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Stoney
12-06-12, 10:20 AM
This is a relationship that I have often found contradictory and always complicated so I just wanted to open a general discussion. A lot of the variation can be justified by the length of time these guys have known each other as their dynamic will have varied at different points of their chronology.

In their early years there are a few general contributions to their relationship...

Spike did not expect to be with anyone but Dru when he was sired, he didn't expect Angel/Darla so he had to fit in with the family dynamics. This was something that Angel, from what we see, 'educated' him on. We saw him make the point of how their family unit worked by sleeping with Dru in response to Spike declaring she was his destiny. So from the start there was competitiveness and resentment.
Angel tried to treat Spike like an errant child and found his tendency to be brash and impulsive a frustration.
The Scourge travelled and lived together for around 20 years before Angel lost his soul. From School Hard we see that Spike may well have thought of Angel as a guide and example to follow (his yoda!).
Spike fixated on the challenge of defeating slayers which could have been in part to prove himself to Angel, to best Angel and win Dru.


How much of this original dynamic is then pushed and pulled apart to fit the individual characters as they currently want them presented to be is debatable. Angel seems to stay pretty stable in his own character. How he reacts to Spike does vary though. At first when Spike appears in School Hard he seems to be taking him seriously and talking about him as a real threat. In the later BtVS seasons he is pretty dismissive and never openly sees Spike as competition for Buffy's affections. He is incredulous when speaking to Buffy in Chosen and he belittles their relationship openly in A5, though how much of this is due to character servicing felt necessary for his show (missing out the ILY in flash backs for example) who knows. I think there is a degree of him just putting Spike down and raising his insecurities to keep him away from Buffy in play. Angel doesn't react differently to souled Spike and shows no surprise that souled Spike isn't a greatly different character to unsouled Spike and again plays their dynamic as devaluing him by not mentioning his soul or his sacrifice to the fang gang.

After the initial dynamics, we have three main metamorphoses of Spike's character that feeds in to their relationship. The first is to develop the Spike character in BtVS and keep him in the show. He is taken a little less seriously by Angel post The Gem of Amara. Being chipped gives the writers the opportunity to create a large side step in Spike's characterisation, opening up another side to him, and Angel doesn't take him seriously anymore. The second comes when Spike joins AtS and the character is downplayed from what he was at the end of BtVS, becoming more childish around Angel which services this dynamic of bickering siblings. Spike is held to almost have a grudging respect for Angel though I personally feel that this development is there solely for the reason that it is Angel's show! Particularly as the third comes in the comics where we see a Spike who is more confident and pretty contemptuous of Angel's role in Twilight with the interesting comment about finally choosing sides which he makes to Angel in the Hellmouth.

Personally I like the fact that they don't try to make the two 'chums' despite the longevity of their history and their souled statūs. I prefer them to meet on neutral ground in BtVS as their dynamic doesn't become warped to service Angel's story. I have always been very outspoken in my wish that Spike never goes into Angel's title again for this reason, as I think they downplay his character and reduce his intelligence to service Angel. Generally, on balance, I personally think that it is fair to say that Spike behaves as if Angel is family which he cares for by default accordingly but that he doesn't personally like him. Likewise, Angel treats Spike as family, like an errant child or an annoying brother, but has little respect for him.

TimeTravellingBunny
12-06-12, 12:04 PM
This is a relationship that I have often found contradictory and always complicated so I just wanted to open a general discussion. A lot of the variation can be justified by the length of time these guys have known each other as their dynamic will have varied at different points of their chronology.

In their early years there are a few general contributions to their relationship...

Spike did not expect to be with anyone but Dru when he was sired, he didn't expect Angel/Darla so he had to fit in with the family dynamics. This was something that Angel, from what we see, 'educated' him on. We saw him make the point of how their family unit worked by sleeping with Dru in response to Spike declaring she was his destiny. So from the start there was competitiveness and resentment.
Angel tried to treat Spike like an errant child and found his tendency to be brash and impulsive a frustration.
The Scourge travelled and lived together for around 20 years before Angel lost his soul. From School Hard we see that Spike may well have thought of Angel as a guide and example to follow (his yoda!).
Spike fixated on the challenge of defeating slayers which could have been in part to prove himself to Angel, to best Angel and win Dru.


How much of this original dynamic is then pushed and pulled apart to fit the individual characters as they currently want them presented to be is debatable. Angel seems to stay pretty stable in his own character. How he reacts to Spike does vary though. At first when Spike appears in School Hard he seems to be taking him seriously and talking about him as a real threat. In the later BtVS seasons he is pretty dismissive and never openly sees Spike as competition for Buffy's affections. He is incredulous when speaking to Buffy in Chosen and he belittles their relationship openly in A5, though how much of this is due to character servicing felt necessary for his show (missing out the ILY in flash backs for example) who knows. I think there is a degree of him just putting Spike down and raising his insecurities to keep him away from Buffy in play. Angel doesn't react differently to souled Spike and shows no surprise that souled Spike isn't a greatly different character to unsouled Spike and again plays their dynamic as devaluing him by not mentioning his soul or his sacrifice to the fang gang.

I'm surprised by how many people just see their dynamic in S5 "Angel doesn't respect Spike", which is just the surface of it (and would be pretty pointless, why would Spike even be in AtS, to show that Angel is an arrogant dick?). I thought it was obvious that Angel's contempt for Spike is fake, a coping mechanism that came from being jealous and threatened by Spike. Beneath it, Angel is actually afraid that Spike is better, more heroic and more deserving than he is - as we see in Soul Purpose when we get a peak into Angel's mind - while he himself has lost his purpose, his heroism and his moral high ground. Even Buffy is just that, a part of Angel's identity as a hero/champion, and the idea that she may love another vampire, who's died as sacrificing hero, and who, as Spike points out at the end of Destiny, fought for his soul, is unbearable to Angel, who feels he's been replaced and bested in his old roles. (That's also the best explanation for Angel's renewed obsession with Buffy. He needs the Slayer's love as the confirmation of his hero role, again, because he doesn't believe in himself in the way he did while working for AI.)

There's a lot of ego in that - and sure he's threatened partly because "I know how charming Spike can be" (Angel, HellBound) but there's also the fact that Angel has lost his faith (heh) in redemption, he's lost his way and feels empty, and Spike represents the redemption and the ability of a monster to overcome its evil and strive successfully for goodness and heroism - something that Angel feels he's failed to do, even with a soul. Which is why Angel tries to spread his own negativity to Spike and to deny the possibility of redemption, claiming that they are both going to hell.

FRED
It's about doing what's right. Remember?
ANGEL
Your department. Your call. Just don't be disappointed if it doesn't work. Some people can't be saved.

Who is he really talking about?


ANGEL
I never escaped from hell. All I got was a short reprieve. Not even sure how I managed that.
SPIKE
Oh, put your martyr away, Mahatma. Fred told me all about your great, shining prophecy. Pile up all your good deeds and get the big brass ring handed to you like everything else.
ANGEL
Except for one small catch. The prophecy's a bunch of bull. They all are. Nothing's written in stone or fated to happen, Spike. You save the world, you end up running an evil law firm.
SPIKE
Or playin' Casper with one foot in the fryer.
ANGEL
You think any of it matters? The things we did? The lives we destroyed. That's all that's ever gonna count. So, yeah, surprise. You're going to hell. We both are.

(Hellbound)


And that's why his relationship with Spike gets much better once Angel gets over his issues and starts believing in his own ability to do something heroic rather than just be an puppet of W&H who's empty inside.

As for servicing Angel's story, well, yes, in the sense that Spike's character was used to emphasize Angel's insecurities about himself and his feeling of having lost his identity. Yes, Spike comes off as more childish and annoying - but Angel is even more so*; it's just that Spike is quickly brought down to his level when he's around him, and, angry because of the lack of appreciation he sees around him, starts the pissing contests with Angel. It's not pretty to see the two of them making the absent Buffy into just another trophy in their contest - Buffy, Shanshu, the hero/champion status, the Cup of Mountain Dew, is there any difference anymore. Angel starts it, but he quickly sucks Spike in. Those two really bring the worst in each other.


ANGEL
Something I gave to Buffy before—
SPIKE
Buffy! Is she—
ANGEL
She's OK.
SPIKE
Where—where is she?
ANGEL
Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE
Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL
That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE
You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL
She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE
Says you. You got no idea what we had.
ANGEL
You never had her.
SPIKE
(in Angel's face)
More than you, you poncy—

That about sums it up. The moment they start their pissing contest, Buffy becomes a prized possession. It's particularly ironic how Angel is all, Buffy's nobody's possession, and then in the very next sentence he treats her just like that - and turns Spike's "You don't know what we had" (a relationship) to "You never had her" (possession). It doesn't take Spike a lot to forget what he and Buffy had, apparently, since he goes from this to rubbing it into Angel's face in Destiny how many times he had sex with Buffy as a way to piss him off and proceeds to act in the latter part of the season like he didn't really have all that much together.

Still, I don't think Spike's characterization is that off in the early season 5, and I don't think he comes off as stupid. It's just that, around Angel, you get to see the uglier sides of both their characters. Some of the early episodes of AtS season 5 are great for Spike - Destiny in particular; I like Hellbound and Damage - even though there a couple of things that annoy me, like playing the "is Spike evil" card (when we already know what the result would be) in Hellbound, but that's not about Spike's characterization itself; and particularly by the way they made it look like Spike did everything before for women and that now he needed to prove he can do heroic things for other reasons. (So, what, he chose to die just to impress Buffy?!) It's Lindsey who says it to manipulate Spike, and Spike is still full of insecurities so he lets it get to him, just like he lets Angel's crap get to him. It's sad that Angel always manages to ruin Spike's self-esteem - as we see in Destiny, he was always somewhat threatened by him, even while feeling a strange kind of appeal/bond to him - it seems that, at first, William's idealism and a certain purity rubbed him the wrong way, so he needed to change him. Spike correctly identified this in Destiny when he told Angel that he made him into a monster to make him more like himself, though Angel is also right that Spike always had it in him and Angel just brought it out.

I actually start really disliking the use of Spike from the moment when he and Angel start getting along better. I think he should have said his goodbyes with Angel, left the show and, logically, went to see Buffy. But they had to keep Spike on the show, and SMG wasn't going to guest star, so they had Spike acting like a dick by deciding to not let Buffy know he was alive (which one could explain by insecurities, etc. but it's still awful) and then declaring he needs to stay in LA because it's what he wants, and then they make it look like this is some great progression for his character.
And although I love Damage, I also hate when some fans claim it's the first time Spike showed remorse over his victims. I happen to remember early season 7 and Never Leave Me.

Although it's debatable how much this is fanon - I'm sick and tired of some fans claiming that Spike got more "independent" because he wasn't "Buffy's sidekick"... by becoming Angel's sidekick? :rolling: Bros before hos? Spike used to criticize Angel and others for joining Wolfram & Hart in the first part of the season, but now he's happy to use their resources, too? Their relationship/rivalry/frenemiship was interesting and complex in episodes like Destiny, Soul Purpose and Damage, but from then on, they just become a comedic Odd Couple and Spike is just a wacky sidekick/buddy to Angel, and his character gets simplified a lot - and doesn't actually have anything substantial to do.

Then there's Why We Fight, where he's made to look really stupid in the flashbacks, and their past relationships is retconned into Angel being all leadery and idiot!Spike being subservient.

The less said about TGIQ the better; that one actually retconned them both into dopes - in their soulless evil days, no less - and made them both into complete idiots in present day. The things they say about their respective relationships with Buffy seem like they're copied from the comments of some Youtube fanvideo: "OMG Bangel is 4eva lurve! Spuffy was all sex, yuck!" - "Whateva, Spuffy was hawt!" :thud: What the heck happened to SDK and Drew Goddard to drop to that level of writing, I dunno. While Angel turned into a teenage Bangel shipper, Spike apparently forgot that season 7 happened, together with the writers, which is strange since Goddard actually worked on S7.

Basically, with a couple of exceptions (Spike getting to read his poetry in NFA - trust Joss to come up with meaningful characterization for Spike), Spike's presence on the show was completely pointless starting from Damage onwards.


