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Golden Boy
02-02-12, 10:44 AM
Okay everyone.

Honest answers please.

Would Buffy have been an even better show with Harmony playing the role of Buffy?

I honestly don't know. Its such a tough question. Yes, Harmony is hotter, but that in a way that is the whole problem. Buffy shouldn't be too hot as it would diminish the serious sombre nature of her charactor.

But at the same time, Harmony is hot - and there is something about a hot Slayer that appeals to us males (the majority audience for Buffy).

I think Mercedes does her role so well, that people might automatically so no - this would be no good having a ditzy blonde for Buffy. So you need to ignore what you know about Harmony to answer the question honestly.

vampmogs
02-02-12, 10:52 AM
Hm, where to begin...

a) I find SMG to be extremely attractive and disagree that she isn't a 'hot Slayer'

b) With all due respect to Mercedes, I find Sarah to be by far the more superior actress and believe the show was much better off with her in the lead role

c) The 'majority audience' was actually not male. I absolutely think that BtVS caters to both sexes but the majority of the audience was actually female and the WB advertised the show for the female market.

d) The show is written by a feminist and was meant to represent feminist ideas. So basing who should play the part of Buffy on how "hot" the actress is, is extremely misogynistic and demeaning.

So in other words -- No.

Golden Boy
02-02-12, 10:59 AM
I think the truth is that it was actually the actress who played Cordelia who was SMG's main competition for the lead role, but I could be wrong on that.

vampmogs
02-02-12, 11:06 AM
A lot of the actresses auditioned for the role of Buffy. Julie Benz (Darla), Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia), Mercedes Mcnab (Harmony), Julia Lee (Chanterelle/Anne) and Elizabeth Anne Allen (Amy) all auditioned for the part. Sarah Michelle Gellar actually originally auditioned for the role of Cordelia (as did Bianca Lawson who played Kendra) but they felt she was better suited for Buffy.

Quite a few famous actresses also went for the part. Kirstin Dunst, Selmar Blair and Katie Holmes auditioned for Buffy and Ryan Reynolds auditioned for Xander. In fact, he was actually offered the role but for some reason had to turn it down.

Sosa lola
02-02-12, 11:35 AM
I've always thought that BtVS was more popular among women, but when I think about the fans I know online I think that the number of male and female fans is equal.

From a very shallow POV, I think SMG is more attractive. S2 Buffy is so beautiful. :redshy:

On acting, I haven't watched Mercedes McNab in a serious role, so I can't really judge, but SMG did a fantastic job with Buffy and I'd never wish any actress in that role but her.


and Ryan Reynolds auditioned for Xander. In fact, he was actually offered the role but for some reason had to turn it down.

I heard about him auditioning but I didn't know he got the role. That's interesting. *tries to picture Xander played by Ryan* I'm thankful Nicholas Brendon got it, I'm satisfied with the way he played Xander. And he pulls out the Jerk Xander scenes flawlessly.

vampmogs
02-02-12, 11:49 AM
I think Nicholas Brendon did a fantastic job and I am very satisfied that he ended up with the part, but I must admit, I could see Ryan Reynolds in the role quite easily. Usually I have a really difficult time imagining other actors in roles but I can easily picture how Reynolds would deliver most of Xander’s lines. I can also imagine him playing Xander’s jealousy in the earlier years and the goofball comedy in S4. The only thing I’m less certain of is how he would approach the really dramatic scenes (or “jerk scenes” as you describe them :lol:) because I haven’t really watched Reynolds in any moments when he's just plain angry.

Out of all the other actresses who auditioned for Buffy (at least the ones who went on to have other parts) I'm thankful that Sarah was given the role. They all do a good job in the roles they were given but with all due respect, I really couldn't see Elizabeth Anne Allen, Julia Lee or Mercedes Mcnab carrying their own show. And whilst I think Charisma is fantastic as Cordy I think she has real difficulty with most of her dramatic scenes in the later seasons of AtS so I just don't think she could tackle most of Buffy’s storylines. Julie Benz definitely has the acting chops but she seems far too old for the part.

The other choices are interesting. Sometimes I find that Kirstin Dunst's voice really grates so I don't know if I would find Buffy too annoying, but in other films she's magnificent. I never watched Dawson’s Creek so I’m actually not all that familiar with Katie Holmes’s skill and I just couldn’t ever see Selma Blair in the role.

Sosa lola
02-02-12, 12:54 PM
I could see Ryan Reynolds in the role quite easily. Usually I have a really difficult time imagining other actors in roles but I can easily picture how Reynolds would deliver most of Xander’s lines. I can also imagine him playing Xander’s jealousy in the earlier years and the goofball comedy in S4.

Oh, I can see him do the comedy and I feel he'd probably come out more sympathetic in the jealousy roles than NB did. What I was thinking about were the jerk moments, because - this may come out as a surprise because it's kinda the core of Xander's character - I'm not really interested in the jokes-funny parts of Xander. I love the serious part of Xander's character far, far, far more and wish we could have seen more of his ugly side. That's what attracts me to his character. As well as the heroic traits like his loyalty and courage.

Nicholas Brendon was a huge part of what pulled me to BtVS. I was never into vampire shows, but his looks and acting made me sit and watch. If Xander was played by someone else, I might not have been here. Which scares me. :lol: Because part of the reason I'm the person I am today was because of BtVS: improving my English, improving my writing skills, exercising my love for creating stories, making me a popular teacher :D , made me learn more about feminism and giving me role models in Buffy and Xander and other characters.

So, I'm very thankful they chose Nicholas Brendon for the role. :heart:



It's kinda strange, but when I first saw SMG it was in that scene, "I'm 16 I don't wanna die." I had actually scoffed, and thought, "You're not 16." Which when you think about it is so weird because she was the youngest actress among them all. I'm amazed by it now. Because SMG looked so young in S1. It's so weird.

Stoney
02-02-12, 01:16 PM
I find Harmony so annoying that I can't imagine it but, no, I think SMG is the better actress.

As an aside, I can't see Harm as attractive, I know she is supposed to be but she just looks like a swollen blowup doll to me, tacky and full of nothing. SMG isn't 'pretty' but is interestingly attractive in a way that suits the nature of the character.

KingofCretins
02-02-12, 02:59 PM
I don't know of Mercedes McNab ever being in high contention for that part. My understanding was that #2 was Julie Benz and #3 was Charisma. Julie Benz as Buffy is something I've tried to ponder, and I could totally have seen the show still hitting with her in the lead.

I don't know about Ryan Reynolds ever having been offered the Xander role, just that he auditioned. Oh what a different Buffyverse it would be if he had been Xander. I'm trying to imagine the "we need Xander to be less buff" thing having a conversation with Hannibal King's abs.

TimeTravellingBunny
02-02-12, 04:31 PM
Count me in as one of those that think SMG is far more attractive than Mercedes McNab. More importantly, as far as acting talent and presence go, Julie Benz is the only one out of the actresses that auditioned that can give SMG a run for her money, but I'm not sure if I could buy her as 16-year old Buffy.

As for the others, Kirsten Dunst is a good actress, but Katie Holmes isn't. I haven't seen enough of Selma Blair to judge if she is able to play a tough, smart, wisecracking heroine, since the roles I've seen her in were very different.

I think SMG was perfect for the role and the presence and charisma and I seeing Buffy's depiction in the comics by various artists, it makes me realize how much I miss the personal strength, intelligence, maturity and emotion that she brought to the character. I never, never doubted for a moment on the show that this tiny girl would be the leader and the hero that others would follow and look up to.

Sosa: If anything, I'd have problems buying Charisma and Nick as teenagers, they definitely looked like 20-somethings. Alyson I could, even though she's not much younger than them. During "Teacher's Pet" I was thinking "You look way too old to be acting like a 16-year old idiot boy".


I don't know of Mercedes McNab ever being in high contention for that part. My understanding was that #2 was Julie Benz and #3 was Charisma. Julie Benz as Buffy is something I've tried to ponder, and I could totally have seen the show still hitting with her in the lead.

I don't know about Ryan Reynolds ever having been offered the Xander role, just that he auditioned. Oh what a different Buffyverse it would be if he had been Xander. I'm trying to imagine the "we need Xander to be less buff" thing having a conversation with Hannibal King's abs.
On the other hand, they sure wouldn't be having those problems if Danny Strong had gotten the role!

I'm really unfamiliar with Ryan Reynolds. A couple of other interesting facts - Nathan Fillion auditioned for Angel (is that how Joss first met him? I wonder if he would've been Joss' first choice, since we know David wouldn't have been if it hadn't been for the women on the staff) and the Christian Kane auditioned for Riley. The last fact is perhaps the most interesting to me, since it makes me wonder how much the character of Riley and his storylines might have been different. He might not have ended being such a Captain Cardboard, for starters, and while it's hard to guess what kind of chemistry he would or wouldn't have had with SMG (but I doubt it could have been weaker than Blucas'), it would've certainly been a very different visual, height-difference-wise. No tiny badass Buffy paired up with Enormous Hall Monitor. :D

KingofCretins
02-02-12, 04:55 PM
Count me in as one of those that think SMG is far more attractive than Mercedes McNab. More importantly, as far as acting talent and presence go, Julie Benz is the only one out of the actresses that auditioned that can give SMG a run for her money, but I'm not sure if I could buy her as 16-year old Buffy.

I agree except about Julia Lee -- I think what Joss saw in her that him keep bringing her back is a very vital and real thing and that she actually could have done something very memorable with that part. Just a hunch.


On the other hand, they sure wouldn't be having those problems if Danny Strong had gotten the role!

I think it would have been a much different romantic landscape in the very least if the loyal best friend guy was played by a semi-permanent fixture in People's 50 Most Beautiful, if nothing else.


I'm really unfamiliar with Ryan Reynolds.

I have a mancrush on him, even if they did put him in the worst Green Lantern costume possible (haven't even seen it). He is riveting in just about every movie, and he can do intense or comedic like flipping a switch (I'm looking forward to seeing him play against Denzel in Safe House). If nothing else, I'm sure there is some Hannibal King/Buffy fic out there.


A couple of other interesting facts - Nathan Fillion auditioned for Angel (is that how Joss first met him? I wonder if he would've been Joss' first choice, since we know David wouldn't have been if it hadn't been for the women on the staff) and the Christian Kane auditioned for Riley. The last fact is perhaps the most interesting to me, since it makes me wonder how much the character of Riley and his storylines might have been different. He might not have ended being such a Captain Cardboard, for starters, and while it's hard to guess what kind of chemistry he would or wouldn't have had with SMG (but I doubt it could have been weaker than Blucas'), it would've certainly been a very different visual, height-difference-wise. No tiny badass Buffy paired up with Enormous Hall Monitor. :D

I still ponder what Nick Brendan might have done with Nathan's most famous role had it been offered to him as, apparently, was a real possibility at one point.

sueworld
02-02-12, 05:08 PM
I still ponder what Nick Brendan might have done with Nathan's most famous role had it been offered to him as, apparently, was a real possibility at one point.

But wasn't the only person touting that about was Nick himself? Dd Whedon ever say that?

KingofCretins
02-02-12, 05:40 PM
But wasn't the only person touting that about was Nick himself? Dd Whedon ever say that?

Any particular reason to imply (or more or less say outright) that Nick was lying about it? Some track record of public dishonesty and making crap up about his career working with Joss by which you question it?

Sosa lola
02-02-12, 05:40 PM
Sosa: If anything, I'd have problems buying Charisma and Nick as teenagers, they definitely looked like 20-somethings. Alyson I could, even though she's not much younger than them. During "Teacher's Pet" I was thinking "You look way too old to be acting like a 16-year old idiot boy".


I agree. I don't really remember my first thoughts of Alyson and Charisma. When I first saw Nicholas, it was the scene where he lied to Buffy - Becoming 2, and I was attracted to his looks and character at once. I don't think I thought about his age much since he didn't mention it in the scene.

