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vampmogs
05-10-12, 06:46 AM
Hey :wave:

So I was thinking today about my own personal canon and how I imagine things that are never canonically stated in the text. For instance, in AtS S4 Faith is attacked in prison by an inmate called "Deb" who is wielding a Bringer knife. Now, it's quite obvious that the First sent her to kill Faith but the actress who plays Deb is actually the same actress who plays Patrice, the Order of Taraka assassin who opens fire in Sunnydale High in BtVS S2. My own personal canon is that Patrice and Deb are actually infact the same person and that the First hired a Taraka assassin to take out Faith. It is never stated in the text but IMO it makes a lot of sense and is more fun than pretending that the two characters just share an uncanny resemblance.

I also quite like the idea that Cecily was in fact Halfrek in Fool For Love and that she was on official vengeance business. We're never told if she was meant to have been turned into a vengeance demon after those events or if William had been fancying a demon all along. It's more interesting to me if it was simply Halfrek infiltrating high society much the same way Anya infiltrated Sunnydale High and transformed herself into a teenage girl (with the hormones and feelings to boot).

Other brief things include;

- Spike's leather duster was boxed up in the school basement (Get it Done) because Buffy held onto it after he left it on her banister in Seeing Red, and she returned it to him at some point in S7 when he was crazy and living underneath Sunnydale High.

- In Restless, during Buffy's dream she opens up an old leather bag which has the primordial ooze inside of it. Buffy paints it on her face which represents the primal Slayer/demon inside of her. This leather bag looks almost identical to Nikki Wood's leather bag in Get It Done which contained the origin story of the First Slayer (the shadow puppets) and was meant to be a Slayer keepsake and passed down through the generations. It's my personal canon that it is in fact the same bag and that Buffy was dreaming of the keepsake which would reveal where her power came from. It's simply too symbolic for me to think of it as just a coincidence, although I know it probably was.

- Giles had to do a de-invite spell on his house in Passion to prevent Angelus from getting inside, even though there was never a scene nor was it referenced that Angel had ever been to Giles house. It's my personal canon that after Angel obtained the Codex for Giles in Out of Mind, Out of Sight the two kept in touch (hence Giles having his phone number in Prophecy Girl) and that Angel probably visited the house over the Summer of S1-S2.

- I think it was NileQT87 that came up with this one, but I really love it and consider it my personal canon too. The reason Darla dresses up as a schoolgirl in BtVS S1 is because she was already aware that Angel was in town and stalking a high school girl (Buffy) and dressed up as one because she was jealous and/or to mock him.

- The government agency that takes Marcie Ross away (and trains her to be an assassin) is part of the same department responsible for The Initiative – which is of course inspired by the Nazi’s own similar program as revealed in Why We Fight.

- Angel uses Judy's stolen money in Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been to help purchase the Hyperion Hotel. He finds it down in the basement and as far as I can recall we're never told what he did with it.

- It was revealed in AtS S4 that it had been Evil!Cordy's plan all along to manipulate the gang into bringing Angelus back and then to release him from the cage. However, it was never clarified how she motivated the gang to do this other than the faux visions of The Beast/Angelus in the past. Fred's explanation for why Angelus could remember The Beast but not Angel never made any sense because she claimed that Angel's memory was wiped when all references to The Beast were banished from this dimension, but Angelus's weren't since his mind "wasn't present" when the spell took place. Since Angel and Angelus share the same mind and memories that is illogical. My personal canon is that Evil!Cordy did a spell to rob Angel of his memories so the gang would want Angelus back, and then once they took away his soul Evil!Cordy broke the spell so that Angelus could remember again. At least then it makes sense and we're given an explanation for how Evil!Cordy managed to manipulate the whole thing in the first place.

- Dawn generally feels neglected and ignored by the gang, especially in S5, and my personal canon has always been that she feels like she hasn't affected anything because she literally hasn't. The writers always made it so that the monks changed as little about the past 4 seasons as possible so I love the idea that Dawn was inserted into the past 4 years without playing a major role in anything that happened. It explains why Dawn feels so ignored because in her memories she really wasn't significant in anybody's life and it also explains why straight after the spell in Real Me Dawn starts bugging Buffy immensely, as if because Buffy intuitively feels something is wrong because whilst she has memories of Dawn it's the first time Dawn is actually affecting the narrative in anyway.

- In Ted, Ted threatens Buffy that she'll spend her best dating years "behind the wall of a mental institution" right before Buffy beats the shit out of him. It's always been my personal canon that Joyce had told Ted about the time Buffy spent in the asylum (as referenced in Normal Again) and that part of the reason Buffy loses her temper so much in that scene is because his threat triggers that horribly traumatic experience for her and sends her into a fit of rage. I’m generally not a fan of that retcon in Normal Again because there are too many instances in the earlier seasons where Buffy referenced Vampire Slaying and Joyce barely reacted at all, but in Ted it actually works.

I also have person canon relating to the comics as well. For instance, in AtS S5 Giles tells Angel that Willow is unavailable to help with Fred/Illyria because she is on another astral plan. In S8’s Goddesses and Monsters Willow goes on a magical quest to understand her power which exists in a dimension/plane separate to ours. Now, it’s never specified when exactly Willow goes on this quest only that the story takes place sometime between Chosen and The Long Way Home so it’s certainly possible that it happened around the same time as Shells when Angel tried to reach her. We’re also never shown Willow telling Giles about her quest but I could easily imagine her doing so or having Kennedy relay that information to him instead. Although Joss never explicitly draws a connection between the two I do wonder if this what he was hinting at so it’s pretty much my personal canon that the two are connected.

I also believe that the two women going out with Andrew in TGIQ are in fact Slayers from his squad. I know this is a popular theory amongst many S8 readers after the reveal that the “Buffy” in Rome was in fact a decoy Slayer and Andrew was tricking Angel and Spike the entire time. Although it’s never confirmed in the books it’s more than likely that those two women were Slayers from the Rome Squad and I’m sure Joss wouldn’t mind as he’s on the record of being unhappy with that scene. Originally it was meant to be both a boy and a girl on Andrew’s arm to keep his sexuality ambiguous so at least this way it makes more sense. Also, Angel's spy wasn't knocked out by one of The Immortal's goons but in fact by a Slayer who saw him tailing the Decoy.

That's all I can think of right now but I'm sure I have more. Does anybody else have their own personal canon?

Mogs :)

Stoney
05-10-12, 09:39 AM
My own personal canon also has Cecily as Halfrek who D'Hoffryn recruited because she was such a bitch who had a natural ability to find the worst way to hurt, so when we see her in William's sphere she is just her natural unlovable self, pre demon.

I like the idea that Buffy held on to Spike's duster with my Spuffy hat on but my personal canon was that Buffy took it over to Clem to keep with Spike's other stuff and the box was handed over to him when he was found in the basement. But not necessarily by Buffy, Clem probably took it over.

My canon re: Darla's outfit in S1 was simply to lure school boys and because she knew The Master liked them young.

I am sure that I have loads but I've never really thought about it. I am rewatching at the moment and am only at S2 so I am sure I will be reminded of some as I go along. The only thing I can think of at the moment is that I always worked on the assumption that Giles had some sort of agreement to have library 'helpers' and it was under this assumption that his relationship and the amount of time he spent with the Scoobs was accepted.

Oh, I have also always worked on the basis that Hank Summers ended up in a relationship with someone probably not too dissimilar in age to Buffy and that this made him uncomfortable for being judged and him not liking seeing the two 'girls' side by side, so he ended up breaking away from his daughter(s), probably with the urging of said girlfriend.

But neither of these are particularly interesting ones. I will look out for them.

I love the canon characterisation about Dawn btw, that works brilliantly.

vampmogs
05-10-12, 01:15 PM
Oh, I have also always worked on the basis that Hank Summers ended up in a relationship with someone probably not too dissimilar in age to Buffy and that this made him uncomfortable for being judged and him not liking seeing the two 'girls' side by side, so he ended up breaking away from his daughter(s), probably with the urging of said girlfriend.

In Family Buffy tells Giles that Hank has run off to Spain with his secretary so you're probably not that far off the mark. And in CWDP she tells Holden that she thinks Hank cheated on Joyce so not only would it be awkward having, as Randy would say, a tarty step mum half daddy's age, but his daughters would be faced with the other woman too!

I've always thought that Hank grew more distant as he became more frustrated with Buffy. The last time he appears is in WSWB and he seemed greatly disappointed that she had been distant all Summer. It also probably didn't impress him very much later in the year when he found out she was in trouble with the police, again, and had ran away from home. I actually suspect that a lot of Buffy's fears in Nightmares were grounded in actual reality and that Hank entered his mid-life crisis stage where a troublesome teen daughter just no longer seemed as appealing as vacationing with his hot young secretary.

A lot of people accuse the writers of retconning Hank's character to make him a deadbeat father but I actually find that whole story line very believable. I know of a few people in RL who were very close to both of their parents after a divorce but over time, and especially if dad lives in a different part of the country, they grew apart and now they barley see their father at all. It's really sad but it happens a lot.

I just thought of another one! I've always pretty much assumed that Faith was been sexually abused as a child. It has never been confirmed but she shows all the signs :(

TimeTravellingBunny
06-10-12, 07:39 PM
I also quite like the idea that Cecily was in fact Halfrek in Fool For Love and that she was on official vengeance business. We're never told if she was meant to have been turned into a vengeance demon after those events or if William had been fancying a demon all along. It's more interesting to me if it was simply Halfrek infiltrating high society much the same way Anya infiltrated Sunnydale High and transformed herself into a teenage girl (with the hormones and feelings to boot).

I love all your personal canon theories and most of them are those I subscribe to as well. I'll add that, in fact, if Halfrek is Cecily, then it is canon that she was already a demon when she met William in 1880, since she mentions in Selfless that she was with Anyanka in Russia during the Crimean war (1853-1856).

My bit of personal canon: I always assumed that Buffy and Spike had at least one conversation if not several between Dead Things and Older and Far Away. Many people seem convinced that they didn't even meet between the alley beating and the time he shows up at her birthday party (and criticize Buffy for her not showing she's sorry), which makes no sense to me. For starters, some time has obviously passed, it's not the next day (injuries don't heal that easily even on vampires) and more importantly, Buffy's behavior and interactions with Spike make no sense if they're supposed to directly follow from what we saw in Dead Things. At the beginning of the episode, Tara asks Buffy if she's ready to "come out" and Buffy seems more open to the idea, saying she needs to see how well Spike plays with others; I can't imagine her assuming that they're still in a relationship, let alone being so relatively positive about it, if that was a direct continuation of where they left things in Dead Things. And then there's Buffy's and Spike's lighthearted flirting at the party (yes, Spike does mention the beating, but only later when he gets angry), which feels completely dissonant from DT. Don't get me wrong, I think the writers dropped the ball by not dealing with the aftermath of DT, but there's no reason to assume that there weren't any off-screen events that would make more sense of things.



I just thought of another one! I've always pretty much assumed that Faith was been sexually abused as a child. It has never been confirmed but she shows all the signs :(
I believe that, too. There seem to be lots of hints to that effect.

Skippcomet
06-10-12, 09:44 PM
I believe that, too. There seem to be lots of hints to that effect.

I've a question, if we're going to assume that the Season 8 & 9 comics are indeed canon -- abused by whom? Because if that was intended, the Daddy Issues arc in A&F should have been the ideal time to introduce that idea into canon. But even though Faith's father was clearly not in the running for Father of the Year, there's nothing in the story (not in how he acts nor in how Faith acts) that, IMO, really backs up the idea that Faith was sexually abused. At least, not by her father. So, who then?

Stoney
06-10-12, 10:02 PM
Authority figures (school, church, drs etc) possibly, or other relatives, peers. Faith always gave the impression to me that she felt her body was a commodity to be traded with and that she felt emotionally distanced from herself. She was always clinical about sexual physical release which was what Robin called her on at the end of S7. I was disappointed that they didn't carry on that relationship into the comics properly, it was potentially interesting. Anyway, although there wasn't anything explicit in the show, the whole tone around her attitude implied she may have had issues in this area. At the very least that she saw sex as a potential tool rather than an expression of romantic emotions which had to have gained foundations somewhere. The 'want take have' mantra also fits in with a learnt power abuse.

I take your point that this could have been explored in A&F with her dad if he was an abuser and they wanted to go there but it wouldn't have been in keeping with what they were wanting in the arc from her side. Although it must be noted that the relationship between abuser and victim when it is between a parent/child dynamic is often immensely complicated and often mixes on the child's side with a desperation for approval and true connection. In fact, Faith's sudden mood swings with him could play into there being deeply complicated underlying issues. I don't think they did anything to explicitly rule it out in A&F personally with her dad but there are plenty of other options for an abuser role in her past.

I believe S8&9 are undisputed canon.

KingofCretins
07-10-12, 04:40 AM
I don't want to cross debate people's personal canon, but I've always thought that Faith is the way she is because it's the way she is. I'm always disinclined for the story to reach for abuse/trauma tropes, as they are so thoroughly worn out.

I don't know if I have a lot of personal canon, or maybe I just can't think of it. I was one of the first on the bandwagon that it was a Slayer that took out Angel's spies on the Decoy and that Andrew's escort for the evening were Slayers.

vampmogs
07-10-12, 06:40 AM
I just thought of another one! In Revelations, Gwendolyn Post is mocking Giles’s book collection and she asks him if he has a copy of Robert Kane’s Twilight Compendium and when Giles says that he does she seems amused and unimpressed – "Of course you do." My own personal canon is that it is actually a book written about the Twilight prophecy from S8 and that Gwendolyn acts so snobby about it because, as Giles says in the Twilight arc, it was always just regarded as a myth or “Watcher’s fairy tale.” She turns her nose up at it the way a historian would at the Da Vinci Code and it makes sense that she’d belittle Giles for having such a text.

I just love to think it was actually a reference to the Twilight story in the comics and Post's attitude towards it is just perfect. Also, that episode focuses a lot on the Buffy/Angel relationship and the possible danger that it poses so it's actually rather fitting (though I realise totally coincidental) that Twilight would be referenced in this of all episodes.

Emmie
07-10-12, 12:35 PM
Hey! I even wrote fic to the effect that Buffy brought Spike his duster while he was all crazycakes in the basement.

Here's one more. In "Get It Done," after Spike's been tossed through the ceiling and Dawn says "I'll go check on him," when he comes back down again to join the gang discussing a plan, he and Dawn share this strange tension. It makes me think that when she checked on him upstairs and he finally came to, she basically berated him for being a great big failure (something like "what are you good for anyways?"). Hence, giving him even more motivation to kill the demon and get Buffy back.

BuffySpike
07-10-12, 12:38 PM
I just thought of another one! I've always pretty much assumed that Faith was been sexually abused as a child. It has never been confirmed but she shows all the signs :(

Thats what I thought especially after season 8 No Future For You. I also heard that she beats her father up or something later?

:(

The fact she never lets anyone (men) close and they way she freaks out around men quite a bit suggests that she has been abused. She likes to feel in control most of the time during sex as well it seems.

She has real trust issues which immediately indicates that she has been possibly abused growing up not just physically but emotionally as well. She is a wall of defence by the time we meet her.

vampmogs
07-10-12, 12:43 PM
Hey! I even wrote fic to the effect that Buffy brought Spike his duster while he was all crazycakes in the basement.

Really? That's awesome :lol: I totally think it's possible she would have done that. I don't know how you fic goes but in my head I imagine her being very awkward but kind about it but Spike is barley lucid and doesn't really acknowledge it at all.


Here's one more. In "Get It Done", after Spike's been tossed through the ceiling, when he comes back down again, he and Dawn share this strange moment which always makes me think she was the one to go check on him upstairs and when he finally came to, she basically berated him for being a great big failure (something like "what are you good for anyways?"). Hence, giving him even more motivation to kill the demon and get Buffy back.

I could totally see that. I just rewatched that episode recently and when she says she'll go check on him she almost says it in an exasperated way. As if she's frustrated with him. And I also noticed that brief moment they share when he walks into the kitchen. Great idea!


Thats what I thought especially after season 8 No Future For You. I also heard that she beats her father up or something later?

:(

Yeah it was NFFY which pretty much sealed the deal for me as well. The way she reacts to being touched (and the vampire calling her a "worthless whore") really set alarm bells off for me. Plus, there are clear parallels going on with Faith/Gigi and Gigi admits to having been exposed to pedophiles as a child :sadwalk:

Emmie
07-10-12, 12:56 PM
Really? That's awesome :lol: I totally think it's possible she would have done that. I don't know how you fic goes but in my head I imagine her being very awkward but kind about it but Spike is barley lucid and doesn't really acknowledge it at all.

Yeah, I wrote (http://seasonal-spuffy.livejournal.com/436562.html) her as really standoffish and exasperated. Then Spike takes over with his crazy (which was quite fun to write). It's shippy but not too shippy, if you're interested -- I tried to keep it close to canon. ;)



I could totally see that. I just rewatched that episode recently and when she says she'll go check on him she almost says it in an exasperated way. As if she's frustrated with him. And I also noticed that brief moment they share when he walks into the kitchen. Great idea!

Riiiight. I felt like her "I'll go check on him" tone was surprisingly not uber-annoyed in contrast to how pissed she looks after he came back down and joined everyone in the kitchen, like she's bristling with anger that he's in her presence (that reaction shot focusing on Dawn when Kennedy is talking to Spike is just so loaded). It's like when she's not in the room with him, she can show some concern. The way she immediately offered to go check on him struck me as interesting -- she still cares. But I think once she actually made sure he was okay, all of Dawn's anger came out and she busted his chops, probably shaming him with way harsher "I'm badder than you" insults.

Now I'm trying to think of more of these and I'm drawing a blank. It's fun, though! I tend to think of these as fanfic opportunities. The canon fill-in-the-blank fics.

---

Oh, one more! Dawn's ability to translate ancient languages in Season 7, something that should be ridiculously hard to learn for a teenager much less one who's teaching herself -- this ability is fostered by her Keyness. Dawn having once contained multitudes and all that.

vampmogs
07-10-12, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I wrote (http://seasonal-spuffy.livejournal.com/436562.html) her as really standoffish and exasperated. Then Spike takes over with his crazy (which was quite fun to write). It's shippy but not too shippy, if you're interested -- I tried to keep it close to canon. ;)

I'll have a read, thanks! :)

Yeah they could easily be fanfic opportunities! I'm sure I have more but it takes a while for them to come back to me. The only other one I can think of for now is that I always assumed Willy leaves Sunnydale because he makes a bad deal with some of his demon regulars and has to split town because he can't afford to pay up. We're never told why he leaves ("If Willy were here..." "Well, Willy's not here") but I can't imagine it was good.

BuffySpike
07-10-12, 01:09 PM
Yeah it was NFFY which pretty much sealed the deal for me as well. The way she reacts to being touched (and the vampire calling her a "worthless whore") really set alarm bells off for me. Plus, there are clear parallels going on with Faith/Gigi and Gigi admits to having been exposed to pedophiles as a child :sadwalk:

You know those books by people who were physically and emotionally abused as children like A Child Called It? Then they also write about the people they grow up to be after such traumatic events. I've read two of them (the one I just mentioned) and another called Broken. The way these two people became as adults especially towards people who try to get close to them pretty much echoes what Faith is like towards people when it comes to love and allowing someone close. I'm not talking about being Psychotic but just the way she interacts with most men in her life.

The way she saw Richard as a father figure indicates that need of acceptance from a parental figure after traumatic physical and emotional abuse and neglect which may be a factor as to why she was so easily corrupted by him.

Stoney
07-10-12, 04:04 PM
Yeah, I wrote (http://seasonal-spuffy.livejournal.com/436562.html) her as really standoffish and exasperated. Then Spike takes over with his crazy (which was quite fun to write). It's shippy but not too shippy, if you're interested -- I tried to keep it close to canon. ;)

That's lovely Emmie, always happy to see any of your stuff. :D

MikeB
24-10-12, 06:25 AM
I still like to believe that Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” is canon and that possibly Spike and Dru : “Queen of Hearts” is canon. I like to believe that Juliet Landau’s Drusilla comics for IDW are canon. Joss had said that “Paint the Town Red” and Douglas Petrie’s Ring of Fire are canon, but Scott Allie doesn’t list them in the Buffyverse canon.


Other than those, I put my reasoning into things so that they can make sense:

* I maintain that the Powers That Be – or possibly Twilight – brought Buffy back to life in “Prophecy Girl” (1.12). The way Buffy ‘pops’ back to life fully aware and then seconds later coughs up the water, makes it highly unlikely that it was actually Xander’s CPR that brought her back to life. Also, she’s stronger and more powerful, something that doesn’t make much sense if she was just revived through CPR.

* I maintain that in “Becoming Part II” (2.22), Spike actually broke Drusilla’s neck or something and she became unconscious because of physical trauma and not a lack of oxygen.

* I maintain that Spike did some kind of spell so that Acathla would only swallow the area, or the mansion, or maybe all of Sunnydale. Otherwise, Dru being unconscious because of lack of oxygen makes no sense and Spike hauling out of the mansion makes no sense if Acathla is still going to be able to swallow the world (if Buffy fails).

* I maintain that Buffy’s ‘had a thing’ for Spike since “School Hard” (2.03). It’s the only reasonable explanation for why she didn’t kill him and for why she didn’t do a de-invite on him after “Becoming Part II” (2.22). It’s also the only reasonable explanation for why she didn’t kill vampire Harmony.

* I maintain that Drusilla is stronger than Kendra, Spike, Angel, Faith, and possibly Buffy. We actually saw her being stronger than Kendra, Angel, and Faith (in A&F).

* I maintain that Drusilla is the most powerful vampire in the Buffyverse.

* I maintain that it’s Spike’s just being made corporeal and Harmony’s drinking of him that made him in “Destiny” (A 5.12) not beat Angel more easily and is the reason that somehow he still had damage from that fight days later. Otherwise, the fight makes no sense, Angel being able to punch Spike hard enough to make his mouth bleed makes no sense, and Spike still showing damage days after that fight makes no sense. Buffy since perhaps “Becoming Part II” (2.22) is never shown to be able to hit Spike hard enough to make his mouth bleed. Spike healed quicker from Glory’s torture. And full-powered Illyria only made his mouth bleed after kicking him into a wall.


* I like to believe that William Pratt (Spike) still owns his estate and I like to believe that he has a lot of money somewhere. William seemed to be a member of the peerage and it seems the estate would go to him. And Spike talked about how he gave Drusilla jewels all the time and such. So, where would all those assets go? Spike wanted to live as a punk but does that really mean he incredibly stupidly decided to make himself a pauper?

* I like to believe that Angel used that bank robber’s money to lease the Hyperion and that ultimately that one billionaire guy financed Angel’s purchase of the Hyperion. Otherwise, it makes around zero sense that Angel and Co. could have afforded that place.

* I like to believe that AtS Angel/Darla and Angel/Cordelia are because of Jasmine.

_________________

* Faith was ‘promiscuous’ only in relation to the Scoobies. On AtS, it’s implied that Wesley was sleeping around and yet no one faults him for that. Faith’s issues on BtVS is about completely her-compared-to-Buffy: Faith’s socioeconomic background compared to Buffy, Faith’s mother compared to Buffy’s mother, Faith’s father compared to Buffy’s father (meaning Giles), Faith’s relationships compared to Buffy’s, Faith’s Watchers compared to Buffy’s Watchers. Faith ‘sleeping around’ doesn’t mean that she was sexually abused. And the guys from her area of Boston were maybe not the best ‘winners’ in terms of relationship-material.

Their backgrounds and experiences are what separate Buffy from Faith. It’s quite telling that once Faith has a mentor (Angel) that by the time of “Dirty Girls” (7.18), Faith can credibly ask if she’s now the good Slayer to Buffy’s bad Slayer. It’s quite telling that once Faith has a good father figure (Giles) in BtVS S8 Faith seemed more ‘evolved’ than Buffy. And although she’s being too much of an Angel apologist in A&F, she’s remarkably emotionally stable and is able to mentor Slayers in a way that seems superior to how Buffy was able to mentor the Potentials in BtVS S7.

* Faith liking to ‘be on top’ simply could be that that’s her favorite position. It’s a lot of women’s favorite position. Faith ‘freaking out’ with Riley could simply be because Riley thought she was Buffy.

* Faith doesn’t have trust issues. She’s immediately gregarious and open with the Scoobies and pretty much at the first opportunity tells Buffy what happened to her Watcher. If anything, she was too trusting re: Gwendolyn Post and Mayor Wilkins. Even Giles made her an assassin and that was for something that benefited Buffy and Giles also didn’t tell Faith about the SuperSlayer and SuperVampire Prophecy.



vampmogs


in AtS S4 Faith is attacked in prison by an inmate called "Deb" who is wielding a Bringer knife. Now, it's quite obvious that the First sent her to kill Faith but the actress who plays Deb is actually the same actress who plays Patrice, the Order of Taraka assassin who opens fire in Sunnydale High in BtVS S2. My own personal canon is that Patrice and Deb are actually infact the same person and that the First hired a Taraka assassin to take out Faith. I always believed this.

________

Cecily became Halfrek later on. The first flashback of Cecily as a vengeance demon was during the 1905 Russian Revolution.


Spike's leather duster was boxed up in the school basement (Get it Done) because Buffy held onto it after he left it on her banister in Seeing Red, and she returned it to him at some point in S7 when he was crazy and living underneath Sunnydale High. This is the only reasonable explanation. I actually believe that she probably wore it at points and even slept in it. She obviously had been missing Spike.


