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View Full Version : Buffy 8.09 "No Future For You", Part IV Discussion Thread



KingofCretins
04-12-07, 06:32 PM
Five page preview released today... issue comes out tomorrow --

Buffy 8.09 "No Future For You", Part IV (http://www.popcultureshock.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-season-8-9-preview/42969/)

Wow... very awesome *new* content from off-screen in Season 3 between the Faith and Mayor, and Vaughan has Wilkins down perfectly.

As for the current situation? Well, Faith still has some fight in her...

Nostalgia
05-12-07, 01:05 AM
Yeah.. I just read it.. I'm so pumped for the final act. I really didn't expect Faith to put out her angry side.. I knew she was duping her but what happened to the reconciling? Well, looks like we can throw away the "pushing Buffy to save Gigi" possibility that some have speculated.

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 01:07 AM
Oh, I don't dismiss that out of hand. Faith is in a pretty raw place emotionally herself. She just then tried to reach out to Genevieve and explain and got nothing but snot from her. So, the beatdown ensues.

I kinda wonder whether or not the real tragedy of Genevieve is that she's clearly overmatched not only by Buffy, the "queen of the Slayers", but by Faith as well.

alexa
05-12-07, 01:30 AM
I didn't resist reading that for very long. I wanted to smack down GiGi myself. Bloody hell, she needs to get over herself, living in her little bubble.
I liked the Boston Tea Party nod. :)

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 01:34 AM
The best was that Faith took being referred to as a New Yawka as more painful that getting hit, I think.

Based on that last preview panel, not only has Faith, at least temporarily, disarmed Genevieve, she's still interested in a dialogue -- she seems like she's about to go on to explain her motives and the broader situation. The very first opportunity (and last, if she doesn't take it) Genevieve will have to learn the truth outside of the "bubble" she lives in.

Weredog
05-12-07, 01:40 AM
Standing ovation for Faith when she kicked Gigi across the yard!
And the Mayor -- that was beyond awesome. It felt like watching the musical sequence in "Selfless." I am not sleeping tonight. Staying up til I get the next issue.

My only complaint will have to be, again, how Faith was drawn. I'm sorry but was that Willow in the first panel? 'Cause that couldn't be Faith. The one where she looks down saying "Thanks" looks like Faith, though.

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 01:43 AM
My only complaint will have to be, again, how Faith was drawn. I'm sorry but was that Willow in the first panel? 'Cause that couldn't be Faith. The one where she looks down saying "Thanks" looks like Faith, though.

This is the kind of thing I think is just unfair. I have to assume you're using the idea of mistaking her for Willow as a bit of hyperbole, because... with the arc being about Faith... and the narration being by Faith... and the outfit being the same one we've seen her in before... and the context being a scene with *the Mayor*... is there actually a mistake to be made about who that is?

Nostalgia
05-12-07, 01:46 AM
Any predictions? I honestly think we will have to watch out for Faith in terms of survival. What was that quote you had again Kings, kind of giving up hope for survival?

Maybe it would be too early actually.. I just know they're going to leave on a bad note.. whether that's Faith dying or not.. there's going to be some revelation.

Weredog
05-12-07, 01:49 AM
I have to assume you're using the idea of mistaking her for Willow as a bit of hyperbole, because... with the arc being about Faith... and the narration being by Faith... and the outfit being the same one we've seen her in before... and the context being a scene with *the Mayor*... is there actually a mistake to be made about who that is?

Of course it's a hyperbole. I didn't actually scratch my head and asked aloud "Oh, dear, why is Willow talking to the Mayor?!" Of course I knew it was Faith, I was commenting how Faith in that panel looked more like Willow than Faith herself.

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 01:53 AM
I just spotted something very profound... Faith's first narration is "Evil scumbag. That's what most people think about the last guy to put me in a dress."

I think it's very significant that Faith is obviously drawing a parallel now between Wilkins and Giles. It almost makes me wonder if, by the end of this that we'll be at a moment not unlike the one at the end of "Harsh Light of Day", but instead of Buffy, Harmony, and Anya wronged by lovers, we'll have a convergent look at the relationships between Buffy and Giles, Faith and Wilkins, and Genevieve and Roden.

Seriously, "No Future For You" could place itself in the top 10 Buffy 'episodes' of all time when this issue hits.

Nostalgia
05-12-07, 02:01 AM
Seriously, "No Future For You" could place itself in the top 10 Buffy 'episodes' of all time when this issue hits.

Oh I'm on the same boat... I already cried top 20.. but I'd have to really really die for the final act for it to be top 10.. it's definitely possible.. and I never had any clue that Brian K. Vaughn was such a great writer. Imagine if he was on the boat with the last 7 seasons..

sueworld
05-12-07, 02:02 AM
My only complaint will have to be, again, how Faith was drawn. I'm sorry but was that Willow in the first panel? 'Cause that couldn't be Faith. The one where she looks down saying "Thanks" looks like Faith, though.

Yes, sadly she looks about 12 in that drawing. Seems to be happening a lot to the women in this comic.

The Mayor looked great though. So pleased to see him again, even if it is just for a flashback.

God I miss him.

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 02:05 AM
Yes, sadly she looks about 12 in that drawing. Seems to be happening a lot to the women in this comic.

When not being oversexualized and exploited ;)


Oh I'm on the same boat... I already cried top 20.. but I'd have to really really die for the final act for it to be top 10.. it's definitely possible.. and I never had any clue that Brian K. Vaughn was such a great writer. Imagine if he was on the boat with the last 7 seasons..

I think it's really going to work for me, because I started watching Season 3 with "Helpless" today while studying and am about to start "Dopplegangland" and will probably run the rest of the Season... so my context for reading 8.09 will be the Faith-Mayor relationship.

alexa
05-12-07, 02:16 AM
Hmm yeah I love this episode as a whole.. if I count all four issues. The Long Way Home p2 is still my favourite single issue though.

I have lots of free time today, I might watch some season 3 :D

I hope there is more Giles...

I think Jeanty nails Faith sometimes, and not so much others, but it's hard to draw precise likeness for every angle! I'm a fan of Georges now, at least you can see all the detail.. and Joss likes to fit in lots of info in every scene.

sueworld
05-12-07, 02:17 AM
When not being oversexualized and exploited


That and being ridiculously young looking. *g* But then I really don't like his artwork all that much I'm afraid.


I hope there is more Giles...

Oh god same here. So much for the whole 'core four' business. We've hardly seen anything of the character. The cynic in me would say it's because he's an older man, not a nymphet looking Potential that he gets the short straw when it comes to any real 'screen time'.

Nostalgia
05-12-07, 02:20 AM
Hmm yeah I love this episode as a whole.. if I count all four issues. The Long Way Home p2 is still my favourite single issue though.

I have lots of free time today, I might watch some season 3 :D

I hope there is more Giles...

I think Jeanty nails Faith sometimes, and not so much others, but it's hard to draw precise likeness for every angle! I'm a fan of Georges now, at least you can see all the detail.. and Joss likes to fit in lots of info in every scene.

You can't really look at single issues though (unless a standalone).. because they are episodes as a whole.. just in small increments.. once the issue hits tomorrow.. there's a good chance it will be one of the best Buffy episodes written in a long time.. dating back to Dirty Girls.

Weredog
05-12-07, 02:54 AM
I hope there is more Giles...

I agree. I feel like Dark Horse haven't been promoting this arc right (similar to how UPN marketed the series.) For example, remember way before the covers were even released, Dark Horse announced that "Giles and Faith travel in Britain for the mission of her life" (more or less)? Though they were technically right, I feel like they gave a false sense that Giles was going to be the sidekick of the arc. As we have seen, he isn't. Giles served this purpose in the first issue, but in the last two he had few lines in a single scene.
I know there are things that need to be dealt with in "No Future for You" in the expense of Giles, I just feel let down after feeling like this was going to be his co-arc.

Nostalgia
05-12-07, 03:13 AM
Considering all we saw was him and Faith in the first two arcs.. I'd say we've seen a pretty good deal of Giles in this issue. It's a hell of a lot more than TLWH and The Chain.. and he's going to pop his head in issue 4.

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 07:23 AM
I gotta think that we're either going to get Giles involved with whatever ultimately plays out between Faith and Genevieve or seeing what happens with Buffy calling him on the carpet, or both. My local comic store opens in about 8 or 9 hours :)

Wolfie Gilmore
05-12-07, 09:58 AM
Loving Faith's dissection of her relationship with the Mayor, and her nuanced view of what makes someone worthwhile, despite their flaws. Or evilness. Liked the "snake not a dog" line.



Based on that last preview panel, not only has Faith, at least temporarily, disarmed Genevieve, she's still interested in a dialogue -- she seems like she's about to go on to explain her motives and the broader situation. The very first opportunity (and last, if she doesn't take it) Genevieve will have to learn the truth outside of the "bubble" she lives in.

It seems that Faith's experience of being on the wrong side of the evil tracks has given her insights that perhaps Buffy doesn't have - a willingness to try talking. Ok, talking while hitting someone. But still, serious discussion, not just snark! Since she's been The Lawless rather than The Law, she's had an odd kind of luxury - the luxury of not being in a position to judge, and so, perhaps, easier to be merciful and understanding of someone's human failings? Even while they're trying to kill you?

Gigi, seriously girl, I have two words for you. Waterproof. Mascara.

vampmogs
05-12-07, 12:07 PM
Okay I was just going to wait until I've seen the whole final issue before posting but decided might as well start posting now.

First off- very surprised Faith still has some fight in her. She looked so defeated at the end of 8.08 that I was worried she'd simply let Gigi go "off with her head." I was pleasantly surprised with Faith's reaction. Anyone else notice how she just seems sick and tired of playing nice and is pretty much going to say it how it is, and is possibly see herself in Gigi? She is telling her to get over it basically, and then gets right to the arse kicking after Gigi strikes her first- love it.

Did anyone else notice the transition from Faith talking about the Mayor saying how she never felt anything but loved, as we see a shot of Roden urging Gigi on to kill Faith? Don't think it is a coincidence. Gigi feels like Roden is the only one who she can trust, she even feels somewhat loved by him. And like the Mayor he is leading her down the wrong path, but I wonder just how much he is like the Mayor? We've all speculated that Roden is just using Gigi, I remember lots of people speculated at the time Graduation Day Part I aired, that the Mayor was using Faith all along and used her as bait with the poison only a slayer's blood could cure. However, they were all proven wrong when part 2 aired and the Mayor's real genuine feelings towards the Mayor was shown in the hospital scene, did we all read Roden wrong? Does he really genuinely care about Faith?

The art is also great this issue, the best we've seen in this arc this far. I've never really had a big problem with it, but something about this issue from what we've seen is standing out to me for some reason.

Sosa lola
05-12-07, 12:19 PM
My only complaint will have to be, again, how Faith was drawn. I'm sorry but was that Willow in the first panel? 'Cause that couldn't be Faith. The one where she looks down saying "Thanks" looks like Faith, though.

I knew she was Faith right away. I've noticed she looked younger, which was what they were going for, younger, happier, flowery, girly Faith who considered The Mayor a father.

vampmogs
05-12-07, 12:35 PM
I knew she was Faith right away. I've noticed she looked younger, which was what they were going for, younger, happier, flowery, girly Faith who considered The Mayor a father.

You know I was actually thinking the same thing. I actually loved how she did look considerably younger in this scene, why? Because the scene represented a girl looking up to her father like a small innocent child, oblivious to the path he was leading her, wanting so desperately for his approval. It symbolised what Faith was feeling, and I loved it. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were very intentional Jeanty chose to draw her in this way.

What I've loved about Jeanty's drawings is how they convey so much as to what the character is feeling, even if they don't always look exactly like the person who played them. I can see the emotions, he does it so well, far more than I can in the images of the Ats comic.

Phoenix
05-12-07, 12:47 PM
Wow. Those few pages look amazing :) Looking heaps forward to getting this tomorow! Although Faith does look a little too young in the panels with the Mayor, but I agree it portrays how she was feeling, like happier and looking up to a Father figure.
I think this might be another favourite issue of mine :)

Wolfie Gilmore
05-12-07, 01:07 PM
I just spotted something very profound... Faith's first narration is "Evil scumbag. That's what most people think about the last guy to put me in a dress."

I think it's very significant that Faith is obviously drawing a parallel now between Wilkins and Giles. It almost makes me wonder if, by the end of this that we'll be at a moment not unlike the one at the end of "Harsh Light of Day", but instead of Buffy, Harmony, and Anya wronged by lovers, we'll have a convergent look at the relationships between Buffy and Giles, Faith and Wilkins, and Genevieve and Roden.

Seriously, "No Future For You" could place itself in the top 10 Buffy 'episodes' of all time when this issue hits.

Very interesting observation. Virtual rep points! (must spread 'em around!) The use of parallels throughout this arc has been great - and particularly apt for Faith, who's a character who operates in the realm of dualism in ways that other characters (eg Spike) don't. In the same way that Angel does, perhaps, or similar.

She's defined in opposition to Buffy and often echoes Buffy's relationships (or tries to pinch them!). Now Gigi is another mirror for Faith...dark slayers lave darker slayers on their backs to bite 'em. ;)

So, uses of mirrors and echoes (eg Giles/Mayor) are all of a piece with Faith's character. Form fitting theme beautifully. :)

vampmogs
05-12-07, 01:32 PM
I just spotted something very profound... Faith's first narration is "Evil scumbag. That's what most people think about the last guy to put me in a dress."

Perhaps even a little shout to the fans. Seeing that this isn't too far off what the general fandom has been feeling towards Giles during this arc :p

Wolfie Gilmore
05-12-07, 01:42 PM
Perhaps even a little shout to the fans. Seeing that this isn't too far off what the general fandom has been feeling towards Giles during this arc :p

Tee hee! I hope so, funny!

Realising if I just write that it sounds spammy. But interesting also that they're bringing up the issue of clothing - which has always been kind of a running commentary in Buffy. Fashion choices are actually significant sometimes. And the fact that Faith isn't actually choosing her own clothes in both instances...says a lot about her role as instrument and child/ward rather than as a woman. So you might even say that getting nekkid with Gigi was her way of sloughing off the costume Giles put her in (just as she got rid of his earpiece).

You might also sound a bit like you were trying to explain away the nudity of course. But, I choose to ignore that :D

vampmogs
05-12-07, 01:47 PM
Realising if I just write that it sounds spammy. But interesting also that they're bringing up the issue of clothing - which has always been kind of a running commentary in Buffy. Fashion choices are actually significant sometimes. And the fact that Faith isn't actually choosing her own clothes in both instances...says a lot about her role as instrument and child/ward rather than as a woman. So you might even say that getting nekkid with Gigi was her way of sloughing off the costume Giles put her in (just as she got rid of his earpiece).

You might also sound a bit like you were trying to explain away the nudity of course. But, I choose to ignore that :D

You've actually brought up a really good point. Both the Mayor and Giles were dressing up Faith like they wanted her, as if she was their doll or as you say 'tool.' They tell her how to act, how to think and what to do, they dress her up how they want her to be viewed. Getting all fleshy and naked was Faith's way of being released from that. This idea fits well with the symoblism of Jo Chen's 8.09 cover with Faith standing naked in the flames as she burns the dress Giles made her wear. The way I see it, is Faith is burning away what Giles tried to make her become and as she stands their naked, that is the real Faith.

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 01:55 PM
You've actually brought up a really good point. Both the Mayor and Giles were dressing up Faith like they wanted her, as if she was their doll or as you say 'tool.' They tell her how to act, how to think and what to do, they dress her up how they want her to be viewed. Getting all fleshy and naked was Faith's way of being released from that. This idea fits well with the symoblism of Jo Chen's 8.09 cover with Faith standing naked in the flames as she burns the dress Giles made her wear. The way I see it, is Faith is burning away what Giles tried to make her become and as she stands their naked, that is the real Faith.

That's pretty awesome. You know what they should do, is find a way to explore the idea of women as dolls in our society, on which meaning is assigned as easily as clothing. That would be a brilliant pitch for a televis-- oh, hey Eliza. Didn't see you were up. Coffee, hon?


So you might even say that getting nekkid with Gigi was her way of sloughing off the costume Giles put her in (just as she got rid of his earpiece).

You might also sound a bit like you were trying to explain away the nudity of course. But, I choose to ignore that

You know... this is actually more worth mentioning than you might have thought typing it. That is still implicated in Genevieve's outraged "... into my sodding *tub*!" when confronting Faith about her lies. Not to mention the major league slashiness of the statement.

vampmogs
05-12-07, 02:00 PM
That's pretty awesome. You know what they should do, is find a way to explore the idea of women as dolls in our society, on which meaning is assigned as easily as clothing. That would be a brilliant pitch for a televis-- oh, hey Eliza. Didn't see you were up. Coffee, hon?

Ha! I assume of course your making reference to the awesomeness that will be 'Dollhouse' whenever it will actually be made. *grumbles angrily at the writers strike*


You know... this is actually more worth mentioning than you might have thought typing it. That is still implicated in Genevieve's outraged "... into my sodding *tub*!" when confronting Faith about her lies. Not to mention the major league slashiness of the statement.

That line struck me as particularly important as well. And I think it gives a deeper meaning to the tub scene some called just an opportunity to pander to some fanboys ;) People had speculated that the scene was all about trust, about letting Faith in. And Gigi's outrage that she invited Faith into her tub after learning the truth about her is basically Gigi being outraged she let someone in close and they did this to her. It was a deeply personal and intimate moment for her. And WAS NOT just an excuse for Joss and Vaughn to show off some flesh! God I love this arc.

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 04:34 PM
Okay... here goes. Episode details discussed below.








This may be the best piece of episodic writing ("No Future For You") ever in the Buffy series that wasn't a Joss Whedon credit.

If you take the emotional turmoil of the relationships from "Helpless", "Seeing Red", and "End of Days" and give it the moral significance of the fights in "Graduation, Part I" and the Angel episode "Release", and then insert the overwhelming portent of fear and anxiety for the characters that you love so much from "Conversations with Dead People", you'd be in the ballpark of describing what Brian K. Vaughan was able to do for Season 8 in just the 3rd "episode" of the season.

I am still trembling, and trying not to cry.

Genevieve is dead, and so is Roden. Genevieve never even had a chance to hear the truth... she died by accident, basically, doomed on her own axe as Faith tried to get through to her as they fought. Roden, destroyed by Giles, saving Faith from his attack.

Giles and Buffy's relationship is functionally over at this point -- not only does Giles refuse to explain himself, he cuts off Buffy by demanding to exclude her altogether and deal only with Willow for help. The implication is awful and still has me mad at Giles, because he seems to only have room in his club for other people he thinks are 'killers' now. And Buffy is devastated to have her father betray her so, clearly. I wasn't entirely wrong -- this issue is all about fathers and daughters.

Faith makes an impressive decision not to retire, but instead to turn away from the active Slaying and become a mentor, a counselor of sorts for wayward Slayers, to try to save them like she clearly wanted to do for Genevieve. Her arc is very reminiscent of Angel's, and in many ways, "No Future For You" tracks for her as the same mission that Angel picks up in "City of..." She won't be alone, either -- Giles is going with her. They've both cashed out of the Slayer game.

The scariest part of this story, though, is saved for its last few pages. Because, that feeling of seething anger that you feel, over how the characters have failed each other in fellowship and trust? It was designed. It was the *plan*.

Twilight's plan. The eponymous villain appears at last, explaining just that -- that the point of the exercise is to get the heroes to unherofy themselves, to unmake the bonds that made them strong in the first place, and in so doing to bring about the hope that they can provide. To end the age of magic, in more ways than one. Honestly, it's the most horror and exhilaration I've felt in "Buffy" since CassieFirst said "Not it... *me*".

I'll get to work on the transcript.

Great... now rather than just trembly and weepy, I feel sick to my stomach.

On a second reading, the last scene with Twilight -- nothing more than him getting an update from an underling -- includes this line...


Underling: "You're not gonna be walking on air when you hear what I have to say. Our man on the inside confirms that Summers is still alive. Your goons failed."

Our man... on the inside.

Joss Whedon... if you are setting up Xander Harris as a traitor, conspiring to murder one or both of the two people who he has loved and been loved by more than any others in the entire history of his life, up to and including his parents... I am going to take a @#$@ing match to every one of these comics, and possibly to over $200 worth of DVDs as well. That would be the big old "EFF YOU" to any fans who have used him as their access point to the series.

There are all these interesting and new characters for whom we are already forming an emotional investment. Renee, Leah, Satsu, Rowena. One of them. Not Xander, not Willow, if you have any compassion for your audience at all.

Wolfie Gilmore
05-12-07, 04:46 PM
You've actually brought up a really good point. Both the Mayor and Giles were dressing up Faith like they wanted her, as if she was their doll or as you say 'tool.'

Which makes me think that the crossover between dolls and tools, which is...robots. And perhaps that's how Giles thinks he can use Faith, as a remote control slaybot? Who won't suddenly decide to do her own thing. It takes the dwarf dude to point out the possibility that Faith may not actually follow Giles's mission.




Has anyone else read the Manga, Doll? Definitely coming to mind in this context.

[quote]
Getting all fleshy and naked was Faith's way of being released from that.

And nudity and rebirth are often used together in the Jossverse - think of Angel back from Hell, or Spike in "Hellbound", where he has to have his layers of clothing stripped away in order to regain his power over himself. And it had NOTHING to do with pandering to fangirls, oh no... ;)

Spoiler for random association...

Puppet!Angel: My nose comes off.
Spike: My sympathies, mate. My clothes come off.



This idea fits well with the symoblism of Jo Chen's 8.09 cover with Faith standing naked in the flames as she burns the dress Giles made her wear. The way I see it, is Faith is burning away what Giles tried to make her become and as she stands their naked, that is the real Faith.

Interesting, I hadn't looked closely at that cover. Nice observation.


That's pretty awesome. You know what they should do, is find a way to explore the idea of women as dolls in our society, on which meaning is assigned as easily as clothing. That would be a brilliant pitch for a televis-- oh, hey Eliza. Didn't see you were up. Coffee, hon?

Tut tut, casting couch? That never ends well ;)



You know... this is actually more worth mentioning than you might have thought typing it. That is still implicated in Genevieve's outraged "... into my sodding *tub*!" when confronting Faith about her lies. Not to mention the major league slashiness of the statement.

Mmm, slash. But also, deep meaningy goodness. Winning combo!


People had speculated that the scene was all about trust, about letting Faith in. And Gigi's outrage that she invited Faith into her tub after learning the truth about her is basically Gigi being outraged she let someone in close and they did this to her. It was a deeply personal and intimate moment for her.

Yes - and for the reader, too. And not in a pervy way. Or not only. ;) And for Faith, I think. When she says in the promo that the fake name etc didn't make the rest a lie...I think she's telling the truth. I think she does care for Gigi. And she's not able to see her as just a means to an end (getting her own freedom), nor even as someone evil who must be stopped. Faith's seen Gigi as a person (a naked, nubile person...what? Nothing!) and she can't turn that off.


And WAS NOT just an excuse for Joss and Vaughn to show off some flesh! God I love this arc.

Yup. Is gold.

Maggie
05-12-07, 06:36 PM
Some reactions:

Good catch on the 'our man' on the inside. I missed it on my quick first read. Since this is Joss, we can't rule out that it's Xander. But right now I'm going with Andrew. That's assuming that 'our man' must, in fact, be male. Course, your assumption that 'our man' could be generic opens up the field. It isn't any fun feeling like Joss could really gore your ox, is it?

I'm not sure yet how I feel about this issue. The first issues set things up so very well. I'm glad Faith found the strength to keep fighting. I'm glad she kept faith (ha ha) with Giles. I'm glad Giles is keeping faith with her. I'm just not quite sure where any of that is coming from. Maybe it's because I'm new to comics. The few 'bonding' scenes we had in the first few issues of the arc -- were they to stand in for a real development of trust between Faith and Giles? I like the idea of that development. But it feels a bit 'easy' -- especially since everything had been building to such an angsty spot for Faith.

Similarly, it turns out that what we've really been building to is an intensely angsty spot for Buffy. It's not a shocking development. I get the idea that Giles has assumed (falsely, we hope) that he can't show his darker side to his 'good' slayer. This has continuity with the series if we assume that Giles and Buffy's growing estrangement crucially begain in The Gift, when Giles killed Ben. But as always I want more story on this.

I wonder how much that sudden break between Giles and Buffy (two short pages!) is to do with Buffy's sudden reversion to being all-hostile about Faith. Where there had been promise in the last issue that Buffy might have room to hear Faith's side, even after the near-drowning -- here Buffy's rage seems to be focused on the fact that Giles was working with "HER" and leads her to lump Faith in with Gigi. Not pretty. Anyway, Giles' main motive for not wanting Buffy to be a part of it is certainly to protect her from the 'dirty works', but I wonder if it isn't also a way of being protective of Faith. Not sure. There's so little information to go on -- though I look forward to hearing the comments of others.

It's a big upside-down world. Giles does right by Faith but not by Buffy. I'm glad for Faith. But boy that's a big whammy for Buffy. Hate that it seems to have to go one way or the other. Lots to ponder on all of this. And as Faith and Giles ride off into the sunset together, I've gotta ask if they're riding off into the sunset *together*.

I love the way Giles defeats Roden. Gigi's fate really is tragic... though I didn't much care for her dialogue.

And... I agree with what King says about the villain reveal. Any chance he's related to the cyborgs we saw on Lineage? The face mask might be the same. Though the cyborgs did use magic, and it's not clear how that relates to a campaign to get rid of magic.

bishopcruz
05-12-07, 08:41 PM
Whoa. seriously, BKV is one of hte best comics writers around and it shows. Joss may be good, but honestly it really is hard to top Vaughn. This issue was amazing. I felt for absolutely everyone. Buffy, Faith, and Giles. It's gonna be hard to top this issue.

Things I liked:

Giles' dealing with Roden.
The fact that Roden got all veiny when using his magic.
Faith's reaction to Gigi's death, and the final scenes.
Buffy and Giles, wow, something HAS to have happened in that year and a half to have these two in the place they are.
The fight scenes overall, much, much better than in TLWH.


Things I didn't:

Jeanty is getting a lot better, but at times things still feel a bit 'off' to me.
Gigi's dialog was awful, really, really, awful.
Buffy's reactions to Faith, seemed a tad bit off, though let's be honest, while I love the girl, she can be a bit of a bitca at times.


Probably the best issue so far though. Can't wait to see where it goes.

also

I agree with KoC, Xander being a traitor just makes NO sense, so it has to be someone else. If it is Xander, well, we hunt down Joss.

nester
05-12-07, 08:52 PM
I guess Xander as a traitor is a possibility, but it conflicts with one of the interviews Vaughan did. Either he was purposefully being misleading or he's not in the loop in regards to the season arc.

Brian K. Vaughan
IF I HAD TO WRITE THE FINAL BUFFY STORY, I WOULD... I’m f---ing ready to write it tomorrow, are you kidding? I always thought it would be kind of poignant to just have Buffy and [her friend] Xander be the last two people left, and have them reminisce about high school. The point being that, while you’re going through high school, it seems like hell, but once you’re old you begin looking at high school like it used to be paradise. So maybe that’s a Buffy reveal: When Xander asks Buffy what heaven was like, she says, “Like high school, just with you and my friends.” That’s lovely, right? Like all of my stories, it’s two old people talking. [Laughs]

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 08:53 PM
I'm going to stop using spoilers after today, but I had a couple more thoughts about the developments at the end of the issue.

I'm no longer really worried that Xander or Dawn or Willow would actually be thrown away on a traitor arc. But... anyone want to lay odds that if you got your hands on Renee's driver's license, the last name would be "Molter"?

Also, the 8.09 transcript is now posted :)

Maggie
05-12-07, 09:03 PM
I'm no longer really worried that Xander or Dawn or Willow would actually be thrown away on a traitor arc. But... anyone want to lay odds that if you got your hands on Renee's driver's license, the last name would be "Molter"?

Also, the 8.09 transcript is now posted :)

Splainy?

Are you seeing anything more than that the two women in question are black?

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 09:15 PM
Don't overthink it, is the lesson I learned from the true love's kiss. Was there anything to see other than that cinnamon lip gloss can be transferred by a kiss. There's no racial profiling here. Look at some of the contextual clues.

