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View Full Version : Angel & Faith #17 Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)



zianna
19-12-12, 04:09 AM
Two more reviews

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/12/18/tuesday-review-angel-and-faith-17/


http://leykimayri.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/my-review-of-angel-faith-17-death-and-consequences-part-2/#more-285

If you want to ask anything, I'll be around for some minutes.
And I hope that nobody was expecting that that was a soulless Giles, right?
It's the demon, animating the bodies..

Vampire in Rug
19-12-12, 04:26 AM
It's Eyegon animating Giles? Do we get an explanation for why Eyegon is still around? This issue is out this week, right?

zianna
19-12-12, 04:35 AM
No, as far as I remember, there is no explanation of why or how he's alive.
But he is able to animate multiple bodies at the same time, together with people who have felt unconscious.
Now that I think about it, there was something in a flashback, they were trying to get rid of him and he said that he'll be back because they have his mark now and they belong to him, body and soul (young Giles and his friends).
So the last part of the soul that Angel needs is the one that Eyegon has, he wasn't surprised that he is alive, he just didn't know where to find him, until they found out that Ethan is alive, which can't be happening because he died last season. So they searched for properties belonging to Ethan, and they are heading there (Angel and Faith).
The dead slayer comes back to life, but of course it's not her.
Last panel gives us Eyegon and also Ethan with a bullet in his head.
So, Giles and Ethan belong to the demon, body and soul.
As for how the demon is alive, there is no explanation in this issue.

Morphia
19-12-12, 11:54 AM
I like the shout out to Olivia. Nice touch.

ubi4soft
19-12-12, 06:01 PM
So, Giles and Ethan belong to the demon, body and soul.
And Angel too? Because he let Eyghon inside himself back in The Dark Age? Could this be just Angel trying to avoid having his own soul in in demons possession? What about Jenny Calender's?

Nice touch with the "twist" - brutal reminder of Angel killing Giles (and Jenny)

zianna
19-12-12, 06:16 PM
And Angel too? Because he let Eyghon inside himself back in The Dark Age? Could this be just Angel trying to avoid having his own soul in in demons possession? What about Jenny Calender's?

Nice touch with the "twist" - brutal reminder of Angel killing Giles (and Jenny)

No, Ethan and Giles had summoned the demon and had made a tattoo with the demon's mark on them. The first time they got rid of the demon, he said that they belong to him now body and soul. And we know he has a part from Giles's soul, according to Angel.
Angel was just a temporary vessel.

shipperx
19-12-12, 06:37 PM
Well, I guess it's best that Angel be possessed by something (especially when things go pear shaped. That way they can claim it wasn't him, but something walking around in an Angel suit. Y'know, like they do every time Angel screws up in order to to tell the audience that holding him accountable for anything would be mean on their parts...

(Which brings to mind, don't you love how they slipped in this issue that it hadn't been Angel but Twilight in control. It makes me want to go back and find the interview where Allie was claiming that the comic was 'more mature' than the show because 'this time' Angel wasn't hijacked. Are Allie's pants retroactively singed by retcon?)

Jack Shaftoe
19-12-12, 06:42 PM
I didn't like the issue. Eyghon not only happens to be alive somehow but for some unexplained reason has a massive power boost in the "magicless" world. Faith says Angel owes her, so she swears him to do the resurrection properly...something he already intended doing anyway. I mean, Faith had hesitated about this all season long, other characters have warned her, now suddenly she is more convinced in the soundness of the idea than even Angel?

Angel "checked out" the mortuary records and found out they had no criminal records or money problems. How the hell did he manage to do that? Break into the police computers? I know he did detective work in LA but it was more of a "we will break and door and rough up the suspects" kind of thing than checking records. Later they find where Ethan lives in the internet - a little too convenient. Angel also immediately guesses Eyghon must be possessing Ethan, again way too easy.

Best thing about the issue is again Nadira. I loved how she was suspicious of "Giles" and the "resurrected" Marianne. Buffy can learn a thing or two from her about trusting the likes of Severin or Koh. Let's hope that when Angel inevitably ends up saving her, she won't be pathetically grateful and become his BFF.

So I guess the idea is that Eyghon possessed Ethan when he died. And he somehow escaped a secret prison. Lucky for Buffy she has the mark of Eyghon removed or she would have come back after S5 as Eyghon!Buffy.

zianna
19-12-12, 06:51 PM
I didn't like the issue. Eyghon not only happens to be alive somehow but for some unexplained reason has a massive power boost in the "magicless" world. Faith says Angel owes her, so she swears him to do the resurrection properly...something he already intended doing anyway. I mean, Faith had hesitated about this all season long, other characters have warned her, now suddenly she is more convinced in the soundness of the idea than even Angel?

Angel "checked out" the mortuary records and found out they had no criminal records or money problems. How the hell did he manage to do that? Break into the police computers? I know he did detective work in LA but it was more of a "we will break and door and rough up the suspects" kind of thing than checking records. Later they find where Ethan lives in the internet - a little too convenient. Angel also immediately guesses Eyghon must be possessing Ethan, again way too easy.

Best thing about the issue is again Nadira. I loved how she was suspicious of "Giles" and the "resurrected" Marianne. Buffy can learn a thing or two from her about trusting the likes of Severin or Koh. Let's hope that when Angel inevitably ends up saving her, she won't be pathetically grateful and become his BFF.

So I guess the idea is that Eyghon possessed Ethan when he died. And he somehow escaped a secret prison. Lucky for Buffy she has the mark of Eyghon removed or she would have come back after S5 as Eyghon!Buffy.
Well it's not the end of the arc, it's the middle of it. If there are any explanations about Eyghon, surely they wouldn't be in this issue that he was he cliffhanger, but in the following ones, right? Lets give Gage the benefit of the doubt until the arc is over.

KingofCretins
19-12-12, 07:09 PM
I have mixed feelings. Good issue, not quite as good as the last one. I think my main objection here is...

... wait for it...

... waaaaaaait for it...

... that of course it makes total sense that Eyghon has been reinvented as this whole new, much more dangerous, Agent Smith-level problem after the putative "end of magic". I mean, of course. FFS.

*Ahem*

And, a second but lesser FFS to the change in Eyghon in general. That would have had me all "wait, what?" even before the Seed. Now, that said, since the Agent Smith similarity is obvious to anybody that saw the Matrix sequels, I hereby demand they use this gag (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyNyHark4xk) at some point during the iterations of various Eyghonites.

I mean, once you accept and set aside the BS parts above, it's actually a pretty clever and engaging little plot, using Ethan to steal Giles, the general continuity fill-in about Ethan and, astoundingly, candid reference to Angel's time as Twilight.

Also, between Nadira, Sophronia, and Lavinia, and even to a lesser extent Alastair, I think we can safely say, with authority, which side of the Dark Horse house of Buffyverse creative control has a handle on how to work in new characters and make them interesting and eventually essential without them being intrusive. It's not even close. Every AnF OC has been better done than every Season 9 OC, period.

Really happy to see Faith blow up at Angel. Mixed feelings on her deciding to double down on Giles' resurrection, though. It's too much like the old Faith who does what she wants because it hurts to much to be the one who has to make the tough decisions.

Jack Shaftoe
19-12-12, 07:11 PM
Maybe he will come up with some semi-plausible explanation but I think it's a bit of a waste to use Eyghon for yet another zombie horde attack. We have already way too much of this. Eyghon was interesting in The Dark Age because he a very personal villain for Giles and allowed the Scoobies to learn about Giles's past. Here he seems to be mostly useful for the fake out with Giles and allowing Angel to finish his quest. Could be interesting if Angel has to kill "Giles" once again but we wouldn't need the army of zombies for this.

zianna
19-12-12, 07:19 PM
I was reading the comments in Georgia's site, and she says that she will be hosting an interview with Gage next month. And a second one, but she doesn't say with who.
http://leykimayri.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/my-review-of-angel-faith-17-death-and-consequences-part-2/#comments

Dipstick
19-12-12, 08:19 PM
Faith turning on Angel was actually a pretty dislikable moment for her. It was Faith's decision to support Angel and to keep her support of him from the slayers. Faith pretty much proved that if her lies worked out and the slayers never found out that she was buddy-buddy with Angel, Angel never would have heard this rant from Faith.

It's not Faith genuinely recanting her previous position that Angel's capability for redemption goes beyond his crimes as Twilight itself- and instead the havoc that her redeeming Angel does to her slayer-rep. It's not Faith deciding that Giles's resurrection is morally objectionable. This is nothing more than a temper tantrum of Faith that her precious image with the slayers is compromised.

I'm pretty critical on Buffy for hiding Angel at the start of S3. However, Faith's conduct gives me new respect for the fact that Buffy owned her decision to hide Angel and didn't turn around to yell at Angel in Revelations for costing her friends' lives and respect because Buffy decided to hide him.

BAF
19-12-12, 08:49 PM
I have Angel & Faith # 17,"Death and Consequences Part II of IV."

I thought this was a strong issue overall.The Giles alive reveal is pretty much what was speculated on.Eyghon animating Giles's corpse.But it was very freaky knowing what's inside Giles's body especially the scene where Gilesghon shows off his broken neck,

Eyghon is also animating Ethan's corpse thus explaining the Steve Morris cover.Eyghon is basically possessing as many bodies as he can now including Nadira's slayer friend.Props to Nadira for asking questions and being suspicious.Unfortunately too late.This issue gave her more personality than just angry and troubled.So great to see that.

Also loved the Ripper flashback and how that sets up what's going on in the present.

Faith's blowup at Angel has been building all season.It wasn't a question of if it would happen but when.And Angel totally owns that and realizes that he owes her now too and will do whatever she asks.I'll admit I was surprised initially that what she wants is for Angel to finish the job of bringing Giles back.I thought she would want him to drop the Giles resurrection plan.But thinking about it in retrospect,I can understand why she wants Angel to finish his plan.

1)Faith invested so much in this.She lost the respect of her slayers and this has taken a toll on her so understandably she wants Angel to finish it so everything she invested and lost won't be for nothing.

2)Whether it's smart or not.Whether it's too dangerous,Faith wants Giles back too and if there is a chance,she'll take it.

So in retrospect,I think I get why the only thing Faith wants from Angel now to pay her back is this.I do think Angel & Faith will be going there separate ways at the end of the season and we'll have a different second monthly in season 10

Even though it was exposition,I really enjoyed the scenes of Angel,Faith and Giles's aunts gathering the info of where Giles's body is and who/what is behind it.It was written lively IMO.

Of course Eyghon has the last piece of Giles's soul.

Also liked the little bit of Angel and Faith realizing it's Eyghon and the Aunts having no idea what they're talking about.

Another great issue.

Dipstick
19-12-12, 09:51 PM
I may have been too harsh on Faith, depending on where she genuinely is.

One of two things is happening:

a) Faith doesn't really want to cut ties with Angel. In her heart of hearts, she feels more loyalty to Angel than to the slayers- exemplified by her choices. She also may be addicted to the intrigue of having a Secret Friend and Helping the Hopeless.

However, she throws a temper tantrum because she had to give up the slayers for her relationship with Angel.

OR

b) Faith would *like* to cut ties with Angel. She is realizing that she values her relationships with the slayers more than her relationship with Angel. Heck, maybe Faith is realizing that some people can't be helped and Angel is one of it. However, Faith is so determined to resurrect Giles that she'll double-down on the resurrection and *then*, cut ties with Angel once Giles is alive.

If A is true, Faith is being completely unlikable. If B is true, I have much more sympathy for Faith. It could be a mixture of A and B.

It would be easier for Faith to enjoy being Lady of the Manor with her inherited property, cut ties with Angel entirely and grovel to the slayers, perhaps using her money to buy friends.

However, Faith is further undermining her relationship with the slayers, surrendering more money and property than she ever hoped to see to a potentially resurrected Giles and even risking that he could change the will, on seeing how she's been associating with Angel. I don't know if Faith is thinking that far down the road on her inheritance but we can take the fact that she doesn't seem to be considering it as a strong gesture of adoration of Giles or stupidity.

If Faith's choices are more about her love of Giles than her addiction to being Angel's Evil Anonymous Sponsor or even her caring for Angel, I'm more sympathetic to Faith. However, I do still see her rant to Angel as a tantrum that she lost her reputation among the slayers more than a Righteous Talking-To.

Emmie
19-12-12, 10:06 PM
My take on Faith:

Despite her moral qualms about resurrecting Giles early in the season, the trauma Faith's gone through in her father using her and bringing back old wounds and her losing her sister Slayers -- it's demoralized her to the extent that she's now more demonstrably desperate for Giles' return than Angel.

It knocked my head back having Faith demand that Angel NOT give up no matter what. As if he'd been showing any signs of giving up thus far.

Somehow Faith has taken on the role of the driving force behind the resurrection. Which I find intriguing because it makes it more about her. Rather than propping up Angel's plan, she now wants it for her own reasons.

She wants Giles back -- she's pissed and in pain and too much loss has made her demand the impossible to help heal the wounds.

I think this is very much more about Faith loving Giles than being Angel's sponsor. I'd say she's officially traded in the sponsor role when she says they're "even" and her debt is paid. And now he owes her.

So, this is about what Faith wants. After losing everything that gave her life meaning, she's looking to resurrect the man who helped give her life meaning a second time around. The first man to do that, help her find the path to good, was Angel. And now Faith's looking to Giles.

I think she's just exhausted all her inner emotional strength. That strength that enabled her to help the Slayers find the path. And now she's falling back into wanting father figures to help her stop feeling empty and wrong -- to ease the pain of being rejected by her sisters.

Maggie
19-12-12, 10:16 PM
My take on Faith:

Despite her moral qualms about resurrecting Giles early in the season, the trauma Faith's gone through in her father using her and bringing back old wounds and her losing her sister Slayers -- it's demoralized her to the extent that she's now more demonstrably desperate for Giles return than Angel is.

It knocked my head back having Faith demand that Angel NOT give up no matter what. As if he'd been showing any signs of giving up thus far.

Somehow Faith has taken on the role of the driving force behind the resurrection. Which I find intriguing because it makes it more about her. Rather than propping up Angel's plan, she now wants it for her own reasons.

She wants Giles back -- she's pissed and in pain and too much loss has made her demand the impossible to help heal the wounds.

I think this is very much more about Faith loving Giles than being Angel's sponsor. I'd say she's officially traded in the sponsor role when she says they're "even" and her debt is paid. And now he owes her.

So, this is about what Faith wants. After losing everything that gave her life meaning, she's looking to resurrect the man who helped give her life meaning a second time around. The first man to do that, help her find the path to good, was Angel. And now Faith's looking to Giles.

I think she's just exhausted all her inner emotional strength. That strength that enabled her to help the Slayers find the path. And now she's falling back into wanting father figures to help her stop feeling empty and wrong -- to ease the pain of being rejected by her sisters.

ITA. The scene I loved best in #16 was her tearing up at the memory of Giles. I think her fit with Angel was partly because she wants one guy in the world she can count on -- and that's obviously not Angel. But I also think it was a way of lashing out at Angel. YOU aren't the guy I can count on, so you damned will bring back the guy I can count on -- the one YOU murdered, etc.

I read the issue last night and wasn't as thrilled with it as I was with #16. But I do love where they have Faith emotionally right now. And the irony of it all is that her last scene with Giles had him being more worried about Buffy than her (for perfectly reasonable reasons). She's such an aching ball of emotional need...almost certain to always be let down. I feel for her.

Dipstick
19-12-12, 10:16 PM
Emmie, I hear what you're saying. And I did that it's definitely likely that Faith has given up on Angel and she's only doing this for Giles.

However, I do have to wonder why Faith doesn't try to make this project happen with the slayers if she's genuinely over Angel. Faith's been there through every step of figuring out to resurrect Giles. She has Angel's knowledge. The combined might of her and the slayers could recover all of Giles's artifacts. I would imagine that the slayers would warm to resurrecting Giles, who I believe has something of a good reputation among the slayers- despite the friction between him and Buffy in S8. Or if they wouldn't, Faith could trade her knowledge on resurrections for Marianne to get Giles back.

Also, I'm pretty sure that, at the end of the season, Faith is going to be allies with Angel again. I believe Scott Allie said that no one is switching comics on the long haul in BTVS S10.

dorotea
19-12-12, 10:18 PM
If Faith's choices are more about her love of Giles than her addiction to being Angel's Evil Anonymous Sponsor or even her caring for Angel, I'm more sympathetic to Faith. However, I do still see her rant to Angel as a tantrum that she lost her reputation among the slayers more than a Righteous Talking-To.

See, that's my beef with Faith from the very beginning of the season - she proclaims herself the slayerettes' sponsor and tutor - yet her actions ever not compliant with her words. The dead Marianne was doing more to the wretched Slayers team than Faith ever did , with much less of the finance/resource in her disposal. It was Marianne who offered her place for the needy Slayers to crash in not Faith. It was Marianne who would let them stay with her and talk to her about their issues, while Faith was busy running around 'redeeming' Angel via having interesting adventures/expensive vacations in faraway places, giving away Giles' money to Boston mob - to save her daddy's ass, or plain spending it on new outfits and little red cars. I mean... all that pathos would have been appropriate if Faith really acted as a leader and caretaker but was rejected because of her indulgent leniency towards Angel.

Regardless of Faith mixture of motives, her actual hidden motive IMHO has always been 'being a part of a family', and all she was truly doing this season was carving herself that little corner of a Universe with new surrogate family attached. So she first lost Giles, then tried to replace the empty space with both Angel and the Slayerettes - but could not handle either and went for the quick and dirty solutions (first with Mohra's blood, then with Drusilla's pet). When that did not work she has fallen back into self-pity and now on quick tantrums. I am not even sure if the writer is aware of what he laid out for Faith as her personal arc - but so far it does not look that sympathetic at all.

So, now that both of her surrogate family replacements did not work Faith is once again finding the quick and dirty solution - if Angel can bring Giles back via dangerously insane resurrection plan, she would take Giles as a father figure back and be done with both Angel and the despondent Slayers team. So much for putting consistent effort into any kind of a relationship or making a long-standing commitment. But at least this is very much in character for Faith since her first appearance in S3.

