"The Champion Awards 2007" Votes

[Pandora's_Box]

"The Champion Awards 2007"

Now it's time to vote for the nominees you choose.
Who are you gonna choose?
The nominees are in no specific order.
PM me your vote, only one name per category.

Let's start with some stastics, number of nominations per season:
Season 1: 07 nominations
Season 2: 08 nominations
Season 3: 04 nominations
Season 4: 12 nominations
Season 5: 29 nominations

And the top nominations per episode:
7 nominations for Not Fade Away
6 nominations for A Hole In The World
3 nominations for I Will Remember You, Hero and Smile Time
2 nominations for Reprise and You're Welcome


And the nominees are...

20. Best Original Music/Song

Angel Theme
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/song1.jpg

Evil Cordy Theme
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/song2.jpg

A Place Called Home
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/song3.jpg

L.A. Song
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/song4.jpg

19. Best Fight

Illarya vs. The Gang (Time Bomb)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/fig1.jpg

Hamilton vs Angel
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/fig2.jpg

Spike vs Angel
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/fig3.jpg

Angelus vs Faith
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/fig4.jpg

18. Best Season

Season 2
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/season1.jpg

Season 4
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/season2.jpg

Season 5
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/season3.jpg

17. Best Guest

Willow
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/gue1.jpg

Jasmine
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/gue2.jpg

Faith
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/gue3.jpg

Gwen
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/gue4.jpg

16. Best Villain

Lilah
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/vil1.jpg

Lindsey
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/vil2.jpg

Angelus
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/vil3.jpg

Darla
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/vil4.jpg

15. Best Moment - Comedy

Spike/Puppet-Angel Fight
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/moC1.jpg

Cordy/Wesley playing Buffy/Angel
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/moC2.jpg

Cordy/Wes/Gunn We Are The Champions
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/moC3.jpg

Angel Dancing
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/moC4.jpg

14. Best Moment - Drama

Fred Dying
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/moD1.jpg

Last Seconds
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/moD2.jpg

Last Scene
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/moD3.jpg

Angel Trying To Kill Wesley
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/moD4.jpg

13. Best Kiss

Cordy/Doyle - Hero
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/kis1.jpg

Fred/Wesley - Smile Time
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/kis2.jpg

Cordy/Angel - You're Welcome
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/kis3.jpg

Buffy/Angel - I Will Remember You
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/kis4.jpg

12. Best Death

Wesley
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dea1.jpg

Fred
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dea2.jpg

Doyle
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dea3.jpg

Darla
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dea4.jpg

11. Best Style

Lornette Fred
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/sty1.jpg

Darla-1898
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/sty2.jpg

Illarya
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/sty3.jpg

Princess Cordy
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/sty4.jpg

10. Best Set

Hyperion Hotel
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/set1.jpg

Caritas
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/set2.jpg

Wolfram & Hart (Season 5)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/set3.jpg

09. Best Writings

A Hole In The World
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/wri1.jpg

Reprise
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/wri2.jpg

Not Fade Away
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/wri3.jpg

Shells
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/wri4.jpg

The Magic Bullet
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/wri5.jpg

Origin
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/wri6.jpg

08. Best Direction

Waiting In The Wings
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dir1.jpg

Not Fade Away
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dir2.jpg

A Hole In The World
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dir3.jpg

Awakening
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dir4.jpg

Soul Purpose
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dir5.jpg

Time Bomb
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/dir6.jpg

07. Best Actress - Comedy

Mercedes McNab
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActressC1.jpg

Charisma Carpenter
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActressC2.jpg

Amy Acker
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActressC3.jpg

06. Best Actor - Comedy

Alexis Denisof
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActorC1.jpg

Andy Hallett
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActorC2.jpg

David Boreanaz
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActorC3.jpg

05. Best Actress - Drama

Stephanie Romanov
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActressD1.jpg

Julie Benz
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActressD2.jpg

Amy Acker
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActressD3.jpg

04. Best Actor - Drama

Vincent Kartheiser
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActorD1.jpg

David Boreanaz
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActorD2.jpg

Alexis Denisof
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/ActorD3.jpg

03. Best Episode - Comedy

Harm's Way
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Comedy1.jpg

Smile Time
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Comedy2.jpg

Life Of A Party
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Comedy3.jpg

Spin The Bottle
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Comedy4.jpg

02. Best Episode - Drama

Not Fade Away
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Drama2.jpg

Hero
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Drama4.jpg

I Will Remember You
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Drama3.jpg

A Hole In The World
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Drama1.jpg

01. Best Episode

Orpheus
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Episode1.jpg

A Hole In The World
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Episode2.jpg

You're Welcome
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Episode3.jpg

Reprise
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Episode5.jpg

Not Fade Away
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f93/panbox002/panbox_buffywall_01/Episode4.jpg

PM me your vote, only one name per category.