Lt. Molter is the point of contact for the person inside, apparently, and that person is highly enough placed to know that Buffy survived without any apparent passage of time -- a BHC occupant, for instance.
Twilight negotiated, or at least claimed, to be willing to give clemency to one 'magic user' in Roden -- stands to reason he'd use it again. I'll come back to this one.
Look from inside the castle toward the outside -- who, outside the core scoobies who should be (if Joss respects his audience at all, anyway) above suspicion, is the one with their fingers in the most pie? Actively taking part in their operations stuff from the command center, stepping up to be take messages between Buffy and Willow, about security no less, and taking an almost uncanny interest in Xander?

You've been reading the Dark Horse forum -- my post about it being Leah or Renee was before I even (on the third reading) noticed Lt. Molter was black... and I've been reading Season 8 for months and only had it *pointed out for me* that Renee is. So I'll feel free and proud to take TREMENDOUS offense at an implication that I'm making a racial judgment.

Back to the Faustian deal thing... scenario. Buffy's "narrow-ass" is responsible for creating the Slayers, so is naturally going to probably be pretty unpopular against families that feel she's taken their daughters and sisters from them. Now there's this guy whose plan is to destroy Buffy, Slayers, and all magic who, if you'll just help him get what he needs, will spare *your* loved one. Your Slayer... daughter, perhaps?

In an issue, and arc, that was all about manipulative and broken relationships between daughters and their parents, is it possible we've been introduced to yet another manipulative parent, but one that's trying to save her kid's life?

Maggie
05-12-07, 09:37 PM
Don't overthink it, is the lesson I learned from the true love's kiss. Was there anything to see other than that cinnamon lip gloss can be transferred by a kiss. There's no racial profiling here. Look at some of the contextual clues.

Lt. Molter is the point of contact for the person inside, apparently, and that person is highly enough placed to know that Buffy survived without any apparent passage of time -- a BHC occupant, for instance.
Twilight negotiated, or at least claimed, to be willing to give clemency to one 'magic user' in Roden -- stands to reason he'd use it again. I'll come back to this one.
Look from inside the castle toward the outside -- who outside the core scoobies who should be (if Joss respects his audience at all, anyway) be above suspicion) is the one with their fingers in the most pie? Actively taking part in their operations stuff from the command center, stepping up to be take messages between Buffy and Willow, about security no less, and taking an almost uncanny interest in Xander?

You've been reading the Dark Horse forum -- my post about it being Leah or Renee was before I even (on the third reading) noticed Lt. Molter was black... and I've been reading Season 8 for months and only had it *pointed out for me* that Renee is. So I'll feel free and proud to take TREMENDOUS offense at an implication that I'm making a racial judgment.

Didn't mean to imply it. It was just the only connection I could see. My real suspicion about your certainty (which I do have) is that you have other reasons to want Renee out of the picture. :) And I wouldn't have called her interest in Xander uncanny. She has the hots for the guy. I'd have thought you'd think that lots of girls would be interested in Xander.

Your other points, however, are worth pondering. We did see her as the message-runner, though I didn't see any evidence that she was volunteering for the role. But my first reaction, pending more argument from you, is that she's been drawn and presented as sincere, and nice. In other words, I like her. So I'd be bummed if you were right. And I'd like to see more 'tells' -- i.e. some evidence of behavior that seems off -- if this is really what is going to end up getting revealed.

Since it is clear that we are going to be getting more spotlight on Satsu, I'd say there's room there for them to develop her as a credible candidate as a 'mole'.


Back to the Faustian deal thing... scenario. Buffy's "narrow-ass" is responsible for creating the Slayers, so is naturally going to probably be pretty unpopular against families that feel she's taken their daughters and sisters from them. Now there's this guy whose plan is to destroy Buffy, Slayers, and all magic who, if you'll just help him get what he needs, will spare *your* loved one. Your Slayer... daughter, perhaps?

In an issue, and arc, that was all about manipulative and broken relationships between daughters and their parents, is it possible we've been introduced to yet another manipulative parent, but one that's trying to save her kid's life?

If your point here is that Renee is an UNWITTING mole, I think I could get behind that. The betrayal theme resonates well there. And if Renee and Xander grow closer, that we get dramatic potential on that front as well. That's a scenario that I could get behind.

KingofCretins
05-12-07, 10:38 PM
You could go any number of ways with the Renee as a mole theory. She could be a fully participating spy, convinced by Twilight that Buffy screwed them all over and needs to be taken out, along with the "mess" she made. She could be a manipulated victim, playing out a sham thinking she has to do keep herself, or her family, or who knows what else safe. Or, she could even be the Manchurian Slayer.

I almost prefer if she's a full-on spy -- makes it that much more insidious that she is trying to win over Xander, Buffy's most unwavering ally.

But, like I said -- I'll take any spy, ANY spy that isn't one of the core Scoobies. A N Y. I mean, bring back Owen to be the Spy. Make Trafalgar the spy. Make Rona or Vi or Kennedy the spy. Bring Kate Locksley over from Angel and make *her* the spy. But if they destroy Willow, Xander, or Dawn on this plot, I'm back to the "eff you Joss" place.

Weredog
05-12-07, 11:19 PM
Um, okay, so I just read it.
And, uh, HOLYMACARONIANDJAHOVAHSWITNESS!!!!

THAT WAS AWESOME

Roden's death is probably the best death ever. And I mean, ever. Ahh... if only we would have seen his boils burst on TV....

And, second, hello Twilight! That guy looks menacing! I'm so glad he's the Big Bad of the season and not a returning villain that some posters have speculated. This guy has some tricks up his sleeves.... sick!

Oh and pretty much scratch and delete my post about the lack of Giles, cause this issue was definitely Faith and Giles as a team -- quite literally. Their last scene together was great (and in that scene Jeanty nailed the drawings of them -- that was Faith and that was Giles.)

FIVE STARS!

Maggie
06-12-07, 12:01 AM
I really don't think you have to worry about the core scoobies. There's no organic development that would hint at such a thing. So not just a betrayal of the fans -- it would be a betrayal of the integrity of the story.

As for Renee, the only scenario I'd be happy with is if her relative is using her for information by leading ordinary conversations in directions that would be interesting to her. Largely it's because of the medium, I think. Renee's drawn as sincere. So if Joss wants to come back later and tell me it was all an act -- well, I didn't have anything to go on but the deliberately misleading drawings of her as sincere. And I'm already frustrated by the limitations of the drawings in terms of trying to discern the emotional nuance that was a strength of the show. It'd just be another disconnect for me. I need to believe that I can get reliable information by looking at the drawings.

vampmogs
06-12-07, 12:13 AM
I really don't think you have to worry about the core scoobies. There's no organic development that would hint at such a thing. So not just a betrayal of the fans -- it would be a betrayal of the integrity of the story.

As for Renee, the only scenario I'd be happy with is if her relative is using her for information by leading ordinary conversations in directions that would be interesting to her. Largely it's because of the medium, I think. Renee's drawn as sincere. So if Joss wants to come back later and tell me it was all an act -- well, I didn't have anything to go on but the deliberately misleading drawings of her as sincere. And I'm already frustrated by the limitations of the drawings in terms of trying to discern the emotional nuance that was a strength of the show. It'd just be another disconnect for me. I need to believe that I can get reliable information by looking at the drawings.

Well of course she is going to be acting sincere, she isn't going to a wear a sign over her head saying "betrayer" is she :p

I actually think logically, having her as the "man on the inside" does make sense. Basically from what King has stated above. We've seen her have an active involvement in the castle's defence system at least in one way, have a close relationship with one of the castle's big guns (Xander) and doesn't seem to have a great relationship with any other slayer in the castle (unlike Buffy's Alpha Team) perhaps indicating she chooses to remain by herself often.

Really it could be anyone, but the way I see it she'd actually probably be the most logical person right now.

Maggie
06-12-07, 12:56 AM
Well of course she is going to be acting sincere, she isn't going to a wear a sign over her head saying "betrayer" is she :p

I actually think logically, having her as the "man on the inside" does make sense. Basically from what King has stated above. We've seen her have an active involvement in the castle's defence system at least in one way, have a close relationship with one of the castle's big guns (Xander) and doesn't seem to have a great relationship with any other slayer in the castle (unlike Buffy's Alpha Team) perhaps indicating she chooses to remain by herself often.

Really it could be anyone, but the way I see it she'd actually probably be the most logical person right now.

Work with me on this, OK. I'm new to the medium. Are we supposed to learn *anything* by looking at the drawings? Especially when it comes to new characters. Are we to be able to get a sense of the person *at all* based on what we see? I'd have thought that the medium relies on short-hand to communicate important information.

So here's what I saw: Seemed to me that our first introduction was meant to tell us that she's in a mutually flirtatious relationship with Xander. Next, her fellow slayers have noticed and are teasing her about it (which makes me puzzled at your claim that she doesn't seem to have a great relationship with other slayers). Next, we see her getting stabbed, which seems to be meant to make us concerned about her. Next, we see her looking genuinely cast down about having 'failed' in her duties. In that scene, we also seem to see a real connection between her and Xander.

All of this looks straight-up real. Feel free to call my attention to any panel that in retrospect looks dodgy. Cause if there's NOTHING like that -- and she's really this super-spy, well -- how am I supposed to trust in the introduction of any new character? There is so little to work with in terms of getting us a feeling that we 'know' somebody. If it turns out that even those cues are suspect -- then I can't learn anything about a character by looking at the drawing. If this were all acted out, we wouldn't have the same problem. We wouldn't being relying so much on a few details to get a sense of a person. Not sure if I'm expressing the problem here -- but basically Renee is the one character that feels real to me. If she's a lie, then I'm just that much more disconnected from all the other characters, who aren't yet 'real' to me -- cause I can't trust the even less information I have about them, either.

Shrugs. It would just be one more randomness. Like Satsu as the kisser. The comics start to feel more like headline news than an actual story. So I'm hoping that won't happen.

I'd rather have it be mohawk girl, the one who's all about the guns. Or maybe Satsu -- which would give us a better way of tying the kiss of true love deal into the larger arc. But we'll find out in good time.

vampmogs
06-12-07, 01:10 AM
Work with me on this, OK. I'm new to the medium. Are we supposed to learn *anything* by looking at the drawings? Especially when it comes to new characters. Are we to be able to get a sense of the person *at all* based on what we see? I'd have thought that the medium relies on short-hand to communicate important information.

I'm new to the medium to. Well I guess it depends, well at least that is my take on it anyway. I stated a few pages up that I think Jeanty intentionally made Faith look younger, more like a child, in her panels with the Mayor to symbolise what is really going on there- basically a girl looking up wanting to be love, her father's little child. However, if Renee is trying to keep herself a secret then I don't see why we'd see anything but how she wants others to see her- which basically is this girl we've come to know. If there is anything sinister underneath that, well who knows.


So here's what I saw: Seemed to me that our first introduction was meant to tell us that she's in a mutually flirtatious relationship with Xander.

Which can be taken in a number of ways. Either she really does feel something for Xander and is 100% good, really feels something for Xander but is working against Buffy, or is just acting to get close to someone high up in the chain of command.


Next, her fellow slayers have noticed and are teasing her about it (which makes me puzzled at your claim that she doesn't seem to have a great relationship with other slayers).

Think about it though. She is wounded, lying on the stretcher alone, whilst all the slayers around her in the background seem to be taking care of eachother and talking. Screams loner to me. Her talk with the other slayer was one pretty much forced on them by routine, they had to be together guarding because it was their job. I noticed plenty of obvious crushes people had in highschool though I wasn't close to any of them.


Next, we see her getting stabbed, which seems to be meant to make us concerned about her. Next, we see her looking genuinely cast down about having 'failed' in her duties. In that scene, we also seem to see a real connection between her and Xander.

Well yeah. If Joss wants us to get fully invested in the man on the inside, wouldn't he try and connect us with them emotionally to make the sting all the more worse? He wouldn't do it to a character we couldn't give a shite about.


All of this looks straight-up real. Feel free to call my attention to any panel that in retrospect looks dodgy.

Why would it look dodgy? If Renee really was a double agent or whatever you choose to call her, everything we see of her is going to be what she wants us to see.


Cause if there's NOTHING like that -- and she's really this super-spy, well -- how am I supposed to trust in the introduction of any new character?

The same way you would a new character on the TV. Take Tara for example, she just comes into the show and we are supposed to trust her, even when we saw little snippets later on that she is hiding something. Or even yet, a better example would be the woman under Holtz command in Ats. She goes to Angel and Wes talking about her son being taken by a vamp and we are supposed to trust her, we connect with her, she whos real emotion- it turns out she is actually a double working for Holtz. Though in this case Whedon wants to keep the mystery going a bit longer.


I'd rather have it be mohawk girl, the one who's all about the guns. Or maybe Satsu -- which would give us a better way of tying the kiss of true love deal into the larger arc. But we'll find out in good time.

Satsu could work as well. But Mohawk girl isn't with Buffy in the BHC so I doubt she could be a suspect.

KingofCretins
06-12-07, 01:30 AM
Work with me on this, OK. I'm new to the medium. Are we supposed to learn *anything* by looking at the drawings? Especially when it comes to new characters. Are we to be able to get a sense of the person *at all* based on what we see? I'd have thought that the medium relies on short-hand to communicate important information.

You should be able to take the same thing from the pencil and color in a comic that you would take from an actor's performance on television, just with far fewer images.

You seem to have summed up Renee's promise as a character for whom we can have a nice emotional involvement very well, for the first nine issues.


Shrugs. It would just be one more randomness. Like Satsu as the kisser. The comics start to feel more like headline news than an actual story. So I'm hoping that won't happen

Here's the difference. The "randomness" about Satsu, the complaints, come from what we see *after* we know the game. We know someone in the room kisses Buffy and that they are in love with her. The "randomness" problem comes from debate over whether it was fair to, knowing these rules, guess that she was in the room at all. This is kinda the same as with Spike in Season 6 -- we know the game, that he is going to get "turned back into what he was", and it feels off because they don't deal fairly with us after that.

In this case, we've only just now been given the rules -- going forward, we know to watch for signs that someone's spying from the inside. *Now* is when they should be expected to start giving us reasons to wonder about the characters that we should be wondering about (I can not reiterate enough that this should not, in any way, be a subplot that impugns the loyalty of Willow, Xander, or Dawn). Prior to that, though, they are actually kind of obligated to make us feel good about these new characters from whom the spy should be drawn.

Maggie
06-12-07, 01:30 AM
I get that we're seeing what Xander would be seeing. Bear with me, cause I'm having a hard time articulating my feeling about this...

This is *my* first time in getting to know a comic book character from scratch. This is the *first* one that seemed 'real' to me. If she's a lie, I just won't feel like I can trust what I see with new characters. But also, in general, I don't like 'reveals' where someone who seemed 100% trustworthy is shown to be a lying skank. I want there to be some tell, something, in retrospect, that makes me say -- yeah, I should have noticed that. It was a bit dodgy. So maybe part of this is my general dislike for the idea of 'plot twists' where we can't go back and see in hindsight that what looked like 'a' really was 'b'. So far there's NOTHING I can point to in 9 issues that makes me think "gee, if Renee turns out to be the mole, there was that weird detail that was a bit dodgy, so it actually makes sense."

Substantive point of disagreement: Renee is lying alone in the hospital because she's feeling especially mopey about failing in her duty. That's why Xander has to come and encourage her. And, again, if that's NOT what's going on -- I'm just not figuring out how the medium works.

Phoenix
06-12-07, 02:01 AM
Wow this issue was amazing. No Future For You would definately be in the top 10 Buffy episodes for me, no doubt about it. I was first in my comic shop today and first to get this issue, I felt so yay ^_^

But also embarrassed, because while reading it on the bus home the person next to me kept giving me weird looks whenever i gasped or something. Kinda funny, especially when i was forcing myself not to cry, that was when Faith kicked Gigi into the axe by accident, and she was all crying.. my gosh, it was so intense.

I love how Faith is going to work with Giles and be all "social worker" like with other slayers. It's really amazing for Faith to do that, and she will be amazing at it im sure, she can help so much :)

And I hope to God the spy is NOT Xander, coz then I will be mighty pissed. I agree that it could be anyone but the scoobies, anyone at all. If one of them were to be the spy.. it would pretty much ruin it all for me I think.

But yeah, amazing issue. Im still kinda in awe about it, Faith is just such an amazing character. Oh yeah, and a mention should definately go to Jo Chen on the cover art, it symbolises beautifully. :)

KingofCretins
06-12-07, 02:12 AM
This is *my* first time in getting to know a comic book character from scratch. This is the *first* one that seemed 'real' to me. If she's a lie, I just won't feel like I can trust what I see with new characters. But also, in general, I don't like 'reveals' where someone who seemed 100% trustworthy is shown to be a lying skank. I want there to be some tell, something, in retrospect, that makes me say -- yeah, I should have noticed that. It was a bit dodgy. So maybe part of this is my general dislike for the idea of 'plot twists' where we can't go back and see in hindsight that what looked like 'a' really was 'b'. So far there's NOTHING I can point to in 9 issues that makes me think "gee, if Renee turns out to be the mole, there was that weird detail that was a bit dodgy, so it actually makes sense."

They haven't done anything yet that wouldn't be done pretty much the same way in any other medium, is what's puzzling me about your reaction. You can't have someone turn out to be a spy without you first starting to trust them or it won't have any emotional impact.


Substantive point of disagreement: Renee is lying alone in the hospital because she's feeling especially mopey about failing in her duty. That's why Xander has to come and encourage her. And, again, if that's NOT what's going on -- I'm just not figuring out how the medium works.

This begs a sincere and non-judgmental question -- are you not much for spy movies and stuff? I mean, the preeminent cliche of female spies is to cozy up to a man she needs information from. When it's a nice guy like Xander, the way to cozy up to him is to appeal to his protective nature -- in this case, Renee making herself looking vulnerable and needy for him is about the best "in" there is if she wanted to work him.

We've even seen this in Buffy before... 3.17 "Enemies", when Faith wants to seduce Angel and take his soul, she plays the emotionally vulnerable girl who needs protected and cared for.


Kinda funny, especially when i was forcing myself not to cry, that was when Faith kicked Gigi into the axe by accident, and she was all crying.. my gosh, it was so intense.

I had to stop during the transcript of that scene a couple times just to let myself get back under control :( Genevieve never had a chance. And Faith demanding that Roden heal her... man, it's still getting to me.

modifiedblind
06-12-07, 02:55 AM
correct me if i'm wrong but we were to make the connection that Xander is the one who kissed Buffy right? or am I off base?

KingofCretins
06-12-07, 02:59 AM
While that was a reasonable reading at the time, both Joss and Scott Allie have confirmed since that it was actually Satsu that kissed Buffy.

Since that means that Satsu is in love with Buffy, I take her off the list of possible spies. Where the core Scoobies belong :)

Weredog
06-12-07, 03:29 AM
I love how Faith is going to work with Giles and be all "social worker" like with other slayers. It's really amazing for Faith to do that, and she will be amazing at it im sure, she can help so much :)

Me too. Although I'm upset that Giles and Buffy aren't on good terms (which I'm sure will be resolved eventually,) it's great to see Giles as the anti-Mayor. If you pay think about it, the two are very similar for Faith: boss, fatherly, and, uh, makes her wear a dress. The only difference though is that Giles is leading Faith down the right path, which is about damn time for Faith to have someone do that for her.

Nostalgia
06-12-07, 03:31 AM
Wow..

If this wasn't as close to feeling the same emotions as the television show, I don't know what is..

This entire episode has been incredible.. and with a finish like that.. has easily gained a status on my top 25 Buffy episodes of all time.


I mean, where do we start...

How about...

YES!!!:err: :2party:

I knew Giles and Buffy were still at opposite ends!!

Eh.. wait a minute.. this is terrible! :cutecry:

Not that it wasn't evident before, but I knew it was even deeper than the "recon" (whatever you want to call it) mission that he put Faith to.. It's evident now that Buffy and Giles are completely at different opinions.. and I have no idea why. It hurts me really badly.. her face.. I can completely see Sarah acting out that in real life. I absolutely adored it and wanted to hold her as she said

8.03 No Future For You
Buffy: What other kind is there?

It's now shown that Buffy is not the problem.. and it's Giles that is the one who cannot seem to strike up their friendship again. I don't know what it is about him.. but I haven't been able to enjoy him ever since his wild remarks in "Empty Places." What could have possibly kept him at bitter terms still? Is there something we're not knowing about?

Kings, great job on the father-daughter theme.. it's clearly shown throughout the story. After all is said and done, I think they wanted us to feel bad for Gigi.. considering she was mislead.. but honestly I don't know if I can. Disrespting the entire slayer line and her entire arrogance made me almost happy to see her thrown into the axe.. not that I like to see any characters who are even slightly innocent die.. but I'm not gonna fall for the trick here.. Gigi clearly was mislead, but no human is incapable of realizing the difference between right and wrong. Unlike Faith, she's had a great life. Whether Ronen was using her or not, she still had that coming to her.

As for the one on the inside.. I can't possibly think it would be Willow or Xander.. that wouldn't make any sense once so ever. After 7 years of friendship, there would be no point. I tend to agree with Maggie here.. I think the fact that we saw her get injured and wounded was clear evidence that she isn't their man inside.. plus you know.. she's not a man. Which leaves three people left:

Andrew
Giles
and : sigh :...

Xander.

Xander is completely out of the question. I'd be very very surprised if it was Andrew as well... but would tie up things neatly with his appearance in Angel.. and his lying skills as well.. Though after his "revalation" as I will call it in last season.. I can't imagine how he could possibly turn dark again.. OR how he'd even have ties with people like the government/Twilight. I mean.. I don't know WHO this guy is.. but that book seems to be ancient. I am so curious to what it reads.. maybe another prophecy as Ronen seemed to hint to?

My best bet is Giles.. he's playing dark undercover guy.. yet he's asking demons what the symbol means?

Second thought.. it probably is a girl. Whoever it is.. it's going to be a surprise.. unless it's not a key character. We've seen innocence played out by even Satsu (admitting she's not good enough for this job).. I am completely out of answers.

What I was surprised about is that NO one has mentioned Giles.. though I'd have to say he's on the outside in this situation. Though I do question what exactly he is trying to do with Faith.. Does this mean we're going to see less Giles... or does this mean we're going to see more Faith? What kind of duo would they make together? It has left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Some other comments:

-Awesome death for Ronen.. seeing his head completely explode.. that's almost just as brutal as Caleb death.. something I wish we got to see.

-Well.. I guess I was wrong.. the new big bad is new.. and Twilight might be the coolest villian to enter the Buffyverse since Angelus. The First was cool.. but having a traditional Buffy vs the BAD GUY season just seems like the perfect way to start the new season. Man.. how intimidating he is?!! His plan was perfect as well... and I'm sure he's very happy with knowing that Buffy and Giles are completely out of touch. It's cool to see such a calm and collective villian.. it's been a while since we've seen someone so well thought out.

Overall.. 5 out of 5.. Amazing episode.. and is the first season 8 episode to reach into my top 25.

ThePoet's<3
06-12-07, 05:10 AM
What an excellent wrap up to the Faith arc!! Still leaves a tad of animosity between Faith and Buffy and also introduces the new schism between Giles and Buffy!

Felt terrible that Lady G's death ultimately came at Faith's hand but appreciated Brian not having Faith out-right kill the girl.

And a Faith/Giles Team?!? AWESOME!!! Who would EVER thought the two of them would team up?? And Faith being the one to initiate the idea - growth of the character.

I still think there is a mole back at Slayer Central. And with the wonderful discussion regarding the "innocence" of Renee - perfect "mole-like" behavior! LOL!

This new Big Bad... I'm not convinced it's not someone we know...

So far - my favorite of Season 8 has been this story arc. I loved seeing Faith again and this team of she and Giles - delicious!

vampmogs
06-12-07, 08:30 AM
While that was a reasonable reading at the time, both Joss and Scott Allie have confirmed since that it was actually Satsu that kissed Buffy.

Since that means that Satsu is in love with Buffy, I take her off the list of possible spies. Where the core Scoobies belong :)

I'm not sure I'd rule it out though. I think it'd be interesting if Satsu really was the spy but over time whilst spying on Buffy she grew to love her, or if Renee, that she over time actually really started to care about Xander. It happened in 'Alias' when Alison took the guise of Francy to spy on Sidney and Will but actually developed genuine feelings for Will in the process. I think it'd make it very interesting.

Wolfie Gilmore
06-12-07, 10:29 AM
Can I just say, we did this whole spy thing before it was the new cool thing (in our season 8). :) And a Giles betrayal was on the cards but never got that far...maybe we should post the outline sometime, would be interesting to compare!

Can't wait to read this, is in the shops in the UK today I believe...

vampmogs
06-12-07, 10:32 AM
Unlike Faith, she's had a great life. Whether Ronen was using her or not, she still had that coming to her.

I'll be the first to agree with you that despite Roden's influence, I don't think Gigi was particularly a nice person. However, I'd just like to point out she hasn't had such a great life. Just because she is wealthy doesn't mean she has had it easy, her "just another pedo" like makes it clear she's be subjected to all kinds of perverse and horrible things by "pervy tutors" from a very young age. Which isn’t particularly great for anyone no matter how rich they were. After all, money doesn’t make sexual assault by paedophiles any less emotionally scarring now does it?

sueworld
06-12-07, 10:38 AM
Since that means that Satsu is in love with Buffy, I take her off the list of possible spies. Where the core Scoobies belong

Oh god that means you should add her to the top of the list.

In 'old fashioned' drama terms It makes her the perfect candidate for one of those type of emotional 'pot boilers' that drama loves so well. The whole 'oh lord she was in love with her, and yet betrayed her thing. All well trodden 'classics' including the 'Judas kiss' she gave Buffy right from the start.

vampmogs
06-12-07, 10:44 AM
Oh god that means you should add her to the top of the list.

In 'old fashioned' drama terms It makes her the perfect candidate for one of those type of emotional 'pot boilers' that drama loves so well. The whole 'oh lord she was in love with her, and yet betrayed her thing. All well trodden 'classics' including the 'Judas kiss' she gave Buffy right from the start.

Yeah have to agree with Sue here. Though not sure if we have to use spoiler tags? Do we? Mods?

Making the inside man someone who has a personal relationship with the Scoobies makes the whole thing more interesting. The only thing that screws it up being Xander, Willow or Dawn is that we have all this history with their characters pretty much demonstrating how wildly OOC it'd be for them to betray Buffy. But Satsu, we don't. So we could ask if she fell in love after spying on Buffy, perhaps not even realising it until she had to kiss her in 'The Long Way Home.'

Wolfie Gilmore
06-12-07, 10:47 AM
I guess Xander as a traitor is a possibility, but it conflicts with one of the interviews Vaughan did. Either he was purposefully being misleading or he's not in the loop in regards to the season arc.

Brian K. Vaughan
IF I HAD TO WRITE THE FINAL BUFFY STORY, I WOULD... I’m f---ing ready to write it tomorrow, are you kidding? I always thought it would be kind of poignant to just have Buffy and [her friend] Xander be the last two people left, and have them reminisce about high school. The point being that, while you’re going through high school, it seems like hell, but once you’re old you begin looking at high school like it used to be paradise. So maybe that’s a Buffy reveal: When Xander asks Buffy what heaven was like, she says, “Like high school, just with you and my friends.” That’s lovely, right? Like all of my stories, it’s two old people talking. [Laughs]




That's a very interesting presentation of old age and the way we whitewash things (not we as in I'm in old age but...you know. Closer than Buffy ;)). So, when you're in high school, it's hell. When you're old, your picture of high school becomes...heaven!

Wolfie Gilmore
06-12-07, 11:02 AM
So, still haven't read the comic but can't resist speculating about who might be a spy...I think Renee is a reasonable guess. As people have said, they've made us care about her, so it MATTERS if she is. I still don't really care about Satsu, because we've had less of her, so in a way, I'd be less satisfied with her (though the "in love with Buffy while spying on her" thing could be interesting, provided they don't out Satsu as the spy until we've had more of a chance to know her...perhaps after her mission with Buffy in the later issue? Which would make it all the more poignant, if Buffy singles her out and then she betrays her...though, perhaps she'd choose not to? It could also provide some REALLY interesting parallels with Faith/Gigi. And not just about the lesbianism. But, if they want a bathtub scene...I will obviously raise serious feminist objections. Yup. :).