* I'm not sure in which sense you meant it, but - Spike serviced the story not by making Angel look better, but by making him look worse. Lots of Spike fans complain that Spike was portrayed as annoying, childish etc. - compared to S7. But as someone who watched AtS all through, and who liked Angel as a character, too - in seasons 2-4 he was often dark and antiheroic, but I still liked him/felt for him, while in AtS season 5 I found him really annoying (even though I got why he was like that, emotionally(, he crossed the line into really petty, selfish and pathetic. His behavior to Spike was a big part of that, like the way he hid the facts about Spike's soul and his sacrifice from his friends, or the way he didn't want to help Fred to recorporalize Spike. It took me about half a season to start liking him again in episodes like Smile Time.

Stoney
12-06-12, 06:17 PM
I'm surprised by how many people just see their dynamic in S5 "Angel doesn't respect Spike", which is just the surface of it...

It definitely isn't their sole dynamic but I think it is an important underlying one that fuels a lot of Angel's side of things. It most definitely isn't the only thing going on but I would say it is interwoven through most aspects of Angel's side as it adds to his other responses. He is definitely threatened by Spike choosing the heroic path and, despite being a soulless vamp, choosing to fight for a soul which Angel has to be cursed with to have. If he respected him at all he would not have hidden this and his subsequent sacrifice from everyone else.


(and would be pretty pointless, why would Spike even be in AtS, to show that Angel is an arrogant dick?)

Spike was definitely used in part to show that Angel is an arrogant dick. That was part of what got him into the mess he ended up in with W&H.


I thought it was obvious that Angel's contempt for Spike is fake, a coping mechanism that came from being jealous and threatened by Spike. Beneath it, Angel is actually afraid that Spike is better, more heroic and more deserving than he is - as we see in Soul Purpose when we get a peak into Angel's mind - while he himself has lost his purpose, his heroism and his moral high ground. Even Buffy is just that, a part of Angel's identity as a hero/champion, and the idea that she may love another vampire, who's died as sacrificing hero, and who, as Spike points out at the end of Destiny, fought for his soul, is unbearable to Angel, who feels he's been replaced and bested in his old roles.

Agreed. I love these aspects of Angel, they are part of what makes him interesting. Angel's lack of respect for Spike helps him revel in his contempt allows his jealousy to rage and enables his feelings of inferiority lead him to want to dismiss Spike and pull him down all the time rather than treat him even fairly.


(That's also the best explanation for Angel's renewed obsession with Buffy. He needs the Slayer's love as the confirmation of his hero role, again, because he doesn't believe in himself in the way he did while working for AI.)

Interesting point. Do you mean in A5 only or through to S8?


There's a lot of ego in that - and sure he's threatened partly because "I know how charming Spike can be" (Angel, HellBound) but there's also the fact that Angel has lost his faith (heh) in redemption, he's lost his way and feels empty, and Spike represents the redemption and the ability of a monster to overcome its evil and strive successfully for goodness and heroism - something that Angel feels he's failed to do, even with a soul. Which is why Angel tries to spread his own negativity to Spike and to deny the possibility of redemption, claiming that they are both going to hell.

Exactly and it is this sort of behaviour that shows he doesn't respect Spike or what he has done/achieved. I am not labouring the respect part as if that is the be all and end all as I completely agree with you about all these other major emotions leading Angel but the lack of respect leads how he then treats Spike in response to his other emotions.


And that's why his relationship with Spike gets much better once Angel gets over his issues and starts believing in his own ability to do something heroic rather than just be an puppet of W&H who's empty inside.

In what way do you think it gets better. Angel treating him like a warring sibling and believing in himself more doesn't mean he is particularly treating Spike any better just that he is in a better mood with himself.


As for servicing Angel's story, well, yes, in the sense that Spike's character was used to emphasize Angel's insecurities about himself and his feeling of having lost his identity. Yes, Spike comes off as more childish and annoying - but Angel is even more so; it's just that Spike is quickly brought down to his level when he's around him, and, angry because of the lack of appreciation he sees around him, starts the pissing contests with Angel. It's not pretty to see the two of them making the absent Buffy into just another trophy in their contest - Buffy, Shanshu, the hero/champion status, the Cup of Mountain Dew, is there any difference anymore. Angel starts it, but he quickly sucks Spike in. Those two really bring the worst in each other.

These are all really good points and the example of how quickly he descends into childish behaviour on his emergence from the amulet is a great one. I suppose part of me just dislikes watching my favourite character be another character's plot butt monkey. But Spike is a secondary/support character so it is going to happen to a degree. But it is this...


It doesn't take Spike a lot to forget what he and Buffy had, apparently, since he goes from this to rubbing it into Angel's face in Destiny how many times he had sex with Buffy as a way to piss him off and proceeds to act in the latter part of the season like he didn't really have all that much together.

...in particular that really annoys me as it devalues his story in S7 presumably because it wouldn't suit the Angel audience to place credence in it and because they don't want him to leave to go to Buffy which it would have been fair to assume is what he would have done. Sure we can put it down, as you say, to insecurities and everything else but this character development happened to suit Angel's series, not to suit Spike's story = plot butt monkey.


Some of the early episodes of AtS season 5 are great for Spike - Destiny in particular; I like Hellbound and Damage - even though there a couple of things that annoy me, like playing the "is Spike evil" card (when we already know what the result would be)

Agreed and yes the 'evil' thing was just plain stupid.


It's sad that Angel always manages to ruin Spike's self-esteem - as we see in Destiny, he was always somewhat threatened by him, even while feeling a strange kind of appeal/bond to him - it seems that, at first, William's idealism and a certain purity rubbed him the wrong way, so he needed to change him. Spike correctly identified this in Destiny when he told Angel that he made him into a monster to make him more like himself, though Angel is also right that Spike always had it in him and Angel just brought it out.

Spike seems to swing greatly between being affected by Angel and not giving a toss. I find marrying the 'yoda' aspect of Spike's Angel dynamic with all the other interactions quite difficult. Spike doesn't seem in awe of him unless they have him specifically saying he looked up to him. This is why I find the comment in Last Gleaming so interesting. Saying Angel has finally chosen a side, I think Spike is sick of Angelus becoming Angel becoming Angelus playing dirty as Angel, becoming Twilight etc etc. Spike who was able to want his soul whilst soulless I think finds Angel's flits between good and bad infuriating.


And although I love Damage, I also hate when some fans claim it's the first time Spike showed remorse over his victims. I happen to remember early season 7 and Never Leave Me.

Agreed, though I would hope he wouldn't make any ridiculous claims to remember all their names!!!!


Although it's debatable how much this is fanon - I'm sick and tired of some fans claiming that Spike got more "independent" because he wasn't "Buffy's sidekick"... by becoming Angel's sidekick? :rolling: Bros before hos? Spike used to criticize Angel and others for joining Wolfram & Hart in the first part of the season, but now he's happy to use their resources, too? Their relationship/rivalry/frenemiship was interesting and complex in episodes like Destiny, Soul Purpose and Damage, but from then on, they just become a comedic Odd Couple and Spike is just a wacky sidekick/buddy to Angel, and his character gets simplified a lot - and doesn't actually have anything substantial to do.

Then there's Why We Fight, where he's made to look really stupid in the flashbacks, and their past relationships is retconned into Angel being all leadery and idiot!Spike being subservient.

These are just examples of the character servicing that I dislike so much when Spike is around Angel. Because Angel comes to terms with himself later in the season this happens = more butt monkey.


The less said about TGIQ the better; that one actually retconned them both into dopes - in their soulless evil days, no less - and made them both into complete idiots in present day. The things they say about their respective relationships with Buffy seem like they're copied from the comments of some Youtube fanvideo: "OMG Bangel is 4eva lurve! Spuffy was all sex, yuck!" - "Whateva, Spuffy was hawt!" :thud: What the heck happened to SDK and Drew Goddard to drop to that level of writing, I dunno. While Angel turned into a teenage Bangel shipper, Spike apparently forgot that season 7 happened, together with the writers, which is strange since Goddard actually worked on S7.

BtVS S7 Spuffy can't have happened in Angel verse, that was the problem.


Basically, with a couple of exceptions (Spike getting to read his poetry in NFA - trust Joss to come up with meaningful characterization for Spike), Spike's presence on the show was completely pointless starting from Damage onwards.

In the latter half Spike seemed to serve the purpose of validating Angel and them having the whole frenemies thing. It really didn't work for me. I thought the line in the Hellmouth of Spike challenging Angel's fickle nature was incredibly telling, I just don't think he actually likes the guy. It fits well for the portrayal of them having a familial relationship.

Stoney
18-06-12, 08:35 AM
As a point of consideration I have brought across a series of posts triggered by the following post by King, which is an interesting topic for the Angel/Spike dynamic in regards to Spike's response to TwAngel...


2) Angel. Spike has used Angel as a template for a lot of things, first as a mentor in evil-ness, then as a whole slew of superlatives covering Angel's stints as hero, homewrecker, romantic rival, prophetic figure, you name it -- I'd like to know what it meant to him that Angel went so completely to pot, since it's both more interesting than Buffy's and Angel's interaction and he is much less likely to react to Angel's villain turn by having sex with him.


What did it mean to Spike that Angel went so completely to pot?... I honestly think the answer is - nothing. He wasn't surprised by it, he is irritated by Angel who has to have his soul forced on him trying to take a higher ground to him all the time. I think he feels exasperated watching Angel stepping all over the line all the time, at will, in his arrogance and yet passing whatever he currently wants to do off as the 'greater good'. I honestly think Spike doesn't like Angel, personally, and finds his attitude blisteringly irritating as it is consistently ambiguous and he only has scant levels of self awareness but purports to be superior to him.


I think this is all true. I also think it's true that Spike looks up to Angel and sees him as his mentor. The fact that it's both would be a good locus to explore Spike's complexity -- though I doubt it will happen in the mini. Or at least I hope not. I only want to see this dynamic explored by writers who get that Angel himself is a very, very mixed bag (and not a hero with a lot of bad luck).


Re: Spike v. Angel, apologies to the slashers, but I see them as brothers. And in the way of brothers, no one can irritate you more, no one can prick your insecurities more, the other one always looks more favored, and no one can inspire you to more resentment...and yet still you care. It's like that line in 'Sunscreen' about siblings: they are your best link to your past and the most likely to stick with you in the future... because the older you get the more you need someone who knew you when you were young.


No, I agree, it wouldn't be explored in the mini and because of the willingness to show him outside of a 'hero' shaped Angel image it would be unlikely to be in his title either. That restriction is why I don't want Spike in Angel's title again. I enjoyed A5 but it is not a position/dynamic I would like to see his time spent on again. I think Angel's days of being a mentor to Spike have long since passed. I think there was a degree of Spike looking for that in A5 from him but I think he saw what he could and Twilight will have knocked out any residual feeling from Spike like this. I don't think Angel's jealousy makes him able to really respect Spike and I think this attitude makes it difficult for Spike to ever look up to him because someone who devalues whatever you do by default of the fact it is you doing it can't really lead you in your own development.

Yes, there is familial bonding and bickering siblings is the dynamic I always liken it to because family you don't chose but emotions tend to be strong with them and above all else, you actually don't have to like them or particularly get on with them.


Exactly, it's the familial dynamic (granted, a vampire familial dynamic, There are strong emotions and they always mean something to you but you don't choose your family and you don't even necessarily like them (dynamics between the sire and those they sired is different since the sire does choose who to sire, and in Darla/Angel and Dru/Spike it's also choosing a life partner, at least on one side, which makes it a combination of lovers' dynamic and parent/child one; but Angel and Spike didn't choose to be family).

Stoney
18-06-12, 08:47 AM
Again, lifting form the same thread (sorry for repeats but I thought these were all interesting points and really hoped to get an Angel/Spike conversation running).



There were several times in Season 5 that I think both Angel and Spike actually seemed glad to have someone with whom they could speak unguarded about their long histories without feeling judged or alien.

This is an interesting point about Angel/Spike. As the only two souled vamps they can offer each other a level of support and understanding that they may not find elsewhere, helped by the fact that the history they may be 'dealing' with is history that they often shared. I'm not sure whether Spike will be more or less understanding though of things that Angel has done post soul. This unique dynamic could provide them with a point of reference that gains leniency in trying to see where Angel was coming from or post soul he may be more judgemental if he feels that Angel has stepped into something blatantly morally ambiguous.

sueworld
04-07-12, 10:16 AM
Thought I'd creep this in here as I feel It fits.

