been paid by the scoobies for anything yet, so no, he has not had to work for money yet, even if we consider your ridiculous definition of the word "work".

Spike mocked Angel's detective agency because he wanted to mock Angel. He'd have mocked Angel even if Angel were a plumber or a fireman or a volunteer at a soup kitchen. That's just Spike being snarky with Angel, it's not a statement on what Spike thinks about the ethics of the way Angel runs his business.

And even if Spike was trying to make a statement about Angel's business ethics, well who cares what Spike thinks? He's still killing people at this point, so I think it's laughable that he's in any position to tell Angel that it's wrong to charge people for anything.

Also, according to your logic where Angel should never be allowed to charge people, why is it okay for Spike to charge the scoobies?



Vin and Sophie specifically tell Spike the only reason they won’t have sex with him is because they think he’ll be clingy.

People aren't always honest when they reject someone. Even if they were being honest and were worried about Spike becoming clingy, it may not have been easy for Spike to change their mind about him even if he wanted them. You make it seem like it would be as simple as explaining to them that he's not clingy and they'd be good to go.



* Just because you and others like A&F and consider it the best title of post-BtVS S8 doesn’t mean anyone else has to like A&F or Gage’s writing.

I've seen several people say that it's the best book this season. Scott Allie has said that he's had people say that to him as well. Not everyone is going to share the same opinion, that goes without saying. I'm sure there is someone out there who thinks that Beer Bad and She are the best episodes.



* A&F should have dealt with the Twilight aftermath in a reasonable way.

I find this statement hard to take seriously because I know that the only way of dealing with Angel that is "reasonable" to you is to dust him. Sorry, that's not going to happen, the writers still have stories to tell with Angel so he's going to stay alive for now even if you consider that to be unrealistic or unreasonable. There is only one "reasonable" way that Gage could have dealt with Angel that would make you happy Mike, and that's to stake him in the first issue. So yeah, I can't take it seriously at all when you say that you want Angel and the Twilight aftermath to be dealt with in a "reasonable" way.


And it makes Angel even worse by introducing Pearl and Nash.

People complain when Gage apparently "whitewashes" Angel's crimes, and they still complain when Gage makes Angel's crimes even worse.


Who said this?

I do recall somebody insinuating that it was racist to have Gunn -a black man, pick up Angel -a white man, from the airport. I think that is a highly unreasonable criticism of the book. IMO, that kind of complaint is the kind of OTT, politically correct stuff that I just can't take seriously.



Likely millions of Buffyverse fans don’t consider A&F canon.

Well, by that logic, I guess millions of Buffyverse fans don't consider *any* of the comics to be canon.


This is what Gage has been saying since A&F started. He’s only said that Joss gave an outline during the writers’ summit and gave Gage stuff Joss wrote about Giles’s family.

My understanding is that Gage is in constant e-mail contact with Whedon, that Whedon can contact *all* of the writers through Scott Allie, and that sometimes all the writers have meetings together. I find it pretty outrageous that you think Whedon is unaware or doesn't care what Gage writes in the book. I think it's hilarious that you try to say that A&F is non-canon because Joss has limited involvement. How involved do you think Joss was with the Spike or Willow miniseries? Did he write any of the issues? You trying to say that A&F is non-canon because Joss isn't writing the issues is just an excuse for you to call the series non-canon because it doesn't mesh with your pre-established ideas.



* Given BtVS S9 is outselling A&F by probably over 10K copies (when factoring in TPBs, eventual HCs, and probable digital sales), the majority consider BtVS S9 the better book.

Sales are not always an accurate measurement of good writing. Stephanie Meyer's Twilight has sold more copies than whatever your favourite novel is, do you think that the majority of the public considers her writing to be great? How many terrible movies still manage to pull in millions at the box office. There are several critically acclaimed movies that didn't make much money at the box office. I can think of several terrible comic books that are selling really well, and many great comic books that get cancelled due to poor sales. Just because something sells, doesn't mean it's objectively "better" than something else.



* My quote: “A ‘shipper is simply someone who prefers one relationship (or wants one relationship) over another relationship.”

This is self-explanatory. Using Buffy as an example a ‘shipper would prefer Buffy be with ________ over any other Buffy pairing.

So I'd rather read about Buffy/Dowling than Buffy/Billy or Buffy/Dawn or Buffy/Joyce. Does this make me a shipper? By the way, I'm not remotely invested in Buffy/Dowling, just that I'd prefer it as a canon pairing than other, more offensive pairings that I can think of. Does that make me a shipper?



But, absolutely, I’d rather debate the guy actually writing the Issues than any person on a Board (who isn’t Joss).

But why? The guy writing the actual issues isn't the arbiter of canon. His opinion is immaterial and irrelevant. Why would you waste your time conversing with him?



* It’s silly to compare the canon from the TV Buffyverse (which will always be canon) to something in the comics (which may eventually no longer be canon.)

The comics are just as canon as the TV show. The show might be more widely recognised and known about, that doesn't mean that the comic aren't just as canon. If Joss wanted to, he could change something that was canon in the TV show just as easily as he could change something that was canon in the comics. Warren Mears, anyone? At this point, any future Buffyverse material that comes out will either fit itself into the canon somehow, or be a reboot.


Do you actually think you are an arbiter of canon?

No, hence why I don't try to tell people that an issue of the comic is non-canon just because I don't like it. You are trying to argue that A&F is non-canon because it doesn't fit with your ideas for the characters. You are essentially arguing that you are a higher authority on canon than Scott Allie and Christos Gage. You don't like something, so you get to declare whether it's canon or not. This is why I hope you stop telling other fans that they can't be the arbiter of canon. It would be highly hypocritical.