If it was Andrew...hmm, well, he's not really with the Scoobies enough for that to work for me...also, the scoobies wouldn't feel so betrayed I reckon, more "oh dear, I can't believe we trusted that gimp".

My bets are on a new slayer...and since Renee's the only one we know well enough, seems likely. Unless we get to know Satsu better as I said. The idea of it being Willow or XAnder just seems ridiculous. I'd have believed it would be Giles but since him and Buffy have fallen out over something else that would lose its impact.

Is there anyone else who's an option? Giant Dawn, worst spy EVER??

vampmogs
06-12-07, 11:13 AM
Is there anyone else who's an option? Giant Dawn, worst spy EVER??

Haha! But you know I was actually thinking about Dawn today. What if we found out the reason she is being so secretive about the whole giant thing is because maybe she did a spell that went wrong that'd put her in a bad way with Buffy and the others? I have nothing solid to back this up really, just some speculation on my part based loosley on what we know about Dawn. But...

What if Dawn somehow tried to do a spell to reverse the activation of all slayers after feeling alone by Buffy and all her new "sisters" as Buffy calls it. We know she feels incredibly isolated, we know she is jealous of how much attention Buffy gives the new slayers. What if the spell backfired somehow and made her big, made her noticed, exactly like she wanted.

Wolfie Gilmore
06-12-07, 11:16 AM
Haha! But you know I was actually thinking about Dawn today. What if we found out the reason she is being so secretive about the whole giant thing is because maybe she did a spell that went wrong that'd put her in a bad way with Buffy and the others? I have nothing solid to back this up really, just some speculation on my part based loosley on what we know about Dawn. But...

What if Dawn somehow tried to do a spell to reverse the activation of all slayers after feeling alone by Buffy and all her new "sisters" as Buffy calls it. We know she feels incredibly isolated, we know she is jealous of how much attention Buffy gives the new slayers. What if the spell backfired somehow and made her big, made her noticed, exactly like she wanted.

Aww, poor Dawnie. I don't think she'd do anything like that nowadays (though she totally would when she was younger). But I am itching to find out the story behind the spell...and to get her shrunk down so she can take part in the Scooby day to day stuff. Also, I'm rather hoping that her giantness will tie into something other than her sleeping with a thricewise...something possibly even more embarassing. ;)

Any other options for the spy?

vampmogs
06-12-07, 11:29 AM
Aww, poor Dawnie. I don't think she'd do anything like that nowadays (though she totally would when she was younger). But I am itching to find out the story behind the spell...and to get her shrunk down so she can take part in the Scooby day to day stuff. Also, I'm rather hoping that her giantness will tie into something other than her sleeping with a thricewise...something possibly even more embarassing. ;)

Any other options for the spy?

Will Joss says the giant part of her involves a big story arc for the character so I expect great things :)

More on the spy... hmmm...

I still don't think it'd make sense whatsoever to be Xander. I just couldn't wrap my head around that idea. The only reason I haven't completely ruled it out is because of the Jeanty interview that came out the other day. When he was talking about something happening which he told Joss, not as a collegue but as a fan "he couldn't do" in which Joss replied, "yes I can and you're going to see how." That worries me a little now. Having Xander betraying Buffy would be the exact kind of thing that'd get such shock out of Jeanty. Jeanty also added that things that may seem bad when they happen will seem good later on... hmmm... not sure what to make of any of this but it scares me a little!

KingofCretins
06-12-07, 01:50 PM
I honestly think Joss would find he's sorely mistaken to think he could pull it off, if that's what Georges' comment referred to, the idea that a scooby could be a spy. He could put it on paper, but not make it work... or, at least, couldn't make it work without openly insulting and rejecting entire chunks of the fanbase.

That's what's so messed up about it, though, is that Georges' comment is this perfect pink elephant attack on the senses -- it has you looking into Room 101 and seeing your worst fears. And, it's working, since I'm honestly not sure I'll even enjoy reading this book until we know what this traitor thing is about.

I remember most of us thought this 'true love's kiss' thing would be an ongoing mystery over several issues, and instead we basically got our answer in the next issue. I really, really hope we get the same thing out of this spy angle. If Joss decides to play it out as a mystery over the next, say, 10 issues... well, that means nearly a full calender year of all my Buffy-related thoughts being drenched in anxiety that I'm not going to be allowed to like my favorite character anymore :(

vampmogs
06-12-07, 02:18 PM
I honestly think Joss would find he's sorely mistaken to think he could pull it off, if that's what Georges' comment referred to, the idea that a scooby could be a spy. He could put it on paper, but not make it work... or, at least, couldn't make it work without openly insulting and rejecting entire chunks of the fanbase.

That's what's so messed up about it, though, is that Georges' comment is this perfect pink elephant attack on the senses -- it has you looking into Room 101 and seeing your worst fears. And, it's working, since I'm honestly not sure I'll even enjoy reading this book until we know what this traitor thing is about.

I remember most of us thought this 'true love's kiss' thing would be an ongoing mystery over several issues, and instead we basically got our answer in the next issue. I really, really hope we get the same thing out of this spy angle. If Joss decides to play it out as a mystery over the next, say, 10 issues... well, that means nearly a full calender year of all my Buffy-related thoughts being drenched in anxiety that I'm not going to be allowed to like my favorite character anymore :(

It is a little concerning. However, I suspect that now it has been revealed their is a mole Joss will start dropping hints on who it may be, if not coming out and telling us straight away. It may be we learn the mole as early as 8.11 as that is when Buffy and Twilight comes face to face.

Logically it doesn't make sense for it to be Xander given everything we know about him and what we've seen so far of him in season 8. So I'm going to hope for the best it is neither Xander, Willow or Dawn.

Kold
06-12-07, 02:18 PM
That was really, really good. Like... that whole arc was really, really, really good. I'm amazed. The Faith voice was spot on, and it was the real gritty Faith stuff that we haven't had for a bloody long time. Made me remember the days in the old school yard (puns aren't funny), and all, and it has been truly terrific.

Slayer punch-up. Gigi really was a fascinating and gripping character. That utter betrayal, lying to someone whose self-confidence can't take such a betrayal, when the girl is so similar to Faith. The feeling of superiority, the power, which to Faith came only from her strength and looks, to Gigi came from her sovereign power long before she got her Slayer power. That's what she falls back on when she is dangerously hurt, calling Faith American trash not worthy of being killed by a Slayer, and is as fake and frankly unhelpful as it always was to Faith, as we saw in "Faith, Hope and Trick", "Consequences" and "Five by Five".

And Faith could see that. Faith has hoped for so long that she hasn't been acting in vain, that she was worth redemption and it would stick, and that confidence was shattered by Buffy in the previous issue. Now to kill Gigi... she further unwound everything she had convinced herself of, all the empowerment that Angel had given her. Poor Gigi, and poor Faith.

The further flashback was amazing. Last issue's flashback dealt with Buffy, because the issue was about Buffy and Faith's volatile relationship, and boy did it ignite. Well, this one's about an equally dangerous relationship for Faith, her father figures... the ones who make her kill, and try to tell her she's in the right. I haven't read back on this thread (sorry for repeating people's thoughts!) but I caught a snippet a couple pages back about them putting her in dresses... it's exactly the same as the Shadowmen keeping the First Slayer, and Buffy, in chains. Putting her somewhere neat and tidy, keeping her the woman, and having her do the dirty work. But the Wilkins voice was spot on. For a snake, as Faith called him, he could truly care. Not all of that could have been manipulation, and given Faith's alternatives back so long ago, who wouldn't have gone for that loving voice? And in the end, of course, Giles has the same redeeming quality for Faith that Wilkins had... he's not only looking to use her. There is something else there, regardless of whether or not she is used.

Buffy, as ever, is the queen of misunderstanding. And it always hits her hard, because it's always about her, and it's always a deep wound. Which is understandable. She can't honestly be faulted for that, because Giles once again tried to take responsibility from Buffy by keeping her in the dark about the dangers to her, and Buffy is meant to be in charge. Giles put her in "the dress" just as much as he did Faith, except that in Buffy's case, he didn't repent when it was over. He didn't say "we'll be equals, and you'll fulfill your mission". He kept her in the dark.

And of course the further parallel between Gigi and the chronically uncaring Roden. And of course the cryptic Twilight dude, giving such import to sweet Slayer on Slayer action (bad tub reference). All containing of the Good.
Also... how awesome was Giles' spell. Trust Giles to make somebody explode.

Koos
06-12-07, 02:22 PM
I still don't think it'd make sense whatsoever to be Xander.

I can't believe it could be Xander either, but you have to remember that according to canon, Xander has been under the influence of Dracula. Now if Dracula is involved in the Twilight than I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.

Considering that Jeanty has said it now and considering that the next arc is about Xander involving vampires with powers with Drew Goddard (who wrote the above mentioned Xander/Dracula thing) as it's writer I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.

My first guess is that it's Renee :)

vampmogs
06-12-07, 02:30 PM
I can't believe it could be Xander either, but you have to remember that according to canon, Xander has been under the influence of Dracula. Now if Dracula is involved in the Twilight than I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.

I'm not sure Drac would be really that involved with Twilight, unless he is being seriously played like Roden was. Twilight wants to bring an end to magic, Drac loves all that 'showy gypsey stuff.' But it is possible like Roden, he is merely a disposable chess peice in Twilight's ultimate plan. Depends on how cunning he turns out to be, because despite Drac's lameness I don't think he'd be so easy to fool.


Considering that Jeanty has said it now and considering that the next arc is about Xander involving vampires with powers with Drew Goddard (who wrote the above mentioned Xander/Dracula thing) as it's writer I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.

You're right nothing is impossible, but I'd still see it as very unlikely.


My first guess is that it's Renee :)

Me too. Now that I'm thinking about all the possibilities with her character being a mole I'm really starting to like the idea. Hope we aren't wrong :)

Koos
06-12-07, 02:33 PM
Me too. Now that I'm thinking about all the possibilities with her character being a mole I'm really starting to like the idea. Hope we aren't wrong :)

Would his love for Renee be enough to have him betray Buffy?

Wolfie Gilmore
06-12-07, 02:34 PM
...calling Faith American trash not worthy of being killed by a Slayer...

Haven't read the issue yet, though it sounds amazing...but this bit (in the promo) was just a wee bit ridiculous. But I'm fanwanking it as Gigi not being typical of her class...she's an exaggerated version of it, who's never had any real social experience and probably not strayed far from home. Though you'd think if you were in the world enough to listen to Amy Winehouse (ok, not exactly in with the in crowd in, but presumably you turn the radio on every now and then) you might have slightly more idea of the real world, at least in terms of cultural prejudices?

But, small quibble. Mostly irriated because I haven't got my copy yet!

KingofCretins
06-12-07, 02:42 PM
Would his love for Renee be enough to have him betray Buffy?

And as soon as you ask the question, you know the answer.

It's worth pointing out that the "Tales of..." series have a gloss of canon provided by the names associated with them, but do not have anything like the official sanction as definitive canon that Season 8 does. Joss is not bound to adhere to them. In fact, the idea of Xander as long term prisoner of Dracula not only sounds out of character for Buffy to allow, but also inconsistent with his role at the BHC.

Koos
06-12-07, 02:51 PM
And as soon as you ask the question, you know the answer.

Just speculating, nothing more.




It's worth pointing out that the "Tales of..." series have a gloss of canon provided by the names associated with them, but do not have anything like the official sanction as definitive canon that Season 8 does. Joss is not bound to adhere to them. In fact, the idea of Xander as long term prisoner of Dracula not only sounds out of character for Buffy to allow, but also inconsistent with his role at the BHC.

From an interview with Scot

http://www.stakesandsalvation.com/20...ott-allie.html

Will Xander’s stint as Dracula’s slave from Tales of the Vampires be followed up on in Season Eight?

Scottie A: Hotcha.

Maggie
06-12-07, 04:14 PM
Interesting discussion, and lots of good points. This is my first time through as a fan of something as it unfolds, so all the speculating is interesting (though frustrating, cause, you know, we really don't know). Anyway, here are a few thoughts:

1. If the mole is Satsu, we no longer have any reason to believe she's really in love with Buffy, because she's in on the plot with Amy, and there's no reason to believe the spell was really as advertized. What I like about this move is that it could set us up to do something useful with a plot point I've viewed thus far as a pointless distraction. (Why would Amy bother with a 'kiss of true love' spell? Well, it might provide a way for Satsu's 'feelings' eventually to become known -- and that might in turn serve their purposes in some way). That Satsu is going to be on issue covers in the future is also useful in this regard.

2. I agree with all the points that have been raised in favor of Renee as the mole. Though I'd still rather have her be the unwitting spy, rather than view her as consciously manipulating Xander. Poor Xander deserves to have someone just crush on him. And BTW, when I'm crushing on a guy, I totally get interested in whatever geeky thing he's into -- and it's genuine. So her interest in geeky stuff just doesn't read as forced to me at all.

3. I understand why it would be so terribly implausible to have Xander be the guy. The only reason I'm going to say what I'm going to say next is because of the Jeanty interview. Anyway, If we go back to the very, very first pages of B8, we have Buffy say "I've still got my watcher.", which segues to Xander, who is playing a watcher-like role for Buffy. Xander seems to have displaced Giles. Well, in this issue, Giles seems to have betrayed Buffy. Buffy certainly takes it that way -- and Buffy and Giles are very much on the outs. But we also see that Giles is being straight-up with Faith, so whatever is going on between him and Buffy it seems unlikely that it's some kind of deep betrayal of her whole mission. We also are told that there is someone on the inside who might well be betraying the whole mission. If Giles gives way to Xander is the motif, then it could be repeating here. It's a classic reveal of big bads -- the one who we think it is moves out of the picture to reveal the real one. Giles' betrayal is mild compared to the betrayal of Buffy's new 'watcher'. It'd be a Joss-like structuring of things.

On DH, Chris pointed out that we get POV from Xander and this seems to rule out him as the mole. But actually, the POV is quite limited and could be read in various ways. He was in construction, he has this new gig because "when duty calls you don't exactly get to screen". And I think we are free to ask which duty called, and why he didn't get to screen.

I'm not advocating #3. But I did want to say that there are at least a few reasons for thinking that we can't dismiss it as easily as King and others understandably would like to.

KingofCretins
06-12-07, 04:25 PM
No, honestly, the more I've thought about it, the more obvious that Xander-as-mole would be high order badfic. Just atrocious.

He is the one who told Buffy that she is his hero.

He is the one who values friendship and the ties between the people he loves so much that he demanded that Willow end the world only if she starts with him.

He's the one who said the only thing he hoped was that he'd be able to be at Buffy's side at the end.

He's the one who taught Dawn to see their place in the whitehat life as 'extraordinary'.

There is *no possible way* to construct a believable basis for Xander to betray the characteristic that has always defined his very existence without having to resort to some kind of tell-don't-show BS reason that happened in the year and a half we weren't allowed to see. It would be like stamping a big AU disclaimer at the front of Season 8 that says "set a year and a half after "Chosen", canon through Season 7, except that Xander has always secretly resented Buffy and the supernatural, and everything you think motivated him before now was a lie". It would be... badfic. Just can't think of anything else to call it.

Maggie
06-12-07, 04:29 PM
Well, now you understand why some people aren't willing to concede canonical status to the comics ex ante. :)

I agree that it seems implausible now, for all the reasons you give. I'm just observing that structurally, there are moves early in the text which would be consistent with this denouement. It's very much in keeping with the way Joss tells his stories. I don't particularly like the idea of Xander as mole. I sure as heck don't see how it could be made plausible. But just going off the structure, and the interview comment, I can't sit here and tell you that it's for sure not going to happen. I think it's possible. Sorry.

KingofCretins
06-12-07, 04:34 PM
That it's canon isn't up to me or anyone else. If he does something that screams "lousy writing" like a Xander betrayal, though, I'll call it what it is.

And, as far as I'm concerned, it would be the same as if Joss had said to me "yeah, you're really not the sort I want to have enjoying my work, maybe you should just move along." Since I'd no longer really feel invited into the Buffyverse canon, I would have to think pretty long and hard about walking away from it.

I mean, seriously, aren't their folks out there who, at the very least, plan to use various heroes of fiction, such as the Scoobies as role-models for their children someday? We had a thread (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=986), even, on this board about whether it's weird or reasonable to name your kids after the Scoobies. Joss turning one of them, betraying *us* by having one of them betray the others, he'd basically be calling us all idiots for investing in them in the first place, wouldn't he?

Wolfie Gilmore
06-12-07, 04:41 PM
I wouldn't see Xander being the mole as a betrayal of the fans if it was done well. But, from where I'm sitting (late for a meeting and yet, posting...oops!) I can't see any way that could be done well. But...you never know. However, still don't think it's likely!

Maggie
06-12-07, 04:47 PM
I'm at least as invested in Spike as you are in Xander, as I'm sure you've figured out. And since Spike is, alas, more 'expendable', I think I have more reason to be nervous about his fate than you do to be nervous about Xander's. Anyway, I HAVE had to think about what I would do if Spike gets trashed in some way that undermines the fundamental things I love about him. And I've decided that Joss isn't going to take the series away from me. If something happens in the comic canon that I just can't live with, I will migrate to boards that only talk about the series. And I will continue to admire the story in the series about the Spike that I love. That's not a statement about what's really canon. I don't think that's important. That's just how I'll live with things if my guy gets destroyed in Joss's creative process. In other words, even if Xander did get trashed, I think you should keep the Xander of the series. He means something to you.

That said, I've given this all another 15 minutes of thought, and I think that there are ways for Xander to be the mole and have that turn out to be a very good thing. Spike's story is instructive here. Spike fans thought they were getting a nice and orderly story progressing him toward redemption. The Gift was a really good place for Spike. As was the beginning of season six. For people vested in the story of Spike's redemption, you can understand how unhappy they would have been by the darkening of his character beginning mid-season six. And you can imagine, especially, how devastating the AR would have been to them. It would have felt like ME had completely betrayed the character and his fans. But it turns out that the moment of apparent betrayal of the character turns out to be the point at which Spike's story got inflected into a whole new level of greatness -- propelling him directly towards the unabashedly heroic ending he got in The Chosen.

Xander is being given a new prominence here in the comics. But Joss just isn't interested in the stories of people who are just ducky. For Xander to really be the protagonist there has to be something to make his story compelling. And that something will almost certainly be something that is scarily destabilizing to our view of the character. I don't have Joss's creative imagination. But if Xander is the mole -- it will be for complex reasons that open up room for the character to vault to a new level of depth and greatness. Speaking as a fan who has been there and done that, I can tell you that it is a very anxiety provoking sort of thing to go through. But we Spike fans got paid off very well. So maybe take comfort in that. Cause I really can't see Joss destroying Xander. But I can very well see him make us go through a period of thinking he has.

KingofCretins
06-12-07, 04:53 PM
No more or less of a betrayal than if Han Solo had decided to turn on the Rebels in "Jedi", or if Leia had been revealed to be daddy's little girl all along.

This whole possibility has me so bummed, I'm not even sure how much I'll enjoy the comic until they resolve the identity of the spy. Comic day sounds more like anxiety than anticipation right now :(

Another narrative problem I'd have with it... isn't it a bit of a retread at this point, basically a new spin on the same old "Buffy has all her friends and anchors to the world stripped away from her and has to fight through it all alone" theme? We did it in Season 2. We did it in Season 4, learning the lesson that she needs her friends. We did it in Season 7. I mean, this would be the 4th trip back to this well, and the only thing that would be changing is the bucket.

Maggie
06-12-07, 05:22 PM
Funny for me to take the 'trust Joss' line -- but let me take it quite strongly. Trust him on this. Trust him to take you places you don't want to go. And trust him to make you see why his way turned out to be better. At this point, there continue to be superficialities and 'smoothing overs' between Buffy and her friends. My guess is that whatever Joss does, it will be in service of bringing them closer to the truth about who they are, and therefore in a better place for a deeper relationship.

Course, he could well choose some route to get you there other than Xander as a mole. But Joss's greatness is exactly in getting us to let go of expectations so that we can be open to new and better possibilities.

Wolfie Gilmore
06-12-07, 05:25 PM
No more or less of a betrayal than if Han Solo had decided to turn on the Rebels in "Jedi", or if Leia had been revealed to be daddy's little girl all along.

But, what if Han looked like he was betraying them but actually had a larger plan? What if Xander is truly being cool secret agent guy? Double agent that is?

Still, I don't think it's likely. But, I can imagine a world in which Xander being the mole didn't mean Xander was the traitor. There's all manner of sneaky he could be pulling off, in theory.


Even less likely is Xander as an out and out traitor. But I don't think that's even in the realm of possibility.

Koos
06-12-07, 05:49 PM
If Xander is the mole than he's either under the very strong influence of something or someone or he has a very good motive. Betraying Buffy for a higher goal is something Xander is capable of. I have only no clue what that motive could be. I also don't think he's under anyone's influence, so for it is a no.

Nostalgia
07-12-07, 12:20 AM
I know you're very loyal to Xander Kings.. but I think you are letting your anxiety about him turning out to be evil take over you. You honestly aren't going to look forward to the comics now, just because there's such a small minute possibility? Nothing's even been hinted to Xander.. so don't count your chickens before they hatch. After his speeches, his love and desire for his friends, and the places he's gone.. the possibility of him being a mole is so far off the deep end that it'd be equal to Joss pulling something out of his ass just to surprise his fans. That would not happen.. Considering how good the last episode was, I doubt that he'd screw up the story's plot with such an abomination to his fan base. I'd see more Willow than Xander.. there's no possible explanation once so ever. As Maggie has pointed, we've seen the show through his eyes.. his POV. How can we rule him as the mole after noticing his loyalty to his friends?

I'd like to read that conversation between Joss and Georges.. because it may not even be about the 'mole.' I'd be more concerned with Xander dying than turning out to be evil.

I don't see any of the core characters turning out to betray Buffy, and I have no fear of it once so ever. You've made it clear Kings that you think it'd be completely implausible.. and yet it's still eating at you? If you don't believe in it then why are you worried?

KingofCretins
07-12-07, 12:30 AM
I simply have what Americans call 'is-sewes' :)

I'll be on edge at least until 8.10 comes out... seeing the Xander and Dawn interaction will make me feel better. I used to think that having him or any other core scooby killed off was my worst case scenario as a fan, but the traitor thing revealed that there is, in fact, a lower place.

I was pretty emotionally stirred up by the issue in the first place, so noticing the 'inside man' thing only after just freaked me out, pretty much. That's the most raw my nerves have been after Buffy since "Conversations with Dead People".

Nostalgia
07-12-07, 12:34 AM
I simply have what Americans call 'is-sewes' :)

I'll be on edge at least until 8.10 comes out... seeing the Xander and Dawn interaction will make me feel better. I used to think that having him or any other core scooby killed off was my worst case scenario as a fan, but the traitor thing revealed that there is, in fact, a lower place.

I was pretty emotionally stirred up by the issue in the first place, so noticing the 'inside man' thing only after just freaked me out, pretty much. That's the most raw my nerves have been after Buffy since "Conversations with Dead People".

Isn't this a good thing so? It shows you how powerful 'No Future For You' was.. and that the comic medium can indeed be just as strong. I am very looking forward to the next episodes.. because I'm quite in anxiety as well.. more with figuring out more about Twilight than actually worrying about the mole.. but I think it's great to know that Joss has something tricky up his sleeve.. Personally I kind of love being on the tip of my feet.

DigitalLeonardo
07-12-07, 06:28 AM
It was good, I really enjoy the Faith story lines on the series, and this comic was no exception. We had alot of great banter between Lady G and Faith which felt like the show.

My biggest issue though is the death of Lady G. It just felt rushed... I feel they could have maybe kept her alive and we could have seen some growth, it just felt like a wasted character, but her four issues were good.

The Faith/Giles team is always good and so much darker then Giles/Buffy it really makes you think what if Faith was called before Buffy? What would Giles be like now.

The art was a strong point, the fighting had some great panels and captured some really lively events. The cover is currently my favorite, it just captures Eliza to the T!

I dunno about the big bad, but its nice to see something that will maybe start connecting these stories rather then off on stories.

omri
07-12-07, 06:31 AM
another great issue! I think season 8 has the best srory line since season 5.
I dunno why Faith wanted the warlock to heal Gigi. After all, isn't that the reason she was there? to kill Gigi? You think Faith is a bit emotional when it comes to doing the right thing like buffy was in Graduation?

Wolfie Gilmore
07-12-07, 09:57 AM
I'd see more Willow than Xander.. there's no possible explanation once so ever.

I don't believe Willow would be a mole any more than Xander...however...anyone else think it's dodgy that she's been away and up to things on her own? ;) (not really but...if we're looking for people with the opportunity, if not the motive, then seems Willow would have).

Anon
07-12-07, 12:06 PM
I don't believe Willow would be a mole any more than Xander...however...anyone else think it's dodgy that she's been away and up to things on her own? ;) (not really but...if we're looking for people with the opportunity, if not the motive, then seems Willow would have).Given any situation, people always assume that the main player is someone we've seen quite a bit of. Personally, I think that one of the mystics they use is a traitor.

Koos
07-12-07, 12:14 PM
I'll be on edge at least until 8.10 comes out... seeing the Xander and Dawn interaction will make me feel better. I used to think that having him or any other core scooby killed off was my worst case scenario as a fan, but the traitor thing revealed that there is, in fact, a lower place.

No, the worst thing as a fan that can happen has already happened to a Xanderfan. It happened in S7 when Xander was shoved into the background and was useless to the writers.

Wolfie Gilmore
07-12-07, 12:33 PM
Given any situation, people always assume that the main player is someone we've seen quite a bit of. Personally, I think that one of the mystics they use is a traitor.

That wouldn't have much impact though...but, haven't read the comic yet...is the "our man on the inside" just a throwaway line perhaps? In which place it could be a mystic. But I'm hoping for Renee!

NileQT87
07-12-07, 01:00 PM
heh, i'd think the worst moments for a xander fan would be... becoming pt. 2, revelations, forever, etc... xander might have been pushed back (seasons 4, 5 and 7, actually), but at least in season 7 he was even likable for somebody who is even loyal to angel, buffy or spike--all three characters he was pretty rotten to on a frequent basis. remember, joss even had an idea to make xander have ben's role as glory's co-inhabiter and have giles kill xander. i'd imagine that is kingofcretins' worst nightmare. just be glad that didn't happen... though it would have certainly pushed giles' current darkness arc forward a great deal.

and apparently joss told nick that he didn't really have any more plans for xander at the end of season 3.

be lucky he got the anya/wedding arc and imo, the eye-poke and the speech to dawn were the most interesting things to happen to him for several seasons--certainly more than he got in seasons 4 and 5 (now, there's non-existent xander for you).

season 8 has been so much of a xander fest that i must admit, it's my one 'meh' against the season (though all that faith and giles makes up for it). i'm not really interested in the scooby dynamic, however. for me, it's always been about the vampires and other supernatural larger-than-life characters that appeal to me the most. i liked early willow in her nerdy "my mom picked it out" incarnation. anya pretty much saved xander's character for me (i prefer him MUCH more in the last two seasons--especially post-"selfless"). as for anya--now there's a character who was grossly underused until "hell's bells" through "selfless".

however, i think ats has snatched up all the interesting characters. angel, wesley and spike, in particular, are just miles above, in terms of storytelling, than any of the scoobies or even buffy--who often lives her story through others. though, giles and faith have the potential to boost up btvs a bit... without them, imo, season 8 wouldn't be half as interesting.

btvs had the classic relationships (best that ats had were dangel and fresley), but ats had a better core cast and definitely better stories/writing outside of btvs season 2 (the classic). and guess what? ats now has both the reasons why the classic btvs relationships were amazing.

fact: btvs in season 1 didn't really take off until the focus started to go to 'who is angel?' when joss was going to do buffy: the animated series, he was going to make it season 1, episode 7.5 a.k.a. the aftermath of "angel" + dawn.

it was never intended at first for the vamps to be all that important (in fact, angel was originally a one-shot stranger in an alley and spike was going to die mid-season 2). in fact, xander was supposed to get the girl. but it quickly became apparent what the audience wanted and what was best for epic storytelling--the direction that joss ultimately chose instead. with xander, it would have been just another teen show with a group of friends and episodic black & white morality silliness. with angel and spike... it became epically mythic and dramatic. angel, in particular, lead the show in an entirely different direction. he's what made the show NOT the movie. the slayer in love with a vampire plot is exactly what made the show not the movie. angel was the first truly morally gray character. there were no morally gray characters in the movie. frankly, i'd pick pike over xander.

as for season 8... it's definitely moving to tie this into fray--the world where the world of magic and demons has been wiped out.

what really is important, however, is when exactly this magic and demon wipe-out occurs. it sort of necessitates that certain inhuman and immortal characters very existences are being put on the block here. what happens to them? or might we get a fray continuation that reveals that besides the slayer line being reborn, there might have been a few characters that slipped through the cleansing (and yes, angel, spike, illyria, drusilla and harmony are all at large in this category). if this cleansing happens, those characters need to come up--because it particularly relates to them. lorne is another main character who would be at the receiving end. connor is also mystical and not quite human. then, you have oz and nina--the werewolves--other victims of a purge scenario. and, of course, the slayers.

there are a lot of characters who we care about who would be affected by the cleansing that we know happens by 2500 AD. forget reunited friends as the arc. season 8 is definitely moving towards the fray scenario. in fact, it's very possible that buffy is going to lose. what i care about is how it ends, how completely it ends and what happens to each character who is affected by this purge--the ones that can't just go on to be normal humans.