[BlasterBoy]

Wow, these nominees are amazing! A bit disappointed at the Season 5 love, once again! But, I love these. Amazing :heart:

[Jenni Lou]

I just want to say how happy I am that Awakening direction made it through! I voted for it and didn't think it would....Sean Astin did an amazing job!

[Nina]

I agree with BlasterBoy, I think the nominees are fantastic.
I'm really suprised that Darla in 1898 a nominee is for the best make-up. I love her clothes and hair so much. But I thought that it would never make the nominees in a serie full of fantastic make-up. *yeeh*

[Nostalgia]

I love the nominees.. cannot wait to vote! :)

[Ehlwyen]

Please, lets not spam in here. Feel free to discuss the virtues and weakness of each of the nominees. :2party:

Gorgeous nominee awards Pandora's_Box!

[skinless]

When it came to Buffy I knew I wanted to Vote for this and that Etc, Etc, Etc, But in this one there are so many Catergories that could go either way that I dont know who to vote for.

[sherrilina]

Wow, these nominees are amazing! A bit disappointed at the Season 5 love, once again! But, I love these. Amazing :heart:
Me too--blech, my two least fave seasons nominated for Best season! :( Plus I'm just so bummed I missed out on the nominations, period! You didn't PM me this time Clement! :(

Oh well, at least they're pretty good for the most part--and I'm also happy Awakening got in there, lol! ;)

But seriously, how did Spike's monologue mocking Angel from In the Dark NOT get nominated for best comedic moment?! Or Angel's fabulous singing?! :p

Man is Angel good....some of these are really hard to pick! Lot of good villains on Angel in particular...

[NileQT87]

I just want to say how happy I am that Awakening direction made it through! I voted for it and didn't think it would....Sean Astin did an amazing job!

sean astin directed "soulless", not "awakening".

"awakening", while being a total tribute to "raiders of the lost ark" actually had some very weak direction (not that it's easy to beat steven spielberg, but it was one of the worst shot episodes of the season even for the show--imo, outside of wesley invoking dr. henry "indiana" jones, jr. making a booby trap mistake, the other best part of the episode would be david's fading, evil angelus laughter into the credits).

maybe you were thinking sean astin did "awakening" because he was in "goonies", which also was inspired by "raiders of the lost ark". but no, that wasn't his episode. he even did an awesome INTERVIEW about "soulless" (which is so bloody awesome!). he didn't just come in to pump out a random episode of television, but actually had something to say about it.

"soulless" was totally stylized and amazing (and yes, sean did an amazing job). my favorite camera move in "soulless" was the tilting air shot into angelus' cage that slowly moved towards him.

*EDIT* sean astin did an interview, not a commentary. MY IDIOT!

[Jenni Lou]

sean astin directed "soulless", not "awakening".


:doh: I'm so stupid and you are so right. I've gotten those two episodes mixed up since they first aired. What is wrong with me?! *smacks forehead*

And there's a commentary track? Did I ever listen to that? I would think I would have but I don't recall doing so.

Anyway, thanks for the correction and the info. I totally nominated the wrong ep and should have doubled check knowing I always confused the two. :rolleyes:


But I am one those few who happen to have really liked Awakening. ;) Sorry. :( :p

[sherrilina]

sean astin directed "soulless", not "awakening".

"awakening", while being a total tribute to "raiders of the lost ark" actually had some very weak direction (not that it's easy to beat steven spielberg, but it was one of the worst shot episodes of the season even for the show--imo, outside of wesley invoking dr. henry "indiana" jones, jr. making a booby trap mistake, the other best part of the episode would be david's fading, evil angelus laughter into the credits).

maybe you were thinking sean astin did "awakening" because he was in "goonies", which also was inspired by "raiders of the lost ark". but no, that wasn't his episode. he even did a commentary track for "soulless" (which is so bloody awesome!). he didn't just come in to pump out a random episode of television, but he actually cared about it enough to watch some of the show before he did the episode and did a commentary for it. sean always struck me as a good guy.