In Restless, during Buffy's dream she opens up an old leather bag which has the primordial ooze inside of it. Buffy paints it on her face which represents the primal Slayer/demon inside of her. This leather bag looks almost identical to Nikki Wood's leather bag in Get It Done which contained the origin story of the First Slayer (the shadow puppets) and was meant to be a Slayer keepsake and passed down through the generations. It's my personal canon that it is in fact the same bag and that Buffy was dreaming of the keepsake which would reveal where her power came from. It's simply too symbolic for me to think of it as just a coincidence, although I know it probably was. That’s fantastic. I never thought of that.


- Dawn generally feels neglected and ignored by the gang, especially in S5, Huh? Dawn was feeling neglected and ignored in BtVS S5. And she was being neglected and ignored by all but Tara.

Dawn would pretty much only have affected Hank, Joyce, and Buffy Summers. The other Scoobies would know about Dawn, but wouldn’t she wouldn’t be involved in Scooby things. Maybe Angel threatened Dawn. Maybe Dawn was there when Spike was there in “Becoming Part II” (2.22), though she could have also been at a friend’s house. Maybe Dawn was there in “Lovers Walk” (3.08), though she could have been somewhere else.


I’m generally not a fan of that retcon in Normal Again because there are too many instances in the earlier seasons where Buffy referenced Vampire Slaying and Joyce barely reacted at all, but in Ted it actually works. There really isn’t. The one main time was when Buffy had the fever and was in the hospital.

________________________________________________

Well, the ‘production reason’ for Hank’s absence is because Joss wanted to make Giles Buffy’s ‘father’. Hank in BtVS S1-4 seems possible. After Joyce died, not so much. The guy doesn’t even go to the funeral, and he has Buffy taking care of Dawn. Although, I maintain that Hank continued to pay Buffy’s credit cards and that’s the reason why Buffy and Dawn were able to wear such nice clothing and still live relatively well.



TimeTravellingBunny


in fact, if Halfrek is Cecily, then it is canon that she was already a demon when she met William in 1880, since she mentions in Selfless that she was with Anyanka in Russia during the Crimean war (1853-1856). No, she doesn’t. They were in the Russian Revolution of 1905.

_______________

Spike within a few days healed from Glory’s torture. And Spike in “Dead Things” (6.13) let Buffy beat on him and didn’t want her turning herself in. There was no reason that Buffy thought that Spike was breaking up with her and no longer wanted to be with her.



Emmie


In "Get It Done," after Spike's been tossed through the ceiling and Dawn says "I'll go check on him," when he comes back down again to join the gang discussing a plan, he and Dawn share this strange tension. It makes me think that when she checked on him upstairs and he finally came to, she basically berated him for being a great big failure (something like "what are you good for anyways?"). Hence, giving him even more motivation to kill the demon and get Buffy back. That doesn’t make sense. She volunteered to check up on him, which means she no longer hated him as much as she did in “Beneath You” (7.02). Also, it doesn’t make sense because Spike had helped her out in BtVS S5 and is perhaps the only reason she survived in “Bargaining” (6.01). The tension could simply be because Spike – seeing Dawn’s concern for him – tried to mend their relationship and that maybe offended and/or angered Dawn or whatever.

Faye
24-10-12, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by vampmogs
I just thought of another one! I've always pretty much assumed that Faith was been sexually abused as a child. It has never been confirmed but she shows all the signs

I believe that, too. There seem to be lots of hints to that effect.

Since I'm a big Faith fan I read the book "Go Ask Malice" which tells the story of Faith at the age of 15 before she went to Sunnydale. It's pretty interesting because the book reveals a lot of background information (e.g. where she got the tattoo etc.).

Well, as far as I remember (I read the book a longer time ago) it's not specifically mentioned that Faith was abused sexually. You have to know her mother didn't care about her at all. She was a drug addict and a prostitute. Her so called boyfriend was her procurer and got her the drugs, too. In one scene the mother's boyfriend tries to touch Faith but they're interrupted and well.. you know Faith, she was a tough kid. She had to be. At that time Faith thinks her father is dead because her mother told her so, but later it's revealed that he was in prison all along (just saying because some of you wondered whether he was the one who abused her). Faith visited him once. She got her "Five by five" from him btw.

redrevo
24-10-12, 10:29 PM
I personally believe that the "very dark power... about to rise in Sunnydale" that caused Mr. Zabuto to send Kendra there was not Drusilla, but Angelus.

In that case it seems a little odd that she would leave after the healing ritual was stopped in WML2, but I think that departure was weird regardless of why Kendra was in Sunnydale in the first place. Even if her job was to stop the ritual, Kendra didn't know that - otherwise she would have told Buffy and Giles the first chance she got - so there was no reason for her to leave of her own accord after (apparently) stopping it. And there was no reason for her Watcher to bring her back regardless of what her mission was: from her perspective it looked like she'd stopped the ritual, but by any metaphysical or mystical standards she clearly didn't; she didn't kill Drusilla or Spike; she didn't kill Angel. So I think her heading home after WML2 is difficult to explain, period.

I choose to believe that Kendra's Watcher was reading portents of Angelus, even if he didn't know exactly what he was seeing and thus couldn't tell Kendra anything substantial. Although it was probably not what the writers intended, this (mis)interpretation makes Kendra's arrival and departure a little more ominous on rewatch.

TimeTravellingBunny
25-10-12, 09:41 PM
Cecily became Halfrek later on. The first flashback of Cecily as a vengeance demon was during the 1905 Russian Revolution.

in fact, if Halfrek is Cecily, then it is canon that she was already a demon when she met William in 1880, since she mentions in Selfless that she was with Anyanka in Russia during the Crimean war (1853-1856).

TimeTravellingBunny

No, she doesn’t. They were in the Russian Revolution of 1905.
Yes, she does. Although I got the episode the quote comes from wrong - it's not in Selfless, but in Lessons.

HALFREK
Listen, Anya. I know I've always been a little competitive with you. I mean, there was that thing in the Crimean War. We laugh about it now. But the fact is, I've actually always looked up to you. You were the single-most hard-core vengeance demon on the roster, and everybody knew it. Do I have to mention Mrs. Cholgash?

ANYA
Hmm. Ha. Good times.

Stoney
27-10-12, 02:25 PM
Ah, just thought of a couple. I always assume that (1) other demons/vamps cleared out the treasure whilst Spike was distracted over the gem of Amara. Originally I considered that he may have squirrelled some away and that was the source of the money he was referring to with Buffy in the doublemeat palace but I work on the basis that (2) that is actually why he agreed to be involved with the demon eggs in his crypt (with whoever the doctor really was) and it was this sort of scheme he meant, or gambling poker, pool etc. I think that if he did have money already available from the treasure he may have tried to pass some on to Dawn in S6 as Buffy refused or it would have come up in S7 with him living in and the cost of all the potentials etc. So I assume he is without hidden wealth and that he missed his opportunity with the treasure because of his focus on the gem.

BuffySpike
27-10-12, 08:32 PM
Its always in my personal canon that not EVERYONE would have left Sunnydale before it collapsed. I mean that guy was still in his house.

I also feel that there was some bonding time between Andrew and Dawn and Buffy and Andrew which happened in offscreen-ville

Stoney
27-10-12, 08:35 PM
I have images now of Titanic-esque old dears huddled together just waiting to see it out. :(

BuffySpike
27-10-12, 08:49 PM
Ok is it wrong that made me laugh slightly?

vampmogs
28-10-12, 12:29 PM
Its always in my personal canon that not EVERYONE would have left Sunnydale before it collapsed. I mean that guy was still in his house.

I also feel that there was some bonding time between Andrew and Dawn and Buffy and Andrew which happened in offscreen-ville

S8 Spoilers

Well we know Amy and Warren didn't leave Sunnydale. General Voll's men find them down in the Sunnydale crater in #1!

zianna
28-10-12, 12:36 PM
S8 Spoilers

Well we know Amy and Warren didn't leave Sunnydale. General Voll's men find them down in the Sunnydale crater in #1!

And the million dollar question is

what they were eating all those years?
:xd

BuffySpike
28-10-12, 02:04 PM
Personally I see the comics as canon but more like a spiritual successor. They don't really seem like a proper continuation of the show in my eyes. A sort of emotional reset button has been pushed with each character in the comics so that they could still develop the characters in a story sense after the show. By the end of season 7 they had all pretty much reached the end of their development. By the time the comics start and we meet our characters, what happened in S7 (in developmental terms) has gone back on itself for example the interactions between Buffy and Faith, the interactions between Spike and Buffy, the interactions between Dawn and Buffy and Joss did say that if he would continue the TV show from where it left off and could get the entire cast back for it he would be perfectly happy changing everything he has created with the comics, he would toss it aside with ease to take the show where he would want it to go. It wouldn't be the same. They are two very different mediums.

Stoney
28-10-12, 03:06 PM
That won't happen though :(. JM I'm sure has said that he doesn't feel he could play Spike anymore. And he is right, as great as he still looks, he has aged too far from the show for it to work now. Although they did just bravely ignored the blatant physical changes in DB that happened from BtVS 1 to AtS 5 there should come a limit eventually!! They could of course pick it up x years after NFA and have them both shanshued...

TimeTravellingBunny
28-10-12, 03:24 PM
That won't happen though :(. JM I'm sure has said that he doesn't feel he could play Spike anymore. And he is right, as great as he still looks, he has aged too far from the show for it to work now. Although they did just bravely ignored the blatant physical changes in DB that happened from BtVS 1 to AtS 5 there should come a limit eventually!! They could of course pick it up x years after NFA and have them both shanshued...
Oddly enough, DB would be physically more suitable to play Angel now than he was in AtS season 5 - at least the last time I watched a Bones episode, he looked very fit and slimmer than in most AtS seasons. But he wouldn't, since he's busy with his current show.

Stoney
28-10-12, 03:40 PM
True, I did think when I saw an ad for Bones recently that he looked younger than he did in AtS 5. But having just finished rewatching S1 of BtVS, not showing him ageing drastically because he is a vamp is a ship that has already sailed. :D

BuffySpike
28-10-12, 03:57 PM
That won't happen though :(. JM I'm sure has said that he doesn't feel he could play Spike anymore. And he is right, as great as he still looks, he has aged too far from the show for it to work now. Although they did just bravely ignored the blatant physical changes in DB that happened from BtVS 1 to AtS 5 there should come a limit eventually!! They could of course pick it up x years after NFA and have them both shanshued...

That would be pretty damn awesome but then technically they still wouldn't look older than Buffy if they both shanshued recently.

I couldnt actually imagine any of them in their roles again, except maybe Faith. Eliza seems to have hardly changed.

Stoney
28-10-12, 05:51 PM
DB and JM always looked to have about 10 years on SMG so I don't think it would be a problem now because that gap would still look around right. Doesn't matter anyway, because it won't happen. :cry2:

KingofCretins
28-10-12, 06:22 PM
Eliza is agelessly beautiful and could probably still play Faith at Faith's own age. Sarah is no less lovely, but has aged into her age-identifiable beauty and could still play Buffy, but at Sarah's age or slightly younger, IMO. David and James... I'm sorry, immortality has gone right by both of them. We're watching in real time as its moving past Paul Wesley and Ian Somerhalder. Stephen Moyer and Alex Skaarsgaard were offered up as unaging after they had already pretty much reached what they're going to look like for the next 20 years.

I can't think of any of the Scoobies that could really play their characters at S8-S9 age. Michelle is probably the only one who could still do it. Aly, Nick, they're unmistakably adults now, and not just in the age of majority/college age finding themselves sense. They are past getting carded for anything short of running for Congress.

Ah, personal canon. Well, I have always preferred to think that the reason Xander put an arrow through that Bringer's hand in "Dirty Girls" is because that is where he wanted to put it; that he had made himself a marksman of some quality on his own time since he had never really been encouraged in any hand to hand training. And further, upon losing his eye, my personal canon is that he has spent free time ever since retraining his aim and is still a pretty good shot, which is why (canonically) he says he always carries a gun in Season 8.

Stoney
28-10-12, 08:37 PM
But they could place it however many years post NFA that they wanted to, so Alyson, Nick, SMG etc would all be moved forward within the story to their 30s, David and James shanshued and then obviously started ageing so were now exvamps in their 40s. They could all do that, it is close enough to their actual ages or would be a direct match because yeah, I think they all pretty much look the ages they are now. Michelle still looks incredibly young, she just has that kind of look so although she is in her late 20s and would within the story probably be around 30 she still looks early twenties and that is just unavoidable, it is the way she is so you just wouldn't worry about it. The beauty of going post NFA with shanshues in the mix is that everyone can be forwarded to where they roughly are so it works.

I like the canon on Xander. I can totally see him practicing his marksmanship with determination to not be 'useless' in the field and getting pretty skilled.

BuffySpike
28-10-12, 09:07 PM
DB and JM always looked to have about 10 years on SMG so I don't think it would be a problem now because that gap would still look around right. Doesn't matter anyway, because it won't happen. :cry2:

You kiddin me? James looked about 25 in season 6.

LOL one can still dream though. I actually think I might still totally watch it no matter how old the cast were. I could watch Buffy with a zimmer frame.

Stoney
28-10-12, 09:46 PM
I thought James looked around 30 in S6 and was actually around 40 so he was looking pretty damn fine, which visually put around 10 years between them. He could still easily pass 10 years younger than he is. SMG has always pretty much looked her age.

:wub: I'd love another TV series. *sigh* :sadwalk:

MikeB
27-11-12, 10:39 AM
All caught up



The actors’s ages: I’m forever surprised about posters on any Board saying that either David Boreanaz or James Marsters is now too old to play Angel or Spike, respectively. Have these people not seen the Terminator movies or Underworld ? Arnold looks way older with each movie. Kate Beckinsale in Underworld 4 looks way older than she did in the first two.

As for aging, I’ve seen the Resident Evil movies – which are low budget. And already in like the third one they were able to do special effects that had Milla Jovovich (Alice in the movies) looking as she did in the first one. And those are relatively low budget movies.

For people who know anything about the Buffyverse, unless David and James are wrinkled and whatnot, they’d accept them playing vampires.

For the rest of the cast, obviously the movie would be set some years after BtVS S7. None of the other cast look too old. This includes AtS people like Amy Acker. Charisma Carpenter has always looked over 10 years older than her character was supposed to be and Cordelia is dead anyway.

Eliza Dushku possibly actually looks younger than she did during BtVS S7. Unless it’s simply her makeup, that’s remarkable. She could probably do a Faith the Vampire Slayer series if she wanted. Joss Whedon could do it. Amy Acker could be Illyria (who is a popular character). Whedonverse writers could join. Nicholas Brendan could join and probably wouldn’t cost much. Depending on what James Marsters would be willing to do such a thing for, he could join.



Faye


Since I'm a big Faith fan I read the book "Go Ask Malice" which tells the story of Faith at the age of 15 before she went to Sunnydale. It's pretty interesting because the book reveals a lot of background information (e.g. where she got the tattoo etc.). Um, Go Ask Malice isn’t canon. I mention this in this thread because your post seems to suggest that you consider that book actual canon and not merely part of your ‘personal canon’.



redrevo


I personally believe that the "very dark power... about to rise in Sunnydale" that caused Mr. Zabuto to send Kendra there was not Drusilla, but Angelus. This idea seems based on Kendra not “knowing” that Drusilla was dust. The Order of Taraka was no longer after Buffy and the Scoobies were no longer concerned about Spike or Drusilla. So, if Buffy was acting as if Drusilla and Spike were dust, it’s reasonable that Kendra would act like that as well.

Being there for Angelus makes zero sense. Kendra arrived in “What’s My Line Part I” (2.09?) when Spike was getting very close to being capable of restoring Drusilla. Kendra didn’t arrive in “Surprise” (2.13). And Kendra didn’t come back again until “Becoming Part I” (2.21) and she was focused on stopping Acathla’s rise, not killing Angel. Plus, I don’t see any reason why Kendra’s Watcher would lie to her about why she was being sent to Sunnydale. If Kendra’s Watcher knew about the perfect happiness clause thing, he would have told Kendra to kill Angel. And if Kendra was told about it, she would have warned Buffy about it.



TimeTravellingBunny


From “Lessons” (7.01): HALFREK
Listen, Anya. I know I've always been a little competitive with you. I mean, there was that thing in the Crimean War. We laugh about it now. But the fact is, I've actually always looked up to you. You were the single-most hard-core vengeance demon on the roster, and everybody knew it. Do I have to mention Mrs. Cholgash?

ANYA
Hmm. Ha. Good times. Halfrek doesn’t say that she was in the Crimean War or was a vengeance demon during that time. The first flashback we see of her being a vengeance demon is in 1905. And that flashback is specifically after 1880 because the writers wanted to make sure that Cecily Addams was human when William knew her. This was in the commentary or something.

Anyway, for ‘shipping, if Cecily was a vengeance demon when William was in love with her, that would make Buffy the only mortal that Spike was ever in love with or that we’ve ever seen him in any kind of relationship with.

But anyway, Cecily isn’t presented as if she’s ‘new in town’. William seems to have known of her for some time; William’s mother knows the family. Anya was the new girl and we never hear of her family or anything. And if Cecily were a vengeance demon, it seems odd that she would bother with William or even be at that party unless she was there on business. Plus, why was Cecily asking shy and reserved when in 1905 she seems outgoing and ebullient.



Stoney


I always assume that (1) other demons/vamps cleared out the treasure whilst Spike was distracted over the gem of Amara. Harmony was still there. If someone else cleared out the treasure, the likeliest suspect is Giles himself. Vampires and demons would probably be too scared of Spike – if they knew about him – to steal from him. Harmony left Giles and Xander, and while Xander is still broke in BtVS S4, in BtVS S8 we see that Giles had a lot of money .


Originally I considered that he may have squirrelled some away and that was the source of the money he was referring to with Buffy in the doublemeat palace but I work on the basis that (2) that is actually why he agreed to be involved with the demon eggs in his crypt (with whoever the doctor really was) and it was this sort of scheme he meant, or gambling poker, pool etc. I think that if he did have money already available from the treasure he may have tried to pass some on to Dawn in S6 as Buffy refused or it would have come up in S7 with him living in and the cost of all the potentials etc. So I assume he is without hidden wealth and that he missed his opportunity with the treasure because of his focus on the gem. Dawn doesn’t know how to launder money. A chipped Spike wasn’t going to announce to the Scoobies that he had a lot of wealth. In BtVS S7, Buffy and Co. didn’t seem to need money. And Spike was staying in Xander’s place and then in Buffy’s basement to be close to Buffy. And it’s not as if Spike would be confident that if he got his own place that Buffy would move in with him, so there wasn’t much reason to get his own place anyway.

Anyway, my reasoning is based off of if he still owns the Pratt estate and things like that. That would cost a lot of money. Also, I reason that he paid for Clem’s suit that Clem wore at the Xander-Anya wedding and that Spike bought Clem that VW Beetle that Clem has in BtVS S7. Spike could also be supporting Drusilla to some degree. Maybe she uses his money to buy clothing and jewelry. Who knows. If Angel somehow had money to rent rooms in expensive hotels, rent apartments after being a bum for 20 years, and rent the Hyperion and pay the expenses for that, why can’t Spike had a ton of money. And Liam died before his parents died and therefore would have no way to inherit anything. William technically could have inherited everything and somehow legally continued owning the estate and other stuff.

zianna
27-11-12, 08:04 PM
I always like to think that those ubervamps in Chosen were easily killed because they weren't ready yet. The First was preparing its army, producing ubervamps that needed some time to grow and become stronger. The first ubervamp that Buffy fought, was a ready one, that's why Buffy had such a hard time killing it. The rest were inside the hell dimension, and the First would have released them in our world through the Hellmouth, once they were ready. That's why they were so easily killed, even by someone with Dawn's and Anya's strength.

Stoney
27-11-12, 08:58 PM
Ha! I am willing to jump on the bandwagon of any personal canon and adopt it like a much loved child if it helps to reduce the crapness of the flaws in Chosen, thanks zianna. :D

TimeTravellingBunny
27-11-12, 10:59 PM
TimeTravellingBunny

Halfrek doesn’t say that she was in the Crimean War or was a vengeance demon during that time. The first flashback we see of her being a vengeance demon is in 1905. And that flashback is specifically after 1880 because the writers wanted to make sure that Cecily Addams was human when William knew her. This was in the commentary or something.
Then if she wasn't a demon during the Crimean war, what was she? The war happened 1853-1856, 24-27 years before William met Cecily, at the time supposedly a young woman of marrying age, which was very young back them. If she was human, at the very best she could have only been a toddler during the Crimean war, or more likely wasn't even born. So what could an English child been doing in the Crimean war?! And how could she have been "competitive" with Anyanka, an ancient vengeance demon of adult appearance?!


Anyway, for ‘shipping, if Cecily was a vengeance demon when William was in love with her, that would make Buffy the only mortal that Spike was ever in love with or that we’ve ever seen him in any kind of relationship with.

But anyway, Cecily isn’t presented as if she’s ‘new in town’. William seems to have known of her for some time; William’s mother knows the family. Anya was the new girl and we never hear of her family or anything. And if Cecily were a vengeance demon, it seems odd that she would bother with William or even be at that party unless she was there on business.
And maybe she was on business.
(BTW, this is exactly the premise of Peter David's non-canon comic about Halfrek and Spike.)


Plus, why was Cecily asking shy and reserved when in 1905 she seems outgoing and ebullient.

Because she was posing as a Victorian lady, and Victorian ladies were meant to be shy, demure and reserved rather than outgoing and bubbly.



Anyway, my reasoning is based off of if he still owns the Pratt estate and things like that. That would cost a lot of money.

I don't believe he does. He's been officially dead since 1880. Dead men can't claim their estate. The estate must have been inherited by relatives or whoever had the right to inherit it over 120 years ago.

KingofCretins
28-11-12, 01:59 AM
My explanation of the Badass Decay/Conservation of Ninjutsu of the ubervamps but deciding that the first one, the one summoned with Spike's blood, was (off screen) given the same sort of Evil Infusion that Caleb would later get, that it was the First's nominal champion, getting First-roids or Evil-tine or whatever.

I think if Spike had any sort of substantial wealth, he wouldn't have suffered the indignity of trying to scare people for beer and blood money. And if he were genuinely loaded, I think he'd have lived much more like the rock star whose aesthetic he shared. He'd have been a Russell Winters sort of vampire, but instead of a real estate mogul, more of a "lost member of Spinal Tap"/Driveshaft I'm-a-bloody-rock-god Logan Echols sort of thing.

Ah, more personal canon. I have always had the notion that an unpublished benefit of Slayer-ness is natural weapon affinity, like an abstract, intuitive understanding. The thought comes from two places -- one, the way in which Buffy expertly and inattentively disassembles Jonathan's rifle in "Earshot", and the other from completely outside the Buffyverse, Stephen King's "Dark Tower", where the small cadre of gunslingers therein have a tendency when they have a new weapon on hand to just master it after a moment's close study and consideration. I always thought it would be cool if that were true of Buffy/Slayers, and since there's nothing that really makes it implausible, I adopted it.

vampmogs
28-11-12, 03:12 AM
I think if Spike had any sort of substantial wealth, he wouldn't have suffered the indignity of trying to scare people for beer and blood money.

Exactly. Not to mention working for the Scoobies throughout S4 or early S5 whenever he was in need of some, as he put it, "monetary gratification." It was a running theme that Spike would trade her services in exchange for cash. If her were wealthy he wouldn't be asking Xander for money so he could rent out a hotel room, he wouldn’t be scaring people to get their money, and the Scoobies wouldn't have stumbled upon him scavenging through mounds of rubbish at the city dump.

Spike was not wealthy. The writing was pretty consistent in portraying him as someone in constant need of money. It’s another method they used to show how far he had fallen since having the chip implanted. As you say, it was portrayed as embarrassing and undignified that he had to resort to jumping out at people to get by. It makes absolutely no sense that he would be so desperate for money if he had a secret stash hidden away and it makes even less sense that he somehow benefited from the “Pratt estate” when he’s been dead for over a century. How was a dead guy going to claim his inheritance?

In the Buffyverse, vampires had very little need for money. They poke fun at Harmony for caring about bargains in Family;

HARMONY: Uhh, it was so exciting. You wouldn't believe it. I went to April Fool's, and absolutely everything was on sale.

SPIKE: You *paid* for it?

HARMONY: (unpacking bags) Oh, no. I just killed the clerk. Still, a bargain's a bargain. (Spike frowns and shakes his head)

The only reason it was an issue for Angel, and later Spike, was because unlike other vampires they wouldn't (or couldn't) just kill people and take whatever they want. Does anyone believe for one moment that Angelus would have actually paid for the mansion in Sunnydale? Of course not! It would have either been abandoned or he would have simply killed whomever owned it. On the other hand, we see him discussing how he's going to pay for the Hyperion because ensouled Angel is no longer in the business of killing and taking whatever he wanted. The demon world in general cares very little about money. It's something they’ve played with in S9 since the destruction of magic and the 'outing' of vampires and other supernatural creatures, with demons suddenly having to enter the workforce (the bellhop, the debt collector etc) in order to survive. Prior to S8 money had been pretty much a non-issue to the vast majority of demons. After all, it's a world where they substituted money for kittens.

BuffySpike
28-11-12, 07:16 PM
.

I think if Spike had any sort of substantial wealth, he wouldn't have suffered the indignity of trying to scare people for beer and blood money.