Rewatching the show, I really wish Nick and Charisma were at least five years younger than they were. I think a lot of Xander and Cordelia's immaturity wouldn't have been as annoying had they been portrayed by younger actors. To Charisma's advantage, her character seemed to have aged ever since she moved from BtVS to AtS. Cordelia started acting more like a woman in her late twenties than an 18 / 19 year old girl. Poor Nick was stuck playing Xander exactly like his age, so it seemed less convincing watching a 30 year old man afraid of commitment and walking out on his bride. The reactions would have probably been more sympathetic if Xander looked like the 21 year old kid he was.

I'm really glad the characters look like their age in the comics. There was an outcry of rage over the way Chen had drawn Xander in #2, but the picture she'd used for Nick was taken when Nicholas Brendon was 27. Still older than Xander's real age in the comics, but looks more like Xander should look now than the 32 year old man of S7.

sueworld
02-02-12, 05:42 PM
Just that I find it odd that this rumor appears to have only come from one source. But then I always take what actors say with a pinch of salt myself.

Many like to 'embellish' a few things as they travel along their career path.

KingofCretins
02-02-12, 05:51 PM
Just that I find it odd that this rumor appears to have only come from one source. But then I always take what actors say with a pinch of salt myself.

Many like to 'embellish' a few things as they travel along their career path.

Yeah, I'm very sure that if James Marsters had offered the same independent story of him having been considered for Mal and we had no comment from Joss or Nathan or anyone else affirming or refuting it, your opening position would be that he was probably making it up.

buffyholic
02-02-12, 05:55 PM
Ryan as Xander? Now, that´s intriguing!

I´ve read that Joss decided to make BTVS because of Sarah. Because she is such a great actress that delivers.

I feel Sarah is really the perfect Buffy.

sueworld
02-02-12, 05:56 PM
Yeah, I'm very sure that if James Marsters had offered the same independent story of him having been considered for Mal and we had no comment from Joss or Nathan or anyone else affirming or refuting it, your opening position would be that he was probably making it up.

Err no. I know the wee one has often been guilty of 'embellishing' certain stories. :lol:

Thats what I mean by taking what actors say with a pinch of salt until your hear someone else back up what they've been saying. I mean It looks good to say you were a serious contender for a role even If you didn't get it. And I suppose unless Whedon steps forward and says otherwise who's going to know what the truth is.

TimeTravellingBunny
02-02-12, 10:22 PM
I find the idea of Nick being offered Mal extremely unlikely, since that would mean that Joss believed he was able to be a main cast member on two shows at once, including one where he's the lead. Have you ever heard of an actor being able to do that?

Since this is impossible (unless Joss seriously intended to kill off Xander before starting to work on Firefly), it's far more likely that Nick embellished the story. Maybe Joss made a casual comment that he could play that role or something like that, but I really don't see how this could have been seriously considered.

Lyri
02-02-12, 10:26 PM
I find the idea of Nick being offered Mal extremely unlikely, since that would mean that Joss believed he was able to be a main cast member on two shows at once, including one where he's the lead. Have you ever heard of an actor being able to do that?

Since this is impossible (unless Joss seriously intended to kill off Xander before starting to work on Firefly), it's far more likely that Nick embellished the story. Maybe Joss made a casual comment that he could play that role or something like that, but I really don't see how this could have been seriously considered.

Wasn't there something going around that Joss was going to kill Xander off in S7, but then he changed his mind for some reason?

I vaguely remember that, but I don't have a link. :/ Not that I think Nicky has the acting chops to play Mal.

Nor do I think Mercedes would be better in the role of Buffy than SMG, or think she's better looking than SMG. But then again, I just don't like Mercedes McNab, lol.

TimeTravellingBunny
02-02-12, 10:33 PM
Wasn't there something going around that Joss was going to kill Xander off in S7, but then he changed his mind for some reason?

I vaguely remember that, but I don't have a link. :/ Not that I think Nicky has the acting chops to play Mal.

I don't know if he really wanted to kill off Xander and when this would've happened (wouldn't it have been already too late since Firefly was already being filmed during early season 7?), but didn't Nick also say that he had a drinking problem during season 7 and could hardly remember his lines, which lead to his diminished role? That makes the story even less likely.

Lyri
02-02-12, 10:39 PM
I don't know if he really wanted to kill off Xander and when this would've happened (wouldn't it have been already too late since Firefly was already being filmed during early season 7?), but didn't Nick also say that he had a drinking problem during season 7 and could hardly remember his lines, which lead to his diminished role? That makes the story even less likely.

Hmm, you have a good point. Not that I think Nicky was lying, because obviously, if it's gotten online, then it'll have gotten back to Joss, and I can't imagine he would have been pleased if his actors were just spewing crap like this.

sueworld
02-02-12, 10:49 PM
Hmm, you have a good point. Not that I think Nicky was lying, because obviously, if it's gotten online, then it'll have gotten back to Joss, and I can't imagine he would have been pleased if his actors were just spewing crap like this.

Oh I think Whedon would be too much of a gentlemen to say anything about such things.

KingofCretins
02-02-12, 10:53 PM
Hmm, you have a good point. Not that I think Nicky was lying, because obviously, if it's gotten online, then it'll have gotten back to Joss, and I can't imagine he would have been pleased if his actors were just spewing crap like this.

One doesn't have to do with the other, is the thing, because we really don't have a full and charted timeline of how long "Firefly" was kicking around Joss' dome. It aired during Season 7, so obviously Nick's problems during Season 7 have no relevance to his suitability to be cast for and shoot a role before then. Realistically, all the preliminaries would have been during Season 6, maybe as early as late Season 5 -- right around the time, incidentally, that Joss infamously told the man he had no ideas left for Xander.

This isn't hard -- A) the logistics of him being considered for that role work in time. B) certainly nobody who easily could have, has contradicted him. C) there is absolutely no reason to assume he's lying without it being a direct insult to him. FFS it only came up as one of a SLEW of examples of places where one actor might have ended up playing another role, why this whole ordeal over treating it as a lie for no reason when it isn't even the topic?

EDIT: And, yeah, of course it's just that Nick's lying and Joss (as is, apparently, Tim Minear, Nathan, every other cast member and writer, etc) is too polite to embarrass him, I could have set my watch by that the second the first challenge to his story came up. I don't get what's with people, I really freakin' don't. The possibility that Joss may have talked to him about the role, though, that is the farthest out of plausibility.

sueworld
02-02-12, 11:02 PM
Well considering JM's been known to say stupid things about Whedon, (which I'm sure doesn't go down well with him when he got to hear about it,) and yet Whedons never once commented on that, so no, I think Nick saying this wouldn't draw any comment from him one way or another.

KingofCretins
02-02-12, 11:17 PM
Well considering JM's been known to say stupid things about Whedon, (which I'm sure doesn't go down well with him when he got to hear about it,) and yet Whedons never once commented on that, so no, I think Nick saying this wouldn't draw any comment from him one way or another.

Which still doesn't amount to a coherent reason to think that he's lying, of course. The only reason for that is personal preference to think that he is, there's no actual facts to discredit his account. It's a judgment on his character, basically.

sueworld
02-02-12, 11:20 PM
Well lets face It there's not facts to back It up either way is there as we only have Nicks word on it so far, and nobody elses.

dina
02-02-12, 11:21 PM
Which still doesn't amount to a coherent reason to think that he's lying, of course. The only reason for that is personal preference to think that he is, there's no actual facts to discredit his account. It's a judgment on his character, basically.

The other day you were wondering that someone was quoting himself as a source and now just because Nick said something (and we don't know the circumstances under which that statement was made) you just believe him?

Sorry, but unless I get more proof about it I don't buy it.

KingofCretins
02-02-12, 11:38 PM
Well lets face It there's not facts to back It up either way is there as we only have Nicks word on it so far, and nobody elses.


The other day you were wondering that someone was quoting himself as a source and now just because Nick said something (and we don't know the circumstances under which that statement was made) you just believe him?

Sorry, but unless I get more proof about it I don't buy it.

This really, really shouldn't require explanation. A declarative statement (i.e. Joss talked to me about this role) is an assertion of fact. How much credence you give that fact, whether it's correct or not, valid or not, is up to you. If you think it's a false statement of fact, though, and you have no other fact that you can turn to as a reason why that is, you're basically saying "I reject that assertion of fact because I think the person asserting it is dishonest".

I bring that up, sue, because, Nick saying so is a fact that supports its veracity -- "his good word" if you will. Since I have absolutely no weird or inexplicable reason to think the guy is lying, and have no other basis on which to think he's wrong or being misleading, I believe him.

And Dina... wow. Okay. Here's the difference. Drlloyd asserted as fact (I'll paraphrase) "here's how Tara was supposed to come back". That, again, see above, is an assertion of fact. I asked if there were other facts that could support his assertion, and the response was to link other instances of him asserting it himself.

In comparison, that would be asking "okay Nick, can you give any other facts that support the claim that Joss considered you for Mal?" and for Nick to go "oh, sure", and reach down and link to a video of him saying it, and then a transcript of him saying it.

For Nick Brendan's part, thankfully he was surrounded by civilized people who ostensibly just don't assume he's a liar -- probably for no other reason than some whack hostility they have for the character he played -- and he wasn't asked to "prove it".

sueworld
02-02-12, 11:46 PM
Still I have to say that nobody else seems to have ever backed up this comment from Nick and so I don't think It's unreasonable to wonder how much credence to give it, for as I said many actors come up with all sorts of stories that don't necessarily end up being true.

It's the nature of the business I'm afraid.

KingofCretins
03-02-12, 12:01 AM
Still I have to say that nobody else seems to have ever backed up this comment from Nick and so I don't think It's unreasonable to wonder how much credence to give it, for as I said many actors come up with all sorts of stories that don't necessarily end up being true.

It's the nature of the business I'm afraid.

Well, to take a page out of your book, maybe they were all too polite to realize people would think he was lying for absolutely no rational reason whatsoever Maybe if Joss or Tim Minear or anyone else that might have been privy to such a discussion knew that there would be people waiting in the weeds to call Nick Brendan a liar when he brought it up, they might have gone out of their way to authenticate it for him. Or, put another, maybe they just expected better.

sueworld
03-02-12, 12:08 AM
Look, actors tell tall tales all the time. You might not want to hear that, but It's often the case.

Of course Whedon might have really said this to him at some point, but as I said nobody will ever know the truth one way or another.

KingofCretins
03-02-12, 12:18 AM
Look, actors tell tall tales all the time. You might not want to hear that, but It's often the case.

Of course Whedon might have really said this to him at some point, but as I said nobody will ever know the truth one way or another.

Oh, well when you put it that way... there's still not any actual reason to think this is an example.

What the eff ever, done with it. Granted, this wasn't ever a candidate for Best Thread of All Time, but it still got completely derailed because you couldn't let Nick's mention of himself being up for "Firefly" pass as one of several casting near-misses without basically calling him a liar, and for no reason other than that you wanted to, not because you had any facts. Complete waste of time.

sueworld
03-02-12, 12:20 AM
I didn't call him a liar, I just said we don't know one way or another.

KingofCretins
03-02-12, 12:22 AM
I didn't call him a liar, I just said we don't know one way or another.

That's a BS distinction and you know it -- you are the only person by whom the subject of his story being untrue even came into the discussion. "Oh, I didn't say he's lying, I just said that him saying so isn't enough to believe its true". Because that's what you say when you think someone is telling the truth.

sueworld
03-02-12, 12:25 AM
Others on here have passed similar comments, so I'm not the only one I'm afraid.

Also when you think about it imo it doesn't really work. Joss pitched Firefly for the same season that he had Buffy Season Seven lined up for. Why would he make the role for Nick, knowing Nick would have a huge role in Buffy Season Seven? Doesn't really fit.