PS
Just wanted to add that I am in fact extremely pleased with the issue - both because of Faith finally getting to be a character I know instead of perfect Mary Sue who is doing so well and excelling in being rich and powerful ingenue/saviour, and because of the Honey B's coupled with Sony Walkman, reading glasses, and an unfinished cup of tea.

Emmie
19-12-12, 10:33 PM
ITA. The scene I loved best in #16 was her tearing up at the memory of Giles. I think her fit with Angel was partly because she wants one guy in the world she can count on -- and that's obviously not Angel. But I also think it was a way of lashing out at Angel. YOU aren't the guy I can count on, so you damned will bring back the guy I can count on -- the one YOU murdered, etc.

I read the issue last night and wasn't as thrilled with it as I was with #16. But I do love where they have Faith emotionally right now. And the irony of it all is that her last scene with Giles had him being more worried about Buffy than her (for perfectly reasonable reasons). She's such an aching ball of emotional need...almost certain to always be let down. I feel for her.

Yes, you've teased out the twisty nature of her demands and how they're no doubt playing in her mind. Trying to reinvest in Angel, then when he fails, demanding he give her the guy he killed.

I love how the structure of this season is playing out. Faith's spent the entire season trying to initially build Angel back up, help him become the guy who'd once helped save her. Return the favor. She's been trying to resurrect Angel from catatonia and moral deprivation -- he was comatose the way she once was.

And now she's given up on saving Angel. It can't be done. She's tried. But maybe she can resurrect Giles. And Giles never needed her to save him. Giles somehow managed to save himself -- he had the inner strength to see and do evil and pull himself back from the brink. Which makes me wonder who was Giles' sponsor after the evil Eyghon days of yore. Did he straighten up on his own? I think Faith sees him as pulled-himself-up-by-his-moral-bootstraps redeemed.

As much as this season's plot is about Angel's obsession with resurrecting a ghost, Faith's even more so. It's really rich character work for Faith -- so I'm super pleased.

---

Sidebar: I was pleased to note how the text made clear that Angel/Twilight was in charge of the Twilight organization (since I know that's been a common debate about Angel's culpability for the Slayers killed throughout Season 8). That Rayne was executed while under his watch, ultimately.



Emmie, I hear what you're saying. And I did that it's definitely likely that Faith has given up on Angel and she's only doing this for Giles.

However, I do have to wonder why Faith doesn't try to make this project happen with the slayers if she's genuinely over Angel. Faith's been there through every step of figuring out to resurrect Giles. She has Angel's knowledge. The combined might of her and the slayers could recover all of Giles's artifacts. I would imagine that the slayers would warm to resurrecting Giles, who I believe has something of a good reputation among the slayers- despite the friction between him and Buffy in S8. Or if they wouldn't, Faith could trade her knowledge on resurrections for Marianne to get Giles back.

I just don't think that avenue is open to her now. Or, at least, I don't think Faith would see it as open to her. Faith's spiraling from losing the Slayers and being marked as the Betrayer to their cause. Her feelings of shame would prevent her from approaching them to make an alliance. Whereas with Angel, she feels like she has the upperhand still, that he owes her, that this is his fault.

She's reacting based on pain. Avoiding dealing. That means she can't face the Slayers for another emotional beating.

And I imagine part of her so desperately wanting Giles back is because he helped her find a way to sponsor the Slayers in the first place. Which is ironic as she's wanting him back for that, meanwhile the story cuts to Eyghon-possessed-Giles killing those Slayers. No Faith, you really really don't want a resurrected Giles. This is not the way to win back your sisters.

shipperx
19-12-12, 11:06 PM
More or less saying 'You-- I mean Twilight...' seems more obfuscation than admission. (Paraphrasing from quick-read-through this morning because I don't have the text at hand at the moment.)

Could've stopped at 'you.'

Vampire in Rug
20-12-12, 12:51 AM
King, you're absolutely right that A&F has produced far, far better original characters than BtVS s9. Lavinia, Sophia and Alistair are all better characters then Billy, Dowling, Anaheed and arguably Koh. Even the new villians like Nash, Pearl and Whistler are better than Severin and Simone. Better art too. It's just a better series all around.

ShipperX, sometimes I wonder if you read through the issue looking for things to be offended over. The line is "But you ran that facility. I mean Twilight did." There's really nothing incorrect about that line, I mean Angel was Twilight. One might say "you sired Drusilla, I mean Angelus did." Or one might say to Willow "you flayed Warren, I mean Dark Willow did." There's nothing inherently incorrect about that line, it's not shifting the blame onto someone else because we know that Twilight was Angel. I don't see what the problem is. On the very next page Angel says: "a general working for... well, me, shot him in the head." So no, nothing is being retconned or whitewahsed here, not if you are giving the book a fair reading instead of actively looking for things to get upset over.

Yes they could have just left it at "you", but they chose to specify that it was when Angel was playing the Twilight role. Presumably this is for casual fans who may not remember exactly when Angel ran a facility where Ethan was killed.

And technically, since Angel was still wearing the mask at that point; everyone who worked at the facility answered to Twilight, not "Angel". It would be like Alfred Pennyworth saying to Bruce Wayne "remember when you beat the snot out of the Joker, I mean, when Batman did?" It's a specification.

Overall I felt this was a pretty solid issue. Not great, but it was still better than season 9 has been. I still don't like Eyghon being back. He was supposed to be dead. Also in the show he only possessed one host at a time, he didn't possess multiple at once. I also don't like the fact that he has a corporeal form. I always liked it better that he was a non-corporeal demon who possessed his hosts from another plane. Although he does look cool. Issacs draws a cool looking demon.

I'm glad that it's not really Giles. So sick of resurrections.

I wonder about Ethan. Is it really going to be Ethan or will it be another Eyghon host? I'm guessing that it's going to be Ethan. I mean, why would Eyghon need to go to Giles funeral if he's already got Giles' body? Why would Eyghon need a separate property for Ethan's possessed corpse to live? Either way, I do wonder how Ethan's body escaped cremation though.

I wonder, apart from Sophia and Lavinia, who else at the funeral should have recognized Ethan? Buffy should have surely noticed him, also Xander, Willow and possibly Dawn. I can't remember, has Faith ever actually met him yet?

zianna
20-12-12, 01:25 AM
I wonder, apart from Sophia and Lavinia, who else at the funeral should have recognized Ethan? Buffy should have surely noticed him, also Xander, Willow and possibly Dawn. I can't remember, has Faith ever actually met him yet?
There were two viewings, one for people like Faith, dealing with supernatural stuff, and the other for normal people. Faith didn't stay for the second one, probably neither did Buffy, or Xander, or Willow.

KingofCretins
20-12-12, 01:30 AM
I have no problem with the "you", because I think that it was Faith expressly doing what I think all of them have implicitly done throughout with regard to Angelus. As far as I'm concerned, it's always been a social accommodation. Referring to Angelus or Twilight as a distinct metaphysical "other" is no different than late 19th century Southern gentry referring to the war between the states as "the recent unpleasantness".


King, you're absolutely right that A&F has produced far, far better original characters than BtVS s9. Lavinia, Sophia and Alistair are all better characters then Billy, Dowling, Anaheed and arguably Koh. Even the new villians like Nash, Pearl and Whistler are better than Severin and Simone. Better art too. It's just a better series all around.

In fairness, I'd have put Dowling there before they put his integration into Buffy's life into Ludicrous Speed between "Guarded" and "Billy"/"Welcome to the Team", but that robs it of credibility. In further fairness, if they had done Billy as a purely interstitial story like a year ago with no Buffy cameo, and if they hadn't been so intent on delivering the goods to meet the demand for him that they had Stu'd the hell out of him, and if there was some unpreposterous way to bring him into contact with and working with Buffy besides "oh, I live here now and you're as close to me as an aunt or older sister" insta-relationship, he could have been as good too.

By contrast, Nadira comes in a scene here or there with clearly sympathetic motives but a lot of conflict and complexity. Lavinia and Sophronia (I can't remember how they shorten their names off hand) come in with this over the top bombast implying one-off characters, and then float around in the background until you look around one day and, suddenly, pace Xander, "this is the group".


Overall I felt this was a pretty solid issue. Not great, but it was still better than season 9 has been. I still don't like Eyghon being back. He was supposed to be dead. Also in the show he only possessed one host at a time, he didn't possess multiple at once. I also don't like the fact that he has a corporeal form. I always liked it better that he was a non-corporeal demon who possessed his hosts from another plane. Although he does look cool. Issacs draws a cool looking demon.

I am on the fence about Eyghon. I utterly laugh off how it should make sense that he should have all these heretofore unmentioned abilities, and that they be manifesting "without magic", but as fans of TVTropes will note, the various "Rule of ____" tropes are often some of the most worthwhile. This one would be the unestablished Rule of (novel threat), if you will. Eyghon 2.0 has almost Borg-like potential if done well, he presents a challenge the likes of which we haven't seen much of, something they really only dabbled with for Jasmine.

And, in fairness to the plot, I don't know off-hand if he isn't still inhabiting a host, and what we saw there is just him inhabiting something suitably more nasty than ordinary human meatsuits.


I'm glad that it's not really Giles. So sick of resurrections.

Don't get excited. They've set out a puzzle that solving will necessarily advance the resurrection plan.


I wonder about Ethan. Is it really going to be Ethan or will it be another Eyghon host? I'm guessing that it's going to be Ethan. I mean, why would Eyghon need to go to Giles funeral if he's already got Giles' body? Why would Eyghon need a separate property for Ethan's possessed corpse to live? Either way, I do wonder how Ethan's body escaped cremation though.

I wonder, apart from Sophia and Lavinia, who else at the funeral should have recognized Ethan? Buffy should have surely noticed him, also Xander, Willow and possibly Dawn. I can't remember, has Faith ever actually met him yet?

Well, we see Ethan at the burial, but I think the point is that Ethan was a person who would believably be at Giles' funeral and thereby could get close enough to steal his body. Going to the burial after just sells the cover, it would be a bit suspicious.

How believable that Ethan-ghon could have moved about unnoticed at the funeral really depends on how many mourners were there. I don't remember any text one way or another before this issue. Nor, in fact, do I remember any mention of which of the characters that do know Ethan having been there (for instance Xander, Willow). The cover establishes Buffy and we knew she was there for his estate to be settled, but I don't remember if any of the others made the trip or not. So it could have been a case where he just needed to avoid Buffy -- who would not have been at her most vigilant regardless.

Vampire in Rug
20-12-12, 01:33 AM
I didn't realize that viewings and funerals were the same thing. I figured that "viewing" was like a legal kind of thing to confirm that the body is indeed the person who has been reported as dead. I figured that there was only one funeral but I guess I'm mistaken.

The cover shows Ethan who has apparently unbandaged his face (I assume the bandages were his disguise) with apparently no bullet wound on his head, standing near a mourning Buffy, Sophia and Lavinia. I guess the cover is not meant to be taken literally though.

KingofCretins
20-12-12, 01:39 AM
I didn't realize that viewings and funerals were the same thing. I figured that "viewing" was like a legal kind of thing to confirm that the body is indeed the person who has been reported as dead. I figured that there was only one funeral but I guess I'm mistaken.

The cover shows Ethan who has apparently unbandaged his face (I assume the bandages were his disguise) with apparently no bullet wound on his head, standing near a mourning Buffy, Sophia and Lavinia. I guess the cover is not meant to be taken literally though.

A viewing, or visitation, is usually just a window of time in which the body lies in state for people to make private acknowledgements and observances. There's usually a line, like there would be a receiving line for a married couple. Then just idle discussion and grieving together. A funeral is where whatever service and eulogizing or benediction is actually performed for the deceased, and is followed usually immediately by burial.

I always assume covers aren't literal.

Vampire in Rug
20-12-12, 01:59 AM
I assume that Willow, Xander and Dawn would have been at the funeral. I mean, the guy was a pretty important figure in their lives.

So the body was stolen after the viewing but before the funeral. If Eyghon was possessing Ethan, he'd have no reason to go to the funeral at all. So I assume Ethan ran into the Sophia and Lavinia at the second viewing, the one that Buffy and Faith didn't attend but various creatures like cyclopses did?


And, in fairness to the plot, I don't know off-hand if he isn't still inhabiting a host, and what we saw there is just him inhabiting something suitably more nasty than ordinary human meatsuits.

Pretty sure that's meant to be Eyghon in the flesh. Nadira calls Giles a pawn insinuating that he's not "the one in charge", then we meet the big demon who differentiates himself from the pawns. If Eyghon is possessing some gigantic demon as well as Giles, then the demon and Giles are both pawns. Eyghon seems to make a point that the demon is not a pawn, the context implies that this is him in his true form.

Not to mention that Eyghon previously got spanked when he tried to possess Angel because the demon inside Angel was tougher. This demon looks considerably more nasty than a vampire, if Eyghon can't possess Angel, then (admittedly, I'm judging by looks alone here) I don't think he should be able to possess the big scary mofo at the end of this issue either. Plus the demon has those blue patches on the forehead that appeared when he possessed Randal and Jenny and tried to possess Angel. I'm pretty sure it's Eyghon in the flesh, which I don't like. I prefer it if Eyghon doesn't even have a physical body.

Dipstick
20-12-12, 05:14 AM
See, that's my beef with Faith from the very beginning of the season - she proclaims herself the slayerettes' sponsor and tutor - yet her actions ever not compliant with her words. The dead Marianne was doing more to the wretched Slayers team than Faith ever did , with much less of the finance/resource in her disposal. It was Marianne who offered her place for the needy Slayers to crash in not Faith. It was Marianne who would let them stay with her and talk to her about their issues, while Faith was busy running around 'redeeming' Angel via having interesting adventures/expensive vacations in faraway places, giving away Giles' money to Boston mob - to save her daddy's ass, or plain spending it on new outfits and little red cars. I mean... all that pathos would have been appropriate if Faith really acted as a leader and caretaker but was rejected because of her indulgent leniency towards Angel.

I'm really hearing this and I think it needs to be said. However, one can argue that Faith, a product of the Mean Streets and prison, isn't culturally equipped to know from setting up a trust for the slayers for educational or psychological help. Or emotionally equipped to know how to take in slayers for shelter and comfort them.

However, yes, Faith has more financial resources at her disposal than any other slayer that we know of except maybe Kennedy (who is doing her own capitalist-part to get slayers on their feet). Faith is aware of the fact that the slayers have been financially and emotionally adrift with her "meat grinder" critiques. She enjoyed a somewhat vaulted position in the slayer hierarchy.

IMO, Faith's main problem is that Faith didn't make the slayers' well-being a priority. Faith put up *Angel* in Casa de Giles; Marianne took in the slayers. I think some of that is loyalty to Angel. Some of that is, as you say, Faith grasping to a familiar daddy-figure to give her the effects of family in the form of appreciation and guidance instead of the stresses of being a caretaker/older sister to a bunch of younger girls. Some of it is that Faith's model for doing good (modeled by Angel and Buffy) is fighting side-by-side and giving speeches on Doing the Right Thing. It's not setting up a college trust for the slayers or turning Giles's mansion into an inviting, beautiful refuge for slayers.

However, this storyline does act as a rebuttal to those who hate on Buffy/Willow/Xander for not doing enough to provide for Faith and keep her on a Good Path in S3. Faith is failing at the same task and she's 24 instead of 18 (assuming that Faith was 17 in S3), has loads of money instead of being entirely on her parents' dole and in high school, has a world of experience instead of being a rather insulated high schooler/college freshman and is dealing with slayers who initially looked up to her.


I just don't think that avenue is open to her now. Or, at least, I don't think Faith would see it as open to her. Faith's spiraling from losing the Slayers and being marked as the Betrayer to their cause. Her feelings of shame would prevent her from approaching them to make an alliance. Whereas with Angel, she feels like she has the upperhand still, that he owes her, that this is his fault.

She's reacting based on pain. Avoiding dealing. That means she can't face the Slayers for another emotional beating.

My gut tells me that the slayers would have agreed to such an alliance for Faith's expertise and magical relics. However, I can see how Faith wouldn't see such an option as open to her. Still, it's problematic that Faith doesn't try to beg the slayers to work with them if she's so recommitted to making the slayers her partners and rejecting Angel.


the story cuts to Eyghon-possessed-Giles killing those Slayers. No Faith, you really really don't want a resurrected Giles. This is not the way to win back your sisters.

Well, Faith doesn't want a Eyghon-posssessed resurrected Giles. If there was a way to get Actual!Giles back without his soul having experienced heaven because it was divided between magical effects, I'd call that a victory on its face.

Emmie
20-12-12, 05:45 AM
Yeah, I think Faith's not really aware of what she wants, consciously speaking. As much as she wants to have a relationship with the Slayers, I think she has trouble imagining herself as capable of fixing what's broken once she's been labeled the evil betrayer. Her history with that is not so great.

Plus she's reacting in the moment. She might rethink things later on, but she just got ripped a new one by her Slayers. It's like Buffy getting kicked out in "Empty Places" -- the rejection pushes Faith away just as it did Buffy. Only for Faith, it pushes her even deeper into Angel's crazy plan.


Well, Faith doesn't want a Eyghon-possessed resurrected Giles. If there was a way to get Actual!Giles back without his soul having experienced heaven because it was divided between magical effects, I'd call that a victory on its face.

Right. I was just more thinking of the juxtaposition as an ironic reminder to "be careful what you wish for".

vampmogs
20-12-12, 08:55 AM
Brief thoughts for now, but I did like this issue;

- That was an unexpected turn for Faith. I honestly thought the climax of A&F would be Faith and Angel at odds with each other over resurrecting Giles, and maybe it still will be, but this threw me for a loop. It also makes complete sense. I agree with Emmie that it's a really significant turning point to have Faith get on board with the plan not because she owes it to Angel, or she's enabling him, but because she needs Giles back. This is a hugely significant turning point in the story and changes things completely. And Maggie is spot on about Faith being so needy that she's bound to always be let down. That pretty much sums up Buffy/Faith to a T.

