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MikeB
06-02-12, 09:30 AM
I read some posts that said that Dru isn't a good fighter and that she only beat Kendra because of Dru's hyno-beams. So, I'd like to defend Dru.

In the episode after "What's My Line Part II" (2.10?) -- I think it's "Ted" --, Xander has this interesting conversation about the Captain and Tynele (spelling?) basically arguing whether the man or the woman ultimately had the power and/or ultimately was the boss.

Spike followed Dru's advice and orders and so did Angel. Spike and Angel did what Dru wanted them to do. It's Dru's rising that prompts Kendra to be in Sunnydale. The only other event that warranted such a thing was Acathla.

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As for fighting, Dru clearly fought Kendra and Spike. With Kendra, Dru easily overpowers Kendra before using the hyno-beams on her. Kendra only got one hit on Dru. And Dru seemed to want to stash Kendra’s throat so that Buffy would be blamed for the murder.With Spike, she was beating Spike until she got distracted by Angel's pulling out the sword from Acathla.

Post-healed Season 2 Dru would have beaten Season 1 Darla and very likely would have beaten at-least Season 1 and 2 Angel. Even in "Reunion" (A 2.10?), Dru pretty much beat Angel. She simply didn't want to kill him and so left.

_________

Darla when supped up with power from Connor killed some people on a bus and it seems that was supposed to be a big indicator of Darla’s new power. Drusilla in “Crush” (5.14) killed six people on a train while they were all still in their seats and Buffy assumed that multiple vampires had to have done that.

___________________

Anyways, I've always considered Drusilla to be the most powerful female vampire in the Buffyverse.

She gets visions, she's super strong and deadly, she killed Kendra who relatively easily whupped Angel, and she was able to get Spike and Angel to do what she wanted them to do.

Stoney
06-02-12, 02:39 PM
I don't think Angel followed Dru, he listened to her visions if sense was there but he and Darla were at the top of the tree. Also, the fight when Angel was pulling the sword from Acathla between Spike and Dru was more of a tussle for physical dominance from Spike's pov rather than a fists and fangs brawl. He was trying to overpower her not kill her.

Having said all that I always got the impression we were supposed to think of all four of the Scourge as powerful vamps. Dru's strength beyond her natural vamp boost, was the thrall I think but I don't think that fact weakens her, it is just an additional weapon.

As an aside, I found it disappointing how easily she killed Kendra as Spike was supposed to be the Slayer of Slayers and loved the challenge of fighting them. This seems less impressive when his girlfriend takes 10 secs to Crocodile Dundee them!!

MikeB
07-02-12, 11:12 AM
I'll eventually get to your post, Stoney .




My quote: That’s according to the biased opinions of Angel and Wesley. For actual reactions in the Buffyverse, Drusilla is taken far more seriously than Angel or Spike.

TimeTravellingBunny : Only in your version of events. No, it’s according to canon. Giles and Kendra’s Watcher took Dru far more seriously than Angel and Spike. The Scoobies thought that Buffy could hold Angel off until Willow’s spell worked. Other than Buffy’s willingness to kill Angel, Angel wasn’t taken that seriously. Spike was taken seriously mainly for his ability to kill Buffy (and on AtS, Angel). On AtS, Angelus being back isn’t seen as much of a big deal other than the Fang Gang mentally being able to kill him. Wesley and Cordelia pretty much freak out when they discover that Drusilla’s back in town.

vampmogs
07-02-12, 11:36 AM
Angelus was documented as being the "worst vampire on record." Around Valentimes Day Giles suggested Buffy, the Slayer, to stay off the streets for a few nights because of him. The Master called him the most vicious creature he had ever met. Darla called him legendary and stated that nobody could match him. All it took was hearing he was back for Faith to break out of jail. Angel tells Lindsay he's the greatest mass murderer he's ever met etc. I could go on. So no, it's certainly not "canon" that Dru was more dangerous and/or more feared than Angelus. The hype surrounding Angelus is undeniable and unmatched by any other vampire.

The hierarchy amongst the Fang Gang was quite clear. Dru deferred to Angelus and considered him "daddy." When slaughtering the gypsies she feared Angelus would be "very cross" with them that they had a manslaughter without him, but Darla instructs her to keep killing -- "Go on, kill things!" It was quite cleat Dru obeyed Angelus and Darla ("daddy" and "grandmother") and we see her immediately defer to Angelus again in Sunnydale and Darla in LA.

This idea that Dru was the most feared and most powerful vampire and controlled the likes of Angelus or Darla is, quite frankly, absurd to me. It bares little resemblance to the group dynamic I watched or what is clearly stated in the text.

Vampire in Rug
07-02-12, 11:41 PM
Mike, I've had this discussion with you before. If you want I can bring over the transcripts from the AtS episodes where Drusilla clearly defers to Darla, asks her opinions, seeks her permission etc. I've posted those transcripts before and you dismissed them and said "Yeah, well maybe Drusilla was only letting Darla think she was in charge so that she could manipulate her!" That's a load of bull, and so is the idea that Drusilla was bossing Angel and Spike around in BtVS season 2. Anyone who has seen the show knows that Angelus was in charge. I'd have Darla and Spike tie for second place (some would put Darla above Spike) and Drusilla is clearly at the bottom. She's the baby of the family. They've clearly got some kind of affection for her, but she can wear on their nerves and hers is the opinion that's taken the least seriously. She's still a powerful vampire in her own right. I don't understand why you need to elevate her above all the other vampires just because she's a favorite of yours.

Vampire in Rug
08-02-12, 12:25 AM
Screw it, I'm gonna post examples anyway.



Dru: "Angelus is gone on away. Where is he?"
Darla grabs a hold of the Gypsy's neck: "Drusilla, the camp - go on - kill things!"
Dru: "He shall be very cross if he finds we had a lovely mass slaughter without him."
Darla closes her eyes for a moment: "He'll join us soon. Now do as you're told."
Dru licks one of her fingers and nods: "Okay."


Here we have Darla issuing orders to Drusilla and Drusilla being worried about upsetting Angelus.


Darla: "In that wagon is your family. Your wife and daughters will die tonight without my protection. (Strokes the man's cheek) but if you'll do as I say, your family can live."
Spike, in vamp face, blood on his chin, steps out of the wagon and burps. Darla looks at him.
Spike: "What?"
Darla closes her eyes, turns back to the gypsy and snaps his neck.
Dru swaying by the fire: "Pretty music, pretty, pretty music. (Spike comes up to her and she pulls him into her dance) They cry out for mercy. They cry out for mercy."
Darla walking away: "Show none."

Another order from Darla telling them to show no mercy. She was the one who could offer protection to the gypsy wagon (until Spike screwed it up anyhow). She was the one negotiating Angel's soul and Spike and Drusilla were butchering the gypsies because Darla wanted to be there.


Darla and Dru are heading down a crowed sidewalk with Darla tossing Dru around.
Dru: "Did I do something to displease you?"
Darla tosses Dru on the sidewalk. A guy tries to help Dru up, but Darla tosses him aside, then grabs a hold of Dru and tosses her over a parked car onto the road. Dru stands up, only to get hit by a honking car. Dru rolls down the street a ways and a blonde woman gets out of the car and hurries towards her as Dru slowly gets back up. The woman takes one look at Dru and runs off as Darla comes and slams Dru down on the hood of the car.
Dru: "Grandmother, what?"
Darla hits her, making her stumble into the path of another car that manages to swerve around her, tires screeching.
Darla grabs a hold of Dru again.
Dru: "Don't be angry."
Darla slams her up against the side of the car.
Darla: "Why?"
Dru: "For you. All for you. I thought it was what you wanted - to be saved."
Darla looks at Dru (a guy in red pickup truck keeps honking his horn to get them to move out of the road) and slowly takes a step back, letting her hands drop from Dru's shoulders.
Dru crying: "All alone. All alone in the dirt. - We've lost our way and the little worm won't dance if he's told to. (Starts to sob) No. No."

Here we have Darla kicking Drusilla's ass along the street. Drusilla is clearly upset because she thought Darla would be pleased to be a vampire again. Drusilla wanted to know what she'd done wrong. She thought she was saving Darla, and when Darla is visibly upset, Drusilla know that she's in trouble. Since when has a leader vampire been upset over upsetting someone who is lower in the chain of command?


Dru: "You're all new again."
Darla: "Let's go shopping, hmm?"
She takes a hold of Dru's hand and the two of them walk off down the road, giggling.

Darla's idea to go shopping.


Dru is giggling, walking her fingers down a clothes rack in the Panache Boutique. She picks a black, sheer piece and turns to Darla.
Dru: "Can I have it? Can I?"
Darla: "Of course, dear, but a little color would bring out your eyes more. Such pretty eyes."
Dru: "Men are drawn to them."
Darla: "Aren't they, though? Oh. (Hands Dru a hat) Here."
Dru puts it on and we hear a phone ringing.
Dru: "Oh. I'm ringing. - Do you hear it? (Starts to dance in place) I'm ringing - all - over! (Darla watches her for a moment then reaches down into the front of Dru's dress and pulls out a cell phone.) Oh, yeah. I forgot about that."

Drusilla is deferring to Darla, asking her advice on what to wear and her permission on what to steal. Darla manhandles Drusilla reaching down her top and taking the phone call.


Dru: "Do you like it? Am I pretty then?"
Darla: "As a picture. Now if we could only get some shoes to go with it. Oh, excuse me, Miss? (Steps over the dead body and looks down at a whimpering woman who is pulling herself along across the floor) Any shoe suggestions for my friend's ensemble? (The woman just keeps crying) I said, excuse me-customer with a question here!"

Again, we have Drusilla asking Darla's opinion and advice, and we have Darla taking charge.


Holland: "Aha. (Chuckles) I guess I stepped into that one. - Listen Darla - I am *sorry* that you had to suffer, but look at what's come out of it. - You've been restored. You're a superior being. You can have anything you want. And there's not a person in this room who won't work (looks at the lawyers then back at Darla) round the clock - to see that you get it."
Darla: "Hmm. Gung-ho, are they? Because all I'm sensing right now is big, stinky fear. (Smiles in Holland's face then turns to Lindsey) But not from you. (Walks over to him) Do you know what I'm getting from you, Lindsey? (Leans in close to his neck, exposing her fangs as if to bite him, then pulls back) Nothing. Why aren't you afraid?"
Lindsey: "I don't know."
Darla: "You could die here. Chances are you will."
Lindsey: "I know."
Darla: "And you don't care."
Lindsey: "I care. - I guess I just don't mind."
Holland with a forced laugh: "No one's going to die here. This is just a friendly get-together amongst colleagues. (Dru is dancing around Holland's back) We're all on the same - side."
Darla with a sigh: "I love this room. Dru, honey, in our new digs (goes over to Dru to put one arm around her and another around Holland) we *have* to put in a people cellar."
Holland smiles, but the smile fades quickly.

Holland is pleading with Darla for his life, not Drusilla. Darla is talking about what their new digs are going to be like.


Darla: "Lindsey. I've missed you. Close the door. (Neither Lindsey nor Lilah move) Sweetpea, if we wanted you dead, you'd have never have made it out of the wine cellar. - Now close the door."
Lindsey closes the door.
Dru: "He's got cow eyes. Big and black. - Moo..."
Lindsey walks closer to Darla: "You spared me. - Why'd you spare me, Darla?"
Darla walks the rest of the way to him: "Do you really have to ask? (She leans in close to smell him) Hmm. I'm in love with you."
They look at each other for a few moments, then Darla burst out laughing. Lindsey jerks his head a little. Dru and Lilah join Darla's laughter.
Darla: "Shut up, Lilah."
Dru: "Shh!"
Darla: "Well, look at you two, such pretty scars."
Lindsey: "You've put us in a difficult position, Darla."
Darla: "Hmm, have I? - Smart young lawyers, (runs a hand up Lindsey's arm) hungry for their big break and whoops - boss gets eaten. Someone has to step in. Someone promising, pretty, with questionable ethics and twelve-hundred dollar suits that look good on the six o'clock news."
Lilah: "You think they'll promote him?"
Darla to Lilah: "Or you. (Walks back to the desk) In any case, that's why you're here. I've decided to - keep the line of communication open between us and Wolfram and Hart."
Lindsey: "What for?"
Darla: "I believe we can help each other."
Lindsey: "I don't think I understand. What is it exactly that you want, Darla?"
Darla: "Power. See, Lindsey, during my stint as Wolfram and Hart's puppet, something occurred to me. I *loathe* being used. If I recall I sent you a fifteen-body-memo to that effect. We plan on being big players in this town, Dru and I. - And while you can't give me what I want, you have the things I need to get it. Money. Connections."
Lilah: "We're no good to you dead, Darla. The Senior Partners are looking for someone to blame for your massacre."
Darla: "But surely they wouldn't kill both of you. Seems like such a waste. - Well, I guess, whoever's left standing will be our liaison."
Lindsey: "Liaison to what?"
Darla: "To the world above of course. In the meantime, we'll focus on the world below."

Here we have Lindsey asking why Darla spared him and asking what Darla wants. Darla tells Lilah to shut up. It's clear to Lindsey and Lilah that it's Darla in charge. They barely address Drusilla at all.


Darla: "Wow. That was something. But violence without victims, see, that's where you lose me."
Demon: "Who the hell are you?"
Darla: "My name's Darla and this is Drusilla. We're new in town though some of you know us by reputation."
Demon: "I never heard of you before."
[...]
Darla: "Me and my girl, we're not just the new thing in town - we're the only thing in town. And we're in the market for some... Well, one doesn't really want to use the term 'muscular slaves...' - Actually, one does. Unfortunately for most, we're only looking for the best. Those creatures who not only excel at devastation, but revel in it. Our crusade is one of malevolent joy."
Angel moves through the demon crowd, head down. Dru gasps as he slips past the demons standing behind her.
Dru: "Eyes like needles."
Darla: "Dru, I'm working here?"
Dru: "He sees you. Sees what you were. (Gasps and takes a step closer to Darla) You'll never be alone again."
Darla: "Stop! - J-just don't."
Dru: "He's watching you, my sweet, right now."
Darla spins around and looks at the crowd of demons.
Darla: "Angel."
Darla pushes into the crowd.
Dru: "He wants to punish us. He thinks we've been naughty. - He remembers when you were warm."
Darla spins around to face Dru: "Shut up, Drusilla!"
Dru turns away and Darla gives herself a little shake.
Darla speaking hurriedly: "Now, as I was saying, if you think you have what it takes to join us, auditions are tonight, here (pulls a business card out of her cleavage) at this address. Winners will have the opportunity to foment mass-destruction, losers will be gutted and left for dead. (Drops the card on the floor) Have a nice night. (Grabs a hold of Dru's arm and hustles her towards the door) Come on."

Notice how Darla does all the talking when it comes to recruiting the demons? She tells Drusilla to shut up too. The way Darla speaks to Drusilla in general is not the way a subordinate would speak to someone who has authority over them.



Darla: "That's nice, Dru. Now hurry up. We can't be late."

Again, Darla bossing Dru around and dismissing one of her visions.


Darla and Dru are walking up to the abandoned building where Angel met all those demons.
Darla: "I want to make this quick, alright? We get in there, weed out the losers, and get out. I've got precious little patience left."
Dru looks at the building: "Oh, it's beautiful! Dank and dark. It reeks of death."
Darla with a smile: "That's motor oil, Dru."
Dru: "Can we buy it? It could be our castle."
Darla: "There's no view. Plus we're broke. Though I suppose Lindsey could help out in that respect, if they haven't killed him yet."

Again, Darla being the boss and Drusilla asking her permission over something.


Angel turns around to pick up his bag of weapons, revealing a can of gasoline sitting on the hood behind him, and walks out without looking back.
Darla picks up a sledgehammer, leaning next to the door, runs outside and knocks the top of a fire hydrant off. She and Dru stand under the spray of water, letting it extinguish the flames, then sink down to sit on the edge of the sidewalk under it, with Darla holding Dru.

Darla saving their asses. Mike I've seen you post a theory on how Angel didn't actually intend to kill Drusilla in that scene and deliberately left a sledgehammer near a fire hydrant for her so that she could be saved. I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that is nothing in the text to support that. There is nothing to support the idea that Darla and Drusilla were saved by anything other than dumb luck. There happened to be a hydrant, there happened to be a sledgehammer. There is nothing to suggest that Angel torched the girls near a hydrant deliberately to merely send them a message. He was trying to kill them and any other interpretation is a case of you inserting your own fanon into the story.

kana
09-02-12, 05:26 PM
I love Dru, I believe she is powerful character, but leadership is more than physical power. Often it is contingent to personality. I've rarely seen Drusilla display any outright dominion over the rest of the fanged four.