But hey, ho, there ya go. :)

Dinza
03-02-12, 12:50 AM
I can't really imagine anyone other than Sarah Michelle Gellar portrarying Buffy, not Mercedes, nor any of the other hopefuls (Katie Holmes, Anne Allen (Amy), or Julia Lee (Anne)). Actually I think if Buffy were to be played by anyone else, Charisma Carpenter would probably be my next choice if it were my way, the wit and style she portrayed as Cordelia could have easily fit Buffy since her comebacks and remarks were on a similar edge as Cordelia's, oh and she's awesome :)

TimeTravellingBunny
03-02-12, 01:26 AM
I can't really imagine anyone other than Sarah Michelle Gellar portrarying Buffy, not Mercedes, nor any of the other hopefuls (Katie Holmes, Anne Allen (Amy), or Julia Lee (Anne)). Actually I think if Buffy were to be played by anyone else, Charisma Carpenter would probably be my next choice if it were my way, the wit and style she portrayed as Cordelia could have easily fit Buffy since her comebacks and remarks were on a similar edge as Cordelia's, oh and she's awesome :)
Charisma doesn't have the acting chops to play the drama like SMG does. She's good at snark and comedy but her big dramatic and emotional moments often fall flat.

vampmogs
03-02-12, 04:19 AM
They don't just fall flat, at times I think they're downright terrible. Her delivery of "I'm in love! With Angel!" and "he has to know how I feel" are some of the worst pieces of acting in the whole Buffyverse. I also cringe whenever I see the end of Reunion and she says "Can't you see where this is taking you?"

It's odd. In BtVS S3 she actually does really well with her dramatic scenes (particularly when she's lying in her hospital bed and tells Xander to stay away from her) so it's almost as if she got worse as time went on. Her best scene is the end of You're Welcome but even Charisma says she was barley even acting in that scene so that probably explains why the emotion rang so true.

Charisma's strength is definitely comedy and snark. Pretty much nobody can do it better and she's very charming when she gets to play that side of the character. But there's just no way she could handle most of Buffy's storylines. I think she's great, but could anybody really imagine her in Innocence, or The Body, or the end of Forever, or Dead Things? etc.

I don't want to sound like a dick. I think for the most part she played Cordy fantastically and she had moments of pure brilliance. I think Whedon totally entrusted in her ability to deliver snark when he wrote that fantastic Cordy VS Lilah scene in Billy, for example. But she's just not well-rounded enough to play a character like Buffy.

HisMRS
03-02-12, 04:46 AM
Hm, where to begin...

a) I find SMG to be extremely attractive and disagree that she isn't a 'hot Slayer'

b) With all due respect to Mercedes, I find Sarah to be by far the more superior actress and believe the show was much better off with her in the lead role

c) The 'majority audience' was actually not male. I absolutely think that BtVS caters to both sexes but the majority of the audience was actually female and the WB advertised the show for the female market.

d) The show is written by a feminist and was meant to represent feminist ideas. So basing who should play the part of Buffy on how "hot" the actress is, is extremely misogynistic and demeaning.

So in other words -- No.


Totally, totally agree, especially about the second point. I really don't like Mercedes' acting style. I've seen her in other things, including dramatic roles, and I don't care for her. I don't think she would have been a better Buffy at all.

Ahm Shere
03-02-12, 03:16 PM
Mercedes as Buffy? Definitely not. I can honestly say that I would not have enjoyed Buffy as much (or probably at all) if she had taken the lead. Her voice is highly annoying and I really don't think she is anywhere near the standard which SMG was for Buffy. (I also think that SMG is far prettier than Mercedes). I have only ever seen her in Buffy and 'The Addams Family Values' however...so I've not got much to go off.

If Julie Benz was younger at the time of Buffy, I could see her playing the part. However in 1996 she looked far too old to be playing the character of a 16 year old...

Ryan as Xander? Oh my word, hell yes. Ryan is such a fantastic actor and can definitely play "serious". 'The Amityville Horror' had me loving Ryan all over again. I could probably say I'd have enjoyed Xander's character a lot more if Reynolds was playing the part, I'm slightly bias though.

dina
04-02-12, 01:26 AM
And Dina... wow. Okay. Here's the difference. Drlloyd asserted as fact (I'll paraphrase) "here's how Tara was supposed to come back". That, again, see above, is an assertion of fact. I asked if there were other facts that could support his assertion, and the response was to link other instances of him asserting it himself.

In comparison, that would be asking "okay Nick, can you give any other facts that support the claim that Joss considered you for Mal?" and for Nick to go "oh, sure", and reach down and link to a video of him saying it, and then a transcript of him saying it.

For Nick Brendan's part, thankfully he was surrounded by civilized people who ostensibly just don't assume he's a liar -- probably for no other reason than some whack hostility they have for the character he played -- and he wasn't asked to "prove it".

Sorry, but one equals none in such cases. It's like going to the court hearing the defendant claiming that he was in a club the night of the murder and you want the jury to believe him because none of the actual clients that were in the club that night doesn't testify that the defendant wasn't there.

Unless you have more proof about it other than Nick himself and of course unless you give us exactly the interview that Nick said it, if he has ever said it, to see the circumstances under which that statement was made, I can't see any way you can convince me that Joss offered him that role.

KingofCretins
04-02-12, 02:36 AM
Sorry, but one equals none in such cases. It's like going to the court hearing the defendant claiming that he was in a club the night of the murder and you want the jury to believe him because none of the actual clients that were in the club that night doesn't testify that the defendant wasn't there.

Unless you have more proof about it other than Nick himself and of course unless you give us exactly the interview that Nick said it, if he has ever said it, to see the circumstances under which that statement was made, I can't see any way you can convince me that Joss offered him that role.

So you're just committed to actor-bashing, calling Nick Brendan a liar. Good on you. I could not care less if you believe it or not. I'm just surprised that many people just assume one of the actors is flat out fabricating a story like that in a Q&A.

dina
04-02-12, 03:34 AM
So you're just committed to actor-bashing, calling Nick Brendan a liar. Good on you. I could not care less if you believe it or not. I'm just surprised that many people just assume one of the actors is flat out fabricating a story like that in a Q&A.
Yeah since actors never lie about anything. And since I personally don't know the guy, no I don't believe whatever he and only he says, especially when he talks about a period that he was already a regular in another show and also had drinking problems so serious that in the next months his Xander role was diminished and the network wanted to fire him. And drinking problems don't just happen from one day to another. Does this make him a liar? Maybe. It all depends on the circumstances that he made that statement. Maybe he was joking IDK. But until someone else confirms it, it can't be considered as truth. And since he has never said that again, I tend to think that probably that was a joke, if he actually had said it.

Veverka
04-02-12, 05:30 AM
Do I see Mercedes McNab as Buffy? No. I enjoy the character of Harmony, but nothing has ever convinced me that she's a strong enough character to play much more than what she was given as Harmony. On a more superficial level, I don't care for her looks- SMG is a much more interesting looking person.

Do I think Julia Lee would have had a shot? Yeah, I do. There's something about her.

In another vein, are there many characters I would have liked to be played by anyone else? Xander bashing aside, I don't think NB is as strong a actor as any of the others. I think his character is okay, nothing against Xander, I just think NB is not as strong an actor.

TimeTravellingBunny
04-02-12, 06:39 AM
Does anyone know some other interesting info about who auditioned for which role?

So far I know the following:

Riff Regan was initially cast as Willow (and can be seen in the unaired pilot). Stephen Tobolowsky played Principal Flutie.

Julie Benz (Darla), Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia), Mercedes Mcnab (Harmony), Julia Lee (Chanterelle/Lily/Anne) and Elizabeth Anne Allen (Amy) auditioned for Buffy.

Sarah Michelle Gellar and Bianca Lawson (Kendra) auditioned for Cordelia.

Danny Strong (Jonathan) and Ryan Reynolds auditioned for Xander.

Nathan Fillion auditioned for Angel.

K Todd Freeman (Mr. Trick) auditioned for Spike.

Christian Kane (Lindsey) auditioned for Riley.

Morena Baccarin was supposed to play Eve, but FOX wouldn't allow it because she was in the pilot for some show of theirs (that never went into production).

KingofCretins
04-02-12, 07:24 AM
K Todd Freeman as Spike would have been pretty cool, IMO. Keeping in mind as to what that casting call was actually for at the time; it has nothing to do with who is photogenic wearing Sarah Michelle Gellar as a shirt. Mr. Trick was disappointingly short-lived as a villain.

The Ryan Reynolds as Xander thing still boggles the mind... I think that would have led to some serious fundamental shifts in the direction of the story, at least in so far as the story is shaped by audience response.

vampmogs
04-02-12, 08:29 AM
It's so unfortunate that Morena Baccarin didn't get to play Eve. Nothing against Sarah Thompson but, IMO, she just has no sex appeal whatsoever and came across as more annoying than seductive in her scenes with Angel. She also seemed like such a child in comparison to Lilah whereas Morena would have brought a matureness to the role. I’d be willing to bet that the character would have been far more popular if Morena had been allowed to play the part.

I really can't see Nathan Fillion as Angel and am actually thankful that it never happened. Maybe it's because I keep picturing him as Caleb but I just couldn't ever see Fillion and Gellar having any kind of sexual chemistry. And would he have kept his accent?

Unfortunately, Christian Kane really grates on me (was never a fan of Lindsay) so I for one am very happy that Blucas ended up with Riley's part. I always liked Marc's portrayal of Riley and found it really earnest and I think visually he fits the ‘solider boy’ type far better than Kane would have.

I adore Sarah as Buffy and wouldn't change it for the world but she would have played Cordy very well. Whenever Buffy had to get bitchy with Cordy she always held her own and who could forget her portrayal of Katherine in Cruel Intentions?

I never knew K Todd Freeman auditioned for Spike! I'm in the small minority who never really cared about Mr Trick (everybody seems to wish he stuck around) so I don't find the actor very memorable.

Does anybody know if ASH auditioned for Giles or if Joss approached him? I know that for Dollhouse Joss actually rang up Olivia Williams and asked her to come over to the US and play the part of Adelle, and I’ve never heard about Anthony having to audition? I always just hear how he was very well known from coffee adverts.

sueworld
04-02-12, 09:48 AM
Keeping in mind as to what that casting call was actually for at the time; it has nothing to do with who is photogenic wearing Sarah Michelle Gellar as a shirt

Really? Considering DB had only been even spotted for the role and pushed forward by the casting agent due to his looks? As Whedon said in one of those group interview malarkey's (was it one of the DVD's?) when addressing his actors (and I'm paraphrasing here) "It may have escaped your notice but you're not exactly been chosen for your acting ability alone".

Much as I liked the actor who played Trick, I don't think (for me at least) he made much of an impact, and I dread to think what sort of Spike we would have ended up with. I suspect one that did indeed get 'offed' in season 2 never to return.

buffyholic
04-02-12, 11:49 AM
I don´t know how many of you watch Ringer or watched the Comic Con panel of Ringer. But Sarah said that the guy who plays Henry, Kristopher Polana, auditioned for Riley and the final call was between him and Marc.

As I said before, Ryan as Xander would have been interesting but now that I´ve seen the show multiple times I can´t imagine anyone else playing those parts.

KingofCretins
04-02-12, 01:55 PM
Really? Considering DB had only been even spotted for the role and pushed forward by the casting agent due to his looks? As Whedon said in one of those group interview malarkey's (was it one of the DVD's?) when addressing his actors (and I'm paraphrasing here) "It may have escaped your notice but you're not exactly been chosen for your acting ability alone".

Much as I liked the actor who played Trick, I don't think (for me at least) he made much of an impact, and I dread to think what sort of Spike we would have ended up with. I suspect one that did indeed get 'offed' in season 2 never to return.

Nobody reading for Spike was reading for a role that was at the time ever going to come anywhere near a romance with the title character, was the very specific point I was making. Anybody tells you different is Mike Sierra Tango -- "makin' sh*t up". And for that matter, it's not like Freeman isn't a pretty damn handsome guy. Ugh, I should have known that even a hypothetical recasting of Spike from back when he was a villain would have yielded some militant pushback in defense of a storyline that happened four seasons later.

dina
04-02-12, 02:18 PM
K Todd Freeman as Spike would have been pretty cool, IMO
Well since Marsters managed to win the fans and because of him Spike instead of getting dusted became Whedon's most developed character, and since Freeman's role got dusted after a few episodes, I totally disagree with that.

Had Spike been played by Freeman he wouldn't have lasted more that 2-3 episodes.

sueworld
04-02-12, 02:42 PM
Nobody reading for Spike was reading for a role that was at the time ever going to come anywhere near a romance with the title character,

What has that got to do with anything? No as JM always openly states they were running out of time when they cast him so even though he may not have been their ideal choice they went with him. First coloring his hair black and trying him with a southern accent. But in the end went with the Brit Punk look and sound and here we are.