I don't blame Faith for holding Angel responsible for the breakdown of her life. Of course she has to accept a great deal of responsibility herself, but I've always been very sympathetic as to why Faith feels she owes him and Angel has dragged her down into a huge mess. That said, as sympathetic as I am to why she's suddenly so desperate to get Giles back, I don't agree with it and hope she changes her mind.

- I'm glad Ethan wasn't resurrected

- "Giles'" neck twist was a great moment and a gruesome reminder of the horrible way he died. I loved that.

- I thought Nadira was really badass in this issue. I love how she takes command and isn't up for fighting flunkies. Although, I think it's safe to say Maryanne wouldn't have wanted this.

- Loved the shout to "Olivia Williams." Which I assume is not only a reference to Olivia from S4 but the British actress Olivia Williams (aka the amazing Adele Dewitt from Whedon's Dollhouse).

This issue wasn't quite as strong as #16 but I still thought it was really great. Hopefully I'll post more thoughts later that are a little more original than simply agreeing with everybody else :lol:

cheryl4ba
20-12-12, 04:43 PM
My take on Faith:

Despite her moral qualms about resurrecting Giles early in the season, the trauma Faith's gone through in her father using her and bringing back old wounds and her losing her sister Slayers -- it's demoralized her to the extent that she's now more demonstrably desperate for Giles' return than Angel.

It knocked my head back having Faith demand that Angel NOT give up no matter what. As if he'd been showing any signs of giving up thus far.

Somehow Faith has taken on the role of the driving force behind the resurrection. Which I find intriguing because it makes it more about her. Rather than propping up Angel's plan, she now wants it for her own reasons.

She wants Giles back -- she's pissed and in pain and too much loss has made her demand the impossible to help heal the wounds.

I think this is very much more about Faith loving Giles than being Angel's sponsor. I'd say she's officially traded in the sponsor role when she says they're "even" and her debt is paid. And now he owes her.

So, this is about what Faith wants. After losing everything that gave her life meaning, she's looking to resurrect the man who helped give her life meaning a second time around. The first man to do that, help her find the path to good, was Angel. And now Faith's looking to Giles.

I think she's just exhausted all her inner emotional strength. That strength that enabled her to help the Slayers find the path. And now she's falling back into wanting father figures to help her stop feeling empty and wrong -- to ease the pain of being rejected by her sisters.

THIS is what makes me hate Faith just a little bit more than usual and that is saying something. So suddenly Giles is the one who Faith loves? The one who gives her meaning? Really?

Or maybe this is just another example of Faith trying to weasel in and take something else away from Buffy. Cause you know, trying to kill Xander, wanting Angel as her own, sleeping with Riley and getting skeevey with Spike in the basement isn't enough. Now she needs to claim Giles too?

IMO, Faith feels empty and wrong because she has always been empty and wrong. Latching on to all the men that mean something to Buffy is never going to change that. Yeah, I don't care for Faith much. Never have.

Dipstick
20-12-12, 05:30 PM
THIS is what makes me hate Faith just a little bit more than usual and that is saying something. So suddenly Giles is the one who Faith loves? The one who gives her meaning? Really?

Or maybe this is just another example of Faith trying to weasel in and take something else away from Buffy. Cause you know, trying to kill Xander, wanting Angel as her own, sleeping with Riley and getting skeevey with Spike in the basement isn't enough. Now she needs to claim Giles too?

IMO, Faith feels empty and wrong because she has always been empty and wrong. Latching on to all the men that mean something to Buffy is never going to change that. Yeah, I don't care for Faith much. Never have.

What, because Buffy loved Giles first, that means that Faith can't love Giles too?

Faith put in a lot of time in the last year of Giles's life working for Giles, caring about Giles, defending Giles, learning from Giles, starting to commit serious crimes for Giles- all the while, he was on the outs with Buffy for like, three years.

Even early on, Faith displayed a regard for Giles beyond his relationship with Buffy. I loved it when Faith defended Giles to Gwendolyn Post. Faith gets no status or "one over Buffy" by defending Giles, seemingly a Watcher on Probation, to Gwendolyn Post. Or how Faith honestly and openly admires how young and cute he is for a Watcher at their first meeting.

There's a lot that Faith did wrong here and I've called her out on those. However, Faith more than proved that she honestly admires and cares for Giles.

dorotea
20-12-12, 08:14 PM
I would not go as far as to say Faith does not/did not love Giles or that she does not have a strong connection to him. Her stance on his resurrection though is highly ambiguous and it appears that per se, Faith does not have a solid moral ground to stand on resurrection-wise ( and neither do I by the way). She is ready to change her position based entirely on her inner need of filling that void ( of missing family). It does not make her a bad person, but it does not paint her as a solid reliable person either.

Not to mention that her rivalry with Buffy is probably still smoldering in the background of her mind. The fact is - Faith have been enjoying the benefits of Giles inherited wealth all that time that Buffy was drudging in the coffee shop and it never occurred to Faith to offer Buffy financial support - same as it never occurred to her to invite needy Slayers to crash in her place, or at least we have not been shown anything to that effect.

I would have liked it much better if Faith at the very least voiced out her opinion on the relatively more acceptable morality of resurrecting somebody whose soul appears to be in pieces and part of it bound to Eyghon vs resurrecting somebody who safely passed to heaven. That could have been a turning point to me. Instead all Faith latched to was her sudden need to have Giles back - now that she failed in both of her ongoing 'family' projects.

Dipstick
20-12-12, 09:31 PM
I would not go as far as to say Faith does not/did not love Giles or that she does not have a strong connection to him. Her stance on his resurrection though is highly ambiguous and it appears that per se, Faith does not have a solid moral ground to stand on resurrection-wise ( and neither do I by the way). She is ready to change her position based entirely on her inner need of filling that void ( of missing family). It does not make her a bad person, but it does not paint her as a solid reliable person either.

I don't know whether wanting to resurrect someone because you love that person and miss them means that you're not solid or reliable or that it's not solid moral ground. I didn't think less of Dawn for trying to resurrect Joyce or Team Angel for trying to resurrect Fred. Yes, Dawn, as a minor child, should have minded her elders'. Team Angel were on shaky moral ground by making like they were going to assign Wolfram & Hart employees the task. However, you don't have to believe that the soul of the deceased is hell to be a stable, reliable person who still wants to resurrect your beloved.

I'd hate to repeat myself but on this, Willow bears Big Culpability here. Yes, Willow said it was a bad idea and that Buffy went through hell after her resurrection. However, Willow never indicated that Giles wouldn't be happy to be alive if he was resurrected and Faith took that to its logical end.


Not to mention that her rivalry with Buffy is probably still smoldering in the background of her mind. The fact is - Faith have been enjoying the benefits of Giles inherited wealth all that time that Buffy was drudging in the coffee shop and it never occurred to Faith to offer Buffy financial support - same as it never occurred to her to invite needy Slayers to crash in her place, or at least we have not been shown anything to that effect.

I agree with this. Faith has been very selfish with all of Giles's money and property- except with Giles's murderer.

cheryl4ba
20-12-12, 09:45 PM
What, because Buffy loved Giles first, that means that Faith can't love Giles too?

Faith put in a lot of time in the last year of Giles's life working for Giles, caring about Giles, defending Giles, learning from Giles, starting to commit serious crimes for Giles- all the while, he was on the outs with Buffy for like, three years.

Even early on, Faith displayed a regard for Giles beyond his relationship with Buffy. I loved it when Faith defended Giles to Gwendolyn Post. Faith gets no status or "one over Buffy" by defending Giles, seemingly a Watcher on Probation, to Gwendolyn Post. Or how Faith honestly and openly admires how young and cute he is for a Watcher at their first meeting.

There's a lot that Faith did wrong here and I've called her out on those. However, Faith more than proved that she honestly admires and cares for Giles.

Yeah, I think that you like Faith a little more than me, which is cool. I just can't get behind her. Never could. Where Buffy may have been able to forgive her, I never have.

Side note...Dru seemed to also think Giles was pretty hot as she sucked his face off in Becoming but that didn't erase how deep down evil she is or the fact that she was perfectly willing to see him die. Same with Faith the very next season as she tries to send the whole world to hell, Giles as good looking as he was, with it.

Emmie
20-12-12, 09:57 PM
I agree with this. Faith has been very selfish with all of Giles's money and property- except with Giles's murderer.

Oh this is interesting. I think Giles' intent in leaving his worldly possessions to Faith was to help her with her mission of helping Slayers -- that's what he signed on for when he wanted to be partners with her after No Future For You.

Giles left the Slayer book to Buffy as she inherited his mission, leaving her the last vestiges of his Watcherly wisdom to aid in her mission. Whereas he left his wealth to Faith in order to help her in her mission of aiding the Slayers.

So Faith's using those resources to nigh exclusively help Giles' murderer -- yeesh.

Likewise, I think that if Faith hadn't been so preoccupied with helping Angel, perhaps the Slayers would've been better off with her by their side, helping them fight. I think if given the choice between Giles getting to live again or Slayers lives being safeguarded -- Giles would choose to let his death stand.

dorotea
20-12-12, 10:03 PM
I agree with this. Faith has been very selfish with all of Giles's money and property- except with Giles's murderer.

Does this mean you do not accept the Twilight possession as a solid fact? It is OK, I would just remember not to discuss this issue with you in the future.

And as a matter of fact I agree that Faith flaunting her housing of Angel in Giles former quarters (and housing him there without his consent while he was catatonic) was improper, but quite in character for her. From the plot perspective I understand why they did it - easy access to Giles journals and artifacts etc, plus the whole bits of Gile's soul being housed within Angel's body Dollhouse style. Still, the whole London part was/is perhaps the most disturbing moment of this particular story for me - even though I realize it was supposed to be exactly that - disturbing, as they were aiming for the horror noire story with 'no heroes'. IMHO, that's why the series was not received well by the majority of the fandom and why the sales are flaunting- moral grounds compromise over the thrilling settings and 'juicy' character arc. I certainly hope that A&F won't get the second season, even though Angel and Giles are my favorite characters in the verse ever, (with Willow being in the same league trio).

Dipstick
20-12-12, 10:25 PM
Oh this is interesting. I think Giles' intent in leaving his worldly possessions to Faith was to help her with her mission of helping Slayers -- that's what he signed on for when he wanted to be partners with her after No Future For You.

Giles left the Slayer book to Buffy as she inherited his mission, leaving her the last vestiges of his Watcherly wisdom to aid in her mission. Whereas he left his wealth to Faith in order to help her in her mission of aiding the Slayers.

Very interesting point. I was looking it more from, "How could Faith, in all consciousness, see slayers put through the meat grinder and a destitute Buffy and not help?" I wasn't thinking of it in terms of Faith violating a tacit agreement with Giles.

On one hand, I'm pretty sure that Faith knows that Giles wouldn't want Angel enjoying his property and she's disregarding Giles's wishes. I'm not so sure whether Faith got the message that Giles left her his property to use it for the slayers. After the will was read, Faith seemed to fixate on how she understands that it's weird and unexpected that she got the estate and Buffy didn't.

Still, whether Faith understood why Giles left her the estate or not, Faith knew that Giles wanted her helping slayers in their day-to-day lives and she's not doing it.

But then on the other hand, I could see Faith observing how Giles had these wonderful financial resources and he left her 17-year old self to rot in a crappy motel room that she couldn't pay the rent for and maybe heard stories about how Giles left for England while Buffy and Dawn spent their first year without a mother providing her and observed how Buffy had to steal to fund her army and Giles didn't chip in. I've always fanwanked that Giles bankrolled the Potential Army in S7 (in terms of food, transportation, excess electricity) but it's nothing but a flimsy fanwank that I'm not too attached to.

It *would* be in-line with Giles's past behavior for Faith to infer that Giles wanted her to preach to the slayers but not to help them financially in the name of self-sufficiency. Even though I think rich people who decide to help impoverished children with preaching about morality and duty instead of financial help are Dickensian or Jane Eyre villains. And there's little lower than that.


Does this mean you do not accept the Twilight possession as a solid fact? It is OK, I would just remember not to discuss this issue with you in the future.

When Angel accepted the Twilight possession, knowing that he'd be used to kill people, he assumes criminal responsibility for everyone that he did kill. Angel should have known that Giles could very well be on Twilight's Kill List.

vampmogs
20-12-12, 10:27 PM
Oh this is interesting. I think Giles' intent in leaving his worldly possessions to Faith was to help her with her mission of helping Slayers -- that's what he signed on for when he wanted to be partners with her after No Future For You.

I never saw it that way. I thought he left her his possessions to make up for his neglect of her in S3, when as her official Watcher he left her to stew in a crappy motel in the wrong side of town with no money and no support. He would have assumed that she would continue their mission but I don't believe Giles would be so stringent that she must only stick to Slayers exclusively.

Jack Shaftoe
20-12-12, 10:34 PM
Giles left his money to Faith so that Buffy could get the "fun" lack of money storyline. Again. For Faith and Angel Giles's inheritance is what the bug ship is for Spike - allows them to go on adventures without worrying about mundane things like money. So as fun as this discussion is I very much doubt the way Faith handles that money is intended to be seen as problematic, to be honest.

norwie
20-12-12, 10:38 PM
I never saw it that way. I thought he left her his possessions to make up for his neglect of her in S3, when as her official Watcher he left her to stew in a crappy motel in the wrong side of town with no money and no support. He would have assumed that she would continue their mission but I don't believe Giles would be so stringent that she must only stick to Slayers exclusively.

Somewhere in S8 Faith states her new mission goal: Help the "lost" slayers. And Giles is on board with this. Thus, i think Giles did indeed think about his will in depth, what he could leave each of the women to further their own agenda (and not his own agenda). In short, i agree with Emmie. :)

vampmogs
20-12-12, 10:49 PM
Somewhere in S8 Faith states her new mission goal: Help the "lost" slayers. And Giles is on board with this. Thus, i think Giles did indeed think about his will in depth, what he could leave each of the women to further their own agenda (and not his own agenda). In short, i agree with Emmie. :)

Faith could have continued that agenda without claiming ALL of Giles's worldly possessions, and certainly without frivolous items like his horses (#40). There are obviously other reasons to leave Faith everything. Maybe it’s because she was the only person he was still really close with in his finale year? Or maybe it is because he feels bad that she’s lived a life of poverty and that he was a rather terrible Watcher (and adult) to her in S3 when he left her to stew in that horrible motel? It’s possibly a combination of all three, but I don’t think it was all about helping Slayers exclusively.

Dipstick
20-12-12, 10:56 PM
Faith could have continued that agenda without claiming ALL of Giles's worldly possessions, and certainly without frivolous items like his horses (#40). There are obviously other reasons to leave Faith everything. Maybe it’s because she was the only person he was still really close with in his finale year? Or maybe it is because he feels bad that she’s lived a life of poverty and that he was a rather terrible Watcher (and adult) to her in S3 when he left her to stew in that horrible motel? It’s possibly a combination of all three but I don’t think it was all about helping Slayers exclusively.

"Exclusively" or not, you do seem to agree that Giles *partly* left Faith the money to continue their mission to help the slayers. That *was* one of Giles's motives, no? Faith hasn't given a dime to the slayers, hosted them for one sleepover/sharing session with some good food, etc.

I agree with Emmie in that he mostly left the money to Faith to help the slayers. Giles also has cause to feel badly about not helping Buffy in S6- but he left her with nothing.

vampmogs
20-12-12, 11:11 PM
"Exclusively" or not, you do seem to agree that Giles *partly* left Faith the money to continue their mission to help the slayers.

Yup.


That *was* one of Giles's motives, no? Faith hasn't given a dime to the slayers, hosted them for one sleepover/sharing session with some good food, etc.

But never for these reasons. I think he left Faith the money so she could continue helping Slayers without the added stress of not knowing where she was going to stay or how she was going to eat that night. Remember, in S8 he first finds Faith living in a horrible apartment with empty kitchen cupboards and she was a mess. Not just because of her surroundings, no, but it makes sense he felt it contributed her to her bleakness. I don't think he expected her to offer financial handouts to other Slayers or expected her to host parties for them at her house etc. We certainly never saw Giles do this in any capacity and are given no hint that they did this together throughout S8.

Dipstick
20-12-12, 11:25 PM
But never for these reasons. I think he left Faith the money so she could continue helping Slayers without the added stress of not knowing where she was going to stay or how she was going to eat that night. Remember, in S8 he first finds Faith living in a horrible apartment with empty kitchen cupboards and she was a mess. Not just because of her surroundings, no, but it makes sense he felt it contributed her to her bleakness. I don't think he expected her to offer financial handouts to other Slayers or expected her to host parties for them at her house etc.

Why does Faith need the entirety of Giles's estate to talk to the slayers and send them on missions or do other things that don't require money? Why does Giles owe Faith all of his estate to make up for S3? To the exclusion of Buffy who Giles also left impoverished.

How is it much of a help for a wealthy woman to make her life's missions to preach to the slayers while she holds onto her riches while the younger slayers are homeless or uneducated or traumatized? If I was a homeless slayer squatting in Marianne's apartment, unclear of what to do after I left high school to join Buffy's army and my parents disowned me as a freak, and wealthy Faith came along to talk about letting go of anger and pain but couldn't be bothered to buy me a sandwich or invite me to crash in one of her many bedrooms, I'd tell her that she could shove her advice up her ass.


We certainly never saw Giles do this in any capacity and are given no hint that they did this together throughout S8.

Giles did a lot wrong in that area. I've criticized him for being so rich and giving so little. However, even he wrote Buffy a check to cover immediate household expenses. He spent his money flying around the country to find Buffy in between S2 and S3. He spent money flying around the world to find and protect slayers after S6. He offered Buffy a job in his store in S6.

My fanwank is that Giles covered groceries, electricity and any extra weapons for the extra slayers in S7 since Buffy didn't even have enough to cover her and Dawn in S6, Spike was broke, Willow only had what her parents or scholarships give her to cover her own expenses, Anya would laugh in someone's face if they asked her to pay a dime of her money, and I don't believe that Xander has the cash on hand to pay for a bunch of girls immediately.