VIR covered Dru's relationship with Darla, and I'll attempt to look at Angelus and Spike.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, but Spike following Dru's wishes has more to do with the fact that he loves her rather than Dru's influential behaviour. Didn't Spike often do what he thought Buffy would want when he loved her...


Spike: The soul, the changes...it's what you wanted. (from memory)

For me anyway, I think it says more about Spike than it does about Drusilla, if he was doing what she wanted to do.

As for Angelus, as I said in another thread MikeB, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. His decisions were often very self-motivated and had nothing to do with pleasing Dru. I mean seriously, what did he do that indicated that he was following her orders? Actually scratch that, when did Dru ever give Angelus any orders? What did she do that actually influenced his behaviour? As Stoney said, all he did was take heed of her visions. That's no different from Angel taking heed of Cordy's visions but that certainly doesn't mean that Cordy was somehow subtly in charge of Angel Investigations. In the same way it certainly does not necessarily imply that Angelus was, as you put it, Drusilla's glorified muscle.

MikeB
27-03-12, 09:44 AM
Stoney


I don't think Angel followed Dru, he listened to her visions if sense was there but he and Darla were at the top of the tree. I was referring to Season 2.


Also, the fight when Angel was pulling the sword from Acathla between Spike and Dru was more of a tussle for physical dominance from Spike's pov rather than a fists and fangs brawl. He was trying to overpower her not kill her. True. But Dru didn’t seem intent on killing him either.


Having said all that I always got the impression we were supposed to think of all four of the Scourge as powerful vamps. Darla was like an ordinary vampire in BtVS.


As an aside, I found it disappointing how easily she killed Kendra as Spike was supposed to be the Slayer of Slayers and loved the challenge of fighting them. This seems less impressive when his girlfriend takes 10 secs to Crocodile Dundee them!! That’s the point though. Drusilla’s doesn’t brag about her powers and isn’t boastful like Spike, but she’s very powerful and could and did easily kill Kendra.

Already in Season 2 there was “Lie to Me” (2.07) in which Dru tells Angel that “Or you’ll hurt me. No, no you can’t. Not anymore.” and Angel didn’t disagree. In “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.18) Dru tosses Angelus into a tree and then threatens his life and Angelus is clearly scared of Dru and doesn’t dare challenge her. And, of course, Kendra had to come to Sunnydale to try to stop Dru from rising as she was “a dark power” that was “about to rise”. Kendra wasn’t needed for Spike being in town, wasn’t needed for Angel reverting back to Angelus, but she was needed to try to stop Dru from getting well. I’ll also mention the Anointed One. He seemed scared or at least intimidate by Dru. And at the end of “School Hard” (2.03), Dru was just standing around waiting for Spike even though Spike’s plan resulted in dead vampires.



vampmogs


Angelus was documented as being the "worst vampire on record." No, he wasn’t. That was merely Wesley and Angel saying that.


Around Valentimes Day Giles suggested Buffy, the Slayer, to stay off the streets for a few nights because of him. Because of the creepy ‘Valentine’s Day’ things Angel would do.


The Master called him the most vicious creature he had ever met. As compared to who? Darla? Luke? We don’t even know if Drusilla or Spike ever even met the Master.


Darla called him legendary and stated that nobody could match him. She also said “including me” and Darla was relatively pathetic. Darla’s obvious not an objective source.


All it took was hearing he was back for Faith to break out of jail. Wesley went there to get her. And Faith was intent on taking Angel down without killing him.


Angel tells Lindsay he's the greatest mass murderer he's ever met etc. I could go on. Angel’s not an objective source.


So no, it's certainly not "canon" that Dru was more dangerous and/or more feared than Angelus. It’s canon that the Scoobies and the Fang Gang considered Dru more dangerous and such.


The hype surrounding Angelus is undeniable and unmatched by any other vampire. What hype? Maybe we’re discussing different things. I’m discussing how dangerous they are to people like Buffy. Buffy mocked Angel’s ability to beat her, the Scoobies all reasoned that Buffy could hold Angel off until Willow re-cursed him. Over in AtS, the Fang Gang was merely concerned about the idea of having to kill Angel.

The Scoobies – barring maybe Buffy – were always concerned about Spike’s ability to kill Buffy. Cordelia and Doyle were concerned that Spike would kill Angel in a fight.

Drusilla’s rising was the event that prompted Kendra to need to be in Sunnydale. It wasn’t until Acathla’s opening was a concern that she needed to be back in Sunnydale. Angel and Co. immediately became concerned upon discovering that Drusilla was in Los Angeles.

As for Lothos and the Master: Buffy had already killed them by the time Giles thought it’d be a good idea for the Scoobies to leave town since Spike would likely kill Buffy in a fight. As for Dracula, after Buffy was no longer able to be in thrall, she relatively easily beat him.


The hierarchy amongst the Fang Gang was quite clear. Dru deferred to Angelus and considered him "daddy." When slaughtering the gypsies she feared Angelus would be "very cross" with them that they had a manslaughter without him, but Darla instructs her to keep killing -- "Go on, kill things!" It was quite cleat Dru obeyed Angelus and Darla ("daddy" and "grandmother") and we see her immediately defer to Angelus again in Sunnydale and Darla in LA. That latter part is incorrect. When did she ever defer to Angel in Season 2 other than in “I Was Made to Love You” (2.19) when at the end of the episode she wanted Spike to go with them but Angel said that the sun was about to rise and therefore they couldn’t afford to take Spike with them.


This idea that Dru was the most feared and most powerful vampire and controlled the likes of Angelus or Darla is, quite frankly, absurd to me. It bares little resemblance to the group dynamic I watched or what is clearly stated in the text. I wasn’t referring to how they were in the 1800s. In terms of power, besides possibly Dracula, who has close to her power? She’s not only possibly stronger than Buffy – it seems she was stronger than Kendra --, she has her claws, her hypno-beams, it’s implied that she can enter people dreams, she can mind-read, etc. Spike implies that Dracula’s powers came from Gypsy magic but it’s been implied in Angel and Faith that Drusilla’s powers come from herself and not from magic.



Vampire in Rug


I can bring over the transcripts from the AtS episodes where Drusilla clearly defers to Darla, asks her opinions, seeks her permission etc. The Buffyverse is more than what the transcripts on Buffyworld.com show. The Buffyverse is more than reading dialogue off of a page.

Drusilla in AtS s2 ultimately wanted her entire family together. Drusilla didn’t have any strong connection to Wolfram and Hart and Darla did. Darla wasn’t doing anything that was against Dru’s interests. And once Darla was no longer useful to Dru, she dumped her off with Lindsey and didn’t come back. And so far, we’ve not seen or heard of one mention of Dru even knowing about Darla dying or Dru even caring about where Darla is.


the idea that Drusilla was bossing Angel and Spike around in BtVS season 2. Dru did boss Spike around at times and Angel did whatever she wanted him to do. And same with Spike.


Anyone who has seen the show knows that Angelus was in charge. In the Fang Gang before Spike and Dru left them in 1900, Darla was in charge. Though it seems that Spike didn’t consider that to be so and therefore she likely had little to no control over Spike. Angel didn’t seem to have much power. Once Spike was made, Angel had power because he was the mentor and ‘father-figure’/’brother-figure’/’BFF’/’frenemy’ of Spike.

In Season 2, Drusilla largely controlled what Spike and Angel did. And Angel only became ‘leader’ when they moved to the mansion but even there he simply did whatever Dru wanted.


I don't understand why you need to elevate her above all the other vampires just because she's a favorite of yours. Dru killed Kendra. Kendra relatively easily whupped Angel. If not for Dru, Angel would have been re-cursed in “Passion” (2.17?).

_________________________________________________

Your quotes:

* 1898: Drusilla was concerned about what Angel would think of them having a “lovely mass slaughter without him.” And after Darla says things like “Go on, kill things.”, instead of doing that, Drusilla it seems went to go find Spike.

Darla obviously had no power to stop the Gypsy Father’ family from being killed: Spike doesn’t seem to follow her orders or seems to think much of her in general. He killed the family and just brushed off Darla’s sadness with a rather dismissive “What?”


She was the one negotiating Angel's soul and Spike and Drusilla were butchering the gypsies because Darla wanted to be there. Drusilla and Spike didn’t know Angel was cursed. And they all were in Romania: it’s not as if Drusilla and Spike didn’t like slaughtering people. We don’t know if she directed them to slaughter the Gypsies or if that was something that they were going to do anyway.

As for the ‘show them no mercy’ thing, nothing suggests that they were even ‘listening’ to her. They were going to slaughter the rest anyway.

* “Reunion” (2.10): Dru knew that Darla didn’t want to become a vampire. And she knew she was punishing Angel by turning Darla. So, Dru mocks Darla in the plant nursery and later on the streets allows Darla to toss her around a bit – Drusilla was not at all hurt by any of that – and then quickly makes Darla feel sorry and bad for Dru. And later she mocks Darla some more saying things like Darla misses being human and having a heartbeat.

I’m not concerned with ‘chain of command’. I’m concerned with who has the most power. Dru was brought in and she sires Darla. Then she proceeds to kill Holland and Co. and has Lilah Morgan remain alive, something that clearly Darla was against. Drusilla being able to know the future, it’s interesting where Lilah ends up and where Lindsey ends up.


Darla's idea to go shopping. Was Dru going to have her be barefoot and remaining in those dirty clothes?


Drusilla is deferring to Darla, asking her advice on what to wear and her permission on what to steal. I don’t consider that she’s literally asking for permission. Drusilla is acting like someone who just got her grandmother back. Plus, Darla is now treating Drusilla better than she had in say the 1900 flashbacks.


Darla manhandles Drusilla reaching down her top and taking the phone call. “Manhandles” is simply incorrect work choice.


Holland is pleading with Darla for his life, not Drusilla. Darla is talking about what their new digs are going to be like. Darla is actually talking to Holland while Drusilla is not. Also, Holland has more of a connection with Darla. For the latter, we don’t know what their new digs would be like.


Here we have Lindsey asking why Darla spared him and asking what Darla wants. Darla tells Lilah to shut up. It's clear to Lindsey and Lilah that it's Darla in charge. They barely address Drusilla at all. Lindsey has the connection to Darla and Lindsey is the alpha among Lilah and him. Both though seem a lot more scared of Drusilla. For example, Lilah actually shuts up when Drusilla says, “Shh.” not when Darla tells her to “Shut up, Lilah.”


Notice how Darla does all the talking when it comes to recruiting the demons? She tells Drusilla to shut up too. The way Darla speaks to Drusilla in general is not the way a subordinate would speak to someone who has authority over them. She tells Dru to shut up because of what Dru is saying to Darla. And so what if Darla is doing more of the work. Does Dru not want to have a gang?


Again, Darla bossing Dru around and dismissing one of her visions. Darla also dismissed Dru’s in 1900 saying, “Don’t be cross, I could be your mummy.” Dru it seems was having a vision of the Reign of Fire.

As for Dru’s asking if they could buy the abandoned building: that’s a whole point for her of them using Lindsey and Lilah.


Darla saving their asses. Darla’s the one who got the axe and broke the fire hydrant. That seems like something that Dru would have been able to do.


Mike I've seen you post a theory on how Angel didn't actually intend to kill Drusilla in that scene and deliberately left a sledgehammer near a fire hydrant for her so that she could be saved. I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that is nothing in the text to support that. Other than Angel set them on fire conveniently very close to a fire hydrant and there was a sledgehammer on their path that would break the fire hydrant. And also that instead of staying and trying to kill them in their just-been-on-fire state, he simply walked away. Angel broke the Gem of Amarra because he knew it made him a target. Angel wasn’t intent on killing Dru because of Spike and also because he likely didn’t want to.



kana


Spike following Dru's wishes has more to do with the fact that he loves her rather than Dru's influential behaviour. Didn't Spike often do what he thought Buffy would want when he loved her... So, if Spike does something because he loves Dru that doesn’t mean that she has power and influence over him? Also, Dru had visions.

The main things that Angel did in Season 2: killing Jenny Calender, taking the Judge out to play, and opening Acathla are all because of Drusilla. And Angel never before Season 2 or after Season 2 was ever shown to have apocalyptic tendencies.

kana
27-03-12, 01:27 PM
kana

So, if Spike does something because he loves Dru that doesn’t mean that she has power and influence over him? Also, Dru had visions.

Yes, but not because Dru is particularly influencial and that's my point.


The main things that Angel did in Season 2: killing Jenny Calender, taking the Judge out to play, and opening Acathla are all because of Drusilla.

I'm not saying that Drusilla didn't play a major part, my point there is little evidence that Angelus following Dru's wishes. If Dru happened to want to same things as Angelus and vice versa, then that's an example of shared interests. It's only if we knew that Angelus was coerced, tricked or specifically trying to please Dru (of which you always failed to provide evidence), then the basic assumption would be he did these things because that's what he wanted.

He killed Jenny, because he wanted to remain soulless. As I said, the fact that Dru gave him that information wasn't evidence that he did what he did because Dru wanted him, he used the information Drusilla gave him to save his own skin, therefore, he's acting within his own interests.

Taking the Judge out? Angelus didn't seem adverse to that and when he offered 'take care of Buffy' so she wont be a threat, he addressed both Spike and Drusilla.

I agree, he never would have opened Acathla had he not known about it, but him finding out from Dru and deciding and put the plan into affect does not mean he's doing it because Dru wants him to do it. Being influencial is about influencing peoples behaviour to get them to do what you want. Merely telling someone about something (even if it is what Dru wants) is not in itself proof that, that influences one's decision.


And Angel never before Season 2 or after Season 2 was ever shown to have apocalyptic tendencies

As far as we know, before Season 2 neither has Dru, but they changed their mind. Simply assuming the reason he changed his mind because of Dru, is arguing out the absence of information. Also Angelus said, he tends to make his own plans and even Spike said, he has a tendency to like to be in charge. Nothing suggests on screen that Angelus is being swayed into making these decision because it's Dru who is giving him the information.

As I said, it's unclear why exactly Angelus wants to end the world, but i'm not going to assume it's because he wants to please Drusilla. There is no character set up for this.

vampmogs
27-03-12, 01:32 PM
No, he wasn’t. That was merely Wesley and Angel saying that.

Nonsense. Where do you think Wesley learnt everything he did about Angelus? From the Watcher's texts, from the records of his history, from the Council. If Wesley says Angelus is documented as being "the worst vampire on record" than he was. The fact Angel doesn’t dispute this only supports this further.


Because of the creepy ‘Valentine’s Day’ things Angel would do.

Um, because Angelus was a danger to her.


As compared to who? Darla? Luke? We don’t even know if Drusilla or Spike ever even met the Master.

*sigh* MikeB, I see little point in having discussions with you when you have such a bad habit of dismissing any text that you don’t agree with in favour for your own biased interpretations. The Master, just like Wesley, is clearly meant to be a credible source and has no reason to lie when talking of Angelus’ exceptional viciousness and cruelty. He’s clearly not comparing Angelus to just Darla and Luke when he says Angelus is the most vicious creature he has “ever” met – he’s hundreds, possibly thousands, of years old and would have met many vampires/demons in his time.


She also said “including me” and Darla was relatively pathetic. Darla’s obvious not an objective source.

Oh my. It's really hard to take you seriously when you call Darla "relatively pathetic." That "relatively pathetic" vampire was bossing Dru around as if she was an annoying child, she was tossing Dru around like a ragdoll when she was upset with her and she was clearly calling the shots in LA.


Wesley went there to get her. And Faith was intent on taking Angel down without killing him.

... your point being?


Angel’s not an objective source.

Actually, he is. The guy has absaloutely no reason to lie about all the murders he has commited over the years. There's no reason he'd "boast" about such a thing or make himself seem worse than he truly was. And there's no way he'd bother doing that to a guy like Lindsey who had every resource available to him to study Angel's history for years and would know if he's telling the truth or not.


It’s canon that the Scoobies and the Fang Gang considered Dru more dangerous and such.

Actually, it's not. See I have just provided you with a whole bunch of quotes where various characters call Angel the "worst vampire on record", the most "vicious creature they've ever met", the "greatest mass murderer they've ever met", "legendary" and somebody "nobody could keep up with" and THAT is what you call “canon.” Actual *quotes* from the text which all have one thing in common – that Angelus is as bad as they can get. Yet you’ve dismissed each and every one of them in favour for your own personal FANON where Drusilla is regarded as the most powerful, worst and dangerous vampire even when not a single character *ever* says this.


I’m discussing how dangerous they are to people like Buffy.

In which case you have absaloutely NO canon to support your argument. Because aside from *one fight* where Buffy was *chained up* she and Dru have never even fought against one another. And even when she was chained up Buffy managed pretty well against Drusilla and managed to flip her to the ground using her legs only. So you have no canon to go on. You're, to use your own favourite word, "merely" guessing and trying to pass off your guesses as some kind of canonical fact. It's not fact. It's not canon.