A truly excellent fanged four music video has been poted over here....

http://kallysten.livejournal.com/886798.html

And fenderlove talks about her love for the Caveman v Astronauts scene. Spangel at It's most daft?

http://fenderlove.livejournal.com/404396.html

Oh how I miss my big dead old show. :(

Stoney
04-07-12, 12:15 PM
http://fenderlove.livejournal.com/404396.html

Oh how I miss my big dead old show. :(

The bickering siblings dynamic in force!

MikeB
21-09-12, 05:34 AM
Angel and Spike are BFFs and their only real point of contention is that Spike fell in love with and got with Drusilla and Buffy and both Drusilla and Buffy fell in love with Spike and chose Spike above Angel.



Stoney


Angel tried to treat Spike like an errant child and found his tendency to be brash and impulsive a frustration. Not sure how long you extend this, but this was only shown in that 1900 mineshaft flashback.


The Scourge travelled and lived together for around 20 years before Angel lost his soul. 18 years.


Spike fixated on the challenge of defeating slayers which could have been in part to prove himself to Angel, to best Angel and win Dru. Angel in that 1896 Immortal incident thing was already treating Spike as an equal. And in the 1900 Boxer Rebellion thing, Spike seemed to consider that Angel could also beat a Slayer. I don’t know what you mean by “win Dru” as Spike had been having sex with Dru since before she took him back to see Angel and Darla. What happened in 1900 was that Spike and Dru left Angel and Darla.


In the later BtVS seasons [Angel] is pretty dismissive and never openly sees Spike as competition for Buffy's affections. Angel already in “In the Dark” (A 1.03) is not happy that Spike may be into Buffy. There’s no hint that before “End of Days” (7.21) Angel even knew that Spike was pursuing Buffy.


He is incredulous when speaking to Buffy in Chosen and he belittles their relationship openly in A5, In “Chosen” (7.22), Angel knew that Buffy was shooing him off so that she could go be with Spike. And throughout AtS s5, Angel fully believed that Buffy would welcome Spike back with open arms and so tried his best to keep Spike from Buffy.


Angel doesn't react differently to souled Spike and shows no surprise that souled Spike isn't a greatly different character to unsouled Spike and again plays their dynamic as devaluing him by not mentioning his soul or his sacrifice to the fang gang. Angel fully believed that Spike was the new champion of the Powers That Be. Did you forget “Soul Purpose”?


* The chip area: Really, I don’t know why you even mentioned this. There’s little to suggest that Angel even knew pre-“End of Days” (7.21) that Spike was even with the Scoobies.


I personally think that it is fair to say that Spike behaves as if Angel is family which he cares for by default accordingly but that he doesn't personally like him. Well in BtVS S2 and after, other than like in AtF (which who knows what is and isn’t canon from that), Spike seemed to consider Angel beneath him.


Likewise, Angel treats Spike as family, like an errant child or an annoying brother, but has little respect for him. Angel has a lot of respect for Spike and seems to always have had. What Angel had refused to do is consider himself beneath Spike. For example, even though Spike’s killed two Slayers and Angel relatively easily got whupped by Kendra, Angel seemed to want to believe that, relatively, he could easily beat Spike. However, post-souled Spike, Angel seemed to consider himself beneath Spike and was very insecure about his place in the world compared to Spike. In AtS s5, it took Cordelia seeming to not even know that Spike was re-ensouled and her telling Angel that, ‘Of course you’re still the champion of the Powers That Be!’ for Angel to seem to have any confidence in his champion status. Angel in BtVS S8 does a lot of stuff to try to get Buffy, and even when Buffy is still under an influence/control, Angel still believes that Buffy is shooing him off so that she could go be with Spike .



TimeTravellingBunny


That's also the best explanation for Angel's renewed obsession with Buffy. He needs the Slayer's love as the confirmation of his hero role, again, because he doesn't believe in himself in the way he did while working for AI.) You’re only referring to AtS s5, right?


Buffy becomes a prized possession. They had both treated Drusilla like this. The point was that they both considered each other the main ‘competition’ to being able to ‘fully have’ Drusilla (which Spike won) to Buffy (which Spike also won but was simply too insecure to go be with Buffy. And this continues in BtVS S9 .


Then there's Why We Fight, where he's made to look really stupid in the flashbacks, and their past relationships is retconned into Angel being all leadery and idiot!Spike being subservient. Nothing was ret-conned. Spike in 1900 seemed to think that Angel also could kill a Slayer. In the “WWF” flashback, Angel seemed to know what was going on. Spike had been captured; he didn’t seem to have and idea how to ‘get out’ of the situation.

“The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) is a good episode. The argument for Buffy/Angel was that possibly Buffy didn’t love Spike as much as she loved Angel. And while not true (Buffy seems to have a deeper love for Spike), Spike was insecure and seemed to believe that she possibly loved Angel more. And anyway, he wanted a Buffy that was ONLY in love with him. The Buffy/Spike argument is that Spike had bunch of sex with her and she prefers the sex with Spike. Both true and something Angel couldn’t argue. But Spike couldn’t easily challenge that he had more of a relationship with Buffy (In the ‘verse, other than in “Life Serial” (6.05) (and if one wants to count “Fool For Love” (5.07)) Buffy and Spike have never even gone a date together). And the Immortal thing was simply to show that Angel and Spike are not the coolest people in the world.

_______________________________________________


Angel and Spike didn't choose to be family Angel about immediately decided that William and he were going to be best friends forever and William decided to stay with Angel and seemed to see Angel as a brother/father figure.

Stoney
21-09-12, 08:09 AM
Angel and Spike are BFFs and their only real point of contention is that Spike fell in love with and got with Drusilla and Buffy and both Drusilla and Buffy fell in love with Spike and chose Spike above Angel.



I never get where you draw the fight over Dru from. There was never a fight over her because she would always be willing to cuckold Spike with Angel. Dru was a convenient way of Angel showing Spike that he was alpha male as he carried on as if Spike had never arrived whenever he wanted to. He never had any doubts that Dru would pick him or want to be with him. So little doubts that it just isn't a competition and Spike knew that too.

I agree that Angel was insecure about the comparison between him and Spike as champions in A5. Understandably so, Spike chose to fight for his soul as a soulless demon and that is going to have an unsettling effect on Angel who is consumed with his special purpose. But one major thing we don't agree on is that I truly believe that Spike doesn't even like Angel that much, I certainly would never, ever call them BFFs! Jealous, competitive siblings at best (you can't chose your family and all that). I think a lot of Spike's issue with Angel is illustrated in S8... when Angel returns possessed to the seed chamber and Spike says something along the lines of 'finally chosen sides then'. I think Spike has little patience for Angel's self righteous justification of anything he does because he is the champion of the PTB. A lot of this will be likely answered and we will be more informed in this sense in S9... when Spike goes across to A&F. Having said that though, as Angel is being ridiculously pandered to in that title you will probably get validation of your opinion of them as Gage seems unable to write Angel as anything other than a tortured and misunderstood hero. Spike will probably turn up just to declare that he wishes he could be more like Angel because he's the best and he's soooo glad they can be BFFs 4eva!!! :lol: There is a chance with Spike's mini having the theme... of home coming through that he will be addressing their relationship as family members and in the context of Spike deciding where he wants to be and which people draw him to them. That is possible, but I think it is more likely to be related to Pearl and Nash, at least in the main.

vampmogs
21-09-12, 09:05 AM
But one major thing we don't agree on is that I truly believe that Spike doesn't even like Angel that much, I certainly would never, ever call them BFFs! Jealous, competitive siblings at best (you can't chose your family and all that).

BFFs? No. But I do believe Spike likes Angel a lot more than you think (and vice versa). There's a lot of jealousy, resentment, and aggravation between them but there's also love and comradeship too. There are a number of scenes throughout AtS S5 where they drop their bravado and their affection for one another comes through. Like in Hellbound when Angel tells Spike he always liked his poetry, or when Spike comes to Angel’s defence in TGIQ.

They have a respect for one another and there’s a sense of history between them that you simply don’t find in any of their other relationships. Some of my favourite Angel/Spike moments are the subtle ones, like in Power Play when the gang suspects that Angel has been corrupted and Spike is the last to wait for Angel to join them in his office – “You coming, then?” Or in A Hole in the World when they re-enact a moment they shared together in St Petersburg and slay the demon soldiers together. Angel and Spike are typical siblings in the sense that they bicker like crazy but the second one of them is in trouble or gets “picked on” by someone else, the other has his back no matter what. That’s what I loved so much about Spike immediately jumping to Angel’s defence in TGIQ. Both to Andrew;

ANDREW
Ah, Spike? Is Angel crying?”
SPIKE
(Defensively) No! … not yet.

And even ‘back in the day’ to defend Angelus’s honour;

SPIKE
Nuns are his thing! Everybody knows it! They respect it!

Heck, they spend all season long arguing about who’s the Champion and who isn’t but the moment they're belittled by the Italian CEO of W&H and you get Angel saying “We’re Champions!” Give these two somebody else to hate and then you see how much they really care for another. There’s genuine love and friendship between them, even if they have trouble expressing it.

It’s their competitiveness that drives a wedge between them. Whether it’s Spike wanting to take things away from Angel because he believes he has it too good, or Angel feeling like Spike is threatening his role as the signified monkey, or of course their rivalled affections for Buffy. But deep down they do genuinely like each other. Before Angelus started hitting on Dru again Spike was genuinely thrilled to have him back and Angelus is being sincere when he tells Spike in Becoming II that he missed having Spike watch his back. And I agree with King that you most definitely get the sense that on some level they enjoyed each other’s company because they could speak about their pasts without fear of judgement. And let's not downplay the fact that in Timebomb Angel takes a stake to the chest for Spike to save his life from Illyria.

My favourite Angel/Spike period is in the latter half of S5. They really stop bickering so much and begin working as a team and that's when their friendship really shines, IMO. I love all the little moments between them when it's just those two characters left (drinking over Fred's death on the jet, walking into Angel's office and discussing what happened to Cordy, talking about Lawson together as they watch the sun rise, battling the torture demon together in Underneath, briefly discussing the Shanshu Prophecy in NFA etc) and that's when you really feel the weight of their history together.



I agree that Angel was insecure about the comparison between him and Spike as champions in A5. Understandably so, Spike chose to fight for his soul as a soulless demon and that is going to have an unsettling effect on Angel who is consumed with his special purpose.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily about Angel being consumed with his special purpose. That's part of it, sure, but it's also about Angel doubting himself because he was stuck behind a desk playing CEO of Evil Inc. Angel was already doubting himself long before Spike even showed up and then Spike merely added to that self-doubt. If Spike had shown up in, say, S1, it still would have caused friction with Angel and it would still have stung Angel that he fought for his soul, but it wouldn’t have been anywhere near as bad because Angel would still have been ‘helping the helpless’ and would have been more confident and fulfilled in his life. Spike just appeared at a really bad time in Angel's life which was the whole point in the first place and why Lindsey dug up the amulet and sent it Los Angeles.

Angel took the W&H deal to save his son, after having already told Lilah that he doesn't believe you can ever change W&H and that he would never join them. Angel never actually believed that they could make a real difference he was only there for Connor and that's why it eats away at him so much. He tried to change the company but deep down he always knew it was futile. And then Spike blusters in making sweeping accusations that Angel made a deal with the devil, or traded in his cape and tights for a nice comfy chair at W&H, and all Angel can do is grit his teeth and bare through it because he can't ever say the real reason he took the deal.


I think a lot of Spike's issue with Angel is illustrated in S8...

when Angel returns possessed to the seed chamber and Spike says something along the lines of 'finally chosen sides then'.

I believe that was a reference to the Shanshu Prophecy -- "Vampire with a soul. Nobody knows what side he's going to fight on... when the big show comes down." Spike was hinting that the prophecy had been fulfilled and it had finally been revealed what side Angel had chosen.

Stoney
21-09-12, 10:09 AM
I take your points vamps, perhaps it is just me but I see a sibling fondness, I see that family side and loyalty etc but I don't equate that to liking someone. I don't think Spike would choose to have a friendship with Angel, I see that as a different thing to a familial relationship. We'll see what transpires in S9, there is no sign at the moment that Spike is showing any inkling of wanting to support or touch base with Angel because he cares. If they were great friends (even if you don't agree with the extreme of MikeB's BBFs belief), surely, by now he would have gone to see how he is. His reaction fits family and not friend to me, every time so far.