KingofCretins
07-12-07, 01:00 PM
No, the worst thing as a fan that can happen has already happened to a Xanderfan. It happened in S7 when Xander was shoved into the background and was useless to the writers.

I'd rather have him be a marginalized character who is still implicitly heroic than a main villain type and undermine everything he's been about.

I'm kinda done talking about it though -- with an announced Season 9, it's kinda hard to imagine that Joss would be asking us to read another five to seven *years* of comics down a scooby.

Wolfie Gilmore
07-12-07, 01:14 PM
I'd rather have him be a marginalized character who is still implicitly heroic than a main villain type and undermine everything he's been about.

I'm kinda done talking about it though -- with an announced Season 9, it's kinda hard to imagine that Joss would be asking us to read another five to seven *years* of comics down a scooby.

Unless Spike's brought in to replace XAnder? Just to make you happy.... :D :D :D

But, still, I don't think it's going to be Xander, don't worry too much!

Re marginalisation...I'd rather the interesting characters were used as much as possible, provided the development is interesting and believable. Xander acctually being evil, not believable. Xander having a cunning secret double cross plan? Still seems out of character, too sneaky. But...anyway. We shall see...

KingofCretins
07-12-07, 01:17 PM
Unless Spike's brought in to replace XAnder? Just to make you happy....

Sigh... people just aren't going to be happy until I'm back at the doctor's office asking for a xanax prescription. Let a guy cope, people!


I'd rather the interesting characters were used as much as possible, provided the development is interesting and believable.

I'm pretty much against hero to villain turns in general -- I was going to quit watching "Lost" when they teased Jack turning.

Wolfie Gilmore
07-12-07, 01:26 PM
Sigh... people just aren't going to be happy until I'm back at the doctor's office asking for a xanax prescription. Let a guy cope, people!

Whispers! Xander'satraitorXander'satraitor....
What? Nothing! Ahem. I honestly don't believe it will be Xander in any evil way. I think it's even unlikely it'll be him in a sly way. But...definitely no to evil Xander in the likely stakes.



I'm pretty much against hero to villain turns in general -- I was going to quit watching "Lost" when they teased Jack turning.

I'm sure there's an Oscar Wilde line about that. But it might be the opposite (bad people becoming good). Will look it up!

NileQT87
07-12-07, 01:55 PM
frankly, i think angel and spike fans (and any fans of supernatural characters) have the most to worry about here, seeing as though season 8 btvs is leading into the purge-magic scenario. it means that we have some immortality issues here that are going to run out before fray, possibly.

xander turning evil would be a footnote. and frankly, i doubt it. then again, i don't see gunn as all that great of a foe for angel. it's kind of the same scenario of not-that-bad in terms of epic end-of-the-world plots. a personal blow, but not a world blow. if you want to turn somebody evil, it has to be more than just hurtful. it has to be big, in terms of storytelling, interesting and believable (none of which really fits xander unless he got vamped, and even then, he's not even as bad as vamp-willow, much less angelus). as for xander being a spy... there are so many characters who fit a spy persona better.

faith could be an option if she does decide she wants rid of buffy after all. they hinted far more at that than they ever did at xander. and personally, i'm hoping that renée is the spy. or possibly warren is up to his old surveillance tricks.

wouldn't it be kind of cool if warren was actually twilight? the flaw there is that he was in an observation room that general voll looked into (along with amy). but, it would explain the face-hiding and all-over spandex body covering.

another idea... could twilight be the good guys that were trying to kill angel in "lineage"? perhaps with the idea that all magical beings are evil, and thus, why they went after angel; like how twilight mentioned that he basically wants magical things to kill themselves off (à la illyria and the old ones). i think those faceless ninjas might just be part of the twilight operation (and it clears up the biggest unanswered question from that episode). if so, we now know that buffy and angel have been the targets of an organization or organizations which want to kill off beings who fight for good, but these enemies are actually 'good', themselves... perhaps, from a certain point of view... in a purge-of-the-supernatural sense.

the whole faceless thing is very reminiscent of "lineage".

Koos
07-12-07, 02:20 PM
heh, i'd think the worst moments for a xander fan would be... becoming pt. 2, revelations, forever, etc... xander might have been pushed back (seasons 4, 5 and 7, actually), but at least in season 7 he was even likable for somebody who is even loyal to angel, buffy or spike.

Well, that's your opinion. To me they were his finest moments :kiss:

Seriously, the worst that can happen to a character is not being there. It's like a popstar who's losing his or her fame. A popstar might not like all the negative news about him or her, but it's still better than no news.

Wolfie Gilmore
07-12-07, 02:24 PM
the whole faceless thing is very reminiscent of "lineage".

And reminds me a little of Rorsh...cannot spell his name. Like the blot test! Rorsach? Gah! Wish Buffyforums had spellcheck D.

Dude from Watchmen with a covered face! That blank masculinity.

Anon
07-12-07, 02:36 PM
as for season 8... it's definitely moving to tie this into fray--the world where the world of magic and demons has been wiped out.

what really is important, however, is when exactly this magic and demon wipe-out occurs. it sort of necessitates that certain inhuman and immortal characters very existences are being put on the block here. what happens to them? or might we get a fray continuation that reveals that besides the slayer line being reborn, there might have been a few characters that slipped through the cleansing (and yes, angel, spike, illyria, drusilla and harmony are all at large in this category). if this cleansing happens, those characters need to come up--because it particularly relates to them. lorne is another main character who would be at the receiving end. connor is also mystical and not quite human. then, you have oz and nina--the werewolves--other victims of a purge scenario. and, of course, the slayers.

there are a lot of characters who we care about who would be affected by the cleansing that we know happens by 2500 AD. forget reunited friends as the arc. season 8 is definitely moving towards the fray scenario. in fact, it's very possible that buffy is going to lose. what i care about is how it ends, how completely it ends and what happens to each character who is affected by this purge--the ones that can't just go on to be normal humans.The series does seem to be moving towards Fray, but unless and until I am presented with good reason to believe otherwise, my position is that Fray is AU.

I can't help but wonder what is going on with Twilight. Their objectives seem to be the kind of thing I would have thought Buffy would support. Even if she didn't, it isn't clear why they seem to be after her. Leaving her and the slayers alone might make more sense.

I'm also not sure that Faith and Giles have 'removed themselves from the chessboard' to the extent that Twilight believes. If they are seeking out potential rogues and trying to prevent that from happening, it would appear that they will still have some influence over events.

Sosa lola
07-12-07, 03:08 PM
Did Xander do something awful in Forever? Unless you mean that flower scene with Spike, which I loved, because they were just so close, with each's rage breath smacking the other's face, 'causing emotions to explode. (I was going for NC 17 but then I remembered this is a PG forum :P And never ask me to write romance novels, ever :D)

Anyway, I thought Xander assuming Spike was there for selfish reasons is justified, seeing as they knew about Spike's crush on Buffy, tying her up to get her to confess her love, and I don't think the gang knew about Spike and Joyc's Passions fan club, hence it sounding funny that Spike will pay his respects to Joyce.

----

That was one powerful arc. I wasn't that interested in Faith's character before No Future For You, IMO it's the best Faith episode so far. I have enjoyed the continuation of the Buffy/Giles conflict that started since S7, I wish we get to see the why in Giles' actions though, I don't like when the writers get one sided, leaving us sympathize with Buffy, and making the other character the bad guy, I like to sympathize and understand both parties.

KingofCretins
07-12-07, 03:23 PM
"Becoming, Part II" was a fantastic moment for Xander -- guys, Joss himself killed the jealousy angle until it was dead. And, as noted, it's not unreasonable to think Spike wasn't on the level in "Forever" -- he was still just a couple weeks removed from the whole kidnapping and almost killing Buffy thing.

I personally think Twilight is a new, original character. Although, I'd buy the idea that he's the commander of the cyborgs from "Lineage", possibly, since the whole "control Angel's will to stop W&H" angle seems like it's made of the same basic stuff as "end the age of magic" thing.

If Twilight really is an established character, I think the boldest choice, although I don't expect they'd go for it, would be Riley. Basic scenario -- his happy-go-demon-hunter life is ruined at some point by Sam getting killed, he becomes very bitter about *all of it* with the demons and the magic and the Slayers, and ultimately holds Buffy responsible for him being as far into the life as he was.

Wolfie, the guy from Watchmen is Rorschach :) But, I really think that Twilight reminds me a lot of more of Bane or Ra's al Ghul so far.

Wolfie Gilmore
07-12-07, 03:30 PM
Wolfie, the guy from Watchmen is Rorschach But, I really think that Twilight reminds me a lot of more of Bane or Ra's al Ghul so far.

Ta! Spelling of things like that, tricksy.

Well, I should probably wait til I've actually seen the chap before I make comparisons! Curious to see what he's like...

And, sidenote, I always found it very confusing that Ra's al Ghul has an apostrophe there. His name's Al Ghul but he belongs to Ra...? But, off topic.

KingofCretins
07-12-07, 03:39 PM
He doesn't *look* like Bane per se, just... thinks like him. Thinks like Ra's, even. Ra's, incidentally, I think is supposed to be Egyptian, so maybe he *does* belong to Ra? I've never looked into his name.

I think you'll be suitably impressed by how Twilight looks. If you've seen the 8.11 cover, you've already seen him, but obscured.

Wolfie Gilmore
07-12-07, 03:45 PM
He doesn't *look* like Bane per se, just... thinks like him. Thinks like Ra's, even. Ra's, incidentally, I think is supposed to be Egyptian, so maybe he *does* belong to Ra? I've never looked into his name.

I always assumed there was something Egyptian involved...but didn't look into it either. Interesting re the thought processes of Twilight/Ra's. Don't know Bane quite well enough to think through that parallel. What aspects of his thought processes (think I might go and read teh transcript actually!).



I think you'll be suitably impressed by how Twilight looks. If you've seen the 8.11 cover, you've already seen him, but obscured.

That's him? Cool!

KingofCretins
07-12-07, 03:48 PM
Bane, in the comic, was really big on the chess match -- he thought his own power was inherently tied to destroying the Bat, to taking over the city by going *through* him. Twilight gives off this vibe like his agenda requires Buffy to be defeated in a very specific way, like she's the flagship of the world of magic that he's trying to destroy.

Yeah, that's him on the cover of 8.11. Incidentally, it's pretty obvious once you've seen him, that he is the flying boots guy.

Nostalgia
07-12-07, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by NileQT87
season 8 has been so much of a xander fest that i must admit, it's my one 'meh' against the season (though all that faith and giles makes up for it). i'm not really interested in the scooby dynamic, however. for me, it's always been about the vampires and other supernatural larger-than-life characters that appeal to me the most. i liked early willow in her nerdy "my mom picked it out" incarnation. anya pretty much saved xander's character for me (i prefer him MUCH more in the last two seasons--especially post-"selfless"). as for anya--now there's a character who was grossly underused until "hell's bells" through "selfless".

Sorry if this is offtopic.. but I couldn't resist..

Why exactly do you not like Xander? I think if anything he's one of the most underused characters.. if not the most. He's always been an importance to the series is very subtle ways.. and kept the comic relief in terms of when things were at their worst. Can you elaborate? You're one of the very few people I know who do not like Xander.

One of the other things that threw me off guard was that you are upset with the Scoobie gang focus (Buffy-Willow-Xander). Why is this? Did you not become a big fan of the series until after a few seasons.. when Spike was a main character? I love Spike to death.. but the show couldn't exist without the three main characters.. it's what the show is all about.

NileQT87
08-12-07, 01:42 AM
i'm actually a fan mostly of the early seasons of btvs and more so of ats (there is hardly an episode i dislike... beer bad is probably the easy target for least-liked episode). angel, wesley, darla, fred, spike and drusilla are probably my favorite characters overall.

believe it or not, i've even defended xander on occasion to a friend who was watching btvs and ats with me for the first time. a lot of viewers find him a bit peeve-worthy, you might find. then again, every character has their fans and dislikers. and i did mention i liked xander more in the later seasons with anya and frankly, i thought he became significantly more likable during the anya developments (though i felt sorry for anya--i have a thing for outcasts) and especially his speech to dawn. and imo, for me the series was always an epic mythological drama rather than a friends-who-fight-monsters show. and yes, i'm probably as big of a fan of angel as koc is of xander. i just don't relate to comic characters as much as dramatic sombre and/or nerdy characters. and one of my favorite aspects is the supernatural part. the all-human thing doesn't appeal to me as much.

and of course, there's the fact that xander just made loads of comments that i wouldn't have appreciated if i were buffy, much less angel or spike. i really don't think i'd like those things said to me if xander were my friend. but, as i said, in the later seasons ("selfless" went a long way to make me like xander), he was much nicer and had more interesting things to say than be comic relief and a frequent a** towards even buffy. heck, his ignoring of sweet nerdy willow was pretty sad, too (a character i love in her earliest incarnation, in particular). xander got more serious and wise at the end. that appealed to me more than his early jealous schoolboy incarnation.

however, i feel that ats at its peak (whenever focused on angel, wesley, darla, holtz or connor) was a stronger ensemble cast and more likable and deeper emotions and character progressions overall. and as for comic relief, i prefer the dry wit of angel and wesley or even lorne's brand of humor (but i'm more of a fan of the epic tragedy and dark storylines). and like nerdy-willow, fred had that same quality, but actually even more lovable to me. angel is probably the character i relate to the most, however.

and no, the core scoobies were never what i think of when i think btvs. i think: buffy, angel/angelus, faith/the mayor, dark willow, spike/drusilla, etc... and outside of passion and amends, i think giles is probably at his most interesting in a long time. now *that* was an underused character who had so much potential. wesley just ended up outshining giles in so many ways because more effort was put into wesley's story.

KingofCretins
08-12-07, 01:52 AM
Xander had to say the things he has always said to Buffy because nobody else *would*. The woman is wrong a lot... she's fantastically right in unexpected ways, but Joss didn't pick the title of the season 2 premier badly -- "when she was good, she was very, very good, and when she was bad she was horrid". Xander's always been the one to push back against the horrid.

You've given me a thread idea, btw :)

Nostalgia
08-12-07, 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by KingsofCretins
Xander had to say the things he has always said to Buffy because nobody else *would*. The woman is wrong a lot... she's fantastically right in unexpected ways, but Joss didn't pick the title of the season 2 premier badly -- "when she was good, she was very, very good, and when she was bad she was horrid". Xander's always been the one to push back against the horrid.

You've given me a thread idea, btw

I love Xander.. but I have to say I wouldn't agree with you here. Xander made a lot of boneheaded calls.. (specifically season 3.. which is the only time where I really was mad at him). His anger towards her throughout that season really stirred me up.. and knowing that Nile never really liked him that much.. I'm assuming it is because of the Xander/Angel rivalry.

I wouldn't say Buffy makes a lot of bad calls though.. she is after all the best slayer to ever live. I think if anything Buffy makes mostly all good calls.. but no human is perfect. I think the title of the season 2 opener was specifically pointing to her attitude towards everyone. This is the only time we've ever seen her like this.

I'm not sure what you are pointing to..

Weredog
08-12-07, 04:18 AM
I personally think Twilight is a new, original character. Although, I'd buy the idea that he's the commander of the cyborgs from "Lineage", possibly, since the whole "control Angel's will to stop W&H" angle seems like it's made of the same basic stuff as "end the age of magic" thing.

I think (and hope) that Twilight is an original character. I'm sorry, but I have been deprived from new badass villains (last count was season 5's Glory in 2001).
Now if your secondary belief of Twilight's identity is the cyborg from "Angel", I'll be a little upset. Do you really think Joss would do that? I mean, he must know that there are fans (cough, like me) who don't watch "Angel," no?
God, I hate monthly issues. I just wanna know read the whole season now. Or at least bi-weekly... bi-weekly... bi-weekly...


If Twilight really is an established character, I think the boldest choice, although I don't expect they'd go for it, would be Riley. Basic scenario -- his happy-go-demon-hunter life is ruined at some point by Sam getting killed, he becomes very bitter about *all of it* with the demons and the magic and the Slayers, and ultimately holds Buffy responsible for him being as far into the life as he was.
It does have some shreds of believability, but if Joss is actually going with this, I'm going to be mad. I'm sorry, but Joss should know that Riley isn't a fan favourite, so to bring him back as a big bad villain would be very unwise. And since Joss is anything but unwise, I don't think Twilight is Riley. ;)

KingofCretins
08-12-07, 04:24 AM
Now if your secondary belief of Twilight's identity is the cyborg from "Angel", I'll be a little upset. Do you really think Joss would do that? I mean, he must know that there are fans (cough, like me) who don't watch "Angel," no?

There's only so much he can be reasonably expected to parse out his mythology over it, though, with all due respect. It's not like he doesn't want you to watch Angel, too.

Faith's sudden basic hero thing in Season 7 must have driven you nuts, without her six Angel appearances for context.

Weredog
08-12-07, 04:31 AM
Faith's sudden basic hero thing in Season 7 must have driven you nuts, without her six Angel appearances for context.

Not as much as Angel and Buffy's awkward hostility in "The Yoko Factor." ;)

Although, I think this instance is different. Joss is re-introducing the world of Buffy through comic books. I personally would find it very risky for him to bring in a character from the television spin-off series.

NileQT87
08-12-07, 04:33 AM
or where the heck that amulet came from. ;) btvs had plenty of things that originated on ats and likewise. in fact, fred even got mentioned in "lies my parents told me". and of course, faith is the big one. her journey on ats was more powerful and important to her development than anything she did post-season 3 btvs on btvs. most of her development WAS on ats.

in fact, that nifty little scythe that buffy's been sporting since season 7 btvs? it came from the comic books--"fray".

these comics aren't for casual viewers who don't really know much about btvs/ats... and some who haven't even seen every episode of just one of the two. these comics are for fans who fully understand and know the world. these comics are loaded with stuff that might seem vague to casual viewers of the series.

you must have been scratching your head about the "the girl in question" reference to andrew's joke scheme and the slayer in rome with the immortal. "the chain" was almost completely built around a plot that was created on ats--there are fake buffies running around.

joss is definitely going into these comics with fans of the entire 'verse in mind... not people who choose to deny the existence of half the story. these characters are in the same 'verse. and twilight isn't just bad for characters on btvs... it's even worse for those on ats (a higher percentage of them are supernatural and/or immortal).

KingofCretins
08-12-07, 04:34 AM
It's kind of a shame... the word "champion" really only comes up once in Buffy, when she calls Spike one. Without watching Angel, the full significance of that term really isn't there.

Wait... you mentioned "The Yoko Factor"... does this mean you haven't seen "I Will Remember You"?

NileQT87
08-12-07, 04:46 AM
weredog--seriously. add seasons 1-5 ats to your christmas list. there are so many characters that vacillate between shows. and the btvs comics are NOT shying away from ats information.

though, i'm a little miffed that faith hasn't mentioned what angel and wesley did for her in season 8 so far. angel is pretty much her 3rd father figure--and closer to her than giles. angel's her frickin' savior.

Faith: Angel's the only one in my life who's never given up on me.

KingofCretins
08-12-07, 04:49 AM
With all due respect to your avatar and your... you, but Faith and Angel would actually make a better-than-reasonable couple.

The two shows were always meant to be watched in tandem, until UPN got Buffy. But even then, WB didn't put Angel opposite it.

NileQT87
08-12-07, 04:59 AM
oh, i would have adored angel and faith (nothing against that idea). nor: darla, buffy, fred, etc... the ones i don't like have nothing to do with who gets buffy. i'd totally go for angel/faith. though, angel/darla is probably the one i'd like most at the end... especially because of connor.

but overall, the buffy/angel thing also has a lot to do with the two greatest leaders and champions of the two equally important shows. there's that aspect to it as well. they are the two #1 ranking characters in how important they are to the 'verse. spike is up there, as well... but he hasn't become a leader, yet.

i love the faith/giles thing though. but while faith mentioned her influences as wilkins and giles... angel felt oddly absent. even wesley felt neglected.

Weredog
08-12-07, 05:04 AM
or where the heck that amulet came from. ;)

I actually never thought of its origin. I assumed Joss slipped that in the last minute for Spike's convenience. I just assumed Wesley gave it Angel to give to Buffy or something like that.


and of course, faith is the big one. her journey on ats was more powerful and important to her development than anything she did post-season 3 btvs on btvs. most of her development WAS on ats.

Yeah, I know of it. I know that she went to jail soon after "Who Are You" in season 4 (of "Buffy"). Then when Faith showed up in season 7 and said that a bringer came to her jail cell and ran away, that covered most of it (no?).


in fact, that nifty little scythe that buffy's been sporting since season 7 btvs? it came from the comic books--"fray".

Although, yes, I found that out after "Chosen," that recognition doesn't affect the episode since "Fray" comes centuries after "Buffy." Therefore, the introduction of the Scythe in "Buffy" only made "Fray" fans jump, but it didn't flex the episode itself whatsoever.


these comics aren't for casual viewers who don't really know much about btvs/ats... and some who haven't even seen every episode of just one of the two.

Trust me, I know everything about Buffy, Angel, and "Buffy."
"Angel" not so much.


you must have been scratching your head about the "the girl in question" reference to andrew's joke scheme and the slayer in rome with the immortal. "the chain" was almost completely built around a plot that was created on ats.
No, not at all actually.
I didn't know that "Angel" referenced the Buffy decoys. Despite not knowing this, "The Chain" worked effectively for me. I didn't feel like I was only given half my dish. What did "Angel" mention of the decoys that "The Chain" didn't?


joss is definitely going into these comics with fans of the entire 'verse in mind... not people who choose to deny the existence of half the story.
Kay, back up a bit. I'm not denying half the story. I know that whatever happens in "Angel" takes place in the Buffyverse. You have to admit, "Buffy" and "Angel" are two different shows (with similar mythology.) For me, the show never hooked me the way "Buffy" did, and that is my case. For some, it did. For some it hooked them in ways "Buffy" didn't.
I know Faith went in jail and that there are cyborgs that look like Twilight (apparently) but I don't see why either should depend on the other to have their story told.


Wait... you mentioned "The Yoko Factor"... does this mean you haven't seen "I Will Remember You"?

Oh, no no no no. Of course I did. I did watch the first three or four episodes of "Angel" when it originally aired, but it left me rather dry. Then, when I heard of the second crossover with Buffy, I definitely watched it and it was amazing. I remember watching the next episode after that and it was good as well, (with the Irish guy sacrificing himself... God, I can't remember his name. I keep thinking Whistler, but no.)

NileQT87
08-12-07, 05:12 AM
I actually never thought of its origin. I assumed Joss slipped that in the last minute for Spike's convenience. I just assumed Wesley gave it Angel to give to Buffy or something like that.

Yeah, I know of it. I know that she went to jail soon after "Who Are You" in season 4 (of "Buffy"). Then when Faith showed up in season 7 and said that a bringer came to her jail cell and ran away, that covered most of it (no?).

nope... had nothing to do with wesley. you might also want to know the real purpose behind the amulet (it was way more than destroying the hellmouth). imo, it was more important to ats than it ever was to btvs. in fact, it came from ats-only characters.

yes, she went to jail. no, what was heard on buffy (though there was a strong reference to the brainwalk with angel in "orpheus") wasn't even a smidgen of what happened to faith. and it wasn't a bringer that came to kill faith in jail. it was debbie (a.k.a. patrice from the order of taraka--same actress). you might also want to learn who broke faith out of jail and why.

and darla? she didn't stay dead from "angel" in season 1.

there's just so much you're rejecting and you don't entirely realize it. its two halves of a whole. i don't consider either show a standalone. they are the same story expanded on two fronts. btvs took from ats as often as ats took from btvs. and you quit 4 episodes in? no wonder. seriously watch the whole thing.

Koos
08-12-07, 08:59 AM
I love Xander.. but I have to say I wouldn't agree with you here. Xander made a lot of boneheaded calls.. (specifically season 3.. which is the only time where I really was mad at him). His anger towards her throughout that season really stirred me up.. and knowing that Nile never really liked him that much.. I'm assuming it is because of the Xander/Angel rivalry.

I too lost Xander there at the time. He said things to Buffy that I never would say to a best friend. And I am definitely not a Buffy/Angel fan. It took me during S4 that I liked him back and started to understand his role.
But looking back upon that period, I personally think that what he said was true and that someone had to say it to Buffy. I'm a bit angry with Joss that it has to be one of Buffy's best friends to play this role, especially because Angel was his rival. It's kind of cheap. And IMO it should have been her watcher: Giles.

vampmogs
08-12-07, 09:17 AM
Me and my best friends have said those kind of things to eachother, probably worse. Because we are best friends we can, we are closer to eachother than anyone if they can't tell me these things and likewise who can? The only time I was really angry at Xander during the whole thing was in 'Revelations' when he acts to Buffy as if he believes Angel attacked Giles, even though he tells Faith it isn't Angel's style earlier. He was cruel to do that, but as far as bad things people have done in the verse it hardly compares. Somehow I'll get over it :D

Koos
08-12-07, 09:27 AM
Me and my best friends have said those kind of things to eachother, probably worse. Because we are best friends we can, we are closer to eachother than anyone if they can't tell me these things and likewise who can?

Were you also in love with your best friend?

I can say those things to my best friend too, but I would have brought it with more tact.



He was cruel to do that, but as far as bad things people have done in the verse it hardly compares. Somehow I'll get over it :D

Yeah, like hiding the person who has tried to murder you and all your friends. Don't forget that in the total picture.

Anon
08-12-07, 11:58 AM
Yeah, like hiding the person who has tried to murder you and all your friends. Don't forget that in the total picture.I would, except that it was made clear that Angel and Angelus aren't the same person. Including it would only distort the picture away from the truth rather than putting things in perspective.

Koos
08-12-07, 12:46 PM
I would, except that it was made clear that Angel and Angelus aren't the same person.

But at the time that was hardly clear. Buffy could at most suspect that Angel was ensouled. The others never really knew if the ensouling spell had succeeded. They also didn't know what the effects could be on Angel if he had his soul back. Sure, they knew what Angel with a soul was before he had lost it. But, they could not be certain if this Angel would or could be still the same.


Including it would only distort the picture away from the truth rather than putting things in perspective.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

Nostalgia
08-12-07, 03:35 PM
I think the thing that gave Xander redemption in season 3 was when he offered to help Buffy and Giles save Angel.. that gave him a lot of credit and I had to forgive him for his actions because of that.

Anon
08-12-07, 04:14 PM
But at the time that was hardly clear. Buffy could at most suspect that Angel was ensouled. The others never really knew if the ensouling spell had succeeded. They also didn't know what the effects could be on Angel if he had his soul back. Sure, they knew what Angel with a soul was before he had lost it. But, they could not be certain if this Angel would or could be still the same. Buffy could be certain. She knew both Angel and Angelus. She could sense the difference between them, even if it wasn't obvious from his behaviour. As for the others, Buffy told them that the spell had worked shortly before Angel returned. At the very least they could be certain that it was Angel they were dealing with, not Angelus.


I'm not sure what you mean by this?I'm saying that if you try to base any interpretation of events on the idea that Buffy had been sheltering Angelus, the interpretation will necessarily be flawed.