Emmie
20-12-12, 11:39 PM
I never saw it that way. I thought he left her his possessions to make up for his neglect of her in S3, when as her official Watcher he left her to stew in a crappy motel in the wrong side of town with no money and no support. He would have assumed that she would continue their mission but I don't believe Giles would be so stringent that she must only stick to Slayers exclusively.

If the rationale for leaving his wealth to whomever was solely based upon his feeling guilt for abandoning them in their times of need in the past -- Buffy would've received money, too. (Of course, when the will was drawn up, Buffy had the money of the Slayer organization, so Giles would've figured she didn't need the financial assistance the way Faith would.)

I don't think Giles wrote his will solely out of guilt. If so, why not feel guilty for leaving Dawn with a bunch of early 20 somethings in Season 6? Or leaving Buffy to hold down the Hellmouth fort while dealing with depression while also unemployed and without a college education and no good job prospects to help her support her sister? And at least that's a guilt which Giles acknowledges textually, whereas I don't think he ever fully acknowledged that failing with Faith -- which makes it questionable whether he fully saw that as a failing of his. I think Giles felt he failed Faith in moral support more than financial support in S3.

I think Giles wrote his will out of seeing whom he could help the most and in what ways. For Buffy, he saw her perhaps losing sight of the mission as the world was changing so drastically, so he left her the Vampyr book. For Faith, she was still living in squalid quarters when he came to her in Cleveland. So his estate would help her find security for the rest of her life, something she'd need if she was going to help others (if you can't take care of yourself, it's hard to take care of others). So giving Faith security was a necessary step in helping her to help other Slayers.

I think Giles would be practical with his will. If he were being ruled by guilt, then I think he'd leave more to Buffy. Simply because I think Buffy inspires more feelings of guilt in him -- as, from his perspective, he's failed to keep her from dying twice and he's abandoned her and betrayed her numerous times. Seriously, his guilt over Buffy haunts him in ways I don't really see as comparing to failing to get Faith out of the motel in S3. Let's also not forget that during Season 8, Giles kept so many secrets from Buffy that it would've made him feel even MORE guilty about how he was leaving her out of the loop when it came to a prophecy which he feared centered upon her.

I think the reason he gave his estate to Faith was because he thought she had a greater need, whereas Buffy didn't need him anymore. It wasn't about his feeling overwhelmed by his past failings as a Watcher, because if so, Buffy wouldn't won the jackpot.

I think Giles was thinking practically in writing his will because he viewed Faith as a partner, whereas he had a "father's love" for Buffy. Typically, when leaving inheritance, it's kept between family; that's why it was a shock for Buffy to not receive the majority of the estate, because she was the closest thing he had to a daughter. If Giles were writing his will based upon emotional reasons, and traditional reasons of 'family', then it'd go to Buffy, imo. However, he eschewed the emotional reasons and attachments, I think, choosing to put his estate to its best possible use. The strongest bond he shared with Faith was about their shared redemption through helping Slayers -- Giles redeemed himself post-Eyghon by becoming a Watcher, and Faith was redeeming herself by helping other Slayers. That was how Giles connected with Faith -- he saw himself in her, he saw her need for a mission to help redeem her past. And I think his estate was meant to fund that mission more than anything else. I don't think he intended she live in the lap of luxury simply because she'd grown up in poverty and he'd failed to house her in S3. I think Giles was more concerned with the future of Faith's moral character, above all.

And I'm not saying Giles would be strict about the money only going towards the Slayers. I'm saying that I think Giles would want to help Faith and her mission to help the Slayers. And I think he'd view it as a violation of trust to have his murderer* living in his home and using the resources in a dangerous mission to resurrect him that could very well endanger the greater good which Giles dedicated his life to (*I hold Angel culpable for being possessed since he signed on and made himself vulnerable to those forces, forces which Buffy ultimately fought off).

When someone leaves their entire estate to you, I think it's implied that you honor their memory and their wishes in how you use those resources. Faith's... really not been doing that. Attempting to rehabilitate Giles' murderer versus helping Slayers? Losing her own moral center and meaning in life? Not only is she not helping the Slayers and pursuing the mission she and Giles set out on, she's also not using Giles' money to take care of herself. Faith helping the Slayers was the means for her to redeem herself, to feel that she's worthwhile and good -- and without that mission, she's losing her own moral center, she's reeling and making seriously questionable choices.

Ultimately, I think Giles was interested in helping Faith find redemption. And he sees redemption as accessible through helping the fight for the greater good. His becoming a Watcher was a means of helping to save the world. Faith helping Slayers from slipping into darkness again is about saving the world. Helping Angel restored to sanity, helping Angel resurrect Giles to alleviate his guilt, these are selfish, arguably petty motives that have little to do with the greater good and might even endanger the greater good. For instance, instead of working to resurrect Giles, how about Angel and Faith realize that Whistler, Pearl and Nash need to be put down before they endanger the entire world.

Heck, a theme of the season might as well be: How to Dishonor and Desecrate the memory of Rupert Giles.

vampmogs
20-12-12, 11:57 PM
Why does Faith need the entirety of Giles's estate to talk to the slayers and send them on missions or do other things that don't require money?

She doesn’t. Which is exactly why I said that he has obviously left her his estate for reasons other than just their mission to help Slayers.


Why does Giles owe Faith all of his estate to make up for S3?

Objectively speaking, I don't believe he does but I can certainly see why he'd feel that way. And in a broader sense Giles recognises that Faith has lived a life of poverty, that he failed her terribly in that area in S3, and that when he found her in S8 she was again living in a derelict apartment with bare cupboards.


To the exclusion of Buffy who Giles also left impoverished.
Giles didn’t “leave” Buffy impoverished, at least not deliberately so, because Giles had no way of foreseeing the future. Giles had to have had his will re-written midway through S8 (to include Faith who he’d previously had no real relationship with) and during that time Buffy was both very rich and very powerful. She had her own castle, fortresses, private jets and limos, remember?


How is it much of a help for a wealthy woman to make her life's missions to preach to the slayers while she holds onto her riches while the younger slayers are homeless or uneducated or traumatized? If I was a homeless slayer squatting in Marianne's apartment, unclear of what to do after I left high school to join Buffy's army and my parents disowned me as a freak, and wealthy Faith came along to talk about letting go of anger and pain but couldn't be bothered to buy me a sandwich or invite me to crash in one of her many bedrooms, I'd tell her that she could shove her advice up her ass.

This is all well and good but we’re talking about what Giles wanted Faith to do with the money he left her and, as you say below, Giles has always been a very rich man who had gave very little. So why would you assume he wrote his will with the intention of Faith handing out his money when he never felt it was necessary to do it himself?


However, even he wrote Buffy a check to cover immediate household expenses.

He had known Buffy for 6 years and had a “father’s love for the child.” Completely different from handing out pity checks to Slayers he’s barley met before, or expecting Faith to do the same. Before he got close to Faith there was no talk of giving her any money to take care of herself unless it was in exchange for her services (assassinating Gigi) and he offered her no help in S3 when she was seventeen and living in a bad part of town. Again, I thought this whole conversation was about whether Faith is somehow going against what Giles intended for her to do with his money (which is a pretty damning accusation IMO) and if he intended for her to be giving cash handouts then that’s very uncharacteristic of him.


He spent his money flying around the country to find Buffy in between S2 and S3. He spent money flying around the world to find and protect slayers after S6. He offered Buffy a job in his store in S6.

Sure. But I don’t have any reason to believe Faith that wouldn’t do the same if she had to get Nadira out of a pickle in, say, Brazil. And whilst I certainly agree that her loyalty to Angel has interfered with her relationship with the Slayers I don’t believe she has been as neglectful as you say she has. I also genuinely believe Giles would be far more sympathetic to why she’s torn between Angel and the Slayers.

Emmie, we're actually far closer on this then I realised. I more or less agree with you EXCEPT I'm not as convinced Giles would be against Faith helping Angel, his murderer or not. I do agree wholeheartedly that he would be against Faith helping Angel to resurrect him (and using his money to do that) but I’m not ready to damn Faith for that because I have no reason to believe she’s aware of his personal objections to resurrection. She wasn’t around in S6 and I don’ think it’s something that had to have come up in their time together in S8.

I just reject any idea that Giles intended for Faith to give his money away to other Slayers or hold parties for them at his house. In #16 he warns Faith of getting too attached to her charges to the point she starts placing their wellbeing over her own, and I think he would believe some distance from them is healthy. I believe he gave Faith his estate primarily so she was well-taken care of and thus in a better position to help others, as you say. I also believe it was about fixing past wrongs when he neglected her in S3 and about recognising she's lived in poverty her entire life. I don’t think it was about passing on that fortune to her fellow Slayers.

Emmie
21-12-12, 12:24 AM
I don't think Giles would condone Faith helping Angel in his mission. He might understand her desire to help Angel redeem himself -- but that would involve helping Angel fight for the greater good of the world. And that's not how Faith is helping Angel.

Instead, by using Giles' worldly goods in Angel's mission to resurrect Giles, Giles' legacy is in effect being used to restore Giles to life.

That's the epitome of solipsism. That's the opposite of what Giles would want. Giles is the guy who dedicated his life for the greater good. Who tried to smash the Seed to end the madness even though he was vastly outmatched.

He risked his life to keep the world safe. He wouldn't want anyone risking the world to bring him back.

So no, I really don't think Giles would have much sympathy for Faith's methods. He might see her as well-intentioned, but he'd hold no patience for her methods. The misguided nature of her methods in helping Angel are as wrongheaded as Willow's resurrecting Buffy in Season 6 -- and that's the sort of anger Giles would level at Faith.

Instead of helping to ensure the greater good, Faith is encouraging Angel's guilt and ego-driven mission to "undo it undo it" rather than redirecting Angel towards the mission of helping the living.

Hypothetical: Once Angel brings back Giles, will Jenny be next? She no doubt has parts of her soul held in mystical objects. Which of Angel's victims is next to be resurrected? It's neverending because Angel's guilt can never be absolved.

I think Giles would see the fruitless, toxic nature of feeding and enabling Angel's current obsession with resurrecting his dead victims. And he'd feel sympathy for how lost Faith was, but he'd be justifiably angry too.

Faith knew Giles well enough to know he was about the greater good. I think, bone deep, she knows he'd view what she's doing as a violation of his wishes and their joint mission to help lost Slayers.

However, I think Giles would have massive sympathy for Faith losing her way because she felt alone and instead of a partner who looked out for her best interests, she got Angel. Giles would no doubt see Angel as the corrupting influence.

vampmogs
21-12-12, 12:36 AM
I don't think Giles would condone Faith helping Angel in his mission. He might respect her trying to help Angel redeem himself -- but that would involve helping Angel fight for the greater good of the world. That's not what Faith is doing.

That's what I meant. I was responding to the bolded part of your comment;


And I think he'd view it as a violation of trust to have his murderer* living in his home and using the resources in a dangerous mission to resurrect him that could very well endanger the greater good which Giles dedicated his life to

Which is similair to what you said here;



So Faith's using those resources to nigh exclusively help Giles' murderer -- yeesh.

It's the emphasis on Faith helping "Giles' murderer" or having his "murderer" stay in his home that I disagree with. I genuinely believe Giles would be sympathetic to why Faith wants to help rehabilitate Angel and that Giles would think it's the right thing to do. I don't believe he would consider it a violation of his trust that Faith took a catatonic Angel into his home and I think he would be proud of her.

I actually believe if you could ask Giles what he was more angry about, he'd still resent Angel more for killing Jenny than when Angel killed him whilst possessed. And Giles was still big enough to aid Angel in Amends despite everything Angel did to him in S2.

When I was talking about Faith not having to help Slayers “exclusively” that’s what I meant. Giles wasn’t a Slayer but he still identified with Faith and her mission because he too had done terrible things in his past and saw this as a way of making up for them. Their focus was primarily on Slayers but I don’t think Giles would consider that Faith had “gone off mission” because she’s chosen to help a non-Slayer too.

I've already said that I agree with you wholeheartedly that Giles would be against Faith helping Angel to resurrect him. However, there's no proof whatsoever that Faith is aware of Giles' personal feelings about resurrections so I don't believe she's knowingly going against Giles' wishes here. Whenever she has expressed concern about the plan it's always about whether Angel is just being selfish, or deluding himself, or if it will turn out badly, but she's never thought or said anything which suggests she's aware of Giles' personal stance on this.

KingofCretins
21-12-12, 01:46 AM
It's really not inappropriate to call Angel Giles' murderer. It is relevant context. It is quite like Wesley pointing out Faith getting pastries subsequent to his brutal torture, only Giles can't register that indignity on account of being actually dead.

It is very much open to debate how Giles would feel about Faith participating in Angel's rehabilitation, because, I don't think Giles would necessarily or even likely agree that Angel is doing anything rehabilitative here. I can't think of a time when Giles wasn't or that it wasn't contextually clear he wouldn't have been (such as in "Bargaining") opposed to resurrecting anybody. Other than for the obvious possibility of bias, I can't think of why he would feel differently here.

Which is to say, Giles might not say Faith was off mission by trying to help a non-Slayer. I think he would either say, with no hesitation, that what she is doing right now is not actually a species of "helping". I don't know what if any training is provided to people in AA who wish to sponsor others, but I assume it's a given that near the top of the procedures is "identifying the best happy hour specials for the member may sound like it's helping, but it isn't".

Honestly, this feels more to me like Faith has hit a stress wall and has faltered. Poured herself a glass, one might say. By her own words, this really isn't about helping Angel at all at this point because he has pulled her over the cliff more than her dragged him back, and she just wants Giles to come and make sense of things again. It's sympathetic, but it's by no means a good idea.

Maggie
21-12-12, 01:58 AM
Faith could have continued that agenda without claiming ALL of Giles's worldly possessions, and certainly without frivolous items like his horses (#40). There are obviously other reasons to leave Faith everything. Maybe it’s because she was the only person he was still really close with in his finale year? Or maybe it is because he feels bad that she’s lived a life of poverty and that he was a rather terrible Watcher (and adult) to her in S3 when he left her to stew in that horrible motel? It’s possibly a combination of all three, but I don’t think it was all about helping Slayers exclusively.

I'm closest to your take on all of this. I think it was about what Giles thought Faith and Buffy needed, respectively. Faith came from a poor background and that's part of her insecurity/attitude. Buffy had a solid family, solid support. OTOH, because she was the second slayer, Faith's calling as a slayer has always been somewhat optional. Buffy has had the burden of being The Slayer. So he addresses them in the way that fits where they are. Faith gets a financial solidity she has never known. Buffy gets a reminder of who she is and what that means.

I've always found it very touching because at the end of the day Giles obviously loved them both very much -- to have thought about who needed what. Buffy might struggle with money, but poverty doesn't form her the way it forms Faith. Faith may be keen on her vocation, but it doesn't form her the way it forms Buffy. Giles knew his girls.

vampmogs
21-12-12, 02:14 AM
It is very much open to debate how Giles would feel about Faith participating in Angel's rehabilitation, because, I don't think Giles would necessarily or even likely agree that Angel is doing anything rehabilitative here.

As I've said, several times now, I don't think Giles would support what Faith and Angel are doing at all. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the idea that Faith had somehow violated Giles' trust by ever inviting Angel into his home. That it's a violation of his trust because Angel was his murderer. I don’t agree with that at all.

Faith sheltered Angel because she wanted to try and rehabilitate him. She sheltered Angel because he once offered her “sanctuary” and refused to give up on her. By doing so she was honouring Giles because it was true to their mission. They set out to help rehabilitate people, spurred on by their own past misdeeds, and it goes against their mission to turn someone away because this time that person happened to hurt one of them. Gigi murdered a Slayer and attempted to kill Buffy and Faith still felt she was worth saving. By sheltering Angel, Faith was continuing their work and I think Giles would be proud of that. He’d also be sympathetic to why Faith feels she owes Angel that chance.

The only way it can be seen as a violation is if you believe they were meant to help Slayers exclusively, but if that were true Giles really had no business being involved at all. He identified with Faith's mission because he had made his own mistakes and wanted to help others who were guilty of, or at risk, of doing the same. There's no reason that can't extend to other none-Slayer folks too.

And whilst it's possible Giles would be too angry at Angel to remain objective about this, I don't think he would be. I still maintain that Giles would still harbor more resentment towards Angel for murdering Jenny then he would towards Angel for taking his own life whilst possessed. And since Giles was a good enough man to put that aside and help Angel in Amends I believe he'd be capable of supporting Faith's choice. He'd probably hate the guy but admire Faith's compassion.

Since emerging from his catatonia, it has all gone downhill because Faith is abetting Angel in a quest we know Giles would be against. And I agree with you that it’s not very rehabilitative. To make matters worse, now Faith has her own reasons for wanting Giles back which are sympathetic but misguided. But I’ve never said otherwise. I was referring to inviting him into Giles’ home in the first place with the intent of rehabilitating him and whether or not that was a violation of Giles’ trust. It wasn’t.

And I'm uncomfortable criticising Faith too much because she doesn't know Giles' personal feelings about resurrection and, man, accusing her of going against a dead man's wishes is a pretty damning statement.


I'm closest to your take on all of this. I think it was about what Giles thought Faith and Buffy needed, respectively. Faith came from a poor background and that's part of her insecurity/attitude. Buffy had a solid family, solid support. OTOH, because she was the second slayer, Faith's calling as a slayer has always been somewhat optional. Buffy has had the burden of being The Slayer. So he addresses them in the way that fits where they are. Faith gets a financial solidity she has never known. Buffy gets a reminder of who she is and what that means.

Yup! My thoughts exactly. I do think it also may partially be about addressing past wrongs (his neglect of her in S3) but essentially it was about giving her financial stability which she's never had before. And it comes full circle from when he first approached her in 8.06 and found her in that shitty, empty apartment.