I do personally think they made the right choice as as far as charisma on screen goes as I think JM has that in spades, whilst the other chap, not so much. But thats just my own take on it.


Ugh, I should have known that even a hypothetical recasting of Spike from back when he was a villain would have yielded some militant pushback in defense of a storyline that happened four seasons later.

In your own mind, but not mine I'm afraid.

Themb
04-02-12, 03:09 PM
It's so unfortunate that Morena Baccarin didn't get to play Eve. Nothing against Sarah Thompson but, IMO, she just has no sex appeal whatsoever and came across as more annoying than seductive in her scenes with Angel. She also seemed like such a child in comparison to Lilah whereas Morena would have brought a matureness to the role. I’d be willing to bet that the character would have been far more popular if Morena had been allowed to play the part.


I personally cannot see here in that role at all and I really loved Sarah Thompson. She just portrayed a type of innocence in that role, which ran totally in contrast which the things you expected from here and which she delivered once here arc with Lindsey came out.

I have not seen a lot of Morena Baccarin, but I personally find her not only less attractive than Sarah Thompson, but also totally unfit based on the looks. I think there is no way she could ever display such an innocence as Sarah Thompson did. And I find her smile/grin extremely annoying so I'm quite happy with the decision.

Stoney
04-02-12, 07:34 PM
But in the end went with the Brit Punk look and sound and here we are.

I do personally think they made the right choice as as far as charisma on screen goes as I think JM has that in spades, whilst the other chap, not so much. But thats just my own take on it.


I spent a while mulling on this casting debate and have concluded that I am too settled in with the characters as portrayed by the existing actors, especially when it comes to my faves, particularly Spike, to see viable alternatives. This is why I always feel disappointed when the comic artistry strays too far away from the actor images, they are inextricably linked for me.

Can't play - accept no substitutes.

sueworld
04-02-12, 07:44 PM
Yeah same here. Thats why Jeanty's weird fughly versions of the characters really don't help me connect with the story I'm afraid. in fact when he at his worst likeness wise he can really make it very hard to feel anything for any of the characters I'm looking at.

KingofCretins
04-02-12, 08:06 PM
What has that got to do with anything?

Apart from how it was the entire point of the disclaimer I made before mentioning that I thought he would have made an interesting Spike in the first place? That I thought... ever so foolishly... that I could contemplate a different actor having been brought in to play what was cast as a short-run villain turn, without a raft of butthurt coming back, as long as I made it clear I wasn't talking about Spike's extended role, which was built around the actor they hired.

TimeTravellingBunny
04-02-12, 08:15 PM
I personally cannot see here in that role at all and I really loved Sarah Thompson. She just portrayed a type of innocence in that role, which ran totally in contrast which the things you expected from here and which she delivered once here arc with Lindsey came out.

I have not seen a lot of Morena Baccarin, but I personally find her not only less attractive than Sarah Thompson, but also totally unfit based on the looks. I think there is no way she could ever display such an innocence as Sarah Thompson did. And I find her smile/grin extremely annoying so I'm quite happy with the decision.
I don't think that Eve was meant to be innocent - I think that the actress didn't have the presence required for the role and came off looking like a little girl playing at being tough and dangerous. I think that it was a wrong casting decision and that the character didn't work as a villain, as a Wolfram & Hart employee and as a replacement for Lilah. Morena Baccarin (who I think is also far more attractive than Sarah Thompson) has the maturity and presence and could be really convincing and seductive rather than annoying. (Plus, more Firefly people as Buffyverse villains. :))

I didn't know about Kristoffer Polaha (I didn't see Ringer but I know him as Baze on Life Unexpected, and he also guest starred on Dollhouse) auditioning for Riley. Riley is another character that I can see recast and that makes me ponder "what if?" Marc Blucas was fine as the character that Riley ended up being, but that the character would've probably developed differently with a different actor. If we're talking about "wholesome farm boy turned soldier, kind of bland and cardboard and the guy that Buffy thinks as nice and solid" then Blucas is the right guy, but if you asked me who I'd cast as "new love interest for Buffy (who's also a farm boy turned soldier)", I'd much rather go with Christian Kane or Kristoffer Polaha. A part of that is certainly due to the fact that I don't find Blucas attractive at all, which is a matter of taste, but while I have no idea how much chemistry SMG would have with either of those actors (people who have seen Ringer might have an opinion on her chemistry with Polaha, I suppose?), it's hard to imagine it could've been weaker than her chemistry with Blucas. With Kane, I admit that I could imagine him more easily with SMG since he's shortish and there's no huge height difference that was with SMG and Blucas. Polaha is a kind of "very attractive in an ordinary way" guy (as opposed to "gorgeous" guy with great cheekbones, jaws and piercing eyes) and he's got a lot of charm and likeability (as seen in Life Unexpected). While he's even taller than Blucas, the height difference between him and SMG might have looked cute rather than awkward (Shiri Appleby is just a little taller than SMG, and they look cute and quite natural together), since he's far more charismatic than Blucas and would've probably fit better with SMG. I never understood the logic between pairing up a tiny, tough and charismatic woman with a big, bland guy (and they did it again with Ben in season 5).

But, if someone more charismatic was playing Riley, the storyline might have ended very differently; Riley might have been more popular, the relationship might have lasted longer, and maybe Spuffy wouldn't have happened, the entire storyline of seasons 5-7 might have been very different... so, in the end, I'm happy with the Riley we got and don't want to think of the Riley that could have been.


K Todd Freeman as Spike would have been pretty cool, IMO. Keeping in mind as to what that casting call was actually for at the time; it has nothing to do with who is photogenic wearing Sarah Michelle Gellar as a shirt. Mr. Trick was disappointingly short-lived as a villain.

Not nearly as cool and amazing as the Spike we got, obviously (except I suppose for people who wish that Spike had been killed off in season 2). Yes, the original idea for Spike was that he was to be a cool, funny, interesting villain that the audience believed to be the Big Bad for a while, and who gets dusted halfway through the season to make room for a person close to Buffy to go dark and become the real villain of the season. It seems completely unnecessary to wish you could've seen K Todd Freeman play the Original Idea for Spike, when in fact we all did see K Todd Freeman play that role. It was in season 3 and he was called Mr. Trick and yes, he was cool. Mr. Trick is the Original Idea for Spike carried over to season 3, plus one of the few black people on the show. (Though Freeman has said that he was meant to be in just one episode in season 3 and then they liked the character and wrote him into 5 more.)

On the other hand, James Marsters being cast as Spike was one of those amazing bouts of luck that lead to the character becoming much more important, developed and long-lived than anyone expected when they were devising the character.


Really? Considering DB had only been even spotted for the role and pushed forward by the casting agent due to his looks? As Whedon said in one of those group interview malarkey's (was it one of the DVD's?) when addressing his actors (and I'm paraphrasing here) "It may have escaped your notice but you're not exactly been chosen for your acting ability alone".

Much as I liked the actor who played Trick, I don't think (for me at least) he made much of an impact, and I dread to think what sort of Spike we would have ended up with. I suspect one that did indeed get 'offed' in season 2 never to return.
Angel was always intended as a love interest for Buffy (even when he was meant to be a short-lived character and when he wasn't even supposed to be a vampire), so it makes sense that looks and sex appeal were the crucial reason for his casting. Spike, obviously, wasn't originally intended to be a love interest for any of the main characters, though he was meant to have a relationship with Dru, and JM's chemistry with Juliet Landau was one of the reasons he was cast.



I really can't see Nathan Fillion as Angel and am actually thankful that it never happened. Maybe it's because I keep picturing him as Caleb but I just couldn't ever see Fillion and Gellar having any kind of sexual chemistry. And would he have kept his accent?
Fillion is an amazing actor, I first think of him as Captain Mal (even though I've seen him as Caleb first) but when he's playing Caleb I just see Caleb, and when he's playing Captain Hammer I just see Captain Hammer. He can transform into those completely different character and be equally convincing as a charming hero/antihero, creepy villain or a hilarious and annoying jerk/antagonist/comedy character. I've seen the results of some "20 sexiest men in Buffy/Angel" poll that the Buffy magazine did back in 2004, and Caleb was in the last place, behind people like Jonathan and Warren. It says something about how well he played Caleb that almost nobody could find Caleb sexy, just creepy, despite the fact that Nathan Fillion would otherwise be somewhere around the top of that list if people were judging the actors rather than characters.


I adore Sarah as Buffy and wouldn't change it for the world but she would have played Cordy very well. Whenever Buffy had to get bitchy with Cordy she always held her own and who could forget her portrayal of Katherine in Cruel Intentions?

I agree.

sueworld
04-02-12, 08:30 PM
Angel was always intended as a love interest for Buffy (even when he was meant to be a short-lived character and when he wasn't even supposed to be a vampire), so it makes sense that looks and sex appeal were the crucial reason for his casting. Spike, obviously, wasn't originally intended to be a love interest for any of the main characters, though he was meant to have a relationship with Dru, and JM's chemistry with Juliet Landau was one of the reasons he was cast.


Err, yes I gathered that. :lol:

Thing is when it came to the main cast, hell casting for most American TV shows in general really, looks play an important part. Often too much imo.


Apart from how it was the entire point of the disclaimer I made before mentioning that I thought he would have made an interesting Spike in the first place? That I thought... ever so foolishly... that I could contemplate a different actor having been brought in to play what was cast as a short-run villain turn, without a raft of butthurt coming back, as long as I made it clear I wasn't talking about Spike's extended role, which was built around the actor they hired.

Nah. I still think JM was abetter choice for the reasons I mentioned. Mr Trick did nothing for me I'm afraid. He just didn't seem to draw me in as much as some of other actors did.

_Buffy_
04-02-12, 08:50 PM
I don`t think that Mercedes is better choice than SMG. NO way. I like her like a Harmony and I like harmony lke a baby doll vampire but she can`t be Buffy. The truth is , I can`t imagine no one to be Buffy except Sarah. But of we talk about the strenth of the charcter, IMO Charisma will be able to do it. The problem is that in S 1 she is 26 years old if I`m not wrong , so she can`t be apropriate 16 years old high school girl.

WhiteHat
06-02-12, 08:25 AM
Would Mercedes McNab Have Been a Better Buffy Than SMG?

Too hard to tell. I'm not going to get into the whole 'who is prettier' argument. Both are very talented and charismatic actresses.


Julie Benz (Darla), Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia), Mercedes Mcnab (Harmony), Julia Lee (Chanterelle/Lily/Anne) and Elizabeth Anne Allen (Amy) auditioned for Buffy.

SMG got the role of Buffy strongly because of her diminutive stature: such a petite person would never seem like a superhero whatsoever, and that's why she was cast. The other actresses were considerably taller. Joss chose SMG because he wanted to subvert the audience's expectations of who would be best suited to step into the role after Kristy Swanson.

Mercedes could have done it, but we'll never know now.

Julia Lee was marvelous (and positively drool-worthy in "Lie to Me" :heart:). She was an actress which I wish was put to greater use in BtVS and AtS. Could she have been a competent Buffy? Perhaps. I would have liked to see an audition tape of her trying out for it.

Honestly, I just can't see E. A. Allen as Buffy. Period. She was great as Amy and a very convincing rat. (I imagine that it was hell for her to sit in the make-up trailer every morning just to fit into those tiny rat prosthetics!)


K Todd Freeman (Mr. Trick) auditioned for Spike.

Whaa?! How? When? Where? Huh??? He had a great presence as Mr. Trick and could have pulled off Spike with a swagger and panache that would have made for great TV, IMHO.

TimeTravellingBunny
07-02-12, 03:48 AM
SMG got the role of Buffy strongly because of her diminutive stature: such a petite person would never seem like a superhero whatsoever, and that's why she was cast. The other actresses were considerably taller. Joss chose SMG because he wanted to subvert the audience's expectations of who would be best suited to step into the role after Kristy Swanson.