Koos
08-12-07, 04:34 PM
Buffy could be certain. She knew both Angel and Angelus. She could sense the difference between them, even if it wasn't obvious from his behaviour. As for the others, Buffy told them that the spell had worked shortly before Angel returned. At the very least they could be certain that it was Angel they were dealing with, not Angelus.

How would Buffy know the difference between Angel and Angelus? And as far as I know Buffy has never told them about the soul.




I'm saying that if you try to base any interpretation of events on the idea that Buffy had been sheltering Angelus, the interpretation will necessarily be flawed.

I base by interpretations on Angel not Angelus.

Tom
08-12-07, 10:39 PM
My favourite issue so far. It had excellent art and dialogue. I could picture everything as though it was on the TV. I love that Faith is going to be sticking around too. I think its brilliant how Giles and Faith have confided in one another.

When Buffy and Giles began to separate in Season 7 I saw no purpose to the plot than to add further tension to the battle against the First. Now the separation of Buffy and Giles not only has a purpose but it is actually has meaning to all three characters involved. (Buffy, Giles and Faith).

Faith VS Roden kicked ass.

Weredog
08-12-07, 10:42 PM
Faith VS Roden kicked ass.

Giles VS Roden kicked even more asses. It was insane! It had Scary Veiny Roden getting stabbed in the back with flower cuttery scissorlike things (is there a single encompassing word for that?) And, um, oh yeah, "burst." Ahhh that was glorious.

Faith VS Roden was good (ie. "Thanks, but I'm not much of a reader."), but Giles owned Roden!

Wolfie Gilmore
09-12-07, 06:12 PM
Finally read this. Some very powerful stuff. Wrote a fic tag to it (well, kind of a missing scene) to explore some of the emotional resonances of it, though I'll come back and write more discursive, critical thoughts later. :)

The fic was from a prompt by KingofCretins btw:

http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?p=116964#post116964

Quickly, I had a few issues with the Buffy/Giles stuff, but I'll come back to that.

KingofCretins
09-12-07, 06:49 PM
You managed to make me sniffle up over Genevieve all over again, Wolfie :)

I definitely wish they'd included a scene, or at least a dialogue acknowledgement, of this idea in the issue. I don't think Faith would want to just leave her there. It's kinda like that cop thing -- you don't leave a cop laying next to the guy what killed him. You don't leave a Slayer, a sister or something else, led down the wrong path, laying next to the guy who got her killed.

Wolfie Gilmore
10-12-07, 12:27 PM
You managed to make me sniffle up over Genevieve all over again, Wolfie :)

Thanks! Or possibly...sorry ;)



I definitely wish they'd included a scene, or at least a dialogue acknowledgement, of this idea in the issue. I don't think Faith would want to just leave her there. It's kinda like that cop thing -- you don't leave a cop laying next to the guy what killed him. You don't leave a Slayer, a sister or something else, led down the wrong path, laying next to the guy who got her killed.

Leaving dead bodies lying about does seem...uncomfortable. But I'm guessing that neither Faith nor Giles would want to risk sticking around. But I do think Faith might go back, yes...

The Faith/Giles + Faith/Gigi + Faith/Buffy + Gigi/Roden parallels over this whole arc were (and continue to be) powerful and thought-provoking. Though I think we're beyond parallels here and into fragmented-matrix-of -crazy-fairground-mirrors territory.

Faith's loss of Gigi was tragic. Though, technically, she achieved mission success so....yay?? ;)

Gigi was an over-the-top character, with her pantomime evil aristo attitudes ,like some hollywood villainess in training? Might fit in well in a Bond film? But I found myself caring for her - partly because Faith does, but also because she's a vulnerable, lonely figure. Someone who's never learned how to form relationships except in a twisted way, but who's still a human being who can be hurt.

She's a little bit evil, but she wasn't beyond saving (Faith is proof that you can turn yourself around like that). So sad that Faith never had the chance to do for Gigi what Angel did for her.

Giles stabbing Roden with shears (anyone else have a flashback to that girl in School Hard who stabbed teachers with pinking shears?) was chilling. Something about the expression of concentrated fury on Giles's face...and my own enjoyment of the act. Disturbing and powerful.

Sploding head, cool. :D But then we see a little pity and horror at what he'd done in Giles's face. He's not a stone killer, he still knows that what he's done is a terrible thing, despite being necessary.

The aspect of this issue that didn't really work so well for me was the Buffy/Giles stuff. I felt a little cheated that Buffy's anger was about Giles working with Faith and not at the fact that Giles was organising secret wetworks missions on slayers! It made me lose respect for her, and I'm not sure that her reaction felt in character. Or rather...I'd hoped she was past that, and able to see Giles's actions in terms of what they mean for her mission, not just an angry personal reaction like she had re Faith and Angel in season 4.

Maybe there is just so much anger left about Faith - and perhaps anger left at Giles over his mission to kill Spike? - that she can't see the wood for the trees. But, I do think it would've been more interesting in terms of what Giles was up to to have her get pissed at him for organising the mission in the first place, with her anger about Faith's involvement as more of a secondary concern. I hope they explore that more...though would've preferred more about that right away, while the iron's hot.

That criticism should be put in the context of me thinking this is an awesome story though, and my desire for certain things to be raised and disappointment that they're not is partly because this arc's thrown up SO many ethical and personal issues for the characters that it'd be impossible to confront them all.

The Faith/Giles team up could be wonderful for both of their characters, though I do still want to see a proper Giles/Buffy scene over it.

Re the ending and the mole...I'm torn between thinking "our man on the inside" is just some random slayer, and thinking it's Renee. I honestly don't believe it's a scooby. No particular backup for that feeling, but...it's what my intuition tells me. Of course, that way could lead to thousands of bunnies and sword-fighting skeletons ;)

Twilight's last line was excellent. Chilling. I want to know more about him and who and what and...oh yes, just remembered something Gigi said about slayers that I didn't quite understand. Why did she talk about wiping out slayers to stop her dreams? Is this something she's talked about before? And didn't she want to be queen of the slayers, not to off them? Confused!

Maggie
10-12-07, 05:50 PM
Gigi was an over-the-top character, with her pantomime evil aristo attitudes ,like some hollywood villainess in training? Might fit in well in a Bond film? But I found myself caring for her - partly because Faith does, but also because she's a vulnerable, lonely figure. Someone who's never learned how to form relationships except in a twisted way, but who's still a human being who can be hurt.

I did care about her, but the over-the-topness has gotten so thick that I find myself skipping her bubbles. I can't dope out what effect they wanted to achieve with that.


Giles stabbing Roden with shears (anyone else have a flashback to that girl in School Hard who stabbed teachers with pinking shears?) was chilling. Something about the expression of concentrated fury on Giles's face...and my own enjoyment of the act. Disturbing and powerful.

Sploding head, cool. :D But then we see a little pity and horror at what he'd done in Giles's face. He's not a stone killer, he still knows that what he's done is a terrible thing, despite being necessary.

I thought all of this was quite powerful. Comics can convey real emotion better than I'd have guessed. Loved Giles moment here in all its facets: the powerful emotions, the quick thinking to overcome Roden, Faith's understanding of what it meant for him.



The aspect of this issue that didn't really work so well for me was the Buffy/Giles stuff. I felt a little cheated that Buffy's anger was about Giles working with Faith and not at the fact that Giles was organising secret wetworks missions on slayers! It made me lose respect for her, and I'm not sure that her reaction felt in character. Or rather...I'd hoped she was past that, and able to see Giles's actions in terms of what they mean for her mission, not just an angry personal reaction like she had re Faith and Angel in season 4.

The reaction is certainly a part of the character's history. But you're right, we need some story about why its there in such a strong way NOW. At the end of issue #3, I thought we saw Buffy pausing to actually hear Faith out -- right before she got zapped away. That seemed to me to be right. In the heat of the moment, old uglies slip out -- but Buffy's growth shows itself in her ability to step out of the moment and try to see past her own issues. #4 just dumped Buffy back into her old Faith issues -- and even shows her indulging them even though it means delaying Giles' efforts to help Faith out of a life-threatening situation. Though others disagree, I think it is not flattering to her character at all.

This is one of the places where my refrain "we need more story" just starts screaming. Why is Buffy still having huge sibling issues with Faith? Why is she so hurt (devastated? bitter?) at Giles statement that he wants her out of it -- there's something in that which is so huge it just stops Buffy in full rant and leads to her totally withdrawing. And why has Giles been so secretive about everything? To protect Buffy? Buffy's reactions here suggest there's more going on. Over on LJ some people I really respect who have held out hope for the comics are withdrawing over this issue. They don't expect there to be more story, and are unwilling to go along with a story that refuses to tell us what's really going on. The last major holdout for the comics has offered the theory that what we are seeing is the middle of a rift that has already happened -- and that the way to read the comics is as a big mosaic, with pieces put in slowly. I like that possibility and it allows me to remain hopeful about the comics. But it does require more pieces on Buffy/Giles. So this is shaping up as a deal-breaker for me. I won't be able to take the comics seriously if what we see is really all we're going to get.


Maybe there is just so much anger left about Faith - and perhaps anger left at Giles over his mission to kill Spike? - that she can't see the wood for the trees. But, I do think it would've been more interesting in terms of what Giles was up to to have her get pissed at him for organising the mission in the first place, with her anger about Faith's involvement as more of a secondary concern. I hope they explore that more...though would've preferred more about that right away, while the iron's hot.

If it turns out that we are getting a mosaic-style exposition, it'll be interesting once we have the big picture to step back and ask whether some of the narrative impact was lost by the slow dribbling out of the information needed to understand central emotional moments like this. Even the mosaic-proponent on LJ has said that Joss is pursuing a risky strategy -- since by the time we do understand what's going on, a good chunk of his audience will already have walked away.


That criticism should be put in the context of me thinking this is an awesome story though, and my desire for certain things to be raised and disappointment that they're not is partly because this arc's thrown up SO many ethical and personal issues for the characters that it'd be impossible to confront them all.

Yeah, the increasing disillusionment on LJ is disappointing to me, because these last few comics are so rich in ethical and personal issues -- so people are walking away just as I start to get more interested. I agree that the comics aren't going to hit every angle of the issues brought up -- but they need to hit some of them. Back to the deal-breaker issue for me.


The Faith/Giles team up could be wonderful for both of their characters, though I do still want to see a proper Giles/Buffy scene over it.

I liked this, though I'm still bugged that the ending seemed too easy. And do we sense a few hints that their partnership might be a bit 'involved'?


Re the ending and the mole...I'm torn between thinking "our man on the inside" is just some random slayer, and thinking it's Renee. I honestly don't believe it's a scooby. No particular backup for that feeling, but...it's what my intuition tells me. Of course, that way could lead to thousands of bunnies and sword-fighting skeletons ;)

No bunnies!!! Re: the mole -- I'm rooting for anything that shakes things up in an interesting way.

KingofCretins
10-12-07, 06:07 PM
This is one of the places where my refrain "we need more story" just starts screaming. Why is Buffy still having huge sibling issues with Faith? Why is she so hurt (devastated? bitter?) at Giles statement that he wants her out of it -- there's something in that which is so huge it just stops Buffy in full rant and leads to her totally withdrawing.

The things with Faith will never need a reason, they'll just need an opportunity. Contrary to the common interpretation of the sister thing there, Buffy is the younger sister to Faith. Faith is the failed older model, while Buffy is the idealized second that everyone is so proud of. Faith's the one everyone gives up on, Buffy's the one everyone believes in. Faith's the independent who tires of authority, Buffy is (relatively speaking) the approval seeker. And Faith is the broken role-model that Buffy always must either punish or try to repair.

The thing with Giles... Buffy withdrawing is what Buffy does. And, yeah, I think that, whatever has come and gone between him, that the cutting her out must hurt (since this had been, allegedly, fixed in "Chosen" -- the non-communication). Couple that with her surrogate father choosing the older sister -- pain for a Buffy.

I don't sweat the disillusionment on LJ -- the numbers aren't falling. I think there's a sorting out process by which the people who've decided they won't make the adjustment to the comic medium wander off and bail on it.

I think you can make a strong empirical argument for it being Renee, both based on the comic, and the conventions of the genre. And, it would shake things up plenty, especially if they actually pursue a Xander/Renee thing.

Wolfie Gilmore
10-12-07, 06:15 PM
The things with Faith will never need a reason, they'll just need an opportunity.

But, by using that moment of conflict with Giles to bring up Buffy's issues with Faith, rather than the issues brought up by Faith's mission pissed me off. The guy is setting up an off-the-books wetworks mission. That's not exactly the sort of thing Buffy would enjoy as a leader. I would've preferred the Faith conflict to be more of a side issue. You know..."You're murdering people? You're murdering slayers? Would you care to explain that? And while you're at it, care to mention why you're using FAITH to do it? Faith of the homocidal sprees for fun...now you'e encouraging her to do it professionally?"

Perhaps she could've done a throwback to Giles's cusses of season 3, about her not respecting him or the job he does...because he's not respecting her or the job she does as leader if he's keeping that from her. Or at least, that's how she'd see it (in my not-actually-what-happened scenario ;)).

Bringing everything back to Faith isn't nearly as interesting as linking the Faith issues to the issue of Giles carrying out morally questionable secret ops that return him to exactly the same badnesses as the watcher's council - playing with girls' lives without asking the permission of said girls.



The thing with Giles... Buffy withdrawing is what Buffy does.

Yes. But leaving someone to have the last word? Less so!

sueworld
10-12-07, 06:30 PM
I did care about her, but the over-the-topness has gotten so thick that I find myself skipping her bubbles. I can't dope out what effect they wanted to achieve with that.


I found her to be a hideous caraciture. Her dialog was on the whole abysmal and I just found it a relief when she was dispatched I'm afraid.

I'm amazed that anyone was meant to feel any sympathy for her at all.


Yeah, the increasing disillusionment on LJ is disappointing to me, because these last few comics are so rich in ethical and personal issues -- so people are walking away just as I start to get more interested. I agree that the comics aren't going to hit every angle of the issues brought up -- but they need to hit some of them. Back to the deal-breaker issue for me.



This series is still very much a huge disappointment for me, but I'm still holding out that as the series goes on many of the huge list of questions will gradually be answered. I can't believe that Joss is so daft as to not realise that to continually ask his audience to fill so many important 'blanks' all the time just isn't going to enamer him to some.

Anon
10-12-07, 06:43 PM
But, by using that moment of conflict with Giles to bring up Buffy's issues with Faith, rather than the issues brought up by Faith's mission pissed me off. The guy is setting up an off-the-books wetworks mission. That's not exactly the sort of thing Buffy would enjoy as a leader. I would've preferred the Faith conflict to be more of a side issue. You know..."You're murdering people? You're murdering slayers? Would you care to explain that? And while you're at it, care to mention why you're using FAITH to do it? Faith of the homocidal sprees for fun...now you'e encouraging her to do it professionally?"Actually this seems to be more a case of anger that Giles has deemed something sufficiently important to drag Faith into it and hadn't even bothered to let her know about it. There was no way she could possibly have known what Faith was trying to do, so there's no reason for her to be angry about that.


Why is she so hurt (devastated? bitter?) at Giles statement that he wants her out of it -- there's something in that which is so huge it just stops Buffy in full rant and leads to her totally withdrawing. You mean aside from having been teleported into the middle of someone else's house, almost killed by two different slayers and then having been fobbed off upon asking for some sort of explanation and told that she shouldn't get involved? That seems like reason enough to me.

litzie
10-12-07, 06:48 PM
Bringing everything back to Faith isn't nearly as interesting as linking the Faith issues to the issue of Giles carrying out morally questionable secret ops that return him to exactly the same badnesses as the watcher's council - playing with girls' lives without asking the permission of said girls.

Jumping into the discussion late here, but - I really agree. The thing I like about the comics is the potential to further explore character interactions and storylines that we didn't have time for in the tv series - what resolution there was in terms of giles' actions re spike was superficial at best. In fact the entire scooby resolution itself at the end of s7 was pretty superficial. SO...let's get more in depth! Faith and Buffy's issues, on the other hand, have been pretty well hashed over. This isn't so much new ground as it is old, predictable, and honestly out-dated-in-terms-of-buffy's-character-development ground. Why bring things back to old faith and buffy relations when there are NEW buffy/faith relations and NEW buffy/giles relations to explore?

I think that's my overall gripe with the comics. I like them, I do; I'm not a big comics reader though my girlfriend's been getting me more into them (:)) but I don't mind the medium. What bothers me is the way we are sometimes getting really superficial character interactions because of the constraints of the medium. It felt to me in this issue that there simply wasn't room to go into buffy's and giles' issues (especially with all those pages of fighting!! ;)). Maybe this makes sense when we consider that it was faith's run...but still frustrating and disappointing.

Of course big whopping caveat that I really enjoy the comics as a whole...and I'm defintely not going to stop reading. I actually appreciate their flexibility in a way...they're cannon, but they don't really have to be a part of my cannon if I don't want them to. So if anything really annoys me I'll just close my eyes and pretend I didn't see!

Maggie
10-12-07, 07:15 PM
The things with Faith will never need a reason, they'll just need an opportunity. Contrary to the common interpretation of the sister thing there, Buffy is the younger sister to Faith. Faith is the failed older model, while Buffy is the idealized second that everyone is so proud of. Faith's the one everyone gives up on, Buffy's the one everyone believes in. Faith's the independent who tires of authority, Buffy is (relatively speaking) the approval seeker. And Faith is the broken role-model that Buffy always must either punish or try to repair.

Not sure where you get Buffy as the younger sister. There might be aspects that read it that way. But there are also aspects that read it the other way. The fact that when Faith arrives Buffy views her as poaching on her territory with her Mom, with her friends, and (later) with Angel is a big sister reaction to an unwelcome younger sister. The rest of your observations are mostly apt though. Buffy as the approval seeker is because she's always had approval -- Faith's rejection of authority is because she hasn't. And I think Buffy wants to think that Faith is a project that must be either punished or repaired -- it suits Buffy perfectly well to have Faith in that position. And that's part of what enrages Faith -- leading her to act in ways that just reinforce the dynamic.


I don't sweat the disillusionment on LJ -- the numbers aren't falling. I think there's a sorting out process by which the people who've decided they won't make the adjustment to the comic medium wander off and bail on it.

I sweat it because the people bailing are the people who think about the series in the ways that I do -- so I'm losing my main conversation partners.

Wolfie:


But, by using that moment of conflict with Giles to bring up Buffy's issues with Faith, rather than the issues brought up by Faith's mission pissed me off. The guy is setting up an off-the-books wetworks mission. That's not exactly the sort of thing Buffy would enjoy as a leader. I would've preferred the Faith conflict to be more of a side issue. You know..."You're murdering people? You're murdering slayers? Would you care to explain that? And while you're at it, care to mention why you're using FAITH to do it? Faith of the homocidal sprees for fun...now you'e encouraging her to do it professionally?"

Perhaps she could've done a throwback to Giles's cusses of season 3, about her not respecting him or the job he does...because he's not respecting her or the job she does as leader if he's keeping that from her. Or at least, that's how she'd see it (in my not-actually-what-happened scenario ).

Bringing everything back to Faith isn't nearly as interesting as linking the Faith issues to the issue of Giles carrying out morally questionable secret ops that return him to exactly the same badnesses as the watcher's council - playing with girls' lives without asking the permission of said girls.

Exactly. The only place where we part company is that I also need more story about why Giles appears to be making a series of really bad, if not vile, moves here. I totally don't think Buffy and Giles had things resolved in The Chosen -- but I'm also surprised to be presented with a Giles who is, if anything, even worse on these issues than ever. So, all of this is either a mark that Joss and Brian don't give a toss anymore about character development -- or that we haven't seen the whole picture yet. I'm hoping for the latter.

Litzie: I agree with every word you wrote.

KingofCretins
10-12-07, 07:28 PM
For purposes of my sibling analysis, change Faith's name to Fred Claus :)


I sweat it because the people bailing are the people who think about the series in the ways that I do -- so I'm losing my main conversation partners.

My best friends won't really even bother to read them no matter how much I try. Very aggravating.

Wolfie, as far as a call back to Revelations, how about something like this in 8.09 or in a follow-up conversation, with Buffy pointedly reminding him of the encounter and how she even remembers how it goes before reciting to him --

"I won't remind you that the fate of the world often rests with the Slayer, what would be the point? Nor shall I remind you that you have jeopardized my life and the lives of everyone else here by concealing this situation from us. But sadly I must remind you that Faith and I spent a long time rebuilding some kind of trust, and so had you and I, and that your secrecy has ruined that in both cases.

You should have told me about this mission and Faith's involvement. You didn't. You have no respect for me, or the job I perform."

Would that serve?

Anon
10-12-07, 07:51 PM
I'm starting to wonder if I'm reading the same comics as other people. According to some here, Buffy had perfect information on what Faith was doing, it was only the fact that Giles was working with Faith that upset her, and the events preceding her phonecall were by no means sufficient grounds to make her resentful when Giles fobbed her off by saying he didn't want her involved. I also wonder when logical extensions of previous behaviour became poor character development.

sueworld
10-12-07, 08:06 PM
What bothers me is the way we are sometimes getting really superficial character interactions because of the constraints of the medium. It felt to me in this issue that there simply wasn't room to go into buffy's and giles' issues (especially with all those pages of fighting!! ). Maybe this makes sense when we consider that it was faith's run...but still frustrating and disappointing.

Exactly . Thats what I also find so frustrating about both the medium and how its being used. Stories take too long to unfold, and yet when they do they feel 'rushed' at the very end. Work that one out!

litzie
10-12-07, 08:42 PM
I'm starting to wonder if I'm reading the same comics as other people. According to some here, Buffy had perfect information on what Faith was doing, it was only the fact that Giles was working with Faith that upset her, and the events preceding her phonecall were by no means sufficient grounds to make her resentful when Giles fobbed her off by saying he didn't want her involved. I also wonder when logical extensions of previous behaviour became poor character development.

It's not that buffy had perfect information (though I must admit, when I first read it, I was confused as to how much she DID know), but rather that joss and co did not choose to give her sufficient information to deal with what was really going on with giles. They chose to focus on faith's and buffy's issues instead of giles' and buffys'. And regardless of the information she had, I find Buffy's reaction a bit out of character, at least, out of character for where she was at the end of the series. Yes, I can imagine she'd be willing the jump to the wrong conclusions about faith, and certainly things at gigi's were ambiguous in the last issue. But her manner on the phone with giles was really more that of a petulant child I didn't feel that I got any insight into their relationship, other than that it's a bit crap at the moment.

Exactly . Thats what I also find so frustrating about both the medium and how its being used. Stories take too long to unfold, and yet when they do they feel 'rushed' at the very end. Work that one out!
I was just discussing this elsewhere, and I think the problem isn't the comic medium, but rather the translation from television to comics. The expectations of the readers (and to some extent the writers as well) are based on a different process of storytelling, and the pacing doesn't quite match up. It's a bit similar to my issues with Serenity, actually (that the movie felt like a entire season of television condensed into a feature length film).

I now feel like I have to say something more specific about how I LIKE the comics - especially the medium itself - and I think my favorite bit is how it really works for some of the characters. Faith in particular came out SO well in this issue. The voiceovers, the flashbacks - it was very, very well done and in character. That's probably why I get so disappointed with other parts of the comics - because some parts are so excellent.

Wolfie Gilmore
10-12-07, 10:01 PM
Actually this seems to be more a case of anger that Giles has deemed something sufficiently important to drag Faith into it and hadn't even bothered to let her know about it. There was no way she could possibly have known what Faith was trying to do, so there's no reason for her to be angry about that.



Given the information she had, she can't know the full story. But I was talking about the poor choice of focus from the writers, not from the characters so much.


I wanted to see how she'd react if she DID have the full story - how she'd react to the idea that Giles was hiring one slayer to murder another, without her say-so. For the issue to be dealt with as much connected to her power, the nature of their mission, as to her relationship with Faith. It felt a bit cheap having her snatched away from the gigi scenario before she could find out what was going on, because thinking Faith's evil worked as a fun gag in season 7 (the Spike/Faith fight where both thought the other was evil) but here I expected something more nuanced. What does it mean to Buffy that the rules have changed so much that wetworks are part of the mission for some of "her" people...and is Giles "her" people any more, or has he become "them". Though also....


Why bring things back to old faith and buffy relations when there are NEW buffy/faith relations and NEW buffy/giles relations to explore?

Yes! That's not an answer to the question why, obviously...I just mean, yes to the notion that new is more interesting than old in this particular context. With so much unresolved in terms of Buffy and Giles's relationship after season 7, plus the fact that he's doing something that's not been done in a scooby-sanctioned way before (murder a human) without telling Buffy about it - that's the mess I want untangled, from Buffy's perspective. I felt that the Faith-focus of her anger was a well-worn groove and a distraction from the really meaty stuff that's all been bubbling for so long with Giles.




I think that's my overall gripe with the comics. I like them, I do; I'm not a big comics reader though my girlfriend's been getting me more into them (:)) but I don't mind the medium.

Interested to know what you think of Fables in this context. Do you feel you'd enjoy it even MORE if it was in another medium? You said something about the issue with Buffy comics being one of translation, care to expand? And yes, I know you should be working, but, ha, I distract you with my monkey pants. Or discussion of narrative media...


What bothers me is the way we are sometimes getting really superficial character interactions because of the constraints of the medium.

Perhaps not so much the medium as the way that medium is packaged and sold? As in, if they did bi-monthly comics, each that bit longer, I think some of these pacing issues would work out - trying to pack too much action into each issue can leave things feeling rushed, or not spending enough time on character moments. Though, I feel that's something they're getting right some of the time, but failing others (as in the Buffy/Giles discussion...which I feel may not have felt off if it had been longer, cos then perhaps it wouldn't have just been "You're working with HER!" but "You're working with HER" AND " You're working with HER...on MURDER!"


It felt to me in this issue that there simply wasn't room to go into buffy's and giles' issues (especially with all those pages of fighting!! ;)). Maybe this makes sense when we consider that it was faith's run...but still frustrating and disappointing.

Just thought what might have been interesting (though perhaps frustrating? But just a thought) is if we'd had the Buffy/Giles conflict from an "off screen" Faith point of view. As in we only hear snatches of their conversation, and it's all filtered through Faith's interpretation. But, something so big as a Buffy/Giles confrontation deserves its full weight imo, so maybe not...that's the trouble, isn't it? When you touch on such big issues and relationships, you need a LOT of space to really do them justice.

Wolfie Gilmore
10-12-07, 10:05 PM
It's not that buffy had perfect information (though I must admit, when I first read it, I was confused as to how much she DID know), but rather that joss and co did not choose to give her sufficient information to deal with what was really going on with giles.

Yes - it's as much about how they choose to portray Buffy, the version of Buffy they choose to show, as how Buffy herself reacts. Because, well, there is no Buffy herself, there's just Buffy in te light they choose to show her in. And, rather like a lab rat with much better hair, she can only react to the conditions she's put in. Though I feel that even given those conditions, they could have written her reaction better.





I was just discussing this elsewhere, and I think the problem isn't the comic medium, but rather the translation from television to comics.

Ooops, just posted while you were posting, putting your words in your mouth. It's the translation from live speech to forum!

Wolfie Gilmore
10-12-07, 10:09 PM
For purposes of my sibling analysis, change Faith's name to Fred Claus :)

Is that Santa's naughty big brother?


And, just to say sorry, I missed this post in all the flurry of other posts...




You should have told me about this mission and Faith's involvement. You didn't. You have respect for me, or the job I perform."

Would that serve?

Now, that just has to be written up into a fanfic :D

I wonder about her echoing his actual words...do you think it's just too nasty? Or just nasty enough? I can't quite judge.

KingofCretins
10-12-07, 10:12 PM
Fred Claus is Vince Vaughn in the so-titled movie about Santa's disappointing big brother, yes :)

I think that quoting it back to him would be just nasty enough, actually. I think, especially if we want to get them to be not on speaking terms, is that he gets that call while Faith's back at the Savidge Estate tending to Genevieve, and Buffy giving that little speech ends with a *click*.

Wolfie Gilmore
10-12-07, 10:16 PM
Fred Claus is Vince Vaughn in the so-titled movie about Santa's disappointing big brother, yes :)

I think that quoting it back to him would be just nasty enough, actually. I think, especially if we want to get them to be not on speaking terms, is that he gets that call while Faith's back at the Savidge Estate tending to Genevieve, and Buffy giving that little speech ends with a *click*.