On the other hand, we have numerous fights between Buffy and Angelus which we can analyse and discuss. Do I believe Buffy is stronger than Angelus? Absolutely. Would I place my bets with Buffy if it came down to a fight between her and Angelus? Yes. But Angelus can boast of disarming Buffy, of bringing her to her knees, and having a sword inches from her face. He can boast of kicking her arse at the beginning of their fight in the mall. He can boast of being moments away from drinking from her in Killed By Death before the Scoobies intervened. Not many vampires have ever got her on the ropes like that so I’m not sure why you’re so cavalier about his lethalness.

zianna
27-03-12, 02:09 PM
Because aside from *one fight* where Buffy was *chained up* she and Dru have never even fought against one another.

Actually kind of two. In "Lie to me" Buffy easily captured Drusilla and used her as her negotiation to force Spike into letting her and the humans go. I don't remember Drusilla fighting back or even trying to defend herself, Dru was totally helpless against Buffy at that moment.

TimeTravellingBunny
27-03-12, 02:19 PM
Actually kind of two. In "Lie to me" Buffy easily captured Drusilla and used her as her negotiation to force Spike into letting her and the humans go. I don't remember Drusilla fighting back or even trying to defend herself, Dru was totally helpless against Buffy at that moment.
That was, however, before Drusilla was restored to her old strength in What's My Line.

zianna
27-03-12, 02:41 PM
That was, however, before Drusilla was restored to her old strength in What's My Line.

I know, but Spike was also pretty beaten up by Glory but still found the strength to find a way to free himself. My point is that when you have such a strong vampire, even when the vampire is at its worst, it can still fight back and at least try to defend itself. Drusilla was totally helpless counting on Spike to save her and didn't even try anything to free herself. Yes I believe that Drusilla is strong but not so strong as Mike presents her to be. And I also believe that Dru's power is her mind mostly. Her visions, her predicting the future, her hypnosis, stuff like that that other vampires don't have. Plus the fact that she was insane, and there you have a vampire that it's a big threat for Buffy. Buffy wasn't afraid of Dru because of her power, but because of her madness and her psychotic powers.

MikeB
04-05-12, 09:06 AM
It seems this thread needs to have some kind of baseline when discussing Drusilla’s strength and power.

* She easily killed Kendra and was the reason that Kendra had to come to Sunnydale.

* Kendra got in a standstill with Buffy (who was perhaps still partly sore from her fight with the Order of Taraka guy) and relatively easily beat Angel.

* She was beating Spike until she got distracted by Angel pulling the sword from Acathla.

* If it weren’t for Spike tossing her away from Buffy, she would have killed Buffy in “Crush” (5.14). Buffy was chained up but Dru had been roped up and managed to escape. We don’t know whether Buffy could have escaped had she been similarly tied up by Spike and we don’t know if Dru could have escaped the chains that Buffy was in.

* In “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16), Dru tossed Angel into a tree and threatened him not to lay a finger on Xander. Angel backed off clearly – at the least – intimidated by Dru. There’s no indication that Angel has any idea that Dru is under a spell: so, it’s simply him being – at the least – intimidated by Dru that gets him to back off.

* If it weren’t for Dru, Angel would have been re-cursed in “Passion” (2.17).

* Dru managed to get that Lorophage demon as a pet and had followers.

* The Drusilla-sired Darla clearly was more powerful than the Master-sired Darla (though this could be because of Jasmine).

* Whatever his reasons, Angelus in Season 2 did what Dru wanted him to do. And there’s no indication in canon that Angelus prior to Season 2 or after Season 2 was into the idea of creating apocalypses.

All the above is baseline: meaning that they are almost or are absolute canon.

_________

Debatable things:

If not for Drusilla, Angel may have never even found out about Acathla being there. Therefore, Dru was the reason that Kendra came the second time.

She was beating Angel in “Reunion” (A 2.10?). Also, if the fight went on longer, she likely would have beaten Angel in A&F 1.09.

Drusilla is stronger than Angel, Spike, and possibly Buffy (Season 2 Buffy). Drusilla easily overpowered Kendra, and Drusilla grip – given Buffy’s reaction to it in “Crush” (5.14) – seems stronger than the Aprilbot’s.

Debatable (though pretty much canon): Were not for Dru, Spike would have killed Billy Fordam when Ford was in the factory and Spike would have killed Angel before Spike could do the spell to cure Dru.


‘Controversial stuff’:

* Is there any indication that Angel could have stopped Drusilla from using the Judge? Is there any indication that Angel could have stopped the trying-to-open-Acathla thing? ‘Shared interest’ arguments are speculation at-best.

* Angel in Season 2 would have had no power if Dru didn’t want him to have any. She could have very likely gotten her minions to kill him or killed him herself if that’s what she wanted. As-is, she considered him useful in her desire to kill Buffy and have fun doing things like the Judge and Acathla.

____________

The ‘how cool/badass/etc. Angelus is stuff that was discussed – to me – was mostly off-topic from what the thread is about.

What did Angelus accomplish? He killed weak people in situations where they couldn’t put up a fight. He killed the Beast when the Beast wasn’t paying any attention to him. He only beat Faith because that was Faith’s whole plan. He only had any chance against Buffy because of Buffy’s feelings for the non-cursed version of Angelus. Buffy had she not had feelings for Angel, would have killed him in that mall.

What did Drusilla accomplish? She killed Kendra. She’s the only major villain to never be killed or turned good. She would have killed Buffy were not for Spike saving Buffy from her.

In canon, Angel and Darla ran away across continents away from a human. Granted, Angel was still a young vampire at the time. But around that age, Spike killed a Slayer.

And Angel being ‘the worst vampire on record’ is only something from AtS and only something that Angel – and later Wesley – says. And Spike being the ‘second worst vampire on record’ was only something that was in “Just Rewards” (A 5.02).

______________

As for Dru and Darla in AtS s2: We don’t know the reasons why Dru had Darla be ‘their leader’. What we do know is that when Darla was no longer of use to her, she dropped her off with Lindsey and didn’t return. Dru’s ultimate priority was trying to get Spike back and so it stands to reason that the Wolfram and Hart stuff was about that. In any event, Dru kept Lilah Morgan alive which was clearly something that Darla didn’t want: we wanted only Lindsey MacDonald to survive.



kana


My quote: So, if Spike does something because he loves Dru that doesn’t mean that she has power and influence over him? Also, Dru had visions.

Yes, but not because Dru is particularly influencial and that's my point. Well, Angel and Faith (A&F) states otherwise.


As I said, it's unclear why exactly Angelus wants to end the world, but i'm not going to assume it's because he wants to please Drusilla. There is no character set up for this. There’s all the flashbacks of Darla and him with him trying to please Darla.



vampmogs



My quote: Because of the creepy ‘Valentine’s Day’ things Angel would do.

Um, because Angelus was a danger to her. It seems you need to rewatch those scenes.

My quote: As compared to who? Darla? Luke? We don’t even know if Drusilla or Spike ever even met the Master. You didn’t address this. And the Master saying that Angelus was the most vicious creature he ever met doesn’t mean that he was referring to Angel’s ability to kill Slayers, survive fights with mobs, etc. Frankly, we only saw one meeting between the Master and Angel and we later found out that Darla had occasionally gone back to the Master and stayed with him even after she was with Angel. For all we know, the Master’s knowledge of Angel only comes from what Darla told him about Angel.

Angel being vicious and cruel against humans doesn’t mean that Angel is more powerful or deadly than Spike or Drusilla. For all we know, the Master didn’t even know that Drusilla and Spike existed.

And speculation isn’t canon. The only vampires we know of that the Master has met or those like Darla, Luke, Angel, and the Anointed One.


My quote: She also said “including me” and Darla was relatively pathetic. Darla’s obvious not an objective source.

Oh my. It's really hard to take you seriously when you call Darla "relatively pathetic." Watch “The Harvest” (1.02) and “Angel” (1.07).


That "relatively pathetic" vampire was bossing Dru around as if she was an annoying child, she was tossing Dru around like a ragdoll when she was upset with her and she was clearly calling the shots in LA. Drusilla didn’t fight-to-kill Darla in AtS s2 and Dru left Darla off with Lindsey when she was no longer of use to Dru. All Darla was in AtS was a vessel to put Connor in and she staked herself to bring Connor into the world. And Connor was only there to bring about Jasmine.


My quote: Wesley went there to get her. And Faith was intent on taking Angel down without killing him.

... your point being? That in a real fight, Faith would kill Angel.

My quote: Angel’s not an objective source. Wolfram and Hart didn’t have information on every vampire that ever existed or that was currently alive. Angel calling himself the worst vampire who ever lived is just that. Lothos killed like dozens of Slayers or something like that. Clearly, he’s worse than Angel.


My quote: It’s canon that the Scoobies and the Fang Gang considered Dru more dangerous and such.

Actually, it's not. See I have just provided you with a whole bunch of quotes where various characters call Angel the "worst vampire on record", the most "vicious creature they've ever met", the "greatest mass murderer they've ever met", "legendary" and somebody "nobody could keep up with" and THAT is what you call “canon.” Actual *quotes* from the text which all have one thing in common – that Angelus is as bad as they can get. Yet you’ve dismissed each and every one of them in favour for your own personal FANON where Drusilla is regarded as the most powerful, worst and dangerous vampire even when not a single character *ever* says this. Aside from the ‘worst vampire on record’ – which, when was this first said? – none of those quotes – which are from the Master, Angel, and Darla – address my quote.

You seem to equate ‘evil against humans’ as equivalent to ‘power and deadliness’. And as for evil against humans: Dru ate babies and toddlers and Spike wiped out an orphanage. This is almost absolute canon: “It’s canon that the Scoobies and the Fang Gang considered Dru more dangerous and such.” The Scoobies and Giles weren’t that concerned about Angelus other than Buffy’s emotional ability to off him. They all assumed that Buffy could hold Angel off until Willow successfully completed the re-cursing spell. With Drusilla, Kendra had to come to Sunnydale to try to prevent Dru’s ‘rising’. Dru killed Kendra. Kendra who relatively easily beat up Angel. Over in AtS, Wesley and Cordelia became very concerned upon learning that Drusilla was in Los Angeles. Over in AtS, Cordelia and Doyle were very concerned about Spike’s ability to kill Angel. In AtS s4, Angelus is only a concern for the Fang Gang over whether or not they’d actually kill him instead of trying to re-curse him (albeit they had Connor at the time).


My quote: I’m discussing how dangerous they are to people like Buffy.

In which case you have absaloutely NO canon to support your argument. She easily killed Kendra who got into a standstill with Buffy. Buffy if not for Spike would have been killed in “Crush” (5.14).


On the other hand, we have numerous fights between Buffy and Angelus which we can analyse and discuss. First off: Numerous? Weren’t there only three at most and the one in “Becoming Part I” (2.21) was merely Buffy trying to stall.

You completely ignore in your arguments that the only reason Angelus had any chance against Buffy is because of Buffy’s love and attachment to Angel. Once she finally got past that, she easily kicked Angel’s ass.

You don’t address “The Yoko Factor” (4.20). Buffy is still bruised and such and yet her threatening both Angel and Riley immediately puts them in their place.



zianna


In "Lie to me" Buffy easily captured Drusilla and used her as her negotiation to force Spike into letting her and the humans go. I don't remember Drusilla fighting back or even trying to defend herself, Dru was totally helpless against Buffy at that moment. Dru was weak to the point that Spike didn’t even want her leaving the factory.

__________________________________________________ ___


Spike was also pretty beaten up by Glory but still found the strength to find a way to free himself. Spike’s wasn’t dying and wasn’t currently in the hold of Glory. It’s not at all comparable.


My point is that when you have such a strong vampire, even when the vampire is at its worst, it can still fight back and at least try to defend itself. Buffy had Dru in her arms and had a stake pointed at Dru’s heart.


Buffy wasn't afraid of Dru because of her power, but because of her madness and her psychotic powers. In “Crush” (5.14), Buffy was afraid that Dru would get out of those ropes and kill her. And she was correct to be afraid as if it weren’t for Spike tossing Dru away from Buffy, Dru would be dead.

kana
06-05-12, 04:19 PM
I'm going to address the point below because I was the one who brought up the subject of shared interests.






* Is there any indication that Angel could have stopped Drusilla from using the Judge? Is there any indication that Angel could have stopped the trying-to-open-Acathla thing? ‘Shared interest’ arguments are speculation at-best.

If this is directed at my argument (seen as I've used it before) my point is there is little indication of Angel being reluctant in both instances.

He was enthusiastically smiling when the Judge was about kill all those with humanity and he was main driving force behind Acathla once he found out about it.

Where is the quote that demonstrates he was trying to please Dru? Or following her orders? If there are none then the burden of proof that Dru was compelling him to do it is upon you.

For example surely if he was indifferent to opening Acathla he wouldn't have been so annoyed if it didn't work. That implies he wanted it to happen. Nowhere in the scene does he look to see what Dru would do if he failed, nor does he apologize to her for it not working. In the absense of such proof all we can assume is that Angelus had his own interest in doing it and no one mentions otherwise.

Therefore 'shared interest' is implied unless you can find a quote that proves otherwise.







kana

Well, Angel and Faith (A&F) states otherwise.

Admittedly, I've only seen read issue of "A&F" but I was talking more about Dru's influence over Angelus and Spike.


There’s all the flashbacks of Darla and him with him trying to please Darla.

The only time you to which you could really be referring is when Angel was trying to prove he was still evil, but that was more about him struggling with his identity. As Angelus at best he indulged Darla but then she indulged him as well. There were in France for example because Angelus wanted to be there. He also turned Dru into vampire against Darla's initial wishes. There is little indication he was doing what he did because Darla wanted him to do it.

MikeB
30-05-12, 07:54 AM
kana

I never said that Dru was compelling Angel to do the Judge or Acathla thing or that she was ordering him to do those things.


For example surely if he was indifferent to opening Acathla he wouldn't have been so annoyed if it didn't work. That implies he wanted it to happen. Nowhere in the scene does he look to see what Dru would do if he failed, nor does he apologize to her for it not working. Um, he does promise them that they will have their Armageddon.


Therefore 'shared interest' is implied unless you can find a quote that proves otherwise. “Shared interest” implies that these were joint decisions. My point is that even if Angel didn’t want to do them, nothing suggests that he could have stopped Dru from trying to do them. And there’s no quote of any joint decisions being made. Dru wanted to do something and Angel worked towards her aims.

kana
01-06-12, 08:58 AM
kana

I never said that Dru was compelling Angel to do the Judge or Acathla thing or that she was ordering him to do those things.

This is the issue that confuses me. Without any indication that Angelus is trying to please Dru and without any indication that he's fearful of what might happen if he didn't attempt to awaken Acathla or, and I hasten to add this, walk along and make comments while he walked along side the Judge, then I can't see what you mean by Dru got Angelus to do what she wants. How???!!!!! By merely mentioning it? This argument makes no sense to me.


Um, he does promise them that they will have their Armageddon.

So? His tone is neither fearful nor subserviant. I mean, a general can say to his troops something like "I promise you we'll have our victory" it doesn't mean that all of a sudden all his troops have outranked him. He also doesn't say "You'll have your Armageddon", so along with his frustration that his plan didn't work, it demonstrates, at least at face value that he wanted it to happen as much as Dru did.


“Shared interest” implies that these were joint decisions.

No it doesn't. Shared interest only implies having a.....shared interest. You seem to require some absurd notion of Dru and Angelus putting on their business suits, have a meeting and then decide what to do. All it requires is for both of them to want it to happen, which based upon what we see on screen is what happened.

In any respect, Angelus never asked for Dru's opinion on such matters. He only asked her what she saw, not what she wanted. As soon as Angelus found this information out he then proceeded to put it into effect. Dru enthusiastically telling him does not imply an imperative so I consider it from Angelus' perspective to be a transfer of information upon which, Angelus made his own decision. The lack of dialogue does not prove he was only doing it to please Dru. Please tell me if this is your opinion because I'm honestly confused. Saying things like "Dru got Angelus to do the Acathla thing" is non-sensical and unfounded unless you can state what Dru does other than simply mentioning to Angelus after he asks her for the information. Even saying if it were not for Dru, Angelus would have never decided to open Acathla is speculation in itself, because all that would require was Angelus being able to read the morning paper and find out for himself. Would he have done it if he found out by himself? It's possible seen as there is no proof he was trying to please Dru and seemed disappointed when it didn't work. In any event, we don't know, so saying he definitely wouldn't is not proven.

Also saying Angelus has never tried to destroy the world before isn't proof anything either for several reasons. As I said before, the assumption is that soulless vampires remain static, which is not necessarily true. Angelus has the right to change his mind. Darla also said that what we once were informs all that we have become. Well, I believe this is true of Angelus both when he was originally turned when he lost his soul in 1998, so it's possible he's not exactly the same vampire he was in 1760.