I wonder why he never went back to take all that treasure he and Harmony found in season 4.

Artea
28-11-12, 07:35 PM
He could've used his super strength to break into stores and cleaned out the cash registers. Ditto for stealing blood bags from hospitals. And since intimidation/threats don't trigger the chip, he could've just gotten a gun and robbed a bank.


Exactly. Not to mention working for the Scoobies throughout S4 or early S5 whenever he was in need of some, as he put it, "monetary gratification." It was a running theme that Spike would trade her services in exchange for cash. If her were wealthy he wouldn't be asking Xander for money so he could rent out a hotel room, he wouldn’t be scaring people to get their money, and the Scoobies wouldn't have stumbled upon him scavenging through mounds of rubbish at the city dump.If Spike had any working braincells, he wouldn't be hanging out with a group of vampire hunters who have spend years trying to kill him. Pretty much nothing about Spike's post-S2 story makes any sort of logical sense.

Stoney
28-11-12, 08:03 PM
I wonder why he never went back to take all that treasure he and Harmony found in season 4.

That was where it was originally raised. My personal canon that he got distracted by the ring and someone else must have cleared it out because he didn't gain wealth from it.


If Spike had any working braincells, he wouldn't be hanging out with a group of vampire hunters who have spend years trying to kill him.

Obviously, as with most things, the story was contrived but the reason Spike went to Buffy et al was because he was scared and had commandoes chasing him and they are the do-gooders who could help him. He probably didn't trust other vamps at that point who could choose to pick him off as far as he was aware he couldn't defend himself, couldn't attack or be violent without the chip firing.


Pretty much nothing about Spike's post-S2 story makes any sort of logical sense.


Not if you can't see any possibility of genuine good in him maybe but lets not turn the thread into another attack/defend scenario on Spike's character worth.

Artea
28-11-12, 08:27 PM
Not if you can't see any possibility of genuine good in him maybe but lets not turn the thread into another attack/defend scenario on Spike's character worth.I was talking about Spike's intelligence, not his capacity for goodness.


the story was contrivedGood to know we can agree on something. :)

KingofCretins
28-11-12, 08:39 PM
This was a pretty good thread before the Spike war that's about to break out. Just thought I'd say so.

Personal canon about anything else, ever -- Dawn is biologically Buffy's daughter, not her sister or her clone. Totally stealing that from a fanfic someone else wrote, but it was an idea that I found fascinating.

BloodyHell
28-11-12, 08:50 PM
Plus, why was Cecily asking shy and reserved when in 1905 she seems outgoing and ebullient.

At least she was always effulgent.

I know back in the day I used to have a ton of personal canon. I just haven't rewatched in so long I've forgotten most of it. Reading this thread jogged by memory a lot though...especially about the uber-vamps being so easy to kill in Chosen.

I'll have to think about it and come back.

Artea
28-11-12, 08:51 PM
So me complaining about the writers dumbing Spike down is proof I am some big meanie who wants to start a Spike war? Okay...

As for personal canon, does anyone else think Buffy's dream in 'Surprise' is a prophetic one? Drusilla staking Angel could allude to her preventing the re-ensouling in 'Passion' and 'Becoming'. Or maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit...

kana
29-11-12, 09:37 AM
A lot of these are Ats related and all of them are rather "out there", but please be kind when you're tearing them to pieces!

Now I was somewhat hesitent to post these as I'm rarely one for speculation but nevertheless I'll put them out there.


I Will Remember You was a set up

I've always suspected that the Oracles were manipulating Angel into becoming a vampire again. Now I have several scenarios

Scenario 1: It was a test.
Basically the PTBs were testing Angel to see if he would choose the mission over the pleasures of the flesh. If he chose the pleasures of the flesh, then he wasn't the champion they thought he was and therefore would be better off without him, but as he chose the mission it proved to them that he is 'not a lower being'. In other words he passed.

Scenario 2: The PTBs thought that Angel as a vampire was more useful
We know that humans can fight the good fight but we have to admit that supernatural warriors help, a lot!!!
It may be that Angel becoming human really did happen by chance and the PTBs sought to rectify that.

It's possible that they manipulated Angel into 'choosing' to take back the day, so they could have their vampire warrior. It's possible that they knew Buffy would die anyway in a year or so, but used that line to scare Angel into taking back the day. So why not simply changed Angel back into a vampire against his will? Well, maybe it wasn't possible for them to do so or they didn't want to interfere to much with free will etc.
Scenario 3: Jasmine wanted Angel as a vampire to make her impossible birth, possible.

This is similar to scenario 2 but Jasmine is the one pulling the strings.

There really are "timetables and rules".

This refers to Sahjhan's plan to prevent Connor's existence and how, well, flawed it was. Now we know that despite being incorporeal, Sahjhan can hire demons, travel through time and transport beings through time as well. Why not hire a demon to kill human Darla or even Liam? Surely that would have been easier than recruiting Holtz who had his own agenda, transporting him to a time when Connor's birth was imminent, and pitting him against Angel who not only had a soul (meaning the Holtz may have had moral issues with killing him. He didn't, but Sahjhan couldn't guarantee that) but was a lot older and more powerful than he was all those years ago and would be more likely and inclined to protect Connor.

So maybe Sahjhan wasn't lying when he said there are timetables and rules. Maybe his time traveling abilities are limited. He implied this here:

"Hey! You think my life is easy? I'm jumping from one dimension to another. I don't always have sound. Sometimes it's just a visual. "

So maybe his interaction is limited as well.

Cordelia's vision, actually was a vision!!!!

Ok so this sentence doesn't make much sense but it's referring to the vision she had in the episode 'Tomorrow'.

My issue is this: Cordelia only gets visions of people in danger. So my thought was that this vision is no different. It shows her accepting Skip's offer to become a higher being which lest we forget, led to her eventual death. It seems that the Powers were trying to warn her about Jasmine. So why so vague? Actually scratch that. Why so misleading? It's possible that the Powers were not able to be more specific in their visions. I mean the vision she had of Angel in danger didn't mention Connor and in the end was kind of useless. Alternatively maybe Jasmine 'edited' the message so her plan can go ahead.

The Ninja Cyborgs knew about Twilight

The Ninja Cyborgs in Lineage seemed to want to take away Angel's will, so they could use him for their end. It seemed they were a force for good as well. Interestingly the Rogerbot said to Wesley that Angel is more dangerous than he realizes. Wes assumed he was talking about Angel being a vampire, but perhaps they knew exactly how dangerous Angel was going to be and the line about him being a puppet? Well we all know Season 8 panned out...

Jasmine's arrival was both the ruination and purification of mankind...

...Depending on your perspective. Wes translated a verse in the Nyazian Scroll stating that the Tro-Clon would lead to the ruination or purification of mankind. If Jasmine was the result of the Tro Clon, then maybe her arrival can be seen in two ways depending on one's perspective. World peace can be seen as the purification, but lacking free will can seen as our ruination. Or maybe the terms can be used interchangeably to account for the reign and defeat of Jasmine


The powerful control everything...except our will to choose

This is kind of a general point. While I believe that in the Verse there are forces beyond our heroes control, I believe choice matters. I believe this first and formost from a narrative perspective. How unsatisfying would the series be if everything was down to the higher powers and fate?
This also applies to Jasmine. All she was in my eyes was a powerful manipulator, but she didn't 'control' everything that the Fang Gang were doing. Powerful manipulators don't have to negate free will, they just know how to influence events to get what they want. I mean, heck, Holland and Holtz were great at manipulation and they were just mortal human beings, so it stands to reason that if Jasmine has been around for millenia that she'd be ok at it!!!!
I mean let's look at it this way: Skip said that it's not just everything that happened in the past few years to Cordy that led to Jasmine's ascension, it goes further. How far? We could argue that Buffy and Spike or anyone who is tenuously linked with Angel were being controlled by Jasmine, just so everything was 'just right' and happened at the right time.
Skip then said, their choices don't matter and they are all puppets. So why does he get so nervous when they begin figure out how to stop it? Seen as Skip is working for Jasmine, (he actually states that he was still working for her even he was in the hotel "Do you mind, I'm working here") he's not exactly a reliable source of information. However, as I'm usually diplomatic in most cases, I have to admit it's a possibility, but this doesn't steal anything from Gunn's speech. The best thing is to assume free will because you never know when and if that choice is going to count.
I mean we can assume that Jasmine isn't all powerful and all knowing seen as she had to do a lot of messing around to bring herself into existence and she didn't even predict her own demise. So maybe even the PTBs are subject to rules and timetables beyond their control. Or maybe there are several levels of existence and the PTBs are just one of them. Cordy was on the higher plane and she stated something about being limited in her interaction in the world.

That's all for now, but like a I said, these are kind of 'out there'.

BuffySpike
03-12-12, 09:22 PM
This was a pretty good thread before the Spike war that's about to break out. Just thought I'd say so.

Personal canon about anything else, ever -- Dawn is biologically Buffy's daughter, not her sister or her clone. Totally stealing that from a fanfic someone else wrote, but it was an idea that I found fascinating.

Its my personal canon that she was made from Buffy and carries a lot of Buffy's negative personality traits (and they were magnified because she was a teen) which is why Buffy found her so irritating in season 5 :roll:

Vampire in Rug
18-12-12, 01:29 AM
I believe that Slayers in the past could "sense" vampires and demons by "honing in". I think that Buffy never really bothered to develop this skill, and therefore the many Slayers after Buffy also never bothered to develop this skill and now it's mostly lost.

I believe that Giles was always pretty lenient as far as Watcher standards go, and the decision to make him Buffy's Watcher was very controversial in the Council and he was still regarded as a bit of a bad boy. Giles was only able to prove himself after working so damn hard and proving himself.

I love the idea that the "Twilight Compendium" was about the Twilight prophecy.

I think that when the First Evil/Warren said to Andrew "that's the worst attempted pig slaughtering I've ever seen", the First wasn't merely impersonating Warren's sarcasm. I believe that the First was being 100% sincere and that in all the millennia of existence, that truly was the worst attempt at killing a pig that the First had witnessed.

I believe that demons are just inherently easier to resurrect than humans, especially if the demon's corpse is still around. I believe that after time, or if a demon is killed "properly", it's body will turn to goo. I think we had Willow twice question why a demon's body didn't go "poof", and Cordelia once described killed demons as being an oozing pile of mess. It's always kind of bothered me that some demons leave corpses behind and others turn to dust/sand/ooze/smoke/stone. The whole purpose of vampires turning to dust was so that the writers didn't have to explain where Buffy hid the corpses. My fanwank is that if a demon is killed "properly", it's body disintegrates somehow as we've seen some demons do. If it's killed with the standard neck snap or sword through the gut, the demon spirit goes into limbo and the corpse just kind of lies around for a while and if somebody is inclined to do so, they could do a spell to resurrect the demon because it hasn't been killed "properly". Usually, its safe enough to just bury the corpse because unless the demon was an important figure, probably nobody will bother to resurrect said demon. After time, the corpse will starve and rot without the demon spirit animating it. Killing the demon "properly" might involve some ritual where you submerge the body in water, cut out the eyes, pour salt over it or whatever. If one wanted to go the whole nine yards and really make sure the demon was dead for good, one would have to research the weakness that's specific to that demon and once the demon has been killed in that particular way the body will turn to ooze. If one doesn't have the time/motivation/resources for all that, then incapitating the body and burying it will usually be enough.

I think that the novel "Go Ask Malice" and most of the IDW comics are good enough to be considered possible canon, and I accept them into my head-canon.

I believe that when Illyria spoke about nightmares that would dance and skewer people, she's talking about the kind of weird stuff that took place in the BtVS season 1 episode "Nightmares" where people were being literally attacked by their subconscious. In Illyria's day, I think that kind of stuff would have been commonplace.

I think Buffy never told Wood about Spike being alive again so that Wood could finally have closure about his mother's killer.

In some of the old, non-canon Dark Horse Buffy comics, the reason why Buffy was institutionalized is because little Dawn discovered Buffy's diaries where she talks about killing vampires and shows it to Joyce. The idea that Buffy had been in an institution always seemed to come out of nowhere in the show and was something that should have been mentioned when Buffy was "coming out" to Joyce. I like the idea in the comics that it was because of something Dawn did. So prior to Dawn's existence, Buffy hadn't been in an institution. Post-Dawn's existance, it was something that Buffy remembered because the memory involved something that Dawn was crucial in. Being in the institution was one of the many things that had been retconned into Buffy's past with the inclusion of Dawn.

Darla, Spike, Dru and the Master all call Angel by the name "Angel" in the early seasons. I never liked how AtS season 4 made such a big deal about the supposed distinction between "Angel" and "Angelus". I think that back in the day, the people who were close to Angelus often just called him "Angel" as an abbreviated form of his name. I think that Angelus was talking shit when he claimed to not like Barry Manilow. I think he shares all of Angel's tastes, but since he's evil he's embarrassed about liking Barry Manilow and therefore pretends that it's something "Angel" likes, but not him.

I think one of Drusilla's aquantences at Mosaic pointed her towards the Lorophange demon.

I always found it ridiculous in BtVS season 2 that Angelus never killed anyone important until Jenny was trying to restore his soul. Realistically, he should have killed Joyce or Xander or Willow or Willow's parents or anyone. The only "important" death we got was Jenny and that was arguably in an act of self defence. My fanwank for that is that Angel wanted his torment of Buffy to be long and drawn out, he knew that she couldn't bring herself to kill him because she still loved him, and he wanted to keep her in that state for as long as possible while still tormenting her. He knew that if he went ahead and killed Joyce/Xander/Oz then he would be forcing Buffy's hand and she'd then be obliged to kill him. Angel knew that if he killed someone "important" then his games with Buffy would be over and he'd have to have a showdown where either himself or Buffy killed the other. Sure, he'd kill Xander or Willow if the opportunity presented itself (such as on the rooftop in BB&B), he was a vampire after all. But he wouldn't go actively looking for opportunities to kill the scoobies. He wouldn't just decide to burn Xander's house to the ground, or kill Willow's parents (which he could easily have done) because an act of that magnitude would force Buffy's hand to act and he was having so much fun tormenting her. It was all about keeping the balance, to make Buffy feel terrible but not too terrible that she'd have to grab a stake and do something about it.

Stoney
18-12-12, 01:49 AM
I think that when the First Evil/Warren said to Andrew "that's the worst attempted pig slaughtering I've ever seen", the First wasn't merely impersonating Warren's sarcasm. I believe that the First was being 100% sincere and that in all the millennia of existence, that truly was the worst attempt at killing a pig that the First had witnessed.

Thank you. This made me laugh to the point of tears, brilliant. :xd

Vampire in Rug
18-12-12, 02:28 AM
Thanks Stoney I'm glad you liked :) I often think of that whenever I rewatch the episode. Because I imagine that the First Evil has witnessed a lot of sacrificial pig slaugterings and I like the idea that Andrew screwed it up worse than anyone else in history.

I thought of a couple more:

I think that Buffy chose not to kill Spike in Halloween because children were near and she didn't want to put them in danger and she didn't want to traumatize them by killing Spike in front of them.

I think that Angel wanted to open Acathla because causing an apocalypse is the "ultimate sin" there is really nothing that can top that, ending the world is the worst thing you can do.

I think that hypnotism is a rare genetic gift that very few vampires are just lucky enough to get.

I think that when Lorne was running Caritas, he had a lot of mental barriers set so that he wasn't looking too deeply into people's pasts because there were likely some things his customers had done that he didn't want to know about.

I think part of the reason Angel had Illyria assassinate Izziral and his two human buddies in the Black Thorne is because killing humans is a morally messy area and Angel felt better about having Illyria do it than having one of his human friends stain their soul by assassinating two unsuspecting humans. This is perhaps the reason why he had Lorne assassinate Lindsey. Using demons to kill humans was perhaps more palatable to Angel than killing the humans himself or asking his human friends to do it.

I think back in ancient times, the First Evil guided a whole tribe of caveman vampires down into the hellmouth so that they could eventually become the Turok-Han army. I think the whole thing was planned for millennia.

I think Twilight is a force of nature that just wants to exist. Our universe no doubt screwed over a previous universe by being birthed into existence. Twilight wanting to exist (like every other creature does) is of course no comfort whatsoever to the people living in our universe who will die horribly when Twilight is birthed. But I don't think Twilight was a mustache twirler like the First Evil or W&H or Angelus. I see Twilight more of a "Galactus" villain than a "Red Skull" or "Loki" villian.

Rihannon
18-12-12, 03:34 AM
I know I'm behind in this thread but, I just had to say:


That won't happen though :(. JM I'm sure has said that he doesn't feel he could play Spike anymore. And he is right, as great as he still looks, he has aged too far from the show for it to work now. Although they did just bravely ignored the blatant physical changes in DB that happened from BtVS 1 to AtS 5 there should come a limit eventually!! They could of course pick it up x years after NFA and have them both shanshued...

OMG!!! If only!!!:heart::heart::heart:

About personal canon stuff:

I'd given some thought to how come Dawn can be physically different to Buffy if she is in fact "made of her". This implies that the monks used her genetic material, not from her parents. Biologically speaking, she can't be Buffy's clone because this means she would be her exact copy, and we know she is not.

She can't be her daughter in a regular way, because that would mean Dawn would have half genetic material from Buffy and half from someone else (we could have a lot of fun speculating who the donor can be ! :xd).

So, what is left (or that I can think of) would be some kind of mystical parthenogenesis. If this is the case, Dawn would be made of her recombined genetic material (as parthenogenetic offspring develops from a single ovule that has been recombined via meiosis). This would explain how some recessive (not expressed) traits that Buffy could carry would show in Dawn's appearance (i.e. blue eyes, brown hair...).

About season 8:
I'd been always kind of bugged by how Buffy wasn't more affected by Spike showing up with his bug ship after all the time that passed and everything, even if she had other things in her mind at the moment.

So, I think it would be possible that they had at least a phone conversation at some point, or something. After all, she says "sorry I hadn't been in touch" as if she actually had a way to do so.

Vampire in Rug
24-12-12, 01:17 AM
I like to think that Holden Webster and Knox were possibly related.

In the comics...

It always bugged me that Willow turned Angel/Twilight into a frog, then turned him back. It's that type of crap that makes magic an overpowered plot device. If Willow can turn the ultimate big bad into a frog, there should be no threat for the scoobies ever.That scene makes Twilight look pretty pathetic. So my fanwank for that is that Twilight's invulnerability includes built in magical defences. Willow turned him into a frog, but after a few moments, he turned himself back.

Rihannon
29-12-12, 03:26 PM
In the comics...

It always bugged me that Willow turned Angel/Twilight into a frog, then turned him back. It's that type of crap that makes magic an overpowered plot device. If Willow can turn the ultimate big bad into a frog, there should be no threat for the scoobies ever.That scene makes Twilight look pretty pathetic. So my fanwank for that is that Twilight's invulnerability includes built in magical defences. Willow turned him into a frog, but after a few moments, he turned himself back.

Makes sense.

Bittersweettwit
29-12-12, 05:01 PM
In some of the old, non-canon Dark Horse Buffy comics, the reason why Buffy was institutionalized is because little Dawn discovered Buffy's diaries where she talks about killing vampires and shows it to Joyce. The idea that Buffy had been in an institution always seemed to come out of nowhere in the show and was something that should have been mentioned when Buffy was "coming out" to Joyce. I like the idea in the comics that it was because of something Dawn did. So prior to Dawn's existence, Buffy hadn't been in an institution. Post-Dawn's existance, it was something that Buffy remembered because the memory involved something that Dawn was crucial in. Being in the institution was one of the many things that had been retconned into Buffy's past with the inclusion of Dawn.

Just wanted to post and say that this has always been a head canon of mine also! It completely explains Joyce's complete shock and unfamiliarity with the concept of Buffy being the vampire slayer as shown in Becoming and early season 3, while making the reveal in Normal Again make sense without it necessarily being a stupid inconsistency on the writers part :D

Gemini9857
29-12-12, 08:56 PM
In some of the old, non-canon Dark Horse Buffy comics, the reason why Buffy was institutionalized is because little Dawn discovered Buffy's diaries where she talks about killing vampires and shows it to Joyce. The idea that Buffy had been in an institution always seemed to come out of nowhere in the show and was something that should have been mentioned when Buffy was "coming out" to Joyce. I like the idea in the comics that it was because of something Dawn did. So prior to Dawn's existence, Buffy hadn't been in an institution. Post-Dawn's existance, it was something that Buffy remembered because the memory involved something that Dawn was crucial in. Being in the institution was one of the many things that had been retconned into Buffy's past with the inclusion of Dawn.

Darla, Spike, Dru and the Master all call Angel by the name "Angel" in the early seasons. I never liked how AtS season 4 made such a big deal about the supposed distinction between "Angel" and "Angelus". I think that back in the day, the people who were close to Angelus often just called him "Angel" as an abbreviated form of his name. I think that Angelus was talking shit when he claimed to not like Barry Manilow. I think he shares all of Angel's tastes, but since he's evil he's embarrassed about liking Barry Manilow and therefore pretends that it's something "Angel" likes, but not him.


I always found it ridiculous in BtVS season 2 that Angelus never killed anyone important until Jenny was trying to restore his soul. Realistically, he should have killed Joyce or Xander or Willow or Willow's parents or anyone.

I totally agree with you about Buffy being in an institution. It makes complete sense to me that Dawn would have been nosy and found out and told her parents. When Joyce find out about Buffy at the end of Season 2 she just seems so shocked and completely clueless. I also think it's horrible that the monks would alter events like that.

I also do agree with you about Angel. The Angel vs Angelus thing never made any sense to me in Season 4, which is one of the reasons I have such a difficult time watching that season. I think maybe Team Angel wished it was true because it made them feel better about Angel. Even in Angel Season 2 Darla was calling him both Angel and Angelus (which is what Spike & Dru were doing in Buffy Season 2). I think he probably went by Angelus until he moved to the US, and then decided to change his name to Angel. But, it's not any different than Spike changing his name from William the Bloody. I don't view Angel as being two separate entities - he's always the same guy, he just acts different with and without a soul the same as anyone else. Both Darla & Spike have also had souls and nobody seemed to really see them as being completely different people.

I also agree that Angel should have killed more people. I think the main reason he didn't though was Joss didn't want to kill of the main cast (both on Buffy and in Angel Season 4). Angel was going to kill Xander in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered but Drusilla ended up saving him and then the mob of girls saved him from Drusilla. I also think Drusilla was right on the money when she observed in "Innocence" that Angel wanted to do to Buffy what he had done to her, so Angel wanted to mentally torment her and he probably intended on killing everyone gradually and then possibly turning Buffy into a vampire once they were all dead, if he could.

MikeB
15-01-13, 09:32 AM
All caught up


* Dawn does look like she could genetically be from Hank and Joyce.

Buffy was born with blonde hair but we see her hair is brown later on. Buffy later on simply dyed her hair. Buffy had hazel eyes that can sometimes be green. It’s not at all far-fetched that Dawn has a few more blue alleles than Buffy.

Siblings can have different heights so that’s not a disqualifier.




TimeTravellingBunny

* When talking about the Crimean War, Halfrek could have simply been referring to something that Anyanka did.


Because she was posing as a Victorian lady, and Victorian ladies were meant to be shy, demure and reserved rather than outgoing and bubbly. Huh? None of the other ladies in the “Fool For Love” (5.07) flashback were shown as being shy, demure, and reserved.


He's been officially dead since 1880. According to what? We never hear of a death certificate being made for him. And we see that vampires can have lawyers. And if Spike was a member of the peerage, the estate would always remain in the family anyway and so it seems it’d be relatively easy for him to have owned the Pratt estate this entire time. And even if descendants legally own the estate, Spike could still easily have access to the estate.



KingofCretins


I think if Spike had any sort of substantial wealth, he wouldn't have suffered the indignity of trying to scare people for beer and blood money. He wanted to be scary to humans and so scaring people for money had twin benefits of scaring people and robbing them.


And if he were genuinely loaded, I think he'd have lived much more like the rock star whose aesthetic he shared. He'd have been a Russell Winters sort of vampire, but instead of a real estate mogul, more of a "lost member of Spinal Tap"/Driveshaft I'm-a-bloody-rock-god Logan Echols sort of thing. Huh? Anyway, Spike couldn’t hurt humans, and so he wouldn’t want to advertise to the Scoobies that he’s wealthy. Giles turned out to be wealthy and he lived in a glorified studio apartment.


I have always had the notion that an unpublished benefit of Slayer-ness is natural weapon affinity, like an abstract, intuitive understanding. “As You Were” (6.15) makes this unlikely.


Buffy expertly and inattentively disassembles Jonathan's rifle in "Earshot", That wasn’t a complicated rifle.

________________________________________________


Dawn is biologically Buffy's daughter, not her sister or her clone. That makes zero sense.



vampmogs


The writing was pretty consistent in portraying [Spike] as someone in constant need of money. His suddenly having the wardrobe he has in “Crush” (5.14) doesn’t fit. Just what he wore in that episode would have cost thousands of dollars.


In the Buffyverse, vampires had very little need for money. They poke fun at Harmony for caring about bargains in Family; Harmony was still living in the cave that Spike and she had in “Harsh Light of Day” (4.03). I’ve actually assumed that Angel had rented the mansion given there’s little chance otherwise that he could have been in there as long as he was. And, of course, there would be electrically, gas, and water bills for that place.

For Spike, it’s unlikely he actually stole all the stuff he had in his crypt by BtVS S6 or that all that was in a junkyard or something.