It was also about helping her to continue their mission but only in the sense that she was now fully capable of supporting herself and in a better position to help others. I don't think it was ever his intention for Faith to write checks for other Slayers or house them in his apartment.

KingofCretins
21-12-12, 02:47 AM
As I've said, several times now, I don't think Giles would support what Faith and Angel are doing at all. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the idea that Faith had somehow violated Giles' trust by ever inviting Angel into his home. That it's a violation of his trust because Angel was his murderer. I don’t agree with that at all.

Faith sheltered Angel because she wanted to try and rehabilitate him. She sheltered Angel because he once offered her “sanctuary” and refused to give up on her. By doing so she was honouring Giles because it was true to their mission. They set out to help rehabilitate people, spurred on by their own past misdeeds, and it goes against their mission to turn someone away because this time that person happened to hurt one of them. Gigi murdered a Slayer and attempted to kill Buffy and Faith still felt she was worth saving. By sheltering Angel, Faith was continuing their work and I think Giles would be proud of that. He’d also be sympathetic to why Faith feels she owes Angel that chance.


Eh... I'm gonna call that one a toss-up, too. I mean, I wouldn't blink at all if that's exactly the position Giles took, that Angel can bloody well get a hotel room.

The mistake is making it something Giles figures into at all. I can think of several reasons he'd want Angel nowhere near his home, but precious few that would make it seem likely he'd welcome him. You make a decent sounding case, that it's cool because it is about the mission, but the flaw there is that, once you go to that place, you are inviting qualitative assessment of the mission, and since we all appear to agree Giles would not consider this (i.e. housing Angel while joining him in a deeply morally flawed mission that has no rehabilitative value) "the mission", it's impossible to premise using his house for "the mission" as something he'd find flattering at all.

The best case to make is one that cuts out Giles completely. Try this on -- that's Faith's home. Hers and hers only. She, not Giles, is its mistress and if Angel is welcome there, he's welcome there. As an aside, I'm actually glad that the location cards refer to it as the home of Faith Lehane.


The only way it can be seen as a violation is if you believe they were meant to help Slayers exclusively...

Again, no, not to Slayers exclusively, just to "help", exclusively. If we're treating Faith's interest as a fee simple determinable, for so long as Giles-acre is used for helping, then that's where her problem is. It's not that she's helping Angel, it's that she's not helping Angel that causes the bigger indignity to Giles' memory vis a vis the home.


He'd probably hate the guy but admire Faith's compassion.

I think we can take a lead from how Giles would balance those inclinations from Season 7 of "Buffy", actually, although with far greater antipathy toward Angel than to Spike in context.


And I'm uncomfortable criticising Faith too much because she doesn't know Giles' personal feelings about resurrection and, man, accusing her of going against a dead man's wishes is a pretty damning statement.

Eh... again, toss-up to me. I mean, is this something that anybody who knows Giles that well would have all that much uncertainty about? Shouldn't (objective standard) a Reasonable Person know that, based on Giles' general attitudes about the supernatural world and right in wrong that he would disapprove of a scheme to resurrect him? Even if we stipulate that Faith didn't have actual knowledge (which we don't know one way or another), shouldn't we say she has constructive knowledge?

vampmogs
21-12-12, 03:15 AM
The mistake is making it something Giles figures into at all. I can think of several reasons he'd want Angel nowhere near his home, but precious few that would make it seem likely he'd welcome him.

In Amends he felt compelled to help Angel. He welcomed him into his him with a crossbow pointed at him, and didn’t disagree that Angel should be in a hell dimension suffering eternal torment, but he helped him regardless. This was the first time he’d seen Angel since he murdered Jenny and brutally tortured him but being the good man he is, he helped him. I'll always love that scene between Buffy/Giles in the library when Giles admits he knows Angel is in some sort of trouble – "(sighs) I know. I've seen him." It's like he just resigns himself to the fact that he's going to help him, he doesn't even really know why but he will. It’s a lovely moment for the character and full credit to ASH because I checked the Shooting Script and Joss doesn't instruct him to deliver the line like that all (unless he did on set).

And as I said, maybe it's just me, but I still think Giles would hate Angel more for killing Jenny then he would for #39. And he helped Angel back then so why would he be against Faith helping Angel now?


You make a decent sounding case, that it's cool because it is about the mission, but the flaw there is that, once you go to that place, you are inviting qualitative assessment of the mission, and since we all appear to agree Giles would not consider this (i.e. housing Angel while joining him in a deeply morally flawed mission that has no rehabilitative value) "the mission", it's impossible to premise using his house for "the mission" as something he'd find flattering at all.

Ah, but I'm talking about when Faith first brought him in. Long before Angel came out of his catatonia and decided to resurrect Giles. Remember, I was originally responding to the idea that Faith violated Giles' trust by ever inviting his murderer into his home in the first place. That's what I don't agree with. I don’t believe Faith did wrong by Giles.


Try this on -- that's Faith's home. Hers and hers only. She, not Giles, is its mistress and if Angel is welcome there, he's welcome there. As an aside, I'm actually glad that the location cards refer to it as the home of Faith Lehane.

I don't particularly disagree with that.


It's not that she's helping Angel, it's that she's not helping Angel that causes the bigger indignity to Giles' memory vis a vis the home.

No disagreement here as long as we make it clear we're referring to A&F #1-onwards and not when Faith originally took him in (8.40). Because her intentions were very different back then even when she admits to Buffy "she's not sure of dick" when it comes to being able to handle the job.


Eh... again, toss-up to me. I mean, is this something that anybody who knows Giles that well would have all that much uncertainty about? Shouldn't (objective standard) a Reasonable Person know that, based on Giles' general attitudes about the supernatural world and right in wrong that he would disapprove of a scheme to resurrect him? Even if we stipulate that Faith didn't have actual knowledge (which we don't know one way or another), shouldn't we say she has constructive knowledge?

Willow had known Giles for years and still thought "he'd be impressed or something." She knew better than to tell him in the beginning but she thought that once Buffy was back he'd be so happy he wouldn't care anymore.

Faith has no idea just how against the resurrection Giles would be. It's one of the few times we've seen him absolutely livid and I think if Faith were aware of that things would be different.

shipperx
21-12-12, 04:17 AM
Honestly, if Giles had lived I'd think Angel would be persona non-grata to Giles because Angel had spent over a year undermining and manipulating Buffy and allowing and/or causing the deaths of hundreds of Slayers. To Giles, the wrong Angel's ego trip caused to Giles is probably way down the list of Twangel transgressions. If Giles were alive I'd think he'd worry about what Faith was getting herself into with Angel. Let's remember that Giles's wasn't the only neck Angel or whoever is currently inhabiting the Angel suit has snapped, nor is Faith the only Slayer who has suffered because of Angel's hubris.

Giles was willing to go the ambush assassination route on Spike for less than Twangel's crimes.

Giles would be concerned about Faith. Not so much with Angel. I would think the years long undermining of Buffy and manipulating her into Twilight could well have been a final torched bridge between Giles and Angel... At least until Dark Horse got desperate to tell the audience that Angel bears no responsibility for anything.

norwie
21-12-12, 04:28 AM
I don't know what Giles would do or prefer for Faith to do.

I know about my own ethics: If i have limited resources (like everybody in the world) and i have to decide to either help Twilight's victims or Twilight's helper - easy decision.

(But since Twilight's victims are just a bunch of redshirt girls.. who gives a damn, right?!)

vampmogs
21-12-12, 04:43 AM
Honestly, if Giles had lived I'd think Angel would be persona non-grata to Giles because Angel had spent over a year undermining and manipulating Buffy and allowing and/or causing the deaths of hundreds of Slayers.

As opposed to when Giles undermined and manipulated her? Obviously what Angel did was more prolonged and on a greater scale but in the same season Giles kept the Twilight prophecy from Buffy and hired Faith to assassinate Gigi behind her back. Not to mention their past history like in LMPTM or Helpless. The Slayer deaths I grant you, and even then, Giles considered Gigi an acceptable loss, but I fail to see how undermining or manipulating Buffy would be such a deal-breaker for Giles of all people.

A lot of Giles' behaviour in S8 is like a microcosm of Twangel’s own crimes. Killing Slayers to save the world? Check. Manipulating and undermining Buffy’s authority? Check. Hiring others to do your dirty work for you? Check. They’ve always been very alike which is also why for a long time they were the two most plausible candidates to be behind the mask. It would be perfectly justified for Giles to hate Angel after S8 but it'd be somewhat odd that undermining Buffy's authority would somehow rank higher than murdering his girlfriend, given Giles undermined Buffy a lot.

Hell, in #33 they even share that moment together when an explicit parallel is drawn between both men keeping secrets from her – "You still haven't told her, have you? Every Watcher wonders if his girl is going to be the one." Hating Angel for nearly getting him killed in NFFY I get. Hating him for 206 Slayer deaths I get. But hating him because he had the audacity to undermine Buffy’s authority? Pot, meet kettle.



(But since Twilight's victims are just a bunch of redshirt girls.. who gives a damn, right?!)

You can hardly consider Nadira a "redshirt" given her role in the story. And as for who gives a damn? Well, the writers obviously, or that whole scene of the Slayers cutting ties with Faith over her prioritizing Angel wouldn't have happened... and we wouldn't talking about ;)

norwie
21-12-12, 05:21 AM
Well, i guess i had that one coming for being petty. ;)

But:

You know what role Nadira fills in this comic, right? So you know who'll be sorry for cutting ties in the end.

vampmogs
21-12-12, 06:25 AM
Sorry, just saw this and I had to post it :lol:

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2125/tumblrmfbmo5kyw21qhfu21.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/tumblrmfbmo5kyw21qhfu21.jpg/)

(It's a reference to the "Mayan Apocalypse" in case peoople don't get it :p)


You know what role Nadira fills in this comic, right? So you know who'll be sorry for cutting ties in the end.

I think it's likely she'll be possessed in this arc but I'm not sure she'll actually die.

Artea
21-12-12, 09:32 AM
As opposed to when Giles undermined and manipulated her? Obviously what Angel did was more prolonged and on a greater scale but in the same season Giles kept the Twilight prophecy from Buffy and hired Faith to assassinate Gigi behind her back. Not to mention their past history like in LMPTM or Helpless. The Slayer deaths I grant you, and even then, Giles considered Gigi an acceptable loss, but I fail to see how undermining or manipulating Buffy would be such a deal-breaker for Giles of all people.

A lot of Giles' behaviour in S8 is like a microcosm of Twangel’s own crimes. Killing Slayers to save the world? Check. Manipulating and undermining Buffy’s authority? Check. Hiring others to do your dirty work for you? Check. They’ve always been very alike which is also why for a long time they were the two most plausible candidates to be behind the mask. It would be perfectly justified for Giles to hate Angel after S8 but it'd be somewhat odd that undermining Buffy's authority would somehow rank higher than murdering his girlfriend, given Giles undermined Buffy a lot.

Hell, in #33 they even share that moment together when an explicit parallel is drawn between both men keeping secrets from her – "You still haven't told her, have you? Every Watcher wonders if his girl is going to be the one." Hating Angel for nearly getting him killed in NFFY I get. Hating him for 206 Slayer deaths I get. But hating him because he had the audacity to undermine Buffy’s authority? Pot, meet kettle.More like pot meets skillet. Your comparison is incredibly flawed. Plenty of people would agree with Giles on killing Gigi or getting rid of trigger!Spike. Heck, Buffy has killed human villains, kept Slaying-related information from the gang and gave the Potentials their own Cruciamentum herself, so the 'pot meets kettle' argument could just as well be applied to her. Giles' undermining of Buffy is not comparable to what Angel did, not even remotely. Could you explain to me how killing hundreds of Slayers because a talking dog told you so can possibly be defended? Or destroying all life on earth to create a new universe?

shipperx
21-12-12, 02:03 PM
As opposed to when Giles undermined and manipulated her? Obviously what Angel did was more prolonged and on a greater scale but in the same season Giles kept the Twilight prophecy from Buffy The fact that you're comparing the two shows that the comics have accomplished some part of their goal of mitigating and obsfuscating the magnitude of what Angel did.

Scale isn't just a number printed on the corner of an architectural drawing.

The kind of damage done by a derringer and a semi-automatic weapon with 100 rounds or ammunition or by a cherry bomb and a nuclear bomb are different by many orders of magnitude. So yeah, Giles was a putz about keeping Buffy in the dark about Twilight and in many of his methods with the Slayers. He was a tool of a patriarchal view that patted the girls on the head for a mission, but kept them away from the important informed decision-making. Angel, on the other hand, launched a freaking missile at the Slayers, blowing up part of their headquarters and KILLING them. Angel sent an army back into the fray, disallowing retreat so as to kill literally hundreds of girls... so that Angel could set off an apocalypse... so that he could be a god. Then he stood there actively lobbying Buffy to stay in happy togaland with him while the world burned to the ground.

So sure, maybe Giles could be a know-it-all douche on occasion and a bit of a hypocrite in some situations, but his 'crimes' , such as they were, were many orders of magnitude less than Twangel's.


You can hardly consider Nadira a "redshirt" given her role in the story.

I'm with Norie on this one. We know what Nadira's role in this is, and it's not for her benefit. She too will wind up in the succession of female characters portrayed as being hyperemotional, irrational, crazed and/or straight-up wrong or she will eventually be impressed by Angel's protagonist angst, profess he shouldn't blame himself, and tell the audience it's mean and wrongheaded of them to insist that Angel bears any responsibilty for the mess that he made. Plus, we have Angel around to insist that the only real crime he committed in 8 was the death of the male authority figure. Considering the real estate devoted to that as compared to the rest of it (notice that the 'manipulating, undermining, and 'beating down'' of Buffy merits no real estate whatsoever), and we have an illustrative scale of what kind of crimes matter in exactly what order in the comics.

Dipstick
21-12-12, 04:42 PM
This is all well and good but we’re talking about what Giles wanted Faith to do with the money he left her and, as you say below, Giles has always been a very rich man who had gave very little. So why would you assume he wrote his will with the intention of Faith handing out his money when he never felt it was necessary to do it himself?

It's not about "handing out money" or giving out pity checks. It's about taking homeless slayers to sleep in one of the bedrooms in your mansion instead of fighting for space on Marianne's couch. If slayers are homeless and starving, Faith can set up a pantry so slayers can take food as they need it. It's about Faith using her resources to try to find them jobs to support themselves. It's observing that these slayers dropped out of high school to fight for Buffy and setting up a educational trust fund to help them with tuition. It's buying a Princeton Review or Kaplan SAT prep course that can teach and provide prep materials for 40 slayers at a time who demonstrate interest in going to college.


He had known Buffy for 6 years and had a “father’s love for the child.” Completely different from handing out pity checks to Slayers he’s barley met before, or expecting Faith to do the same. Before he got close to Faith there was no talk of giving her any money to take care of herself unless it was in exchange for her services (assassinating Gigi) and he offered her no help in S3 when she was seventeen and living in a bad part of town.

You argue that Giles's guilt about not giving Faith money in S3 motivated him to leave her property. Isn't that an admission that Giles believed that it neglected in his responsibility in not using his resources to financially help a seventeen year old slayer?

Do you think that Giles left Faith money for the dual goals of Faith helping the slayers and out of guilt of how Giles treated Faith but intended that Faith sit in her mansion while slayers live in the streets and search trash dumps for scraps of food? If Giles thinks it was wrong for him to not help Faith in S3, he'd think that it was wrong of Faith to not give one night of shelter or spend one dime of money while slayers live on the streets in Faith's neighborhood. At least, Faith lived in a (crappy) motel and didn't have the choice of begging someone for a spot on her couch or living on the streets.

Giles was never confronted with the reality of masses of traumatized, beaten, pariah, impoverished girls who entirely abandoned civilian lives to fight an international fight. While Giles was alive, he had either only had one or two slayers at the time or a super well-funded army of slayers. And as you say, Giles felt so guilty about leaving one of the slayers to rot in a cheap motel room or a crappy apartment that he left her his entire estate. How would he help about Faith playing Giles's S3 role to the tune of many homeless slayers?

zianna
21-12-12, 10:19 PM
http://leykimayri.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/art-review-angel-faith-17/

Best and worst panels of the issue, according to Georgia.

vampmogs
21-12-12, 10:56 PM
The fact that you're comparing the two shows that the comics have accomplished some part of their goal of mitigating and obsfuscating the magnitude of what Angel did.

Or maybe – just maybe – I'm capable of forming my own opinion about the comics and it isn't all "Darkhorse's fault" which has gotten more than a little stale. I’m very aware of the magnitude of what Angel did, thanks very much, which is why I made it explicitly clear that Giles’ actions weren’t as bad. You’re not the only one who can form their own opinion about the story without being led around by the nose by the good people at DH.


So yeah, Giles was a putz about keeping Buffy in the dark about Twilight and in many of his methods with the Slayers. He was a tool of a patriarchal view that patted the girls on the head for a mission, but kept them away from the important informed decision-making. Angel, on the other hand, launched a freaking missile at the Slayers, blowing up part of their headquarters and KILLING them. Angel sent an army back into the fray, disallowing retreat so as to kill literally hundreds of girls... so that Angel could set off an apocalypse... so that he could be a god. Then he stood there actively lobbying Buffy to stay in happy togaland with him while the world burned to the ground.

So sure, maybe Giles could be a know-it-all douche on occasion and a bit of a hypocrite in some situations, but his 'crimes' , such as they were, were many orders of magnitude less than Twangel's.

I never said otherwise. I thought I had covered that by saying they're not on the same scale and were but a microcosm, but apparently not. My point was that on the list of terrible things Angel has done "undermining and manipulating Buffy" probably wouldn't be the two things most likely to infuriate Giles. At least not enough to be the straw that breaks the camel's back for good. Murdering 206 Slayers? Yes. Almost getting him killed in England? Probably. Viciously attacking Buffy? Perhaps. But keeping secrets from Buffy and working behind her back, or manipulating and deceiving her, are both things Giles was guilty of on numerous occasions so I don't see them as being the deal-breaker that you do.