Rihannon
25-09-12, 12:55 AM
I always perceived their relationship more like a father/son (or even older brother-younger brother). Not the "wise father/good son" kind of relationship, but of the "immature, abusing father that changed his mind about how to raise children too late/rebel, antagonistic, disappointing son" kind.

Spike looks up to Angel, but not in a healthy way. He wants to be like him only because Angel gets what Spike yearns the most (Buffy's declared love, Dru's loyalty, respect from people he cares about...), just like a screwed up son would look up to his spirit-braking father. Of course, this would end up in the pissing contest already mentioned here.

At the same time, Angel didn't work as hard as Spike to get the things Spike wants and therefore, he doesn't deserve them as much... and he knows it. But he can't acknowledge this, and less before the younger vampire, because it would be like accepting his defeat (in the pissing contest, I mean).

Spike, in the other hand, has done his share of misbehaving in order to win Angel's rebuke. Spike himself accepts he is not a 100% good guy, as Angel is supposed to be... and never will, and shows an excessive joy in bringing out the worst of Angel. The interesting thing is, Spike's supposedly selfishness-motivated actions often appear to be more humane and standing in a higher moral ground than Angel's "the end justifies the means" kind of actions, that often end in lots of hurt and regret (even though the regret cannot be justified, since his actions were "the right thing to do"... I don't know if I'm making myself clear here... sorry).

I would lie if I said I didn't enjoy the silliness and pointless banter among them during AtS5, but also I cannot say it made me especially proud of the boys. I often felt Spike's character was somehow diminished so he wouldn't overshadow Angel too much. Besides, it was always clear to me that the only reason for Spike to stay away from Buffy, was SMG's reluctance to appear in the series. They had to give Spike reasons to stay, and it had to be something stronger than his insecurities.
That's why (to me, at least), the only reason for Spike to stay was to stand at Angel's side. After all, he is his family. They can fight, they can hate each other, they can do whatever it takes to hinder each other, but if someone else tries to harm one of them, they will stick together and face the threat.
And that's what family is about, isn't it?:D

Tennyoelf
25-09-12, 04:03 AM
Spike himself accepts he is not a 100% good guy, as Angel is supposed to be...

I agree with you Rihannon 99%...except this part, because I don't know if you mean just Spike POV wise or in general?

Personally I never saw Spike with the POV that Angel was better than him (as a good guy or what not). I agree that at times Spike looked up to Angel, but he always grew out of that. Spike looked up to Angel when he first became a vampire because, well, Angel is Angel. But then Spike rebelled and wanted to do things his own way. I think Spike felt the same after the soul as well, looking up to Angel then slowly growing on his own, pretty much staying with your father/son analogy.

However the idea of Spike never thinking himself to be as good (or a 100% good guy) as Angel just seems off to me. And if not from a POV wise, but in a general way, I think it's a core reason why Angel vs. Spike wars get started and/or heated up. Both are 100% good guys as long as both have a soul (TV land...comics are weird), they are just different. Both have their good and bad attributes. But depending on how you view good this can get tricky for some. Are you only good if your are polite plus save the day? Or can you be good so long as you save the day, but are a total ass in the process?

Spike just doesn't have the demeanor or look of a hero the way Angel does. If Spike thinks looking the part is essential to being a good guy than I have no idea what to say. I guess the definition of "good guy" is what is really up for debate. Personally, a good person puts forth the actions of a good guy. I've known plenty of rude, jackish people who are good people, they don't steal or hurt others...they just don't have a high social acceptance when it comes to personal communication.

Spike does have insecurities and feelings of worthlessness, but those have been diminishing over time. So yeah, that line just doesn't jive with me, for both Spike POV and the Spike/Angel dynamic.

TimeTravellingBunny
25-09-12, 04:42 AM
Neither of them is "100% good guy with a soul (on TV)", especially not Angel. I don't know how someone can watch all the 5 seasons of AtS and conclude that Angel is a "100% good guy".

Tennyoelf
25-09-12, 04:51 AM
Neither of them is "100% good guy with a soul (on TV)", especially not Angel. I don't know how someone can watch all the 5 seasons of AtS and conclude that Angel is a "100% good guy".

I should say "100% in trying to be good guys"?

I just meant that trying to say one is better at being good or is better than the other in being good just seems off to me.

Rihannon
25-09-12, 05:22 AM
I don't know if you mean just Spike POV wise or in general?

I meant Spike's POV. I like Spike's "Big Bad" way of being "good" much more than Angel's "Broody goody" way. I find it more honest, by far. The way I see it, Angel carries the "good guy" flag (which I personally find quite hypocritical of him, but that's material for another reflection). Spike does not, at least I don't have in mind a single time when he states being as "good" as Angel. In fact, I don't think he wants to.

IMHO, Angel shouldn't be the 100% good guy (but I think he is considered as such), he takes just too many bad choices, but at the end it seems like he is considered to have a cursed luck, not bad intentions. I don't find this attractive at all, but I understand it as necessary to keep the complexity of the character.

Of course I agree with you when you say


I think Spike felt the same after the soul as well, looking up to Angel then slowly growing on his own, pretty much staying with your father/son analogy.
There is a point where he stops looking up to Angel and starts to disapprove him. It is the way it should be, when a son (or a pupil, or a younger brother), outgrows his role model.

About everything else you said, I agree, completely. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Just for the record, Spike is the one fictional character I love above them all, and this dynamism you mention is part of what makes him so interesting.

Tennyoelf
25-09-12, 05:32 AM
About everything else you said, I agree, completely. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Just for the record, Spike is the one fictional character I love above them all, and this dynamism you mention is part of what makes him so interesting.

Okay! That makes it much more clear to me. Thank you!

Yes, I agree, I should have made myself a bit more clear as well. Both are good guys in the sense they try to be as best as they can, but both have different ways of going about it. Angel may have a darker side than Spike, at least he tries hard to fight it. Both have their own complexities that shouldn't be measured I think.

And I definitely agree about Spike, he is my kind of "good guy/hero" rather than Angel, but that's just my cuppa. :D

Stoney
25-09-12, 08:12 AM
On a basic level I think being the PTB champion has imbued Angel with too high a sense of self importance and it tends to be his own opinion of what is the right choice and the best path that he selects to follow. Often without seeking or having mind to the thoughts of others. Spike is less self assured so he will often contemplate what other people's expectations are of him and what other people are wanting to happen before he will go ahead, it is why he is happy to follow and not always trying to lead and I personally think results in better choices. I don't think it is better to follow than lead obviously, but Angel would be better off if he sought or accepted counsel more (he is still potentially calamitously dismissing other people's concerns towards his choices/actions in S9). But this is where a lot of Angel's biggest mistakes (that I have seen) have come from. Spike, on the other hand, could do with gaining some confidence in his self worth. I thought he came into S8 with it, confident in providing the information and his thoughts and able to help win the day. I think he definitely has more on his return but his opinion that he can still only be in the darkness shows he needs some more, I expect his choice at the end of his mini to contribute towards this self acceptance. This converse approach is also what feeds into the senior/junior dynamic between them and creates the times when it appears that Spike is almost looking up to Angel because he does weigh Angel's opinion into the mix in a way Angel does not with Spike.

Rihannon
25-09-12, 07:12 PM
Stoney, you explain it much better, than you!
And I agree. Angel has it tougher because being the "big boss" means having to make the hard decisions. And sometimes a leader has to take a path regardless of the opinions of the others (thing is, one have to wonders why his choices usually end up in such disastrous developments). It would be impossible to take into consideration what everybody else says. Still, the ability to hear and consider the thoughts of its team, shows good qualities in a leader. :)

Stoney
25-09-12, 09:33 PM
I'm not saying Angel has it tougher than Spike, not at all. I'm saying that Angel places himself in a leadership position but doesn't benefit from the input in decisions unless it suits him to use other people's strengths. Sure a leader has to often make the difficult choices but it shouldn't coincide with their perceived best own heroic notions. What seems to be the best to Angel for his own path isn't default correct because he is 'the champion of the PTB'. If Angel had respected Buffy enough to talk to her about Twilight then it wouldn't have happened. If Angel thought resurrecting Giles was something that should be done then why hide it? If it is something that he wants to do that is questionable he actively avoids other people's opinions and that is not good leadership. I don't think Angel listens unless he wants to hear what is being said anyway. So I agree that being able to hear and consider the thoughts of a team is a good leadership quality and I think Angel can do that. Unfortunately I think he is imbued with such a strong opinion of his self that he only hears and considers when it matches and supports what he wants to do. In the main anyway. Spike's weaknesses are the self generated barriers he puts up to his own position of worth in the overall scheme of things. That places him in a position that seems more junior to where Angel is placing himself and those two separate character issues play into their dynamic of older brother/younger brother etc.

Rihannon
25-09-12, 10:41 PM
Oh, when I say that Angel has it tougher, I mean he loaded himself with what being said 'champion' means. Not that he has to endure more difficulties in general. Spike has his share of load too, but differently distributed, I think.

Stoney
25-09-12, 10:50 PM
It's a wonder any of them try to be heroes, it doesn't seem very enjoyable!!

MikeB
08-11-12, 09:52 AM
All caught up



Stoney


My quote: Angel and Spike are BFFs and their only real point of contention is that Spike fell in love with and got with Drusilla and Buffy and both Drusilla and Buffy fell in love with Spike and chose Spike above Angel.

I never get where you draw the fight over Dru from. The flashbacks.


There was never a fight over her because she would always be willing to cuckold Spike with Angel. We saw one flashback. If anything, the others suggest that Angel slept with Darla and Dru and Spike slept with Dru and Darla. Spike and Dru weren’t an ‘exclusive’ couple until sometime after 1896.


Dru was a convenient way of Angel showing Spike that he was alpha male […] That doesn’t make any sense. In all of the flashbacks we’ve seen, Spike has considered Angel as the alpha male and/or an equal. This was still true in “Why We Fight”. Angel initially slept with Dru because he didn’t like how William was sentimentalizing his relationship with his sire and seeming to consider that Dru was his girl and not also Angel’s girl.


[…] as he carried on as if Spike had never arrived whenever he wanted to. This is simply untrue and contradicts the first part of your sentence. Angel continuing to have sex with Dru is simply Angel not adhering to Spike’s thinking that somehow Spike ‘owned’ Dru. Angel is Dru’s sire.


He never had any doubts that Dru would pick him or want to be with him. What do you mean by ‘pick him’?


So little doubts that it just isn't a competition and Spike knew that too. By 1896 or before, Angel and Darla were coupled up and Spike and Dru were coupled up.


But one major thing we don't agree on is that I truly believe that Spike doesn't even like Angel that much, I certainly would never, ever call them BFFs! If Angel isn’t Spike’s BFF, who is? In AtS s5, Spike decided to stay in LA and eventually decided to be a subordinate to Angel. And he did these things instead of going to be with Buffy. Spike in “Becoming Part II” (2.22) for some reason didn’t dust Angel. And certainly from 1880-1898, Angel and Spike were BFFs.


Jealous, competitive siblings at best (you can't chose your family and all that). I think a lot of Spike's issue with Angel is illustrated in S8... If anything, Angel’s still alive after BtVS S8. It’s Buffy who immediately tries to kill Angel. And it’s only the glow that stops her. There’s no strong evidence that Buffy after 8.39 would have protested Angel’s death. And there’s no evidence that Spike would much care about Faith’s opinion on the subject. And in BtVS S9, Spike still has his ship. If Spike wanted Angel dead, Angel would be dead.

________________________________________________


the extreme of MikeB's BBFs belief Really, I can’t see any reasoning regarding flashbacks like “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) that would conclude that Angel and Spike weren’t BFFs. And, again, Spike in AtS s5 pretty much decided to stay in Los Angeles with Angel than go off and be with Buffy again wherever she was. And given BtVS S9, I can take this further. Spike stayed in Los Angeles. Spike left Buffy even though he knew she needed help. If anything, far from being an extreme belief, it’s unreasonable to consider that Angel and Spike weren’t BFFs.

________________________________________________


his opinion that he can still only be in the darkness That has nothing to do with Spike’s self-worth. Spike has probably the highest self-esteem of anyone in the Buffyverse outside of the ‘dead’ Glorificus and Illyria. The ‘be in the darkness’ stuff only relates to his relationship with Buffy.