"soulless" was totally stylized and amazing (and yes, sean did an amazing job). my favorite camera move in "soulless" was the tilting air shot into angelus' cage that slowly moved towards him.
But on the other hand the surprise at the end was good--I mean, I knew it was a dream from the outset from hearing it online, but I didn't realize where the dream had begun--it's very cleverly done in the moment of transition....

Though I don't know how much that has to do with direction...*shrugs*

Anyway, thanks for the correction and the info. I totally nominated the wrong ep and should have doubled check knowing I always confused the two. :rolleyes:

But enough people must have liked it for it to have been nominated, right? Or were there few enough nods that it didn't matter?

[NileQT87]

ack, sorry. not commentary. interview. lapse in memory mixing up an old interview with thinking it was audio (for some strange reason i had his voice in my head when i read the interview--did i mention i read this several years ago?). my doink.

IGNFF: And you're definitely diversifying, especially with your recent directing gigs. I enjoyed your episode of Angel and thought it was very well done…

ASTIN: Oh, thank you so much! That's a very good compliment, and I'll take that compliment…

IGNFF: Well, I give it freely.

ASTIN: It was harder for me, that episode, than I thought it was going to be. My work in it, I think… I got better in the learning curve throughout the episode. But I know that if they get picked up for another season and they let me play with them again, as they've indicated they would, then my work will be even better next time.

IGNFF: Usually when a director comes into an establish, arc-based show like that, the direction of episodes within that arc tend to have a certain workmanlike, formulaic style to them. Your episode, on the other hand, tended to have quite a bit of style to it.

ASTIN: My feeling is that I approached it with such passion and such determination, that I think certain members of the cast and crew kind of appreciated it, and I think honored the fact that I was approaching it in that way. It's a long marathon for people on a show. They always say that "the guest-director is double-parked," but I really care about what I'm doing while I'm doing it. A good friend of mine has given me his working definition of power, which is being really focused on doing what you're doing while you're doing it. That's how I feel. I didn't really have much time with the editor, or any time really, and my grand illusion – or delusion – of generating a lot of editing notes for them didn't happen, and so I basically provided them with the footage and they assembled the show in my absence, and so I was a little discouraged to see that there were even more stylistic things that I did that didn't get in there. I haven't quite finished mourning the loss of those things yet. But I really appreciate your comment, regardless.

IGNFF: What was the learning curve, going into a situation like that?

ASTIN: Well, it was pretty steep. I mean, it was like a right angle, really.

IGNFF: The last TV you had done was what, Perversions of Science?

ASTIN: No, I think I did 100 Deeds for Eddie McDowd since then. I did observe on West Wing and Six Feet Under and Family Law, and a TV show my brother did called The First Years, with Tim Busfield, and I followed Charlie Haid around on The Court. I invested a great deal of time on following world-class television directors around and studying them. So I think I had the benefit of all that recent experience going for me when I stepped into the chair there on Angel. But mostly it's really a writer and actor's medium I think, largely, most of the time. And certainly on a show like that, the edict is to service Joss's vision, and Joss wasn't really there that much – he was somewhere else – so it's a difficult and exciting challenge to try and duplicate, or at least in some way honor, the creativity of the creator of a show. But also there are very narrow lanes for the directors on a show like that. If you're not really close to Joss and they don't know you very well and you aren't fully into the culture of the show totally, there are narrow lanes. You know what your job is. It's a very proscribed kind of circumstance. So for me, trying to figure out where I could put my imprimatur there, and all the while fulfilling my obligation to not derail the train that they've spent years getting going – and also operating within the very narrow time constraints of broadcast television is very painful… I wanted to do so many more things than I was able to do, so dying 15-20 creative deaths each day and trying not to be discouraged and trying to have 30 creative births beyond those – that was emotionally traumatic.

IGNFF: Was there ever a point where they were comfortable enough with you that they let you lay a little of your own track?