On top of that, I cannot stand arguments that claim proof in the absence of proof of an opposing argument. In short, just because Angelus changed his mind, it doesn't mean Dru is the impetus. It's a possible reason but there is no proof.


My point is that even if Angel didn’t want to do them, nothing suggests that he could have stopped Dru from trying to do them.

Again with the 'negative proof'. Even if he couldn't have stopped it, (and we have no idea what would have happened if Angelus found out and simply ignored the opportunity) it doesn't mean he was doing it for Dru. To explain, you're using a negative hypothetical to prove a so called positive. Even if Dru could beat Angelus in a fight, it doesn't mean that he only tried to suck the world into hell because Dru wanted him to. The Beast almost destroyed TeamAngel, but Angelus wasn't interested in following his orders, specifically saying he makes his own plans. Just because he was ok with the Judge doing his thing and just because he found out about Acathla from Dru, it doesn't mean she was formally or informally in charge of him.


And there’s no quote of any joint decisions being made. Dru wanted to do something and Angel worked towards her aims.

See above, no quotes are needed. The burden of proof is upon you to prove he was doing it for Dru, so I look forward to your quotes. If you can't find any, my point has been made, because I only speculated why Angelus might want to open Acathla, I never said I knew the reason why. If you can't find any quotes, then I rest my case :).

MikeB
18-12-12, 09:38 AM
I’m not sure if I mentioned it in this thread before, but the First Evil acknowledges that Drusilla was the Big Bad of BtVS S2. It’s simply unreasonable to contend that Angelus was somehow her boss.




kana


Without any indication that Angelus is trying to please Dru Other than Angelus did what Drusilla wanted him to do?


without any indication that he's fearful of what might happen if he didn't attempt to awaken Acathla He did attempt to awaken Acathla, so it wasn’t really an issue.


walk along and make comments while he walked along side the Judge, What does this have to do with anything. The Judge couldn’t burn him, so it wasn’t exactly a threat to him anyway.


then I can't see what you mean by Dru got Angelus to do what she wants. Angelus did what Drusilla wanted him to do.


By merely mentioning it? This argument makes no sense to me. Other than that’s what actually happened. There’s isn’t any reasonable argument against this.

Drusilla even liked the fact that Angel was ‘fighting with Spike’ over her.


Here are facts: There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Judge thing if Drusilla didn’t already want to do the Judge thing.

There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Acathla thing if Drusilla hadn’t already expressed that she wanted to do the Acathla thing.


Really, the only relevant discussion is what would have happened had Angel refused to do the Judge thing or what would have happened had Angel refused to do the Acathla thing because it wasn’t Angel’s decision to do either.

Also, you try to make it so that Angel was their leader and Drusilla and Spike were subservient to him. You did it again in this post:
I mean, a general can say to his troops something like "I promise you we'll have our victory" it doesn't mean that all of a sudden all his troops have outranked him. Angel was nominally the leader because Drusilla prefers to have others do such things. So, Spike and later Angel and later Darla were the CEO to her Chairperson. And when her interest conflicts, she makes it known. She does this with Spike in BtVS S2 as well, like preventing him from killing Ford. And when Darla was no longer useful to her, Dru ditched her leaving her with Lindsey. Drusilla is more powerful than Angel is, and Spike is against Angel. If Angel did something that displeased her, there’s no indication that she wouldn’t act against him or that she wouldn’t be successful acting against him.


My quote: “Shared interest” implies that these were joint decisions.

No it doesn't. Shared interest only implies having a.....shared interest. You seem to require some absurd notion of Dru and Angelus putting on their business suits, have a meeting and then decide what to do. You missed the point. The only decision Angel made was doing what Drusilla wanted him to do.


In any respect, Angelus never asked for Dru's opinion on such matters. He knew what she wanted and did what she wanted.


* It is canon that Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing and that Angel knew this. Drusilla brings up the subject.

It’s frankly beyond irritating and it’s getting about tiresome that you continue to refuse to acknowledge this. Your whole argument about the Acathla thing is incorrect because of this.

These three things are canon: Drusilla brings up the subject of Acathla, Drusila obviously wants to open Acathla and Angel knows this; Angel helps to open Acathla.

You finally acknowledged that Drusilla brought up the subject of Acathla: this is the first time I remember you doing such a thing. Now, you need to acknowledge the last two.

Also, Angel isn’t Drusilla’s leader in BtVS S2.


Also saying Angelus has never tried to destroy the world before isn't proof anything either Angel never before or after did such things as the Judge or Acathla. Drusilla’s the one who wanted to use the Judge to kill everyone with humanity and was the one who wanted to open Acathla so that the world could go to hell. Angel liked decadence and liked living in the world as it is. There’s zero proof that were not for Dru wanting to do those things that Angel would have wanted to do them. Angel in BtVS S8 did that to be with Buffy and he got to be in a better place. But even that was the souled version of Angel, so it’s not an exact comparison anyway.


Just because he was ok with the Judge doing his thing and just because he found out about Acathla from Dru, it doesn't mean she was formally or informally in charge of him. She didn’t need to be formally or informally in charge of him. He did what she wanted him to do.


* My quote: Dru wanted to do something (the Judge, Acathla) and Angel worked towards her aims.

This is canon.

kana
23-12-12, 03:47 AM
kana

Other than Angelus did what Drusilla wanted him to do?


Mike, the problem you don't seem to understand is that your whole argument is based upon assumptions. Drusilla wanting to open Acathla is only significant if Angelus gave a rats arse that Dru wanted to do it. Angelus asked Dru for 'intel' and she gave it to him and then Angelus made the decision to open Acathla. There is no proof that Angelus cared that Dru wanted to do it. He asked her for information not her opinion, so it's not a given that he even cared that she wanted to do it. So repeating that she wanted to do it is meaningless.


Angelus: Well, what did it say?

Angelus: What did the Moon tell you? (walks around Dru) Did you have a
vision? Is something coming?

Angelus is clearly interested in the information she has. You're assuming that Angelus is thinking "Wow, Dru really wants to destroy the world" which is pure biased speculation. He asks her what she saw.


Drusilla: Oh, yeah. (whispers) Something terrible. Psst, psst, psst,
psst, psst, psst...

Angelus: Where?


Again, he's only looking for information, there is no indication that Angelus cares or is focused on what she wants, even if he recognizes that she wants to do it. For all we know, Angelus reasons Drusilla is merely talking about her what she 'saw' in the same way, someone might idly be gossiping or talking about a dream. The problem with you Mike is that you have a very limited understanding about how people think and their mind works or at least it's biased in such a way that makes Dru seem like she's in charge.


He did attempt to awaken Acathla, so it wasn’t really an issue.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm arguing that you're assuming that Angelus' desire is based upon Dru's desire to open Acathla. This will always be speculation.


What does this have to do with anything. The Judge couldn’t burn him, so it wasn’t exactly a threat to him anyway.

I was talking about Angelus' so called contribution to raising the Judge. The fact is Dru invited him to come along and Angelus accepted the invitation.


Drusilla: (leans toward Angelus) Psst. We're going to destroy the
world. Want to come?

Then you assume, just because Angelus accepted Dru's 'party invitation' (which is a reasonable anology seen as Dru made it herself.)....


Drusilla: This will be the best party ever.

...that he is only accepting the invitation to please Dru. Speculation! You keep repeating the words "Angelus did what Dru wanted him to do". Now clearly you're arguing that Angelus did these things because Dru wanted to do them. Now if you actually strip it down, it's clear this is sentence steeped in biased speculation. How do we know this? Let's analyze below...



Angelus did what Drusilla wanted him to do.

I wondered how Drusilla got Angelus to do these things, so haven't actually bothered to address the issue. You're just mindlessly repeating yourself.


Other than that’s what actually happened.

No! That's your interpretation. Angelus opened Acathla, but you can't prove it wasn't because he wanted to do it, based upon the information he asked Dru for.





There’s isn’t any reasonable argument against this.

You have no argument. It's an assertion based upon the assumption that Angelus cares about Dru's opinion rather than any useful information she might have. Don't forget the last time she had a vision, it benefited Angelus. He may simply be interested in his own interests. However I'm sure you're simply going to reply to this by saying "But he did what she wanted him to do"


Drusilla even liked the fact that Angel was ‘fighting with Spike’ over her.

So what? Angelus wanted to flirt with Dru.



Here are facts: There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Judge thing if Drusilla didn’t already want to do the Judge thing.


Dru and Spike already did the 'Judge thing'. Angelus was merely invited. He graciously accepted.


There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Acathla thing if Drusilla hadn’t already expressed that she wanted to do the Acathla thing.

There's no proof he wouldn't have. You also can't use the argument that he's never done anything like that prior to that or subsequently to that, because neither has Dru before 1998!!!!! And several years later Dru was still soulless and Angel was busy seeking redemption etc.


Really, the only relevant discussion is what would have happened had Angel refused to do the Judge thing

You mean Angelus refusing the invitation? Well that's not relevant, it's merely more speculation. I'm talking about Angelus motivations here.


or what would have happened had Angel refused to do the Acathla thing because it wasn’t Angel’s decision to do either.


Angelus wouldn't be refusing anything if he chose not open Acathla, because Dru never requested anything. Angelus asked Dru what she saw. If he simply ignored that, then, well... nothing. You can only refuse a request and Dru never asked Angelus to open Acathla.


Also, you try to make it so that Angel was their leader and Drusilla and Spike were subservient to him. You did it again in this post:

That wasn't my intention. You said that this quote:


Angelus: (viciously) We'll have our Armageddon. I swear!

Was proof that Angelus was being subservient. I argued that a leader can use similar language only to prove that he's not necessarily being subservient, nor that he wasn't on board for opening Acathla.



Angel was nominally the leader because Drusilla prefers to have others do such things.

I wouldn't say he's even the leader. Spike, Angelus and Dru all had their own interests so I don't see why it's necessary to try and rank them when there is no clear indication of a ranking system.


So, Spike and later Angel and later Darla were the CEO to her Chairperson.

This is proof of nothing other than your own subjectivity.



And when her interest conflicts, she makes it known.

This contradicts nothing I've said explicitly. Dru is a girl with her own motivations and desires. I've never actually said that Angelus is her leader.



She does this with Spike in BtVS S2 as well, like preventing him from killing Ford.

Spike has a history of trying do what the women he's in love with, wants...




Spike: I love you.

SPIKE
I did this for you. The soul, the changes—it's what you wanted.



And when Darla was no longer useful to her, Dru ditched her leaving her with Lindsey.

Meaning? Dru still made provisions for her safe keeping by informing Lindsey.



Drusilla is more powerful than Angel is, and Spike is against Angel. If Angel did something that displeased her, there’s no indication that she wouldn’t act against him or that she wouldn’t be successful acting against him.

This is all speculation. You actually don't know, how loyal the minions were to Angelus and Dru respectively. And if Angelus decided not to open Acathla, you have no idea what would happen! Hell Angel set Dru on fire and 'got away with it!!!! And we know for a fact this pissed her off


DRU

Although ... didn't care for Angelus setting us on fire.




You missed the point. The only decision Angel made was doing what Drusilla wanted him to do.

Not at all. It's incidental. The only thing that's is 100% canon is that once Angelus found out from Dru that Acathla is in town, he decided to bring him forth. It's speculation that he did it because Dru wanted him to do it. Nothing supports this other than your own speculation and the biased priori that just because Dru wanted it to happen it automatically proves that Angelus only wanted to do it please her. I wish I had objective proof of this from someone who wasn't a Drusilla fan....



He knew what she wanted and did what she wanted.

Again Mike, once again you've failed. Your argument still requires absolute proof that Angelus was interested in Dru's desires rather than the information she can provide him. My argument is perfectly reasonable as we only know that Angelus was interested in what she saw. Even if he knew what she wanted, there is no evidence that he actually cared!



* It is canon that Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing and that Angel knew this. Drusilla brings up the subject.

It's not canon that Dru's desire was motivating him though. You've failed every single time to prove this. You may as well give up.


It’s frankly beyond irritating and it’s getting about tiresome that you continue to refuse to acknowledge this.

Acknowledge what? I talked about 'shared interests' from the start, so I'm not refusing to acknowledge that Dru wanted to open Acathla. The thing you don't seem to get is that just because Dru wanted to bring forth this demon it doesn't mean Angelus was doing it because she wanted him to do it. And by the way Dru wanting to do it, is not proof, it's incidental . Also, Angelus knowing she wanted to it, is only significant if there is proof that he is doing to please her.



These three things are canon:
Drusilla brings up the subject of Acathla,

To Spike, to which Angelus overhears and asks her what she saw.


Drusila obviously wants to open Acathla

Only relevant if Angelus cares about Dru's opinion or is official or otherwise subservient to her.


and Angel knows this; Angel helps to open Acathla.

Angelus didn't help, he opened Acathla! Nothing in canon contradicts this.


You finally acknowledged that Drusilla brought up the subject of Acathla:

I never denied it. I just don't think it matters unless you prove that Angelus desires are based upon Dru's desires. You haven't done this yet.



this is the first time I remember you doing such a thing. Now, you need to acknowledge the last two.

I've already address these issues.


Also, Angel isn’t Drusilla’s leader in BtVS S2.\


Never said he was.


Angel never before or after did such things as the Judge or Acathla.

There is no evidence that before 1998 Dru did either.


Drusilla’s the one who wanted to use the Judge to kill everyone with humanity and was the one who wanted to open Acathla so that the world could go to hell.

You can't prove that Angelus didn't...He never seemed like he was under duress.


Angel liked decadence and liked living in the world as it is.

See above about vampires staying 'static'. You just plain ignored that argument.


There’s zero proof that were not for Dru wanting to do those things that Angel would have wanted to do them.

The Judge doesn't count as that was an 'invitation' and as for Acathla you have no proof he wouldn't have done if he read it in the morning paper.


Angel in BtVS S8 did that to be with Buffy and he got to be in a better place. But even that was the souled version of Angel, so it’s not an exact comparison anyway.

It's not, so let's move on.


She didn’t need to be formally or informally in charge of him. He did what she wanted him to do.

But there is no proof that he did it because she wanted him to do it. Her desires could be incidental. Prove, objectively, otherwise.


* My quote: Dru wanted to do something (the Judge, Acathla) and Angel worked towards her aims.

This is canon.

This assumes they were not also Angelus aims. SPECULATION! As always!

Jack Shaftoe
23-12-12, 04:27 AM
I want to play too. So according to MikeB's argument if a person wants to do something that another person has come up with, it means the first chap is most certainly doing it just to please the other one, not himself. Even if he very much wants it to happen. Gotcha. So for example when Buffy sent Angel to hell she didn't do it to save the world, she did it because Xander had wanted her to (metaphorically or not) do so all along. Therefore Buffy is subservient to Xander. Q.E.D. Or for less dramatic example, if Willow suggest going to the Bronze and Buffy, Xander and Tara agree, this clearly means they do it only to please her.

Seriously, if Dru wanted to activate Acathla so much why did she never tried to find it again (I wonder where the Scoobies hid Acathla, by the way) or plotted another apocalypse? Why wasn't she devastated by Spike's betrayal?

MikeB
28-01-13, 12:33 AM
kana

There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Acathla thing (or the Judge thing) if Drusilla hadn’t already wanted to do it and Angel knew it.

That Angel would have done either if he didn’t already know that Drusilla wanted to them it at-best speculation.


The problem with you Mike is that you have a very limited understanding about how people think and their mind works or at least it's biased in such a way that makes Dru seem like she's in charge. [/b] My pointing out the fact that Angel did the Acathla thing after learning that Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing is merely my pointing out a fact. Angel went along with the Judge thing and does similar here (he had to do more work with the Acathla thing). And what makes you think that you more know how people think and/or how their mind works than I do?


You're just mindlessly repeating yourself. The only way for this not to be true is if I agreed with you. Would you prefer I simply say, “See previous posts.” and not bother further?


Hell Angel set Dru on fire and 'got away with it!!!! She had tried to do worse in BtVS S2. Anyway, was she supposed to heal and then focus on retaliating? She was focused on trying to get Spike back.


I wish I had objective proof of this from someone who wasn't a Drusilla fan.... This is ridiculous. It took many months to get you to acknowledge that Angel already knew that Drusilla wanted to open Acathla before he agreed to do it. Besides, are you an Angel fan more than a Drusilla fan? Your comment also implies that you’re not a Drusilla fan.


It's not canon that Dru's desire was motivating him though. You've failed every single time to prove this. You may as well give up. If that’s what you actually want, you could have simply said, “Let’s agree to disagree.”