_________________________________________________


Spike's weaknesses are the self generated barriers he puts up to his own position of worth in the overall scheme of things. That places him in a position that seems more junior to where Angel is placing himself and those two separate character issues play into their dynamic of older brother/younger brother etc. Angel was made the champion of the Powers That Be in Los Angeles. When Spike thought he was the Power’s champion, he certainly viewed himself above Angel. Angel got into a huge depression because he thought that Spike was now the PTB’s champion. Spike’s position was ‘junior’ to Angel’s because Angel was the champion of the PTB, Angel was the leader of Wolfram and Hart’s flagship branch; even in Hell-LA, Angel was obviously the more ‘important’ person. It’s not as if Angel came onto Spike’s ship that Spike would defer to Angel or subordinate himself to Angel.



Rihannon


I always perceived their relationship more like a father/son (or even older brother-younger brother). Not the "wise father/good son" kind of relationship, but of the "immature, abusing father that changed his mind about how to raise children too late/rebel, antagonistic, disappointing son" kind. Huh?


Spike looks up to Angel, but not in a healthy way. Well, if that stuff in the IDW stuff isn’t canon, Spike hasn’t looked up to Angel since sometime after WWII.


He wants to be like him […] This doesn’t even apply to the IDW stuff. Spike doesn’t want to be like Angel.


[…] only because Angel gets what Spike yearns the most (Buffy's declared love, […] In “Crush” (5.14), Spike was dressing like Riley, expect more fashionable. Spike in BtVS S5 and after wasn’t trying to be like Angel. And his getting a soul as relates to Buffy is because of her continuing to say that he couldn’t love without a soul and that she couldn’t love him as he was. If Buffy in BtVS S6 admitted to him that she loved him, he would have very likely never gotten a soul.


[…] Dru's loyalty, […] If anything, Spike was acting like the exact opposite of Angel.


[…] respect from people he cares about...), Huh? The Fang Gang seemed to only care about each other. And Spike only needed that chip to be able to be among the Scoobies. And they all took his side in “Goodbye Iowa” (4.14?). Spike got more respect from the Scoobies than Angel ever did.


At the same time, Angel didn't work as hard as Spike to get the things Spike wants By what definition? Angel had to sire Drusilla to get Dru. Spike had to simply be himself to get Dru. And after killing a Slayer, Spike and Dru were off on a ‘honeymoon’ for 98 years. Buffy? Well, she was an inexperienced boy-crazy 16-year-old when Angel first approached her. Angel killed Darla. Angel had to have a soul in order to even hang around Buffy. Spike tried to kill Buffy for years. He was able to stay among the Scoobies and Buffy even after things like Adam and trying to remove the chip. Buffy didn’t need to believe that Spike hadn’t killed for over a century and that he’s been good for over a century in order to be in a relationship with him. As for the soul, Spike’s not cursed and he was insane in the basement for around three weeks and that’s only because of the First Evil. Angel’s still miserable and has only been perfectly happy like 3 times in over 100 years.


I often felt Spike's character was somehow diminished so he wouldn't overshadow Angel too much. He was.


Besides, it was always clear to me that the only reason for Spike to stay away from Buffy, was SMG's reluctance to appear in the series. Even if SMG came on the show, Buffy and Spike would still be parting ways unless SMG stayed from A 5.09 – A 5.22.


They had to give Spike reasons to stay, and it had to be something stronger than his insecurities. He believed that Buffy still had feelings for Angel. That’s why he stayed away.



Tennyoelf

Spike since “School Hard” (2.03) – outside of some IDW stuff – is never shown to look up to Angel.


However the idea of Spike never thinking himself to be as good (or a 100% good guy) as Angel just seems off to me. It should. Spike in AtS and after – again, outside of some IDW stuff – thought himself as more good than Angel.


Both are 100% good guys as long as both have a soul Angel statutorily raped Buffy. Spike didn’t reveal to Buffy that the Hellmouth was full of vampires.


Spike does have insecurities and feelings of worthlessness, He’s never had feelings of worthlessness and all of his insecurities regarded whether or not a certain woman completely loved him and no one else.

Rihannon
21-11-12, 04:52 PM
Huh?



Well, this is the way I see it, what else can I say? Always thought the geniality of this series (both Buffy and Angel) resides in the skillful way in which they made people see themselves (or people that are close to them) in the characters and situations.
That's why I think I can identify a few behavioral patterns there, but that's me, other people could perceive it differently.




Well, if that stuff in the IDW stuff isn’t canon, Spike hasn’t looked up to Angel since sometime after WWII...

...This doesn’t even apply to the IDW stuff. Spike doesn’t want to be like Angel.


When I wrote this, I was thinking in AtS season 5, all the time. Personally, I liked Spike in the IDW series, and one of the reasons is his apparent development, that includes leaving most of his "Angel burden" behind. Again, that's how I see it.




In “Crush” (5.14), Spike was dressing like Riley, expect more fashionable. Spike in BtVS S5 and after wasn’t trying to be like Angel. And his getting a soul as relates to Buffy is because of her continuing to say that he couldn’t love without a soul and that she couldn’t love him as he was. If Buffy in BtVS S6 admitted to him that she loved him, he would have very likely never gotten a soul.



Well, yes. But what I meant is that Buffy openly accepted that she loved Angel, not the same with Spike. After all this years, I can't say what Buffy feels for him, and I don't know if somebody can.




If anything, Spike was acting like the exact opposite of Angel.



As it should be. Again, I don't see the contradiction.




Huh? The Fang Gang seemed to only care about each other. And Spike only needed that chip to be able to be among the Scoobies. And they all took his side in “Goodbye Iowa” (4.14?). Spike got more respect from the Scoobies than Angel ever did.



If you say so... I don't see it that way, though.



He believed that Buffy still had feelings for Angel. That’s why he stayed away.


He probably did, but that didn't stop him before.:)

kana
09-12-12, 02:34 PM
Best Friends or Rivals?

I've actually somewhat confused as to why anyone would argue that they have to be one or the other.

We often place simplistic labels on relationships because it helps us to understand them better, but I find the problem becomes these labels are either inappropriate or don't take into account the different elements of their relationship.

So they may be 'friends' but also rivals etc.

Even if they care for each other more than they want to admit, it doesn't mean they don't have issues. For example, what about their different temperaments? Spike is more talkative while Angel is more taciturn. Historically Angel was more planned, methodical and conservative, whereas Spike was more impulsive, joie de vivre and rebellious. These issues are brought up in FFL, Damage etc. They even talk about these differences in Hellbound.

Relationships don't happen in a vacuum. Rivalries over women, destiny, moral superiority etc are going to play a part, as well as shared experiences, things in common and other positive attributes.


When people try to label their relationship, why can't we say all of the above?

Stoney
09-12-12, 06:55 PM
I think they have a lot of different facets to their relationship and I suppose that is why rivalling siblings as a dynamic works for me because you are likely to find periods of great variance, times when they can't stand each other through to times when they go out of their way to help each other. I don't think 'friends' have the longevity through the bad periods that 'family' stick and Spike and Angel have stuck around each other on and off. I disagree with those who feel that they have been/are best friends. Perhaps Spike may have felt more like that in his fledgeling years but he was a little in awe of Angel at first and wanted to impress him so it wasn't really a best friend relationship so much as an older brother/mentor one. I just don't think they have a best friends element to their interactions, as I perceive one to be, I don't see evidence of it. I don't think they actually like each other much personally they are so very different and don't/wouldn't choose to spend time around each other in the way friends do. The frenemies label (which always makes me cringe a little as a term) is probably better suited. Sometimes I think they genuinely like the connection that they have, feel it keenly for the time they have known each other and their souled states now and they skirt around the edges of friendship but I just can't see it ever really getting there, not really because essentially they are too different and don't get on like that. But as a familial bond I think they have a strong connection, albeit reluctantly sometimes. There is a lot in the mix with those two.

TimeTravellingBunny
09-12-12, 07:50 PM
I don't think 'friends' have the longevity through the bad periods that 'family' stick and Spike and Angel have stuck around each other on and off.
I believe that real friends have the longevity through the bad periods, but just as with lovers, friendship is a relationship originally and essentially based on liking each other, enjoying each other's company, choosing each other, while familial relationships are not; people just are your family because they are, not because you liked them or chose them (except if you're a parent who chose to adopt a child). Spike and Angel never chose each other; they became (vampire) family, but Drusilla chose William, not Angel(us). A familial relationship is the closest to what they are; they really are like bickering, competitive brothers.

MikeB
19-12-12, 11:36 AM
Rihannon

First off, nice Profile Pic. Some don’t like the bugs, but I consider that they’re better written and have more personality than just about anyone has in the post-BtVS S8 comics. Probably only the Drusilla has had better characterization.


Well, this is the way I see it, what else can I say? Always thought the geniality of this series (both Buffy and Angel) resides in the skillful way in which they made people see themselves (or people that are close to them) in the characters and situations.
That's why I think I can identify a few behavioral patterns there, but that's me, other people could perceive it differently. You said:
I always perceived their relationship more like a father/son (or even older brother-younger brother). Not the "wise father/good son" kind of relationship, but of the "immature, abusing father that changed his mind about how to raise children too late/rebel, antagonistic, disappointing son" kind.” Angel wasn’t immature and his abuse seems mostly about trying to make William a ‘better’ vampire, or at least what Angel considered that to be. As for Spike being a “disappointing son”, he is by far Angel’s favorite ‘son’. Remember that Angel simply abandoned Penn and Penn had no idea why. And Angel had abandoned James and Elizabeth and both had no idea why. It was Spike and Drusilla who actually abandoned Angel and Darla. Angel is still buddies with Spike in BtVS S2 and after. Angel only problem with Spike is that Spike ‘took’ Drusilla and Buffy from Angel. As for Spike being antagonistic, in the flashbacks we only saw that in the mineshaft scene in “Fool For Love” (5.07). For the 1998 stuff and after, it’s simply Spike giving Angel constructive criticism, which isn’t the same as being antagonistic.


When I wrote this, I was thinking in AtS season 5, all the time. Spike didn’t look up to Angel in AtS s5 in the present-day stuff. Spike didn’t want to be like Angel. Spike didn’t know that Angel was the champion of the PTB. He decided to simply do some good in Los Angeles and Lindsey actually was helping Spike do good. For the Shanshu, again, Spike didn’t consider that somehow that was Angel’s just because Angel and his Fang Gang thought that. So, I don’t see where Spike wanted to be like Angel.


Personally, I liked Spike in the IDW series, and one of the reasons is his apparent development, that includes leaving most of his "Angel burden" behind. Again, that's how I see it. Spike in the beginning of the AtF stuff somehow saw Angel as more evolved – literally, they used an evolution photo thing – than Spike was. That simply made no sense because Angel was cursed while Spike fought through the Trials to get his soul back.


But what I meant is that Buffy openly accepted that she loved Angel, not the same with Spike. After all this years, I can't say what Buffy feels for him, and I don't know if somebody can. First off, Buffy in “Dead Things” (6.13) acknowledges to herself that she’s in love with Spike, “You always hurt the one you love.” Buffy in “First Date” (7.14) has a ‘Freudian slip’, “Why does everyone in this house think I’m still in love with Spike?” and, of course, she would be referring to her being in love with Spike in BtVS S6 – at latest – and after. It’s canon that Buffy in “Chosen” (7.22) was telling Spike the truth. Joss Whedon in interviews about that episode states that Buffy is in love with Spike. And Buffy’s still in love with Spike. The problem isn’t Buffy’s feelings, the problem is Spike keeps leaving her and he can’t stand that she may have any feelings for Angel. But maybe things will change by the end of the BtVS S9: Spike miniseries.

Anyway, Buffy did accept that she loved Spike. It’s simply that she refused to tell anyone that Spike is her boyfriend and it seems “Chosen” (7.22) was the first time she told him that she loved him.



My quote: Huh? The Fang Gang seemed to only care about each other. And Spike only needed that chip to be able to be among the Scoobies. And they all took his side in “Goodbye Iowa” (4.14?). Spike got more respect from the Scoobies than Angel ever did.