ASTIN: No, I don't think so. But I don't think that impugns me in any way. I just think that all the people who would be in a position to do that – the writers were busy writing their next thing… they just needed to make sure that it wasn't going to get screwed up. I mean, maybe with the actors a little bit. I gained a little bit of confidence with some of them. Vincent (Kartheiser) in particular, and I think David Boreanaz were responsive to my suggestions and ideas and thoughts, and I was wholly admiring of what they were doing. Alexis Denisof, I think, is a real talent. But in terms of the show – Kelly Manners, the producer of the show, in my heart of hearts I felt like he wanted me to succeed. And I think he was forgiving of me in ways that it was important he was forgiving of me – in terms of not crushing my spirit – and I think he went above and beyond the call of duty to help me learn the culture of the show. I mean, I had observed David Greenwalt for an episode and Tim Minnear for a couple of episodes, so I was in the anteroom of the Angel family for some time before I stepped in, but I don't think it would have been appropriate for them to say, "You have carte blanche to do what you want" or "You have the latitude to steer this in your own direction." I had the latitude that a visiting director on an episodic hour drama gets – as much as any director would, I would think… I just didn't take liberties or do more than I might have wanted to, because I didn't think it was appropriate. So it's more a question of how I tried to assert myself and learn what was achievable and what wasn't. You know?

IGNFF: But on a lot of hour dramas, you can get away with not being too stylish. On a show like Angel, if you're not stylish enough, it comes off as flat – because it is a highly stylized show.

ASTIN: I think Ross (Berryman), the cinematographer, deserves a great deal of credit, because it's his job to hold the line on the visual look of the show. And as fast as I moved and as many setups as I wanted to get and as much as I pushed pushed pushed to get stuff done, I think he did a really good job of keeping intact the look of the show. And then tonally, the young writers were there, and would kind of – if I had a slight misstep tonally, or I wasn't getting something as it was intended, I felt like they would have questions about that, and that helped me too. I mean, there is a lot of support as a guest director on a show. A lot of support for me, and a lot of concern that the show come off good. I take the credit for doing my job well, but I also have to recognize all the various components that went into enabling that style that you alluded to.

IGNFF: Who brought you into Angel?

ASTIN: David Greenwalt, initially, and Tim Minnear went to bat for me and Kelly Manners approved me.

IGNFF: Had you known David and Tim prior to that?

ASTIN: I met David through Dan Petrie, Jr., who's one of my mentors and lifelong friend from when he directed me in Toy Soldiers when I was 20 or something. And so in a social setting he introduced me to Greenwalt, and I knew him for a couple of years. Then when I got back from Lord of the Rings, I just said, "Greenie, I want to direct Angel." And he said, "Well you'd have to come and hang out and learn the show a little bit." And I said, "Well, I'm committed to doing it. I'm serious about it, and I'm willing to do that." So he invited me in, and I accepted the invitation, and ultimately it yielded a great opportunity for me – my first network hour drama directing gig – so I will forever be grateful to David Greenwalt for that.

[Pandora's_Box]

But enough people must have liked it for it to have been nominated, right? Or were there few enough nods that it didn't matter?
I don't remember the number of votes right now, but I can tell you I voted for it. Call me stupid but I didn't found out it was a dream, so I found that episode, both writings and direction very surprising and visually sophisticated, the man with the words on his skin, the Indiana Jones traps, the ball of light...Very epic, plus it gives an interesting perspective on how things could have been and how they finally are at the end of season 4. And Angel's laugh is sooooo vicious, I like vicious!

[selenspuffy]

Nominees are great:) Sure, results will be too!
I hadn't watch Ats the time I started watching Buffy and honestly I wasn't expecting such a fantastic tv series, I'm addicted now! I'm eager to finish every every episode, I couldn't yet:( but I will, soon!:)

[Nostalgia]

I'm banking of "A Hole In The World" beating all of its nominees.

[BlasterBoy]

I'm banking of "A Hole In The World" beating all of its nominees.

UNFORTUNATELY, you're probably right. That episode IS extremely overrated ;) :p

Sean Astin did an awesome job on "Soulless", never really thought that there was anything great about the direction in "Awakening" :s

[Jenni Lou]

ack, sorry. not commentary. interview. lapse in memory mixing up an old interview with thinking it was audio (for some strange reason i had his voice in my head when i read the interview--did i mention i read this several years ago?). my doink.

Thanks for the interview! I actually read that when the ep was aired but I appreciate it nonetheless! I'm glad I wasn't going crazy wondering how I missed a commentary track like that. :lol:

Too bad Astin didn't get a chance to direct an ep in s5 too.