Pointing out that Giles' own behaviour in S8 echoed some of Twangel's crimes is more than allowed. It was probably deliberate, just like Whedon was drawing an obvious parallel between Buffy/Twangel in ToYL when she became so focused on the bigger picture that she was willing to let innocents be eaten if it meant finding Harth's nest. Giles was willing to murder a Slayer because he considered it for the greater good. He did undermine Buffy's authority by hatching an assassination plot behind her back. And he did employ other people to do his dirty work for him. There are obvious similarities even if Angel’s actions were of a far greater magnitude. That’s why he was the villain and Giles and Buffy were not.

There's an unfortunate trend in these Twangel discussions wherein people aren't allowed to talk about anything else bad that other characters did without being lectured on how what Angel did is much worse and it's terrible that you don't see it etc. I don't need that. I've been just as harsh on Angel as anybody else here and sickened by the lengths people will go to exonerate him. But I'm not going to willfully ignore other parts of the story or parallels and comparisons between other characters which seem to have been deliberately included. The point of S8 wasn't just that Angel had been corrupted. It was a season where the story's own heroine committed a great betrayal and when the majority of the good guys were on a slippery slope.


I'm with Norie on this one.

You're being petty too? :p


We know what Nadira's role in this is, and it's not for her benefit. She too will wind up in the succession of female characters portrayed as being hyperemotional, irrational, crazed and/or straight-up wrong or she will eventually be impressed by Angel's protagonist angst, profess he shouldn't blame himself, and tell the audience it's mean and wrongheaded of them to insist that Angel bears any responsibilty for the mess that he made.

What does any of this have to do with Nadira being a "redshirt" or not? Or whether or not we're meant to care that Faith prioritised Angel over his victims?


Plus, we have Angel around to insist that the only real crime he committed in 8 was the death of the male authority figure.

Completely untrue. When Faith wanted him to wiggle out of being responsible for what happened to Nadira's squad he wouldn't have a bar of it. He states that he now has "more blood on his hands than Angelus ever did."

Dipstick
22-12-12, 12:04 AM
Thinking about Faith's rant to Angel. I've been hard on Faith (for how she's treated the slayers and the hypocrisy of turning on Angel for her loss in her reputation). I stand by all of that. However, Angel is also at fault for how he's imposed on Faith while he's supposedly redeeming himself.

The heroic, the less imposing, the stiff upper-lippy, the respectful thing for Angel to have done would be to try to impose on Faith the least and encourage her to focus on non-Angel products more.

In a way, I even get how Angel clung to Faith because she's his one friend.

But we're talking about whether Faith betrayed Giles by hosting Angel? How about how Angel has the chutzpah to locate in Giles's house walking around like a big shot ("I'm going to the snap the neck of the next person at the door")? Angel could have suggested that Faith keep other slayers at Giles's house instead of stashing him there.

Angel could have told Faith that she doesn't need to spend most of her time with a disgraced, ex-villain and to keep reaching out to Buffy, the other slayers, etc.

Instead, Angel has a problem right off the bat when any other thing comes into Faith's life (her father, the Lophrage demon) besides him. He's unconcerned with how much Faith has made him the crucial part of her life and lowered herself to his Untouchable Social Level instead of cultivating her respected leadership role among the slayers.

I still believe that Faith is responsible for her choices to just focus on Angel and ignore the other slayers and her rant indicating that Faith is not owning her choices but blaming stuff on Angel. However, Angel's been very unconcerned with Giles's wishes and the well-being of his best friend and the woman that he once considered his moral ward/responsibility/disciple.

Morphia
22-12-12, 11:51 AM
The only issue all season where I've really liked Angel the way I used to was the one with Faith's dad and the Irish gangsters. That's because he was completely focused on Faith's problems in that one, not his own.

Doesn't work in reverse, though. Faith completely focusing on helping Angel (which she's now done again by demanding he bring Giles back whatever the consequences - and no wonder Angel was so quick to agree because it falls in line exactly with what he wants to do anyway) just ends up driving both of them further and further away from any meaningful redemption.

Stoney
22-12-12, 12:56 PM
I really like Angel and Faith together as a title pairing, I think they play off each other and help and complicate each other well to keep the story a little unpredictable, interesting and flowing. That Faith is showing flaws too I think is important to stop it feeling like the title is Angel's with Faith as a babysitter/secondary character there as his sponsor. I have been impressed personally with how well the title has mixed the focus of the two leads. It hasn't, imo, felt too dominated by either of them even though a lot of it has followed Angel's story path with Giles.

But with the way they seem to be considering different things for S10 it may well be that they take them apart. It think that would be a shame because seeing how they figure out a working partnership dynamic coming out of their current raggedy path together, seeing them achieve a better functioning unit, would be a good continuation I reckon.

Vampire in Rug
23-12-12, 07:05 AM
I know about my own ethics: If i have limited resources (like everybody in the world) and i have to decide to either help Twilight's victims or Twilight's helper - easy decision.



When Faith took Angel in, he was catatonic. Somebody had to look after him and Faith was the only one who was willing and able. I would assume that Faith got to know Nadira and the other Slayers in Nadira's group at some point after she'd moved the England and had already taken Angel in. So it's not a matter of choosing to help Twilight's helper instead of Twilight's victims, the situation is far more complex than that -not that you'd want to acknowledge it. The situation is would be more accurately described as Faith taking in Angel in spite of him being Twilight's helper because of their personal history. When Faith gets Giles' estate, Angel is living there because he needs immediate attention due to his catatonia. It's either put a roof over his head or leave him in a cave. At this point, it's not confirmed that Faith even knows any homeless Slayers who need immediate attention. I assumed she got to know Nadira and her crew after moving to England. So at first, Angel is her only priority. Then, once she's in England with Angel under her roof, from that point on, having additional Slayers living there as well is not an option because from Faith's POV, she can't have Nadira finding out about Angel.

Also, it's entirely possible that Faith is using her money and resources to give the Slayers some shelter. There would have been other stuff in Giles' will besides the apartment. So it is possible that Faith is helping the Slayers as well as Angel (as opposed to helping Angel instead of the Slayers), she's just not having them live under her roof for obvious reasons.


(But since Twilight's victims are just a bunch of redshirt girls.. who gives a damn, right?!)

Who gives a damn indeed. Which title do you think would sell better, Norwie: "Angel & Faith" or "Faith and the Redshirt Slayer"? Which character do you think the potential audience is more likely to give a crap about, Angel or a nameless Slayer? Regardless of Angel's actions in season 8, he's a bigger name and a more important figure in the Buffyverse than some nameless redshirt Slayer. So I think the idea that Faith should have a plucky Slayer sidekick living with her instead of Angel to be pretty laughable. I've already explained why it makes sense in-story for Faith to have Angel living with her, and it's pretty obvious why Dark Horse would want to have Angel as Faith's flatmate rather than a nameless Slayer because you're right: nobody would give a damn about a redshirt girl promoted to title character out of nowhere.


You know what role Nadira fills in this comic, right? So you know who'll be sorry for cutting ties in the end.

Dude, I'm so jealous that you know how the story ends while the rest of us have to wait for it to be published. Do you know Christos Gage in person, or were you mailed copies of the book from the future?


Plenty of people would agree with Giles on killing Gigi or getting rid of trigger!Spike. Heck, Buffy has killed human villains, kept Slaying-related information from the gang and gave the Potentials their own Cruciamentum herself, so the 'pot meets kettle' argument could just as well be applied to her. Giles' undermining of Buffy is not comparable to what Angel did, not even remotely. Could you explain to me how killing hundreds of Slayers because a talking dog told you so can possibly be defended? Or destroying all life on earth to create a new universe?

I think you missed Vampmogs point. There are obvious parallels between Angel and Giles, both have a pattern of behaviour where they decide that they know what is best for Buffy and it ends up blowing up in their faces. Obviously Angel's actions in season 8 were worse than anything Giles has done, but the intent was coming from the same place: "I know what's best." It's a character flaw that both of them share. Giles put Buffy at a huge disadvantage by not telling her about Gigi, or Twilight. Nobody is arguing that Giles actions are as bad as Angel's. But the parallel between the two characters is pretty clear. And if Giles were to be pissed at Angel over his actions in season 8, I think "you lied to and undermined Buffy" ranks well below some of the other things Angel did. And Giles can't claim that he is innocent of lying to and undermining Buffy.

Side note: There is a massive, massive difference between the Watcher's Cruciamentum versus Buffy's training session with the Potentials and that one vampire in the crypt. It's pretty off topic so I'll spoiler it.

The training session with the Potentials actually had merit and a point behind it. The girls were in constant danger of the First Evil and it was almost inevitable that someday soon they would find themselves in combat with the First's forces. They needed to learn how to fight, plain and simple. The risk/benefit scale of training against a single vampire is far more favourable than being coddled in Buffy's house for a few weeks only for the girls to suddenly find themselves up against a demonic threat when they have zero combat training.

The Watcher's Cruciamentum on the other hand, does not serve a purpose that is as immediate and pressing as the situation Buffy and the Potentials were in. Buffy trained the Potentials that way because of the situation around them. The Watcher's submit their Slayers to the Cruciamentum as a matter of principal. It's a barbaric tradition. I don't really see what purpose it serves either. Why does a Slayer need to have her powers taken away? How is that experience ever going to be relevant to her when she's on the field? The only purpose behind the exercise that I can see is that it's a test of the Watcher, to see if he/she can resist helping the Slayer. It's a test of whether the Watcher can remain professional and detached, or whether he/she has come to care too much about the Slayer to the point where it could jeopardize the mission. The Watcher is not allowed to interfere.

On the other hand, Buffy and Spike were on the other side of the door when the locked the Potentials up with the vamp, and they were in a position where they could and would step in if things got too out of hand. The training session with the Potentials was far safer. Not to mention that the vampire was a newly risen rookie as opposed to a dangerous killer like Kralick. Also, with the Potentials it was three vs 1.

In short, the training session where the Potentials killed their first vamp was far safer and served a greater purpose than a Watcher's Cruciamentum.


I'm with Norie on this one. We know what Nadira's role in this is, and it's not for her benefit.

Nadira has been awesome in the last couple of issues. She's called Faith out for lying to her, called Angel out on his unwillingness to kill Drusilla, demonstrated maturity by putting her grudge against Angel aside in order to help Marianne, pointed out that Marianne is just as deserving of life as Giles, she saw right through Eyghon's deception and has generally proved to be a far more interesting OC than anyone in Buffy's comic. She's also competent at fighting vampires and demons without being an over-the-top Mary Sue like Billy. Nadira is not perfect and she does have her share of flaws, that's what makes her a fleshed out character. I really don't know what more you expect of Nadira or where you think the writers have done her a disservice.


She too will wind up in the succession of female characters portrayed as being hyperemotional, irrational, crazed and/or straight-up wrong or she will eventually be impressed by Angel's protagonist angst, profess he shouldn't blame himself, and tell the audience it's mean and wrongheaded of them to insist that Angel bears any responsibility for the mess that he made.

Nadira has been through hell and has seen many of her friends die. She's got every right to be emotional and even crazed. As for irrational, she demonstrated in this issue that she was able to put the needs of her friends above her vengeance mission against Angel. She's also rational enough to see through Eyghon's bullshit. I don't know why you think that the story will portray Nadira to be "straight-up wrong" for being pissed at Angel. If Gage wanted to portray Nadira as a two-dimensional maniac, he wouldn't have given her entirely legitimate reasons to be pissed at Angel.

As for Nadira professing to the audience that Angel shouldn't blame himself, and that's it's mean of the audience to make him bear responsibility for his actions... I seem to recall offering to bet actual money with you that this won't happen and I didn't get a response...

At absolute best for Angel, she'll get the Willow treatment where Nadira still can't forgive him for his Twilight actions, but no longer wants to stake him due to him saving her life or whatever. This is a far cry from being "impressed" by his angst, or wanting Angel to stop blaming himself.


Plus, we have Angel around to insist that the only real crime he committed in 8 was the death of the male authority figure.

Yeah, you've repeated that line quite a few times despite it being proven to be complete bullshit. If the story is so bad, why not critique the actual flaws instead of making stuff up?

Also, why the need to specify that Giles was male or an authority figure? Does being male or an authority figure make his life worth less than a female or someone who's not an authority figure? A few pages ago you took issue with the book saying "you [Angel] ran that facility, I mean Twilight did." You were offended that the book drew a distinction between "Angel" or "Twilight" being in charge of the facility. You said they could've just stopped at "you". Well, I'm wondering why you needed to draw the distinction of Giles being male and an authority figure, when you could've just stopped at "Giles".

Artea
23-12-12, 09:29 AM
I think you missed Vampmogs point. There are obvious parallels between Angel and Giles, both have a pattern of behaviour where they decide that they know what is best for Buffy and it ends up blowing up in their faces.When the difference in scale is as enormous as it is between Giles and Angel, you can't really call them parallels anymore. It's like saying putting down a rabid dog to spare it further suffering is parallel to Dark!Willow's 'end all suffering' apocalypse in S6.
Secondly, even if one ignores the difference in scale, the alleged parallels don't make any sense. For example, Giles took out a Slayer who was murdering people left and right to prevent her from claiming more victims; Angel took out hundreds of innocent Slayers in the name of same vague prophecy. Those aren't comparable in the slightest.


Side note: There is a massive, massive difference between the Watcher's Cruciamentum versus Buffy's training session with the Potentials and that one vampire in the crypt. It's pretty off topic so I'll spoiler it.I wasn't defending the Cruciamentum (which I consider to be a pretty big betrayal), I was just pointing out the logical fallacy in vampmogs' 'pot meets kettle' argument. According to vampmogs, Buffy has no right to be upset at the aforementioned things Giles did, because she did similar things herself. That makes no sense, obviously. Oh, and the Cruciamentum is not at all indicative of a 'knows best' mentality, it's a case of obedience to a fault.

What are we discussing again? That Giles shouldn't get upset at the 'manipulating and undermining Buffy' part of Angel's actions because he (allegedly) did the same? That seems like arguing semantics. Murdering those Slayers, repeatedly trying to murder Buffy's friends, etc. is how Angel undermined and manipulated Buffy, so the distinction strikes me as pretty artificial.

Dipstick
23-12-12, 08:50 PM
At this point, it's not confirmed that Faith even knows any homeless Slayers who need immediate attention. I assumed she got to know Nadira and her crew after moving to England. So at first, Angel is her only priority. Then, once she's in England with Angel under her roof, from that point on, having additional Slayers living there as well is not an option because from Faith's POV, she can't have Nadira finding out about Angel.

Once Angel was no longer catatonic and Faith met Nadira and her crew and knew about homeless slayers, she should have sent Angel to a motel and hosted the slayers. By not doing that, Faith made a choice that she prioritizes Angel over the slayers.

Faith chose to have a close, co-habitating relationship with Angel where she urges him to feel less guilt, provides for his needs, and goes along with his resurrection plan and takes his moral guidance when it comes to her dad or the Lophrage demon. Faith chose to have a comparatively distant relationship with the slayers where Faith periodically checked in with Nadira and offered her some sincere verbal sympathy and some equally sincere verbal admonishments to let go of their anger but never checks in with or provides for their material needs. Faith informed Angel of her dealings with everyone and felt guilty for being distrustful of Angel in Quor-Toth and apologized to him. But Faith chose to not tell the slayers of her dealings with Angel.

Faith made a number of choices of a period of many months to prioritize Angel's right to honest information, his material needs, and his mission over that of the slayers' and she's living with the consequences right now. So, I'm uninterested in fanwanks of how Faith's been SOOPER-SECRETLY financially supporting the slayers or boiling Faith's choices down to when Angel was catatonic. These arguments miss the point.

Faith isn't a victim of Nadira's and the other slayers' unreasonable anger or a underappreciated helper of the slayers. Faith is a good woman with a lot of loyalty to those who help her who had intentions to help everyone.

However, she's also a very flawed woman with serious daddy issues who has been so formed by poverty that she doesn't think in terms of material philanthropy even when it's urgently required. Faith's sense of worth is very much tied in Angel so she puts him first, even when there are more deserving (merit-wise and need-wise) people to prioritize.

Also, Faith feels the need to max out on the number of people who she feels can love her all the way back to S3. And while Faith has grown a great deal from S3 and will no longer buy affection by being a hitwoman or even trying to lower Buffy to her level, Faith *is* trying to max out on Angel's love and the slayers' love- even though she's only enjoying both to the A&F #1 through end of 16 extent because she's lying to slayers' about her dealings with Angel.

ETA: Even though I do think that Faith wants to help everyone at root, there's also a certain self-absorption there. It's all *Faith's* debt of gratitude to Angel, *Faith's* need for a sterling reputation among the slayers, *Faith's* need to have Giles back for herself. I do think that Faith wants to help and that's why she's juggling all of those plates between Angel and the slayers. However, there's a certain "Me. Me. Me" quality to it when the slayers' turning on her doesn't cause Faith to examine her own choices but to yell at Faith on how she "owed" him but now he "owes her" and how he screws things up. And a "Me. Me. Me" quality that Faith never thought in terms of giving anything to the slayers. Her lifetime of poverty handicaps Faith from thinking about setting up pantries or SAT courses or enrolling them in school. However, she's equipped enough to think about whether she needs to give shelter to homeless slayers but she....just doesn't....


I think you missed Vampmogs point. There are obvious parallels between Angel and Giles, both have a pattern of behaviour where they decide that they know what is best for Buffy and it ends up blowing up in their faces. Obviously Angel's actions in season 8 were worse than anything Giles has done, but the intent was coming from the same place: "I know what's best." It's a character flaw that both of them share. Giles put Buffy at a huge disadvantage by not telling her about Gigi, or Twilight. Nobody is arguing that Giles actions are as bad as Angel's. But the parallel between the two characters is pretty clear. And if Giles were to be pissed at Angel over his actions in season 8, I think "you lied to and undermined Buffy" ranks well below some of the other things Angel did. And Giles can't claim that he is innocent of lying to and undermining Buffy.