J.N.E? Like Just Gay Enough. :D

Or...we could fanwank that Buffy and Giles had another conversation. Hmm...I'm wondering if it would work to do a missing scene from that imagining that Buffy and Giles had a further conversation before Giles talks to Faith the next morning...showing her reaction not only to him working with Faith, but to the whole murder thing....which could tie into him saying that stuff to Faith about being a team together, of people who can do the things that others can't...showing that his divide with Buffy is as much an ideological one as a personal one.

Cos that's what I'm interested in. And...what happens on the page, ah, that can always be supplemented by the ideal version of the story in one's head (that could never work out quite as well when you actually write it down). Give me the Form of the Buffy, not the shadow puppets in the cave... ;) (sorry, don't put your pen down brian, i'm kidding, kidding!)

But I am wondering if while writing this story, BKV was also thinking...crap, I should have included x y and z...strikes me as the sort of story where you would think that.

KingofCretins
10-12-07, 10:23 PM
I'm sure he probably already wishes he could release a director's cut, just to add more awesome to the existing awesome.

But, yeah, that actually plays, that Giles could have actually talked to Buffy again off-screen and realized that they... just aren't on the same page in this whole war-fighting business. Really, they've known if for years, they've known since Glory.



BUFFY
I don't want to hear it --


GILES
I understand that --


BUFFY
No you don't understand! We're not
talking about this!


GILES
(standing)
Yes we bloody well are!

Ooh. Giles yelled at Buffy.



GILES (cont'd)
If Glory begins the ritual... If we
can't stop her ...


BUFFY
Say it. Come on, we're bloody well
talking about this, tell me to kill my sister!


GILES
(quietly)
She's not your sister.

There *is* an ethical gap between them, and that's okay. People tend to develop those.

litzie
10-12-07, 11:29 PM
There *is* an ethical gap between them, and that's okay. People tend to develop those.
There is, and it was really never fully discussed. Not in season 5, not in season 7...and again, not here. I REALLY hope they discuss it. There are SO many things that they've never worked through (one very realistic bit of the father-daughteryness of them...), I want to see them! As much as I loved Buffy on television for its plots and its humor and its metaphors...I watched it for the characters. So far, sometimes that has worked in the comics (like with faith in this run, for me) and sometimes it just hasn't seemed to.


Interested to know what you think of Fables in this context. Do you feel you'd enjoy it even MORE if it was in another medium? You said something about the issue with Buffy comics being one of translation, care to expand?
I don't know, actually...I can't imagine Fables in another medium...maybe as a movie because there have been so many comic to movie conversions lately? But honestly, I think Fables remain my favorite comics and maybe that's because of how centered in the medium I see them?
and yes. I should be working. but your monkey pants are freaking distracting!

Weredog
11-12-07, 01:31 AM
"I won't remind you that the fate of the world often rests with the Slayer, what would be the point? Nor shall I remind you that you have jeopardized my life and the lives of everyone else here by concealing this situation from us. But sadly I must remind you that Faith and I spent a long time rebuilding some kind of trust, and so had you and I, and that your secrecy has ruined that in both cases.

You should have told me about this mission and Faith's involvement. You didn't. You have no respect for me, or the job I perform."

Would that serve?

Hmm, interesting call-back although I don't think it necessarily fits with what happened in "No Future for You". Giles never concealed the situation from anybody. He very much approached Faith, as opposed to Buffy who literally concealed Angel's return from everyone in season 3. Also as far as we know, Giles never knew Gigi's evil scheme was actually to kill Buffy. Although, I suppose one can counter that by supporting Faith's belief that Giles sent her to "save his golden girl$," however I choose to believe otherwise. I believe Giles heard from the underground that Gigi was trouble, period. Therefore, I wouldn't find it fair for Buffy to accuse Giles of jeopardizing the lives of everyone -- he tried to stop Gigi from jeopardizing.

KingofCretins
11-12-07, 02:10 AM
Hmm, interesting call-back although I don't think it necessarily fits with what happened in "No Future for You". Giles never concealed the situation from anybody. He very much approached Faith, as opposed to Buffy who literally concealed Angel's return from everyone in season 3. Also as far as we know, Giles never knew Gigi's evil scheme was actually to kill Buffy. Although, I suppose one can counter that by supporting Faith's belief that Giles sent her to "save his golden girl$," however I choose to believe otherwise. I believe Giles heard from the underground that Gigi was trouble, period. Therefore, I wouldn't find it fair for Buffy to accuse Giles of jeopardizing the lives of everyone -- he tried to stop Gigi from jeopardizing.

Between Season 7 of Buffy and... well, something illuminating that happened in Angel 5.11 "Damage"... as well as "The Long Way Home" and "The Chain", I don't think there's any mistaking that Buffy is *the* last word on everything that goes down with the Slayers and other participating Watchers and whitehats in her organization. She's Lady Shiva. She's Don Corleone. *That includes Giles*. He chose that the day he got back to Sunnydale in "Bring on the Night", when he told Buffy it all depended on her and that she was the plan.

Anything that he gets up to that affects her or the lives of any Slayer or asset associated with Buffy's organization is her business by definition. That includes missions to murder rogue Slayers that may be bringing about the end of the world. It really doesn't have anything to do with it being an assassination attempt on Buffy, although that just makes it *more* obvious that he was obligated to bring the BHC in the loop.

It's worth looking back now and noting that the whole end of the world threat? Probably BS and ever was -- false signs and portents arranged for by Twilight to kickstart his plan to get supernatural pieces pushing each other of the board.

If Giles had done what he was supposed to -- gone to the BHC to advise and frankly, get *permission* to go on this little adventure, not only might they have sussed out what the real level of danger was, to whom, and taken steps to prevent it that might have saved Genevieve's life (who I consider a victim in this in many ways), they might have avoided a lot of personal harm to relationships between Buffy and Giles, Buffy and Faith, and maybe been able to capture or flip Roden to get information out of him.

Weredog
11-12-07, 02:21 AM
Hmm, interesting. You've definitely brought some good points.
So do you have a theory as to why Giles approached Faith and not Buffy?

[PS. What does "BHC" stand for? "Big Honkin' Castle"? Where does that acronym come from?]

KingofCretins
11-12-07, 02:29 AM
It does stand for Big Honkin' Castle, which is itself a lift from "Buffy vs. Dracula". I can honestly take the credit for coining it myself as the nickname of the Castle von Buffystein. I work very hard to make sure it sticks, and it appears to have done so in many forums :)

I think Giles approached Faith for all the reasons he said -- that Faith was the one who would be able to carry out the wetworks approach to the problem, that he didn't want to put Buffy into that situation, and probably other reasons, like... not wanting to have argument number 44,000 about the ethics of pragmatic murder. Especially if, as he ought after "Lies My Parents Told Me", he realizes that *he will lose* that argument when Buffy pulls rank. I really think he just figured he could pull this off without her knowing, Faith gets to retire (so therefore isn't in a position to accidentally narc on him), the world is saved, and so is Buffy from having to kill anyone.

Maggie
11-12-07, 03:08 AM
See, I'm just not comfortable assuming we know why he did what he did, and using those assumptions to condemn him. And even if those are the reasons, we deserve more explanation about why he's still acting this way even after all the events of season 7. Also, we didn't get the full story of why he went to Faith -- he started to say but got cut off. Sort of the same technique as when Dawn was almost going to explain getting supersized. So I take both as a promise that an explanation will be forthcoming. Until then, I remain agnostic about how we should view Giles, much less how Buffy should deal with him.

Nostalgia
11-12-07, 05:19 AM
Okay...


Originally Posted by sueworld
I found her to be a hideous caraciture. Her dialog was on the whole abysmal and I just found it a relief when she was dispatched I'm afraid.

I'm amazed that anyone was meant to feel any sympathy for her at all.

Cheers! We finally have agreed on something. :roll:

I absolutely 100 percent agree.. I don't really think Gigi was made to be someone we were to empathize for.. and frankly, I am very surprised to the people that have. I know personally I have a kind heart, and we've seen the conversion possible as Wolfie stated.. but Faith was a much more troubled person than Gigi was.. and a much more vulnerable person as well. Gigi, claiming she has more wits than everyone she knows (she seems like a pretty educated girl personally), she had to have known that there was more to it.. some kind of personal reason towards her actions. She wanted power, authority, and control.. something clearly demonstrated in evil characters.. Faith was the troubled slayer.. who could only find understanding and friendship in the enemy. It's a completely different sitation, and honestly I don't know any comparisons you can make to Faith other than similar music tastes, cigarettes, and enjoying being bad.. petty things.

Originally Posted by Wolfie Gilmore

I wanted to see how she'd react if she DID have the full story - how she'd react to the idea that Giles was hiring one slayer to murder another, without her say-so. For the issue to be dealt with as much connected to her power, the nature of their mission, as to her relationship with Faith. It felt a bit cheap having her snatched away from the gigi scenario before she could find out what was going on, because thinking Faith's evil worked as a fun gag in season 7 (the Spike/Faith fight where both thought the other was evil) but here I expected something more nuanced. What does it mean to Buffy that the rules have changed so much that wetworks are part of the mission for some of "her" people...and is Giles "her" people any more, or has he become "them". Though also....


Hmm.. you really would expect Buffy to be more upset about Giles making "on the outside look" shaky decisions more than betraying her by choosing Faith over her? Again, frankly I am very surprised to the misunderstanding to the tension between Faith and Buffy.. because the pool scene had a lot more significance than comic relief. Remember Buffy talking with Spike? Spike wanting to beat the living crap out of her and Buffy approving it? More importantly, Remember when Faith took her spot and Buffy's speech about how she's "loving this" and that she's a murderer? Buffy tried to accept Faith, but The First made a good point that she still hasn't been able to enjoy her as a friend. They had some slayer connection when Faith got hurt, so I guess it's sort of confusing to see Buffy jump the gun so quickly.. but I think Anon makes a good point of post-"What the hell is going on?" anger. Buffy clearly settles down after realizing Faith was yelling at herself.. but there will always be tension.. even with the friendliness in Chosen, Faith will always have her guard up as well with Buffy. It's yet to be demonstrated that they have reached a complete friendship yet.

Back to the Buffy/Giles relationship though.. I can't figure out why the shocker than Buffy is so hurt by Giles' decision.. this is the person that she looked for more support from more than anyone. Everyone knows Hank wasn't the father figure, so losing your "dad" would especially hurt... and I think Buffy felt that they were in a good relationship since Chosen.. obviously not.

I'm not sure if I buy Giles' choosing Faith to do the dirty work as the only reason he didn't contact Buffy. If this was the case, he'd at least form her in on what was going on.. In fact when on the phone, he seems more concerned with Faith's well being than herself. There's definitely a bitterness for Buffy that still exists.. and I don't know if that's because there's something we don't know or something we do know.

Anon
11-12-07, 07:49 AM
It's not that buffy had perfect information (though I must admit, when I first read it, I was confused as to how much she DID know), but rather that joss and co did not choose to give her sufficient information to deal with what was really going on with giles. They chose to focus on faith's and buffy's issues instead of giles' and buffys'. And regardless of the information she had, I find Buffy's reaction a bit out of character, at least, out of character for where she was at the end of the series. Yes, I can imagine she'd be willing the jump to the wrong conclusions about faith, and certainly things at gigi's were ambiguous in the last issue. But her manner on the phone with giles was really more that of a petulant child I didn't feel that I got any insight into their relationship, other than that it's a bit crap at the moment.Well, I don't think that much changed from the end of Chosen. She and Giles may have grown apart or become closer, but all indication is that things were pretty much the same. Giles was clearly still doing things behind her back and trying to keep her away from unpleasant situations.

As for her manner on the phone, I think 'petulant' is also being unfair. She was angry that Giles had considered something important enough to involve Faith but hadn't bothered to inform her, and she was really angry that after everything that had happened to her, he tried to tell her that it was none of her concern and that she shouldn't be involved. This wasn't unreasonable given the circumstances. Faith's dubious status may also have been a factor that contributed to her being upset.


I was just discussing this elsewhere, and I think the problem isn't the comic medium, but rather the translation from television to comics. The expectations of the readers (and to some extent the writers as well) are based on a different process of storytelling, and the pacing doesn't quite match up. It's a bit similar to my issues with Serenity, actually (that the movie felt like a entire season of television condensed into a feature length film).I think I said elsewhere that one of the problems the comics seemed to have was unrealistic expectations.



I found her to be a hideous caraciture. Her dialog was on the whole abysmal and I just found it a relief when she was dispatched I'm afraid.

I'm amazed that anyone was meant to feel any sympathy for her at all.Yes. Definitely. Admittedly she was portrayed as something of a victim of circumstance, but her attitude still seems implausibly outdated.


See, I'm just not comfortable assuming we know why he did what he did, and using those assumptions to condemn him. And even if those are the reasons, we deserve more explanation about why he's still acting this way even after all the events of season 7. Also, we didn't get the full story of why he went to Faith -- he started to say but got cut off. Sort of the same technique as when Dawn was almost going to explain getting supersized. So I take both as a promise that an explanation will be forthcoming. Until then, I remain agnostic about how we should view Giles, much less how Buffy should deal with him.I think we know Giles well enough to understand some of his motives. I'm not sure I require an explanation as to why he's still acting this way after the events of season seven, as I'm not sure I would have expected any of this to have changed. As for condemning him, how do you expect Buffy to work with him if he's going to treat her like that?

There are clearly quite a few things about the relationship between Giles, Buffy and Faith that got buried, but never really went away and this incident brought them to the surface.

litzie
11-12-07, 10:05 AM
Well, I don't think that much changed from the end of Chosen. She and Giles may have grown apart or become closer, but all indication is that things were pretty much the same. Giles was clearly still doing things behind her back and trying to keep her away from unpleasant situations.
I'm fine with things being the same as they were in Chosen, as long as we get some resolution to the issues that were still simmering below the surface of that enigmatic smile moment.

I think I said elsewhere that one of the problems the comics seemed to have was unrealistic expectations.
Too bad our elsewheres weren't the same elsewheres, as mine was with my girlfriend on the phone...but I definitely agree.

Hmm.. you really would expect Buffy to be more upset about Giles making "on the outside look" shaky decisions more than betraying her by choosing Faith over her? Again, frankly I am very surprised to the misunderstanding to the tension between Faith and Buffy.. because the pool scene had a lot more significance than comic relief. Remember Buffy talking with Spike? Spike wanting to beat the living crap out of her and Buffy approving it? More importantly, Remember when Faith took her spot and Buffy's speech about how she's "loving this" and that she's a murderer? Buffy tried to accept Faith, but The First made a good point that she still hasn't been able to enjoy her as a friend. They had some slayer connection when Faith got hurt, so I guess it's sort of confusing to see Buffy jump the gun so quickly.. but I think Anon makes a good point of post-"What the hell is going on?" anger. Buffy clearly settles down after realizing Faith was yelling at herself.. but there will always be tension.. even with the friendliness in Chosen, Faith will always have her guard up as well with Buffy. It's yet to be demonstrated that they have reached a complete friendship yet.
Hmm, perhaps I'm a bit surprised you're surprised? I agree that there will always be tension between those two, and that we've yet to see a moment of complete friendship (the hot chicks with superpowers line notwithstanding). I think the pool scene was incredibly significant - and to me THAT was absolutely interesting in terms of character development etc. I believe buffy would be willing to jump to conclusions regarding faith, and in that instance she didn't even have to jump that far. But it did seem that at the end of the pool scene she seemed to be realizing that not only was faith on her side but WAY f'd up. So why, then, when she speaks to Giles on the phone, is she first focusing on the fact that he's working with Faith? She doesn't get to the 'what the hell is going on' anger until the end of the call.

The pool scene I felt we were seeing from Faith's perspective to a certain extent, and I really loved it. The phone call/buffy's reaction...was basically perspective-less, and I think that's part of why I remain confused by it, character-wise.

Wolfie Gilmore
11-12-07, 10:06 AM
Back to the Buffy/Giles relationship though.. I can't figure out why the shocker than Buffy is so hurt by Giles' decision.. this is the person that she looked for more support from more than anyone. Everyone knows Hank wasn't the father figure, so losing your "dad" would especially hurt... and I think Buffy felt that they were in a good relationship since Chosen.. obviously not.


Just quickly - will come back to other stuff...the issue isn't that people don't think that Buffy would be hurt by what Giles did. My problem, at least, with the route they took was that it focussed the split entirely on Faith and Giles working together, not WHAT they were working on even a little. I want to see how the personal and the ideolgical/mission stuff blend. She's not just Buffy-the-daughter-figure, she's Buffy, Lord of the Slayers too! Lady of the Slayers? Queen of the slayers? Generalissimo Buffy?

Anway, I see them as taking the easy narrative (and dialogue) Buffy vs Faith route rather than what would be, imo, the more interesting route: Buffy being pissed at Giles for the mission, the murder, the secrecy, and Faith being the bad icing on teh stinky cake.

I never saw Giles as a simple father figure to Buffy. That's part of their relationship, but there's much more to it than that - he's been her teacher, she's his leader...or at least I think she assumed she was until now...I wanted it to deal with the complexities of all that. In the end I felt we got more of a "you like Faith better than me, wah" reaction! Ok, not that bad.

I don't think it was awful, I just expect the very very best from these comics. As someone said, perhaps expecting too much, but still! I demand the finest comics known to humanity, I want them here, and I want them now!

EDIT: more...





I don't know, actually...I can't imagine Fables in another medium...maybe as a movie because there have been so many comic to movie conversions lately? But honestly, I think Fables remain my favorite comics and maybe that's because of how centered in the medium I see them?
and yes. I should be working. but your monkey pants are freaking distracting!

It is interesting to think about medium in terms of how you first saw something. If you enjoy something in one medium, you might lose some of the particular things you enjoyed in that medium. If they turned some of my favourite comics into TV shows, they might work out nicely…but they might lose a lot too. Say the Ballad of Halo Jones (published in 2000AD). Some of the joy of that was in the dynamism of the artwork, the moments in each panel that conveyed so much – such as (and maybe I’m totally talking to myself here but, anyway) the moment Toby bursts out of the furnace, ready to kill…

I’m curious to see how Preacher works out. That’s one I’m hopeful for in terms of transition. So many comic to movie transitions don’t work, and I think part of that is because comics are mostly episodic or long forms – try to cut them down and you have the same issue you do when turning a tv show into a film (as with Litzie’s comments on serenity). But Preacher as a TV show…the transition could work, I’m fairly open to that. In fact, I’m pretty damn excited, because it’s HBO.

I’m also off topic so, returning there…



I believe Giles heard from the underground that Gigi was trouble, period. Therefore, I wouldn't find it fair for Buffy to accuse Giles of jeopardizing the lives of everyone -- he tried to stop Gigi from jeopardizing.

Going back to a discussion that was had in the earlier issues of this arc, I have yet to see any kind of justification of Giles’s actions in choosing to assassinate Gigi. If he just thought Gigi was “trouble” and needed to be offed because of that, I’m appalled. The same could go for so many people, is he going to go around killing everyone who might pose a threat in the future? In which case, Buffy needs to kick every inch of his vigilante ass! (now I’m thinking of Giles as Batman. This both excites and disturbs!)

Even if he had what goes for reliable “proof” in prophetic circles (and I’m not sure such a thing exists, in the Buffyverse, given how many prophecies have been overturned or proved false) that Gigi was going to do the world great harm, I’m still not feeling much sympathy for him. Gigi could have been stopped by other means. Buffy and co have the means to do that – they have magicians who could contain her, they have a sodding great castle that could double as a natty prison if they needed.

The Ben situation was different, because it wasn’t a matter of prophecy, it was the nature of Ben/Glory that made his actions possibly justifiable. As in, Giles didn’t kill Ben/Glory because someone told him that Glory would come back because they saw it in a vision. He did it because of the nature of Ben/Glory, the fact that Glory could escape at any moment and they’d have no other way of containing her. Though to be honest, I still haven’t made up my mind about that, whether Giles did the right thing. It’s a grey area for me…while killing Gigi is down under the “bad” column for me until we find out more about why Giles did it. I’d need some damn strong proof that Gigi was about to bring about an apocalypse or something before it seemed an ok thing to do.

That doesn’t mean I think Giles is evil. I just think that was a seriously dodgy thing to do, even if he was doing it for what he considered to be good motives. He’s got his own conception of “the mission”, and it’s one I am not liking the sound of…well, I am, in that I think it creates excellent story potential, but I hope Buffy takes him to task on his rogue-ishness (in the sense of rogue slayer, not cad…he’s a snake, not a dog, in Faith’s terms ;)) and not just on his involvement with Faith in general.

Anon
11-12-07, 01:46 PM
Just quickly - will come back to other stuff...the issue isn't that people don't think that Buffy would be hurt by what Giles did. My problem, at least, with the route they took was that it focussed the split entirely on Faith and Giles working together, not WHAT they were working on even a little. I want to see how the personal and the ideolgical/mission stuff blend. She's not just Buffy-the-daughter-figure, she's Buffy, Lord of the Slayers too! Lady of the Slayers? Queen of the slayers? Generalissimo Buffy?

Anway, I see them as taking the easy narrative (and dialogue) Buffy vs Faith route rather than what would be, imo, the more interesting route: Buffy being pissed at Giles for the mission, the murder, the secrecy, and Faith being the bad icing on teh stinky cake.

I never saw Giles as a simple father figure to Buffy. That's part of their relationship, but there's much more to it than that - he's been her teacher, she's his leader...or at least I think she assumed she was until now...I wanted it to deal with the complexities of all that. In the end I felt we got more of a "you like Faith better than me, wah" reaction! Ok, not that bad.I think it was more of a "How dare you go behind my back... with Faith as your accomplice." reaction, personally. The other route might have been more interesting, but I doubt it would have led to the same places. I have no doubt that the other route will be dealt with in time, but they have more to do with this first.

As for the thing about not exploring new relationships between characters, I think the answer is that the old issues that were around at the end of season 7 still existed and had an impact. By getting these out in the open, and having a chance for them to be dealt with properly, opportunities for new Buffy/Faith and Buffy/Giles relationships may emerge later on.

Nostalgia
12-12-07, 12:13 AM
Going back to a discussion that was had in the earlier issues of this arc, I have yet to see any kind of justification of Giles’s actions in choosing to assassinate Gigi. If he just thought Gigi was “trouble” and needed to be offed because of that, I’m appalled. The same could go for so many people, is he going to go around killing everyone who might pose a threat in the future? In which case, Buffy needs to kick every inch of his vigilante ass! (now I’m thinking of Giles as Batman. This both excites and disturbs!)

Even if he had what goes for reliable “proof” in prophetic circles (and I’m not sure such a thing exists, in the Buffyverse, given how many prophecies have been overturned or proved false) that Gigi was going to do the world great harm, I’m still not feeling much sympathy for him. Gigi could have been stopped by other means. Buffy and co have the means to do that – they have magicians who could contain her, they have a sodding great castle that could double as a natty prison if they needed.

The Ben situation was different, because it wasn’t a matter of prophecy, it was the nature of Ben/Glory that made his actions possibly justifiable. As in, Giles didn’t kill Ben/Glory because someone told him that Glory would come back because they saw it in a vision. He did it because of the nature of Ben/Glory, the fact that Glory could escape at any moment and they’d have no other way of containing her. Though to be honest, I still haven’t made up my mind about that, whether Giles did the right thing. It’s a grey area for me…while killing Gigi is down under the “bad” column for me until we find out more about why Giles did it. I’d need some damn strong proof that Gigi was about to bring about an apocalypse or something before it seemed an ok thing to do.

That doesn’t mean I think Giles is evil. I just think that was a seriously dodgy thing to do, even if he was doing it for what he considered to be good motives. He’s got his own conception of “the mission”, and it’s one I am not liking the sound of…well, I am, in that I think it creates excellent story potential, but I hope Buffy takes him to task on his rogue-ishness (in the sense of rogue slayer, not cad…he’s a snake, not a dog, in Faith’s terms ;)) and not just on his involvement with Faith in general.

I am on such a fence in terms of Giles.. I want to expect him to turn evil (what is the point of the second issue?).. and yet we see him very comfortable with every character.. demonstrating pity with killing, and being the soft minor guy we've always grown to love. I am questioning his motives more than his actions right now.

I too don't want to get off topic, but what I think he did with Ben/Glory was the wrong this to do. You can't kill someone to protect a chance of something happening. I'm sure Buffy would have encountered Glory again.. but she was pretty beat up, and there were other ways to killing her than taking a human life.

Weredog
12-12-07, 04:10 AM
I am on such a fence in terms of Giles.. I want to expect him to turn evil (what is the point of the second issue?)

What is the point? The point is because he is a secondary character in the arc, just as Xander and Dawn were in issues 2 and 4.
No?

Nostalgia
12-12-07, 04:36 AM
What is the point? The point is because he is a secondary character in the arc, just as Xander and Dawn were in issues 2 and 4.
No?

Sorry.. I should put cover and been more specific. I meant what is the meaning of his face on the second issue ? He seems to be spinning some devious plan.. but it never played out that way.

vampmogs
12-12-07, 04:40 AM
Sorry.. I should put cover and been more specific. I meant what is the meaning of his face on the second issue ? He seems to be spinning some devious plan.. but it never played out that way.

I guess it is open to interpretation of the image. Personally, when I look at that image I see Giles looking gavely concerned at everything that has happened and this could be a representation of his feelings after Faith chucks away the earpeice in that episode and leaves Giles wondering what the hell is going on.

Weredog
12-12-07, 10:53 PM
I thought Giles looked like its reference image (http://forevergeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/anthonyhead.jpg). :p
But looking at the cover right now, I suppose I do see a little bit of a dubious glare. I hope Giles gets his own arc soon. I mean, when was the last time Giles had his own episode? "A New Man"?

litzie
13-12-07, 07:06 AM
But looking at the cover right now, I suppose I do see a little bit of a dubious glare. I hope Giles gets his own arc soon. I mean, when was the last time Giles had his own episode? "A New Man"?
Dude. A Giles arc would be teh awesome. What if he had flashbacks too, but to his early bad ripper days? How fun would that be? And I'd love to see some giles voice over bubbles...

I do hope they make his slightly sketchy behavior pay off better than the 'your upset cuz I'm NOT touching young girls? line, which...not worth it, in my book

alexa
17-12-07, 07:27 AM
Haven't read everyones post yet. Finally got this today :D Got the cool variant cover, Jo one coming soon.
Wasn't actually that impressed.. prolly my least favourite issue from the Faith arc. It was good, but I suppose I was just really bothered by the split between Buffy and Giles.. and even Buffy and Faith. I was hoping there would be a reconciliation of some kind, but we're just back to where we were and now Giles is distancing himself from Buffy. I can sort of understand why.. if he thinks the darker sides of the job need to be done, and would rather not have Buffy killing humans? Or he's just hiding his own dark self from her. Maybe something happened between now and Chosen... either way I don't like being annoyed at Giles.
Twilight looks interesting, the storyline resembles season 4s a little. The whole magic vs military kinda thing. Still don't quite understand his motives.. he doesn't look too normal himself.

Owh and I hope the mole is Renee! Free up for some Bander action ;)

And I forgot to mention that I liked how Faith was projecting on Gigi during their fight. When she is talking about Gigi's relationship with Roden, she's expressing her own feelings about her and the Mayor. 'Maybe he does, maybe he don't' (Really care about her) 'You know you haven't done anything to deserve it.'

Sosa lola
17-12-07, 11:51 AM
I loved this one mostly for the conflict between Buffy and Giles :) I'm glad they continued that storyline, 'cause if you think "Do you like my plan?" "I think it's fantastic." is Buffy and Giles being okay again, then it's way too boring and easy. A great relationship between Buffy/Giles must have a better reconciliation in my book.

I think my least fave issue from the Faith arc is #7.

vampmogs
17-12-07, 12:03 PM
I loved this one mostly for the conflict between Buffy and Giles :) I'm glad they continued that storyline, 'cause if you think "Do you like my plan?" "I think it's fantastic." is Buffy and Giles being okay again, then it's way too boring and easy. A great relationship between Buffy/Giles must have a better reconciliation in my book.

I think my least fave issue from the Faith arc is #7.