[Nostalgia]

UNFORTUNATELY, you're probably right. That episode IS extremely overrated ;) :p

Wow.. I don't think you have ANY way of backing that up. :p That's equivalent to saying The Body is a mediocre episode.

[BlasterBoy]

Wow.. I don't think you have ANY way of backing that up. :p That's equivalent to saying The Body is a mediocre episode.

Um, I do ;)

A Hole In The World has many, many cheesy lines. It's cheesy. Very, very cheesy. Like, "Two words: Winifred Burkle. Go team." :lol: The Body showed death like it really is: scary, depressing, strange, unknowing. It had no music and showed how much everyone cared for her. In AHITW, it did not have that realism and fantastic writing. It had fantastic acting, but that's not enough.

I liked the episode, an 8.5 or 9, but nothing more.

[Pandora's_Box]

"Why can't I stay? Why can't I stay?"
For me, the better line of Angel...

[Nostalgia]

I agree.. A Hole In The World was so important because it signified a side of death that the Buffyverse never really delved into.. the sight of watching a person slowly die.. without any way of helping someone. Call me ballsy, but I have to say that is almost scarier and more sad than the Body in some ways.. and I don't see how you can say the episode is cheesy. Seeing one of the most important persons of the Angelverse die in the hands of her lover, is very very dark and almost beautiful in a way. The writing in terms of handling the situation is fantastic, the direction is phenomenal (between the forest scene, and the luminescence from the lighting).. it showed Angel for what the show is really about.. sadness and despair.

[Pandora's_Box]

Ouah, couldn't agree much.
I prefer The Body cause the whole epiode is just a master piece both in realisation and writings, it shows the death how any other show and movie never did, no argue on this. I couldn't have words enough to tell my love for The Body.
But the last scene of A Hole In The World is amazing and so so strong.
the sight of watching a person slowly die.. without any way of helping someone
Exactly, probably the most heart-breaking scene of the Buffyverse.
Cheesy? The hell no! Just picture yourself with your mother in your arms, about to die (I hope she will never of course) with nothing you can do to stop it...Too much hard and painful to call it cheesy. Hope I'm not out of line.

[BlasterBoy]

I hear you guys, and I love the last scene. But, this death was wasted. Fred did not need to die. They did not need to wipe out every single female lead.

And also, I think the last scene is heartbreaking because of Amy Acker. As well as when she stands up and goes to the science lab. Those two scenes are amazing, as well as the one line, "There's a hole in the world. Seems like we ought to have known". I love 'em. Amy Acker is fantastic. But, the episode, as a whole, has a lot of cheesy lines and most of all, it wasn't needed. I also don't think it lived up to what the Jossverse set up deaths like. "The Body" was a chunk of realism and fantastic writing, no cheesiness, the death was needed so much, and the acting was the best anyone has ever been.

In AHITW, the only people that come close to the acting in The Body are Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof. More people are effected.

[Jenni Lou]

I do quite like AHITW. Not my fave ep of all time but it's ranks kinda high on my list, I bet.

But, this death was wasted. Fred did not need to die. They did not need to wipe out every single female lead.

But Illyria was really neat and I think that character drove much of the final arc. We got some really fantastic stuff at the end of Angel and if it were Fred rather than Illyria...I don't know....it would take away much of the intensity and immediacy of it.

And it's not like Fred died because she was weak or ineffectual or had it coming. Personally, I thought it was an interesting twist that Knox chose her to be Illyria's vessel. It really helped pull the whole seasonal arc into perspective that what was happening at Wolfram & Hart was quite possibly something Angel and Co. couldn't stop, even if they were the head honchos.

[Nostalgia]

Well, sometimes like Joss says.. it's just cool to kill people 8-)

It wasn't necessary to the show (although Jenni Lou made a great point.. Fred would have a hard time surviving in the end), but it was necessary for the drama and the pain at the end of the season.. If anything, Wesley's death was way more useless.. he could have certainly helped.. but they killed him off as well.. as for Anya's.. that was clearly said by Joss that he wanted to just kill someone for the sake of killing someone. Do you not agree with this concept BlasterBoy?