BuffySpike


I wonder why [Spike] never went back to take all that treasure he and Harmony found in season 4. Giles could have taken all of it. Harmony was alone there and then left when Giles and Xander threatened her. It’s interesting if Giles’ estate in England was bought partly with that treasure. Or Spike could have taken it and put it somewhere or sold it and put the money somewhere.



Artea


If Spike had any working braincells, he wouldn't be hanging out with a group of vampire hunters who have spend years trying to kill him. In BtVS S4, they were protecting him from the Initiative and he hoped to somehow get his chip removed. In BtVS S5, Spike owns to being in love with Buffy. In BtVS S6, he’d stayed to protect Dawn, and then when Buffy was back, he was with her.


Pretty much nothing about Spike's post-S2 story makes any sort of logical sense. Spike sometime in BtVS S2 fell in love with Buffy.

________________________________________________


does anyone else think Buffy's dream in 'Surprise' is a prophetic one? Drusilla staking Angel could allude to her preventing the re-ensouling in 'Passion' and 'Becoming'. Or maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit... It was prophetic. First off, I lean toward those dreams being dreams that Drusilla gave Buffy, and not dreams that came from the Powers That Be. Anyway, Buffy came to Drusilla’s birthday party, which directly resulted in Angel reverting to Angelus, which directly resulted in Angel ‘dying’ in “Becoming Part II” (2.22). And it’s possible that sometime in the future that Drusilla will eventually dust Angel.

What happens? Buffy wanting to be with Angel resulted eventually in his death. Angel’s dusting would have been a gift to Buffy given what happens after Buffy’s ‘with’ Angel in “Surprise” (2.13).

Drusilla does threaten to kill Angel when Buffy comes to Dru’s birthday party, but Dru doesn’t actually succeed in killing Angel. And it is Buffy being in bed (Buffy in her dream is wearing her bedclothes) with Angel (noticeably, Angel in the dream is wearing a ‘red’ shirt) that eventually resulted in Angel dying.



kana

* Since being on Buffyverse Boards in 2005, I’ve said that the events that Buffy doesn’t remember from “I Will Remember You” (A 1.08) possibly didn’t actually happen and that it was simply a way to make Angel want to work for the PTB instead of be with Buffy. I even speculated the PTB sent the Mohra demon.


* With Sahjhan, I consider the point that a real prophecy can’t be broken in AtS. Connor does kill Sahjhan. Angel does kill Connor. Angel does become ‘human’ (which he did at least once).

* It’s obvious that Sahjhan had a limit to how far he could go back in time.


Ok so this sentence doesn't make much sense but it's referring to the vision she had in the episode 'Tomorrow'.

My issue is this: Cordelia only gets visions of people in danger. So my thought was that this vision is no different. It shows her accepting Skip's offer to become a higher being which lest we forget, led to her eventual death. It seems that the Powers were trying to warn her about Jasmine. So why so vague? Actually scratch that. Why so misleading? It's possible that the Powers were not able to be more specific in their visions. I mean the vision she had of Angel in danger didn't mention Connor and in the end was kind of useless. Alternatively maybe Jasmine 'edited' the message so her plan can go ahead. Huh? First off, what vision?


* With Jasmine, she simply could have chosen Angel when he left Buffy and went to Los Angeles. There’s no need for Buffy, Spike, Drusilla, or Faith to have been in any way manipulated by Jasmine. With Faith, in fact, she hurt Jasmine’s plans.



Vampire in Rug


I think that the novel "Go Ask Malice" and most of the IDW comics are good enough to be considered possible canon, and I accept them into my head-canon. Interestingly enough, the only Buffyverse novel to ever be talked about as possibly being canon is Spike and Dru: Pretty Maids All in a Row and that involved Spike killing a Slayer in order to get something that would allow a vampire to see in a mirror.

Given that they used to be considered canon, I like to think that Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” is canon as well as Ring Of Fire . And there’s nothing in Spike vs. Dracula that couldn’t be canon. I also like Spike and Dru : “Queen of Hearts” and, at the time, that was also marketed as being canon.

I also liked Juliet Landau’s two Drusilla Issues for IDW, but if that is canon, it’d have enormous implications.


So far with the IDW stuff, only Spike (including the stuff with Willow) and Illyria related stuff is possibly referred to in BtVS S8 and/or BtVS S9. But if all of the Spike miniseries is canon and all of Illyria: Haunted is canon, that’d have enormous implications.


I think Buffy never told Wood about Spike being alive again so that Wood could finally have closure about his mother's killer. Buffy didn’t seem that close to Wood after “First Date” (7.14). If anything, she probably didn’t want to bother with the situation.


I think one of Drusilla's aquantences at Mosaic pointed her towards the Lorophange demon. That’s interesting. :)

I find it silly when posters say that the Drusilla stuff in Spike didn’t happen because Drusilla wasn’t cured by Mosaic. Wolfram and Hart also wasn’t able to cure Drusilla (if that stuff is canon).


I always found it ridiculous in BtVS season 2 that Angelus never killed anyone important until Jenny was trying to restore his soul. Realistically, he should have killed Joyce or Xander or Willow or Willow's parents or anyone. Nah. Angel was able to do what he did to Drusilla because she was a mortal and so were her family and the nuns at the convent. As you say, with Buffy’s friends and family, he’d have to deal with Buffy.

_________________________________________________


I think that Buffy chose not to kill Spike in Halloween because children were near and she didn't want to put them in danger and she didn't want to traumatize them by killing Spike in front of them. Or the much more likely reason which is she simply didn’t want to dust him. You really think she’d prioritize not wanting them to see her killing a vampire over Spike living meaning that he’d get to kill more people?


I think that hypnotism is a rare genetic gift that very few vampires are just lucky enough to get. The Master had hypno-beams. Spike implies that Dracula’s “powers” are Gypsy magic. Drusilla was a seer.

* Twilight was another dimension. It wanted the Seed to have more power. SuperAngel and SuperBuffy went to someplace that existed already. And Twilight didn’t need the Seed to exist or survive.

________________________________________________

* Willow being able to turn AngelTwilight into a frog makes sense. If something doesn’t make sense, it’s why Willow didn’t keep Angel that way.

vampmogs
15-01-13, 09:52 AM
His suddenly having the wardrobe he has in “Crush” (5.14) doesn’t fit. Just what he wore in that episode would have cost thousands of dollars.

He would have stole them. How are you not getting that? We know he steals because he got caught stealing from the Magic Box in All the Way. And when he thought Harmony had paid for her clothes he acted as if she was a moron which makes it pretty obvious Spike doesn't see the point in paying for things.

And thousands of dollars for those clothes? Yikes. If that were true he should get his money back because he certainly didn't look anything special!

KingofCretins
15-01-13, 12:46 PM
Do you have any personal canon to share, Mike, or just going to hack away at the substance of everybody else's? Or would that involve acknowledging that something you think about the series isn't already canon?


KingofCretins “As You Were” (6.15) makes this unlikely.

Where as "Earshot" and pretty much every instance in which Buffy picks up a martial weapon we've never seen her use before off an enemy and use it expertly tends to favor it.


That wasn’t a complicated rifle.

What? What constitutes a "complicated" or an "uncomplicated" rifle in the hands of a person who we know has zero formal training with firearms of any kind? And for that matter, what is your personal qualification to judge the complexity of any firearm?

Buffy disassembles it in seconds as though she came forth into this world naked, screaming, and field-stripping rifles.


That makes zero sense.

There's only one meaningfully, hard canonical fact about Dawn that we really have in terms of the mechanics of her creation. "The monks made her out of me". And we know also that it was an intrinsic enough truth that it allowed Buffy to take Dawn's place.

When you accept that, then, there are really only two ways a person can be "made out of" another person.

First, cloning. We know this is manifestly not the case with Dawn and Buffy because we've seen them. Second, reproduction -- you are "made out" of the genetic material provided by your parents.


He would have stole them. How are you not getting that? We know he steals because he got caught stealing from the Magic Box in All the Way. And when he thought Harmony had paid for her clothes he acted as if she was a moron which makes it pretty obvious Spike doesn't see the point in paying for things.

And thousands of dollars for those clothes? Yikes. If that were true he should get his money back because he certainly didn't look anything special!

What's really awesome is that, in the same posts, he explains that he would be mugging people for pocket change because it's fun, but apparently it's completely implausible he'd steal clothing. wut?

PointMan
15-01-13, 11:41 PM
Ah, more personal canon. I have always had the notion that an unpublished benefit of Slayer-ness is natural weapon affinity, like an abstract, intuitive understanding. The thought comes from two places -- one, the way in which Buffy expertly and inattentively disassembles Jonathan's rifle in "Earshot", and the other from completely outside the Buffyverse, Stephen King's "Dark Tower", where the small cadre of gunslingers therein have a tendency when they have a new weapon on hand to just master it after a moment's close study and consideration. I always thought it would be cool if that were true of Buffy/Slayers, and since there's nothing that really makes it implausible, I adopted it.

I could see it with more archaic weaponry, but it doesn't make any sense to me that this would extend to firearms and other advanced weaponry. And Xander did have to show Buffy how to use the Bazooka in season 2 in the ep where she blew up the Judge.

I decided I was tired of doing the writers work for them because they were either too lazy or too stupid to do it themselves but, as a Xander fan you have to have lots of personal canon in order for the character to even have a continuous story. Actually I do remember something. I'm hardly the first person to state this but I believe there is more than enough evidence to suggest that Xander was physically abused by his parents. Also, something really cool and supernatural happened to Xander when he went to Oxnard, because it is just unbelievable lame and stupid if nothing did.

vampmogs
16-01-13, 06:18 AM
Also, something really cool and supernatural happened to Xander when he went to Oxnard, because it is just unbelievable lame and stupid if nothing did.

But isn't that the point? The story he tells Buffy in The Freshman sets the tone for his arc that year and it wouldn’t make sense if something really cool happened to him. He was meant to suffer humiliation and disappointment as his arc was about Xander feeling like he’s a “directionless loser with no plans for the future.” If he’d secretly had some really cool adventure it would go against his characterisation and the story they were trying to tell.

Also, personally I’m glad Xander encountered nothing supernatural as it’d be a little hard to believe that these characters constantly stumbled upon supernatural occurrences even when they’re not on a Hellmouth or seeking them out. Xander isn’t a Slayer, a vampire with a soul or even a witch so it’d be a little too coincidental if he couldn’t escape the supernatural for 3 months when pre-Buffy he lived 16 years on the Hellmouth and apparently lived a totally normal life. I liked that he had a relatively normal summer (stripping aside) and just went on your average road trip.

PointMan
16-01-13, 09:11 AM
I would argue that season 4 went against what had been set up for his character with season 3.

vampmogs
16-01-13, 09:36 AM
I don't think it "went against it" so much as progressed organically given the changes in the story. Xander was no longer in high school anymore and the group dynamics had changed. He still lived in his parent's home whilst Buffy and Willow had moved out, he drifted aimlessly from crappy job to crappy job whilst his friends went to college, he (like Giles) missed the Scooby meetings and the role he played in Buffy's slaying etc. Not to mention that a lot of S1-S3 had setup his S4 arc as something of an inevitably given the repeated references to how he wouldn't be attending college like his friends and Cordelia's persistent jabs that he'd never amount to anything great. Heck, even his friends gently poke fun at him in Choices for his road trip plans after high school. Xander's story that year was probably one of the most least surprising developments in the show, and I say that in a good way because I like how much they foreshadowed it.

Sosa lola
16-01-13, 10:03 AM
Personal Canon:

1) I was left with the impression that Jesse was Xander's friend and not Willow's. It also seems like when Xander met Jesse, he was happy to have a guy friend, he and Willow weren't as close - Willow's quote in The Pack, "I've known him my whole life, Buffy. Well, we haven't always been close,"

That explains why Xander took Jesse's death harder than Willow. Willow was probably a bit jealous of Xander's closeness with Jesse which explains her passive reaction.

On the other hand, Willow seems to be so happy to have a female friend in Buffy and was closer to her than Xander. I don't know if it's a subtle message about same sex friendships being stronger than opposite sex friendships, but it does seem like it with Xander and Willow preferring to open their hearts to someone of the same sex: Willow to Buffy, and Xander to Oz in S3.


2) I believe Xander was physically abused once or twice. The way he flinches sometimes in S1 when Giles stands behind him. Then there are quotes like "I'm surprised it wasn't one of the parents." and "My dad wanted to sell me... etc."

3) Seems in high school, Xander was looking for a father figure in Giles - the way he's usually in such a hurry to please him and how heartbroken he'd look when Giles snaps at him. But later realizes Giles won't be the father-figure he wants him to be and decides to move on and treat him more as a friend. Restless: "Spike is like a son to me." "I was into that for a while...."

That Xander/Giles relationship is one of the most wasted opportunities. I'd have loved to see the writers pay a closer attention to it.

4) Xander seems to have inherited Buffy's bad luck in boyfriends when it comes to his guy friends: Jesse dead, Oz gone and Riley gone.

Gosh, sorry about the Xander-centeric-ness. I have some Willow ones I'll mention later.

Artea
16-01-13, 12:38 PM
Not to mention that a lot of S1-S3 had setup his S4 arc as something of an inevitably given the repeated references to how he wouldn't be attending college like his friends and Cordelia's persistent jabs that he'd never amount to anything great.You really think the writers wanted the viewers to take early!Cordelia's side when she was insulting Xander's (or Buffy's or Willow's) self-worth? Talk about missing the point...
And I think you're strawmanning Pointman's argument. Nobody says that Xander should have gone to college. When people criticize Xander's S4 arc (it's not an arc, but just for argument's sake), they usually criticize the lousy execution, not the idea behind it.


That explains why Xander took Jesse's death harder than Willow.He did? Can't say I saw it. Neither one of them appears to miss their friend all that much - or at all. Apparently Whedon was more concerned about shocking the audience by killing off a presumed main character (he wanted to have Eric Balfour in the opening credits, but couldn't afford it or something) than about logical continuity. Wouldn't be the last time, either...

Sosa lola
16-01-13, 02:00 PM
He did? Can't say I saw it. Neither one of them appears to miss their friend all that much - or at all. Apparently Whedon was more concerned about shocking the audience by killing off a presumed main character (he wanted to have Eric Balfour in the opening credits, but couldn't afford it or something) than about logical continuity. Wouldn't be the last time, either...

I was talking about when Jesse was turned - dead. Xander was obviously crushed by it. Now after Jesse was dusted, Xander probably took the easy way out and believed Giles when he said that Vampire Jesse was not Jesse, which helped him move on. This is my personal canon, even though the real reason behind it is Joss simply doing for shock value as you said.

Dipstick
16-01-13, 03:26 PM
Wishverse Canon

Buffy never went to Sunnydale because she ran away from her parents. That explains the lack of Joyce and why Buffy is such a hardened, free agent and it alone determines why Buffy never went to Sunnydale- she wasn't traveling with her mom who was trying to get her into school.

As a matter of a fact, Buffy ran away from Joyce after Joyce started seriously considering moving her to Sunnydale. The paper trail that Joyce made indicating that she was going to move to Sunnydale (writing to SHS to get a place for Buffy, job applications to galleries) is how the Council of Watchers knew to stick a Watcher in SHS to wait for Buffy to arrive. However, ultimately, Buffy didn't run away because she ran away. So the Council of Watchers sent another Watcher to stalk Buffy and bring her under his wing. That's who Giles was talking to when he wanted the other Watcher to send Buffy from Cleavland to Sunnydale.

Jesse and Willow were captured in the same manner as occurred in Welcome to the Hellmouth. Thomas had to work harder at flirting with and coaxing Willow out the Bronze without Buffy's "Carpe diem" message but Willow was desperate enough for romantic attention that she could be persuaded to leave with Thomas.

The Master ate Jesse- he was originally intended to be food and there was no reason to sire him to be bait for Buffy. End of Jesse. However, the Master immediately took a liking to Willow- sensing intelligence and latent powers of witchcraft- and sired her.

The Master made it to the surface to rain down terror in The Harvest as he intended- and emerged with Darla, Luke and Willow at his side. Willow was a bad-ass vamp from the word, "Go".

Before she was vamped, Willow (in the Wishverse and in our verse) struck up a friendship with Giles because she was always in the library and eager to help him sort books and stuff. Xander commiserated with Giles about the tragedy of losing Willow and the horrors in the town and thus, the original White Hats were formed- a union between Xander and Giles.

For several weeks, Xander and Giles fought evil alone together. It was a living hell, especially for Xander. Xander had to learn how to fight monsters for the first time in an apocalyptic town. Giles was brave but frequently dismissive of Xander and constantly under-valuing Xander's contributions and couldn't stop talking about the Slayer was supposed to be there. And most horribly, Vamp Willow's crush on Xander metastisized from her vampy evil to an Angelus-like campaign to destroy Xander until he surrendered to live an eternal unlife with her as a couple. She would frequently show up to by turns seduce him and hand over dead bodies of his friends and parents.

Even though the horrors in the town were becoming unbearable, the Sunnydale citizens were definitely themselves and denied anything serious was happening for a long time. Oz was one of the first to acknowledge the trouble in the town and one of the first to figure out that Xander and Giles were fighting evil. Then, Devon was out partying in the middle of the night in flashy rocker gear and Vamp Willow killed him. Oz joined with Xander and Giles and fought alone with just the two of them for several months.

Oz and Xander became fast friends while fighting together. Their camaraderie in the Regularverse was just emphasized when they only socialized with each other without Willow-issues between them. However, Vamp Willow finally sired Xander after her steady torture of him for several months. Oz, never a hateful guy, usually killed vampires with an even-tempered focus on safety. However, Oz really grew to hate Willow as he never hated anyone before for killing his first best friend, Devon, terrorizing his new best friend, Xander which included Vamp Willow trying to kill Oz a bunch of times, and finally for killing Xander.

In the Wishverse "Mass production!"/"Golden age" scene, Oz hated Willow so much that he put away being a White Hat. In the middle of all of that chaos with most every other human running for their lives out of the Bronze, Oz zeroed in on Vamp Willow and hoisted her up to the wood motivated by pure, raw passionate hate that was so powerful in its furious loathing that it allowed Oz to hoist up a precociously powerful Vamp Willlow up to a plank of wood to stake her.

Vampire in Rug
21-01-13, 06:45 PM
All caught up

TimeTravellingBunny

* When talking about the Crimean War, Halfrek could have simply been referring to something that Anyanka did.

For what it's worth, there is an IDW Spike comic that depicts Halfrek as being a Vengance demon "on the job" during the party.

Here's the line from Lessons: "Listen, Anya. I know I've always been a little competitive with you. I mean, there was that thing in the Crimean War. We laugh about it now."

They are talking about Halfrek being competitive with Anyanka. Why would Halfrek be competitive over something that happened years before Cecily was born? The dialogue suggests that Halfrek was indeed around for the Crimean War. The line "we laugh about it now" suggests that whatever happened during the Crimean War may have been a point of contention for Halfrek and Anyanka *at the time*, but it was something that they are able to laugh about *now* due to how much time has passed.

When I first watched the epiosode "Selfless", I assumed that the war where Halfrek and Anyanka were having their dinner party was the Crimean War, but it seems that the dates would suggest that it was a different war. Any history buffs know what this war in the flashback might have been? Or is the date given possibly wrong?


According to what? We never hear of a death certificate being made for him. And we see that vampires can have lawyers. And if Spike was a member of the peerage, the estate would always remain in the family anyway and so it seems it’d be relatively easy for him to have owned the Pratt estate this entire time. And even if descendants legally own the estate, Spike could still easily have access to the estate.

I think it would be normal to assume that a death certificate would be made up for William if he was declared "missing" for a significant time. KingofCretins would know better than me, but I'm pretty sure that if someone goes missing for over a hundred years, they must be legally declared to be dead at *some point.* I'm not sure when, but I doubt somebody can stay legally alive indefinably just because there is no body to be buried.

I don't see why Spike should have access to the estate at all if his descendants own it. If my great-great-great-grand-uncle who I've never met just shows up one day apparently still alive after all these years, I doubt I'm under any legal obligation to let him into my house after he's been gone for that long, I've never met him and he's got no paperwork entitling him to come inside.

In the A&F comic, Drusilla considers buying the home that she lived in as a human. She clearly does not own it already.



KingofCretins

He wanted to be scary to humans and so scaring people for money had twin benefits of scaring people and robbing them.

Spike was willing to steal money, but you doubt that he'd be willing to steal clothes and jewellery?



Huh? Anyway, Spike couldn’t hurt humans, and so he wouldn't want to advertise to the Scoobies that he’s wealthy.

Or you could go with the much more likely explanation: Spike appeared to be poor, so he was poor. I don't understand your explanation of "Spike appeared to be poor, but he was secretly rich. We never see any indication of his wealth because he didn't want the scoobies to know how loaded he was. He was rich, but it was all offscreen."

Why would Spike need to hide that information from the scoobies anyway? They were letting him live even after he'd tried to kill them or betray them multiple times. Why would he be worried about them knowing he had money?



That makes zero sense.


If you're going to pick apart people's personal canon in the *Personal Canon* thread, it might be nice if you explained why it makes zero sense.



vampmogs

His suddenly having the wardrobe he has in “Crush” (5.14) doesn’t fit. Just what he wore in that episode would have cost thousands of dollars.

Yeah, I'll second vampmogs. I don't think what he wore in that episode justifies thousands of dollars. Those clothes don't look anything special to me.

How do you know how much those clothes would have cost anyway? Are you an expert on fashions and clothes and such? I don't know how you can tell the price of that outfit just by looking at it. I picked up an ordinary white T-shirt from a market recently for $5. I saw a similar looking white a T-shirt in a trendy, fashionable shop for $30. Unless you looked at the label or closely inspected the fabric, I don't know how someone could tell the difference. How do you know Spike's outfit cost thousands of dollars? That seems pretty excessive to me. I own nice suits that didn't cost me nearly that much.



For Spike, it’s unlikely he actually stole all the stuff he had in his crypt by BtVS S6 or that all that was in a junkyard or something.

I can think of one scene where Spike was looking through a junkyard to furnish his crypt. I can think of zero scenes where Spike was shopping to furnish his crypt. Why is it "unlikely" that Spike stole or scavenged most of his crypt furnishings? What better stuff does Spike have to do with his time, really?

The show suggested that Spike didn't have a lot of money. He turned to the scoobies for help when he was going hungry, he was shown to steal and scavenge. His back-story has him travelling the world without a need for material items. The simplest explanation is that Spike does not care about money beyond what he needs immediately. I don't know why you would *want* to assume that Spike is secretly rich and all his money is kept offscreen. Does it make him a better, more interesting character if he's rich? I don't see how Spike's material wealth should be any concern to anyone. How does that make him a better character whether he's rich or poor?



It was prophetic. First off, I lean toward those dreams being dreams that Drusilla gave Buffy, and not dreams that came from the Powers That Be.

Since when could Drusilla send dreams to people? Why wouldn't she send Buffy nightmares every single night?


And it’s possible that sometime in the future that Drusilla will eventually dust Angel.

It's also possible that Angel might eventually dust Drusilla someday in the future eventually. It's also possible that Xander might dust both Angel and Drusilla simultaneously in the future. It's also possible that Clem might dust Angel while losing control of his bladder in the future and we are treated to five issue arc of Harmony and Clem shopping for new underpants.

Anything is possible in the future. I think it's pretty laughable to suggest that maybe Joss will have Drusilla dust Angel, purely for the sake of a callback all the way back to season 2.



* With Jasmine, she simply could have chosen Angel when he left Buffy and went to Los Angeles. There’s no need for Buffy, Spike, Drusilla, or Faith to have been in any way manipulated by Jasmine. With Faith, in fact, she hurt Jasmine’s plans.

The Jasmine stuff was such piss-poor writing. It's impossible to know which events Jasmine influenced, and which events she didn't. I know that you like to dismiss entire seasons of character development and relationships by pinning them on Jasmine such as Angel/Darla or Angel/Cordelia. But the truth of the matter is we don't get any specifics and Jasmine apparently existed at the dawn of time. So if you want to arbitrarily chalk stuff up to Jasmine's influence, really anything could have been because of Jasmine. Angel being born, Angel being sired, Buffy being chosen as Slayer, Buffy and Angel falling in love, Spike killing a Slayer, Giles needing glasses, Angelus killing Willow's fish... really, anything can be attributed to Jasmine if you want to dismiss stuff from the show because Jasmine has been around forever. I do take issue with you hand-picking which events were influenced by Jasmine and which events were not when the show never spelled it out for us.




Vampire in Rug

Interestingly enough, the only Buffyverse novel to ever be talked about as possibly being canon is Spike and Dru: Pretty Maids All in a Row and that involved Spike killing a Slayer in order to get something that would allow a vampire to see in a mirror.

I've read that book. It's quite good. But ultimately, it's a licensed tie-in novel and was never supposed to be canon. If I recall corectly, Christopher Golden was a little annoyed that the episode "Fool For Love" came out shortly after the book and totally contradicted it. The book was never considered by Joss or any of the TV writers to be canon. I don't know where you are getting this idea from that the Spike and Dru novel was canon when none of the other novels ever were. I do know that you won't have any sources backing up this claim.


Given that they used to be considered canon, I like to think that Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” is canon as well as Ring Of Fire . And there’s nothing in Spike vs. Dracula that couldn’t be canon. I also like Spike and Dru : “Queen of Hearts” and, at the time, that was also marketed as being canon.