If you say so... I don't see it that way, though. Well, for the Fang Gang stuff… I had to go back to your earlier post to even know what we were discussing:
Spike looks up to Angel, but not in a healthy way. He wants to be like him only because Angel gets what Spike yearns the most (Buffy's declared love, Dru's loyalty, respect from people he cares about...), So, in this context: Who does Spike care about that he doesn’t get respect from? Hopefully, you’re not referring to constant respect as that wouldn’t apply to Angel either. So, in general, Spike gets respect from: Drusilla, Angel, Buffy, Willow, Illyria, Fred, (if canon: Beck), and Dawn in BtVS S5 and early BtVS S6 (the only times it’s obvious he cares about Dawn).

For my saying this: “And Spike only needed that chip to be able to be among the Scoobies. And they all took his side in “Goodbye Iowa” (4.14?). Spike got more respect from the Scoobies than Angel ever did.” the only possibly debatable thing is “Spike got more respect from the Scoobies than Angel ever did. If we refer to the overall respect they got from the Scoobies, Spike wins that because he actually became a real member of the Scoobies (BtVS S7) and was actually Buffy’s Number 2 (BtVS S7) and in BtVS S8 he actually leads them for a short time . Angel in ways was less of a Scooby than even Riley was. And, of course, there’s the “Pangs” (4.08) example. Without any real proof other than Spike didn’t actually kill Willow, Spike is invited into Giles’s home and all the other Scoobies are there. And, albeit he’s tied up, Spike actually eats at the Thanksgiving table and he’s right next to Buffy. Meanwhile, Willow and Xander naturally consider that Angel is evil upon first seeing him even though there’s no reason for them to think that (both would still be assuming that only sleeping with Buffy would turn Angel evil).


My quote: He believed that Buffy still had feelings for Angel. That’s why he stayed away.

He probably did, but that didn't stop him before. Being lovers with someone and being in a relationship with someone is different from thinking about being in a ‘marriage’ with someone.

Spike could deal with Drusilla still having sex with Angel when Spike was merely lovers and in a relationship with Drusilla. But after Angel ‘gives her away’ in 1900, Spike and Dru are in a ‘marriage’. So after that Spike’s not going to put up with Dru having any romantic or physical feelings for Angel or her cheating on Spike even if it was only because Spike’s in love with Buffy and constantly thinking about Buffy and he “tastes like ashes” and such.

So, for Spike, after Buffy tells him in “End of Days” (7.21) she wants to talk about her future with him, Spike wants to wait. But then he sees her kissing Angel and he perhaps overhears their entire Graveyard Scene. Spike didn’t want to be in a ‘marriage’ with Buffy if she still possibly has romantic feelings for Angel.



kana


Best Friends or Rivals?

I've actually somewhat confused as to why anyone would argue that they have to be one or the other. That’s why Gossip Girl gave rise to the term “frenemy” to describe the relationship between Serena Van Der Woodsen and Blair Waldorf.

And the term doesn’t apply to Angel and Spike’s relationship. The only thing that Angel and Spike were rivals over are Drusilla and Buffy. Drusilla was no longer a real rivalry after 1900. And after 2003, the rivalry over Buffy on Spike’s side was only about Spike thinking that Buffy may prefer a human Angel over vampire Spike. And in BtVS S8 and after it’s simply back to Spike not wanting Buffy having any romantic feelings for Angel. But, again, it’s not really a rivalry for Spike, it’s simply Spike’s issue of wanting a Buffy who pretty much thinks, “Angel’s lame. His hair sticks straight up and he’s bloody stupid.” The rivalry is actually real on Angel’s side. Angel tried to take Buffy to another dimension that’s a paradise and Buffy naturally literally wears Spike’s coat and then wears a white shirt with a HUGE Union Jack on it and those are the last two “former Slayer” costumes she wears before putting on a Buffy costume and leaving the dimension. Then – while she’s still under the control of Twilight – Angel believes that Buffy’s shooing him away in favor of being with Spike (which, she was). And, of course, in AtS s5, Angel fully believed that if Buffy saw Spike that she’d welcome him with open arms. So, really, Angel doesn’t think that Spike is so much a rival for being with Buffy as much as Angel thinks that if Spike is simply willing to be with Buffy that she would be with Spike and Angel can’t do anything to stop that.

So, one can’t be frenemies if there isn’t actually a real rivalry or if the rivalry is so unbalanced as to make it about meaningless.



Stoney


I don't think 'friends' have the longevity through the bad periods that 'family' stick and Spike and Angel have stuck around each other on and off. I disagree with those who feel that they have been/are best friends. Perhaps Spike may have felt more like that in his fledgeling years but he was a little in awe of Angel at first and wanted to impress him so it wasn't really a best friend relationship so much as an older brother/mentor one. I just don't think they have a best friends element to their interactions, Well, obviously “family” is above “BFFs”. Hmmm, I don’t actually remember Spike ever referring to Drusilla as his “mother” or Angel as his “grandfather”. He says such words as “sire” and “grandsire”. That’s something Drusilla did, she called Angel “Daddy”, and Darla “Grandmother” and “Daughter” but it’s perhaps notable that she doesn’t even call Spike “son” in the “Fool For Love” (5.07)/“Darla” (A 2.07)) flashbacks. She says, “My little Spike just killed himself a Slayer.”, which obviously in context given she was mostly directing her pride and superiority at Darla means “My son killed a Slayer, and your son has done no such distinguished thing.” So, I don’t know if Spike actually consciously considered Drusilla his “mother” or Angel his “grandfather”. And given that he was disgusted and appalled that vampire Anne said that Spike wanted to have sex with his own mother, I don’t think Spike would consider that he was literally having sex with his mother (and later his grandmother). I consider that Angel could have considered Spike either a younger brother or a son but I don’t consider that Spike thought of Angel literally as an older brother or father. And at-most he would consider Angel an older brother figure or a father figure, which isn’t the same thing. Hmm. Anyway, if they both considered each other family than that’s at a higher level than if they considered each other his BFF. It’s not as if Xander and Willow were downgraded or demoted in Buffy’s mind when she started thinking of them as family instead of as BFFs.


I don't think they actually like each other much personally How do you explain the “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) flashback stuff?


they are so very different and don't/wouldn't choose to spend time around each other in the way friends do. They aren’t actually that different in terms of what kind of vampires they are. Their being devoted to their sires makes them much alike. Their both being members of the Master’s bloodline (literally) makes them much alike. They are more like each other than about all other vampires we see in the Buffyvers. And regarding friendships, if Buffy were never the Slayer, she never would have befriended Xander, Willow, Oz, etc. So, so what that Angel and Spike wouldn’t have been friends had Drusilla not sired Spike. Really, Angel was so beneath William Pratt’s social class he would never have even had the opportunity to try to be friends with William. And Liam and Angel seemed to hate the English and William Pratt was a wealthy Victorian aristocrat who was a poet and therefore about as English as one could be at the time other than being Queen Victoria herself (who William seemed to have her physician treating his mother’s tuberculosis). Really, I consider it bizarre to mention on a Buffyverse Board that people who are different from one another couldn’t be friends. The Fang Gang also was only friends with each other because they were all involved in the supernatural and Angel hired the other members.



TimeTravellingBunny


Spike and Angel never chose each other; they became (vampire) family, but Drusilla chose William, not Angel(us). Angel did choose William. William could have simply been Drusilla’s paramour or whatever but Angel chose to mentor him, put him under his tutelage, and chose to be “very best friends” with him. He didn’t have to do any of that. For his part, in 1880, Spike was already infamous in London as “William the Bloody” to the point that Angel and Darla decided that they needed to hide in a mineshaft for fear that an angry mob or maybe the Slayer would come and kill them. Spike could have tried to find other vampires – or sired others – who were interested in getting into fights with mobs and such and who didn’t want to dress like rich people. He didn’t. He tried to get Angel to be more like him and he kept Angel as his “very best friend”. And he didn’t have to do that. Nothing suggests that Spike was forbidden from having male friends. So, they did chose each other.


A familial relationship is the closest to what they are; they really are like bickering, competitive brothers. That doesn’t apply to about all of their relationship. The mineshaft flashback in “Fool For Love” (5.07) doesn’t even apply. So, the bickering would be something like the Caveman Vs. Astronauts scene (which even that isn’t unimportant because it’s about innate power versus power one has by being a part of a powerful organization: for Spike and Angel this would boil down to something like Spike’s killed two Slayers while Angel is currently head of the Wolfram and Hart Los Angeles branch). They were competitive while fighting over the Cup of Eternal Torment and they were later competitive over who’s going to save Buffy from the Immortal.

kana
28-12-12, 11:48 AM
kana

That’s why Gossip Girl gave rise to the term “frenemy” to describe the relationship between Serena Van Der Woodsen and Blair Waldorf.

And the term doesn’t apply to Angel and Spike’s relationship. The only thing that Angel and Spike were rivals over are Drusilla and Buffy.

For me, that would render many of the issues discussed in Destiny, rather meaningless. Although Drusilla and Buffy came up, there were clearly other issues of moral superiority and other areas of rivalry.

Spike later on actually straight out says to Angel:

"You really can't stand the competition" which in context doesn't really appear as if it's simply referring to their relationship with Buffy, or Drusilla for that matter.

I'd most likely describe them as Vitriolic Bet Buds (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VitriolicBestBuds)



Drusilla was no longer a real rivalry after 1900.

I'd say this is certainly the case when Angel has a soul, but Spike certainly didn't seem to like the fact that Dru went to visit Angel by herself.


And after 2003, the rivalry over Buffy on Spike’s side was only about Spike thinking that Buffy may prefer a human Angel over vampire Spike.

Human Angel? Spike didn't know about the Shanshu prophecy until Season 5 of Ats and by that time, it didn't take him long to think he may also be a candidate, so as far as I remember there was never a time when he thought Buffy may 'prefer human Angel over vampire Spike'.


And in BtVS S8 and after it’s simply back to Spike not wanting Buffy having any romantic feelings for Angel. But, again, it’s not really a rivalry for Spike, it’s simply Spike’s issue of wanting a Buffy who pretty much thinks, “Angel’s lame. His hair sticks straight up and he’s bloody stupid.”

This would make Spike incredibly insecure or petty. Most likely both! Why would he need such constant validation that Buffy would need to disparage Angel as much as that? Either Spike is secure about how Buffy feels about him or he isn't. If Angel is a factor then he's not all that secure. If Spike is totally secure about how Buffy feels about them, then Angel shouldn't be a factor.


The rivalry is actually real on Angel’s side. Angel tried to take Buffy to another dimension that’s a paradise and Buffy naturally literally wears Spike’s coat and then wears a white shirt with a HUGE Union Jack on it and those are the last two “former Slayer” costumes she wears before putting on a Buffy costume and leaving the dimension.

Well it depends on how individuals read into this symbolism, however I do think ever since Spike got himself a soul, there was a definite sense of rivalry on Angel's part.



Then – while she’s still under the control of Twilight – Angel believes that Buffy’s shooing him away in favor of being with Spike (which, she was). And, of course, in AtS s5, Angel fully believed that if Buffy saw Spike that she’d welcome him with open arms.

It's definitely something that Angel feared, and we see this Soul Purpose, but I think it's significant that Spike, in general, is taking over all apsects of Angel's life. He wants to help people, yet Spike is doing that. He took Buffy to the Prom and this was mentioned when Spike was having sex with her, something that Angel worried about doing. He also Shanshus, which was something that gave Angel hope in his unlife. I believe the jealousy here is multi-layered.


So, really, Angel doesn’t think that Spike is so much a rival for being with Buffy as much as Angel thinks that if Spike is simply willing to be with Buffy that she would be with Spike and Angel can’t do anything to stop that.

It's uncertain. By TGIQ, Spike said he never had a shot with her. We'll only agree that he believes Spike is a genuine threat.


So, one can’t be frenemies if there isn’t actually a real rivalry or if the rivalry is so unbalanced as to make it about meaningless.

Because Spike automatically wins? Buffy never formally chose Spike over Angel. I know a lot of Spuffy fans infer this from the events of Chosen, but unless Buffy is lying to both or either men, she's not choosing Spike over Angel. Again, I'm reluctant to turn this into a Spike vs Angel thread, but i'm loathed to something being presented as 'fact' when it is merely biased opinion at worse and personal interpretation at best.




How do you explain the “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) flashback stuff?

True! It actually links in with Season 2 as well.