Angelus didn't help, he opened Acathla! Nothing in canon contradicts this. He used his blood, said the spell, and pulled the sword out. The information that Acathla was there came from Drusilla and Drusilla actually got the info on how to open Acathla.


My quote: You finally acknowledged that Drusilla brought up the subject of Acathla:

I never denied it. Yes, you did. For at least many months.


My quote: Angel liked decadence and liked living in the world as it is.

See above about vampires staying 'static'. You just plain ignored that argument. Angel got a big mansion. In AtS he got a huge 68-room hotel as his home.

Anyway, it seems we should agree to disagree.



Jack Shaftoe


if Dru wanted to activate Acathla so much why did she never tried to find it again (I wonder where the Scoobies hid Acathla, by the way) Acathla was activated already and there’s no proof that it could be ‘opened’ again.


or plotted another apocalypse? The Judge and Acathla were unique things. The only other things that later happened that were ‘similar’ are Glory’s trying to usethe Key to open the dimensions and go home (Drusilla didn’t even know about the Key), and the Twilight thing, which Drusilla would have been dusted in.


Why wasn't she devastated by Spike's betrayal? Um, she was. But she was focused on his being in love with Buffy and thinking about Buffy all the time.

kana
28-01-13, 11:49 PM
kana

There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Acathla thing (or the Judge thing) if Drusilla hadn’t already wanted to do it and Angel knew it.

Again, Mike, I'm slightly irked that you haven't taken anything I've said into consideration. Do I actually have to repeat myself, because I've already directly addressed this issue?


There's no proof he wouldn't have. You also can't use the argument that he's never done anything like that prior to that or subsequently to that, because neither has Dru before 1998!!!!! And several years later Dru was still soulless and Angel was busy seeking redemption etc.



That Angel would have done either if he didn’t already know that Drusilla wanted to them it at-best speculation.

Mike, how many times do I have to go through this with you? The indication that Angelus was interested in the information that Dru had is in the dialogue. This is the definitive canon proof. There is no proof in canon that states Angelus cared about what Dru wanted, so Dru's desires are irrelevant unless you can prove that Angelus' decision was based on Dru wanting to do it rather than her simply giving him the information. Why do you keep ignoring this? I don't mind you disagreeing but at least come up with decent enough counter-argument rather than ignoring parts of my argument and hope that I'll forget about them. How about you actually address my posts properly for once?


My pointing out the fact that Angel did the Acathla thing after learning that Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing is merely my pointing out a fact.

My argument is that, this is only relevant if Angelus cared. Did you even read my last post? Angelus asked Dru for information, therefore he was interested in.....information! I could easily say (and I wouldn't be wrong in saying this): once Angelus found out that Acathla was in Sunnydale (from Dru), he decided to open it.


Angel went along with the Judge thing and does similar here (he had to do more work with the Acathla thing).

Again, why do I have to repeat myself? The two situations are very different. The 'Judge thing' as yo call it, was Drusilla's plan. Angelus made the decision to open Acathla. The point you seem to argue is that he made that decision to please Dru. This will always be your interpretation unless you come up with proof otherwise.


And what makes you think that you more know how people think and/or how their mind works than I do?

Your posts. I at least understand that not all people think in the same way I do, so allow for that margin of of error on my part. I at least, base my arguments on what the characters say rather make biased assumptions.



The only way for this not to be true is if I agreed with you. Would you prefer I simply say, “See previous posts.” and not bother further?

No, all you have to do is not miss out massive parts of my posts and actually address them, then I can actually see why you disagree. You repeating yourself adds nothing to this debate, it's lazy, irratating and demonstrates a lack of imagination in how you express yourself. I'm happy for people to disagree with me, as long as they say why they are doing it. If they can't they can simply say, "Let's agree to disagree".


She had tried to do worse in BtVS S2.

What do you mean? And how does that relate to what I said to you?


Anyway, was she supposed to heal and then focus on retaliating? She was focused on trying to get Spike back.

Well Darla planned on getting revenge on Angel, and couldn't Dru have got revenge after Spike rejected her?


This is ridiculous. It took many months to get you to acknowledge that Angel already knew that Drusilla wanted to open Acathla before he agreed to do it.

I've already talked about this Mike. It's only significant if Angelus cared. If you cannot prove that, then it's not worth mentioning.


Besides, are you an Angel fan more than a Drusilla fan? Your comment also implies that you’re not a Drusilla fan.

Incidently, I was an Angel fan on the televised series but my current like or dislike of him depends on where they take his character. In any respect, I don't see how my posts indicate I'm not a Drusilla fan. I said that I didn't think that either Angelus or Dru were in charge. My problem is with your logic, it doesn't have to do with my like or dislike of Drusilla.


If that’s what you actually want, you could have simply said, “Let’s agree to disagree.”

Mike, you're the one who is mindlessly repeating themselves and ignoring parts of my posts that qualify my arguments. I'm asking you to qualify your statements or at least admit that it's your personal interpretation that Angelus tried to open Acathla because she wanted to do it.


He used his blood, said the spell, and pulled the sword out.

Which opened Acathla


The information that Acathla was there came from Drusilla

Yes, because Angelus cannot make a decision based on information he doesn't know.



and Drusilla actually got the info on how to open Acathla.

Which incidentally helped Angelus to open Acathla.



Yes, you did. For at least many months.

Did I? Give me an example. Was it in this thread?



Angel got a big mansion. In AtS he got a huge 68-room hotel as his home.

Did I say every trait has to change?



Anyway, it seems we should agree to disagree.

We could but the only thing that irks me is that you ignore many relevant parts of my post and it makes it difficult to continue the flow of the debate. I don't understand why it's so difficult for you articulate why you disagree with parts of my post.

For example:

I said: [There was no] indication that Angelus was trying to please Dru

Your argument was the fact that he did it was proof of that.

I countered with the argument that still made an assumption that he was doing to for Dru. I also went on to say this very important statement:


Drusilla wanting to open Acathla is only significant if Angelus gave a rats arse that Dru wanted to do it. Angelus asked Dru for 'intel' and she gave it to him and then Angelus made the decision to open Acathla. There is no proof that Angelus cared that Dru wanted to do it. He asked her for information not her opinion, so it's not a given that he even cared that she wanted to do it. So repeating that she wanted to do it is meaningless.

And how did you reply?


There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Acathla thing (or the Judge thing) if Drusilla hadn’t already [B]wanted to do it and Angel knew it.

That Angel would have done either if he didn’t already know that Drusilla wanted to them it at-best speculation.

My pointing out the fact that Angel did the Acathla thing after learning that Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing is merely my pointing out a fact.

Do you not see how my previous post already deals with this argument? If my counter-argument is flawed, then explain how. I talked at great length about the relevance of Angelus acknowledging Dru's desires, yet you post as if I never addressed this.

We can agree to disagree if you like, but I'm still at a loss why you ignore relevant arguments. I've given you a simple request, Mike, more than once. If you can't even address that then maybe we shouldn't bother debating, period.

MikeB
20-02-13, 05:19 AM
kana

My quote: "There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Acathla thing (or the Judge thing) if Drusilla hadn’t already wanted to do it and Angel knew it.

That Angel would have done either if he didn’t already know that Drusilla wanted to them it at-best speculation."

This will always be true. If you disagree, we should agree to disagree.


Also, there is no proof that Angel doesn’t care what Dru thinks and there’s no proof that Angel wouldn’t do the Acathla thing simply because Drusilla wanted to do it.

What is canon is that after knowing Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, that’s what Angel worked on doing.


All your arguments are based on the speculation that Angel maybe didn’t care what Drusilla wanted to do.

kana
09-03-13, 04:54 PM
No offense Mike, but the reason this debate always goes round in circles, is because you ignore my counter-arguments and, once again repeat yourself. This makes it extremely difficult for the debate to move forward. If you actually read my posts properly, you'll see that I've already addressed your arguments. If you disagree with my counter-arguments, would you be so kind as to explain why?

You said:



kana

My quote: "There’s no proof that Angel would have done the Acathla thing (or the Judge thing) if Drusilla hadn’t already wanted to do it and Angel knew it.

That Angel would have done either if he didn’t already know that Drusilla wanted to them it at-best speculation."



However I've ready dealt with this directly by saying:
There's no proof he wouldn't have. You also can't use the argument that he's never done anything like that prior to that or subsequently to that, because neither has Dru before 1998!!!!! And several years later Dru was still soulless and Angel was busy seeking redemption etc.





This will always be true. If you disagree, we should agree to disagree.

But the problem is, you haven't stated why you disagree with my counter-argument.



Also, there is no proof that Angel doesn’t care what Dru thinks and there’s no proof that Angel wouldn’t do the Acathla thing simply because Drusilla wanted to do it.

Mike, you cannot qualify an argument with the absence of proof. I'm arguing that Angelus was interested in the information Dru had. My qualification was the fact that he asked Dru for that information. What is your so called proof that the only reason he's asking is because he's trying to please Dru? I asked you this several times and I cannot understand why you simply cannot give a straight forward answer to a straight forward question.


What is canon is that after knowing Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, that’s what Angel worked on doing.

You're merely playing with words now. I can play that game too. "After Angelus asked Dru for information about Acathla, he decided to awaken him" Is that false?





All your arguments are based on the speculation that Angel maybe didn’t care what Drusilla wanted to do.

I'm not speculating anything Mike. I'm being objective and adhering only to the facts. Drusilla was stating information to Spike, Angelus asked for that information. When did he indicate he was doing it to please her? You're the one speculating, not me.

MikeB
02-04-13, 01:06 AM
kana

Here are the facts:

1) Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing and informed Angel (and Spike?) that Acathla was in town.

2) Angel then works on opening Acathla.


* You're arguments that Angel may not care what Drusilla wants and that Angel may have wanted to do the Acathla thing even if Drusilla never brought it up is simply your speculating.


* I never said it's impossible that Angel would have wanted to the Acathla thing if he hadn't already known Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing.


* Anyway, this is a Drusilla's strength, power, and fighting ability thread. Drusilla's the reason the "opening Acathla" plan started and she's the one who got the info out of Giles.

kana
14-04-13, 03:57 PM
kana

Here are the facts:

1) Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing and informed Angel (and Spike?) that Acathla was in town.

What actually happened, is that Dru was telling Spike about Acathla and Angelus walked in and overheard and asked her what she 'saw'. Then she told him.


2) Angel then works on opening Acathla.

Yes after he found out information from Dru after he asked her. Drusilla's opinion or desires were never discussed, so as far as I'm concerned it's speculation that her wanting to do it had anything to do with Angelus' decision.



* You're arguments that Angel may not care what Drusilla wants and that Angel may have wanted to do the Acathla thing even if Drusilla never brought it up is simply your speculating.


Once again, Mike, you're trying to use your typical 'absence of proof=proof' argument, which doesn't work. I'm not arguing that Angelus didn't care I'm arguing there is no proof that he cared what Dru wants. So therefore you have to prove that he did care or at least demonstrate what indicates that he cares. My argument that he was interested in the information Dru had was based on the dialogue, something I've already demonstrated. Your argument that he cared about Dru's wishes, is based upon what, besides biased speculation. The burden of proof is therefore upon you.


* I never said it's impossible that Angel would have wanted to the Acathla thing if he hadn't already known Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing.

I never argued what would happen if he found out another way, that was you. I'm arguing about what did happen, not what would happen.



* Anyway, this is a Drusilla's strength, power, and fighting ability thread.

You're the one who brought up the argument that Angelus was 'merely doing what Dru wanted him to do'. I was responding to that argument.




Drusilla's the reason the "opening Acathla" plan started and she's the one who got the info out of Giles.

I never denied Drusilla's importance, nor her power. I just think you believe she has more influence than she actually does.

A lot of people claim that Dru was pretty low down the chain of command within the Fanged Four, but I don't think the chain of command was all that formal. Dru seemed to see the group as a family, so I don't see the point in trying to use some sort of ranking system when there is little evidence such a system existed in Dru's mind. We rarely if at all see any evidence that the rest of the Fanged Four looked to Dru as a leader or thought of themselves as subordinates, but that doesn't mean she saw Darla and Angelus formally as their leaders, perhaps more like parents. Does this mean that Dru isn't totally self-possessed in Season 2 of Ats? Of course not. I doubt that Darla could have made Dru do anything she didn't want to do and I think she doesn't seem to mind Darla (and perhaps others) talk to her as if she were a child, because there is something childlike about her, but doesn't detract from from the fact in anyway about how deadly she is.

MikeB
14-05-13, 02:25 AM
kana

I consider we should probably agree to disagree about the Acathla thing.


A lot of people claim that Dru was pretty low down the chain of command within the Fanged Four, but I don't think the chain of command was all that formal. Back in the late 1800s, Darla was their formal leader, though Spike considered Angel the leader.

In BtVS S2, Spike and Dru were the leaders until they went to the mansion. But Angel still did whatever Dru wanted. Even Angel's not wanting to bring Spike along at the end of "I Only Have Eyes For You" (2.19) was accomplished by reasoning with Dru that the sun was soon to be up and bringing Spike could have risked them all.

kana
24-05-13, 10:53 PM
kana
I consider we should probably agree to disagree about the Acathla thing.

That's fine. The main reason behind the contention was that you were using it as one of your arguments that Angelus was merely doing what Drusilla wanted him to do. I wanted 100% proof of this, which so far you had been unable to provide.



Back in the late 1800s, Darla was their formal leader, though Spike considered Angel the leader.

It's ambiguous. Darla seemed to have a hold of the group, in the same way a matriarch might 'command her brood', at least when Angel was ensoulled. However, prior to that it wasn't clear who was the leader. They all had complex relationships with each other. Obviously Darla had some kind of hold over Angelus as she sired him, but Spike was following Angelus as a mentor and Dru was only really adhering to what Darla wanted if it served her purpose (like killing people!) then it doesn't make for a strong and clear hierarchical model. I'll always consider, the 'familial' model as the most fitting for that reason.


In BtVS S2, Spike and Dru were the leaders until they went to the mansion. But Angel still did whatever Dru wanted. Even Angel's not wanting to bring Spike along at the end of "I Only Have Eyes For You" (2.19) was accomplished by reasoning with Dru that the sun was soon to be up and bringing Spike could have risked them all.

Angelus simply explaining himself is hardly him bargaining or pleading with Dru. If anything it was just an excuse to have a dig at Spike, in front of Dru, demonstrating what a liability he is.

1701EarlGrey
27-05-13, 07:35 PM
Anyways, I've always considered Drusilla to be the most powerful female vampire in the Buffyverse.

She gets visions, she's super strong and deadly, she killed Kendra who relatively easily whupped Angel, and she was able to get Spike and Angel to do what she wanted them to do.

Sorry, I like Drusilla she is fascinating character and one of the best vampiress in any fiction but... she is not a good fighter. She never displayed any martial art skills. And yes she defeated Kendra thanks to mind powers not because she was better fighter. She was using those "hypno beams" for a reason you know... She could be physically more powerful that Kendra but I'm sure that she is not better fighter, not even close. As for Kendra vs. Angel - well, he didn't even want to fight back.

So, no I don't see any martial art skills here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soplPURIiME)dear Drusila.

MikeB
01-07-13, 11:44 PM
kana


I wanted 100% proof of this, which so far you had been unable to provide. If something were 100%, I’d simply say its canon and not bother to further explain anything. Anything and everything that is even remotely ambiguous isn’t “100%”. The fact is Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing, expressed she wanted to do it, and Angel worked on accomplishing that.


* The way it is depicted in the flashbacks, Darla was the leader of ‘Darla and Angel’ and then was the leader of ‘Darla, Angel, and Drusilla’. She was still the leader of ‘Darla, Angel, Drusilla, and Spike’ but Spike seems to consider Angel the leader -- or at least Angel is the one whom he actually listens to.

The ambiguity comes when one considers if some were subordinate to others. Angel seems obviously subordinate to Darla and the flashbacks show Darla considering Drusilla should be subordinate to her but Dru not necessarily thinking that way. With Spike, we only see in the first year that Angel considered Spike subordinate to him.


My quote: “In BtVS S2, Spike and Dru were the leaders until they went to the mansion. But Angel still did whatever Dru wanted. Even Angel's not wanting to bring Spike along at the end of "I Only Have Eyes For You" (2.19) was accomplished by reasoning with Dru that the sun was soon to be up and bringing Spike could have risked them all.”

Angelus simply explaining himself is hardly him bargaining or pleading with Dru. If anything it was just an excuse to have a dig at Spike, in front of Dru, demonstrating what a liability he is. I didn’t imply Angel had to plead with Dru. The fact is that Angel had to give a reasonable reason to Dru why Spike shouldn’t come with them.

By the way, Angel did nothing about “Passion” (2.17) in which Dru prioritized Spike over Angel once Buffy showed up. Dru knows Spike’s wheelchair-bound and Angel knows she knows that. He knows they left him with a “brassed off” Slayer who was fervently trying to dust him.