Again, you are wrong. Amongst all the old, non-canon novels and all the old, non-canon Dark Horse Buffyverse comics, it doesn't surprise me in the least that you think that the Spike and Drusilla stories are the only ones that get to be canon. "Paint the Town Red", "Ring of Fire", "Queen of Hearts" and "Pretty Maids all in a Row" were never marketed as being canon. Even "Spike vs Dracula" is questionable. None of that old stuff was considered by the TV writers or Joss to be canon. If you think these stories were canon when they were published, you are wrong. Again, you will not be able to find a source to prove me wrong here.

If you want to accept these stories into your personal canon, that's great, that's what this thread is for. But let's not get facts wrong. They weren't definitive canon at any point. Not any more than all the other novels and older comics were.


I also liked Juliet Landau’s two Drusilla Issues for IDW, but if that is canon, it’d have enormous implications.

I thought that it was okay, not great. I've got no trouble accepting the IDW ongoing into the canon. What enormous implications do you think the Drusilla comic would have?



So far with the IDW stuff, only Spike (including the stuff with Willow) and Illyria related stuff is possibly referred to in BtVS S8 and/or BtVS S9. But if all of the Spike miniseries is canon and all of Illyria: Haunted is canon, that’d have enormous implications.

"Angel: After the Fall" has Joss Whedon's name on the front of the book. It follows his outline for the characters and has also been referenced in BtVS seasons 8 and 9. You're mistaken if you believe that A:ATF doesn't carry just as much weight -probably more, with Dark Horse than the various miniseries about Spike and Illyria.


Buffy didn’t seem that close to Wood after “First Date” (7.14). If anything, she probably didn’t want to bother with the situation.

She was close enough to still consider him a valuable member of the team. And put him in charge of the important Cleveland location in season 8. And trusted him enough to ask his advice on her pregnacy in season 9. And was friendly enough to link arms with him as they walk down the street if I recall correctly. Wood is not the pariah amongst the scoobies you would like him to be.



Nah. Angel was able to do what he did to Drusilla because she was a mortal and so were her family and the nuns at the convent. As you say, with Buffy’s friends and family, he’d have to deal with Buffy.

That's... pretty much what I was saying. If Angel had gone out of his way to kill Xander or Willow or somebody else important, he would be forcing Buffy's hand. After Angel kills one of her close friends, Buffy wouldn't be able to live with herself until she goes out and kills Angel. It would mean the end of Angel being able to toy with Buffy and torture her emotionally. So he sticks with more subtle stuff like drawing creepy pictures and killing goldfish. This stuff creeps Buffy out, but it's not so drastic that she's pushed into killing him. That's what Angel was going for, he wanted to punish her slowly and emotionally. He didn't want a big confrontation right away. That said, he'd kill one of the scoobies if the opportunity presented itself such as Xander on the roof of BB&B. This is my personal canon of why Angel never really killed anyone important while he was evil.



Or the much more likely reason which is she simply didn’t want to dust him. You really think she’d prioritize not wanting them to see her killing a vampire over Spike living meaning that he’d get to kill more people?

Why wouldn't Buffy want to kill Spike at this point? I admit, my fanwank/personal-canon of Buffy choosing to not kill Spike because she doesn't want to traumatize the kids is not an airtight one. Because as you say, Spike would go on to kill more people. But I think the idea of letting Spike go in order to spare some kids more trauma is more noble and less idiotic than the idea of letting Spike go because he's just too damn hot to kill which is what I assume you mean when you say "she simply didn't want to dust him." I prefer to think up a non-selfish reason for why Buffy might let Spike go.


The Master had hypno-beams. Spike implies that Dracula’s “powers” are Gypsy magic. Drusilla was a seer.

The "thrall" ability of the Master, Drusilla and Dracula appears to be pretty much the same. It seems to be a rare trait among vampires and it doesn't seem to be linked to their other special abilities. In the case of Dracula: In season 8 a bunch of Japanese vampires won Dracula's powers. None of them displayed his thrall ability. As far as I can see, the thrall was one of Dracula's natural vampire abilities, whereas the animal transformations was gypsy magic, hence why the other vampires could do it after they won the bet with him.


* Twilight was another dimension. It wanted the Seed to have more power. SuperAngel and SuperBuffy went to someplace that existed already. And Twilight didn’t need the Seed to exist or survive.

You missed my point here. My point was that I see Twilight as more of a Galactus villian than a Red Skull or Loki villian. I don't see Twilight as a moustache-twirler, I see it as a creature that wants what's best for it's own survival -which is incidentally the death of Earth and everyone on it.

More personal canon about Twilight: I like to think that without the Seed, some areas of Twilight are like a half-formed hell dimension. Buffy and Angel never finished shaping that world, and I imagine the whole Twilight dimension is suffering for it. Maybe the cat is in perpetual pain.


* Willow being able to turn AngelTwilight into a frog makes sense. If something doesn’t make sense, it’s why Willow didn’t keep Angel that way.

So you think that the Ultimate Big Bad, the guy who has been a threat for the entire season and is now a threat on a Universal Scale, should be able to be defeated by a human witch? I disagree. Narratively, that makes no sense. It means that Willow could have turned Angel/Twilight into a frog right from the start, and immediately ended this Universal Threat. That's silly. Angel's Twilight powers gave him invulnerability from physical harm and also apparently the protection extended right down to his soul -he could not lose it through sex with Buffy. I see no reason why the invulnerability shouldn't also protect him against magic. Narratively, that would be a good idea because it means that Willow can't just OHKO him with a spell the moment she sees him. The Big Bad should not be able to be defeated so easily by a scoobie. And yes, you are right that it makes little sense for Willow not to keep Angel in frog-form. So I prefer my personal canon where Angel turning back from frog to vampire was simply part of the protection that Twilight offered.

TimeTravellingBunny
21-01-13, 10:53 PM
For what it's worth, there is an IDW Spike comic that depicts Halfrek as being a Vengance demon "on the job" during the party.

Here's the line from Lessons: "Listen, Anya. I know I've always been a little competitive with you. I mean, there was that thing in the Crimean War. We laugh about it now."

They are talking about Halfrek being competitive with Anyanka. Why would Halfrek be competitive over something that happened years before Cecily was born? The dialogue suggests that Halfrek was indeed around for the Crimean War. The line "we laugh about it now" suggests that whatever happened during the Crimean War may have been a point of contention for Halfrek and Anyanka *at the time*, but it was something that they are able to laugh about *now* due to how much time has passed.

When I first watched the epiosode "Selfless", I assumed that the war where Halfrek and Anyanka were having their dinner party was the Crimean War, but it seems that the dates would suggest that it was a different war. Any history buffs know what this war in the flashback might have been? Or is the date given possibly wrong?

According to the script (http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/127_scri.html), it happened in St. Petersburg in 1905. So that would be the Russian Revolution of 1905 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1905).


INT. IMPERIAL BANQUET HALL - NIGHT

CLOSE ON A DEAD BODY. Surrounded by food. We're looking down on an elaborate banquet table, covered with all the fixings of an elaborate feast. And a dead, bloody body.

Tilt up and find Anya and Hallie sitting at the end of the table. Both are wearing period-dress befitting Russian princesses. We're in an Imperial Banquet hall. Littered throughout the rooms (and across the table) are bodies.

SUBTITLE: St. Petersburg, 1905

A large window behind Anya and Hallie gives us a sense of the chaos unfolding outside as workers battle Cossacks and Russia burns. Screams. Fire. Gunshots. Chaos.

Anya and Hallie laugh casually.

MikeB
12-02-13, 11:50 AM
All caught up


* Buffy was the Slayer for around a year before “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01). Us not having seen Buffy train with swords or other such weapons doesn’t mean she hadn’t trained with them before. And the same with guns: Merrick or whoever could have showed Buffy how to use a rifle but Buffy was simply never comfortable with using guns as weapons in her slaying.


* Dawn being made out of Buffy’s genetic material: I don’t know if that’s fact. All we know is that Buffy was somehow able to close the portal. Even if Dawn’s DNA is genetically similar enough to Buffy’s and Joyce’s that Dawn in a DNA test would be labeled as family, that could simply mean that the monks were magically able to make Dawn’s genetically that similar to Buffy and Joyce.


* Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” was canon. Joss Whedon after he read it gave canon approval for Ring of Fire . Also, Long Night’s Journey used to be canon. None of these to my knowledge was ever stated as now not being canon, it’s simply that Scott Allie doesn’t list them as being canon.


* BtVS S5 Willow was able to teleport Glorificus. AngelTwlight powers included being able to fly, being very durable, and being super strong. Nothing in there about being invulnerable to magic. Using comic books, apparently even Thor can be affected by magic. It makes perfect sense that BtVS S8 Willow could have turned Angel into a frog.




KingofCretins


Do you have any personal canon to share, Mike, or just going to hack away at the substance of everybody else's? Or would that involve acknowledging that something you think about the series isn't already canon? Do you not know how to use the Search function? http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?p=641435#post641435



Sosa lola


Gosh, sorry about the Xander-centeric-ness. I have some Willow ones I'll mention later. You don’t need to apologize for that. :)

It could be true that Jesse was more Xander’s friend than Willow’s friend. Willow perhaps was more overwhelmed by the existence of vampires and that Buffy’s the Slayer than she was about Jesse’s death.



Artea


You really think the writers wanted the viewers to take early!Cordelia's side when she was insulting Xander's (or Buffy's or Willow's) self-worth? Talk about missing the point... With Buffy, Cordelia mentioned things like Buffy being friends with losers and then later on about her being the Slayer means that she won’t give to ‘live a life’. With Xander, it was about his being poor and his not being “smart”. With Willow, it was about her lack of “cool”. I don’t remember Cordelia making fun of Willow after Willow started dating Oz.

Cordelia’s portrayed as rich, entitled, class conscious, and ‘secretly’ smart and caring about academics. And she picked on ‘losers’.



Dipstick


Wishverse Canon Sorry, but the Wishverse simply makes no sense.

* Rich families would not have stayed in Sunnydale. The Chase family, the Kendall family, etc. would have left. Anyone with money to get an apartment would have left. FEMA would have probably paid for relocating expenses so probably no one would have stayed.


* The Master ONLY ruled over Sunnydale. The US Government would have nuked Sunnydale if it were necessary to destroy the ‘vampire threat’. Certainly, there would be a ton of Initiative soldiers taking care of the problem. If anything, the humans would have banded together and governments would have formed military operations to wipe out the vampire threat.


* Why wouldn’t Buffy be in the town that’s ruled by vampires?


* It simply makes around zero sense that Willow and Xander are the Master’s lieutenants instead of Luke and Darla unless both Luke and Darla were dusted.


* Angel himself was only in Sunnydale to meet Buffy. Why wouldn’t he have been in Cleveland?

Vampire in Rug
12-02-13, 04:03 PM
* Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” was canon. Joss Whedon after he read it gave canon approval for Ring of Fire . Also, Long Night’s Journey used to be canon. None of these to my knowledge was ever stated as now not being canon, it’s simply that Scott Allie doesn’t list them as being canon.

Mike, you are wrong. "Paint the Town Red", "Ring of Fire" and "Pretty Maids All in a Row" were, to my knowledge, never marketed as canon or considered to be canon. If you're right about this and I'm wrong, then it should be quite easy for you to pull up a quote by Joss where he talks about them as canon. Google is right there, really it should take you all of three seconds. You will NOT find a quote or an interview with Joss declaring these stories to be canon because such a quote does not exist. You are either misremembering events, or imagining them. Otherwise you'd be able to prove me wrong by pointing to a citation that I'm saying doesn't exist.



* BtVS S5 Willow was able to teleport Glorificus. AngelTwlight powers included being able to fly, being very durable, and being super strong. Nothing in there about being invulnerable to magic. Using comic books, apparently even Thor can be affected by magic. It makes perfect sense that BtVS S8 Willow could have turned Angel into a frog.

Can't you see why, narratively, it's a stupid idea to make Willow overpowered to the point where she can beat Twilight-Angel so easily? Basically if Willow had run into Twilight-Angel at the start of the season, she could have beaten him with her frog spell. That completely destroys the idea of Twilight as a credible threat and it kills all the tension of the season. Twilight didn't cause an apocalypse through careful planning and manipulation, Twilight caused the apocalypse because he was lucky enough not to run into Willow. That completely takes the wind out of his sails as a villain. Can you imagine how lame it would be if Willow was able to turn Glory into a frog in season 5? Or if she could turn Caleb into a frog? It was a stupid idea to introduce into the story full stop. Which is why I prefer my own fanon (and yes, I'll admit that it's fanon) that Angel turning back from a frog was an extension of his invulnerability powers. Scott Allie has mentioned that Angel's invulnerability protected his soul when he had sex with Buffy, so I think it's not unreasonable that the invulnerability could protect him from other magical attacks. I think that it's a bad idea to give Willow a spell that can instantly incapacitate any opponent. It then becomes a plot hole why she's wouldn't use the same spell on every dangerous opponent they face.



Sorry, but the Wishverse simply makes no sense.

* Rich families would not have stayed in Sunnydale. The Chase family, the Kendall family, etc. would have left. Anyone with money to get an apartment would have left. FEMA would have probably paid for relocating expenses so probably no one would have stayed.

It's a stretch that anyone would live in regular Sunnydale to begin with, let alone the Wishverse. We have to suspend our disbelief anyway to watch the show. The Wishverse doesn't really make it that much more unbelievable to what it is already. Your reasons for why the rich people wouldn't just move out of Wishverse Sunnydale applies to regular Sunnydale too, although to a lesser extent. It's already a huge stretch to believe that citizens don't discover vampires until season 8.



* The Master ONLY ruled over Sunnydale. The US Government would have nuked Sunnydale if it were necessary to destroy the ‘vampire threat’. Certainly, there would be a ton of Initiative soldiers taking care of the problem. If anything, the humans would have banded together and governments would have formed military operations to wipe out the vampire threat.

Again, it's a stretch that the government isn't doing much to combat the vampires in regular Sunnydale. Who knows why the government didn't nuke Wishverse Sunnydale. Maybe someone evil like Senator Helen Brucker had a high up position in politics and didn't want to nuke the Hellmouth.



* Why wouldn’t Buffy be in the town that’s ruled by vampires?

Because that was the entire point of the wish: that Buffy wouldn't be there.



* It simply makes around zero sense that Willow and Xander are the Master’s lieutenants instead of Luke and Darla unless both Luke and Darla were dusted.

It's entirely possible that Luke and Darla were dusted. Or they could have been elsewhere. We don't know where Luke and Darla were during The Wish , but there's plenty of room for explanation.


* Angel himself was only in Sunnydale to meet Buffy. Why wouldn’t he have been in Cleveland?

Angel mentions that Buffy was supposed to show up in Sunnydale and that he waited for her. Obviously she didn't show up because she was in Cleveland. Angel got captured at some point when he was trying to save some people from the Master.

Dipstick, several of your personal canon points about the Wishverse are shared by me. I even started writing a fic several years ago that had many of the elements that you mention. Maybe I'll get back to that someday....

Another piece of personal canon: In the Chaos Bleeds game, one of the boss fights is Anyanka. You beat her by placing a rabbit underneath her which temporarily causes her to lose her powers. I think its an awesome idea that Vengance Demons would be weak against rabbits and it could explain Anya's fear of them.

KingofCretins
12-02-13, 05:12 PM
Season 8 -- I interpret the frog spell as being something knowingly temporary and futile. I don't think Willow "let" him out, I think she just threw it at him knowing there was no way it could stick for longer than a few seconds precisely because he was so powerful. Hadn't they established at some point previously that he was eluding attempts at magical detection? It was just to insult/harass him.

As for the Wishverse, obviously nobody was going to nuke Sunnydale. I mean, granted it was a TV show, since a TV show is the only place anything like that would ever even remotely be contemplated, I suppose you could try to believe it, but it wouldn't have any real credibility. From the outside, it probably just looked like a town that had undergone a sort of social decay into crime and depravity where decent law-abiding folk didn't go out at night.

I have no trouble reconciling Luke or Darla's absence, either. As Rug said, they aren't dustproof, and if a vampire can have "one good day", so can an ordinary whitehat. But, I could also see them both being out setting up franchises for the Master, realizing he had two very eager and able new Dragons (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon)* in Xander and Willow. The real/Doylist reason is that, whether Benz and Thompson were available or not, the point of the Wishverse was to be "Buffy"'s version of "Mirror, Mirror" and show us a dark lens into each of our favorite characters, a story to which those two had absolutely no relevance.

*I think Xander and Willow both could replace the functions served by Luke and Darla, but with the genders reversed. Luke and Willow being the more actual Dragon, the brutal and sadistic enforcer, while Xander and Darla were more like vampire consigliere, more reserved and calculating lieutenants.

Local Maximum
12-02-13, 05:20 PM
Agreed with King about the season 8 thing.

I have seen someone argue that the Wishverse must have only, like, existed in Cordelia's and/or Anya's head because that is the only way to resolve the plot hole of Darla and Luke and Jesse not being there. That is really, really weird to me. I haven't come up with my own personal canon of how it all happened, but I don't think it's hard to imagine how it could have happened that the people were distributed as they were in the ep proper.

Here's a q: had the Wishverse continued past the amulet-smashing, would Kendra or Faith get called upon Buffy's death, or would it go onto another slightly younger potential? It's only a few months after Faith's actual calling in Becoming, Part 1, so it's possible she'd be called, but, well, we don't really know how these things work exactly except that girls are only called within a certain age window.

KingofCretins
12-02-13, 05:29 PM
Agreed with King about the season 8 thing.

I have seen someone argue that the Wishverse must have only, like, existed in Cordelia's and/or Anya's head because that is the only way to resolve the plot hole of Darla and Luke and Jesse not being there. That is really, really weird to me. I haven't come up with my own personal canon of how it all happened, but I don't think it's hard to imagine how it could have happened that the people were distributed as they were in the ep proper.

It's far too easy to explain any particular absence to need so involved an explanation is what I'd say. Jesse, dead or fled; Luke and Darla, dead or reassigned or on vamp-cation.


Here's a q: had the Wishverse continued past the amulet-smashing, would Kendra or Faith get called upon Buffy's death, or would it go onto another slightly younger potential? It's only a few months after Faith's actual calling in Becoming, Part 1, so it's possible she'd be called, but, well, we don't really know how these things work exactly except that girls are only called within a certain age window.

RNG is RNG, would be my guess. Sorta like the button on "Press Your Luck" (no whammies no whammies), the button though being "death of preceding Slayer". I'd bet on it being someone else altogether. Most of our Season 7 and 8 potentials would probably have been too young, so someone we never met.

I do wonder, though... what do you think is the "downtime" between Slayers in ordinary Slayer lineage? I mean, the change clearly "vests" almost instantaneously, by which I mean becomes irreversible -- Buffy was only down for a couple minutes, but Kendra was called. But what do you think is the boot cycle on Slayer powers? Contemporaneous to the prior Slayer's death? An hour, a day?

Local Maximum
12-02-13, 05:44 PM
RNG is RNG, would be my guess. Sorta like the button on "Press Your Luck" (no whammies no whammies), the button though being "death of preceding Slayer". I'd bet on it being someone else altogether. Most of our Season 7 and 8 potentials would probably have been too young, so someone we never met.

I think so too.


I do wonder, though... what do you think is the "downtime" between Slayers in ordinary Slayer lineage? I mean, the change clearly "vests" almost instantaneously, by which I mean becomes irreversible -- Buffy was only down for a couple minutes, but Kendra was called. But what do you think is the boot cycle on Slayer powers? Contemporaneous to the prior Slayer's death? An hour, a day?

I think the closest thing we have to an answer on this is how quickly slayers developed their powers when the Chosen spell happened -- which is to say, right away. It's not the same thing as being called because of death, but the fact that there wasn't any particular delay in Chosen means that maybe there isn't a big delay generally.

However, the difference I guess is that the slayer spell sent an immediate signal out at the time Willow did the spell. Where does the signal that a new slayer needs to be called come from? Is there a mystical counter attached to the active slayer which sends out a beacon when that slayer dies? Or is there some delocalized field which tracks whether or not the currently-active slayer is alive and then shifts it. If there is a signal sent out upon the slayer's death, then I would assume that it would work pretty similarly to the slayer spell, i.e. fairly instantaneously; but if it's a delocalized system there might be some time required for it to, um, "notice" the slayer's death.

Even if it's "instantaneous" though, it's possible the signal is slow -- it might travel at relatively low speeds, and the only reason the slayer activation in Chosen happened as fast as it did is because they were really close to the empowerment signal.

Vampire in Rug
12-02-13, 06:08 PM
Wow, it's like everyone's personal canon for the Wishverse matches my own. I feel less original now.

I had Jesse get killed outright by the Master and not sired because he didn't need bait for Buffy.

Thomas brought Willow to the Master who was impressed with her natural intelligence and magical affinity (Willow doesn't know about magic at this stage, but I depict her as being able to withstand the Master's hypnosis). She gets sired.

Xander is a Whitehat for a year or so, bonds with Larry in a frenemies kind of way. When Xander is sired, he's got a real hatred for Larry.

Mayor Wilkins and the Master come to a sort of understanding that benefits them both, Mayor rules the town by day, Master rules the town by night. They both recognize that by working together they can be more effective than fighting each other. Mayor plans to backstab the Master soon as he ascends.

Xander is heartbroken about Willow being sired and spends a year naively trying to reason with her and he's reluctant to kill her. Willow is dating Thomas who keeps disappointing her, leaving her for dead in dangerous situations etc. Xander gets brutally beaten by Thomas in a fight, Willow stakes Thomas from behind and sires Xander.

The Trio get up to all sorts of shenanigans. Warren eventually becomes a vampire.

Luke gets sent to LA to set up another "franchise". Gives Gunn and his crew a hard time, takes over the vampire underworld there.

Devon was a mysterious serial killer type vampire who gives Oz a hard time.

Spike and Dru come to town, Spike spends the a lot of time butting heads with Xander, the two dislike each other a LOT.

At one point Xander, Spike and a whole bunch of lackeys go out on Halloween on some mission and happen to run into the Whitehats. The vamps get them all cornered and outnumbered and are ready to kill them, then Spike blatantly decides to let the Whitehats escape just to piss off Xander and rob Xander of his chance to kill the Whitehats. It's Halloween so Spike knows that he's got vampire tradition on his side and that if Xander whines to the Master, Spike will simply say that vampires don't hunt on Halloween and that Xander was violating a sacred tradition. This infuriates Xander further and fuels his hatred of Spike.

Spike gets pissed that the Master won't help heal Drusilla and the Master keeps Dru basically prisoner so that he can use her for her visions. Darla wants Spike to behave himself and respect the Master's authority but the Master's indifference to Drusilla's health causes Spike to act out more and more to the point where he wants to betray the Master.

The Master discovers Acathla and Spike decides to team up with Angel to wreak the apocalypse since the Master is being a jerk about Dru's health.

The apocalypse is stopped, but the Master is enraged when Angel kills Darla. Angel gets captured in put in a cage, Spike possibly gets killed or escapes or something. Haven't decided.

I think I had like, seven seasons all planned out in my head. This thread is making me want to write that story again...

I agree with King that the Slayer that gets called is probably like a RNG type deal. But, since it's supposed to be a "mirror, mirror" type deal to see alternate versions of the characters we know, I had Kendra get called after Buffy, and Faith eventually after Kendra.

Dipstick
12-02-13, 07:44 PM
I have no trouble reconciling Luke or Darla's absence, either. As Rug said, they aren't dustproof, and if a vampire can have "one good day", so can an ordinary whitehat. But, I could also see them both being out setting up franchises for the Master, realizing he had two very eager and able new Dragons (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon)* in Xander and Willow. The real/Doylist reason is that, whether Benz and Thompson were available or not, the point of the Wishverse was to be "Buffy"'s version of "Mirror, Mirror" and show us a dark lens into each of our favorite characters, a story to which those two had absolutely no relevance.

*I think Xander and Willow both could replace the functions served by Luke and Darla, but with the genders reversed. Luke and Willow being the more actual Dragon, the brutal and sadistic enforcer, while Xander and Darla were more like vampire consigliere, more reserved and calculating lieutenants.

I wouldn't really put the division of labor that way. However, the difference in Vamp Xander's and Vamp Willow's attitudes, partly, led me to make my canon.

Vamp Willow appears to be everything and everything. She's brutal, sadistic AND calculating and clever. (Also: My personal canon is that Vamp Willow invented the Mass Production Juicer.) She's got big appetites for blood and sex with everyone. She's a perfect dark reflection of who Willow was in life- big appetites and passions, big playfulness, and a clever calculation that is easily distracted through curiousness.

Meanwhile, Vamp Xander is like....muted and joyless. It's odd since human Xander also has big appetites for food and sex and takes pleasure out of (righteous) violence. NB does a great job. Vamp Xander does feel like a vampire version of Xander- but of a vampire version of Xander who had serious pain in his transformation. I would bet that if Xander was just vamped plain and simple, he'd be like Spike- loving his spot of violence, out to kill slayers, big on sex and food. But he's not- Vamp Xander is an effective, disciplined lieutenant with gravitas in the vamp community. He's intelligent and focused on his job/role. But he's not really enjoying things- very un-Xander.