Angelus: Yeah. Good point. Alright, don't kill him. (leans down to
Spike) You know, I kinda like having you watch my back. It's kinda like
old times. (chuckles)

I actually don't think Angelus is being fake here.



They aren’t actually that different in terms of what kind of vampires they are. Their being devoted to their sires makes them much alike. Their both being members of the Master’s bloodline (literally) makes them much alike.

That just it, they have a lot in common, but there are also differences. Some of this was demonstrated in their MO when they were evil. This was wonderfully underscored in Damage.

I wrote this on another forum:


I also like how their methods of doing good reflect how they did their evil.

SoullessSpike was more about rush, the chaos and unpredictability. SoulledSpike rushes out, goes on impulse and follows his keen senses. He finds the girl faster than Angel.

Angelus was more about the methodical destruction of a human being. Angel thinks things through, conducts an orderly investigation and sets up the team to subdue Dana. He also finds out before Spike that they are dealing with a Slayer.

Their rivalry and conflict goes beyond the women they love but they seem to share bond that defies the typical labels.

Rihannon
29-12-12, 05:01 AM
MikeB
I'm glad you like my user pic, I was starting to fear that said picture was the reason why I don't get many answers lately... :p Thank you.

As I said, my impressions about their relationship in the "abusive father/disappointing son" kind are only about Angel(post soul)/Spike. I won't say I've seen and read everything that gives a clue about their early relationship, but I understand they got along pretty well when they were both evil. The dynamics (at least IMHO) I identified that (to me) resemble to what I described in my first post happened only when they where both souled.


Spike in the beginning of the AtF stuff somehow saw Angel as more evolved – literally, they used an evolution photo thing – than Spike was. That simply made no sense because Angel was cursed while Spike fought through the Trials to get his soul back.

Well, I'm right there with you... It seems that the people that did the comic books didn't want us to forget who the real "evolved guy" was, even if it didn't make much sense.

About Buffy loving Spike, some times I'm sure she did, sometimes I'm sure she still does, sometimes I think she never really did. Not the way he wanted, anyway. I understand well what you say, I even remember SMG saying in an interview something in the lines of "Buffy really loved Spike, he stayed with her when nobody else did"... and I guess she would know.

I really hope things change after Spike's miniseries, though.

About Spike getting respect from the scoobies. Well, I always perceived what they had for him more alike to tolerance than respect. They respected him in the "don't mess with him" sense, but not in the "we acknowledge your worth" way. Of course, he did his worse to avoid getting this kind of respect from them, what would make one think he really didn't wanted if after all. I think they tolerated him during BtVS seasons 5 and 6 because he was convenient (except for Dawn, who really cared for him), and during season 7 because Buffy simply wouldn't take it otherwise. So yeah, maybe I was wrong and Spike really didn't want respect from anybody (maybe except Dru, Buffy, and a few others), but somehow I always thought that at some level he did. I think that, since he tried to be the opposite from his human self, he would force himself to make the opinions of other people matter nothing to him... but this could be a defense mechanism to avoid being hurt, that only would spare him to a certain point.


So, for Spike, after Buffy tells him in “End of Days” (7.21) she wants to talk about her future with him, Spike wants to wait. But then he sees her kissing Angel and he perhaps overhears their entire Graveyard Scene. Spike didn’t want to be in a ‘marriage’ with Buffy if she still possibly has romantic feelings for Angel.

This is an interesting take. Do you think he was ready to this kind of commitment? I'm sure she wouldn't be, but maybe he would... Maybe that's why he keeps leaving her? Because, if he is expecting that much from her, I don't see him getting it any time soon...

Not that I wouldn't love to see it, even if I have to wait :D

TimeTravellingBunny
31-12-12, 05:57 PM
Well, I'm right there with you... It seems that the people that did the comic books didn't want us to forget who the real "evolved guy" was, even if it didn't make much sense.

I wonder if Lynch had seen Whedon's interview in which Whedon described Spike as "more evolved" than Angel. If he hasn't, then the evolution panel only comes off as an unintentional Eff You to Joss.

Rihannon
01-01-13, 12:05 AM
I wonder if Lynch had seen Whedon's interview in which Whedon described Spike as "more evolved" than Angel. If he hasn't, then the evolution panel only comes off as an unintentional Eff You to Joss.

Didn't konw this... Probably neither did B. Lynch. So, if Joss says so, it is what Joss says. And that would be the last word!:D

MikeB
28-01-13, 06:31 AM
kana


For me, that would render many of the issues discussed in Destiny, rather meaningless. Although Drusilla and Buffy came up , there were clearly other issues of moral superiority and other areas of rivalry. Hmm, it seemed to be taken as a given that Spike had moral superiority over Angel. The fight over the Cup seemed to be a fight over Buffy.


I'd most likely describe them as Vitriolic Bet Buds I read through that and it seems to be akin to “frenemies”, although, conspicuously, Serena and Blair aren’t listed.


My quote: [i] And after 2003, the rivalry over Buffy on Spike’s side was only about Spike thinking that Buffy may prefer a human Angel over vampire Spike.

Human Angel? Spike didn't know about the Shanshu prophecy until Season 5 of Ats and by that time, it didn't take him long to think he may also be a candidate, so as far as I remember there was never a time when he thought Buffy may 'prefer human Angel over vampire Spike'. Well, his in AtS s5 thinking such a thing is a decent reason why he would actually stay in Los Angeles instead of going to be with Buffy.


My quote: And in BtVS S8 and after it’s simply back to Spike not wanting Buffy having any romantic feelings for Angel. But, again, it’s not really a rivalry for Spike, it’s simply Spike’s issue of wanting a Buffy who pretty much thinks, “Angel’s lame. His hair sticks straight up and he’s bloody stupid.”

This would make Spike incredibly insecure or petty. Most likely both! It’s not petty to want your ‘life partner’ to not have any romantic feelings for anyone else. Spike isn’t insecure. He wants Buffy completely to himself.


My quote: So, really, Angel doesn’t think that Spike is so much a rival for being with Buffy as much as Angel thinks that if Spike is simply willing to be with Buffy that she would be with Spike and Angel can’t do anything to stop that.

It's uncertain. By TGIQ, Spike said he never had a shot with her. We'll only agree that he believes Spike is a genuine threat. Angel considered that even glowified Buffy would perhaps ‘be’ with Spike after being on his space ship.


My quote: So, one can’t be frenemies if there isn’t actually a real rivalry or if the rivalry is so unbalanced as to make it about meaningless.

Because Spike automatically wins? If Spike hadn’t died in “Chosen” (7.22) and decided to be with Buffy, she’d have been with him from then. If Spike had gone to Buffy at the end of “Destiny” (A 5.08), she would have been with him from then.


Their rivalry and conflict goes beyond the women they love Their only ‘real’ conflict would be over Buffy. But we’ll see what happens in A&F 9.18-9.20 .



Rihannon


MikeB, I'm glad you like my user pic, I was starting to fear that said picture was the reason why I don't get many answers lately... Thank you. It seems the bugs became popular among those that read BtVS S9: Spike. Sad what happened in BtVS S9: Spike 5/5.


my impressions about their relationship in the "abusive father/disappointing son" kind are only about Angel(post soul)/Spike I don’t see this. Angel has moments that could be considered ‘abusive’, but: What evidence is there that Angel’s disappointed in Spike?


* I don’t get why Buffy would love Spike more after he keeps on leaving her.


* Giles very soon after learning of Spike’s chip wanted Spike to be a Scooby. Willow since “Lovers Walk” (3.08) – to an extent – seemed to like Spike. After “Him” (7.06), Xander becomes quasi-friends with Spike. Spike got respect from the Scoobies. Remember that all of them in “Goodbye Iowa” (4.14) supported Spike above Riley.

I’ll address “Chosen” (7.22): some point out that the Scoobies (barring Buffy) weren’t crying over Spike’s death. I’ve actually never seen anyone counter that Xander didn’t cry over Anya’s death and I’m doing that right here. :)


* I’d prefer not to discuss Buffy/Spike in this thread outside of its impact on the dynamic between Angel and Spike.

kana
05-02-13, 02:46 PM
kana

Hmm, it seemed to be taken as a given that Spike had moral superiority over Angel. The fight over the Cup seemed to be a fight over Buffy.

I'm not going to get into a Spike vs Angel debate, but what I will say is that it seems that Angel seems suprised that Spike beat him in the fight and also that he may not be "The one".


I read through that and it seems to be akin to “frenemies”, although, conspicuously, Serena and Blair aren’t listed.

Yeah, I mean there are so many lables you could place upon their relationship.


Well, his in AtS s5 thinking such a thing is a decent reason why he would actually stay in Los Angeles instead of going to be with Buffy.

Not only is there no indication that Spike was thinking that, but it's makes little sense. Why would Spike suddenly think he's not a candidate for the Shanshu prophecy following Destiny. This is even more confusing as you stated that it was a given that Spike had moral superiority over Angel. I still believe that Spike wasn't all that confident that he had a 'shot with Buffy'. I'm not making this up, Spike actually says so.


It’s not petty to want your ‘life partner’ to not have any romantic feelings for anyone else. Spike isn’t insecure. He wants Buffy completely to himself.


Feelings are not something we can control, but we can control what we do about it. If Buffy were to choose Spike over Angel, then Spike has nothing to worry about, but Spike didn't seem all that secure about his being with Buffy. Again, I don't want this to turn into a shipping war, so I'll leave it there.




Their only ‘real’ conflict would be over Buffy.

They also talked about moral superiority and destiny. I suppose your argument though was that it was all about who would Shanshu and be with Buffy. If this is your argument, we will agree to disagree.

MikeB
06-03-13, 06:59 AM
kana

* Angel didn’t tell his Fang Gang that Spike was ensouled; had been helping the Scoobies for years; and died saving the world, destroying Sunnydale, and closing the Hellmouth – Angel was already very insecure of his Shanshu status before they actually fought over the Cup.


* Angel was bothered that Spike beat him for the Cup. I’m not sure he was actually surprised.


* Spike didn’t care about the Shanshu other than if Angel became human, it would perhaps complicate Buffy/Spike. Spike wants Buffy 100% to himself in terms of whom she has romantic feelings for – Spike knew he could go be with Buffy but he simply assumed she still has some feelings for Angel and she may have even more feelings for Angel if Angel became human.

Nikki
06-03-13, 11:28 AM
Can't remember the last time I posted in Buffy/Angel thread.. but I've just finished re-watching so it's all fresh in my head :D
* Angel didn’t tell his Fang Gang that Spike was ensouled; had been helping the Scoobies for years; and died saving the world, destroying Sunnydale, and closing the Hellmouth – Angel was already very insecure of his Shanshu status before they actually fought over the Cup.In my opinion it wasn’t because of the Shanshu that Angel didn't tell the gang about Spike but because he didn't want them to like and include Spike in the gang. I think he's got a lot of jealousy when it comes to Spike, if you think back, it used to be just Angel with Dru and Darla, then Spike came along and essentially took his place when he was ensouled. Same in Sunnydale, Angel was pretty much one of the Scoobies and again Spike came along and ended up part of the gang when Angel left. That would give anyone a bit of a complex. This is his gang and I think he didn't want it to include Spike. He never completed trusted him either, even with a soul.


* Angel was bothered that Spike beat him for the Cup. I’m not sure he was actually surprised.I think he was very surprised. I saw that it called into question how much he really wanted to become human, as remember he gave it back in IWRY. Also that he was very comfortable in his office in the sky, not out fighting as much.

The vampire line is supposed to get a bit weaker the further down it goes. The Master made Darla and she made Angel, who made Dru who in turn made Spike. So essentially Angel should be stronger that Spike. And in his mind he believed the Shanshu was his destiny so why wouldn't he win the fight for the cup? Not only did Spike want it more but that made him able to beat what should have been a stronger opponent IMO.


* Spike didn’t care about the Shanshu other than if Angel became human, it would perhaps complicate Buffy/Spike. Spike wants Buffy 100% to himself in terms of whom she has romantic feelings for – Spike knew he could go be with Buffy but he simply assumed she still has some feelings for Angel and she may have even more feelings for Angel if Angel became human.I believe Spike would have wanted to be human for Buffy. He got his soul back for her, to be the man that she could love. And yes if he couldn't have it then I'm sure he wouldn't want Angel to have it either. But in my mind he really wanted it for himself first.