1701EarlGrey


[Drusilla] is not a good fighter. She never displayed any martial art skills. And yes she defeated Kendra thanks to mind powers not because she was better fighter. She was using those "hypno beams" for a reason you know... She could be physically more powerful that Kendra but I'm sure that she is not better fighter, not even close. Drusilla was beating Spike until she got distracted by Angel pulling the sword out of Acathla. And in the comics she uses weapons well and uses her legs in fighting. I remember Kendra only got like one hit on Dru.


As for Kendra vs. Angel - well, he didn't even want to fight back. That’s simply untrue. Angel assumed she was one of the assassins trying to kill Buffy. Plus, Kendra seemed to be trying to kill him. You may as well try to argue that Buffy didn’t even want to fight Kendra.

kana
02-07-13, 03:27 PM
kana
If something were 100%, I’d simply say its canon and not bother to further explain anything.

To be honest you're not doing much more than that anyway. The thing that matters most is whether or not Angelus is focusing on the information that Drusilla has, or focusing more on her to desire to awaken Acathla. Because you're merely speculating the latter, then most of your argument is based upon that speculation. You also can't say I'm speculating because I'm not arguing that Angelus was definitely focusing on the information, so therefore the burden of proof is upon you. I'm basing my argument on fact! Angelus asks for information so therefore, the only thing we know is that he's interested in the information Dru has. Dialogue supports this, nothing supports what you're saying. Unless you can prove that Angelus was interested in anything other than the intel, you will never have a decent argument.


Anything and everything that is even remotely ambiguous isn’t “100%”. The fact is Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing, expressed she wanted to do it, and Angel worked on accomplishing that.

Or Angelus overheard Dru and Spike talking, found out that Acathla was in town and decided to bring him forth. This says very little about Dru's sway within the group, unless you base it upon your rather biased assumptions, something I'm not willing to do. My argument that Angelus is interested in the information that Dru has, is based upon fact and dialogue. Dru wanting to do it as well is incidental unless proven otherwise. In short, I've got back up for my argument and you don't, simple!


* The way it is depicted in the flashbacks, Darla was the leader of ‘Darla and Angel’

I'd say that Darla held some sway over Angelus to a degree, but I wouldn't say she was formally or informally the leader of the two of them. I don't remember Darla bossing Angelus around. Angelus also sired Drusilla against Darla's wishes and didn't seem to care about disrespecting the Master.


and then was the leader of ‘Darla, Angel, and Drusilla’.

Can you give specific examples of how this is demonstrated?


She was still the leader of ‘Darla, Angel, Drusilla, and Spike’ but Spike seems to consider Angel the leader -- or at least Angel is the one whom he actually listens to.

I wouldn't say it's that clear cut. In the TGIQ, there is no clear leader. In the mine-shaft, we don't see Angelus taking any orders from Darla and even after Angel gets his soul back, there isn't anything to suggest that Angel is following Darla for example in the rebellion. We also have to keep his mind that Angel was trying to prove himself to Darla rather than anyone else, which is more analogous with someone trying to convince their ex to take them back. Not much to do with leadership there.


The ambiguity comes when one considers if some were subordinate to others. Angel seems obviously subordinate to Darla

Again, can I have specific examples to demonstrate this?


and the flashbacks show Darla considering Drusilla should be subordinate to her but Dru not necessarily thinking that way.

Drusilla was arguably more subservient than Angelus ever was, but I agree that Dru didn't necessarily view it that way. As I've said before she likes to 'play the child' and I can give examples of this if you wish, such as Darla asking Dru to kill things and Dru saying ok but before wondering if Angel(us) would be cross if they killed without him.


With Spike, we only see in the first year that Angel considered Spike subordinate to him.

I wouldn't even go that far. I think he saw him as a mentor/comrade/rival.



I didn’t imply Angel had to plead with Dru. The fact is that Angel had to give a reasonable reason to Dru why Spike shouldn’t come with them.

There's no evidence, he had to do anything. He was making a cheap shot at Spike.


By the way, Angel did nothing about “Passion” (2.17) in which Dru prioritized Spike over Angel once Buffy showed up. Dru knows Spike’s wheelchair-bound and Angel knows she knows that. He knows they left him with a “brassed off” Slayer who was fervently trying to dust him.


There is little evidence Angelus cared enough to be punitive. Angelus never showed he felt any feelings of animosity or betrayal for that.

1701EarlGrey
22-07-13, 12:34 AM
kana
1701EarlGrey

Drusilla was beating Spike until she got distracted by Angel pulling the sword out of Acathla. And in the comics she uses weapons well and uses her legs in fighting. I remember Kendra only got like one hit on Dru.

That’s simply untrue. Angel assumed she was one of the assassins trying to kill Buffy. Plus, Kendra seemed to be trying to kill him. You may as well try to argue that Buffy didn’t even want to fight Kendra.

Really? Angel: Who are you? If you tell me what I need to know I won't hurt you. It's clear that he didn't want to fight, he didn't want to hurt her and he didn't know who she was! Also she taken him by surprise, attacked when he interrogated Willy and wasn't ready or willing to fight.

Spike also didn't want hurt Dru when they fought: Spike: I don't want to hurt you, baby.. Also Kendra had one hit on Dru because after that Dru used her unfair advantage: mind powers.

And I wasn't talking about comic, I was talking about TV series.

MikeB
24-07-13, 03:23 AM
kana

I guess I’m going to limit the discussion of the ‘Fanged 3’ and the ‘Fanged 4’ to Drusilla’s power and position within them.


* This thread is about “Drusilla's strength, power, and fighting ability”. She wanted to open Acathla and was able to get Angel to help in that endeavor.

In “Surprise” (2.13), we already saw Drusilla considering it’d be fun to kill everyone with humanity. In “Innocence” (2.14), we saw Angel was more interested in hurting Buffy specifically but then still went along with Drusilla wanting to use the Judge.

Angelus was never about chaos or mass death or whatever. He was more interested in causing pain to a single individual. Acathla was never Angelus’ style – it was something that Drusilla would be interested in. Even in the flashbacks, we see Drusilla be excited about mass slaughter and chaos (Romania 1898, the Boxer Rebellion stuff) while Angelus was someone who liked to avoid mobs and such (flashback of “Fool For Love” (5.07)).

There’s nothing before or after “Becoming” (2.21-2) which suggests Angelus would be interested in doing something like Acathla.

The reasonable conclusion is that just as with the Judge, Angelus went along because it was something Drusilla wanted to do.


* Had Drusilla not wanted to open Acathla, it’s not certain Angelus would have wanted to open Acathla and, if anything, most indicates he would simply want to continue mentally torturing Buffy and/or Spike.


* For the “Fanged 3”, we simply don’t have much information. We literally have one flashback and it’s the time literally minutes before Dru sires Spike. Drusilla ‘mocks’ Darla by calling her ‘grandmother’ and then tells Darla “not to be cross” with her because one day Dru could be her mother. Dru is upset that Angel isn’t paying as much attention to her as he used to and that his head is full of Darla, so then Dru makes William.


* For the “Fanged 4”, there aren’t much flashbacks, but her position seems more privileged than in the ‘Fanged 3’. She has both Angel and Spike and both ‘fight over’ her until sometime in 1896 or before when Angel/Darla and Spike/Dru are somewhat paired off.


* Drusilla always seems to respect Angel more than she respects Darla.


* For “I Only Have Eyes For You” (1.19), Drusilla wanted to bring Spike along and Angel had to give a reasonable reason why Spike shouldn’t come along. It’s fact Angel ‘had to do something’ in order for Dru to consider Spike should stay behind.


* My point about “Passion” (2.17) and “Innocence” (2.14) is that when Buffy was a danger, Dru left Angel on his own and that Angel never did anything about that.

And, again, in “Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered” (2.16), Angel is clearly intimidated by Dru. She tosses him into a tree, threatens him if he dares to touch Xander again, and then ignores him and is about to sire Xander mere feet from where Angel is.


* Over in AtS, she sires Darla mere feet from where Angel is and kills a bunch of people in Los Angeles. The most he does to her is set her afire seconds from an active fire hydrant with an axe on the path to the fire hydrant.


* Over in BtVS, he tries to plead with Dru to have her and Spike leave town before things get messy and she simply ignores him.


* Meanwhile when she considers Angel enough of a nuisance for her, she has no problem with the idea of killing him (“Surprise” (2.13)). With Angel toward her, even in A&F, he doesn’t even want to pursue her even though she tried to Lorophage Faith and him (which he considered bad) and then left them to that ‘mob’ that was trying to kill them.



1701EarlGrey

* The comics are still canon and therefore relevant in discussions.


* Kendra got one hit on Angel when he was unawares.


Angel: Who are you? If you tell me what I need to know I won't hurt you. If anything, that was delusional bravado on Angel’s part. Kendra relatively easily whupped him. There is zero evidence that Angel was actually ‘going easy’ on her.


Spike also didn't want hurt Dru when they fought: Spike: I don't want to hurt you, baby.. You skip his next line after he struck her to the ground, “Doesn’t mean I won’t.”


Also Kendra had one hit on Dru because after that Dru used her unfair advantage: mind powers. Drusilla could have simply either squeezed harder, snapped Kendra’s neck, or shove her hand through Kendra. Once Kendra was immobilized, she was dead no matter the method Dru decided.

1701EarlGrey
24-07-13, 10:18 PM
kana

1701EarlGrey

* The comics are still canon and therefore relevant in discussions.


* Kendra got one hit on Angel when he was unawares.

If anything, that was delusional bravado on Angel’s part. Kendra relatively easily whupped him. There is zero evidence that Angel was actually ‘going easy’ on her.

You skip his next line after he struck her to the ground, “Doesn’t mean I won’t.”

Drusilla could have simply either squeezed harder, snapped Kendra’s neck, or shove her hand through Kendra. Once Kendra was immobilized, she was dead no matter the method Dru decided.

I don't care much about comics, I didn't even read A&F. I was talking about TV series and there Drusilia was far from being impressive fighter - she never showed any martial art skills. Also: what was so great about Dru's fighting skills? Did she defeated Angel, Faith or anyone with some impressive combat feats?

One well placed punch from the Slayer can be enough considering that Slayers can do this with bare hands:
524

I didn't say anything about Angel going easy’ on her. I said that he didn't want to fight, and indeed he didn't want it. I also said that he was attacked when he was completely unprepared to fight, this is also a fact. Also Dru would never beat Kendra in fair and square fist fight, so Kendra defeating is completely irrelevant.

“Doesn’t mean I won’t.” - yes, and he knock her out

Shove her hand through Kendra? :s What? Did we saw this same show? Since when vampires are strong enough to punch holes in Slayers. :lol: Also: as I said Dru would never beat Kendra in fair fight.

MikeB
26-08-13, 10:07 PM
I don't care much about comics, I didn't even read A&F. Well, then you're discussing the topic without having full knowledge of what you're discussing.


I was talking about TV series and there Drusilia was far from being impressive fighter - she never showed any martial art skills. She easily beat Kendra and was beating Spike before being distracting by Angel's pulling the sword out of Acathla.


Also: what was so great about Dru's fighting skills? Did she defeated Angel, Faith or anyone with some impressive combat feats? I consider she was beating him in "Reunion" (A 2.10?). She fought Faith in A&F.


One well placed punch from the Slayer can be enough considering that Slayers can do this with bare hands: Not even Buffy's ever killed a vampire with a single punch.


I didn't say anything about Angel going easy’ on her. I said that he didn't want to fight, and indeed he didn't want it. That may be true, but Drusilla didn't want to kill him.


I also said that he was attacked when he was completely unprepared to fight, this is also a fact. Is he supposed to train before random fights with things or people that want to kill him?


Also Dru would never beat Kendra in fair and square fist fight, According to what. After immobilizing Kendra, Dru could have simply snapped her neck.


so Kendra defeating is completely irrelevant. It is irrelevant that the Master killed Buffy? That Dracula initially could hypnotize Buffy?


“Doesn’t mean I won’t.” - yes, and he knock her out He didn't knock her out.


Since when vampires are strong enough to punch holes in Slayers. Spike in "Normal Again" (6.17) punched a hole through a demon.

KingofCretins
26-08-13, 10:48 PM
Honestly, use of mind control/hypnosis isn't really "winning" a fight, it's avoiding a fight. It's AFKing out of the proverbial battleground, it's the WWE champ getting themselves DQ'd by using a steel chair so they don't get pinned. I mean, just for argument's sake, if when their respective versions of the Great Roofie Spirit possessed Xander or later RJ, and they had simply seduced a Drusilla into a vulnerable position and staked her... would you consider that an indicator of their martial prowess? I sure wouldn't. It's crafty, it works, but it's not skill.

And sort of to that point, Drusilla went ahead and hypnotized Kendra for only one of two reasons -- a) she didn't think she could defeat her without it, or b) she couldn't be arsed to, maybe because of their timetable. But in that case, it was Indiana Jones pulling out his revolver to kill the guy with the scimitars.

Vampire in Rug
26-08-13, 10:58 PM
Well, then you're discussing the topic without having full knowledge of what you're discussing.

With all due respect, you think that Spike was the winner when Angel and Spike fought in the episode In the Dark, so I don't think it's entirely fair or reasonable for you to criticize other people's knowledge of what they are discussing.


She easily beat Kendra and was beating Spike before being distracting by Angel's pulling the sword out of Acathla.

Drusilla beat Kendra due to hypnosis. Getting distracted mid-battle is not an excuse, Spike defeated Drusilla. The Chinese Slayer was beating Spike until she got distracted by the explosion. Nikki was beating Spike until she got distracted by the dark tunnel. Getting distracted is not an excuse for losing a fight, it's ridiculous that you'd give the win to Drusilla when she fought Spike.


After immobilizing Kendra, Dru could have simply snapped her neck.

A struggling Slayer won't stay immobilized for long, hence the need to employ hypnosis on her. I'd have to watch the episode again to see exactly how pinned Kendra was before Dru used hypnosis. Snapping somebody's neck would likely require one to use both hands, in which case Kendra wouldn't be immobilized any longer unless Dru used hypnosis.


He didn't knock her out.

No, he put her in a choke hold which really makes no sense since she's a vampire but that's what happened. A choke hold shouldn't immobilize a vampire, but that's how Spike immobalized her.

No, he didn't snap her neck or use "magic dust" on her like I've seen you claim in other threads. He didn't do a spell to incapacitate her -nor did he do a spell to contain Acathla.


Spike in "Normal Again" (6.17) punched a hole through a demon.

I remember Buffy punching a hole through a demon, I don't remember Spike doing it. Which demon was it? In any case, not all demons are equal.

vampmogs
27-08-13, 01:54 AM
Spike punched a hole through a demon in Dead Things, not Normal Again. It was one of the cloaked demons making time all wonky.

kana
13-09-13, 12:32 AM
One of the issues I have with this is that we are not dealing with a martial arts tournament. There are no rules, therefore we cannot take anything for granted.

Of course intentions, state of mind and circumstances matter in battle, of course they do. However we cannot always measure these things, so it becomes almost pointless to speculate.

I'm not in the slightest bit interested as to why Drusilla resorted to using her hypnotic abilities. It's a testament to her fighting skills that she can hold her own against Slayers and reasonable powerful vampires anyway. Having her psychic abilities simply makes her a more formidable opponent and as I've said, it' not a martial arts tournament, so I'm hardly going to mark her down for 'cheating', I mean, it wasn't as if Kendra was kicking her arse before she hypnotized her.

As for the 'look at the list of opponents I've defeated' argument? I loathe it. Simply because it ignores circumstance. By the same logic Riley Finn could take Buffy in a fight if he wanted to, seen as he easily killed a vampire who almost killed Buffy.

My point is, while I'd be reluctant to bet on Andrew winning a fist fight against say a full powered Illyria, I don't take too much for granted in terms of battles and fights, because a) plot always wins and b) (and from a more Watsonian perspective) each combatant has different strengths and weaknesses. So say for example Spike was able to beat Buffy and Buffy was able to beat Faith, it doesn't mean that Spike would automatically win against Faith. Each fight is different and people I find always make excuses for the fighter who loses if it goes against their argument or use the 'win' (sometimes the win isn't all that decisive).


This thread is about “Drusilla's strength, power, and fighting ability”. She wanted to open Acathla and was able to get Angel to help in that endeavor.

Able to get Angel to help in the endeavor? Seriously? The problem is in these debates is that you 'flip flop' words around to add credence to your opinion, but it's just that, an opinion. I've asked you, very directly, to give me examples of how Dru got Angel to do it. You couldn't give one example and simply resorted to repeating yourself. "Angel did what she wanted him to do". Other than a shocking abuse of the copy and paste tool, what credence is there to your argument?