[sherrilina]

Well, sometimes like Joss says.. it's just cool to kill people 8-)

It wasn't necessary to the show (although Jenni Lou made a great point.. Fred would have a hard time surviving in the end), but it was necessary for the drama and the pain at the end of the season.. If anything, Wesley's death was way more useless.. he could have certainly helped.. but they killed him off as well.. as for Anya's.. that was clearly said by Joss that he wanted to just kill someone for the sake of killing someone. Do you not agree with this concept BlasterBoy?
Wes's death was b/c the show was ending, and he wanted to kill off someone major--IMO Wes's death was the most heartbreakingly done (even more so than Fred's, just b/c of his whole "I've missed you" line, etc....damn!), and I'm glad it happened since the series was ending anyway--I don't think he was all that happy alive (though I guess it doesn't matter anyway thanks to what we see in Season Sux! ;)).

I actually hated Illyria and would have much preferred to see Fred, though it did have a big impact on the tone of the end of the season.

I think Anya's death was the most useless (and annoying in how useless and pointless it was)....

I like AHITW and think it is an excellent (if at times a tad cheesy) epp, though I don't at all think it's the best epp, and I sincerely hope it doesn't win!

[ShinyFirefly]

Me too--blech, my two least fave seasons nominated for Best season! :(

Nyah, my two favorites are! :p GREAT bunch of nominees, I sometimes had a hard time choosing. Except for best villain - go Lilah!

[Nostalgia]

Lindsey for me

Wes's death was b/c the show was ending, and he wanted to kill off someone major--IMO Wes's death was the most heartbreakingly done (even more so than Fred's, just b/c of his whole "I've missed you" line, etc....damn!), and I'm glad it happened since the series was ending anyway--I don't think he was all that happy alive (though I guess it doesn't matter anyway thanks to what we see in Season Sux! ).

Man, you are just a HUGE advocate against the comic seasons aren't you? After one issue you've already determined that you think it sucks?

[Pandora's_Box]

But, this death was wasted. Fred did not need to die
Thanks for saying that cause it is exactly the major point that makes this episode an high standard. This is exactly because she didn't need to/deserved to die that her death is so unacceptable. What's the point of killing someone when it's acceptable and okay, because it isn't in the real life, every personal death is felt like unacceptable and unfair and as The Body fans as we both are that's also what made Joyce death so harsh. Sure her death was part "useful" to make Buffy become a "mother" and an adult, but the death itself wasn't fair. As for almsot every death in the Buffyverse if you think closely.

Jenny: she just confessed her love for Giles when she died.
Angel (season 2): Killed at the end of Surprise (as Angelus wasn't Angel anymore) after his first night of love with Buffy and killed in Becoming while he just became Angel back.
Joyce: I covered that part.
Buffy: Was it fair that she sacrifice herself?
Tara: Again obvious, she was just getting back with Willow.
Spike: For the first time of his life, he was finally loving someone.
Doyle: When the possibility of sharing love with Cordelia appeared, he had to sacrifice himself.
Darla: First in Reunion, she was just begining to accept her condition as a human and shes sired and in Lullaby, she finally did something good in her life and had to sacrifice herself to make it live.
Cordelia: Talking about unfair, infected by a demon just before she can tell Angel she loved her.
And finally Fred.

As you can see, and Joss didn't invented something here, to feel in a movie or a tv show the real experience of death, they have to make the death the more unacceptable and unfair to be the more close to reality.
The two exceptions here, as it been said by Nostalgia and Jenni are Wesley and Anya's death, first of all because a good finale as to have some part of grief and secondly because unlike all of the above, they were at the end of their journey, Anya because living a thousand years, she lived all that she could and Wesley because losing Fred, he had no reason to live.
So to quote you again, you can't blame that ep saying Fred didn't need to die cause that's the case for almost every death in the Buffyverse and definetely in life

[Jenni Lou]

So to quote you again, you can't blame that ep saying Fred didn't need to die cause that's the case for almost every death in the Buffyverse and definetely in life

That's wonderfully said.

And to add, this is a dramatic median and often times death in film and tv always occur in the midst of some big revelation or turning point for the character that dies. It makes the death more intense and heart-wrenching. Simply, it's a writer's device.

Secondly, in the Jossverse we all know that they love to bring on the tears and misery just when things may be looking up. They did it time and time again to us and we just went back for more. Joss just loves to take things away from us. Not that I blame him ... because he gave me some truly awesome tv experiences. :)

[BlasterBoy]

The main reason for my not ADORING AHITW is because of cheesy writing and killing off every female lead.