Also, (in a mirror of their human life), Vamp Willow is SO much more devoted to the relationship and attracted to Vamp Xander. SHE wants to make her Angel-torture a threesome with him and he declines. SHE initiates the kiss when they see Cordelia. SHE hangs all over Vamp Xander and strokes him every where they go. And still, Vamp Willow feels liberty to hit on Human Willow and Angel is much more her pet. Meanwhile, Vamp Xander doesn't seem as attracted to Vamp Willow but also, I didn't get the sense that he had mistresses that he may prefer other than his own sessions with Willow's Puppy (seemingly in accordance with her wants). Vamp Xander says with wistfulness that Cordelia was an old crush like he KNOWS that he shouldn't be Willow's boytoy but should have been with others.

Hence, my idea that Willow was just vamped by the Master as a privilege with no comprehension of what being a vampire was as a human. She was born a vampire with no trouble. However, Xander was sired after months of fighting against vampires and being psychologically and possibly physically tortured by Vamp Willow. It took a lot of joy out of him. And hence, my idea that Vamp Willow definitely sired Xander. He was her fantasy- not the other way around.

Local Maximum
12-02-13, 08:36 PM
I wouldn't really put the division of labor that way. However, the difference in Vamp Xander's and Vamp Willow's attitudes, partly, led me to make my canon.

Vamp Willow appears to be everything and everything. She's brutal, sadistic AND calculating and clever. (Also: My personal canon is that Vamp Willow invented the Mass Production Juicer.) She's got big appetites for blood and sex with everyone. She's a perfect dark reflection of who Willow was in life- big appetites and passions, big playfulness, and a clever calculation that is easily distracted through curiousness.

Part of the mirroring, I think, is that vamp!Willow's (implied) position as the Master's favourite mirrors Willow's role in our universe as Buffy's BFF -- which similarly brings out some of the best qualities in human, good Willow. The difference between the Master (in the wishverse) and Buffy is that they, of course, bring out and lead to blossoming different parts of Willow. However, the Master is even more interested in heightening Willow's power and sexuality, even though those are things that Buffy has some (indirect) interest in. With both Buffy and the Master, I think there are some elements of love and affection and some elements of vanity in inspiring Willow to be a little more like themselves. However, dark mirror time -- Buffy the balance is heavily toward love, and with the Master love is only a tiny part of the overall package which is mostly the Master proud that he can see what a wonderful vampire he's made and live vicariously through her.

This is also part of why it's Buffy who is vamp!Willow's greatest (though not sole) obstacle in our world.

This makes me wonder, though -- I do think that vamp!Willow was probably already developing somewhat subconscious, and increasingly conscious jealousies of the Master that would eventually, perhaps by AU season six (had Oz not staked her), lead to a full-on confrontation in which she beat the Master down, in parallel with our Willow and our Buffy.

Then the "season" would end with vamp!Xander going to stop vamp!Willow from, like, trying to re-soul all vampires in the world to make the world a better place out of a moment of despair at the fact that there is not enough pain in the world and vampires maybe have failed at their task at inflicting pain -- so they might as well become creatures of light.

ETA: wait, better. Vamp!Willow eventually becomes interested in witchcraft too. In season six after she does the restoration ritual on the Master's bones, he reveals that he was in a perfect underworld well-suited to him and no longer has any lust for the kill in the present anymore. This eventually leads to her own depression -- she can no longer enjoy killing or sex. Vamp!Willow eventually decides to take the Master on and bests him; but she finds herself overcome with despair at the fact that human pain continues to be finite rather than the infinite she thinks it will. Human joy never stops, no matter what they do. She tries to summon a ball of sunlight to purge the vampires from the planet, before vamp!Xander stops her at the last moment by reminding her how pathetically weak she used to be before being vamped, and how every human like that cannot be allowed to continue like this, both living and uncorrupted. Reluctantly she agrees to stop her sunlight spell and rejoin the fight with renewed commitment to human misery, gradually regaining her own bloodlust and joy and creative spark for imagining new and brutal ways to torture and corrupt the innocent (or the wicked but repentant like Angel).

In season seven, the Master, whose faith in evil has eventually been restored after a brief affair with a slayer, teams up with the First to help raise an army of Ubervamps, and vamp!Willow does a spell to help convert several "chosen" vampires around the world into Ubervamps to help overrun the Earth.

I know it's a bit on the nose as far as the mirroring goes, but I find that kind of fun.

Dipstick
12-02-13, 09:48 PM
Haha, Local_Max. Your light/dark mirroring of Vamp Willow & The Master/Willow & Buffy is hilarious. Still, I must say that my Personal Canon is that Willow has latent powers of witchcraft and magic within her that, along with her intelligence and beauty, attracted the Master to her and led him to sire her. However, Vamp Willow never got into witchcraft. She never had a reason to.

At least when we found Vamp Willow, she was perfectly happy using her preternatural strength and her fellow vamp-compadres to just eat, drink, have sex and be merry through terrorizing. Willow, both vamp and real version, needs pain, feelings of vulnerability, and something to fight for to fuel her personal development. It's the Whedonverse so Willow usually has that but when she feels like indulging in hedonistic pleasures (Smashed/Wrecked, Aluwyn's Wonderland) or even when she's perfectly happy with Oz and nothing really bad is happening to anyone from Graduation Day to Wild At Heart she has a tendency to plateau or even retard progress.

With my canon that Willow developed the Juicer, Vamp Willow is always inventive but she doesn't really start showing ambition until she's thrown off her axis and into the Normalverse. So, Vamp Willow is many months behind Our Willow in becoming a witch.

(Note: A lot of these sentiments are shamelessly stol---borrowed! from Local_Max's notes on Doppelgangland on LJ but with my spin of opinions).


This makes me wonder, though -- I do think that vamp!Willow was probably already developing somewhat subconscious, and increasingly conscious jealousies of the Master that would eventually, perhaps by AU season six (had Oz not staked her), lead to a full-on confrontation in which she beat the Master down, in parallel with our Willow and our Buffy.

Hmm, I don't know if this is a part of the jokey-mirroring thing. Suffice it to say that I don't think Willow was on any real track to have a to-the-death-physical-fight with Buffy in S3. However, I did see cracks in the Willow/Master relationship in a foundation of creepy love and favoritism and Big Fealty.

AH's delivery here cracks me up.

Master: (stands up) She talked of summoning the Slayer here, now, at
this time, and you didn't kill her?
Willow: Well, they had crosses.

It's half pouty and half "you just don't get it, you weren't there". Meanwhile, Xander is listening much more intently like a good lieutenant while Willow is busy cuddling Xander and stroking his chest as she talks back to the Master, sated after draining a girl. Either way, there's an undercurrent of disrespect and an aversion to taking orders from Vamp Willow even though it's covered up by her (a) fear of the Master and (b) the fact that she's too sated and comfortable with her elevated status and man candy and pleasure in playing lesbianness with her food to mount objections.

Meanwhile when Buffy acts like Willow is inadequate (WSWB, Bad Girls, Fear Itself, The Yoko Factor, Tough Love), Willow snaps back passionately because she CARES about both Buffy's opinion and fears the consequences of Buffy leaving others out in the cold which can put Buffy in danger. It's a relationship based in love. Plus, Human Willow is rarely ever sated enough with position and power and pleasures to not really care about how she's being perceived and called out.

Plus, Vamp Willow did mourn her loss of Vamp Xander for a bit- but moved on fast. She didn't give a second of thought to the lack of Master in the Normalverse, but instead, saw an opening for her to bring back her world with riding people as ponies but with Vamp Willow as Boss. Contrast that to how when there's a lack of Buffy in Normal Willow's life, it really bothers Normal Willow and can totally consume her thoughts and goals.

KingofCretins
12-02-13, 10:05 PM
VampWillow struck me as having much more chaotic evil leanings, while VampXander much more neutral/lawful evil. Xander being more a Darla than an Angelus, to stay within the context of vampire pairings. I didn't perceive in him any sort of self-loathing or anything, just a very measured approach. I loved Nick's first scene with Cordy as VampXander, I think he managed to commit to nothing but perhaps bemusement as this nonsensical, tempting entree is babbling at him, I like that his mood hardens just so at mention of the Slayer, etc. He was very... proto-Operative, or perhaps proto-Early to me. I'm not sure that the "real" world didn't catch one hell of a break that it wasn't Xander who, for whatever reason, got Anya's dust spilled on his hand.

I'm very, very glad that they didn't go through with killing Xander in "Dirty Girls", but I gotta admit, seeing FirstXander go for "break you by talking" on Buffy would have been epic television.

Local Maximum
12-02-13, 10:35 PM
Dipstick, I should say that I think my Buffy/Willow : Master/VampWillow comparison goes both ways -- I think that both dynamics have elements of affection but Buffy/Willow have total love and Master/VampWillow just something that's kind of distantly affectionate; and there is a symbiotic relationship wherein Willow feeds Buffy's vanity and Willow gets to feed off Buffy's power which is relatively minor but still present in Buffy/Willow but is totally dominant in Master/VampWillow. So vampWillow is sad that there's no Master, on some level, I think, but it doesn't connect emotionally the way Xander's being alive does, because the VampWillow/VampXander relationship is actually closer to the Willow/Xander one and not an extreme inversion the way Willow/Buffy : Willow/Master is.

I don't think Willow was going to an inevitable fight to the death with Buffy in S3 :). But I think she was inevitably going for a Big Argument with Buffy. That really happened in The Yoko Factor first. But the s6 emphasis is that I think it is not until TTG that Willow stops being in Buffy's shadow. Things get externalized with battles in this show. I think she willingly re-submits to Buffy's will in season seven and season eight is complicated, but the fact that she can eclipse Buffy in power matters.

I guess I think that all relationships that have a fundamental imbalance at their core need to have that imbalance sorted out. Fights to the death (or, more accurately, to the hurt) are the most dramatic way but I think there would be a...Buffy/Willow re-evaluation in terms of what rights Buffy had over Willow some day or another, as there should be. (It sucks for Willow stans' arguments that Willow has to become evil to force the issue which I think had to be forced -- I think Buffy *does* have a tendency to assume only she gets to decide whatever and I don't think that's fair. It works for me in-story though for various reasons.)

I'm happy to see you referencing my Doppelgangland thing (http://2maggie2.livejournal.com/48922.html) (which for non-Dipstick people was co-written with Maggie and her brother, though this is the one set of notes where I claim primary author status). You know, I should have referenced this (http://www3.sympatico.ca/jenoff/btvs316.htm), which has some good points that I think encouraged me to think about the way the Willows' mirroring works. I'm not sure if I agree entirely but I should have acknowledged my debt to it (but it's really hard with fannish writing to source and cite properly, though I'm trying to be more...better about it). An excerpt:


Willow is passive by nature. She rarely takes the initiative. Things just happen to her and she accepts them. Snyder tells her to tutor Percy and she accepts. Giles tells her to break into the mayor's files and she heads to the computer. Percy tells her to write his paper for him and she's ready to do it. Anya wants her help with a spell and she immediately agrees. Her rebellion is limited to mild expressions of unhappiness and eating a banana when it isn't lunch time yet.

When Buffy tries to comfort Willow by telling her vampires don't share the personality of the mortal whose body they take, Angel clearly disagrees. And vampire Willow seems just as passive as Willow, despite all the s&m regalia. She wanders aimlessly through the streets. The gang of vampires attack her, she doesn't seek them out. She's easily dissuaded from her planned action, by Xander when she is beating up Percy and later by Anya when she plans to kill all the people in the Bronze. Anya comes up with a plan, not vampire Willow. And when she returns to her own reality, she just stands there while Oz kills her.

The difference between the Willows was not passive versus aggressive (despite her dominatrix persona vampire Willow wasn't particularly aggressive), it was good versus evil. Willow, whether passively standing by or occasionally acting, is always trying to be good. Vampire Willow was always trying to be evil. When Willow helps Anya, she thinks she's doing a good deed, returning a family heirloom. She actually unleashes vampire Willow. When vampire Willow attacks Percy, she thinks she's doing evil. She'd probably have killed him if Xander hadn't intervened. But her action leads to Percy's reformation, at least for a time.

I think the key moment in this episode occurs when the two Willows confront each other at the Bronze. They both agree on one thing, "this world's no fun". Both Willows seem to be depressed and perhaps their passiveness is a sign of that depression. Vampire Willow is saddened because this world isn't evil enough for her. Willow is sad because this world isn't good enough for her. Both extremes just lead to sorrow. It's interesting that the reformation of Percy helps Willow. When she sees his willingness to do his homework, she's ready to go out with Buffy and have some fun. She had been intending to spend the rest of her life at home, dying a virgin with well flossed teeth. Now she's ready to enter into the world again. Percy reforms because of his confrontation with vampire Willow. Willow's happiness, or at least her chance at happiness, is a result of the merging of the evil of vampire Willow and her own good. She's approaching a middle ground where she can actually live happily.

I hadn't reread this before doing those notes but the main thing I remembered was the point about passivity (which is not entirely right, but has some truth). Anyway!

I agree that vamp!Willow would have no reason to do magic up to The Wish; I could see her wanting to try it eventually afterwards, though I'm not sure what the inciting incident would be. Maybe a major pushback from the White Hats that requires magic to counterbalance them. I agree that Willow works on magic when she needs to -- and that her skills can atrophy when she finds herself in a hedonistic thing of sex, drugs or rock & roll (possibly one day in early s4 she bravely drank beer at one of Oz' concerts and it'd be all three).

Emmie
13-02-13, 12:17 PM
Dipstick, I love your head canon for Willow and Xander in the Wishverse.

It's as if Xander's ability to laugh in the face of danger, that coping mechanism he'd built to survive the abuses handed down from his alcoholic father, had been tortured out of him before he'd been turned into a vampire. That bleak outlook on the world -- the pointlessness of humor -- carried over into his vampire self. It's the sort of bleak, humorlessness we see in Xander after he leaves Anya at the altar. Xander was turned at his lowest, after being broken down, and as a vampire he never gets the opportunity to reclaim the relief he once found in humor.

As for the absence of Darla, perhaps the Master turned Willow with such ease because he was seeking a replacement for his lost favorite. The Master lovingly chose Darla, after all, seeing potential in her and saving her from a dire fate. I can easily imagine similar circumstances with Willow in the early days.


I'm very, very glad that they didn't go through with killing Xander in "Dirty Girls", but I gotta admit, seeing FirstXander go for "break you by talking" on Buffy would have been epic television.

It would've been the ultimate way to twist the knife, especially considering how incredibly, essentially supportive Xander had become during Season 7. For the First to wear his face -- it'd be like dredging up the bitter, antagonistic potential in Xander which we saw back in Season 2 and 3 when he butted heads with Buffy. Only, after having let go of his romantic intentions, Xander's ability to see and know Buffy's weaknesses with a clearer eye, warped into this unmatchable cruelty by the First.

If only the First was Tara tormenting Willow in Conversations with Dead People, the First was Xander tormenting Buffy post-Dirty Girls. (Would we even need Caleb if we had First!Xander?)

Honestly, it's too bad there wasn't a genuine brain-trip episode where Buffy hallucinated the First haunting her as everyone she'd ever loved now dead because she'd failed them all. Buffy has trouble sleeping, but we never see the First truly capitalize on the sort of psychological torment it could no doubt inflict in dreams.

Dipstick
13-02-13, 05:22 PM
Dipstick, I should say that I think my Buffy/Willow : Master/VampWillow comparison goes both ways -- I think that both dynamics have elements of affection but Buffy/Willow have total love and Master/VampWillow just something that's kind of distantly affectionate; and there is a symbiotic relationship wherein Willow feeds Buffy's vanity and Willow gets to feed off Buffy's power which is relatively minor but still present in Buffy/Willow but is totally dominant in Master/VampWillow. So vampWillow is sad that there's no Master, on some level, I think, but it doesn't connect emotionally the way Xander's being alive does, because the VampWillow/VampXander relationship is actually closer to the Willow/Xander one and not an extreme inversion the way Willow/Buffy : Willow/Master is.

Agreed. I tried to picture King of Cretin's hypothetical where Vamp Xander came to our Normalverse. I can't picture him happily exclaiming that Willow is alive, and then feeling up Human Willow and being disappointed and sad that she's alive. There just wasn't the same depth of feeling from Vamp Xander to Vamp Willow as vice a versa.

IMO, Vamp Xander would be very disappointed to arrive in the Normalverse with the slayer. However, he'd make the best of it and just go about his business unliving and eating people in the Normalverse. He'd last longer in our Normalverse than Vamp Willow without any grand ambitions to take over the world, starting with the Bronze. I don't think he'd care about meeting his human self. His aims would like any other garden variety bad-ass vamp- practical, self-preserving but limited in scope.


I guess I think that all relationships that have a fundamental imbalance at their core need to have that imbalance sorted out. Fights to the death (or, more accurately, to the hurt) are the most dramatic way but I think there would be a...Buffy/Willow re-evaluation in terms of what rights Buffy had over Willow some day or another, as there should be. (It sucks for Willow stans' arguments that Willow has to become evil to force the issue which I think had to be forced -- I think Buffy *does* have a tendency to assume only she gets to decide whatever and I don't think that's fair. It works for me in-story though for various reasons.)

Man, despite our agreement on SO much else, we're never going to see eye to eye on the merit of the Dark Willow story nor the level of autonomy and respect Willow had in S7. :lol:

I've been head-canoning on Cordelia so go.....

I think Cordelia's parents cared about her, at root, but through her childhood they showed it in a very shallow air-kissy sort of way. There are hints that Cordelia got more attention and care and love than Willow and Xander but without the depth and discipline and warmth that Joyce provided. Cordelia did arrive out of the box as a girl who'd been convinced that she's important and beautiful and special. That sort of self-confidence usually comes, partly, from home. I don't think Cordelia got all of her entitlement from Harmony or male suitors.

I also think it's significant that her parents take Cordelia on their vacations- to Tuscany and resorts and skiing in Aspen. Dragging an unwilling, ungrateful child on an expensive, long trip that demands that the family hangs together as they ski or explore Italy usually strikes me as something that close families do. Contrast that to Willow's parents who seem to travel frequently by themselves and never take her. I.e. Ira and Shelia were visiting relatives in Phoenix during Becoming and didn't think to postpone the family reunion trip by like a week when school broke for summer vacation to include Willow. That's effed up.

Cordelia's dad isn't aware enough that Cordelia's been necking with guys and still thinks she's a "good girl" but Cordelia does have to take her car to Lover's Lane or get out of the house to get physical with guys. Contrast that to Willow who can have Oz, Xander and Angel up to her room, get physical with Oz and Xander, and friggin seduce Oz in the living room and none of the Senior Rosenbergs are the wiser that she's flouting their rules.

However, it was incredibly shallow love. I do think that Cordelia was closer to her dad than her mom. However, the Chases failed to have honest conversations about love, follow through on rules for Cordelia, correct her behavior, and ultimately, find a way to deal with adversity as a family. The Senior Chases set up a familial dynamic based on money, even though I see indications above of deeper feelings from Cordy's parents.

IMO because money played such a huge role in their raison de'tre as a family, the Chases splintered angrily when they lost everything. Cordelia's dad probably went to prison for such huge, long-term tax evasion.

But I do think that even though the Chases screwed up on how they split, Cordelia's parents would have wanted to patch things up with their daughter and they were probably bitterly upset that she died young before they could fix things.

Local Maximum
13-02-13, 06:04 PM
Man, despite our agreement on SO much else, we're never going to see eye to eye on the merit of the Dark Willow story nor the level of autonomy and respect Willow had in S7. :lol:

lol. Well, I can always not bring it up.... :p

Vampire in Rug
13-02-13, 07:30 PM
In another thread I came up with my own personal canon rules for Buffyverse time travel.

Excessive time-travel to a period that's very far back in time is disruptive to the fabric of the universe. If you time travel to a period that's more than a few weeks away, you open up the universe to foreign demon invasion.

The Trio's time loop was safe because that was only a few hours. The PTB reversing time for Angel in IWRY was safe because that was only one day. Illyria bouncing around in Time Bomb was also safe because that was only the span of a day. However, excessive meddling in time periods that are beyond that require not only massive energy to even get there, but they weaken the fabric of reality.

In After the Fall, the Senior Partners transport LA to a Hell dimension. This lasts for several months. Angel figures out that if he kills himself, W&H will be forced to undo this with a temporal fold. W&H want Angel to be alive again, so they are forced to restore reality the way it was several months ago when LA was not in Hell.

However, in the IDW ongoing, we learn that this temporal fold allowed for the hellgod James to enter this reality. It also allowed for a trio of demons named Discord, Disharmony and Cacophony to enter this reality and almost end the world.

In Angel & Faith, Faith suggests to Giles that maybe she could go back in time to prevent herself from killing the innocent vulcanologist. Giles is pretty quick to dismiss this idea.

In season 9 Severin is trying to steal Illyria's time travel abilites and plans to go back in time several months to save his girlfriend. Buddha mentions that if Severin tries to change an event in the past, it could "damage this realm more than it's already been damaged."

The only way past this restriction, to travel to the deep past or the far future, is if a lot of magic is used to open a portal on both sides, then a demon is exchanged from the past of future for a single person. The demon acts as an "anchor" to prevent disruption to the universe. Even then it's only a one-for-one deal. This is how Buffy is able to travel back and meet those ancient African Shadow-men in Get it Done. It's also how Buffy is able to be transported to the Frayverse in Time of Your Life.

I'm unsure how Sajahn is able to fit into all of this though. Any ideas?

I just remembered that in the IDW ongoing, W&H from the future transported Angel to the future so that he could help them eliminate James. Perhaps the disruption caused by this was what allowed Twilight to enter this reality? W&H really suck at this if so... they transported LA to Hell in order to break Angel's spirit. When that didn't work, they were forced to restore LA to normal... but the disruption to the universe allowed James in. Then in the future, James had taken over the world, so W&H summon Angel to the future to give him info to defeat James. Illyria sends Angel back to the past. Angel defeats James, but THAT disruption allows Twilight to begin. At this point, W&H flees this dimension. They keep stabbing themselves in the foot it seems.

I understand that there was also a time-travelling demon from one of the Tales of the Slayer stories? How did this one work?

I'm also not sure how I can reconcile the Wishverse with my time-travel fanon. Maybe Anya creating the Wishverse was what allowed Glory to wake up inside Ben? Seems kind of contrived, I know...

KingofCretins
13-02-13, 08:21 PM
Agreed. I tried to picture King of Cretin's hypothetical where Vamp Xander came to our Normalverse. I can't picture him happily exclaiming that Willow is alive, and then feeling up Human Willow and being disappointed and sad that she's alive. There just wasn't the same depth of feeling from Vamp Xander to Vamp Willow as vice a versa.

IMO, Vamp Xander would be very disappointed to arrive in the Normalverse with the slayer. However, he'd make the best of it and just go about his business unliving and eating people in the Normalverse. He'd last longer in our Normalverse than Vamp Willow without any grand ambitions to take over the world, starting with the Bronze. I don't think he'd care about meeting his human self. His aims would like any other garden variety bad-ass vamp- practical, self-preserving but limited in scope.

See, I think the reason they caught a break is that, being just as proper an acolyte of the Master as Willow, but more patient/reserved, he very much would have grand ambitions to take over the world -- starting with not the Bronze. We don't have any particular reason to think this is a less evil creature than VampWillow, but two pretty big ones to assume that he is (he's a vampire, period, but also one that's a highly placed lieutenant of the Master, who was never one to abide ambivalently evil vampires in his midst).

Frankly, if you could have gotten the pair -- VampXander and VampWillow -- you'd have had a scarier big bad duo than Spike and Dru.

Dipstick
13-02-13, 10:16 PM
Man, despite our agreement on SO much else, we're never going to see eye to eye on the merit of the Dark Willow story nor the level of autonomy and respect Willow had in S7.


lol. Well, I can always not bring it up.... :p

Aw, Local Max. You know that I'm a big fan of *your meta* on S6-7 Willow, even if I have loads of problems with the story.


See, I think the reason they caught a break is that, being just as proper an acolyte of the Master as Willow, but more patient/reserved, he very much would have grand ambitions to take over the world -- starting with not the Bronze. We don't have any particular reason to think this is a less evil creature than VampWillow, but two pretty big ones to assume that he is (he's a vampire, period, but also one that's a highly placed lieutenant of the Master, who was never one to abide ambivalently evil vampires in his midst).

I don't know about "evil", but Vamp Xander *did* strike me as less voracious and vicious than Vamp Willow. He'd rather watch Vamp Willow torture Angel than participate. Vamp Willow is the one who "loves all the parts". Not to mention that in life, Willow is the one with grand plans and ambitions that can become hubris. Not so much Xander. So, particularly with my canon about how Vamp Willow tortured a White Hat Xander, I really buy that Vamp Xander wouldn't be so ambitious, so fool-hardy, with such large evilly childlike appetites as to want the people-pony-riding NOW that he'd want to take over a world with a slayer, as a three year old vamp.


Frankly, if you could have gotten the pair -- VampXander and VampWillow -- you'd have had a scarier big bad duo than Spike and Dru.

Eh. Vamp Willow's and Vamp Xander's biggest strength seemed to be that vampires ruled Sunnydale so they could prowl around all bad-ass. I do think that human!Willow and human!Xander are made of much stronger stuff than William and human!Dru. However, I wouldn't bet on three year old vampires with seemingly no magic or special powers between them over a pair of multi-century vampires, one of whom is a seer and a hypnotist. Wishverse Buffy more easily staked Vamp Xander and Buffy almost staked Vamp Willow more easily that she ever go to the staking point with Spike, although she did capture a weakened Dru pretty quickly in Lie to Me.