In “Surprise” (2.13), we already saw Drusilla considering it’d be fun to kill everyone with humanity. In “Innocence” (2.14), we saw Angel was more interested in hurting Buffy specifically but then still went along with Drusilla wanting to use the Judge.

No he went along with Spike and Drusilla. He was addressing both of them when he talked about tormenting Buffy. This said, Angelus seemed perfectly OK with the Judge doing his thing.



Angelus was never about chaos or mass death or whatever. He was more interested in causing pain to a single individual. Acathla was never Angelus’ style – it was something that Drusilla would be interested in. Even in the flashbacks, we see Drusilla be excited about mass slaughter and chaos (Romania 1898, the Boxer Rebellion stuff) while Angelus was someone who liked to avoid mobs and such (flashback of “Fool For Love” (5.07)).

As I keep saying, vampires don't necessarily stay static. Just because Angelus wanted to diversify his portfolio of evil, it doesn't mean he's doing it to please Dru.


There’s nothing before or after “Becoming” (2.21-2) which suggests Angelus would be interested in doing something like Acathla.

This is starting to grate, because I've already addressed this.


There's no proof he wouldn't have. You also can't use the argument that he's never done anything like that prior to that or subsequently to that, because neither has Dru before 1998!!!!! And several years later Dru was still soulless and Angel was busy seeking redemption etc.


Again, you simply ignored that argument. You didn't bother quoting it or addressing it. Now, you may accuse me of repeating myself as well, but unfortunately, in my case it's necessary, because you miss out vital parts of my post and repeat yourself. I try to address all your arguments directly, therefore there is no excuse for you repeating yourself.


The reasonable conclusion is that just as with the Judge, Angelus went along because it was something Drusilla wanted to do.

Not at all. Many people on this (http://buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18473)thread gave many other viable reasons.


* Had Drusilla not wanted to open Acathla, it’s not certain Angelus would have wanted to open Acathla and, if anything, most indicates he would simply want to continue mentally torturing Buffy and/or Spike.

Again we don't know. I'm not speculating one way or the other.


* For the “Fanged 3”, we simply don’t have much information....

Exactly, so it's barely worth commenting on.


* For the “Fanged 4”, there aren’t much flashbacks, but her position seems more privileged than in the ‘Fanged 3’. She has both Angel and Spike and both ‘fight over’ her until sometime in 1896 or before when Angel/Darla and Spike/Dru are somewhat paired off.

Hmm, I don't think it means that much. It's not as if she used this to her advantage.


* Drusilla always seems to respect Angel more than she respects Darla.

Not entirely sure, but I certainly think she was a 'Daddy's Girl' back in the day.


* For “I Only Have Eyes For You” (1.19), Drusilla wanted to bring Spike along and Angel had to give a reasonable reason why Spike shouldn’t come along. It’s fact Angel ‘had to do something’ in order for Dru to consider Spike should stay behind.

I've already addressed this argument.


* My point about “Passion” (2.17) and “Innocence” (2.14) is that when Buffy was a danger, Dru left Angel on his own and that Angel never did anything about that.

Again, I've addressed this as well. I find it interesting that you seem to think that it's significant that Angelus never addressed Dru not taking better care of him, but not that Angel literally set fire to Dru and wasn't bothered at all about the reprisal? As I said above, we know for a fact that Dru wasn't happy about what Angel did, yet she did nothing about it yet there is no evidence that Angelus cared about Dru not saving him.


And, again, in “Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered” (2.16), Angel is clearly intimidated by Dru. She tosses him into a tree, threatens him if he dares to touch Xander again, and then ignores him and is about to sire Xander mere feet from where Angel is.

This makes little sense to me. Why would Angel be intimidated? He's openly stated how dangerous Spike is, yet has never been intimidated by him. The fact that he angrily stated 'He wasn't amused by what Dru was doing doesn't strike me as someone who is intimidated or subservient.

Angel simply writes of Dru as being crazy and doesn't mind letting her know it. Keep in mind though, it's difficult to see the expression on Angel's face in the vampire visage, but he doesn't run away. He's watching the whole thing, probably seeing if he can make sense of what was going on. In any respect, he still arrogantly mocks Dru when she can't get into the house so it's not as if he's scared of her.


* Over in AtS, she sires Darla mere feet from where Angel is and kills a bunch of people in Los Angeles. The most he does to her is set her afire seconds from an active fire hydrant with an axe on the path to the fire hydrant.

Is that because he's scared of her though? It seems that Angel struggles to kill people he has a connection with. Considering Angel's done much crazier things, and embarked on what could be suicide missions, I'd argue that it wasn't fear that kept him from trying to dust Dru.


* Over in BtVS, he tries to plead with Dru to have her and Spike leave town before things get messy and she simply ignores him.

Again, we don't know if this is because he's intimidated by Dru. I mean before 1997, what had Dru done that was so scary?


* Meanwhile when she considers Angel enough of a nuisance for her, she has no problem with the idea of killing him (“Surprise” (2.13)).

Your point is? How has that contradicted anything I've said? It seems that Dru is more willing to kill Angel than the other way round. In the fight in Reunion, we see her trying to stake Angel several times, but we never see Angel even attempt to do the same, he mostly just gets her out the way so he can try and dust Darla.


he doesn’t even want to pursue her even though she tried to Lorophage Faith and him (which he considered bad) and then left them to that ‘mob’ that was trying to kill them.

It seems that's more to do with his familial feelings for her more than anything else, not really a sign of power per se.

Lostsoul666
13-09-13, 12:57 AM
Strength means nothing in the Buffyverse. Plot matters more. If the plot requires a character to be strong then they'll be strong. If they need to be weak they'll be weak.

Take Angel as an example. On Buffy he had the same strength as a common vampire until he turned into Angelus halfway through season 2. And in Season 3 he was back to the power level of a common vampire.
The writers didn't want him to be stronger then Buffy.

Yet on Angel he was clearly more powerful then the average vampire.

CajunKhan
30-09-13, 01:36 AM
Dru is a fairly powerful psionic, with visions of the future and hypnotic abilities that buffyverse vamps apparently don't normally develop before they are ancient. She's also nutty as a fruitcake and clearly not leading anything. Hell, Darla treated her as a child once she resired her.

MikeB
08-10-13, 05:22 AM
All caught up




KingofCretins


Honestly, use of mind control/hypnosis isn't really "winning" a fight, it's avoiding a fight. Drusilla had already won. She had Kendra immobilized. Again, she likely could have simply squeezed until Kendra’s neck snapped and/or she died from lack of oxygen. Or Dru could have put her fingers in Kendra and killed her as if using a knife.

Anyway, the Master, Drusilla, and Dracula using their hypno-beams are they being able to fight without needing to risk harm to themselves in the process.


if when their respective versions of the Great Roofie Spirit possessed Xander or later RJ, and they had simply seduced a Drusilla into a vulnerable position and staked her... Completely off-topic, but:

There’s zero indication Drusilla would be vulnerable to Xander. And there’s zero indication that Buffy was vulnerable to RJ. If anything, those under the spell were more dangerous to Xander than they had been before the spell.


* Drusilla’s prescient and she’s intelligent. She killed Kendra in a way in which Buffy would be blamed for her death.


And sort of to that point, Drusilla went ahead and hypnotized Kendra for only one of two reasons -- a) she didn't think she could defeat her without it, or b) she couldn't be arsed to, maybe because of their timetable. Again, she already defeated Kendra. And if anything, it took longer to kill her after using hypno-beams than it would had Dru simply snapped Kendra’s neck or put a hole through Kendra.



Vampire in Rug


you think that Spike was the winner when Angel and Spike fought in the episode In the Dark, I remember you saying Angel wasn’t afraid of werewolf Oz. Anyway, what I said is Angel got hurt during that fight and Spike wasn’t hurt. And that Spike was putting Angel into a false sense of security given it was always Spike’s plan to have that vampire torture Angel.


Getting distracted mid-battle is not an excuse, Spike defeated Drusilla. If Buffy was fighting and beating Spike and then sees or overhears Dawn or Willow is about to be killed, and after being distracted Spike beats Buffy, Spike would have beaten Buffy because she was distracted.

If Drusilla hadn’t gotten distracted, we don’t know who would have ultimately won that fight. But she was defeated because in her distraction Spike was somehow able to make her unconscious.


* I consider the flashbacks in “Fool For Love” (5.07) are showing what Spike is telling Buffy. We know for instance that Nikki did beg for her life, but this wasn’t shown. And Spike was simply telling Buffy that a Slayer needs a weapon in order to kill a vampire and a vampire always has his or her fangs. And that it’s better to have a weapon. Remember that Spike beat Buffy in “School Hard” (2.03) largely because he had that two-by-four and Buffy didn’t have anything to kill him with.


it's ridiculous that you'd give the win to Drusilla when she fought Spike. I didn’t say she beat Spike. I said something like she was beating Spike.


A struggling Slayer won't stay immobilized for long, Zero proof of this. Drusilla had Kendra immobilized.


Snapping somebody's neck would likely require one to use both hands, You don’t remember the scene. Drusilla had her immobilized with one hand.


* We don’t know how Spike got Drusilla to be unconscious.


* Well, in the possibly canonical comics, Spike also could use his nails as ‘knives’. But in the certain canon, Drusilla’s the only vampire I remember that uses her nails as deadly weapons. Darla cuts her skin so that Angel can drink her blood, but I don’t remember seeing Darla ever using her nails as deadly weapons.



kana


One of the issues I have with this is that we are not dealing with a martial arts tournament. There are no rules, therefore we cannot take anything for granted. No one is discussing this as if it were a martial arts tournament.


As for the 'look at the list of opponents I've defeated' argument? I loathe it. Simply because it ignores circumstance. By the same logic Riley Finn could take Buffy in a fight if he wanted to, seen as he easily killed a vampire who almost killed Buffy. Buffy lost to that vampire because she had gotten overconfident and therefore careless in fights. That Riley argument is irrelevant to this thread.


So say for example Spike was able to beat Buffy and Buffy was able to beat Faith, it doesn't mean that Spike would automatically win against Faith. This argument is irrelevant to this thread. Kendra relatively easily whupped Angel, she got into a standstill with Buffy (albeit Buffy had an injured leg), didn’t get a single hit on Spike, and only got a single hit on Drusilla. The Buffy-Spike and Buffy-Faith’s fights are more evenly matched.


* Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, informed Angel of this desire, and Angel worked with her to open Acathla. That’s what happened.

It is baseless speculation that Angel would have used the Judge even if Spike and Drusilla had not already expressed that they were using the Judge. It is baseless speculation that Angel would have used Acathla even if Drusilla had not already expressed her desire to open Acathla.

Spike got the Judge together as a birthday – assuming – present for Drusilla. Acathla was opened because Drusilla wanted it opened and was able to get the necessary information out of Giles.


My quote: “There’s nothing before or after “Becoming” (2.21-2) which suggests Angelus would be interested in doing something like Acathla.”

This is starting to grate, Facts inconvenient to your arguments are grating to you?


Not entirely sure, but I certainly think she was a 'Daddy's Girl' back in the day. In the ‘verse, she seems to care more about her mother. For Darla, it regards her relationship with Angel. Darla was the ‘wife’ and Drusilla was the ‘mistress’ and/or ‘paramour’.


“I've already addressed this argument.” “Again, I've addressed this as well.” It’s hypocritical to complain about my repeating myself and then give such statements.


I find it interesting that you seem to think that it's significant that Angelus never addressed Dru not taking better care of him, but not that Angel literally set fire to Dru and wasn't bothered at all about the reprisal? I have addressed Angel setting Drusilla afire.

Drusilla wasn’t in danger of actually dying. There was an axe on the path to a very nearby fire hydrant. Angel would have been dusted by Buffy had not he distracted her with the knowledge that Giles was about to be burned up.

What “Passion” (2.17) further proved is that Angel wasn’t the boss of either Spike or Drusilla and that Drusilla prioritized Spike above Angel.


My quote: “And, again, in “Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered” (2.16), Angel is clearly intimidated by Dru. She tosses him into a tree, threatens him if he dares to touch Xander again, and then ignores him and is about to sire Xander mere feet from where Angel is.”

This makes little sense to me. Why would Angel be intimidated? For the obvious reason that he knows Drusilla can dust him. And its canon he was at least intimidated. What is arguable is whether he was deathly afraid, etc.


He's openly stated how dangerous Spike is, yet has never been intimidated by him. Angel’s ego rarely allowed him to acknowledge that Spike is the superior fighter and the superior vampire.


he doesn't run away. She already ignored him. It’s not as if she was still intent on dusting him. She merely wanted him not to try to harm Xander.


He's watching the whole thing, probably seeing if he can make sense of what was going on. At the time Drusilla threatens him, he didn’t seem to consider that she could be under a spell.


In any respect, he still arrogantly mocks Dru when she can't get into the house so it's not as if he's scared of her. I don’t know whether he was being arrogant. It’s not as if he thinks she’ll try to dust him if he merely points out a fact.


* For the thread topic, Drusilla in AtS s2 wasn’t trying to kill Angel. I consider Angel in that greenhouse was trying to kill Drusilla because he desperately wanted to kill Darla. Later on, I consider Angel wasn’t going to try to actually kill Dru (because he doesn’t want to kill Dru because he still has feelings for Dru, and he didn’t want to suffer whatever consequences Spike would put on him).


* For “Lie to Me” (2.07), the nice ambiguity is whether Angel knows Drusilla is ill and what exactly Dru means by, “Or you’ll hurt me? No, no you can’t. Not anymore.”


I mean before 1997, what had Dru done that was so scary? Perhaps a more relevant question regarding Angel.



Lostsoul666


Strength means nothing in the Buffyverse. Plot matters more. If the plot requires a character to be strong then they'll be strong. If they need to be weak they'll be weak.

Take Angel as an example. On Buffy he had the same strength as a common vampire until he turned into Angelus halfway through season 2. And in Season 3 he was back to the power level of a common vampire.
The writers didn't want him to be stronger then Buffy.

Yet on Angel he was clearly more powerful then the average vampire. None of this is based on actual canon.

Strength means about everything in the Buffyverse. Angel is always depicted as stronger and more powerful than the average vampire. As Angelus, his advantage was simply Buffy’s hesitancy to dust him. With AtS, that happened after he drank a bunch of Buffy’s blood and after the PTB decided to make him their champion for Los Angeles.

KingofCretins
08-10-13, 05:42 AM
You missed my point entirely -- I asked if whether or not Xander (in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" and benefiting from the love spell) or RJ (wearing his jacket from "Him") were to have put the James Bond moves on Drusilla and staked her by surprise... would they have "beaten her in a fight"? Because that's all Dru is doing when she hypnotizes someone in the middle of combat to become completely docile.

kana
10-10-13, 02:46 PM
All caught up





kana

No one is discussing this as if it were a martial arts tournament.

It was more of general comment about 'rules' people place on the fights.


Buffy lost to that vampire because she had gotten overconfident and therefore careless in fights. That Riley argument is irrelevant to this thread.

Yes, therefore circumstances matter, which is why I take very little for granted.


This argument is irrelevant to this thread. Kendra relatively easily whupped Angel,

Number 1) We don't know if Angel was looking to hurt Kendra or not, Number 2) Angel didn't seem that badly hurt after the fight and we've seen Angel win fights whereby he's taken a much worse beating. I'm not trying to make excuses for Angel, I'm just saying we shouldn't take too much for granted.


she got into a standstill with Buffy (albeit Buffy had an injured leg), didn’t get a single hit on Spike, and only got a single hit on Drusilla. The Buffy-Spike and Buffy-Faith’s fights are more evenly matched.

And Buffy's fight with Angelus was relatively even matched in Becoming Part 2. I know there is always going to be the debate about Buffy's state of mind in that fight, but that's still assumption. We actually don't know that Buffy wasn't giving that particular fight her all, when she thought she was never going to get Angel back. To be honest I don't see the point in discussing that any further seen as people are always going to believe what they want to believe.


* Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, informed Angel of this desire, and Angel worked with her to open Acathla. That’s what happened.

I fear that we're going to go around in circles again. I understand that Dru was the one who found out about Acathla, but my point of contention is how you make it sound like she enlisted Angelus to help her when that's clearly not what happened. Dru never expressed words of desire. She never tells Angelus what to do. The only thing that happened in that scene (which I've watched many times) is Angelus asking Dru for information and she gave him that information. Factually that is what happened. I remember repeatedly talking about how Angelus was interested in the information and there wasn't any proof that he cared about Dru's wishes in the matter. It's all there in the dialogue.



It is baseless speculation that Angel would have used the Judge even if Spike and Drusilla had not already expressed that they were using the Judge. It is baseless speculation that Angel would have used Acathla even if Drusilla had not already expressed her desire to open Acathla.