Julie Benz is barely taller than SMG http://www.celebheights.com/s/Julie-Benz-3658.html That's why AtS was able to make all the "Angel has a thing for small blondes" comments about Darla and Buffy.

I just don't believe the height was the main reason for casting SMG. If that were the case, wouldn't they have put smaller stature as a casting requirement? In which case I don't see Charisma thinking she had a shot.

Lyri
07-02-12, 03:51 AM
I just don't believe the height was the main reason for casting SMG. If that were the case, wouldn't they have put smaller stature as a casting requirement? In which case I don't see Charisma thinking she had a shot.

I read somewhere that the reason SMG pipped everyone else was because she had a brown belt in some sort of martial art. Tea Kwon Do or something.

Plus, isn't Kirsty Swanson a lot taller than SMG? If 'small and petite' was a factor in the casting, one would think it would stretch back to the movie, but my guess is, the only requirement was 'blonde'.

TimeTravellingBunny
07-02-12, 04:04 AM
I read somewhere that the reason SMG pipped everyone else was because she had a brown belt in some sort of martial art. Tea Kwon Do or something.

Plus, isn't Kirsty Swanson a lot taller than SMG? If 'small and petite' was a factor in the casting, one would think it would stretch back to the movie, but my guess is, the only requirement was 'blonde'.
Which even isn't a requirement as it would just mean 'dye your hair if needed', which SMG did anyway.

Alyson Hannigan actually said in an interview that she and SMG dyed their hair because Joss said that the three of them (SMG, Alyson and Charisma) all had similar, brown hair so they needed to dye their hair differently for contrast and asked them who's going to be which color.

BTW, SMG's hair got much blonder between seasons 1 and 2.

Reddygirl
07-02-12, 04:18 AM
Imo, everyone on BtVS was perfectly cast and it's impossible for me to see another actor in the respective roles.

The problem with Sarah Thompson was that she and DB had *zero* chemistry. Weirdly enough ST and JM *did* have some sexual chemistry. There was one brief scene where Spike and Eve were on an elevator together and exchanged a look...

TimeTravellingBunny
07-02-12, 04:27 AM
Imo, everyone on BtVS was perfectly cast and it's impossible for me to see another actor in the respective roles.

The problem with Sarah Thompson was that she and DB had *zero* chemistry. Weirdly enough ST and JM *did* have some sexual chemistry. There was one brief scene where Spike and Eve were on an elevator together and exchanged a look...
Well, you know, JM also had sexual chemistry with crypt door and thin air...

WhiteHat
07-02-12, 08:52 AM
I read somewhere that the reason SMG pipped everyone else was because she had a brown belt in some sort of martial art. Tea Kwon Do or something.


Tea Kwon Do...the only martial art where you can kick down a door with a strong cup of Earl Grey. :lol:

I had this mental image that Julie Benz was tall. I wonder why...? Hmm. She does have a very striking presence on screen which makes her seem taller. ;)

sueworld
07-02-12, 10:06 AM
The other actresses were considerably taller.

Oooh, It depends on who you're talking about. The average height of a lot of the women in the cast was very small, and JM was wee too. It was only ASH that had some height to him, followed by Nick Brendon. Oh and of course Riley was a giant compared to everyone. :lol:

I went to a con years back where I saw J.August Richard (Gunn) where he talked did this impression of him meeting a few Buffy cast members for the first time, and he having to stoop down to almost a child's height and say in a sing song voice "Ooooh hello there. So do you work on Buffy den?" :lol:


Whaa?! How? When? Where? Huh??? He had a great presence as Mr. Trick and could have pulled off Spike with a swagger and panache that would have made for great TV, IMHO.

Imo I think the whole swagger bit he could have pulled off, but the emotion and real vulnerable side that Spike ended up showing further down the line, well not so much imo.

_Buffy_
07-02-12, 10:42 AM
I read somewhere that the reason SMG pipped everyone else was because she had a brown belt in some sort of martial art. Tea Kwon Do or something.

Plus, isn't Kirsty Swanson a lot taller than SMG? If 'small and petite' was a factor in the casting, one would think it would stretch back to the movie, but my guess is, the only requirement was 'blonde'.

Not sure. SMG is not natural blonde. Also , about the brown belt of karate- she don`t need to fight for real in the fight scenes. She has a stand in woman for this.

buffyholic
07-02-12, 11:23 AM
I love SMG as Buffy and now it´s a bit tough to imagine someone else playing the part.

Mercedes McNab is perfect as Harmony in my opinion.

TimeTravellingBunny
07-02-12, 01:51 PM
Oooh, It depends on who you're talking about. The average height of a lot of the women in the cast was very small, and JM was wee too. It was only ASH that had some height to him, followed by Nick Brendon. Oh and of course Riley was a giant compared to everyone. :lol:

I went to a con years back where I saw J.August Richard (Gunn) where he talked did this impression of him meeting a few Buffy cast members for the first time, and he having to stoop down to almost a child's height and say in a sing song voice "Ooooh hello there. So do you work on Buffy den?" :lol:
.
Nick Brendon is listed at 5'10" (178 cm), that's not considered tall for a man, and he didn't seem much taller than James (and he's not, if these heights are right, since they have JM at around 5'10"). David and Anthony Head were the only ones that were 6' or more. And Blucas, obviously. I was actually surprised to learn that D.B.Woodside is even taller - 6'3" (191 cm). I never got the impression Wood was that tall, he didn't seem to tower over people like Blucas. Maybe because he's not broad-shouldered and huge like Blucas and didn't seem like an 'enormous hall monitor'. :lol:

Charisma always seemed tall and statuesque on both shows, but apparently she's 5'5 1/2" (166 cm), which is more like average height. How big heels did she wear? That's the second surprise. I already figured that Emma and Amber probably looked taller thanks to the relative height of the rest of the cast.

That website has the best comment about Tom Lenk's height (they put it 5 ft 6.75 in -170 cm, or less) "Danny Strong made this guy look taller than you'd imagine." :lol:
http://www.celebheights.com/s/Tom-Lenk-4756.html

sueworld
07-02-12, 02:38 PM
Ooooh, sorry love imo wee Jimmy is not 5' 10". Not by along shot I'm afraid. he's only about 5' 7/8" tops.

Why do you think I my nickname for him is 'wee Jimmy'? :lol:

TimeTravellingBunny
07-02-12, 03:30 PM
Ooooh, sorry love imo wee Jimmy is not 5' 10". Not by along shot I'm afraid. he's only about 5' 7/8" tops.

Why do you think I my nickname for him is 'wee Jimmy'? :lol:
They don't list JM as 5'10", they list Nick as 5'10". JM they list as 5'9" but there's always debate in the comments, those are their guesses.

sueworld
07-02-12, 06:06 PM
Yeah, but they're off by quite a bit imo. You only have to meet the wee thing to realise, well, just how wee he really is. :lol:

Although saying that dear little Danny Strong is so small you feel you could pick him up and hang him on your Christmas tree, bless him.

KingofCretins
07-02-12, 06:15 PM
I find it almost uncanny how consistently short TV and movie actors are, like major stars. Always North American male average and shorter, it seems. All I can think is that it comes down to sight lines and photogenics with the often shorter-still actresses they'll be with. More Blucases, Ryan Reynoldses, Adam Baldwinses, Zachary Levis, Jared Padaleckis, I say. Tall people of the world unite!

Lyri
07-02-12, 06:24 PM
Not sure. SMG is not natural blonde. Also , about the brown belt of karate- she don`t need to fight for real in the fight scenes. She has a stand in woman for this.

No, she's not a natural blonde, but if it's in the casting sheets and it's a must for the character, then she would know going for the role that she would have to dye her hair. The character is known for being blonde, so anyone going up for the role would know that they would have to either be blonde or would be expected to dye her hair.

Also, this is from her IMDB page:


She studied Tae Kwon Do for five years, and now she's taking kickboxing, boxing, street fighting and gymnastics.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001264/bio

and I read the same thing in, I think, one of the Watcher Diaries books.

She might have had a stunt double for the more involved fight scenes, but I imagine it would have been a hell of a lot easier for the writers and producers to have a principle actress who knows how to fall into a fighting stance on instinct, as opposed to spending money and time in teaching her. She didn't have a stand in for EVERY scene in which she had to do some form of fighting. (throw a punch or kick for example.)

KingofCretins
07-02-12, 06:39 PM
She might have had a stunt double for the more involved fight scenes, but I imagine it would have been a hell of a lot easier for the writers and producers to have a principle actress who knows how to fall into a fighting stance on instinct, as opposed to spending money and time in teaching her. She didn't have a stand in for EVERY scene in which she had to do some form of fighting. (throw a punch or kick for example.)

Make no mistake, though, she was not Tahmoh doing his own Muy Thai, either. Sarah's training was useful first and foremost, over and above even her ability to throw a convincing punch, kick, or block in a close-up, was for matching her stuntwomen (Sophia Crawford, Michelle Waitman, Melissa Barker, I'm not sure whose else -- I think it was Sophia Crawford whose physical attributes prompted the production phrase "Buffy puts her fightin' boobs on", though).

The question I am most curious for any Slayer or vampire actor in the Buffyverse is whether they could do their own kip up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip-up). The only ones that I think either can or that they did the best job fooling me were Marsters and Dushku.

Lyri
07-02-12, 06:46 PM
Make no mistake, though, she was not Tahmoh doing his own Muy Thai, either. Sarah's training was useful first and foremost, over and above even her ability to throw a convincing punch, kick, or block in a close-up, was for matching her stuntwomen (Sophia Crawford, Michelle Waitman, Melissa Barker, I'm not sure whose else -- I think it was Sophia Crawford whose physical attributes prompted the production phrase "Buffy puts her fightin' boobs on", though).

Agreed, but it was still something that was taken into consideration, I feel, when casting. As far as I can tell, none of the other actresses considered had any sort of martial arts training.


The question I am most curious for any Slayer or vampire actor in the Buffyverse is whether they could do their own kip up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip-up). The only ones that I think either can or that they did the best job fooling me were Marsters and Dushku.

I don't remember any scene with SMG doing that, not off the top of my head, anyway. In what scene was the Faith kip up? I remember Marsters' scene. And Blucas did a kip up in S4.

KingofCretins
07-02-12, 07:41 PM
Agreed, but it was still something that was taken into consideration, I feel, when casting. As far as I can tell, none of the other actresses considered had any sort of martial arts training.



I don't remember any scene with SMG doing that, not off the top of my head, anyway. In what scene was the Faith kip up? I remember Marsters' scene. And Blucas did a kip up in S4.

They had Eliza at least appear to kip up when the Slayers rallied in "Chosen", right after she did whatever otherwise inexplicable telekinetic AOE knockback on the ubervamps :) But they might have snuck a stunt in on it.

I don't remember when Spike kips up, just that he did and that I had no impression that they edited around a stuntman doing it for him.

Lyri
07-02-12, 07:46 PM
They had Eliza at least appear to kip up when the Slayers rallied in "Chosen", right after she did whatever otherwise inexplicable telekinetic AOE knockback on the ubervamps :) But they might have snuck a stunt in on it.

Ah, yes, I remember that. Thank you.


I don't remember when Spike kips up, just that he did and that I had no impression that they edited around a stuntman doing it for him.

I think Spike's was sometime in S5. I don't remember the exact episode either, lol, but I do remember seeing it.

vampmogs
08-02-12, 07:26 AM
Spike does that move in both Harsh Light of Day and Touched. It could have been some very clever editing but in both episodes, particularly the former, it looks like Marsters did it himself. And Blucas does it when his character is sparring with Buffy in A New Man. I think both are pretty impressive and liked to do a lot of stunts themselves.

In regards to Sarah, whilst her stuntwomen did a lot of work, Joss has mentioned a few times how impressed he was with her skills. In the commentary for Lessons he mentions how they had originally just planned to use the stuntwoman for most of the scene when Buffy is fighting the zombies with her bag of bricks, but Sarah decided she wanted to do it herself and after a quick training session she came in and did most of the scene all on her own. He’s also gone on record as saying how impressed he was with her sword fighting ability when they were shooting Becoming II and in the commentary for Selfless Goddard also states how Sarah and Emma were mostly swinging the blades around themselves.