Sorry I'm not just disagreeing with everything you say to be difficult! Just I see it differently, but it's all opinions, and we all see things in a different way :)

kana
06-03-13, 12:40 PM
I suppose my main point of contention is that if the fight in Destiny is just about Buffy then why were so much many other subject matters brought up, such as destiny and moral superiority etc? Personally I think it renders both characters rather superficial if their entire life purpose is to be with Buffy.

I mean for starters, for Angel, he was fighting demons and vampires and saving souls, subseqent to breaking up with Buffy and prior to knowing about the Shanshu.

I agree with Nikki that Angel seemed surprised that Spike won the fight. I think Angel was insecure about his place as soon as he found out Spike got a soul, but I still think he believed it was his destiny otherwise his conversation with Gunn near the end of the conversation makes little sense.


What if it means I'm not the one?

MikeB
02-04-13, 12:10 AM
Nikki


In my opinion it wasn’t because of the Shanshu that Angel didn't tell the gang about Spike but because he didn't want them to like and include Spike in the gang. Angel thought Spike was dust in the Hellmouth and he had about no reason to think Spike would be brought back to life. Angel is being petty and/or it’s because of the ‘Shanshu’ thing.


[Angel] never completed trusted [Spike] either, even with a soul. This is another thread topic, but I don’t think this is true.


My quote: “Angel was bothered that Spike beat him for the Cup. I’m not sure he was actually surprised.”

I think he was very surprised. It’s ambiguous.


I saw that it called into question how much he really wanted to become human, as remember he gave it back in IWRY. In Angel’s mind, if he’s Shanshued that means he’s redeemed by the PTB. Even if he doesn’t want to be human (which I consider he does if only to be able to be with Buffy), he certainly wants to be redeemed (at least this was still true in AtS s5).


Also that he was very comfortable in his office in the sky, not out fighting as much. Spike was incorporeal. Angel had done far more fighting post-“Chosen” (7.22) than Spike had.


The vampire line is supposed to get a bit weaker the further down it goes. Nothing in the Buffyverse suggests this is true.


* Spike didn’t want the Shanshu more than Angel did.


* Spike beat Angel because Spike is a better fighter than Angel is.


I believe Spike would have wanted to be human for Buffy. Spike likes being the vampire. He likes the power. He knows that Buffy likes some darkness in her men. He knows the Buffy/Riley relationship went downhill after Riley lost his “superpowers”. If Spike wanted to be human, he would have found out how to be human and became human.


Sorry I'm not just disagreeing with everything you say to be difficult! Just I see it differently, but it's all opinions, and we all see things in a different way If we agreed on everything, there’d be no point in debating each other. :)



kana


I suppose my main point of contention is that if the fight in Destiny is just about Buffy then why were so much many other subject matters brought up, such as destiny and moral superiority etc? Spike was also still unhappy with Angel over the Drusilla thing, but they weren’t fighting over Dru.


Personally I think it renders both characters rather superficial if their entire life purpose is to be with Buffy. For Angel, see BtVS S8. For Spike, see post-BtVS S8.


I mean for starters, for Angel, he was fighting demons and vampires and saving souls, subseqent to breaking up with Buffy and prior to knowing about the Shanshu. The perfect happiness clause rendered him unable to ‘be’ with Buffy.

Nikki
02-04-13, 03:09 PM
Angel thought Spike was dust in the Hellmouth and he had about no reason to think Spike would be brought back to life. Angel is being petty and/or it’s because of the ‘Shanshu’ thing.
Spike had his soul for a year before dying in the Hellmouth.. Angel never mentioned it in that time?

Also the ATS gang know he took that amulet to wear in the fight in Sunnydale, he didn’t come back and explain why he’s not in that fight? That Spike was playing the part of the hero? Angel was supposed to start a second front in LA. You would assume he’d involve at least Gunn and Wesley in that and explain the plan that Buffy laid out. I just see that considering she was the first line of defence in a war that would certainly affect life in LA not to mention the rest of the world the ATS gang would know more about it and who the players were.

To me, Angel’s problems with Spike have very little to do with the prophecy. He didn’t like the idea that Spike was a good guy and that he wasn’t the only souled vampire. Angel acted very childishly at times.. and Spike brought that out in him more.


In Angel’s mind, if he’s Shanshued that means he’s redeemed by the PTB. Even if he doesn’t want to be human (which I consider he does if only to be able to be with Buffy), he certainly wants to be redeemed (at least this was still true in AtS s5).
I don’t really see Angel and the PTB that way. I think he pretty much despises them, for their part in Cordy’s story, they don’t step in an act to help him ever. I don’t think he wants them to redeem him. I agree he’d like redemption but he knows it’s not about a pat on the shoulder and well done you’ve saved enough lives to be redeemed..

Also what would he do once redeemed? I think Angel knew he couldn’t go back to helpless and weak once he knows what goes bump in the night. There is not going to be one large fight after which there will be no more suffering and he can live as human with Buffy happily ever after.

He was human with Buffy and he turned it down. I can’t buy into the fact that he wants that again.. what’s going to be different this time round?



* Spike didn’t want the Shanshu more than Angel did.
What makes you think that?



* Spike beat Angel because Spike is a better fighter than Angel is.


It’s clear to me from that episode and others that Angel had always beaten Spike when the two fought. An example would be In the Dark where Angel was kicking Spike butt. Also the way their old gang is made up supports that Angel was the head of the family. Even in the flash back in Why we Fight Spike doesn’t put up a fight or argument to Angel’s orders, if he knew he could beat him in a fight then I’m pretty sure the dynamics of the group would be different.

I think the reason Spike won was because he wanted it more and Angel didn’t have the same level of motivation. He’s lost Buffy, he’s lost Cordy.. what is there to fight for at this point?

Once Cordy comes back in Your Welcome and Spike tries to kill her, Angel pulls him off and makes some threat about a re-match, at that point I think the fight would have gone differently.


Spike likes being the vampire. He likes the power. He knows that Buffy likes some darkness in her men. He knows the Buffy/Riley relationship went downhill after Riley lost his “superpowers”. If Spike wanted to be human, he would have found out how to be human and became human.
As much as I love Spike, he’s not a big picture thinker. He generally follows his gut, and I think in this case his motivation was simple:

1. If Angel becomes human maybe he’ll get Buffy instead of Spike..
2. He can still be strong and dark as a human as the bad boy is something that’s in him.. whereas it was never in Riley to start with.

If you don’t think Spike wanted to be human then why do you think he went after the cup?

Bittersweettwit
02-04-13, 09:11 PM
Spike had his soul for a year before dying in the Hellmouth.. Angel never mentioned it in that time?

Just posting to give my two cents... If I remember correctly Spike is a topic of discussion with Buffy at the beginning of Chosen and he seems genuinely surprised / disgruntled in a childish manner to hear that Spike had a soul so that would explain him not mentioning it to the gang in the year preceding Spike using the amulet on the hellmouth :)

MikeB
14-05-13, 01:56 AM
Nikki


Spike had his soul for a year before dying in the Hellmouth.. Angel never mentioned it in that time? We don’t know when Angel knew Spike was re-ensouled. As-is, even if Angel did know Spike was re-ensouled, it’s unlikely he’d ever mention it to the Fang Gang unless Angel wanted Spike’s help in AtS s4.


Also the ATS gang know he took that amulet to wear in the fight in Sunnydale, he didn’t come back and explain why he’s not in that fight? We don’t know what Angel did after he left Buffy. I don’t like to speculate, but Angel simply could have stayed away from Los Angeles and simply told the Fang Gang that he helped in Buffy’s battle. He also could have simply told them Buffy wore the amulet.


Angel was supposed to start a second front in LA. That’s another thread topic, but I reason Buffy wasn’t serious about that – she was using it as an excuse to get Angel to shoo.


To me, Angel’s problems with Spike have very little to do with the prophecy. If Spike got Shanshued, Angel wouldn’t be able to be with Buffy.


He didn’t like the idea that Spike was a good guy and that he wasn’t the only souled vampire. Angel probably considers Spike his true best friend. Angel wasn’t happy that Spike was with Buffy and Buffy had strong feelings for Spike. Were not for Buffy/Spike, Angel would be delighted that Spike was good now.


* Angel was still listening to Whistler in BtVS S8 – Angel doesn’t despise the PTB. The main reason he was working for the PTB is because he considered he could be redeemed by them.


He was human with Buffy and he turned it down. That was due partly to his being told by the Oracles that if he remained human, Buffy would die sooner than she would otherwise.


* Once Spike considered the Shanshu was no longer available to Angel, Spike didn’t care about the Shanshu anymore.


* My quote: “Spike beat Angel because Spike is a better fighter than Angel is.”

I reason Spike’s plan in “In the Dark” (A 1.03) was to get Angel to have a false sense of security so that Spike could capture him and have him tortured. Anyway, after “In the Dark” Spike got relatively a lot stronger and powerful. He kept up with Buffy even though Buffy got a lot stronger and powerful through the years.


Once Cordy comes back in Your Welcome and Spike tries to kill her, Angel pulls him off and makes some threat about a re-match, at that point I think the fight would have gone differently. Illyria after being depowered didn’t challenge Angel again until AtF (if that’s canon). If AtF is canon, Spike is clearly superior to Angel. Angel was likely still juiced up on Hamilton power when we see that Spike was doing just as well in the fight as Angel was – actually, he was doing better given he didn’t have a weapon at the start of the fight and he didn’t have the dragon backing helping him.


As much as I love Spike, he’s not a big picture thinker. Spike very likely simply never got back with Buffy because he knows he can’t be actually long-term unless Buffy becomes immortal.


If you don’t think Spike wanted to be human then why do you think he went after the cup? To prevent Angel from being human.

KingofCretins
14-05-13, 02:36 AM
If Spike got Shanshued, Angel wouldn’t be able to be with Buffy.

Why is that?


Spike very likely simply never got back with Buffy because he knows he can’t be actually long-term unless Buffy becomes immortal.

She's not a jacket, she's not waiting in the closet for him to pick up and put down at his discretion. And, even if she was, Spike can't love her, or even like her all that much, and actually want her to become a vampire -- not in this mythology anyway.


To prevent Angel from being human.

Here, I thought you liked Spike -- but this is a base and low motive to attribute to him. Spike wants the cup because he wants the trials and the reward? There's heroism in that. Purpose, honor, nobility. If he literally would take all that on just to screw Angel, he's a spiteful little twerp, isn't he? And cares much more about hating Angel than liking himself, if he would choose to endure all sorts of trials and such just to screw Angel?

MikeB
04-06-13, 04:15 AM
KingofCretins

* Given the aftermath of BtVS S8, Buffy/Angel is not likely to happen again. Beyond that, the perfect happiness clause is still a problem for Buffy/Angel.


* My quote: Spike very likely simply never got back with Buffy because he knows he can’t be actually long-term unless Buffy becomes immortal.

I didn’t say Spike needs for her to be a vampire.


* For Spike, the Shanshu thing is not about “screwing Angel”; it’s about Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel. Angel being human means there’s no perfect happiness clause and Buffy can be in a ‘normal’ relationship with Angel, in the sunlight with Angel, etc. Spike was already insecure given the whole “Chosen” (7.22) stuff.

For Angel, “Destiny” (A 5.08) is also about Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel.

KingofCretins
04-06-13, 04:26 AM
I can't think of a way to interpret "Destiny" that would make Spike or Angel sound more shallow and banal than it being a proxy Spuffy/Bangel 'shipper war. I mean, hell, if you want to make it about romantic rivalry at least give some credit to the (pardon the phrase) girl in question from the episode's actual flashbacks.

MikeB
02-07-13, 12:14 AM
KingofCretins

* Regarding “Destiny” (A 5.08): The main conflict between Angel and Spike is over their liking the same girls. Drusilla is not in contention: both know she much prefers Spike to Angel and neither Spike nor Angel is currently trying to get back with Dru.

Angel clearly still wanted to be with Buffy and Spike clearly (at least at the time) was going to go be with Buffy again.


* Both Angel and Spike are in ways shallow. As for banality, Angel and Spike were still trying to ‘fight over’ Dru in 1998. Angel in BtVS S8 was still bitter about Buffy/Spike and Buffy’s tendency to ‘shoo Angel away’ to go be with Spike.