How am I speculating? I'm not talking about what would happen, I'm talking about what did happen. From my point of view I'm not trying to argue that Angelus definitely would have done those things without Dru, I'm arguing that we don't know that he did those things because Dru wanted him to. Therefore, you're the one speculating and not me. I'm saying in terms of Acathla in particular, all we know is that Angelus decided to open Acathla. I don't know why, but I'm not making assumptions nor am I speculating what would happen had he not overheard Dru's conversation.


Spike got the Judge together as a birthday – assuming – present for Drusilla. Acathla was opened because Drusilla wanted it opened and was able to get the necessary information out of Giles.

I'm not arguing against that.



Facts inconvenient to your arguments are grating to you?

No, what's grating is you missing out parts of posts and only replying to the ones which are convenient to your arguments. If you actually quoted the rest of that part of the post you would see:

because I've already addressed this.

Seriously Mike, are you doing this on purpose to get out of replying to parts of my post? So far you have yet to address my counter argument!


There's no proof he wouldn't have. You also can't use the argument that he's never done anything like that prior to that or subsequently to that, because neither has Dru before 1998!!!!! And several years later Dru was still soulless and Angel was busy seeking redemption etc.

You've probably ignored this about three times now and it's irratating because it's actually the counter argument to the argument you keep repeating!



In the ‘verse, she seems to care more about her mother.

Not sure on that one. How is it indicated that she cares more about Darla? Is it because she's tried to kill or been Ok with Angel being killed? Fair comment I guess.


For Darla, it regards her relationship with Angel. Darla was the ‘wife’ and Drusilla was the ‘mistress’ and/or ‘paramour’.

I've often seen that way too.


It’s hypocritical to complain about my repeating myself and then give such statements.

No it's not, because I try to address all the points in your posts and you literally ignore sometimes massive parts of my post and then repeat the original point that made a counter argument against.


I have addressed Angel setting Drusilla afire.

Drusilla wasn’t in danger of actually dying. There was an axe on the path to a very nearby fire hydrant. Angel would have been dusted by Buffy had not he distracted her with the knowledge that Giles was about to be burned up.

That's not my point. I'm talking about how Angelus and Dru felt about what happened to them. There is no evidence that Angelus cared. We know that Dru wasn't happy about Angel setting her on fire, yet she didn't do anything. Yes she survived but she clearly was in pain and didn't like being on fire. Angelus simply left his situation with a smile on his face.


What “Passion” (2.17) further proved is that Angel wasn’t the boss of either Spike or Drusilla and that Drusilla prioritized Spike above Angel.

So? I never argued against that did I?


For the obvious reason that he knows Drusilla can dust him.

My point is, what did Dru do that would make Angel(us) think she was so deadly before 1998?


And its canon he was at least intimidated. What is arguable is whether he was deathly afraid, etc.


Hmm, not sure on that. Agree to disagree?


She already ignored him. It’s not as if she was still intent on dusting him. She merely wanted him not to try to harm Xander. Angel’s ego rarely allowed him to acknowledge that Spike is the superior fighter and the superior vampire.

Why wouldn't that extend to Dru?


She already ignored him. It’s not as if she was still intent on dusting him. She merely wanted him not to try to harm Xander.



At the time Drusilla threatens him, he didn’t seem to consider that she could be under a spell.

I didn't say he worked it out, he seemed to dismiss Dru as being crazy.


I don’t know whether he was being arrogant. It’s not as if he thinks she’ll try to dust him if he merely points out a fact.

Either way, his tone is not fearful.


* For the thread topic, Drusilla in AtS s2 wasn’t trying to kill Angel.

Yes she was, she was clearly trying to stake him.


I consider Angel in that greenhouse was trying to kill Drusilla because he desperately wanted to kill Darla.

He never attempts to kill Dru in the greenhouse.


Later on, I consider Angel wasn’t going to try to actually kill Dru (because he doesn’t want to kill Dru because he still has feelings for Dru, and he didn’t want to suffer whatever consequences Spike would put on him).

Familial feelings, yes, I agree. As for what Spike would do to him? I've address this. It's pure speculation that Angel is afraid of Spike at all!!

* For “Lie to Me” (2.07), the nice ambiguity is whether Angel knows Drusilla is ill and what exactly Dru means by, “Or you’ll hurt me? No, no you can’t. Not anymore.”


Perhaps a more relevant question regarding Angel.

I never said that Dru was a afraid of Angel(us).

MikeB
17-11-13, 12:57 PM
KingofCretins

* Your ‘point’ seems to be something like if Drusilla had such powers that she could teleport Kendra into the sun and did so that somehow Dru couldn’t be said to have beaten Kendra in a fight.


* Dru had Kendra immobilized before she uses the hyno-beams on her. Dru had already won.




kana

I’m again going to edit myself and limit this to being directly about “Drusilla's strength, power, and fighting ability” This isn’t about whether Buffy or Angel is the better fighter: clearly Buffy is.


* Angel – like Buffy – assumed Kendra was one of the assassins sent to kill Buffy. Kendra had already easily whupped Angel before he laughably tried to threaten her. Angel was locked in a cage and would have been dusted had Spike not needed him. Again, Buffy – albeit her leg is still sore/hurt – got into a standstill with Dru. Dru easily killed Kendra and Kendra only got a single blow in.


* Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, Angel knows she wants to open Acathla, and Angel worked with her to open Acathla.

I never said Drusilla “enlisted” Angel’s help to open Acathla. I said that wasn’t even necessary. Angel just did what she wanted.

It still seems you completely miss the obviousness in Dru’s voice, facial expressions, manner, nonverbal cues, etc. that all indicate she wants to open Acathla. And that Angel would clearly recognize her desire.


* It seems you’re forgetting that uncursed Angel’s goal in BtVS S2 – at least before he decided to focus his torment on Spike – was to emotionally hurt Buffy. It’s not even certain he actually wanted to kill her. Drusilla in BtVS S2 delighted in the idea of destroying the world; Angel was more interested in Buffy.


* We’ve seen plenty of flashbacks of uncursed Angel. He’s always focused on hurting individual people. Cursed Angel even says such in “Damage” (A 5.11).

Plus, something else you seem to forget is that Angel likes luxury and liked the world. And he didn’t like chaos.

Again, there’s no proof uncursed Angel would have used Acathla or even wanted to open Acathla were not for Dru wanting to do these things.


* I was referring to Drusilla seems to care more about her former human mother than she does about Angel. Dru refers to Darla as grandmother and then grandmother/daughter.


We know that Dru wasn't happy about Angel setting her on fire, yet she didn't do anything. I don’t know what you’re trying to get at. Are you saying Dru was now afraid of Angel?


* It seems you missed the point. Dru wasn’t in actual danger of dying in “Redefinition” (A 2.11). Yes, her feelings were hurt that Angel decided to set her afire instead of rejoin ‘the family’ and play and have fun with Darla and her (and Spike). But she wouldn’t think Angel actually tried to kill her or that she was in actual danger of being killed.

In “Passion” (2.17), Spike and Dru were away from the fight and away from the focus. Spike would have continued to wheel himself away from Buffy. If Giles hadn’t been in immediate danger of dying and if Angel hadn’t noticed that, Angel would be dust.


My point is, what did Dru do that would make Angel(us) think she was so deadly before 1998? Snarky answer: she’s a vampire who kills people.

Answer: Let’s not forget how much of a wussy and scaredy-cat Angel was prior to BtVS S3 (yes, uncursed Angel only went against Buffy because he knew he could play her emotions for him against her).

By the way, there isn’t a flashback that shows either Darla or Angel being a superior fighter or more powerful than Dru.


* We actually saw Dru ‘winning’ the fight against Spike until she got distracted by Angel’s pulling the sword out.

I don’t recall an instance of Dru overestimating someone’s abilities or underestimating someone’s abilties.


* For “Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered” (2.16): its canon Angel was at least intimidated by Dru. What is arguable is whether he was deathly afraid, etc.

To “disagree” is to have your arguments not be based on canon.

Dru warned him not to way a finger on Xander. She didn’t say something such as “Don’t you dare mock me.”


* Dru in AtS s2 didn’t want to kill Angel. She wasn’t clearly trying to stake him, she was holding him off until Darla could escape.

You’re right; Angel didn’t actually want to kill Dru either.


* By the way, if you don’t think Spike was a factor in why Angel didn’t kill Dru it stands to reason you should consider either Angel didn’t want to kill Dru and/or he knew he couldn’t likely beat her in a ‘fair fight’.


* In “Crush” (5.14), Buffy assumes a bunch of vampires killed those people on that train. And unless Dru moved the bodies, that’s not only the fastest we’ve seen a vampire be able to kill.

kana
19-11-13, 09:27 PM
I suppose we may be talking in cross purposes as I was never particularly interested in the details of the who is the best fighter, a) because I don't really care, b) I think plot can be driver within reason and c) from a Watsonian perspective, a lot people make assumptions about the 'rules' fight and motivations etc.

I've always maintained that Drusilla is powerful and formidable. It's not important to place her in some sort of ranking as if it were a tournament of some sort. With this in mind I'm going to refrain from addressing arguments about the fights directly.



kana


* Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, Angel knows she wants to open Acathla, and Angel worked with her to open Acathla.




I never said Drusilla “enlisted” Angel’s help to open Acathla. I said that wasn’t even necessary. Angel just did what she wanted.

Which, as I said, is only significant if he was doing it to please Dru.


It still seems you completely miss the obviousness in Dru’s voice, facial expressions, manner, nonverbal cues, etc. that all indicate she wants to open Acathla.

No, because I fully acknowledged that Dru had a desire to open Acathla.


And that Angel would clearly recognize her desire.

I'm tired of repeating myself. That is only relevant if he cared about that desire and no, his opening Acathla is not proof of that.



* It seems you’re forgetting that uncursed Angel’s goal in BtVS S2 – at least before he decided to focus his torment on Spike – was to emotionally hurt Buffy. It’s not even certain he actually wanted to kill her. Drusilla in BtVS S2 delighted in the idea of destroying the world; Angel was more interested in Buffy.

If you look at the thread about Acathla, you'll see I factored that into some possible theories.



* We’ve seen plenty of flashbacks of uncursed Angel. He’s always focused on hurting individual people. Cursed Angel even says such in “Damage” (A 5.11).

I've already addressed this...

I actually can't be bothered, because pretty much most of you said, I have addressed already. We're just going round in circles.

KingofCretins
20-11-13, 12:43 AM
I still think you're missing the point, MikeB -- if you hypnotize someone or use a mystical aphrodisiac on them to take away the motive force by which they fight in the first place, that is a way to opt out of a fight. For laughs, do you think any MMA league would sanction mind control as a submission move? Or would it be a disqualification? Dru may have defeated Kendra or may not have, but if she could, she clearly couldn't be arsed to see it through, so she put a cheat code in her GameShark and skipped it.

MikeB
17-12-13, 10:01 AM
kana

* There is no indication that Angel would have wanted to open Acathla if Drusilla already hadn’t wanted to open Acathla and expressed that desire to Angel.

Is there more than a 0% chance that Angel would have wanted to open Acathla even if Drusilla wasn’t around? Yes.

Would Angel have tried to open Acathla if Drusilla expressed she didn’t want to open Acathla? Highly unlikely.



KingofCretins

* This is a thread about Drusilla’s strength, power, and fighting ability.

It seems you are trying to say that Dru’s using her hypno-beams on Kendra is a sign of Dru’s ‘weakness’ or ‘lack of fighting skill’.

Regarding this thread, if Dru could simply walk in the SHS library and kill Kendra by simply looking at her, all that’s relevant is that she has that ability and is therefore far more powerful than Kendra. Same with if Dru could simply kill Kendra by thinking, “Kill Kendra”.

* As for the fight itself, Kendra was already a goner. Dru could have simply dug her fingernails into Kendra’s neck. Dru could have swiftly stuck her fingers in Kendra’s eyes or heart. What Dru did is kill Kendra in a way in which Buffy could be reasonably blamed for it.

kana
23-12-13, 08:55 AM
kana

* There is no indication that Angel would have wanted to open Acathla if Drusilla already hadn’t wanted to open Acathla and expressed that desire to Angel.


This is the thing, you always speculate. We have no idea what would have happened had he found out about Acathla by himself. My argument is, there is no proof he was trying to please Dru and he clearly wanted to open Acathla. Unless you're saying Angelus didn't want to open Acathla, of which you literally have no proof, then I have nothing else to discuss with you on this topic. That he wanted to open Acathla is what we see on screen. Looking for the exact reason why will always end in speculation. So we may as well agree to disagree.




Would Angel have tried to open Acathla if Drusilla expressed she didn’t want to open Acathla? Highly unlikely.

Speculation as there is no proof that Angelus was trying to please Dru. He's never tried to do things to please her in the past, that we know of. The fact that in almost 10 years belonging to the forums that you're the only person I've come across who's said this is telling. You may say that doesn't make what you're saying wrong, but don't you think it's strange that you're one of the only people who 'see it'?

Regardless, if your argument was based on actual facts rather than a lot of speculation, I might take it seriously, but since it's not, I'm dismissing.

I consider this debate over.

MikeB
21-01-14, 02:40 AM
kana

My quote: “There is no indication that Angel would have wanted to open Acathla if Drusilla already hadn’t wanted to open Acathla and expressed that desire to Angel.”

This is fact. Yes, there is above a zero percent chance that Angel may have wanted to open Acathla if Drusilla hadn’t already expressed she wanted to open Acathla. However, it is a baseless assumption to say he would have.


[Angel’s] never tried to do things to please [Drusilla] in the past, that we know of. We know of “Innocence” (B 2.14).


The fact that in almost 10 years belonging to the forums that you're the only person I've come across who's said this is telling. You may say that doesn't make what you're saying wrong, but don't you think it's strange that you're one of the only people who 'see it'? This is meaningless. In-verse, the Scoobies consider that Angel’s responsible for the Acathla thing and Drusilla and Spike have no interest in dissuading them from that consideration. In-verse, the First Evil considers Drusilla the Big Bad of BtVS S2 and in-canon, Drusilla’s considered a far bigger danger than Angel and Spike.


Regardless, if your argument was based on actual facts rather than a lot of speculation, I might take it seriously, but since it's not, I'm dismissing. It took you many months to even acknowledge that Angel knew Drusilla wanted to open Acathla before he decided to help open Acathla.


I consider this debate over. Posters should say, “I agree to disagree.” What you did in this post is essentially say, “All your arguments aren’t based on facts, are only speculation, you’re wrong and I’m right, and I consider this debate over (because I’m right and you’re wrong.)”

The canon is Drusilla wanted the Judge to kill everyone with humanity and Angel went along. The canon is Drusilla wanted to use Acathla and Angel helped her in that task.

Vampire in Rug
02-04-14, 04:26 AM
Mike, the canon is that Drusilla gave Angel the idea of Acathla and from that point on it became Angel's pet project. Angel wasn't threatened or coerced into doing it by Drusilla.

Anyway, regarding your idea that Kendra beat Angel, Drusilla "beat" Kendra, therefore Dru>Kendra>Angel... It's already been pointed out several times why that's a faulty way "proving" the dynamics of a fight.

So I'm not gonna do that, instead I'm gonna rely on your own technique of blaming Jasmine for every bit of canon that you don't like. I'm gonna assert the idea that Kendra was destined to slay Angelus because according to you, Kendra is simply better than him. Angel was gonna lose his soul and Kendra was gonna kill him at some point. So Jasmine intervened because she couldn't allow Kendra to dust her future grandad. Drusilla never legitimately killed Kendra, it was only made possible through Jasmine's divine intervention. This is no more ridiculous than other stuff you've blamed Jasmine for.

MikeB
15-04-14, 05:01 AM
Vampire in Rug

* You’re not the arbiter of canon for the Buffyverse. I’ve already explained the Acathla thing and you said nothing different from what kana has already said.


* Drusilla was considered and regarded as far more dangerous than Angel. That’s the actual canon.

- Regarding “the dynamics of a fight”, I don’t remember many posters even knowing or acknowledging how Force works.

- The canon is that Drusilla easily killed Kendra and that Kendra relatively easily whupped Angel.


I'm gonna rely on your own technique of blaming Jasmine for every bit of canon that you don't like. That’s simply fallacious and I don’t respond to straw man arguments.

MikeB
13-07-17, 12:53 AM
Drusilla is not even listed on this list: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer .

Much of Drusilla's power is because of her ability to get powerful beings to do thing for her.

I guess it's a little difficult to nail down an exact tier for Drusilla because it'd probably depend upon what is considered canon. Only the comics show her kicking and otherwise using her legs in fights. The comics show her adeptness with weapons. Her magic abilities are more shown in the comics.

Anyway, I'd probably list her Tier as 8-B including everything that is probably canon: Ring of Fire , Spike and Dru: Paint the Town Red , A&F S9, etc.