Sarah does a very impressive high kick. During the Buffy VS Faith fight in Graduation I there’s a great shot of her when Buffy spins Faith around and kicks her in the face. That was all Sarah. She does it again in Hush when battling the Gentleman and their minions. If I could lift my leg half as high I would be very lucky :roll:

Eliza Dushku stated on a radio show how when she started BtVS she was so eager to do as much of the fighting as she could and eventually Sarah became competitive so the actresses would always try and persuade the writers to add in big epic battles (especially against each other).

sueworld
08-02-12, 01:59 PM
Spike does that move in both Harsh Light of Day and Touched. It could have been some very clever editing but in both episodes, particularly the former, it looks like Marsters did it himself.

Do you mean that get up knees first jump thingy? Because If so yes, thats all Marsters. He's a spry little sod when he wants to be.

buffyholic
08-02-12, 03:57 PM
There´s a scene in "Doomed" where she (Sarah) does that kip up thing. And I remember that Eliza just loved fight scenes and getting all black and blue. She also said that David loved that too.

MikeB
04-03-12, 10:00 AM
SMG’s chemistry with David Boreanaz and James Marsters is a big reason for the success of the show. David and James didn’t have better chemistry with Mercedes McNab (or Charisma Carpenter, Julie Benz, etc.).

SMG had martial arts training and Mercedes McNab didn’t nor did Charisma Carpenter, Julie Benz, etc.

SMG is more physically attractive than Mercedes McNab, Julie Benz, etc. Charisma Carpenter it can be argued was more physically attractive.



vampmogs


c) The 'majority audience' was actually not male. I absolutely think that BtVS caters to both sexes but the majority of the audience was actually female and the WB advertised the show for the female market. BtVS had very strong male demographics, some of the strongest in the 18-34 demo of any show on network TV. At one point, it had the strongest male demo for its timeslot on Tuesday (or maybe it was even all of Tuesday primetime). And it wasn’t advertised just to the female market. Buffy and Cordelia and Faith weren’t wearing revealing clothing for the female audience. Anyways, the show was promoted to the 18-24 and 18-34 demos.


d) The show is written by a feminist and was meant to represent feminist ideas. So basing who should play the part of Buffy on how "hot" the actress is, is extremely misogynistic and demeaning. Joss even mentions that one of the reasons SMG was hired is because of her ability to play “girlishness”. And do you remember Buffy’s outfits in Seasons 1-3?

_________________________________________________


Charisma's strength is definitely comedy and snark. Pretty much nobody can do it better and she's very charming when she gets to play that side of the character. Of the Whedonverse people, James Marsters, Emma Caulfield, and perhaps even Mercedes McNab are better. When was Cordy funny? As for snark, Cordy was able to do that because of her ‘richest girl in school’ status. And her snark on AtS wasn’t as good.

__________________________________________________


I just couldn't ever see Fillion and Gellar having any kind of sexual chemistry. They had it when Sarah was playing First Buffy albeit it was pretty much like SMG with Charlie Weber (Ben), meaning all she had to show was a little flirting.


Does anybody know if ASH auditioned for Giles or if Joss approached him? I know that for Dollhouse Joss actually rang up Olivia Williams and asked her to come over to the US and play the part of Adelle, and I’ve never heard about Anthony having to audition? I always just hear how he was very well known from coffee adverts. It’s on the DVDs that ASH auditioned and it seems like Marcia Shulman casted him.



Golden Boy


I think the truth is that it was actually the actress who played Cordelia who was SMG's main competition for the lead role, but I could be wrong on that. If I remember correctly, SMG had already gotten the part of Cordelia but she wanted to play Buffy and the WB execs thought she’d be good for Buffy and so she auditioned for Buffy and got it.



Stoney


SMG isn't 'pretty' but is interestingly attractive in a way that suits the nature of the character. She fits the definition of pretty .



KingofCretins


I don't know of Mercedes McNab ever being in high contention for that part. My understanding was that #2 was Julie Benz and #3 was Charisma. Julie Benz says that she was never really in the running because she was too old for the part anyways. Charisma Carpenter while she wanted the role never was really in contention either. She’s even older and also had no martial arts training. Pretty much Joss and Marcia Shulman were still looking and the WB execs wanted them to try Sarah Michelle Gellar – who if I remember correctly had gotten the role of Cordelia – for Buffy. It’s very likely a huge reason why SMG was so loyal and loving to the WB.


Julie Benz as Buffy is something I've tried to ponder, and I could totally have seen the show still hitting with her in the lead. She’s not only too old, she didn’t have any martial arts training. Plus, she doesn’t’ have chemistry with James Marsters.

_________________________________________________


about [Julie Benz] -- I think what Joss saw in her that him keep bringing her back is a very vital and real thing and that she actually could have done something very memorable with that part. Just a hunch. Huh? Darla was only brought back after the “The Harvest” (1.02) to give Angel some backstory and then for flashbacks. Then she was brought back for AtS because of the backstory thing and to provide Angel with a ‘love interest’.


I think it would have been a much different romantic landscape in the very least if the loyal best friend guy was played by a semi-permanent fixture in People's 50 Most Beautiful, if nothing else. Well, in the Original Pilot, Xander was Buffy’s love interest. Angel was created by David Greenwalt and pretty much stayed on only because of SMG’s chemistry with David Boreanaz. Xander in the actual series simply wasn’t ‘cool’ and ‘dark’ enough for Buffy. Ryan Reynolds playing Xander would still have those problems. Buffy would have still gone for Angel.


I still ponder what Nick Brendan might have done with Nathan's most famous role had it been offered to him as, apparently, was a real possibility at one point. Nick wanted to remain on BtVS. I never heard that Malcolm Reynolds was offered to Nick, but why would he want to take such a pay cut?

__________________________________________________


I'm very sure that if James Marsters had offered the same [as Nic Brendon’s] independent story of him having been considered for Mal and we had no comment from Joss or Nathan or anyone else affirming or refuting it James Marsters wouldn’t have taken the pay cut and wouldn’t have unnecessarily left the role of Spike and stopped working with Sarah Michelle Gellar whom he was still ‘BFFs’ with.

Regarding Nic and James: Nic was bitter that in Season 6 and 7 that James was second – or pretty much 1A – lead and that James was wanted for Faith the Vampire Slayer and AtS season 5 while Nic wasn’t.

Regarding Nic and Aly: both had already signed Season 8 contracts when SMG announced in Entertainment Weekly that she was quitting the show. Nic wanted to stay in the Buffyverse.

_________________________________________________


K Todd Freeman [Mr. Trick] as Spike would have been pretty cool, IMO. Keeping in mind as to what that casting call was actually for at the time; it has nothing to do with who is photogenic wearing Sarah Michelle Gellar as a shirt. “Keeping in mind as to what that casting call was actually for at the time”: the boy toy of Drusilla who’s killed two Slayers. Juliet Landau wanted James Marsters – of the three that auditioned with her – to play the role. The chemistry and dynamic between Juliet and James is a large part of what made Spike in “School Hard” (2.03) and after.

And, um, Nicholas Brendan was originally cast to play Buffy’s boyfriend so why the snide remark about Spuffy in Season 6?


Mr. Trick was disappointingly short-lived as a villain. Well, the Mayor and Faith were simply more interesting.


The Ryan Reynolds as Xander thing still boggles the mind... I think that would have led to some serious fundamental shifts in the direction of the story, at least in so far as the story is shaped by audience response. Not unless SMG liked Ryan Reynolds more than she liked David Boreanaz and James Marsters and had better chemistry with Ryan than she did with those two.

_________________________________________________


Nobody reading for Spike was reading for a role that was at the time ever going to come anywhere near a romance with the title character, According to what? The future possibility of Buffy/Spike was there in “School Hard” (2.03).


Ugh, I should have known that even a hypothetical recasting of Spike from back when he was a villain would have yielded some militant pushback in defense of a storyline that happened four seasons later. You’re the one who made that snide remark about Buffy wearing Spike for a shirt. There hadn’t been a single post before that that suggested any of the actors were hired simply for their looks.

_________________________________________________


Sarah's training was useful first and foremost, over and above even her ability to throw a convincing punch, kick, or block in a close-up, was for matching her stuntwomen (Sophia Crawford, Michelle Waitman, Melissa Barker, I'm not sure whose else -- I think it was Sophia Crawford whose physical attributes prompted the production phrase "Buffy puts her fightin' boobs on", though). SMG having the martial arts training was one of the things that put her above the other women trying to get the role of Buffy Summers.


The question I am most curious for any Slayer or vampire actor in the Buffyverse is whether they could do their own kip up. The only ones that I think either can or that they did the best job fooling me were Marsters and Dushku. That’s something to think about. David Boreanaz, James Marsters, Eliza Dushku, Marc Blucas, J. Augustus Richards – did any of them have any martial arts training before landing their respective roles? SMG could at least do things like high kicks.



TimeTravellingBunny


as far as acting talent and presence go, Julie Benz is the only one out of the actresses that auditioned that can give SMG a run for her money Since when? Not even on Dexter did Julie Benz show “acting talent and presence” that could rival SMG’s.

I don’t consider that Christian Kane could have pulled off Riley Finn. He’s too short and not buff enough. It would look like Xander could beat up Riley and Riley’s pushing Spike around and putting up a fight with Angel would have looked really weird had Christian Kane gotten the role.

Since seeing Nathan Fillion as Caleb and his interactions with SMG, I’ve always considered that he could have been a great Riley Finn.

_________________________________________________


I don't know if he really wanted to kill off Xander and when this would've happened (wouldn't it have been already too late since Firefly was already being filmed during early season 7?), but didn't Nick also say that he had a drinking problem during season 7 and could hardly remember his lines, which lead to his diminished role? That makes the story even less likely. Xander’s role was ‘diminished’ because Spike, Buffy, and Willow were the three most popular characters in the Buffyverse. Also, with those like Robin Wood, the Potentials, and Andrew around, what does Xander bring to the mix that was uniquely useful in the fight against the First Evil, the Bringers, Caleb, etc.

_________________________________________________


But, if someone more charismatic was playing Riley, the storyline might have ended very differently; Riley might have been more popular, the relationship might have lasted longer, and maybe Spuffy wouldn't have happened, the entire storyline of seasons 5-7 might have been very different Unless somehow Riley became more popular than Spike – the most popular character in the Buffyverse --, SMG liked the actor (him) more than James and became BFFs with him instead of James, the writers liked him more than James, and the viewers wanted Buffy/Riley more than Buffy/Spike, I don’t see any of this happening. After Angel left, pretty much 100 per cent wanted Buffy and Angel somehow to stay together and/or they wanted Buffy and Spike together. SMG wanted Spike as Buffy’s new boyfriend. Many since “School Hard” (2.03) aired wanted Spike as Buffy’s new love interest. When “Something Blue” (4.09) aired, James Marsters became a sex symbol – something that David Boreanaz never achieved when playing Angel: he was a heartthrob. Overall, for Buffy/Riley to have lasted from Seasons 4-7, it would have required viewers to prefer it over Buffy/Angel and make viewers not want Buffy/Spike.

Wow, that sounded like a love fest for James Marsters and Buffy/Spike. But the fact is that Riley Finn from the outset was a rather thankless role unless the viewers could actually prefer him for Buffy over both Angel and Spike. In ways, Riley Finn was kinda like the Season 4 and Season 5 Harmony Kendall – there until Buffy/Spike finally ramped up.

_________________________________________________


Alyson Hannigan actually said in an interview that she and SMG dyed their hair because Joss said that the three of them (SMG, Alyson and Charisma) all had similar, brown hair so they needed to dye their hair differently for contrast and asked them who's going to be which color. Huh? Of course Buffy was going to be the blonde. And Charisma on the DVDs said that the network wanted Cordelia to stay with the dark hair. I don’t see Joss asking Charisma if she wanted to be the redhead.