I'd make a wager that the second issue of the new arc will be the weakest again. As it was in 'No Future For You' and IMO 'The Long Way Home.' The Buffy and Giles conflict was brilliant, I love Jeanty's panel of Buffy as Giles tells her she doesn't want to be a part of it, that look on her face as she holds the phone barley to her ear. It is heartbreaking.

I agree it'd have been far too simple to say the relationship was all dandy again because of that one line, a lot of people felt it wasn't good enough and it wasn't. Only now we get it to be explored further so I can live with it being a satisfactory and temporary resoultion to their issues for a season finale at least.

alexa
18-12-07, 02:09 AM
She was telling Giles that Faith just tried to kill her, and she obviously wants to know what's going on. Then he just gives her the cold shoulder. I get that he doesn't have time to explain everything then and there, but he just doesn't want anything to do with her after either .. from what I saw.
I know conflict is the spice of a good story, but we hardly ever get Buffy/Giles conflict that lasts for more than an episode, it makes me sad. :p

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 02:18 AM
It's sad how things stand between them, but it's pretty believable. In fact, it's almost overdue with regard to the Buffyverse. He is a father figure after all, and if Dads are Bad (one of the Buffyverse's unofficial rules, it would seem), then Dad-like is Bad-like.

vampmogs
18-12-07, 08:28 AM
I don't believe Giles is being portrayed as bad at all, just a conflict with Buffy. There is no ultimatum there. It isn't as black and white as saying if you agree with Buffy you're good if you don't, you're bad. Giles wants to go along with Faith and help other slayers.

litzie
18-12-07, 11:07 AM
I don't believe Giles is being portrayed as bad at all, just a conflict with Buffy. There is no ultimatum there. It isn't as black and white as saying if you agree with Buffy you're good if you don't, you're bad. Giles wants to go along with Faith and help other slayers.
I don't think Giles is being portrayed as bad AS a father figure (at least...not yet. We know that he's not really choosing faith over buffy in that scene as it seems to her, but rather that faith's situation is more life threatening and he obviously has some ulterior motive going on with keeping Buffy out of it, even if that motive is protecting her...) but I think he is being portrayed as a bit...grey...in his morality. Hiring a hitman, hiring in fact FAITH as a hitman when obviously she's had some issues with this kind of thing in the past, choosing to off someone based on prophesy, when prophesy itself has been established as wholly unreliable in the Buffyverse, especially as the basis for taking violent action like, say, kidnapping your friend's child or, in this case, murdering a slayer.

I think Giles has always had slightly...more flexible morality than buffy has, and that hasn't always been portrayed as bad. When he kills ben, I think we as an audience tend to believe him that it had to be done. But he has also taken the wrong path in his attempts to protect Buffy, LMPTM being the biggest example, but also his departure in season six (which he obviously thought was the right thing to do, and on a more meta level was obviously necessary narratively, but character-wise was likely NOT the best thing for buffy), among others. This conflict has been building for a long time, and as long as joss does eventually give it significantly more attention, I'm glad he brought it up. Better than pretending things were fixed by that one line!

You know, it's funny, because I never felt like things were sufficiently fixed with ANYone at the end of season seven. I often compared it to season four, where I believed both the scoobie split and the scoobie reconciliation. In season seven, I don't find the split as believable (I mean, I believed they split, but their motivations were fuzzier), and the reconciliation even less so! But I haven't been bothered by that in terms of Buffy's relationships with Xander or Willow because we've actually seen them being normal with each other. That makes it work for me - whereas we have barely seen buffy and giles interacting at all!

Wolfie Gilmore
18-12-07, 09:14 PM
I don't think Giles is being portrayed as bad AS a father figure (at least...not yet. We know that he's not really choosing faith over buffy in that scene as it seems to her, but rather that faith's situation is more life threatening and he obviously has some ulterior motive going on with keeping Buffy out of it, even if that motive is protecting her...) but I think he is being portrayed as a bit...grey...in his morality.

As Faith says about the Mayor - he's a snake, but not a dog. :) As in, he's nice to "his" people, but has the potential to be bad(ass) in his dealings with the world. Though I don't forsee Giles turning into a giant snake any time soon.

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 09:25 PM
Only into the giant (trouser)snake he turned into already in 8.09? :)

Seriously, he may not mean to be a "bad father", but he's proving to be one seriously crappy subordinate. I want to see Buffy and Giles repair what has clearly never healed since "Lies My Parents Told Me", when it was seriously wounded.

Wolfie Gilmore
18-12-07, 09:34 PM
Only into the giant (trouser)snake he turned into already in 8.09? :)

Seriously, he may not mean to be a "bad father", but he's proving to be one seriously crappy subordinate.

I gues he's a bad father to one daughter and a good one to the other. Dude, he's totally prodigal sonning Buffy! (my gf was saying the other day how the prodigal son is her least fave parable because it seems so annoyingly unfair to people who are actually nice...in a nice guys finish last sort of way). Ok, the parable doesn't directly apply. Maybe he's the prodigal father, who's going to need some serious bigger personage from Buffy.

Hey, can I just say how funny it is re Dawn being big when you think about Buffy's advice in season 6 about hanging out with "someone that short". Apparently, kids today are no longer experimenting with shortness. :)



I want to see Buffy and Giles repair what has clearly never healed since "Lies My Parents Told Me", when it was seriously wounded.

I wonder if it's one of those things, like "hurting the fett"...that you can't come back from?

EDIT: Sorry, back to the subordinate issue. It is a very interesting relationship, now that Buffy is the official boss (well, not to the extent of being called boss, but certainly the leader of a more official secret organisation than she was originally) from being in a technically though not actually subordinate position to Giles before, but with all those familial/personal feelings mixed in. Makes for a seriously complex workplace relationship!

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 09:41 PM
I don't think Buffy is likely to be the one to reach out to Giles, right or wrong.


Apparently, kids today are no longer experimenting with shortness.

Riley got all the great lines sometimes -- go to guy for deadpan remarks about Buffyspeak. "Tonight, you have crude oil".


EDIT: Sorry, back to the subordinate issue. It is a very interesting relationship, now that Buffy is the official boss (well, not to the extent of being called boss, but certainly the leader of a more official secret organisation than she was originally) from being in a technically though not actually subordinate position to Giles before, but with all those familial/personal feelings mixed in.

Leadership, like 'couplehood', is basically an objective status. Buffy may resist or protest the idea, Xander may resist or protest that he's a *leader* now and not *just* the guy who can 'see' from the background, but those roles have been defined by events. Buffy's enemies have three times defined her as not only a leader, but a great and charismatic (and therefore dangerous) leader. Gen. Voll, Lady Genevieve, and Twilight all refer to her that way.

litzie
18-12-07, 09:59 PM
Leadership, like 'couplehood', is basically an objective status. Buffy may resist or protest the idea, Xander may resist or protest that he's a *leader* now and not *just* the guy who can 'see' from the background, but those roles have been defined by events. Buffy's enemies have three times defined her as not only a leader, but a great and charismatic (and therefore dangerous) leader. Gen. Voll, Lady Genevieve, and Twilight all refer to her that way.

That is a really valid point. It's interesting to go from enemies who underestimate her to enemies who...build her up a bit? Not that's she's not dangerous to them, but more...have they heard her speeches? I always thought it would have been funny if once in season seven we found out that one of her particularly annoying speechifying moments was the First trying to sow discord and boredom. :)

Dude, he's totally prodigal sonning Buffy! (my gf was saying the other day how the prodigal son is her least fave parable because it seems so annoyingly unfair to people who are actually nice...in a nice guys finish last sort of way). Ok, the parable doesn't directly apply.

Dude! it IS unfair! crappy first grade teachers who gave stars to the bad kids for just being normal when the good kids had to do something special, grumble grumble.

What? no! Me? Bitter? never!

But...actually, in some ways I do feel like the parable does apply in just the eensiest backward way. Giles is a bit of a prodigal...left buffy...was bad before he met her in a way that she's never been, actually. Ok, actually just stretching to make it fit. But there must be SOME parable, right?

Wolfie Gilmore
18-12-07, 10:10 PM
I don't think Buffy is likely to be the one to reach out to Giles, right or wrong.

No, I think it's down to him if it's going to happen. Unless someone "brokers" a n emotional deal for them? Or even sees it as tactically necessary for them to make up? That would be COLD. But interesting. Maybe a scene between Buffy and Xander where he tells her to make up with Giles, and she's all like "this itn' the time for you to be sentimental about how things used to be", and he's like, no, that's not what I mean...but, don't you think this feud with Giles is going to hurt the mission?

Though I think he may still have "sentimental" motives while saying that.



Riley got all the great lines sometimes -- go to guy for deadpan remarks about Buffyspeak. "Tonight, you have crude oil".

Well, Twilight can't be Riley then. His lines are mostly rubbish so far. At least, not big with the funny. I prefer the funny villains. Even the Master was a bit quippy sometimes. Reminded me a bit of Fagin (did anyone else just watch Oliver Twist on the Beeb?).




Leadership, like 'couplehood', is basically an objective status.

Well, you could argue that both rely on all parties involved consenting. Spoilers for quibbling. Because quibbling is the funnest...So, if one person thinks that someone is their girlfriend, while she thinks the boy's just a fckbuddy...the same goes with leaders to a degree. Someone can be a de facto leader and wield force-or-cash-backed power without being so in the eyes of the "led". EG if a "usperper" is on the throne while the "rightful king" isn't, and people still take their orders from the divinely rightful king. In Buffy's case, yes, she's the leader, and no one seems to be contesting this for the moment. But the leader of whom? The power structure and hierarchy is uncertain. Unlike most offices or armies, ther'es no flow chart of who reports to who it seems, there's a lot of ad-hoc stuff going on. And it's unclear exactly where Giles fits into all of this, or whether he views Buffy as his leader, his equal, or part of a completely different organisation.


Buffy may resist or protest the idea, Xander may resist or protest that he's a *leader* now and not *just* the guy who can 'see' from the background, but those roles have been defined by events.

I think the scoobies are going to take quite some time to catch up with events on this score. Buffy, trying to get used to everyone calling her Ma'am, Xander resisting any "sir" action. Interesting or random that the Mayor also resists formal titles from Faith....? I think random. But still, all grist to the mill.


Buffy's enemies have three times defined her as not only a leader, but a great and charismatic (and therefore dangerous) leader. Gen. Voll, Lady Genevieve, and Twilight all refer to her that way.

But, worth bearing in mind that in their case we're dealing with Buffy the myth, Buffy the bogeywoman - which Buffy's organisation is helping to promote (cf the Chain). Buffy is no longer trapped between slayer and just a girl. She's now got even more roles to play. Not only is she a hands-on, real-life leader, she's also a mythical figure who's famous not only with vampires in puffy shirts and dodgy accents who want to fck with her head (wll Drac be back, everyone's wondering...), but with many more evil types.

So, Buffy in the eyes of her enemies is not necessarily Buffy as she is. I'd say Buffy's role lies somewhere beyond this Chairman Buffy idea that the bad guys have of her own idea of herself (which resists titles and official notions of leadership, while still knowing they're relevant). I'm not sure she's quite twigged how much power she has, and I would definitely like to see that explored in the next issue in her stuff with Willow - two powerful women realising the implications of their power, what it means to have not just superpowers but real practical powe rin the world that affects not only the people around them and some abstract world that always needs saving, but chains of events that spread out in a map of little causes and effects that can snowball in all kinds of unexpected ways. The chain, in it's "butterfly causes storm" incarnation.


On the subject of the chain, but also something I'd been meaning to bring up since I read the comic but never quite found the time. There's one bit that confused me a bit, not sure if it's been discussed. Where Gigi says, "As soon as I've wrung the last drop [of blood] out of your kind, my nightmares are going to end". Is that supposed to be a big reveal, ie that she was always going to betray Faith because her mission wasn't actually to overthrow Buffy, but to kill all slayers? Or did I miss something in a previous issue where she told Faith that they'd both be spared but all the others needed to die?? It didn't have th feel of a reveal, but can't quite make sense of it otherwise.

Wolfie Gilmore
18-12-07, 10:27 PM
I always thought it would have been funny if once in season seven we found out that one of her particularly annoying speechifying moments was the First trying to sow discord and boredom. :)

Hehe, would have been good. Though I still think that jokes about the bad speeches don't make up for the badness of the speeches. Write better speeches, writers! Why not do it as an exercise while you're on the picket lines...?



Dude! it IS unfair! crappy first grade teachers who gave stars to the bad kids for just being normal when the good kids had to do something special, grumble grumble.

Verse true, chapter yup of the Good Kids Bible. :)



But...actually, in some ways I do feel like the parable does apply in just the eensiest backward way. Giles is a bit of a prodigal...left buffy...was bad before he met her in a way that she's never been, actually. Ok, actually just stretching to make it fit. But there must be SOME parable, right?

The lost sheep? Faith as the sheep, Giles risking the rest of his flock?

alexa
18-12-07, 11:54 PM
On the subject of the chain, but also something I'd been meaning to bring up since I read the comic but never quite found the time. There's one bit that confused me a bit, not sure if it's been discussed. Where Gigi says, "As soon as I've wrung the last drop [of blood] out of your kind, my nightmares are going to end". Is that supposed to be a big reveal, ie that she was always going to betray Faith because her mission wasn't actually to overthrow Buffy, but to kill all slayers? Or did I miss something in a previous issue where she told Faith that they'd both be spared but all the others needed to die?? It didn't have th feel of a reveal, but can't quite make sense of it otherwise.

Yeah I noticed that too. But it's like you never really know if Gigi knows what she's talking about because she was being used by Roden, who's also being used by Twilight... and what's up with that book? It tells them how to defeat Buffy?

Like your prodigal son analogy. It's pretty accurate in a way.
Although I didn't really see Giles in the boss type of position since like season 2.. and even since season 1 it's only been occasional when Buffy did what he said even if she felt differently (like when she punches out Giles to go face the Master).
Seems like he knows or is in a place now where he sees that killing humans (bad ones) is sometimes needed, and doesn't want Buffy to fall into that habit.

Ben: Need a ... a minute. She could've killed me.
Giles: No she couldn't. Never. And sooner or later Glory will re-emerge, and ... make Buffy pay for that mercy. And the world with her. Buffy even knows that... and still she couldn't take a human life.
Giles: She's a hero, you see. She's not like us.

But I don't see why Buffy wouldn't understand the need to help some slayers who aren't so emotionally well adjusted.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 12:08 AM
I don't know if even Xander has enough cache with Buffy to pull that off at this point. Willow might just need to 'port Giles to them.


Well, Twilight can't be Riley then. His lines are mostly rubbish so far. At least, not big with the funny. I prefer the funny villains. Even the Master was a bit quippy sometimes. Reminded me a bit of Fagin (did anyone else just watch Oliver Twist on the Beeb?).

I dig Twilight so far. Like I said, he reminds me of Bane and/or Ra's al Ghul, and that's... never a bad thing.


But, worth bearing in mind that in their case we're dealing with Buffy the myth, Buffy the bogeywoman - which Buffy's organisation is helping to promote (cf the Chain). Buffy is no longer trapped between slayer and just a girl. She's now got even more roles to play. Not only is she a hands-on, real-life leader, she's also a mythical figure who's famous not only with vampires in puffy shirts and dodgy accents who want to fck with her head (wll Drac be back, everyone's wondering...), but with many more evil types.

So, Buffy in the eyes of her enemies is not necessarily Buffy as she is. I'd say Buffy's role lies somewhere beyond this Chairman Buffy idea that the bad guys have of her own idea of herself (which resists titles and official notions of leadership, while still knowing they're relevant). I'm not sure she's quite twigged how much power she has, and I would definitely like to see that explored in the next issue

Buffy has been a mythic figure for quite some time. It's been a rare occasion since Season 2 for someone not to know exactly who she is, even down to ordinary people around Sunnydale (Warren knew, even). She even comments on it in "The Gift". I don't think the mythic image is something she's unfamiliar with, and is undoubtedly willing to make bank on.

I think that Buffy (and Xander's) resistance to those terms are *why* the bad guys are right about her (them). She had, at least to me, so far, rejected the "general Buffy" attitude that cost her so much in Season 7. I would bet that she doesn't have to fish for the name of any of the Slayers in the BHC, at least (50 or so, presumably), and my mental image of her attitude as she shifted into this role as being basically matriarchal.


Dude! it IS unfair! crappy first grade teachers who gave stars to the bad kids for just being normal when the good kids had to do something special, grumble grumble.

What? no! Me? Bitter? never!

But...actually, in some ways I do feel like the parable does apply in just the eensiest backward way. Giles is a bit of a prodigal...left buffy...was bad before he met her in a way that she's never been, actually. Ok, actually just stretching to make it fit. But there must be SOME parable, right?

The prodigal son is a parable of faith, is the thing. He is welcomed and celebrated and blessed because he "was dead and is alive again... was lost and is found." (Luke 15:32). It's the joy of him having been saved, not him merely behaving adequately vs. the more competent, successful son. So, while I'd resist turning Buffy into an all-out messianic figure, Giles "prodigal" moment would be coming back into the fold because he really believes in their mission and believes that Buffy really does know what she's doing. To have been lost, and be found.

Nostalgia
19-12-07, 04:56 AM
I definitely agree that Giles is just slowly pissing me off more and more. I think if he honestly was making all of these rude "but for her safety" decisions, he wouldn't be acting in suck a dick way about it.

I've stressed this before, but I'll say again that I tend to disagree with that Giles is still on the good side.. of things.. as someone pointed out, this seems to be more of a gray area for him. We haven't seen his entire motivations for things, and it's only been black and white (either scenes where he's being an ass, or being the genuine guy we love (TO FAITH OF ALL PEOPLE).

Why does he even care about Genevieve that much? Yes she was taking out the slayer line with her "father figure" Ronen, but was it honestly that dangerous as he proclaimed?? That he needed to have Faith to do the job? Honestly, I think he brought her to do it rather than in Buffy's respect, but to branch his friendships. I think at the end of season 7, we saw him and Faith starting to grow a relationship to an extent. I think it was partially an excuse for him to contact Faith.. as he states at the end.. he's looking forward to working with her just him and her. This is mainly what confuses me to those who still think that Giles is still loving and caring for Buffy at this moment.. if he's trying to seclude himself from Buffy.. how does that indicate any type of "it's for the best" motivation?

Maybe because it's the comics.. but even in their phone conversation I picked up such an apathetic mood that Giles portrays.. and I could see Head performing it perfectly (I ran it through my head). He just does not care about speaking with Buffy anymore. That's another thing.. he's not contacting her once so ever. No calls for no reasons, and he still "loves" her?
While Buffy and Angel actually strengthened their relationship with brief speakings, her and Giles were always about giving each other the scoop. Keeping in contact and looking for each other for security. That's not apparent anymore.. and I seriously believe that Giles is heading even further down a direction that doesn't have the "Now heading towards good" sign pointed towards it.


Well, Twilight can't be Riley then. His lines are mostly rubbish so far. At least, not big with the funny. I prefer the funny villains. Even the Master was a bit quippy sometimes. Reminded me a bit of Fagin (did anyone else just watch Oliver Twist on the Beeb?).


Wow.. I am befuddled. Twilight might be my favorite big bad since Angelus. His entire apparel with the floating boots and everything is just such a cool concept. I love his motivations as well, eliminating the magic era is just a great concept that I think season 4 aimed at but missed.. and I think it's time to come to a more "Slayer vs Big Guy" season.. considering we haven't had it since season 1 and 2. He may not be funny, but "rubbish"? When I read it cue, I almost had chills run down my back. Heck, this guy may even be MORE threatening than Angelus!

I CANNOT wait for her fight with him in "A Beautiful Sunset."

alexa
19-12-07, 05:49 AM
I definitely agree that Giles is just slowly pissing me off more and more. I think if he honestly was making all of these rude "but for her safety" decisions, he wouldn't be acting in suck a dick way about it.

I've stressed this before, but I'll say again that I tend to disagree with that Giles is still on the good side.. of things.. as someone pointed out, this seems to be more of a gray area for him. We haven't seen his entire motivations for things, and it's only been black and white (either scenes where he's being an ass, or being the genuine guy we love (TO FAITH OF ALL PEOPLE).

Why does he even care about Genevieve that much? Yes she was taking out the slayer line with her "father figure" Ronen, but was it honestly that dangerous as he proclaimed?? That he needed to have Faith to do the job? Honestly, I think he brought her to do it rather than in Buffy's respect, but to branch his friendships. I think at the end of season 7, we saw him and Faith starting to grow a relationship to an extent. I think it was partially an excuse for him to contact Faith.. as he states at the end.. he's looking forward to working with her just him and her. This is mainly what confuses me to those who still think that Giles is still loving and caring for Buffy at this moment.. if he's trying to seclude himself from Buffy.. how does that indicate any type of "it's for the best" motivation?

Maybe because it's the comics.. but even in their phone conversation I picked up such an apathetic mood that Giles portrays.. and I could see Head performing it perfectly (I ran it through my head). He just does not care about speaking with Buffy anymore. That's another thing.. he's not contacting her once so ever. No calls for no reasons, and he still "loves" her?
While Buffy and Angel actually strengthened their relationship with brief speakings, her and Giles were always about giving each other the scoop. Keeping in contact and looking for each other for security. That's not apparent anymore.. and I seriously believe that Giles is heading even further down a direction that doesn't have the "Now heading towards good" sign pointed towards it.


I understand the argument that Giles is just being a dick. You know because he is. Faith almost kills Buffy.. again (cause we know Buffy would be dead if Buffy didn't stab Faith in the gut.. pretty sure anyway), and then he's all 'I don't have time.. yadda yadda. Don't want you part of it'.
I love Faith's character as well, but Buffy doesn't have the insight we do, she doesn't know Faith wacked Roden across the face, risking her life, rather then plot to kill Buffy. So it sucks that they didn't have that moment right as Willow teleported her back.

But going back to Giles you don't just become a dickhead for no reason. He has to have reasoning for not wanting Buffy to be involved and with him saying to Faith about 'the others in our line of work who are not suited to this kind of thing'. I suppose he could be mad at the way Buffy treated him after Lies my Parents Told Me.

Lies My Parents Told Me is sort of a weird episode to me because I find myself annoyed with Giles as well as Buffy.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 06:04 AM
I don't sympathize with either side in "Lies My Parents Told Me" or "Empty Places" -- because, from outside the thing, yeah, Buffy was being short-sighted and rather unreasonable. But, on the other side... there is mutiny. Which is pretty hard to argue in favor of.

Koos
19-12-07, 06:29 PM
IMO Buffy is not a leader with leaderships skills. In S7 it was really bad and while she's grown it is still not her strong point. Buffy's the leader by name and because was the Chosen one, not because of her leadership's skills.

Anon
19-12-07, 07:01 PM
IMO Buffy is not a leader with leaderships skills. In S7 it was really bad and while she's grown it is still not her strong point. Buffy's the leader by name and because was the Chosen one, not because of her leadership's skills.Actually, I would disagree. She managed to take control of her job as the slayer away from the council and she got the scoobies to follow her, which means that she must have some leadership abilities.

She usually makes the right decision and although some of her choices have ranged from questionable to downright awful, for the most part her judgement can be trusted. Also, when she screws up, she deals with the consequences.

In season seven she gave up and fell to pieces. What you saw there was not typical Buffy. Now, well in roughly eighteen months she has managed to put together an army of slayers that operates internationally to keep down activity on various hellmouths. The organisation has its flaws, a lack of clear organisational structure and communication problems being amongst them, but I believe they will correct themselves as time goes on.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 07:10 PM
As a point of mythology, I don't think there are any "multiple hellmouths" figuring in this -- Joss himself has now even referred to Cleveland as having a "hellnostril", a term coined on message boards, and that, coupled with no other mentions of hellmouths, suggest to me that he's going to keep Sunnydale's hellmouth as an essentially unique part of the Buffyverse mythology.

Also, the outward evidence is of the Buffy's organization (we *really* need a nickname for this thing) is of a pretty well oiled machine. The only clear indication of a communication breakdown or disorganization is Giles going freelance with Faith on the Genevieve thing.

Koos
19-12-07, 07:13 PM
Actually, I would disagree. She managed to take control of her job as the slayer away from the council and she got the scoobies to follow her, which means that she must have some leadership abilities.

I agree with this, only that was 7 seasons ago. She made a couple very good decisions then, most of all to surround her with friends who are also capable to really help her. That is, IMO, also her strongest asset, to surround herself with the best people who can help her.



She usually makes the right decision and although some of her choices have ranged from questionable to downright awful, for the most part her judgement can be trusted. Also, when she screws up, she deals with the consequences.

She does make right decisions at times. (Not always though). But leadership is more than making the right decisions.



In season seven she gave up and fell to pieces. What you saw there was not typical Buffy.

I'm not so sure she fell to pieces. It was more neglecting her friends IMO.



Now, well in roughly eighteen months she has managed to put together an army of slayers that operates internationally to keep down activity on various hellmouths.

That is absolutely true. I don't deny the fact that this was huge accomplishment, but what is *her* contribution in this?

Anon
19-12-07, 07:57 PM
I agree with this, only that was 7 seasons ago. She made a couple very good decisions then, most of all to surround her with friends who are also capable to really help her. That is, IMO, also her strongest asset, to surround herself with the best people who can help her.She was able to persuade others to follow her. That is a part of leadership.


She does make right decisions at times. (Not always though). But leadership is more than making the right decisions.She was reasonably good at decision making. When she did screw up, she dealt with the consequences of that.

We have seen that she can persuade others to follow her and we have seen that she is reasonable at making decisions. Those two traits are sufficient for being a leader. What's more, when she screws up, for the most part, she will deal with the consequences of her mistakes. This is one of the qualities of a good leader.


I'm not so sure she fell to pieces. It was more neglecting her friends IMO.That was a small part of it. She didn't just neglect her friends, she turned into a complete bitch and lost the traits that caused others to follow her. The quality of her decision making also decreased. I call that falling to pieces.

Koos
19-12-07, 08:37 PM
She was able to persuade others to follow her. That is a part of leadership.

They were begging for it and they were children: it was all cool. But you're right it is a part of leadership. And a good one. I would say that it is the only reason why the organisation is so well as it is in S8 right now.



She was reasonably good at decision making. When she did screw up, she dealt with the consequences of that.



We have seen that she can persuade others to follow her and we have seen that she is reasonable at making decisions. Those two traits are sufficient for being a leader.

Definitely not. The way you make your decisions and how you sell your decisions is an extremely important aspect. I find her lacking in this. It's not only about the decisions, it's about the decisiveness of it. Giving orders to your best friends is different from giving orders to a group of scared potentials, for example.

Look for example at the difference between Xander in the comics and Buffy. How he gives his orders. She's still not strong in this, but she gets better when she's angry.

Secondly, she needs to enspire her followers. That's a very weak point of her. Look, for example, how Angel does this. He can defend all of his actions with it to his followers. Even suicide missions. Or look at how Xander dealt with Renee, after she felt responsible of the deaths of her fellow Slayers in issue 3. We never saw Buffy checking on a wounded potential and we still don't see her do this. She has Xander doing this, and with that she has found the right person to do the job. But it is still not something she has shown to be capable of.

A very important aspect of leadership is reflection. This is a weaker point of her. Has she learned anything from her mistakes during S7?



That was a small part of it. She didn't just neglect her friends, she turned into a complete bitch and lost the traits that caused others to follow her.ces.

She neclected her friends and she couldn't handle the pressure. And maybe she did break down. But if she had good leadershipskills she could still have done a good job. Good leadership skills are (acquired or natural) part of your personality: you don't need to think about it. You just do it.

Wolfie Gilmore
19-12-07, 08:42 PM
Yeah I noticed that too. But it's like you never really know if Gigi knows what she's talking about because she was being used by Roden, who's also being used by Twilight...

And, that's the tragedy isn't it? We (and Faith) never got the chance to know whether she could have been anything other than bad.

By the way, what do people think the song was that she's talking about as she died? For some reason I was thinking it was "you can't always get what you want". But maybe that's just because I've been watching too much House?


and what's up with that book? It tells them how to defeat Buffy?

Maybe it just tells them how to make really good cake? Not enough of those big musty books turn out to be books of delicious ancient recipies. I think this should be looked into.

What do I really think is in it? Probably a lot of spin with a few useful things thrown in, considering that Twilight didn't mean Roden to be part of the long term plan. It definitely includes a cool "oops I just made your head splode" spell though. ;)



Like your prodigal son analogy. It's pretty accurate in a way.