Local Maximum
14-02-13, 01:57 AM
Aw, Local Max. You know that I'm a big fan of *your meta* on S6-7 Willow, even if I have loads of problems with the story.

:) No, I know (and thanks!), I just had a flash of embarrassment, imagining how, uh, quirky I might sound. :lol:

Dipstick
14-02-13, 03:56 PM
More Wishverse canon.

The Master rose as he planned in The Harvest. The Master and his subordinates spent his first several weeks gathering and making a vamp army. Conditions were rapidly deteriorating in Sunnydale and the Master's rise in The Harvest resulted in a lot of dead teenagers to fuel the Master's power. But most of the clueless Sunnydale citizens couldn't put their finger on the problem and continued acting like nothing was wrong.

Then on a busy Saturday night, the Master and his huge army of new vamps announced their new ruling power by taking over the Bronze and brutally raping, torturing and killing every person in the Bronze and then walked out into the street where the Bronze is located and murdered everyone in the shops and cafes. In that night, the Master took over the Bronze as his headquarters and Sunnydale wised up to vampires.

That's the incident where Angel tried to fight against the army in a desperate attempt to save everyone but the Master knew who he was and insisted that he be chained and given to his new favorite, Willow, as a pet.

TimeTravellingBunny
06-03-13, 10:19 PM
There's been a lot of talk recently about the whole Angel/Angelus thing. However, there's something that many people tend to forget, and that I realized when I rewatched the first two seasons of BtVS last year: the habit of calling souled!Angel "Angel" and soulless!Angel "Angelus" was something that only started late in season 3, in the episode Enemies. In seasons 1 and 2, most people were using both names regardless of whether it was the souled or soulless version of the vampire played by David Boreanaz. The only one to ever use "Angelus" to indicate soulless Angel in season 2 was Jenny Calendar; but everyone else, including Buffy and Giles but also Darla, The Master, Spike and Dru, and even Angel(us) himself, were constantly using "Angel" for both the souled and the soulless version. (Some particularly interesting examples: when Buffy says "You're not Angel" in Innocence, his reply is "Wrong! I'm Angel at last; Drusilla greets the return of soulless Angel calling him "Angel!", not Angelus, before he says "Yeah, baby, I'm back"; Spike uses Angelus for souled!Angel when he says "I preferred the earlier, Slayer-whipped Angelus".) This debunks the theory that "Angelus" was the exclusive name he was using as soulless and evil mass murderer, and that "Angel" was only the name he developed later for his new personality. If that were the case, then Spike and Dru would never have called him "Angel" in season 2 - they wouldn't have even known about this name, since they had never met souled!Angel before (that they were aware of)!

So, I've developed my own personal canon theory to try to make sense of it all. I might have written about it before, but not in this thread.

Vampire! Liam called himself Angel out of a dark irony because that’s what his sister thought he was when he came back as a vampire. But he started using the Latin word because he thought it sounded cooler and more dangerous, and this became the name that he was known by in Watcher’s books and among the populace. But those close to him, like Spike, Dru and Darla, often called him simply “Angel”. (Angel and Angelus are, of course, just the English and the Latin version of the same name.) The Angel/Angelus divide is something that someone only started in 1999 (season 3 of BtVS), and Cordelia and Wesley latched onto it and carried it on later in AtS because it was easier to use those shorthands and they were more comfortable with thinking about their friend that way. Angel, who himself never thought “Angelus” was a different personality, eventually just went along with it when they would say it, but never made an attempt to argue something like that with Darla or Spike.



I don't know about "evil", but Vamp Xander *did* strike me as less voracious and vicious than Vamp Willow. He'd rather watch Vamp Willow torture Angel than participate. Vamp Willow is the one who "loves all the parts".

And he loves that she loves all the parts. So Vamp Xander prefers to watch his girlfriend torture someone to torturing him himself. Does that actually makes him less sadistic? Probably not... only more voyeuristic.

MikeB
03-04-13, 12:50 AM
All caught up

I’m going to try to not respond to speculation.


* Joss Whedon is the only arbiter of canon regarding the Buffyverse.


* I’m not going to address “What the point of the episode is ___________.” stuff.




Vampire in Rug

* My quote: “Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” was canon. Joss Whedon after he read it gave canon approval for Ring of Fire . Also, Long Night’s Journey used to be canon.”

This is true. Are you going to give the citation for Peter David first coming up with “William Pratt”?


* Willow turned AngelTwilight into a frog and it seems she could have killed AngelTwilight.


It's a stretch that anyone would live in regular Sunnydale to begin with, As we saw with Nancy in “Beneath You” (7.02) most of the Sunnnydale residents don’t know there are actually vampires, monsters, and demons in Sunndyale.


The Wishverse doesn't really make it that much more unbelievable to what it is already. That’s laughable. You may as well say a town with a relatively high murder rate is similar to a Nazi concentration camp.


Your reasons for why the rich people wouldn't just move out of Wishverse Sunnydale applies to regular Sunnydale too, although to a lesser extent. This argument simply concludes the Wishverse isn’t what the town of Sunnydale would have actually been like.


it's a stretch that the government isn't doing much to combat the vampires in regular Sunnydale. Are you forgetting about the Initiative?


My quote: “Why wouldn’t Buffy be in the town that’s ruled by vampires?”

Because that was the entire point of the wish: that Buffy wouldn't be there. Exactly – The Wishverse isn’t based on what would actually happen had Joyce decided to move to some other town.


Angel got captured at some point when he was trying to save some people from the Master. Angel was scared of the Master to the point that he didn’t want to go in the sewers with Buffy.


* Anya’s not so much afraid of rabbits as what they represent to her: Olaf cheating on her.



KingofCretins


Hadn't [Buffy and Co.] established at some point previously that he was eluding attempts at magical detection? No? To know where someone is, Willow would need to know who or what she’s tracking.


Regarding the Wishverse:

* If a town was ruled by vampires, those vampires would have been wiped out. If a nuke were the only plausible way to do that, Sunnydale would be nuked. It’s silly to think the rest of the world wouldn’t know the town was ruled by vampires unless some kind of spell was done over Sunnydale something like what happened with Hell-LA (if that’s canon). But we never even saw a witch in the Wishverse.


* Buffy was the one who killed Luke, and she did it by tricking him. The White Hats killed Luke and Darla? Who was the Master’s Vessel in the Wishverse?


I could also see [Luke and Darla] both being out setting up franchises for the Master, realizing he had two very eager and able new Dragons* in Xander and Willow. Except there’s no mention of this and no there’s no mention of other towns being overrun by vampires.


I think Xander and Willow both could replace the functions served by Luke and Darla, but with the genders reversed. Luke and Willow being the more actual Dragon, the brutal and sadistic enforcer, while Xander and Darla were more like vampire consigliere, more reserved and calculating lieutenants. Except Darla wasn’t a consigliere to the Master, and VampireWillow is obviously going to be smarter than VampireXander so she’d more likely be an adviser to the Master than Xander would.

________________________________________________


Frankly, if you could have gotten the pair -- VampXander and VampWillow – [in the Buffyverse (being out of the Wishverse)] you'd have had a scarier big bad duo than Spike and Dru. That is beyond laughable.



Dipstick


[Regarding the Wishverse:] Vamp Xander is an effective, disciplined lieutenant with gravitas in the vamp community. He's intelligent and focused on his job/role. VampireXander is pretty much “VampireWillow’s boyfriend.” We don’t see him do much and we don’t have a “Doppelgangland”-episode with him. How’s he shown to be intelligent?

For all we know, that couple works somewhat like if Spike and Harmony had stayed together and Spike actually liked Harmony.

________________________________________________


I do think that human!Willow and human!Xander are made of much stronger stuff than William and human!Dru. Well, you have to compare pre-meeting Buffy Summers Willow and Xander with human William Pratt and Drusilla Keeble. VampireWillow didn’t seem to have any magical powers. And if someone did to her what Angel did to Dru, who knows how she’d turn out. William Pratt is more intelligent, intellectual, and educated than Xander Harris. And nothing suggests pre-“Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01) Xander stood up to bullies and whatnot.

Jack Shaftoe
03-04-13, 04:56 PM
If a town was ruled by vampires, those vampires would have been wiped out. If a nuke were the only plausible way to do that, Sunnydale would be nuked. It’s silly to think the rest of the world wouldn’t know the town was ruled by vampires unless some kind of spell was done over Sunnydale something like what happened with Hell-LA (if that’s canon). But we never even saw a witch in the Wishverse.

Maybe Spike cast a spell to trap the Master in Sunnydale or something? ;)


As we saw with Nancy in “Beneath You” (7.02) most of the Sunnnydale residents don’t know there are actually vampires, monsters, and demons in Sunndyale.

Which is exactly why it makes no sense that people are actually living in Sunnydale. No way people wouldn't notice all the weird stuff in a week, let alone years.


Well, you have to compare pre-meeting Buffy Summers Willow and Xander with human William Pratt and Drusilla Keeble.

No, you don't. I didn't know Buffy had the magical power of vastly improving people in every respect by merely befriending them. It would be very silly to discount Willwo and Xander's personal development and rely on basically ten minutes of footage from the first episode just because you want to "prove" that your favourite characters are better than somebody else's.


VampireWillow didn’t seem to have any magical powers

Not every vampire can be a powerful spell caster like say Spike, true.

Vampire in Rug
03-04-13, 05:06 PM
* Joss Whedon is the only arbiter of canon regarding the Buffyverse.

Unless of course we are talking about the A&F comics, in which case MikeB is the arbiter of canon and gets to declare which scenes and which issues are non-canon.



Vampire in Rug

* My quote: “Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” was canon. Joss Whedon after he read it gave canon approval for Ring of Fire . Also, Long Night’s Journey used to be canon.”

This is true.


You can keep quoting yourself all you like, that doesn't make it true. I notice that you *still* can't provide a single shred of evidence supporting their canon status beyond your say-so. Funny that.

The Origin was released in 1999 and I can quite easily find quotes from Joss to support it's canon status. Spike and Dru: Paint the Town Red was released in the same year, and Ring of Fire was released in 2000, making it *even more recent* than The Origin. Yet you can't cite a single source apart from yourself that supports the idea of these books ever being canon.

This thread is for *personal canon*, so if you enjoyed those stories and want to adopt them into your personal canon, that's great. But let's not get basic facts wrong and say that the books were marketed by Joss as canon.

"Paint the Town Red" and "Ring of Fire" are, and always were as non-canon as the rest of the pre-season 8 comics (barring a few exceptions). You are the only person I've seen try to argue otherwise.

For what it's worth, here's what Scott Allie has to say on the subject:

AndrewCrossett: The question of "canon" has reared its head again with all this business with squaring things up with the IDW comics. The usual (but not universally accepted) definition is that anything Joss writes or supervises is canon, and everything else is stuff done under license from Fox -- official, but not canon. "Canon" is the stuff that Joss himself considers part of *his* story, and that will be recognized as part of the history of these characters when he writes about them.

The usual list of comics canon is: From Dark Horse -- Buffy season 8 and the ancillary webcomics; Tales of the Slayers; Tales of the Vampires; Fray; Buffy: The Origin. And from IDW, the After the Fall comics he plotted with Brian. (Issues 1-17 and 23).

Are there any other Dark Horse comics we should be accepting as canon?

Scott Allie: Nope, those are them. Obviously all our Serenity stuff is canon, but in terms of Buffy, I think your list covers it. I don't count as canon those early comics we did with Jane and Doug, before Joss was working directly with us, like Ring of Fire and Haunted. With the old Buffy comics, of which I did a LOT, the goal was to do stories that fit with canon, that didn't conflict with anything, and which would never call your attention to their non-canon status. That goes for everything in the Omnibuses with the obvious exception of Origin. But maintaining that dance between canon and non-canon got so difficult toward the end that I launched back to Year One, and told stories that I was pretty sure Joss would never contradict, only because I knew he'd never flashback very much. For those Year One comics, I talked to him about what I was gonna do, and he told me it was okay, nixed an idea or two. But the concept of canon in licensed comics has really evolved in recent years. Season 8 has a lot to do with that, and a lot to do with comics like Jericho, and IDW's Star Trek Countdown—nothing like this was being done ten years ago. Well, maybe something was, but not to this extent.



Are you going to give the citation for Peter David first coming up with “William Pratt”?

After less than a minute on google, here's what I got.

From the Spike page on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer))

"William's surname is given as "Pratt" in the non-canon comic Old Times and is written on the label of his jar of blood in the comic Spike: Asylum #002. The name William Pratt may allude to horror actor Boris Karloff, whose birth name was William Henry Pratt, and can also be understood as the British slang term "prat", describing a person of arrogant stupidity."

Then there is this Whedonesque page. (http://whedonesque.com/comments/7777)

Unfortunetly, the Newsarama page that it links to seems to have been taken down (it was quite a while ago, 2005 so not really surprising that the page is not still up). On the Whedonesque page Spike: Old Times is described as the "comic book which gave us Spike's name in full." The comments on the page indicate that people are learning Spike's last name for the first time.

I also found THIS PAGE (http://www.whedon.info/Peter-David-clarifies-some-aspects.html) which seems to be part of the interview Peter David did for the Newsarama site from the page that is no longer there. Peter apparently said:

"Really ? Nothing new ? I just...I’m not sure what to say to that. In a book that gives you Spike’s last name, Halfrek’s origin, explains just what she was doing there that night in London in 1880, and draws a definitive connection between Halfrek and Cecily when the show just left it to conjecture, I’m kind of stunned that you would say there was nothing new there.

PAD"

I'm guessing that was in response to a fan complaint that Old Times offered "nothing new".

So there you go. A few minutes in google and that's what I came up with. I know you've claimed in the past that Joss himself revealed Spike's surname to be Pratt in an interview during season 5, but I'm quite sure you are misremembering. Joss Whedon quotes are generally more documented than Peter David quotes when it comes to the Buffyverse, so if you still don't believe me then it should be a piece of cake for you to find that interview that proves me wrong. It should also be a piece of cake for you to find some shred of evidence somewhere that "Ring of Fire" or "Paint the Town Red are/were canon.



* Willow turned AngelTwilight into a frog and it seems she could have killed AngelTwilight.

I've already explained that I find that idea stupid. Making Willow OverPowered takes away all of the danger and tension of the big bad. Hence why my personal fanon is that Twilight had magical defences and was able to turn himself back from a frog after a few moments. I happen to find it stupid that Willow can OHKO the most powerful big bad we've seen. If you don't agree, that's fine but this is the thread for *personal canon* and I don't think it's that much of a stretch that Twilight-Angel could have magical defences It's certainly no more outrageous than some of your ideas that I've seen. And again, even if you disagree, this is the thread for personal canon.


As we saw with Nancy in “Beneath You” (7.02) most of the Sunnnydale residents don’t know there are actually vampires, monsters, and demons in Sunndyale.

And you don't think it's a stretch that the Sunnydale citizens don't know about vampires, monsters and demons after all these years? This is a trope, it's called Weirdness Censor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeirdnessCensor). Many of the citizens do know that something weird is going on in Sunnydale, they just refuse to acknowledge it. When Giles says "People rationalize what they can and forget what they can't," that's not even a remotely believable explanation for people not knowing about the monster attacks that happen every single day. It's a hand-wave explanation for why the scoobies are "in the know" about the supernatural, but most regular people are not.


That’s laughable. You may as well say a town with a relatively high murder rate is similar to a Nazi concentration camp.

Regular Sunnydale had what, seven or so *apocalypses* -that we know about. Not to mention all the large supernatural events that affected everyone in the town at some point. What's "laughable" is that anyone would choose to live in Sunnydale at the best of times. The difference between regular Sunnydale and Wishverse Sunnydale is not as great as a the difference between a normal city with a high murder rate and a Nazi concentration camp. That's a pretty huge exaggeration on your part.

You really do have to suspend your disbelief in to accept that in regular Sunnydale, most people don't know about the supernatural. You really have to suspend your disbelief to buy the idea that vampires weren't public knowledge until season 8. They've been around almost as long as human civilization and you're telling me that there were no attention seeking vampires prior to Harmony? You accept that no vampires *ever* were discovered and studied and made public knowledge? The Buffyverse at the best of times expects you to suspend your disbelief, so I don't think that the Wishverse was really that much more of a stretch.

Maybe the Hellmouth in regular Sunnydale was affecting people and making them subconsciously not want to accept the reality of vampires. Maybe in the Wishverse the Hellmouth was subconsciously making people not want to leave even though it was dangerous to live there? Maybe the government put a giant wall around the city to contain the vampire "disease"? I don't know. The show needs you to accept so much that wouldn't realistically happen already, I don't see why the Wishverse is that big of a deal for you to accept.


Are you forgetting about the Initiative?

The Initiative was a relatively recent development in season 4. Realistically, the government and the military should have stepped in to do something about vampires long before the Initiative.


Exactly – The Wishverse isn’t based on what would actually happen had Joyce decided to move to some other town.

Dude, the entire *premise* of the Wish was that Buffy wouldn't be there. Your argument against that is that you find it unrealistic that Buffy's not active in the town that is ruled by vampires. Buffy not being there is the entire premise, if you can't accept that then I don't know what to say. That's like someone saying that they can't enjoy BtVS because vampires aren't real. Or that Superman isn't what would "actually happen" because a man can't really fly. Whether or not Buffy being in Sunnydale is what would "actually" happen had Joyce decided to move to another town is completely besides the point. Cordelia's wish required Buffy to not be there. Also, you don't know what the situation in Cleveland was like or what circumstances led up to Buffy moving to Cleveland.


Angel was scared of the Master to the point that he didn’t want to go in the sewers with Buffy.

And yet in the actual episode we learn that Angel got captured when he tried to save a bunch of people. We don't know what kind of personal development Angel had in the Wishverse by that point, or what the situation was when he got captured. Yes, BtVS Angel in season 1 was scared of the Master in the very first episode. Who knows what experiences and growth season 3 Wishverse Angel had experienced.



* Anya’s not so much afraid of rabbits as what they represent to her: Olaf cheating on her.

I'm glad you could clear that up for me. So what irrational phobia did Cordelia get when Xander cheated on her? What phobia did Oz/Willow/Spike/Buffy get when they were cheated on?




* If a town was ruled by vampires, those vampires would have been wiped out. If a nuke were the only plausible way to do that, Sunnydale would be nuked. It’s silly to think the rest of the world wouldn’t know the town was ruled by vampires unless some kind of spell was done over Sunnydale something like what happened with Hell-LA (if that’s canon).

I don't think the government is quite so casual when it comes to nuking a town.

We only saw what, a couple of days in the Wishverse? We know pretty much nothing about its history or what the rest of the world knows. Maybe there is a spell around Sunnydale like Hell-A. Who knows.


But we never even saw a witch in the Wishverse.

We never saw Spike doing that spell to contain Acathla, yet you insist that it happened off-screen. So anything is possible I guess. Just because we didn't see a witch in that *one episode* set in the Wishverse doesn't mean that there wasn't one or that the rest of the world not knowing/caring about Sunnydale couldn't have been because of some kind of magical influence. Really, who knows.



* Buffy was the one who killed Luke, and she did it by tricking him. The White Hats killed Luke and Darla? Who was the Master’s Vessel in the Wishverse?

I would assume that Luke was still the Master's vessel. The Harvest happened at the start of season 1 and the Wish took place in season 3. That is *plenty* of time for the Whitehats to dust Darla and Luke at some point. I'm not saying that the Whitehats definitely did dust Luke and Darla, just that it's possible. An ordinary person can have "one good day" where they dust a strong vampire, just because Luke gave Buffy a hard time, that doesn't mean that a regular person couldn't kill Luke in a different set of circumstances.

Or maybe Luke and Darla were backstabbed by vampire Xander and Willow so that they could become the Master's new favourites.

Or maybe the Master sent them to another town on some mission.

Or maybe it was just their day off and they were relaxing.

There are plenty of possible explanations for why Luke and Darla weren't seen in the Wishverse.


Except there’s no mention of this and no there’s no mention of other towns being overrun by vampires.

Just because there's no mention of it, who'se to say it didn't happen? Since when has something not being mentioned ever stopped you from inventing your own personal canon? We've got no idea what the rest of the world was like in the Wishverse. Or maybe Luke and Darla left to set up a new franchise only the day before.



That is beyond laughable.

This is the personal canon thread. Is it really necessary to tear down other people's ideas like this? Especially when so many of your own ideas are "beyond laughable".


VampireWillow didn’t seem to have any magical powers.

Doing the spell to restore Angel's soul was what first got Willow into magic. In the Wishverse she wouldn't have done that so she presumably may not have tried doing magic before. But I would assume that she would still have the same potential if she ever showed an interest.


And if someone did to her what Angel did to Dru, who knows how she’d turn out.

Maybe Willow would turn out exactly the same as Drusilla. Maybe Willow would be a broken and weak vampire. Maybe Willow would be *even more badass* than Dru. Who knows.


William Pratt is more intelligent, intellectual, and educated than Xander Harris. And nothing suggests pre-“Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01) Xander stood up to bullies and whatnot.

Is this personal canon, or just another excuse to unfavourably compare Xander to Spike? Since when does education have anything to do with the badassery level of a vampire?

Nikki
04-04-13, 11:02 AM
It seems the last dose of warnings didn't stop the insults.. you are all walking on very thin ice right now. Debate without comments like "that is laughable" or any of the other sly insults being flung around or I will hand out temporary bans to everyone involved.

1701EarlGrey
06-04-13, 11:08 AM
For me - and apparently for the most BTVS fans - only think that is canon is seven seasons of TV show and nothing else. Comics were huge disappointment, I don't like direction it went so I stopped reading them and I choose to ignore them. Only comics I could treat as my personal canon are some of the prequels Buffy: Orygins (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/The_Origin), Slayer, Interrupted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slayer,_Interrupted), Viva Las Buffy! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viva_Las_Buffy!). This and nothing more.

Dipstick
08-04-13, 10:42 PM
I don't know whether this is "my" canon because I think it's so obvious to any thinking mind. However, there IS written material about Glory. Glory WAS researchable. The Scoobies (especially Tara) were wrong and stupid in this conversation in Shadow:


TARA: Maybe she's not in the books.
WILLOW: What do you mean?
TARA: I mean, what if she's not a demon or sorceress or spirit or whatever these books cover? (Giles looks over at her as he rings up the sale) What if she's something else altogether?
GILES: Thank you, come again. (Hands item to customer and comes out from behind counter toward the table) Something new, you mean?
TARA: (shakes head) Something old. So old it pre-dates the written word.
WILLOW: (thinks of something) Giles, the Dagon sphere. You said that was created to repel...
GILES: That which cannot be named. (removes glasses thoughtfully)
WILLOW: So I'm thinking maybe she...
GILES: Predates language itself?

Willow nods significantly. Xander looks puzzled.
XANDER: Well hey, if it means I don't have to read any more, woo! And might I add a big hoo!
GILES: If Tara's right, then we're blind. There's ... there's no way we can determine ... her moves, her habits, where she'll turn up next-

It's just all so stupid. Of course, she can be named. She's named Glorificus. What kind of a leap of logic is is to say that someone who predated the written word won't appear in books?!

How many things predated the written word but exist now (like Glory seemed to in Shadow) and are written about? Hmm, the sun, water, grass, etc.

How many things predated the written word on Earth but never existed afterward (not exactly Glory's case- but somewhat analogous to how Glory didn't show up on Earth until recently- which the Scoobies did NOT know until Shadow)? Earth's original primordial soup, wooly mammoths, Neanderthals, etc.

IMO, the legend of Glory was written about and codified. There's no way to assemble a large international organization like the Knights of Byzantium focused on them defeating Glory without internal memos and some body of written work on their whole raison de'tre. The Watcher's Council were able to effectively research Glory back in England- which leads me to believe that they had written material on her.

Shadow treats Tara like she's on some break-through with Giles and Willow hopping on her band-wagon and Tara saying her theory with, like, Karl Rovian levels of confidence. IMO, the rest of the season proved that she was a gibbering moron then. My goodness, if something predates the written word, it won't be written about...That's one for the ages!

1701EarlGrey
09-04-13, 01:10 AM
It's just all so stupid. Of course, she can be named. She's named Glorificus. What kind of a leap of logic is is to say that someone who predated the written word won't appear in books?!

How many things predated the written word but exist now (like Glory seemed to in Shadow) and are written about? Hmm, the sun, water, grass, etc.

How many things predated the written word on Earth but never existed afterward (not exactly Glory's case- but somewhat analogous to how Glory didn't show up on Earth until recently- which the Scoobies did NOT know until Shadow)? Earth's original primordial soup, wooly mammoths, Neanderthals, etc.

IMO, the legend of Glory was written about and codified. There's no way to assemble a large international organization like the Knights of Byzantium focused on them defeating Glory without internal memos and some body of written work on their whole raison de'tre. The Watcher's Council were able to effectively research Glory back in England- which leads me to believe that they had written material on her.

Shadow treats Tara like she's on some break-through with Giles and Willow hopping on her band-wagon and Tara saying her theory with, like, Karl Rovian levels of confidence. IMO, the rest of the season proved that she was a gibbering moron then. My goodness, if something predates the written word, it won't be written about...That's one for the ages!

I don't think it is. They wanted to show as that Glory was truly ancient so there was very little information about her. For example in the past people didn't knew anything about those Mammoths you were talking about, because cave people didn't know how to write so they didn't pass down their knowledge about Mammoths and future generation didn't know anything about them.