Veverka


In another vein, are there many characters I would have liked to be played by anyone else? Xander bashing aside, I don't think NB is as strong a actor as any of the others. I think his character is okay, nothing against Xander, I just think NB is not as strong an actor. Wholeheartedly disagree. Nic is pretty much perfect as Xander. “The Wish” (3.10?) showed that Nic could have probably played Angel, Nic played a better soldier than Marc Blucas did, and Nic certainly in the Buffyverse is a better actor than David Boreanaz, Charisma Carpenter, and Marc Blucas.



WhiteHat


SMG got the role of Buffy strongly because of her diminutive stature: such a petite person would never seem like a superhero whatsoever, and that's why she was cast. According to what? Marcia Shulman on the DVDs says that initially they were looking for someone of Kristy Swanson’s-type build.


Joss chose SMG because he wanted to subvert the audience's expectations of who would be best suited to step into the role after Kristy Swanson. The WB chose her. Joss didn’t ‘choose’ the three most important roles – for the series’ survival. The WB wanted SMG as Buffy. Marcia Shulman and Gail Berman wanted David Boreanaz as Angel. And Juliet Landau wanted James Marsters as Spike.



sueworld


The average height of a lot of the women in the cast was very small, and JM was wee too. He’s listed as 5’9.5” on his IMDb bio, which is still slightly above average height for an adult male in the United States.


I went to a con years back where I saw J.August Richard (Gunn) where he talked did this impression of him meeting a few Buffy cast members for the first time, and he having to stoop down to almost a child's height and say in a sing song voice "Ooooh hello there. So do you work on Buffy den?" Wow, that was rude of him. And stupid. AtS only existed because of the success of BtVS.

KingofCretins
04-03-12, 11:54 PM
She’s not only too old, she didn’t have any martial arts training. Plus, she doesn’t’ have chemistry with James Marsters.

I don't know what I find more bizarre -- that you're concluding from barely more than zero screen time that Julie Benz and James Marsters had no chemistry, or that you appear to seriously believe that "chemistry with James Marsters" was on the casting notes or sides for the role.

As gently as I can point this out, nobody at Mutant Enemy, in the fall of 1996, knew who the hell James Marsters was in terms of "Buffy", let alone thought of a character for him that would be intended as a short-run villain and only years later as a love interest, and made any casting decisions for Buffy Summers based on that.


Huh? Darla was only brought back after the “The Harvest” (1.02) to give Angel some backstory and then for flashbacks. Then she was brought back for AtS because of the backstory thing and to provide Angel with a ‘love interest’.

Brought back as a character includes flashbacks. Brought back because they didn't want to waste talent.


Well, in the Original Pilot, Xander was Buffy’s love interest. Angel was created by David Greenwalt and pretty much stayed on only because of SMG’s chemistry with David Boreanaz. Xander in the actual series simply wasn’t ‘cool’ and ‘dark’ enough for Buffy. Ryan Reynolds playing Xander would still have those problems. Buffy would have still gone for Angel.

Romantic fantasy is a fickle thing. Had the slightly dorky best friend suddenly been played by the best looking man in that age group in the cast, I think you'd find the audience's preferences would have shifted pretty quickly.


Regarding Nic and James: Nic was bitter that in Season 6 and 7 that James was second – or pretty much 1A – lead and that James was wanted for Faith the Vampire Slayer and AtS season 5 while Nic wasn’t.

Just flat out made up, unless you have some reference to Nick saying it or someone with actual knowledge saying it about him.


Not unless SMG liked Ryan Reynolds more than she liked David Boreanaz and James Marsters and had better chemistry with Ryan than she did with those two.

Sarah Michelle Gellar did not have any editorial control over whom Buffy did or didn't date, MikeB. You actually insult her (and the others) as an actor if you think that her "liking" them personally was even relevant to their job. It's documented in interviews and such that she was very grossed out by Adam Kaufman's (Parker) smoking, but do you not think she sold Buffy's attraction to him and fixation on him? I sure did.


According to what? The future possibility of Buffy/Spike was there in “School Hard” (2.03).

For fans, maybe, but as of "School Hard" being broken, written, and shot, Spike wasn't going to make it past mid-season. Fact.


I don’t consider that Christian Kane could have pulled off Riley Finn. He’s too short and not buff enough. It would look like Xander could beat up Riley and Riley’s pushing Spike around and putting up a fight with Angel would have looked really weird had Christian Kane gotten the role.

Christian Kane's pretty much making a mockery of this line of thinking for several seasons now as the Big Guy on "Leverage", but he managed to match Boreanaz physically in "You're Welcome".


Spike – the most popular character in the Buffyverse --,

I lol'd. Buffy, dude.


Veverka

Wholeheartedly disagree. Nic is pretty much perfect as Xander. “The Wish” (3.10?) showed that Nic could have probably played Angel, Nic played a better soldier than Marc Blucas did, and Nic certainly in the Buffyverse is a better actor than David Boreanaz, Charisma Carpenter, and Marc Blucas.

I'm actually just surprised you're saying something this complimentary of Nick Brendan.

Jack Shaftoe
05-03-12, 12:24 AM
SMG is more physically attractive than Mercedes McNab, Julie Benz, etc. Charisma Carpenter it can be argued was more physically attractive.

"Can be argued"? So I guess SMG being more attractive than Julie Benz is a fact then? Silly me, I always thought beauty was subjective.


When was Cordy funny?

Quite often, if you ask me but once again those things are subjective. Joss Whedon must have thought Charisma Carpenter had a knack for comedy, otherwise he wouldn't have given her character so many funny lines.


After Angel left, pretty much 100 per cent wanted Buffy and Angel somehow to stay together and/or they wanted Buffy and Spike together.

100% of what? Fans? If yes, then please allow me to laugh at that sweeping generalization.

sueworld
05-03-12, 12:51 AM
He’s listed as 5’9.5” on his IMDb bio, which is still slightly above average height for an adult male in the United States.

It can list what It likes love, but no way is he that height.


Wow, that was rude of him. And stupid. AtS only existed because of the success of BtVS.

No It wasn't rude of him. It's called having a sense of humor.

MikeB
03-04-12, 12:10 PM
KingofCretins


I don't know what I find more bizarre -- that you're concluding from barely more than zero screen time that Julie Benz and James Marsters had no chemistry, or that you appear to seriously believe that "chemistry with James Marsters" was on the casting notes or sides for the role. Huh? This thread is about whether or not BtVS would have been better with Mercedes McNab -- or someone else who isn’t SMG – as Buffy. I never said anything about "‘chemistry with James Marsters’ was on the casting notes or sides for the role”.

I agree though that we didn’t see Spike/Darla interactions. But James says he decided to join the show when he saw a scene between Sarah and Tony Head and he implies that one of the main reasons he wanted to join – the other being the writing – was to meet SMG because James was into her. If SMG weren’t cast as Buffy, even if the show was picked up for a second season, it’s possible to likely that James wouldn’t have even bothered to audition for the show.


Brought back as a character includes flashbacks. Brought back because they didn't want to waste talent. She was good enough to be Angel’s former. She wasn’t good enough to be Buffy.


My quote: Well, in the Original Pilot, Xander was Buffy’s love interest. Angel was created by David Greenwalt and pretty much stayed on only because of SMG’s chemistry with David Boreanaz. Xander in the actual series simply wasn’t ‘cool’ and ‘dark’ enough for Buffy. Ryan Reynolds playing Xander would still have those problems. Buffy would have still gone for Angel.

Romantic fantasy is a fickle thing. Had the slightly dorky best friend suddenly been played by the best looking man in that age group in the cast, I think you'd find the audience's preferences would have shifted pretty quickly. I don’t know anyone who found Ryan Reynolds more attractive than David Boreanaz. And looks aren’t everything. Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike worked so well because of the chemistry between the actors, the actors liking each other, and the actors being friends. But also because of whom the characters were to each other and in the ‘verse. Xander getting with Buffy would simply be the dork getting the hot chick. Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike are far more interesting than that.


My quote: Regarding Nic and James: Nic was bitter that in Season 6 and 7 that James was second – or pretty much 1A – lead and that James was wanted for Faith the Vampire Slayer and AtS season 5 while Nic wasn’t.

Just flat out made up, unless you have some reference to Nick saying it or someone with actual knowledge saying it about him. None of that is made up. The FtVS thing is also right there in the “Dirty Girls” (7.18) commentary. The second lead/1A stuff is very noticeable in the Season 6 dailies.


My quote: Not unless SMG liked Ryan Reynolds more than she liked David Boreanaz and James Marsters and had better chemistry with Ryan than she did with those two.

Sarah Michelle Gellar did not have any editorial control over whom Buffy did or didn't date, MikeB. Huh? Again, we are discussing whether or not Ryan Reynolds would have been better as Xander and if him being Xander would have resulted in Buffy/Xander instead of Buffy/Angel and/or Buffy/Spike. SMG is a big reason why James Marsters was hired as a regular for Season 4. SMG told the press that after Angel was off on his own show that she wanted Buffy with Spike.


You actually insult her (and the others) as an actor if you think that her "liking" them personally was even relevant to their job. It is. It affects the set. It can affect the production. These actors have to work long hours together. It’s much better if they are friends than if they don’t like each other.


It's documented in interviews and such that she was very grossed out by Adam Kaufman's (Parker) smoking, but do you not think she sold Buffy's attraction to him and fixation on him? I sure did. She kissed Adam Kaufman how many times? How long was Buffy with Parker?


My quote: According to what? The future possibility of Buffy/Spike was there in “School Hard” (2.03).

For fans, maybe, but as of "School Hard" being broken, written, and shot, Spike wasn't going to make it past mid-season. Fact. Buffy/Spike is in the writing and in the acting. And only as the character was originally intended – before James was cast --, was Spike was going to be killed by Angel. Joss made sure to keep James’ hopes low – probably for money purposes – but after “School Hard” (2.03) aired, Spike was already the most popular character in the show.


M yquote: I don’t consider that Christian Kane could have pulled off Riley Finn. He’s too short and not buff enough. It would look like Xander could beat up Riley and Riley’s pushing Spike around and putting up a fight with Angel would have looked really weird had Christian Kane gotten the role.

Christian Kane's pretty much making a mockery of this line of thinking for several seasons now as the Big Guy on "Leverage", I don’t watch Leverage and don’t know if you mean literal ‘big guy’.


but he managed to match Boreanaz physically in "You're Welcome". Because he had magical superpowers.


My quote: Spike – the most popular character in the Buffyverse --,

I lol'd. Buffy, dude. I’m not sure who is the most popular character nowadays, but when the Buffyverse was airing, Spike was the most popular character.


My quote: Wholeheartedly disagree. Nic is pretty much perfect as Xander. “The Wish” (3.10?) showed that Nic could have probably played Angel, Nic played a better soldier than Marc Blucas did, and Nic certainly in the Buffyverse is a better actor than David Boreanaz, Charisma Carpenter, and Marc Blucas.

I'm actually just surprised you're saying something this complimentary of Nick Brendan. Since being on Buffyverse Boards in 2005 I’ve said such things about Nicholas Brendan.



Jack Shaftoe

My quote: SMG is more physically attractive than Mercedes McNab, Julie Benz, etc. Charisma Carpenter it can be argued was more physically attractive. I guess I could have said “I consider SMG…”


My quote: After Angel left, pretty much 100 per cent wanted Buffy and Angel somehow to stay together and/or they wanted Buffy and Spike together.

100% of what? Fans? If yes, then please allow me to laugh at that sweeping generalization. Viewers. And that’s true. The audience wanted Buffy with Angel or with Spike. There weren’t a lot of viewers who wanted her to get with some human or someone who wasn’t Angel or Spike.

TimeTravellingBunny
03-04-12, 01:08 PM
I don’t watch Leverage and don’t know if you mean literal ‘big guy’.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the character type "Big Guy". http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBigGuy


The Big Guy is essentially the powerhouse of the Five-Man Band. They are usually incredibly and unflinchingly loyal, and often they are the largest member and even more effective in combat than The Hero or The Lancer. They will often be the point man, they cause a disturbance and hold off the mooks while The Hero challenges the Big Bad. Of course, against stronger enemies they might end up suffering The Worf Effect; getting trounced to set up the villain as a credible threat for The Hero.

Usually what holds them back from leadership is being Dumb Muscle, they know how to knock heads together but don't do much in the way of strategy. While The Hero and The Lancer fight side-by-side, The Big Guy is a One-Man Army.