Just because Angel's lies and manipulations would rank below his murder, brutality, apocalypse and stupidity in accepting Twilight deal, doesn't mean that Giles wouldn't be angry at Angel for lying and manipulating to Buffy. Nor does it mean, that Giles isn't entitled to be angry at Angel for manipulating Buffy or murdering to the point that we can infer that Giles would want to open to his house to Angel.

Let's say, a restauranteur purposefully overcharges some of his customers by a few US dollars per bill if they look drunk or like naive tourists who aren't going to check their bill. The same restauranteur invested all of his savings with Bernie Madoff who stole everything. The restauranteur would be pissed as hell as Bernie for lying and stealing and he'd have every right. There's lying to steal a few dollars from a person at a time and there's committing to steal many people's life savings and charities' entire endowments.

I disagree with this zero-sum game that you and vampmogs live in where if you lied or manipulated, you have no standing or little likelihood of hating someone who did that on a greater scale. Most of the people (or maybe *all* people with the intelligence to do so) in this world have lied and manipulated. No one relinquishes their right to resent those who manipulate them or those who they love and most have a right to so resent.

Certainly, Giles's recklessness with magic didn't restrain him from yelling at Willow when she was seeming or being reckless with magic. Certainly Giles's manipulations of Buffy didn't restrain him from yelling at Spike in episodes like I Was Made to Love You for manipulating the situation to get Buffy's affections. In The Yoko Factor, Giles had the chutzpah to get falling down drunk on the eve of an apocalypse and during an urgent Scooby meeting *while* scolding Buffy for not taking the mission seriously enough and neglecting her training with him.

So, what makes you think that Giles wouldn't be angry or wouldn't have a right to be pissed Angel for murdering thousands of slayers because Giles wanted to kill Gigi? I'm pretty sure that Giles's outrage over Angel manipulating things to physically and emotionally beat down Giles's beloved Buffy into submission to be the mother of his universe would be intact and rightly so.

Also, if the restauranteur dropped dead from the stress of suddenly being impoverished and Madoff was released from prison, I'm pretty sure that the restauranteur's heirs would figure that it would be improper to host Madoff in the house that they inherited from the restauranteur.

vampmogs
24-12-12, 07:34 AM
So, what makes you think that Giles wouldn't be angry or wouldn't have a right to be pissed Angel for murdering thousands of slayers because Giles wanted to kill Gigi?

I sure as hell didn't say that. Did Vampire In The Rug? I clearly said "the Slayer deaths I grant you" so I was never arguing that Giles wouldn't be angry about it. And I certainly never claimed he "wouldn't have a right to be pissed" given that I also stated it would be "perfectly justified" for Giles to hate Angel. I only pointed out the similarities with Gigi to back up my claim that, yes, there are a number of similarities between Giles and Angel in S8 (as well as Buffy and Angel) which I'm sure was deliberate.

My whole point was that I just don’t see Angel’s deceit and manipulation as the two things most likely to cause Giles to cut all ties with Angel for good. Not if he could continue to work with him after the torture in Becoming or the murder of Jenny. I did explicitly state that the deaths of 206 Slayers would most likely be the final straw, and perhaps even Angel viciously attacking Buffy (and Faith) in 8.11 and 8.33, but Giles was prone to keeping things from Buffy “for her own good” (including the freakin’ Twilight prophecy!) so he’s unlikely to find it worse than Angel’s other atrocities. If Giles had just been, say, a one-time offender, then perhaps so. However, he has a fairly big rap sheet of manipulating Buffy himself so I’d find it quite odd that out of all the things Angel has done it would be so unforgivable to him.

Both of them look pretty bad in 8.33 when they share their exchange about the prophecy and how they've both kept Buffy in the dark about it. And Faith was justifiably pissed at Giles when she overheard that.

dorotea
24-12-12, 06:06 PM
Just wanted to point out that while everybody seems to be outraged over the death of 206 Slayers, the very fact that the girls were recruited into a global army that was (1) outfitted via banal bank-robbery and (2) was running the global scale 'war with humanity' sort of kind of puts their deaths on the joined responsibility balance sheet. Meaning that Giles of all people should have noticed when exactly did Buffy cross the line - which he did not because of his fear of, and obsession with Twilight prophecy. Also meaning that Buffy's failure to stop and think - what the hell are we doing ? - to quote from Kennedy is never mentioned in this wholesale guilt assignments. And also meaning that the fact that Buffy's Slayers were mostly killed by humans - both soldiers and the mob, etc should mean something on the global scale. Because Slayers were created to and were supposed to protect humanity - not to forcefully and completely opportunistically establish new order of things by making unilateral decisions for humanity. As such, I can hardly consider either Giles or Buffy completely in the right for getting all these girls who trusted them involved into global scale warfare, and there fore not being partially responsible for their deaths - as well as for the deaths of humans on the Twilight side. So, I think Giles would be a bit on the lenient side with Angel as Twilight crimes, exactly because he is not the type of personality who easily absolves himself of serious mistakes.

Dipstick
25-12-12, 05:42 PM
And I certainly never claimed he "wouldn't have a right to be pissed" given that I also stated it would be "perfectly justified" for Giles to hate Angel. I only pointed out the similarities with Gigi to back up my claim that, yes, there are a number of similarities between Giles and Angel in S8 (as well as Buffy and Angel) which I'm sure was deliberate.

You were arguing with shipperx's point:

Honestly, if Giles had lived I'd think Angel would be persona non-grata to Giles because Angel had spent over a year undermining and manipulating Buffy and allowing and/or causing the deaths of hundreds of Slayers.

to argue that Giles wouldn't or shouldn't, given Giles's behavior, hate Angel for undermining, lying and manipulating Buffy.

You responded to shipperx:


As opposed to when Giles undermined and manipulated her? Obviously what Angel did was more prolonged and on a greater scale but in the same season Giles kept the Twilight prophecy from Buffy and hired Faith to assassinate Gigi behind her back. Not to mention their past history like in LMPTM or Helpless. The Slayer deaths I grant you, and even then, Giles considered Gigi an acceptable loss, but I fail to see how undermining or manipulating Buffy would be such a deal-breaker for Giles of all people.

A lot of Giles' behaviour in S8 is like a microcosm of Twangel’s own crimes. Killing Slayers to save the world? Check. Manipulating and undermining Buffy’s authority? Check. Hiring others to do your dirty work for you? Check. They’ve always been very alike which is also why for a long time they were the two most plausible candidates to be behind the mask. It would be perfectly justified for Giles to hate Angel after S8 but it'd be somewhat odd that undermining Buffy's authority would somehow rank higher than murdering his girlfriend, given Giles undermined Buffy a lot.

Hell, in #33 they even share that moment together when an explicit parallel is drawn between both men keeping secrets from her – "You still haven't told her, have you? Every Watcher wonders if his girl is going to be the one." Hating Angel for nearly getting him killed in NFFY I get. Hating him for 206 Slayer deaths I get. But hating him because he had the audacity to undermine Buffy’s authority? Pot, meet kettle.

I. Strongly. Disagree. What is that supposed to mean other than saying that Giles would be a pot calling the kettle black and thus, doesn't have a moral leg to stand on in hating Angel for lying to and manipulating Buffy? How else am I supposed to infer your point?

When you wrote the post, this language does not read to me like you were just drawing up a Venn Diagram between Angel's and Giles's actions or just trying to rank what Giles would be pissed about. You were arguing that Giles would be a hypocrite and doesn't have the standing to be mad at Angel for undermining and manipulating Buffy.

I stand by my argument that this line of argument is wrong. Because it's not in human nature for people to relinquish their rights to be mad about crimes others committed, the scale of Angel's lies and manipulations so dwarfs Giles that it isn't the same crime, "undermining" in the sense of withholding information is in another galaxy from "undermining" meaning emotionally and physically torturing Buffy to death, etc.


I sure as hell didn't say that. Did Vampire In The Rug? I clearly said "the Slayer deaths I grant you" so I was never arguing that Giles wouldn't be angry about it.

You modified your argument, "the Slayer deaths I grant you", with: The Slayer deaths I grant you, and even then, Giles considered Gigi an acceptable loss

I inferred that to mean that while you think Giles has more of a leg to stand on to be mad at Angel for killing than for manipulation and dishonest, Giles's moral leg is wobbly on being angry at Angel for killing slayers because Giles was after Gigi. Again, I disagree.

That's like saying that World War II-era US government officials are living in a glass house and throwing stones by being morally outraged about Nazi Germany's extermination campaigns and concentration camps because the US government interned American-Japanese citizens.

I think we can say that the US government was horribly wrong by interning the Japanese without cutting at the circle of people who are allowed to be morally outraged at *Hitler*. Giles's attempted murder of Gigi isn't even nearly as awful as the internment of Japanese. We can disapprove of Giles's treatment of Gigi or his lies to Buffy without comprising him or removing him the group who can hate Angel for murder of slayers and manipulation of Buffy.

Giles has enough of a leg to stand on to hate Angel for everything without being a hypocrite.


My whole point was that I just don’t see Angel’s deceit and manipulation as the two things most likely to cause Giles to cut all ties with Angel for good.

I don't think that lying or manipulating Buffy would be in Giles's top two grievances against Angel- largely because Angel did worse stuff. However, I do believe that Angel's deceit would *be* on Giles's list of grievances which make it worthwhile to discuss when figuring out whether Angel would be persona non gratta to Giles.

Giles doesn't think that everyone should get open season to lie to and manipulate Buffy. When Giles suspected Maggie Walsh, Spike, Consequences!Faith, Quentin and the Watchers of lying to and manipulating Buffy, Giles was mad at them for lying and manipulating Buffy. Giles tolerated several instances of Angel or Robin Wood manipulating Buffy *when Giles felt in on it.*.

I don't get how Giles could be so pissed off at say, S5 Spike for manipulating things to get in Buffy's good graces but not be pissed at off Angel's year-long plan to beat down Buffy behind a mask to get her to succumb to sex with him.


Not if he could continue to work with him after the torture in Becoming or the murder of Jenny.

Interesting that you mention that. After Angleus's S2 crimes, Angel had trouble getting up the nerve to ask Giles for help in mid-S3. He was too ashamed to walk into Giles's house with complete confidence. He only came to Giles's house in Pangs with a mission to protect Buffy- and after a year of doing things that Giles approved of (helping against the Mayor, saving Buffy's life in Earshot, breaking up with Buffy).

Post Twilight, Angel sets up his home in Giles's house. He threatens to snap necks in Giles's house. He freely uses Giles's magical artifacts and spends Giles's money. He declares himself close enough to and vested enough in Giles to solely decide whether Giles wants to be resurrected- in contrast to the past resurrection-stakeholders of Joyce's daughter, all of Buffy's best friends and chosen "family" save Giles and minor!Dawn, all of Fred's best friends and chosen family.

Whether Giles was enough of a forgiving (or naive and pushover) person to forgive Angel and tolerate Angel in his house is somewhat of a open question. However, Angel's brazen sense of entitlement to Giles's things and soul after taking Giles's life and Angel's utter lack of shop in setting up shot in his victim's house is an open-and-shut-case.

vampmogs
26-12-12, 06:28 AM
I don't mind clarifying myself once but I don't make a habit of doing it again. With all due respect, I've already explained what I meant so I'm not about to get into a debate discussing the semantics of my post, which is where this seems to be heading.

This is beginning to go around in circles so I'll bow out now. Neither of us are going to change our opinion so it's best not to drag it out. Happy holidays!

MikeB
28-12-12, 08:54 AM
Angel and Faith 1.17 bullet points and analysis


* I never take the covers as being canon, but this cover is beyond annoying.

Somehow, Willow, Xander, and Dawn aren’t on this cover. I can understand why Spike wouldn’t go (Giles tried to have him murdered), but what about the Scoobies? The cover is completely unrealistic. And is Ethan Rayne a big selling point?

________

* Eyghon was “old when the world was young”?

Does that mean that Eyghon is an Old One?

* It seems Ethan Rayne wasn’t a former Watcher.

I had always assumed that he was supposed to be a Watcher but rebelled and never joined.

* So, Giles was already a powerful warlock when Ethan and he were messing around with Egyhon when they were younger.

* The date that they were messing around with Egyhon is never given, and even though they look like they are at least in their 20s, Rebekkah Isaacs drew Drusilla as if she were in her 40s.

Has Rebeakkah drawn teenagers in this book?

* We see Faith and Angel on the first floor in her house. In A&F 1.16, they were on the second floor. So, clearly Faith owns the entire house and it’s not a flat.

* Faith has a desktop computer.

Did Giles have that or is that something Faith bought?

* Faith is no longer feeling what Angel did in BtVS S8 and what she did in BtVS S3 is equivalent or comparable. She says to him, “Y’know why I took you in? Because I owed you. Because when I hit bottom, you helped me. So I helped you.”

Nadira and Co. forced Faith to get some perspective.

* Faith to Angel: “I pissed away any friggin’ purpose I had in my miserable excuse for a life. Everything I gave a damn about’s gone. Because of you. So you know what? Debt paid. Now you owe me.”

Wow, Faith has extremely low self-esteem. Faith’s now worth at least tens of millions of dollars and she still has superpowers. She could do any number of things including starting a foundation for the Slayers. She could get educated. She could take vacations. She could be slaying in general instead of only slaying as a part of Angel’s mission.

* Faith tells Angel that he’s going to get Giles back for her no matter how dangerous or deadly to him the avenue is.

So, Faith has lost perspective in this. Faith should be informing Buffy of the resurrecting Giles plan, not determining to be more reckless than Angel has been willing to be.

* And Faith’s still going to be with Angel on the resurrecting Giles mission. So, she’s determined to put herself in even more danger than she’s been willing to put herself in previously.

* Nadira says Giles looks familiar.

* Weren’t we supposed to assume that Angel’s demon killed Eyghon?

* Even though Eyghon can possess more than one person at a time, the person has to have the Eygphon symbol on them or be unconscious or dead and near the previous person possessed when Eyghon jumps bodies.

* Giles had two viewings, same day. One for as Faith tells Angel, “people like [them]. Then a second one, for normal folks. Family, friends… anyone who’d raise an eyebrow at a Cyclops sobbing in the back row. I was out of the loop on that one.”

So, Faith went to the wake for the people who were involved in Giles’ Watcher, Scoobies, etc. life (presumably Buffy and the Scoobies went; Spike may have went). But she didn’t go to the one for family and friends. Um, she got the entire estate! It’s incredibly rude of her not to go to both funerals. I’m sure those family and friends were curious about the random 20-something woman to whom Giles gave all his wealth.

* Why is Angel driving the car?

Does Faith not know how to drive? That’s probably her car.

* Giles is around 3 times older than the Slayers there? So, he’s in his late-40s, early 50s?

* Nadira has 11 other Slayers with her. Could the 12 have taken on Angel and Faith and killed them?

* Olivia Williams, an old flame of Giles’, was at the second viewing and was quite devastated.

Obvious Dollhouse reference ( www.imdb.com/title/tt1135300/ ).

It’d be funnier if Faith were like, “I knew here. She was a bi)ch at first, but then became okay.”

* Angel to Sophornia and Lavinia: “Can you leave the planning to someone who’s actually done detective work?”

First off, FU Angel. They are Giles’ aunts and you’re – at best – the one who killed Giles and is simply trying to ease his own conscious and trying to get in a better place relationship-wise with Buffy.

Secondly, you suck at being a detective and told your employees at Angel Investigations that doing detective work is what you people are worst at doing.

* Why is no one commenting on the fact that Angel is wearing glasses and can’t see well?

* Ethan Rayne spent years trying to hook up with Lavinia.

* Faith first says that Angel ran the facility that Ethan Rayne was in, and then says, “I mean, Twilight did.” Angel acts as if he doesn’t know what happened to the facility.

Didn’t General Voll control that facility? Voll was working for Twilight but that doesn’t mean that Angel micromanaged that facility.

* Lavinia while not being attracted to Ethan Rayne was attracted to Eyghon-Ethan Rayne.

* Angel again acknowledges that he was Twilight and that he wasn’t under the influence or control of anything or anyone: “Ethan Rayne was being held by the U.S. Government. A General working for… well… me… shot him in his head. Murdered him. The security in that place… standard procedure was to cremate all remains. I never imagined he could’ve made it out.”

So, did Angel order General Voll to murder Ethan? Ethan was murdered after helping out Buffy.

As for the cremations: that could have been Angel’s orders. U.S. Government procedure would likely be to notify loved ones. Even Osama bin Laden got a proper burial. It’s not as Ethan could simply be cremated. So, perhaps all the people that AngelTwilight and Co. were killing or were responsible for killing were cremated – if Twilight and Co. were able to cremate them. Who knows how many Slayers there actually were after “Chosen” (7.22)? The 1800 number was given after well over 1.5 years had already passed. Perhaps AngelTwilight and Co. had already killed a bunch of Slayers before Buffy and Co. finally tallied the numbers of Slayers in the world.

* So, Nadira and Co. are going to try to go after Drusilla and kill her?

Well, if Eyghon and Co. doesn’t kill them maybe they’ll be killed by Dru.

Dru would probably like Eyghon and she would probably get Egyphon working for her.

* Eyghon-Ethan Rayne could have simply studied up on Giles’s family and that’s why it knew who Sophornia and Lavinia are.

* Eyghon actually seems a lot less powerful than the necromancer from Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red”.

Not sure if “Paint the Town Red” is still canon, but I hope it is.

* Faith has a desktop computer (which generally are more powerful than laptops and certainly have bigger screens) and yet she’s not only using a laptop, she using a mouse with the laptop.

I have no idea what brand the laptop possibly is but it is the first non-Apple product (that I remember seeing) in the comics.

Is Faith somehow against Apple products (she can surely afford them), is Apple no longer doing product placement, or has Apple forbid DarkHorse from depicting obvious Apple products? It’s glaring that the computers aren’t Apples.

* Angel says, “Ethan Rayne died in top-secret custody. He was never declared dead.”

I can’t imagine that that’s where Riley meant to send Ethan or that’s what Riley wanted. And probably Giles would have wanted to contact Ethan every now and then.