Anya's death was pointless, yes, but it was the end of the series. Hence Anya and Spike had to die. Spike got some closure though, Anya didn't. That's why I didn't like Anya's death, because you got no point in which anybody ever feels pain because she died, except for that 15 seconds when Andrew tells Xand man she dies.

Anyways, back on topic! :D

Now, I think AHITW is a great episode. I don't think it's a perfect episode or top 10 material though. I really, really like the episode, but no, I don't adore and think it's one of the best.

Tara's death was needed for Willow's arc to grow.
Lindsey's was for Lorne.
Cordelia's was, yes, wasted.
Joyce was for Buffy.
Buffy was for Buffy. (if someone needs explanation, ask :p)
Doyle's was for Cordy.
Spike was for the end of the series and closure.
Anya's was pointless.
Darla was for Conner and her own growth.
Angel didn't die, imo.
Jenny's was partly for Giles, but semi-pointless.
And Fred's was partly for Wes, so yes. Not as pointless for others. I'm mostly pissed because they killed all the female leads :p :lol:

[Jenni Lou]

Jenny's was partly for Giles, but semi-pointless.

I always looked at Jenny's death as done for the sake of raising the stakes. To show that Angelus was really tearing into the very fabric of the Scooby core. It made him a more nefarious nemesis and his actions became more real because he hit so close to home. Because he could kill lots of random people we never knew. But killing Jenny...that was meant to show that Angelus was a true enemy. So I never thought her death was pointless. If anything, it's something that absolutely had to happen in order for the audience to really realize that Angelus needed to be stopped or else he would kill them all if he had the chance. Otherwise, what is he? Just a vampire. Perhaps a super-charged with menace, but just a vampire nonetheless.


That's how I always saw it anyway.


For a thread about votes there sure is some good convo in here though. :D I'm glad it's not just full of spam. 'Cause that would be bad. :p

[BlasterBoy]

I always looked at Jenny's death as done for the sake of raising the stakes. To show that Angelus was really tearing into the very fabric of the Scooby core. It made him a more nefarious nemesis and his actions became more real because he hit so close to home. Because he could kill lots of random people we never knew. But killing Jenny...that was meant to show that Angelus was a true enemy. So I never thought her death was pointless. If anything, it's something that absolutely had to happen in order for the audience to really realize that Angelus needed to be stopped or else he would kill them all if he had the chance. Otherwise, what is he? Just a vampire. Perhaps a super-charged with menace, but just a vampire nonetheless.

Oh, I totally forgot about that! Yes, Giles and to raise the stakes. And Joss even said that. Oops, sorry! :o I thought it made Giles more bad ass. Like, Wesley in "Bad Girls" is like old Giles, scared to fight. But, Giles got more tough at the end of Season 2 with being tortured and going to kill Angelus, etc.

Yes, this thread as many good convos, even if not about Angel :p

Oops, sorry, this post was all about Buffy.....

[Thomas]

And Fred's was partly for Wes, so yes. Not as pointless for others. I'm mostly pissed because they killed all the female leads :p :lol:Fred's death didn't only effect Wesley. Gunn and Lorne were also effected by Fred's death. Lorne became darker, I don't think he would have agreed to killing Lindsey if he wasn't in that dark place. It helped Gunn get back to his roots.

The didn't really kill of the female leads, Amy Acker was still around. It's not like she left the show. If you meant female lead character, well, Harmony was a main character from 'Underneath' on. So, there was still a female character. Besides, ANGEL has always been male dominated, just like BtVS was female dominated.

[BlasterBoy]

Harmony was a character for comedy only. It wasn't even like Cordy in early Buffy, cause she had drama (The Wish, Lover's Walk). And even if a show is male dominant, it doesn't only have males. Like, with Buffy. It does not only have female leads :lol:

Guys, I still love AHITW! :lol: Sorry if that was unclear. I just pointed out the bad, imo. Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof are fabulous, Spike's love for Fred, Lorne punching Eve (she deserved it, that bitch!), the Caveman vs. Astronaut metaphor was fabulous, etc. I still love it :lol:

[Pandora's_Box]

In fact you're just sad they killed your sweet little Fred, you crying baby :lol:

[Pandora's_Box]

You have until Wednesday to vote, if you haven't hurry!

[Kold]

Ah, crap. Inside Out got no nominations except for the music... that's just an injustice. :(

[Pandora's_Box]

Votes are closed.