I think why it strikes a chord is because Faith has a certain biblical air about her. Caleb even calls her Cain, after all. She's cast in a tradition of visionary bad girls who go back to the whore of babylon (ok, not quite a girl....but, with the weird dream sequences!). Or perhaps Mary Magdalene, in the end? With Angel as her Christ figure?

Honestly, I sing a few Christmas carols and suddenly everything goes all exegesisy. :)



Although I didn't really see Giles in the boss type of position since like season 2.. and even since season 1 it's only been occasional when Buffy did what he said even if she felt differently (like when she punches out Giles to go face the Master).

Oh yeah, deffo, in practical terms. I just meant in a formal sense that he was "supposed" to be in charge, according to tradition and Watcher's Council protocol. But Buffy's even less mixy with protocol than she is with cars and guns.


Seems like he knows or is in a place now where he sees that killing humans (bad ones) is sometimes needed, and doesn't want Buffy to fall into that habit.

I think that is a part of his motive. But I think another part of his motivation isn't to protect Buffy, but to protect his reputation in Buffy's eyes. I think a part of him still wants to be seen as the kindly uncle figure in her life...but, seems he's lost out on that chance good and proper now.

Thanks for quoting the Ben stuff. It's endlessly fascinating to me that he's able to talk to Faith, even if tangentally, about Ben ("I have used lethal force before")...well, perhaps he's not talking about Ben, I'm sure he's got more blood than that on his hands. But, to my mind it brings up the memory of that, since that was the thing he hid from the main girl "under [his] watch", as he calls it.



But I don't see why Buffy wouldn't understand the need to help some slayers who aren't so emotionally well adjusted.

Yeah, I would've liked to see how she'd respond to Gigi if she'd been confronted with her... I Imagine, not exactly welcoming her with open arms, but perhaps she'd be more willing than Giles to give her a chance at life, even if not at freedom ever again (nice cosy dungeon in the castle maybe ;)).



I don't know if even Xander has enough cache with Buffy to pull that off at this point. Willow might just need to 'port Giles to them.

Heh, yeah, might need a little force for that encounter session to happen.



I dig Twilight so far. Like I said, he reminds me of Bane and/or Ra's al Ghul, and that's... never a bad thing.

Me, I prefer the Joker. Though my all-time fave Batman villain is not technically a DC character....it's Judge Death in Judgement on Gotham. Best. Crossover. Ever. Oh please, Dear dear dear Joss, let there one day be a "Buffy vs Judge Dredd" story? Pretty please? With Justice on top?

Haven't read anything more than a passing bit of Bane though.



Buffy has been a mythic figure for quite some time. It's been a rare occasion since Season 2 for someone not to know exactly who she is, even down to ordinary people around Sunnydale (Warren knew, even). She even comments on it in "The Gift". I don't think the mythic image is something she's unfamiliar with, and is undoubtedly willing to make bank on.

I think it hasn't played such a large role in her tactics (or her tactical options) before. While Dracula had heard of her, they were kinda on equal myth footing...she was in his thrall and everything for a while there. The kind of myth-making that's going on about Buffy now relates to her not just as the slayer, but as a leader of slayers - so it's a political myth as much as a hero myth.



I think that Buffy (and Xander's) resistance to those terms are *why* the bad guys are right about her (them).

Interesting, why do you say that? Isn't her rejection of, as you say, the general buffy attitude a positive thing? If she's the den mother rather than the generalissimo...is that a bad?



The prodigal son is a parable of faith, is the thing.[

Oh sure, if you're gonna use wisdom.... Interruping a good rant with reference to the actual meaning of the parable, I ask you. :D


So, while I'd resist turning Buffy into an all-out messianic figure, Giles "prodigal" moment would be coming back into the fold because he really believes in their mission and believes that Buffy really does know what she's doing. To have been lost, and be found.

Yes, that would be the fulfillment of the parable. But, given that Buffy is not the messiah, but a very naughty (or at least human, and not always forgiving) girl, I doubt poor prodigal Giles will get his fatted calf. Or perhaps that should be haggis, given the location?



He just does not care about speaking with Buffy anymore. That's another thing.. he's not contacting her once so ever. No calls for no reasons, and he still "loves" her?

I think his facial expressions do show he still cares - though there's definitely room for interpretation, he's not got a bad poker face these days, but perhaps it's more telling in his conversations with Faith. When he looks down and away when he's talking about not wanting to show his charges his more murderous side, I like to think he's thinking of Buffy there, and regretting. But who knows what his real feelings for Buffy are nowadays, and whethre he'll get a chance to show them?


Wow.. I am befuddled. Twilight might be my favorite big bad since Angelus.

Oh, not saying he won't be good in the end, I just haven't seen enough of him to really rate him yet. He certainly has good evil plans and excellent follow through. :) I think to really test his mettle I need to see him interacting with the heroes though. That's the test of a good Big Bad for me. :) Well, not good. You knw what I mean.



[

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 08:53 PM
Interesting, why do you say that? Isn't her rejection of, as you say, the general buffy attitude a positive thing? If she's the den mother rather than the generalissimo...is that a bad?

I'm saying right about her with their great praise and fear, not with their ultimate opinion that she's dangerous (other than to them). It's this matriarchal quality I sense, of her as teacher/mother instead of commander/tyrant, which she too easily slipped into in Season 7, that makes her so powerful. I think having her and Xander together, and now with Willow part of that authority, and with Dawn just around, that "First Family" vibe that filled the early episodes of Season 7 basically shoots through the entire Slayer organization like Judge-bolts. Also a vibe I'm picking up in "After the Fall", from Connor's band of misfits, and the immense loyalty they all seem to have towards him.


Yes, that would be the fulfillment of the parable. But, given that Buffy is not the messiah, but a very naughty (or at least human, and not always forgiving) girl, I doubt poor prodigal Giles will get his fatted calf. Or perhaps that should be haggis, given the location?

To read it again, it's even more a parable of the wonder of salvation in general. Before the father explains to his oldest son why they are slaughtering the fattened calf, he assures him "you have always been with me and everything I have is yours" -- he has no favorites.

That aside, no, I don't expect a real 'prodigal' moment for Giles. I don't see that relationship healing any time soon. Frankly, I don't want it to take center stage in 8.10, at least -- there's a lot of other stuff about Buffy, Willow, Dawn, and Xander I'd like to know than about Buffy and Giles. Enough went wrong in Season 7 for us to just assume they still have a problem than to spend a lot of space adding backstory to a relationship we can make pretty logical inferences about as it is.


I think to really test his mettle I need to see him interacting with the heroes though. That's the test of a good Big Bad for me. Well, not good. You knw what I mean.

Welcome to Thunderdome in 8.11 :) Round one, in which Buffy traditionally gets slapped around for a while.

Anon
19-12-07, 09:22 PM
Definitely not. The way you make your decisions and how you sell your decisions is an extremely important aspect. I find her lacking in this. It's not only about the decisions, it's about the decisiveness of it. Giving orders to your best friends is different from giving orders to a group of scared potentials, for example.Sorry, what have you added that I haven't already covered? Don't use season seven as a point of reference. Buffy in most of season seven is highly atypical of what she is like normally.


Look for example at the difference between Xander in the comics and Buffy. How he gives his orders. She's still not strong in this, but she gets better when she's angry.Compared to when Buffy gives orders? Using season eight as a reference, they are about equal.


Secondly, she needs to enspire her followers. That's a very weak point of her. Look, for example, how Angel does this. He can defend all of his actions with it to his followers. Even suicide missions. Or look at how Xander dealt with Renee, after she felt responsible of the deaths of her fellow Slayers in issue 3. We never saw Buffy checking on a wounded potential and we still don't see her do this. She has Xander doing this, and with that she has found the right person to do the job. But it is still not something she has shown to be capable of.Except for several times at various points in canon.


A very important aspect of leadership is reflection. This is a weaker point of her. Has she learned anything from her mistakes during S7?From what we've seen, yes. She isn't shutting out the slayers. In fact, it seems to be the other way round. They are the ones keeping her at a distance.


She neclected her friends and she couldn't handle the pressure. And maybe she did break down. But if she had good leadershipskills she could still have done a good job. Good leadership skills are (acquired or natural) part of your personality: you don't need to think about it. You just do it.Actually that isn't true. Great leaders who have done well in one set of circumstances have been hopeless under different conditions. In season seven, Buffy encountered a set of circumstances that she wasn't able to deal with effectively.

The fact that she was able to take charge in the first place and the fact that she could convince the scoobies and potentials to take her back after kicking her out is proof of her ability as a leader.

Wolfie Gilmore
19-12-07, 09:29 PM
I'm saying right about her with their great praise and fear, not with their ultimate opinion that she's dangerous (other than to them). It's this matriarchal quality I sense, of her as teacher/mother instead of commander/tyrant, which she too easily slipped into in Season 7, that makes her so powerful. I think having her and Xander together, and now with Willow part of that authority, and with Dawn just around, that "First Family" vibe that filled the early episodes of Season 7 basically shoots through the entire Slayer organization like Judge-bolts. Also a vibe I'm picking up in "After the Fall", from Connor's band of misfits, and the immense loyalty they all seem to have towards him.

So, in a sense, Gigi not all that far wrong calling Buffy a slayer queen... since there's a "if you're in the family, you're in power" vibe (though a family in the season 5 Family sense of peer bonds not necessarily blood). Perhaps a peerarchy ;)

The princess di ref in this issue was a bit random. Was that just a bit of britwanking? Or is it because they've been reading the tabloids a lot lately? (lots of lady di stuff coming up at the moment, not entirely sure why because I've not read past the headlines. Something about her and Dodi and various other boyfriends.) Buffy, the people's slayer princess perhaps?




That aside, no, I don't expect a real 'prodigal' moment for Giles. I don't see that relationship healing any time soon. Frankly, I don't want it to take center stage in 8.10, at least -- there's a lot of other stuff about Buffy, Willow, Dawn, and Xander I'd like to know than about Buffy and Giles. Enough went wrong in Season 7 for us to just assume they still have a problem than to spend a lot of space adding backstory to a relationship we can make pretty logical inferences about as it is.

I wanted more in this issue about it (less punching and kicking, more Buffy/Giles) but in terms of the issues to come, yeah, the other pieces need moving forward on the board. Looking forward to some quality Buffy and Willow time :)In the air. Woo!




Welcome to Thunderdome in 8.11 :) Round one, in which Buffy traditionally gets slapped around for a while.

I'm still hoping Twilight will offer some quips to go with the punching. Come on mask boy, you can do it!

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 09:36 PM
So, in a sense, Gigi not all that far wrong calling Buffy a slayer queen... since there's a "if you're in the family, you're in power" vibe (though a family in the season 5 Family sense of peer bonds not necessarily blood). Perhaps a peerarchy

Season 5 would be the right tone, but I've always found the family metaphor best suited to the Buffyverse and the Scoobies, especially in the later seasons and even more so in Season 8, to be mafioso and not royalty. I wasn't *just* screwing around in that fic I wrote. They kind of *are* gangsters.

But, I think that phrase, "Queen of the Slayers" has a natural resonance, even if it is a lousy book.

Koos
19-12-07, 09:49 PM
Compared to when Buffy gives orders? Using season eight as a reference, they are about equal.

How many orders did Buffy give during S8?


From what we've seen, yes. She isn't shutting out the slayers. In fact, it seems to be the other way round. They are the ones keeping her at a distance.


Okay: prime example of why she's lacking leadershipskills. Buffy is the one who *is* shutting out Slayers. If they keep a distance around her, than she should do something about it: she is their leader. Not once have I see her putting them at ease around her. Both Xander and Willow have. Not saying they are that succesfull either, but at least they tried. It's part of who they are, it's part of their personality. Buffy doesn't even consider it. It's not part of her personality.



Actually that isn't true. Great leaders who have done well in one set of circumstances have been hopeless under different conditions.

Can you give an example?

Buffy failed in S7 *because* she's lacking leadership skills, not because she was hopeless due to the conditions. The conditions were very tough and they showed (and amplified) her flaws as a leader to the point that she failed.



The fact that she was able to take charge in the first place and the fact that she could convince the scoobies and potentials to take her back after kicking her out is proof of her ability as a leader.

She did reflect on herself, that helped taking them back. It was a rare instance.

She took charge in the first place? She was the leader by default, of course she was first at charge. The fact that she loose it, was because she was not such a great leader.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 09:53 PM
How many orders did Buffy give during S8?

Off-hand? She directs the big training thing in 8.02, she asks Renee to send a message to Willow (even a request is essentially an order if the objective and subjective expectation of both sides is that the request must be fulfilled), she gives Satsu orders before going into battle in 8.04. She orders Willow to "get her Giles".

The rest of the time, her authority is implicit and unquestioned. I haven't seen any more or less 'distance' from her people from Buffy or signs of bad leadership from her in Season 8 than I see from, for instance, Jean-Luc Picard.

Wolfie Gilmore
19-12-07, 09:57 PM
Season 5 would be the right tone, but I've always found the family metaphor best suited to the Buffyverse and the Scoobies, especially in the later seasons and even more so in Season 8, to be mafioso and not royalty.

Dude, have you met our royal family? Very little difference :D Well, if you'd believe the stories about "The Firm" offing Diana because she was going with a guy from a rival gang :D But the difference between the Scoobies and both the mafia and The Firm is that the traditions of the two latter have been established over generations.

What's so fascinating to me about the Scoobies and their new uber-gang is that they're starting from scratch to a degree - with a group of people who've known each other less than ten years, who've been busking it all these years, learning on the job...but still not having a particular structure. This means they're more flexible, more creative...but potentially more chaotic.



I wasn't *just* screwing around in that fic I wrote. They kind of *are* gangsters.

Well, not in a money-motivated sense. But in the sense of them being unregulated. Who guards the guards is still highly relevant to them, even if they're not as nasty as the Watchers, they're still a powerful bunch of people who answer to no one but themselves.

Random flash of fanfic idea involving Rita Skeeter writing a tabloid piece on the scooby gang...



But, I think that phrase, "Queen of the Slayers" has a natural resonance, even if it is a lousy book.

Never read it. Stinker?

Random flash of fanfic idea number two...Buffy as a Spenserian hero in the Fairy Queen, a la the Redcrosse Knight. Where she'd also be playing the queen, like in Kind Hearts and Coronets where pretty much everyone is obi wan kinobe. Well, if they do insist on striking him down...he#ll be coming back as an army of clones.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 10:03 PM
What's so fascinating to me about the Scoobies and their new uber-gang is that they're starting from scratch to a degree - with a group of people who've known each other less than ten years, who've been busking it all these years, learning on the job...but still not having a particular structure. This means they're more flexible, more creative...but potentially more chaotic.

That's exactly what I mean. They have a moral direction, and that's very good, but I like that they are their own masters -- they have really moved outside civil human authority completely, and the "terrorist cells" thing made that official. They *are* regulators now, they're Marv. They're from the 'all or nothing days' :) I think that has been true since some time in Season 5.


Never read it. Stinker?

Overly broad attempt at canon-closing catch-allness set after "Chosen" which includes Tara back as some kind of an Angel, Buffy actually dating the Immortal, some age old nasties trying to start a war between Slayers, and Buffy ending up somehow co-impregnated by Spike and Angel, both of whom are sterile.

Wolfie Gilmore
19-12-07, 10:12 PM
That's exactly what I mean. They have a moral direction, and that's very good, but I like that they are their own masters -- they have really moved outside civil human authority completely, and the "terrorist cells" thing made that official. They *are* regulators now, they're Marv. They're from the 'all or nothing days' :) I think that has been true since some time in Season 5.

But now, they have hundreds of hot chicks with superpowers, plus funding. As Spike put it so charmingly: "I always wondered what would happen when that bitch got some funding".



Overly broad attempt at canon-closing catch-allness set after "Chosen" which includes Tara back as some kind of an Angel, Buffy actually dating the Immortal, some age old nasties trying to start a war between Slayers, and Buffy ending up somehow co-impregnated by Spike and Angel, both of whom are sterile.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure that's not just a terrible disturbing dream you had after eating cheese slices? Bloody hell!

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 10:21 PM
Believe me, Wolfie, if you read that book, these (*shows cheese slices*) will not protect you. It's like Lord of the Golden Compass Chronicles of Narnia: The Watcher, the Witch, and the Slayer.

But, I dig the 'gangster' vibe about the Scoobies and Slayers, Inc. (trying one out). Even back in Sunnydale, I always felt like they always managed to get those same general set of seats at the Bronze because... people coughed 'em up. We saw in "I Was Made to Love You" with Warren, young people of a certain age knew what Buffy was at least after a fashion, and they knew who her crew was, and... respect, y'know?

I tend to figure they get that kind of treatment on a global scale. Especially when they put their thing down, a la "Damage".

Wolfie Gilmore
19-12-07, 10:28 PM
Believe me, Wolfie, if you read that book, these (*shows cheese slices*) will not protect you. It's like Lord of the Golden Compass Chronicles of Narnia: The Watcher, the Witch, and the Slayer.

Except, that actually sounds good! Well, I like all the component parts at least. But I suppose if it ended up being the pitiful bastard child of all three then that would not be a good. Though, I'd like to see a Buffy meets Aslan crossover fanfic! Especially if they could have a discussion of why crucifixes work on vampirse in her world. Because, well, yup, the crack would be good.



But, I dig the 'gangster' vibe about the Scoobies and Slayers, Inc. (trying one out). Even back in Sunnydale, I always felt like they always managed to get those same general set of seats at the Bronze because... people coughed 'em up.

Much like Friends. Loved the ep where someone else tried to sit in their seats.

The Nu Scoobies (trying another out ;)) have a "black ops" or military feel to them in some respects (people calling Buffy ma'am....though I suppose that would fit with her beeing queen of hte slayers too!). They're a hydbrid organisation. Take one part monarchy, one part military dictatorship, add a little matriarchy, a pinch of S.H.I.E.L.D. and a little bit of the shonkyness of Torchwood...and if we're lucky, in future, some of its "everyone shags everyone vibe" (not really).


We saw in "I Was Made to Love You" with Warren, young people of a certain age knew what Buffy was at least after a fashion, and they knew who her crew was, and... respect, y'know?

I'm trying to think of how that vibes with me. It's not quite mafioso...more like a street gang, perhaps? As in, edgier, less defined...but still commanding respect in the neighbourhood. Or perhaps like the drug dudes in The Wire :D

*mind spirals off into Omar/Giles slash....*



I tend to figure they get that kind of treatment on a global scale. Especially when they put their thing down, a la "Damage".

Ooh, they're also like pirates. Like a big global pirate gang. Or possibly the people who make opensource programs. :)

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 10:34 PM
I'm trying to think of how that vibes with me. It's not quite mafioso...more like a street gang, perhaps?

I don't know, it's kinda like Ray Liotta's opening monologue in "Goodfellas", isn't it?


They're a hydbrid organisation. Take one part monarchy, one part military dictatorship, add a little matriarchy, a pinch of S.H.I.E.L.D. and a little bit of the shonkyness of Torchwood...and if we're lucky, in future, some of its "everyone shags everyone vibe" (not really).

I could do without most things Torchwood, but, generally, yeah. But it's more than that. I get the feeling that when Buffy or any of the others decide its time to unwind, that they don't have to wait in line, I think the rope opens for them. Power calls out to power, and they wield a lot of it. Some of the tonal things about "The Girl in Question" still feel authentic to me, even after knowing it was a fake.

nester
19-12-07, 10:56 PM
I don't sympathize with either side in "Lies My Parents Told Me" or "Empty Places" -- because, from outside the thing, yeah, Buffy was being short-sighted and rather unreasonable. But, on the other side... there is mutiny. Which is pretty hard to argue in favor of.

Without a higher authority for the dissenters to lobby to or be judged/court marshaled by, I have a hard time describing either situation as mutiny. LMPTM was a personal betrayal and EP was a vote of no confidence. If the overwhelming majority of your followers resend their consent to be led by you, you are no longer the group’s leader.


In season seven she gave up and fell to pieces.

I definitely think Buffy was having some kind of breakdown. There is no other way I could reconcile her lack of concern for Dawn in that scene in LMPTM. Her obsession with Spike reminded me of Linus and his blanket; not exactly what Whedon was going for. That nanny Xander and First Joyce were right, all she needed was a nap, is unbelievable.

Comatose in five, clinically depressed in six, and cracking under the pressure in seven. Lets hope we can go the full season without Buffy being broken in one way or another. The kick the Buffy game is getting old.

Rewatching the first season recently, I was surprised by how much more Buffy’s “I quit”speech affected me compared to when it first aired. Does anyone think that maybe sending teenagers to their deaths has gotten too hard for Giles? I doubt decoy Buffy was the only casualty they’ve suffered since Sunnydale. Being the partner of the second most experienced slayer would probably be a lot easier than packing up all the personal items of girls who didn’t return from their missions.

Nostalgia
20-12-07, 05:48 AM
Definitely not. The way you make your decisions and how you sell your decisions is an extremely important aspect. I find her lacking in this. It's not only about the decisions, it's about the decisiveness of it. Giving orders to your best friends is different from giving orders to a group of scared potentials, for example.

Wait, you HAVE been watching Buffy the last two seasons, correct? The massive amount of slayers that are following her organization? That's not demonstrating an impact or some sort of persuasion?

How can you say Buffy is not a good leader? We've seen her lead the Scoobies into battle for 7 years now.. and they've come out winning every time. Maybe if they all died and the First succeeded.. I could see your point, but I think it's safe to say that the fact that they DID win the battle demonstrates that she was a wonderful leader.

Buffy's only decision in season 7 that was debatable for a bad call (and I stress debatable) was her belief that they should have gone back into the vineyard again. Other than that, I fail to see where you've seen Buffy act as such a bad leader.

Actually, considering most of these potentials were snotty and young, and didn't know the half of being a slayer.. but you know Buffy 7 years before this.. don't you think they would have had a bigger respect for her if they had known all of the things that she had done in the past? You know, die for the world twice, save the world countless times, demonstrate selflessness, bravery, etc. The term "leader" isn't just a physical word, as in being able to direct people and give orders.. but it is also one that is I find to brush the same idea of a hero.. one who clearly puts efforts into her job.




Look for example at the difference between Xander in the comics and Buffy. How he gives his orders. She's still not strong in this, but she gets better when she's angry.

That's not even important though.. Remind you that slayers still are humans.. meaning that they all have their faults in a way. I am a man on an island in my controversial belief that slayers are born with strategy/leadership skills (Anon remembers this well), but that's besides the point. The fact is, is that you need others to portray to full package and continue to succeed. There's a reason why Buffy's lasted so long.. and those reasons are Xander, Willow, and up and until last season Giles.



Secondly, she needs to enspire her followers. That's a very weak point of her. Look, for example, how Angel does this. He can defend all of his actions with it to his followers. Even suicide missions. Or look at how Xander dealt with Renee, after she felt responsible of the deaths of her fellow Slayers in issue 3. We never saw Buffy checking on a wounded potential and we still don't see her do this. She has Xander doing this, and with that she has found the right person to do the job. But it is still not something she has shown to be capable of.

Buffy inspired her followers in many ways. The simple fact that they believe and trust in her is inspiration. Her speeches inspired them. Her actions inspired them. She taught them how to become the best slayer they could be without actually being one.. just because it isn't stated somewhere in the text doesn't mean she didn't inspire them. Frankly, if they weren't inspired by her.. I'd be very offended by those groups of girls.

But if we're talking about consoling with the potentials.. Sure Buffy didn't.. but did anyone? The potentials.. for the most part.. consoled with each other. Xander, Willow, Buffy, Giles, and every other head figure during their stay were busy giving them orders rather than actually focusing on their emotions and getting to know them. There's a reason for this too.. and it's that it wasn't important. As Buffy stated, if one of them wanted to go.. the door was free. Buffy's org. was a means of food, protection, and most important shelter. Buffy had more things on her hands with, you know.. keeping them alive.. and protecting the world from the essence of evil.. you know.. than to actually sit down and gal-pal with them. If anything, that would be the others' jobs.. but even they didn't.




A very important aspect of leadership is reflection. This is a weaker point of her. Has she learned anything from her mistakes during S7?

Mistakes? That's a very strong opinion. Nothing was ever stated in season 7 as a mistake. The closest mistake she ever made was implied in "Empty Places," but even that was given the short end of the stick because in the end Buffy was right all along.. and they were wrong. The jury's still out to whether or not her choice to go back to the vineyard would have been a bad idea.. though I see both ways, I think they should have gone.

Other than that though, what mistakes are you talking about?




She neclected her friends and she couldn't handle the pressure. And maybe she did break down.


What?! There's so many opinions in that statement, let alone slightly confusing opinions.

First of all, considering she once again had an even bigger weight on her shoulders (not just one girl to protect, over 30 of them)... I wouldn't be surprised if she did crack under pressure. Slayers should be held at a higher status, but they are still humans. The important part is that in season 7, she NEVER cracked under pressure. In fact if anything she overcame pressure. Caleb had pressured her into making her feel under him, but she found the scythe, killed him with ease, came up with an idea to save the world AND saved it. That's cracking under pressure? The only time Buffy actually ever did crack under pressure was when she went comatose in "The Weight of the World," but honestly.. I think it would be extremely rude for us to criticize such a thing.


But if she had good leadershipskills she could still have done a good job. Good leadership skills are (acquired or natural) part of your personality: you don't need to think about it. You just do it.

Before I debate my point, "she could still have done a good job?" Since when did Buffy not do a good job?

I don't understand this debate here.. it seems if Buffy's becoming too intertwined with people's feelings, one would complain about her letting her emotions get the best of her (something that Giles seems to worry about.) Yet, you get mad at her if she becomes hard as a rock, because she's doing exactly what Giles had told her. Her job was to be brutal.. and to not be their friend.. but be their leader.

No good leader demonstrates friendliness and emotions at the same time. It's been evident that way throughout the human history.

Anon
20-12-07, 07:49 AM
How many orders did Buffy give during S8?This one's been answered, so I'll leave it.


Okay: prime example of why she's lacking leadershipskills. Buffy is the one who *is* shutting out Slayers. If they keep a distance around her, than she should do something about it: she is their leader.Easier said than done. There were things like that moment when she wanted to talk to Satsu about her hairstyle when she has attempted to approach the slayers informally.


Not once have I see her putting them at ease around her. Both Xander and Willow have. Not saying they are that succesfull either, but at least they tried. It's part of who they are, it's part of their personality. Buffy doesn't even consider it. It's not part of her personality.She isn't remote or authoritarian to them. In fact she is very relaxed and informal.


Can you give an example?Ever heard of Winston Churchill? He was a good leader in war, but hopeless in peace.


Buffy failed in S7 *because* she's lacking leadership skills, not because she was hopeless due to the conditions. The conditions were very tough and they showed (and amplified) her flaws as a leader to the point that she failed.No they didn't. Buffy wasn't acting the way she did because that is what she was like. She acted like that because she had given up and believed that they were all going to die.


She did reflect on herself, that helped taking them back. It was a rare instance.Rare? Again, it occurs repeatedly throughout canon.


She took charge in the first place? She was the leader by default, of course she was first at charge. The fact that she loose it, was because she was not such a great leader.What are you talking about? Giles was the one who was in charge by default as he was Buffy's watcher. Buffy took control because she was worthy of the role of leader.

In either case, whether she was more autocratic or democratic is irrelevant. There are many different styles of leadership and each one is suited to different people and situations. The one thing that they all have in common is that in order to use any of them, you have to be able to make decisions and get people to go along with them. Buffy can do this very successfully.

Nostalgia
01-01-08, 04:32 PM
Bump..


I really want Koos to come back are start answering my questions/opinions. That's a very strange and strong opinion of his to believe that Buffy was not only a faulted leader, but a bad one. I am confused to how such a thing was thought up, because he did watch the entire series, right?

Any thoughts from anyone else? Is he the only one that believes this?

Koos
03-01-08, 09:48 AM
I really want Koos to come back are start answering my questions/opinions. That's a very strange and strong opinion of his to believe that Buffy was not only a faulted leader, but a bad one.

I didn't say that she was a bad leader, I said she was lacking leadership skills (thus she's a faulted one): they are not a part of her. In S7 this lacking was amplified because of the need of them. Under the current circumstances, S8, they are not needed that much. But I still can't say that she has acquired them, though she has grown w.r.t. S7.