While it’s possible that the U.S. Government did this, it seems more likely this is Angel’s doing.

* So, Angel knew this whole time that Eyghon had part of Giles’ soul and the plan all along was to kill Eyghon?

* In the flashback, Giles is trying to exorcise Eyghon from his friend and he’s using the Catholic rites. Ethan says it’s not working because Eyghon isn’t Catholic. Ethan thinks Eyphon’s Etruscan. Giles says that while they found Eyghon in Etruscan writings, he’s far older. And that Giles has “tried every other rite of exorcism that [he’s] aware of.”

What is this saying? That demons have certain religions?

* Does Buffy’s body and soul belong to Eyghon? Ethan’s the one who put the mark on her over her express objections. And obviously Eyghon didn’t use Buffy’s body, although maybe that’s simply because Buffy’s body has a powerful demon inside it.

* Giles and Ethan in order to save themselves and three others in their ‘Eyghon group’ had to kill one of their members: Randall.


Slay the Critics section:

* Essentially, Scott Allie is acknowledging that we don’t have to believe anything Whistler told Angel in A&F 1.13.

My considerations:

Whistler being the son of a Power That Be and a pure demon could simply be why he’s so powerful.

The thing that’s probably the most important to the Buffyverse is if Powers That Be are humanoid. That would mean that Jasmine was never a Power That Be, something that never made sense anyway. And it could mean that Glorificus actually was a Power that Be, and that she simply was power hungry and wanted to rule a dimension.

We saw that Wolfram and Hart had some influence in Pylea. We saw that Jasmine had been in some other dimension ruling over it before trying to rule the Earth. Why couldn’t Powers That Be be in other dimensions as well? Twilight itself is simply the embodiment of a dimension.

Vampire in Rug
28-12-12, 10:36 PM
Angel and Faith 1.17 bullet points and analysis


* I never take the covers as being canon, but this cover is beyond annoying.

Somehow, Willow, Xander, and Dawn aren’t on this cover. I can understand why Spike wouldn’t go (Giles tried to have him murdered), but what about the Scoobies? The cover is completely unrealistic. And is Ethan Rayne a big selling point?



This series is "Angel & Faith". The cover is going to depict characters important to this series and more specifically, to this arc. That's why Faith, the aunts and Ethan were shown on the cover at the funeral. Yes, I'm sure that Willow, Xander and Dawn would have attended Giles funeral. But they aren't going to be on the cover because they aren't important characters for this arc or this series. Faith, Ethan and the aunts are more important for this story, hence why they are depicted on the cover. If the Buffy comic were to have an issue focusing on Giles funeral I'm sure it would prioritize Willow, Xander and Dawn above Ethan, Faith and the aunts.

If the cover did depict the scoobies, I believe there would be accusations of false advertising in order to drum up sales if the scoobies were on the cover to an issue that they didn't appear in.

Artistically, I think it's a nice cover.

And Spike wasn't at the funeral because he was still in outer-space. I don't think Spike would skip out on Giles funeral out of spite because Giles tried to have him killed several years ago. Really, who among the scoobies hasn't tried to kill someone else at some point? Spike has betrayed the scoobies his fair share of times, I'm sure that while he still doesn't appreciate Giles trying to kill him, he'd be over it by now and wouldn't still be so hung up on it that he'd miss they guy's funeral. He's known Giles for years. At the very least, it would mean something to Buffy if he attended. If he were to be pissed at Giles for anything, it would be over refusing to help when Fred was infected with Illyria, and about withholding information from Buffy about the Twilight prophecy. I would think those two incidents would rank higher for Spike than the attempt at his life, and even then I don't think Spike would be so hung up that he'd refuse to go to the funeral.

It's a moot point anyhow, Spike was in space.


* Eyghon was “old when the world was young”?

Does that mean that Eyghon is an Old One?

Eyghon is old, but I don't think he's an Old One.


* It seems Ethan Rayne wasn’t a former Watcher.

I had always assumed that he was supposed to be a Watcher but rebelled and never joined.

What? Why would you have ever assumed that Ethan was a Watcher?



Has Rebeakkah drawn teenagers in this book?

I assume that some of the Slayers are teenagers.



* Weren’t we supposed to assume that Angel’s demon killed Eyghon?

Yes, we were. Here's hoping that we get some sort of satisfactory explanation.


* Even though Eyghon can possess more than one person at a time, the person has to have the Eygphon symbol on them or be unconscious or dead and near the previous person possessed when Eyghon jumps bodies.

How does that work anyway? I'm guessing that for live, concious hosts-Eyghon's symbol is needed. But for dead or unconscious hosts, Eyghon can just force his way in without needing a symbol. So why did he paint the symbol on Marianne? I guess it was foreshadowing for people who didn't yet know that Eyghon is in this arc.

I can't remember, did Ethan Rayne remove his symbol with acid? I'm sure Buffy had her symbol removed (professionally?).


* Giles had two viewings, same day. One for as Faith tells Angel, “people like [them]. Then a second one, for normal folks. Family, friends… anyone who’d raise an eyebrow at a Cyclops sobbing in the back row. I was out of the loop on that one.”

So, Faith went to the wake for the people who were involved in Giles’ Watcher, Scoobies, etc. life (presumably Buffy and the Scoobies went; Spike may have went). But she didn’t go to the one for family and friends. Um, she got the entire estate! It’s incredibly rude of her not to go to both funerals. I’m sure those family and friends were curious about the random 20-something woman to whom Giles gave all his wealth.

I took it to mean that the first viewing was for humans and normal civilians, and that the second viewing was creatures like Cyclops' and other weird creatures that might mourn Giles but wouldn't fit in with the humans. That makes sense to me, there would be some humans who would be uncomfortable around weird creatures and it would be distracting and somewhat disrespectful if a relative spent the entire funeral staring at a real live Minotaur or whatever instead of thinking about Giles. Faith would have attended the viewing for the humans.


* Nadira has 11 other Slayers with her. Could the 12 have taken on Angel and Faith and killed them?

Yes, I'm sure 12 Slayers could have killed one vampire and one Slayer. They are keeping Angel alive for now in case the resurrection plan with Giles doesn't work out, they threatened Angel that he'd better figure something out to help them. It makes sense that they'd let him live for now.


* Angel to Sophornia and Lavinia: “Can you leave the planning to someone who’s actually done detective work?”

First off, FU Angel. They are Giles’ aunts and you’re – at best – the one who killed Giles and is simply trying to ease his own conscious and trying to get in a better place relationship-wise with Buffy.

Secondly, you suck at being a detective and told your employees at Angel Investigations that doing detective work is what you people are worst at doing.

Angel spent years doing fine detective work. If I remember correctly, the aunts were being annoying and distracting while Angel was trying to figure things out. Angel wasn't excessively rude here.


* Why is no one commenting on the fact that Angel is wearing glasses and can’t see well?

That's an affect of having Giles soul in his nipple. Angel has also been drinking tea lately.



* Lavinia while not being attracted to Ethan Rayne was attracted to Eyghon-Ethan Rayne.

We don't know for sure that Ethan is being possessed by Eyghon. I have a hunch that he's not, and that Ethan escaped death some other way. Why even have him in the story (and make a point about how he escaped cremation) if he's going to be just another Eyghon puppet? Also, why wait to the next issue before you reveal him? I think it's Ethan himself, either as a ghost, undead, demon or whatever. Or maybe he was able to use magic to make it only appear that he was shot. I think his role in this story will be to give Angel and Faith insight into dealing with Eyghon in the past. That's a role he would not be playing if he was just a meat puppet.


* Angel again acknowledges that he was Twilight and that he wasn’t under the influence or control of anything or anyone: “Ethan Rayne was being held by the U.S. Government. A General working for… well… me… shot him in his head. Murdered him. The security in that place… standard procedure was to cremate all remains. I never imagined he could’ve made it out.”

Just because Voll was working for Angel, that doesn't mean that Angel wasn't under the influence sometimes. We learned in #1 that Angel doesn't even remember watching Nash and Pearl kill the Slayers because he was fully possessed sometimes. Yes, Angel ran that facility and was in charge of Voll. That doesn't contradict that Angel sometimes experienced episodes where he wasn't quite himself. I imagine that it was a lot like Spike being sometimes triggered in season 7 where most of the time Spike was acting of his own accord, but every now and then he would wake up in a strange place and had done stuff that he didn't remember.


So, did Angel order General Voll to murder Ethan? Ethan was murdered after helping out Buffy.

I doubt it was a direct order, but he probably gave Voll authorization. I'd have to reread the issues. I imagine it was something along the lines of "if he tries to escape or gives away information about this facility I want you to kill him". Voll somehow knew that Buffy was going to rescue him from his cell. I imagine that Voll was interrogating Ethan prior to shooting him. He probably shot him so that he couldn't give away information to Buffy.


Who knows how many Slayers there actually were after “Chosen” (7.22)? The 1800 number was given after well over 1.5 years had already passed. Perhaps AngelTwilight and Co. had already killed a bunch of Slayers before Buffy and Co. finally tallied the numbers of Slayers in the world.

I think 1800 sounds like a reasonable number. There can't be too many Potential Slayers in the world, otherwise the Slayer dreams would be a commonly known phenomenon. I figure that the Twilight orgainization was only getting started around the same time -or possibly after, Buffy's organization. I doubt they actually started hunting down the Slayers until Harmony popularized vampires and demonized Slayers. This would have made the public look more favorably upon Twilight for hunting down Slayers and this happend around the same time that Angel started to "push" Buffy to evolve. Killing and cremating Slayers before Buffy tallied up the Slayers would serve no purpose. The whole point was to demoralize Buffy which wouldn't be achieved if she never knew about Slayers you were killing. And I find it more believable that the Twilight group was able to take advantage of Harmony making Slayers look bad. Otherwise it would just appear to the public that an evil organization is hunting down and killing teenage girls.


* So, Nadira and Co. are going to try to go after Drusilla and kill her?

I doubt Dru will appear again. I think she slipped away for now.


Well, if Eyghon and Co. doesn’t kill them maybe they’ll be killed by Dru.

I very much doubt Drusilla could take on a dozen Slayers at once.


Dru would probably like Eyghon and she would probably get Egyphon working for her.

Uh, yeah I doubt that. Eyghon is supposed to be pretty badass. She might like Eyghon, but I doubt she could get him to work "for" her. Vampires are considered by demons to be pretty low in the food chain. Most demons don't even like vampires.

If I remember correctly, the Lorophange was susceptible to Drusilla's hypnosis. We don't know that Eyghon would be susceptible. The Lorophange seemed to have low intelligence and wasn't capable of speaking which might explain why it could be a "pet" for a vampire. Eyghon does not share the Lorophange's lower intelligence, and would not have the same kind of relationship. Also worth noting is that the Lorophange seemed to follow partly because Drusilla was providing him with with trauma victims and in return he was providing her with groupies who would donate blood. What could Drusilla provide for Eyghon that he's not already getting for himself?



* Eyghon actually seems a lot less powerful than the necromancer from Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red”.

Not sure if “Paint the Town Red” is still canon, but I hope it is.

"Paint the Town Red" was never canon. I'll have to read it again to judge how powerful the necromancer was, but I doubt he was as powerful as Eyghon.


* Faith has a desktop computer (which generally are more powerful than laptops and certainly have bigger screens) and yet she’s not only using a laptop, she using a mouse with the laptop.

I have no idea what brand the laptop possibly is but it is the first non-Apple product (that I remember seeing) in the comics.

Is Faith somehow against Apple products (she can surely afford them), is Apple no longer doing product placement, or has Apple forbid DarkHorse from depicting obvious Apple products? It’s glaring that the computers aren’t Apples.

I have no idea why this stuff would be relevant or important. If Faith is using a computer that's not an Apple, that doesn't necessarily mean that she's "against" Apple products. The compute that I'm typing on right now isn't an Apple. I'm not against Apple.

I imagine stuff like computer brands would be left up to the artist to depict however they please. I can't see it being included in the script unless the writer considered it to be an important detail. I can't imagine Gage including a note for Issacs saying "Faith is typing on a computer in this scene but remember to show that it's NOT and Apple because Faith is against Apple's".

I don't know how the politics with Apple would go, but I can't imagine them stepping in and telling Dark Horse NOT to advertise their products.


* Angel says, “Ethan Rayne died in top-secret custody. He was never declared dead.”

I can’t imagine that that’s where Riley meant to send Ethan or that’s what Riley wanted. And probably Giles would have wanted to contact Ethan every now and then.

I very much doubt that Giles wanted to contact Ethan ever again. Ethan represented a stage in Giles life that he was trying to leave behind. Not to mention all the horrible stuff that Ethan had done since season 2.

As for being in top secret custody, that makes sense. Ethan has magical skills that would make him too dangerous to keep in a normal jail. I imagine that the government considered him a terrorist and I wasn't surprised at all at the way he was locked up.


While it’s possible that the U.S. Government did this, it seems more likely this is Angel’s doing.

I always figured that the US Government was working with Angel/Twilight and was behind him most of the way.


* So, Angel knew this whole time that Eyghon had part of Giles’ soul and the plan all along was to kill Eyghon?

I'm not 100% sure what you are talking about here. In the episode "The Dark Age" where Angel supposedly killed Eyghon, I doubt very much that he considered that Eyghon had a piece of Giles soul.


* In the flashback, Giles is trying to exorcise Eyghon from his friend and he’s using the Catholic rites. Ethan says it’s not working because Eyghon isn’t Catholic. Ethan thinks Eyphon’s Etruscan. Giles says that while they found Eyghon in Etruscan writings, he’s far older. And that Giles has “tried every other rite of exorcism that [he’s] aware of.”

What is this saying? That demons have certain religions?

I doubt that the demon itself follows the religion. But I imagine that different rituals from different religions are effective against different types of demon. For instance, Christian symbols work on vampires and Ethros demon's. Tibet Buhdism rituals can be used to control werewolves.


* Does Buffy’s body and soul belong to Eyghon? Ethan’s the one who put the mark on her over her express objections. And obviously Eyghon didn’t use Buffy’s body, although maybe that’s simply because Buffy’s body has a powerful demon inside it.

I don't think a Slayer has an actual demon inside it, their strength comes from the essence of a demon, but they are 100% human as evidenced by Spike's chip firing (prior to Buffy's mystical sunburn) and the fact that Slayers age and can be sired. I don't think there is an actual demon. I think Faith was able to fight at one point when the Hyperion had a non-violence spell against demons.

I don't think Buffy belongs to Eyghon because she had the tattoo removed. Same reason why I don't believe Ethan belongs to him either. I do wonder why Giles never had it removed though.



* Essentially, Scott Allie is acknowledging that we don’t have to believe anything Whistler told Angel in A&F 1.13.

I don't know about "anything". I don't think we can 100% just dismiss everything that Whistler told us. That would make the whole issue seem like a waste of time.


Whistler being the son of a Power That Be and a pure demon could simply be why he’s so powerful.

No doubt.


The thing that’s probably the most important to the Buffyverse is if Powers That Be are humanoid. That would mean that Jasmine was never a Power That Be, something that never made sense anyway.

How does Jasmine not make sense? She tricked Cordelia into ascending into a higher plane. Then when Cordelia was booted out of the higher plane (with no memories) Jasmine was able to hitch a ride back inside Cordelia. Then when they did a spell to restore Cordy's memories, Jasmine was able to completely take over. Then she had sex with Connor so that Cordelia would give birth to Jasmine. After this, Cordelia went into a coma that she eventually died from. Later the PTB temporarily sent her back to guide Angel because they owed her a favour because one of their own had hijacked her body. Why would the PTB owe Cordy a favour if it hadn't been a renegade PTB that took her over? If Jasmine was never supposed to be a PTB, don't you think they'd explain it more explicitly?


As for the PTB using humaniod forms, I figure they need to take humanoid forms when they are on earth for extended periods of time. Jasmine only turned into a tentacle thing when she needed to eat, the rest of the time she was humanoid. The same might be true for Whistler's father.


And it could mean that Glorificus actually was a Power that Be, and that she simply was power hungry and wanted to rule a dimension.

How on earth does it make sense for Glory to be a PTB, but Jasmine to not be a PTB? Why not just go with the exposition? Glory was a Hellgod, Jasmine was a PTB.

Jack Shaftoe
28-12-12, 10:59 PM
* Angel says, “Ethan Rayne died in top-secret custody. He was never declared dead.”

I can’t imagine that that’s where Riley meant to send Ethan

To use one of your favourite replies - huh? It was Riley who mentioned that Ethan was going to "a secret detention facility in the Nevada desert" back in A New Man.


What could Drusilla provide for Eyghon that he's not already getting for himself?

Clearly you don't understand that Drusilla is an uber-badass demon summoner/spell caster. Think about it - if Spike can cast a spell to stop Acathla, surely Drusilla can easily find a way to make Eyghon obey her? :)


I can't remember, did Ethan Rayne remove his symbol with acid?

Yes, he did. I am really starting to wonder if Gage will manage to explain all the inconsistencies regarding Eyghon.

_Buffy_
03-01-13, 12:51 PM
IMO the idea of Eyghon Demon is not well founded. Eyghon has been killed back in S 3 in BTVS. IMO it is not appropriate to bring this demon back in such a lame way. Also and Eathen . And Eahten also removed his symbol with acid, so he didn't have connection with the demon anymore. I was thinking that Angel would use The Mohra demon blood to ressurect Giles. Now when Eyghon is in the game again , it becomes a complicated and lame schemes IMO . I don't mind to be complicated , but to be well founded and plausible is better.

BTW the young Giles with english flag t-shirt was priceless.:D

MikeB
28-01-13, 09:01 AM
Jack Shaftoe


It was Riley who mentioned that Ethan was going to "a secret detention facility in the Nevada desert" back in A New Man. Yeah, but in a place where they don’t declare the person dead and where they cremate the body? Even people at Gitmo probably get proper Muslim burials.


* I concede that technically Eyghon wouldn’t have use for Drusilla and she probably wouldn’t have use for him either.