The thing is that -for all we know - Glorificus didn't existed on our plane of existence before Ben was born. So she was around only 20-30 years. Before that people probably know very little about her because she either didn't interfere in affairs of our world or she did it so long ago that almost all information about her was lost - contact took placed before writen word existed... It could be compared to Reapers (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Reaper) in "Mass Effect" series - every 50 000 years, they attack and harvest all organic life in the galaxy but because periods between their attacks are so long and because Reapers destroy all advanced civilizations, all knowledge about them is lost and almost no one knows that they even existed. Same can be said about Glory.

Dipstick
09-04-13, 02:32 AM
I don't think it is. They wanted to show as that Glory was truly ancient so there was very little information about her. For example in the past people didn't knew anything about those Mammoths you were talking about, because cave people didn't know how to write so they didn't pass down their knowledge about Mammoths and future generation didn't know anything about them.

Actually, if you'll scroll below (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth) there is Native American folk stories that people think were about the mammoth.

From what we ended up knowing, the Knights of Byzantium was a huge international army that mobilized because of Glory and the Monks cast an incredibly complicated spell which was a huge project as a defensive maneuver against Glory. The Watchers Council was able to research and give the whole skinny on Glory without ever meeting the goddess of home perms herself. Apparently, a species of creatures serve Glory and she draws worshipers from demons like the Doc who you wouldn't expect.

IMO, it's impossible that these three ancient organizations do what they did as well as any number of worshipers and servants who were part of the Religion on Glory without leaving a pretty big paper trail about Glory. Glory was definitely written about.


The thing is that -for all we know - Glorificus didn't existed on our plane of existence before Ben was born. So she was around only 20-30 years. Before that people probably know very little about her because she either didn't interfere in affairs of our world or she did it so long ago that almost all information about her was lost - contact took placed before writen word existed...

For other personal canon given the seeming age and legacy of the Monks and the Knights and the fact that the religion around her seemed older than Scientology, I find it impossible to believe that no one heard of Glory until just twenty years ago. Willow, Buffy and the Angel's gang may act like they're the only people to have traveled to other dimensions and back to earth but I don't believe that's true either. Someone fed General Gregor the story about the triumverate of hellgods and how Glory was the worst and blah blah blah. How else did he get the information- a personal candid interview with Glory?

There have to have been other people that travel to other dimensions or know demons that traveled to other dimensions who have written about those experiences Marco Polo-style. IMO, that's how General Grego knew about the Legend of the Clique of Hell-Goddess and How Glory was Like Regina George and YOU CAN'T SIT WITH US.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvz8d8Ftmy1qa2ijmo1_500.gif

So, I think it's pretty much definite that Glory's legends and modes of worship were codified- for the Knights, the Monks, the Council and likely her worshipers like Doc. And that's knowing what we know- that Glory was in another dimension until the last twenty years.

Looking at Tara's comments from the POV of what the Scoobies knew in Shadow, I'm still puzzled by the logic in assuming that a very showy, flashy woman is so powerful and strong that she unnerves Buffy who the Scoobies have no reason to believe hasn't been on earth the whole time is too....old to have been written about. Like Tara is saying that because Glory has been here since before the Stone Age, she can't have been written about. The stupidity of that (and Willow and Giles acting like it's a good point) is just overwhelming.

Yosso
15-04-13, 11:17 AM
Actually, if you'll scroll below (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth) there is Native American folk stories that people think were about the mammoth.

From what we ended up knowing, the Knights of Byzantium was a huge international army that mobilized because of Glory and the Monks cast an incredibly complicated spell which was a huge project as a defensive maneuver against Glory. The Watchers Council was able to research and give the whole skinny on Glory without ever meeting the goddess of home perms herself. Apparently, a species of creatures serve Glory and she draws worshipers from demons like the Doc who you wouldn't expect.

IMO, it's impossible that these three ancient organizations do what they did as well as any number of worshipers and servants who were part of the Religion on Glory without leaving a pretty big paper trail about Glory. Glory was definitely written about.



For other personal canon given the seeming age and legacy of the Monks and the Knights and the fact that the religion around her seemed older than Scientology, I find it impossible to believe that no one heard of Glory until just twenty years ago. Willow, Buffy and the Angel's gang may act like they're the only people to have traveled to other dimensions and back to earth but I don't believe that's true either. Someone fed General Gregor the story about the triumverate of hellgods and how Glory was the worst and blah blah blah. How else did he get the information- a personal candid interview with Glory?

There have to have been other people that travel to other dimensions or know demons that traveled to other dimensions who have written about those experiences Marco Polo-style. IMO, that's how General Grego knew about the Legend of the Clique of Hell-Goddess and How Glory was Like Regina George and YOU CAN'T SIT WITH US.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvz8d8Ftmy1qa2ijmo1_500.gif

So, I think it's pretty much definite that Glory's legends and modes of worship were codified- for the Knights, the Monks, the Council and likely her worshipers like Doc. And that's knowing what we know- that Glory was in another dimension until the last twenty years.

Looking at Tara's comments from the POV of what the Scoobies knew in Shadow, I'm still puzzled by the logic in assuming that a very showy, flashy woman is so powerful and strong that she unnerves Buffy who the Scoobies have no reason to believe hasn't been on earth the whole time is too....old to have been written about. Like Tara is saying that because Glory has been here since before the Stone Age, she can't have been written about. The stupidity of that (and Willow and Giles acting like it's a good point) is just overwhelming.

Glory probably didn't wear pink on a Wednesday.

Good point, never considered this. Tara's theory is more likely to be true if Glory had lived and died in an era pre-dating the written word. But even if she had, she's such a dramatic show-off I'd imagine there would be oral legends passed down from generation to generation until somebody got hip with the written word and decided to scribble about Glory on some cave wall or parchment.

But Glory never did die before the written word, so of course she'd be written about especially as she grows more powerful. So I'd imagine from the 90s, somebody would start to take notice of her, if the monks or some other power hadn't been keeping track of Ben since his birth. Glory exists and kicks plenty of arse up til 2001, we pretty much had the written word down by then, and then some.

MikeB
14-05-13, 05:16 AM
All caught up


Jack Shaftoe


Maybe Spike cast a spell to trap the Master in Sunnydale or something? For the Wishverse, something like Wolfram and Hart could have possibly done something like that. Anyway, the Wishverse is simply something Anya created and it very likely has about no basis in what the ‘reality’ would be like.


Which is exactly why it makes no sense that people are actually living in Sunnydale. No way people wouldn't notice all the weird stuff in a week, let alone years. Maybe the Hellmouth, or the Seed , or the PTB, or whatever makes people forget stuff or whatever. The US Government could be covering stuff up. Obviously, something like the Mayor Snake would have otherwise been known about not only in Sunnydale, but also across the world.


I didn't know Buffy had the magical power of vastly improving people in every respect by merely befriending them. Um, that’s a major point of BtVS. The only reason Xander was able to do things like date Cordy and date Anya is because he was with Buffy. The only reason Xander became so successful is because Anya pushed him so much. The only reason Willow gained the confidence to date Oz and Tara is because of Buffy. The only reason Willow became a witch is because of Buffy. The only reason Angel ‘became someone, someone to be counted’ is because of Buffy. The only reason Spike eventually became a force for good is – aside from his helping to save the world in “Becoming Part II” (2.22) – because of Buffy.


It would be very silly to discount Willwo and Xander's personal development and rely on basically ten minutes of footage from the first episode just because you want to "prove" that your favourite characters are better than somebody else's. Huh? I’m not sure what this refers to, but I think I was addressing KingOfCretins saying something like Vampire Xander and Willow were more formidable than Spike and Drusilla.


Not every vampire can be a powerful spell caster like say Spike, true. That is actually true. :)

Jack Shaftoe
14-05-13, 04:33 PM
Um, that’s a major point of BtVS. The only reason Xander was able to do things like date Cordy and date Anya is because he was with Buffy.

No, it's not the "only reason" at all. By refusing to give Xander credit you are also making Cordelia and Anya look kind of pathetic, making it sound as if they would date any doofus who hangs around with Buffy. Buffy doesn't have any "magical powers" of the sort, the whole point is those people have those qualities, they just need the right circumstances and a bit of support from her to show them. Buffy having some influence in the matter is not the same as her being "the only reason", you know.

KingofCretins
14-05-13, 04:45 PM
By the by, I'm pretty sure all I said was that VampXander/VampWillow were a) parallel to Spike and Dru, and b) a sort of gender reversed version of Darla and Luke. And that I think VampXander would probably have been more dangerous unleashed in the real world than VampWillow was.

MikeB
11-06-13, 05:17 AM
Jack Shaftoe

* My quote: Um, that’s a major point of BtVS. The only reason Xander was able to do things like date Cordy and date Anya is because he was with Buffy.

Okay, chiefly would have been better word choice; but it is about certain had Xander not associated with Buffy, he wouldn’t have been able to date either of those two.



KingofCretins


By the by, I'm pretty sure all I said was that VampXander/VampWillow were a) parallel to Spike and Dru, http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=656645&postcount=88 You said, “Frankly, if you could have gotten the pair -- VampXander and VampWillow -- you'd have had a scarier big bad duo than Spike and Dru.”

First off, we already saw the pair in the Wishverse. Spike and Drusilla’s ‘Big Bad’ness is because of their ability to kill Slayers, Spike’s ability to do things like get the Judge together, find the Gem of Amarra, etc., Drusilla’s magical abilities, and Dru’s ability to manipulate people.

VampireWillow’s power simply came from her strength and sadism. VampireXander’s power sems to simply come from being with VampireWillow.

Had both VampireXander and VampireWillow shown up in “Doppelgangland” (3.16), Buffy would have still beaten Willow and someone like Angel would have beaten VampireWillow.


and b) a sort of gender reversed version of Darla and Luke. This can’t be reconciled with your thinking VampireXander is more dangerous than VampireWillow. Luke was clearly the more powerful and formidable one. Darla’s power mostly only came from whatever influence she had with the Master, Angel, Drusilla, and Spike. In the Wishverse world, probably VampireXander’s influence only stretch so far as to how he could possibly influence VampireWillow and maybe the Master.


And that I think VampXander would probably have been more dangerous unleashed in the real world than VampWillow was. VampireWillow was clearly the more – probably much more – powerful of the two of them, the far more dangerous – VampireXander was pretty much simply portrayed as her boy toy – of the two of them, etc.

MikeB
20-09-18, 11:15 AM
All caught up.

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




I haven't posted in this thread since BtVS S8 it seems.


I maintain that post-Season 9 cannot be canon. I consider that that is not my "personal canon".

Here are my considerations: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?20158-Do-you-consider-Season-10-canon

http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?20146-Stuff-in-Season-10-(and-post-BtVS-8-39)-that-doesn%92t-make-sense



* My personal canon is that Willow kept the Seedling inside her and Buffy became immortal.

Puppet
12-11-18, 12:39 AM
As much as I enjoy stories that depict how events would change in the past when Dawn was around, I admittedly am absolutely in love with this headcanon from the very first post in this thread, by vampmogs

- Dawn generally feels neglected and ignored by the gang, especially in S5, and my personal canon has always been that she feels like she hasn't affected anything because she literally hasn't. The writers always made it so that the monks changed as little about the past 4 seasons as possible so I love the idea that Dawn was inserted into the past 4 years without playing a major role in anything that happened. It explains why Dawn feels so ignored because in her memories she really wasn't significant in anybody's life and it also explains why straight after the spell in Real Me Dawn starts bugging Buffy immensely, as if because Buffy intuitively feels something is wrong because whilst she has memories of Dawn it's the first time Dawn is actually affecting the narrative in anyway.

I have a few of my own;

- Drusilla's ability to effectively use thrall is directly connected to her time as a human seer, which leads me to the head-canon that The Master (or Heinrich Nest) was also a seer of some kind when he was human, thus explaining his own thrall.

- Dawn/The Key was made out of the Slayer line, her dark hair and taller-than-Buffy stature being because she was made from Buffy and Faith.

I'm sure I have more, but I can't think of them right now.

vampmogs
12-11-18, 01:45 AM
As much as I enjoy stories that depict how events would change in the past when Dawn was around, I admittedly am absolutely in love with this headcanon from the very first post in this thread, by vampmogs

- Dawn generally feels neglected and ignored by the gang, especially in S5, and my personal canon has always been that she feels like she hasn't affected anything because she literally hasn't. The writers always made it so that the monks changed as little about the past 4 seasons as possible so I love the idea that Dawn was inserted into the past 4 years without playing a major role in anything that happened. It explains why Dawn feels so ignored because in her memories she really wasn't significant in anybody's life and it also explains why straight after the spell in Real Me Dawn starts bugging Buffy immensely, as if because Buffy intuitively feels something is wrong because whilst she has memories of Dawn it's the first time Dawn is actually affecting the narrative in anyway.

Thanks :) And welcome to the forum :wave:

Admittedly, that personal canon is partly to preserve my love for the show. The idea that Dawn's insertion into the series actually did fundamentally alter the past would essentially mean that from Season 5 onwards we're watching complete strangers in an AU and that doesn't appeal to me at all. But I honestly think it works with the text.


- Dawn/The Key was made out of the Slayer line, her dark hair and taller-than-Buffy stature being because she was made from Buffy and Faith.

I've read a lot of theories over the years that Dawn is an amalgamation of Buffy/Faith or that the reason dream!Faith repeatedly foretells Dawn's arrival is because the monks toyed with the idea of sending her to Faith (the active Slayer) instead. There's definitely something weird going on that Faith repeatedly references Dawn :)

I also love your fan about Drusilla & The Master. I've always wished the show further explored why some vampires have different abilities. Like you, I always assumed that Drusilla's thrall was an extension of her seer powers she had pre-vampire. I'd always gathered The Master had thrall because of his age but what a great idea that it could simply suggest that he too was a seer in his human life!

TriBel
12-11-18, 08:23 AM
Vampmogs:
I've read a lot of theories over the years that Dawn is an amalgamation of Buffy/Faith or that the reason dream!Faith repeatedly foretells Dawn's arrival is because the monks toyed with the idea of sending her to Faith (the active Slayer) instead. There's definitely something weird going on that Faith repeatedly references Dawn

I don't think it need be a "head canon" or personal theory. It's underpinned by the multiple signification of the word "sister" as something that is in excess of blood/biology - most clearly shown in the term "sisterhood". In this sense it relates more to a shared history (which is what Faith/Buffy have in the Slayer line). It's a concern of the text - I don't think it's any coincidence that "sister" is a key word in S12. It all hangs together. Thanks for that. :D

bespangled
13-11-18, 06:53 AM
I just thought of another one! I've always pretty much assumed that Faith was been sexually abused as a child. It has never been confirmed but she shows all the signs :(

It's a fact, not a theory. Faith is 17 when she comes to Buffy. Later she tells Spike about all the whack fantasies men have. There's no way she met these men in prison so this all happened before she came to Sunnydale. When grown men sleep with underage girls it is sexual abuse. It doesn't have to be a relative.

My head canon is that Faith matured early - physically. I was built like that when I was 12 - and there were a lot of men interested in me way before I was ready. We know her mother was an alcoholic and her father was absent. We know she dropped out of high school. I imagine Faith discovered that the one thing she could trade for validation and survival was her body. I doubt she was actually a hooker - but she also didn't have boyfriends. And any grown man who slept with her and then paid her off in some way was preying on an abused and neglected child.

She did pick up a watcher eventually, but it doesn't seem she had a watcher influence for long. Given what Giles thought when he met Buffy, I can imagine what her watcher thought when she saw Faith. She was a woman, and I think that Faith moved in with her until she was killed. That watcher would have been the only sanity in her life. I am really glad the council didn't send a man.

I just wish there had been some man in her life who loved her and didn't use her sexually - not just the mayor who used her as an attack dog but treated her like a doting father.

- - - Updated - - -

I absolutely love this canon of @MikeB - after careful historical research. http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19690-If-William-Pratt-(Spike)-was-from-the-family-of-the-Marquess-of-Camden

It has evidence that William Pratt and Cecily Underwood were real. What I love is the thesis that William Pratt was a member of the Ton - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton_%28le_bon_ton%29

I've always believed that William was a minor aristocrat. My head canon is that his father was rich and American, and his mother was dirt poor and from an old titled family. He married her for the ties to the aristocracy. Her family married her to him so that they had the money to survive. That would explain why William seem to be a pretty wealthy man but also socially undesirable.

He has a lovely large house, servants, a carriage, and a crap ton of brick brack and whatnots. He's the doting Victorian son who supports his mother and treasures her. Her physician is Dr. Gull - Queen Victoria's physician. But at the party, the others mock and belittle him - that was pure snobbery. If his father was American (dead), then he was nouveau riche and only had connection on the distaff. He didn't even have the family name. Given William's pretension he was an easy target.

I also think he had sisters who died, probably from consumption. He and his mother seem like the last two members of a larger family. Younger sisters would explain why a vampire who was known for killing kids with his crazycakes sire was a great big brother to Dawn. Their relationship was so effortless and open.

Sosa lola
13-11-18, 07:50 AM
I forgot if I had posted before. I didn't read from beginning of the thread. My headcanons are:

1) Buffy was never in an asylum. The poison made her confuse reality with fantasy. Because of the shifting, the memories of the other reality where her parents put her there mingled with the actual truth. The truth was that Buffy never told her parents about vampires or being a Slayer.

2) Xander's skateboard was a present from Jesse and Xander never used it again after his death.

3) There's a whole background story about the relationship between Xander and Giles where Xander adores and admires Giles but the latter doesn't notice and it isn't something he cares about.

4) Xander returns Spike's lighter in the summer between S5 and S6, finds Spike in a mess of drunken sobs, they share a drink together, and then go for a petrol in honor of Buffy's name.

HardlyThere
13-11-18, 11:03 AM
My own explanation:

Dawn/The Key was sent to Buffy because it was prophecized. Buffy since S1 was an outlier and she became the lamb to get rid of Glory. It all went according to plan, that's why The First never bothered in S2-S5. Everyone played their part, including the Monks. After that, Willow screwed up everything with the resurrection spell, allowing it to attack.

Stoney
13-11-18, 11:13 AM
1) Buffy was never in an asylum. The poison made her confuse reality with fantasy. Because of the shifting, the memories of the other reality where her parents put her there mingled with the actual truth. The truth was that Buffy never told her parents about vampires or being a Slayer.

That was what I was mooting on the rewatch thread after seeing the episode again too. I'm not convinced that her memory of being put in the asylum when she was first called isn't just a bleed of the vision/effect of the poison. It can still be working to layer the trauma she is dealing with whilst having the visions very legitimately because she is feeling it I think, but it gets rid of the poor retcon clashes that the idea Joyce already knew about any of this create. I prefer it to accepting those as well. :biggrin1:

EDIT: An alternative suggestion I've read once, I can't remember if I or someone else mentioned it on here before, was that the monks spell gave Buffy the false history of being in an asylum. I can reconcile that with the intended purpose being to make Buffy more inclined to be protective of Dawn's identity from being found out and think that it is another possibility. But this doesn't work as well with vampmogs' suggestion that the spell changed as little as possible and that works so brilliantly with how Dawn/Buffy are both responding when she first arrives. So because I love that notion of why Dawn feels she's always been ignored alongside Buffy feeling like her sister is suddenly more irritating, I tend to lean towards believing the asylum memory is a bleed from the NA visions or an effect of the poison rather than this option just because it works better with that. But both are preferable to the retcon to me. :nod:

Vague that up for me
24-11-18, 04:12 AM
So 2 theorys in this thread I have fallen in love with are the original post about the key spell effecting as little as possible. That matches up perfectly as many have said and I will be adopting this into my own personal head cannon.



2) Xander's skateboard was a present from Jesse and Xander never used it again after his death.


This is the seccond and I LOVE it! I have always had a strange fascination with Xanders single use skateboard and this explanation for its disappearance brings me great joy.

The bit of head cannon I would add is about Joyce and Hank. I think they maried and had Buffy quite young and not because they wanted a kid but because that was what you did after school in those days.

I feel like Joyce was trapped in an unhappy marriage with Hank for 15+ years because she didn't feel she could leave him as was often the case in those days.

I picture her going to college for an art history degree but dropping out due to pressure from both Hank and her family to settle down and have kids. I also imagine her finishing her degree near the end of her relationship with Hank as she is building the strength to leave him and start a life where she can make what she wants a priority.

The move to Sunnydale was not just about getting Buffy out of trouble but also starting a new life for Joyce.

This would explain why Joyce is so absent in the early seasons. If the gallery was the first thing she had that was her own it would make sense that she threw herself into it a little more than you would expect with what she thought was a trouble making teenager at home.

Priceless
24-11-18, 08:07 AM
The bit of head cannon I would add is about Joyce and Hank. I think they maried and had Buffy quite young and not because they wanted a kid but because that was what you did after school in those days.

I feel like Joyce was trapped in an unhappy marriage with Hank for 15+ years because she didn't feel she could leave him as was often the case in those days.

I picture her going to college for an art history degree but dropping out due to pressure from both Hank and her family to settle down and have kids. I also imagine her finishing her degree near the end of her relationship with Hank as she is building the strength to leave him and start a life where she can make what she wants a priority.

The move to Sunnydale was not just about getting Buffy out of trouble but also starting a new life for Joyce.

This would explain why Joyce is so absent in the early seasons. If the gallery was the first thing she had that was her own it would make sense that she threw herself into it a little more than you would expect with what she thought was a trouble making teenager at home.

I really like this. I get annoyed when people simply criticise Joyce for being absent, without ever thinking why that would be and trying to see things from her pov.

Sosa lola
24-11-18, 08:47 AM
Joyce was a single parent with a teenage daughter at this point. Buffy was old enough to take care of herself in many aspects. When needed to be, Joyce actually showed up at parents night (School Hard) she grounds Buffy when she's misbehaving (Bad Eggs) (especially considering how she burned down a gym at her old school and the sneaking out every night and so on) and she wants to be there to watch Buffy's school activities (The Puppet Show). She usually drives Buffy to school. She reads books on how to parent teens. She was more present in Buffy's life than Xander and Willow's parents were in their kids' lives.

It doesn't mean Joyce doesn't screw up, but she's not as awful as fans make her out to be. We're seeing her through Buffy's very limited and teen angst POV. I'm so sure if the show is following Joyce's life, we'd resent Buffy's rebellious irresponsible guts. :lol:

ghoststar
24-11-18, 08:29 PM
I don't want to cross debate people's personal canon, but I've always thought that Faith is the way she is because it's the way she is. I'm always disinclined for the story to reach for abuse/trauma tropes, as they are so thoroughly worn out.

I don't know if I have a lot of personal canon, or maybe I just can't think of it. I was one of the first on the bandwagon that it was a Slayer that took out Angel's spies on the Decoy and that Andrew's escort for the evening were Slayers.

I've always thought that neglect played a bigger role in Faith's issues than direct abuse. It's certainly possible that she was sexually abused and that that informed her troubled perspective on sex, but sex isn't her biggest problem, honesty and responsibility are. I believe that kids mostly learn those things from trial and error, in an environment where there are people whom they care about, because that's the consequence that really hits you where you live. Faith viewed her mother as a useless drunk, never mentioned her father, and didn't have enough reason to stick around her high school (assuming that she just dropped out, rather than fleeing in terror when Akistos killed her Watcher), so she probably wasn't responsible to anyone that she respected and loved. I wouldn't be surprised if she'd been molested, or even if the fact that no one protected her from it makes her more bitter, but I don't think there's a direct line between sexual abuse and her worse mistakes.

- - - Updated - - -

Hm, personal headcanons...

1. I once wrote an embarrassingly long Tumblr post about my theory that the Shadow Men are from another dimension and deputized locals to be the first Watchers. Based on "The Gift," our dimension is a weak point in the universe, so they'd have a reason to shore up its defenses. It'd explain why they appear to be using at least Iron Age technology and wear vast swathes of dyed fabric, compared to the First Slayer, who's dressed in dirty rags and has a none-too-pristine knife to fight with.

2. Dawn's whininess is a feature, not a bug, at least from the monks' perspective. If you make the Key to be protected, you want it to squeal when it needs protection.

3. The Master's favorite may have been Darla, but he was sleeping with Luke. I mean... did you see that anointing scene? Ho yay off the charts.

KingofCretins
24-11-18, 09:56 PM
4) Xander returns Spike's lighter in the summer between S5 and S6, finds Spike in a mess of drunken sobs, they share a drink together, and then go for a petrol in honor of Buffy's name.

One of these times I need to reengage with the fic idea I had to tell you what really went down that summer.

Vague that up for me
25-11-18, 04:27 PM
I love the Joyce love here!!! I hear so many people talk about how she was a bad mom in the first two seasons kt is refreshing to hear others say good things about early Joyce.

Sosa lola
26-11-18, 04:37 AM
One of these times I need to reengage with the fic idea I had to tell you what really went down that summer.

Oh, please, reengage! :D I can't get enough of Xander returning Spike's lighter during the Buffy-less summer!

HowiMetdaSlayer
26-11-18, 05:41 PM
Dunno bout canon, but I'd like to think that Willow/Tara returned everyone's real memories between S5 & S6.

Dipstick
26-11-18, 06:03 PM
Ha, I have head-canon that I'm torn on. When I want to think happy thoughts, I imagine that Giles killing Ben/Glory also resulted in all of the brain-suck victims getting back their sanity. When I'm bleak and I want to think in terms of Glory making a permanent horrible mark on the world, I imagine that every brainsuck victim, besides Tara, was left insane, muttering stuff about the Key even thought there was no longer any point to it even in a crazy way.