In other words, you are merely speculating and we never see Darla or Angel eating a baby or hear of them having done so.

Are you saying that *you* never speculate and try to use your own speculations as arguments in a thread? For what it's worth, Angel and Darla killed Holtz's baby, Darla tried to present Angel with a baby as proof that he could still be evil. We know that Drusilla liked to target children and Spike had no problem with it, sometimes he probably indulged her. Spike tries to point Olaf in the direction of some babies. I think it's pretty ridiculous to think that the fanged four didn't kill children and babies at some point, or that they were morally opposed to it.




* My quote: "I take his words at face value. In A&F 9.19, Gage had Spike saying Angelus could kill the total of Spike, Faith, and 12 Slayers “in a moment.”"

Spike equating Angelus’ danger to that of a full-powered evil Illyria isn’t his using a “figure of speech”. It’s something that Spike wouldn’t do, but apparently Gage is telling us that we don’t have to believe stuff Spike says or Faith says. So, this was simply bad writing from Gage.

It is a figure of speech. I don't know how you could read something that is clearly an exaggeration or figure of speech, claim that it's not a figure of speech and then say that it's bad writing when you read it wrong.

Alternatively, I could offer up a silly explanation of the same brand that you frequently use to explain away inconsistancies. Maybe now that Angel has fed from Dark Willow, he got a boost in power and now he *really is* strong enough to take on Spike, Faith and a dozen Slayers! If you refuse to read the scene as a figure of speech, then maybe Angel really can take on a dozen opponents after drinking from Willow. :lol:



* If Morgan had a phone number, she would have given it to Spike.

Is this based on something shown in the comic, or your own idea of what *should* have happened? Spike told her to sod off. What makes you think that he wouldn't have just thrown out her phone number even if she tried to give it to him? Nothing in the comic suggests that Spike has any intention of contacting her again. Nothing suggests that Morgan even has a phone. By all means, if you want Spike to have Morgan's phone number, then accept it as your personal canon. But you should at least admit that there is nothing whatsoever in the pages to support your idea that Morgan gave him her number. You should also admit that it's a perfectly valid interpretation that she didn't give him her number and he's got no way of contacting her.


He snarks about Angel’s being a private detective. Spike was mocking Angel’s idea that Angel was better than Spike and that Angel somehow ‘deserved’ the Gem of Amarra more than Spike did.

At this point, yeah, Angel did indeed deserve the Gem of Amara more than Spike did.


It’s not canon. The problem is you talk about the “IDW ongoing” as if its canon and use things in it in your arguments.

Citation needed.

Dark Horse has never outright said that the IDW Angel ongoing is non-canon. They've said that they probably won't reference plot-lines from IDW, but they have never confirmed that the stories are non-canon. They've always been of the stance that if readers enjoyed the IDW books, they could fit them into the timeline prior to season 8. I've spoken to Scott Allie at a convention and while he said that he hasn't read much of the IDW stuff, he said that it "probably" happened prior to season 8, but won't be referenced again.

Since you are not the arbiter of canon, Mike, I don't see how you are in a position to overrule Dark Horse and tell me something different regarding the canon status of IDW.

I think it's especially hypocritical when you try to argue that several non-canonical stories about Spike and Drusilla are canon, yet you question the canon status of ATF, A&F and you declare the other IDW stuff to be definitely non-canon. You'll accept non-canonical stories if you like them and they're about your favourite characters, but when it comes to an Angel story that you don't like, you'll call it non-canon even if the outline came from Joss himself. As for IDW stuff that didn't come from Joss, Dark Horse has been deliberately vague about whether it's maybe canon or not. I don't see how you are in a position to clarify something that Dark Horse hasn't ever said, especially when your own personal canon contains stories about Spike and Dru that are non-canon.



* Eyghon would have come back in A&F whether Giles was dead or not. Giles could have told Buffy and Co. about Eyghon.

How could Giles tell Buffy about Eyghon if Giles thought that Eyghon was already long dead?




* Angel and Liam are not the same “being”. Liam was a human.

I guess pre-bite Oz and post-bite Oz are not the same "being", since Oz was born 100% human, not a werewolf. After Jordy bites him, original Oz is gone and is replaced by an entirely new "being" who is a werewolf.

I guess Cordiela and demon-Cordelia are separate beings, since Cordy was born a human.

I guess Slayer's become new "beings" when they are called too, since originally they had simple human level strength.




Huh? Anyway, Joss says that part of William’s soul remained after he became a vampire.

Perhaps you could provide the quote? Are you sure Joss was being literal, and that Spike really did have a special soul fragment that other vampires don't have? Somehow I doubt it.

MikeB
13-06-13, 06:51 AM
Jack Shaftoe


don't you think Wesley, Cordelia and Fred could find much better paying jobs which would also be a million times less risky? This was clearly portrayed in the show.

Wesley only started working for Angel because he was broke and hungry. Then when he’s fired, he tells Virginia he has no marketable skills.

Cordelia only started working for Angel because her acting career wasn’t going well. Without working for Angel, Cordy would have been a starving artist. And she apparently had an aversion to going to college if it required her needing to get student loans.

Fred clearly could have gone back to school and would have been successful as a professor or a doctor or whatever, but after being in Pylea she felt she was better useful to the world fighting demons.

Anyway, the Scoobies’ lives were likely more dangerous than the Fang Gang’s lives and none of them ever thought they should get paid to save lives and save the world.


* My quote: Vin and Sophie specifically tell Spike the only reason they won’t have sex with him is because they think he’ll be clingy.

Nothing suggests this wasn’t the truth.