Eliot Spencer* from Leverage is a perfect example of this trope, and they make no efforts to hide it either. His label in the show is "The Hitter" (sometimes the The Retrieval Specialist but it all adds up to the same thing), and he handles both the heavy lifting and the violence, to the point where he verges on The Brute on occasion. Interestingly, he is the shortest of the main guys, and than the girls(when in they're in heels).
*Christian Kane's character.

KingofCretins
03-04-12, 03:25 PM
Viewers. And that’s true. The audience wanted Buffy with Angel or with Spike. There weren’t a lot of viewers who wanted her to get with some human or someone who wasn’t Angel or Spike.

You have no empirical data to support this. I don't think "shippers" make up, cumulatively, even half of the total viewership. I think most people that just tune in for a show don't care enough to talk about it online and don't look at the series as existing for the benefit of any one specific romance.

Lyri
03-04-12, 06:24 PM
I don’t know anyone who found Ryan Reynolds more attractive than David Boreanaz.

I do. I find Ryan Reynolds to be vastly superior to David Boreanaz in every way possible - looks, personality, acting chops - and I have done since the first time I saw him as Berg in Two Guys and a Girl.

Sweeping generalizations don't work when it comes to attraction and physical appearance.

Jack Shaftoe
03-04-12, 09:07 PM
Viewers. And that’s true. The audience wanted Buffy with Angel or with Spike. There weren’t a lot of viewers who wanted her to get with some human or someone who wasn’t Angel or Spike.

Do I even need to explain the vast difference between "there weren't a lot of viewers who didn't want [something]" and "pretty much 100 percent of viewers wanted [something]"? Or the difference between fans who care about the show enough to post on forums and those who just watch it, maybe not even every episode? And in any event, pandering to the most vocal shipping factions isn't something a showrunner should be proud of, especially if the guy in question just can't shut up about how he doesn't give people what they want but follows his own vision. :)


Xander getting with Buffy would simply be the dork getting the hot chick. Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike are far more interesting than that.

Yes, the good girl reforming the bad boy is such an incredibly original story, right? It's not like it wasn't beaten to death even when "Jane Eyre" did it, let alone today when every other TV show and like half the romance novels have it.

sueworld
03-04-12, 10:56 PM
Yes, the good girl reforming the bad boy is such an incredibly original story, right? It's not like it wasn't beaten to death even when "Jane Eyre" did it, let alone today when every other TV show and like half the romance novels have it.

Hey, If It works, It works. :D It may seem passe to you but it did seem to draw enough people in at the time.

KingofCretins
03-04-12, 11:08 PM
I think the point was "good girl reforms bad guy" is an asinine substitute when one's argument is that "dork gets the girl" is too much of a cliche -- it's a far less common romantic trope than what we were being fed.

Jack Shaftoe
03-04-12, 11:21 PM
Hey, If It works, It works.

Of course it can work - heck, I love "Jane Eyre" and other variations of the "reformed bad boy" trope, so I am not really in a position to say it needs to be avoided at any cost. The point is it doesn't win any originality points. And in any event "the dork" did get the "hot chick", albeit not the one he was interested at first, so the cliche MikeB was referring to was not avoided at all. Not that I ever wanted to see Xander/Buffy, mind you, I just don't think replacing one cliche for another is a sure recipe for great storytelling.

TimeTravellingBunny
03-04-12, 11:48 PM
Yes, the good girl reforming the bad boy is such an incredibly original story, right? It's not like it wasn't beaten to death even when "Jane Eyre" did it, let alone today when every other TV show and like half the romance novels have it.
Which story would be original? There is no possible romantic storyline that can't be classified as this or that trope that has been done many times. It's just a question of how well and how interesting you do it and if you can bring something new.

The difference between "dork winning a hot chick" and "a good girl reforming the bad boy", though? The former is a classic male fantasy, the latter is a classic female fantasy. I'd much rather have a show like Buffy feature storylines that touch on female fantasies, than on male - since, you know, it happens to have a female protagonist.


I think the point was "good girl reforms bad guy" is an asinine substitute when one's argument is that "dork gets the girl" is too much of a cliche -- it's a far less common romantic trope than what we were being fed.
If you're talking about romance novels, then it's probably rare, since they're primarily aimed at a female audience. But it's very common in today's comedies and even action movies (if they're starring Shia LeBeof).

Jack Shaftoe
04-04-12, 12:20 AM
Which story would be original? There is no possible romantic storyline that can't be classified as this or that trope that has been done many times. It's just a question of how well and how interesting you do it and if you can bring something new.

Which is exactly what I was trying to say. Neither of the two options has any claims to originality (which is what MikeB's argument was implying when he boiled down Buffy/Xander to some old cliche), so it's all about the execution and the tastes of the audience. So I find it rather ridiculous to say that one is inherently more interesting than the other.

And now I need to reply to something I had missed when I wrote my previous posts:


but after “School Hard” (2.03) aired, Spike was already the most popular character in the show..

Yeah, I am sure that after one episode Spike was more popular than even Buffy. :D Allow me to doubt that he was even your favourite character at that point, let alone the favourite of most viewers.

KingofCretins
04-04-12, 12:25 AM
If you're talking about romance novels, then it's probably rare, since they're primarily aimed at a female audience. But it's very common in today's comedies and even action movies (if they're starring Shia LeBeof).

If every piece of commercial fiction that had a choice between the two went for the dork for the next 10 years, it might have caught up to being only, oh, 5 to 1 less often than "good girl reforms the bad guy" is. Just saying, pick a lane. Embrace "good girl reforms the bad guy" for its mass appeal and being a well-trodden path, don't make up a reality in which it's bold or original storytelling.

Just devoured "The Hunger Games" trilogy, btw -- now there is a franchise that knows how to play every angle of a love triangle without A) neurotically obsessing over it, B) fetishizing it, or C) making it a foregone conclusion. The Buffyverse -- more and more often over the past year or so, too -- has sucked at all of those things.

Dipstick
04-04-12, 12:48 AM
The difference between "dork winning a hot chick" and "a good girl reforming the bad boy", though? The former is a classic male fantasy, the latter is a classic female fantasy. I'd much rather have a show like Buffy feature storylines that touch on female fantasies, than on male - since, you know, it happens to have a female protagonist.


I know that I can't be the only gal who thinks that Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike sound like utter nightmares of relationships or who was watching S2-3 and thinking that Willow/Oz is much more aspirational than Buffy/Angel.

The above is more my biased opinion but it is a matter of fact that Buffy/Angel female fantasy has been utterly trashed. Way to tame the bad boy there! Not.

KingofCretins
04-04-12, 01:05 AM
I know that I can't be the only gal who thinks that Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike sound like utter nightmares of relationships or who was watching S2-3 and thinking that Willow/Oz is much more aspirational than Buffy/Angel.

The above is more my biased opinion but it is a matter of fact that Buffy/Angel female fantasy has been utterly trashed. Way to tame the bad boy there! Not.

I would also like to add that the presumption that the show having a female protagonist means it should tend to favor female audience's fantasy tropes is pretty much a direct attack against the vision of the series and a recurring interview question Joss has given, that he doesn't see any reason why Buffy should be any less of an identifiable role model or hero to male viewers than to females.

TimeTravellingBunny
04-04-12, 01:32 AM
I would also like to add that the presumption that the show having a female protagonist means it should tend to favor female audience's fantasy tropes is pretty much a direct attack against the vision of the series and a recurring interview question Joss has given, that he doesn't see any reason why Buffy should be any less of an identifiable role model or hero to male viewers than to females.
And hooking up with a "dork" character* would help her be a model and hero to male viewers?

*I don't even think Xander's as much of a "dork" as he's made up to be, but Buffy/Xander was set up as the classic "dorky guy in love with a hot girl who only sees him as good friend" romcom storyline (and there was another, with genders reversed, in Xander/Willow).

KingofCretins
04-04-12, 02:17 AM
And hooking up with a "dork" character* would help her be a model and hero to male viewers?

More like introducing gender norms in romantic fantasy was spurious and contrary to the entire premise of the series. Suggesting that Uubiquitous Romantic Trope 4-Delta is more worthy than Recurring Romantic Trope 6-Echo because it satisfies a gender normative preference for the show's female audience is just false. That's the opposite of how Joss said he was designing this show -- he wasn't making a show "for the ladies" that guys wouldn't turn of, he was making a show about a character men and women would feel equally invested in without caring about the fact that she's a woman. The man who answered a the question "why do you write such strong women?" with by saying it's because people are still asking that question isn't coming at this show with a "female escapism gets in free, male escapism pays $5 at the door" attitude.

TimeTravellingBunny
04-04-12, 10:53 AM
More like introducing gender norms in romantic fantasy was spurious and contrary to the entire premise of the series. Suggesting that Uubiquitous Romantic Trope 4-Delta is more worthy than Recurring Romantic Trope 6-Echo because it satisfies a gender normative preference for the show's female audience is just false. That's the opposite of how Joss said he was designing this show -- he wasn't making a show "for the ladies" that guys wouldn't turn of, he was making a show about a character men and women would feel equally invested in without caring about the fact that she's a woman. The man who answered a the question "why do you write such strong women?" with by saying it's because people are still asking that question isn't coming at this show with a "female escapism gets in free, male escapism pays $5 at the door" attitude.
I would hardly describe the portrayal of Buffy's relationship with Spike (or Angel) as "escapism". The idea that BtVS is a rosy fulfillment of female romantic fantasies is funny.

What I'm saying is that I'd much rather have a show with a female protagonist actually be from a female POV, rather than from a male. (Although it slips into the latter occasionally, it doesn't become a male-POV the way that a lot of the shipper fandom is, and that includes many of the female fans; the whole "which guy deserves Buffy the most"). There's already lots of shows/movies from a male POV - including Whedon's Angel and Dr Horrible, but those have male protagonists, so it makes sense.

davebuffster
04-04-12, 04:23 PM
Personally, no-one else could have played Buffy as well as SMG and MM done such a fantastic job playing Harmony, who else could have played her? I can't imagine anyone else playing either role. :)

Edit: Aside Eliza Dhusku, who did actually play Buffy briefly maybe......

Iwantthefireback
22-04-12, 07:47 PM
I don't think anyone could have been a better Buffy than SMG, and it would be hard to imagine anyone, especial Mercedes playing the role.

I thought Mercedes was perfect for Harmony, and I completely disagree that she would been a "hotter slayer". SMG is an extremely attractive woman, and a brilliant actress.

I think the character of Harmony was hilarious, and Mercedes McNab pulled it off extremely well. :)

WhiteHat
25-04-12, 09:38 AM
I think the character of Harmony was hilarious, and Mercedes McNab pulled it off extremely well. :)

I totally concur. :)
I always thought that Harmony and Cordy should have gotten their own spin-off. What trouble they would have gotten themselves into! :roll:

MikeB
04-06-12, 05:13 AM
All caught up


For the thread topic, I’m starting to re-watch Battlestar Galatica , and I’m wondering how BtVS would be if someone with Tricia Helfer’s build and looks was playing Buffy. Certainly, Tricia had the acting chops – not saying she would play the role – so, acting-wise someone else could have possibly played Buffy very well.



KingofCretins


My quote: Viewers. And that’s true. The audience wanted Buffy with Angel or with Spike. There weren’t a lot of viewers who wanted her to get with some human or someone who wasn’t Angel or Spike.

You have no empirical data to support this. I don't think "shippers" make up, cumulatively, even half of the total viewership. What do you mean by “shippers”? And I’m curious: Do you think that Buffy/Riley was popular? Do you think that the audience wanted Buffy with Xander and didn’t want her with Angel or Spike? And it’s simply unreasonable – to put it extremely nicely – to consider that less than half the audience wanted her with Angel or Spike.


I think most people that just tune in for a show don't care enough to talk about it online and don't look at the series as existing for the benefit of any one specific romance. Again, I’m not referring to the online community. I wasn’t part of the online community until 2005.

______________________________________________


I think the point was "good girl reforms bad guy" is an asinine substitute when one's argument is that "dork gets the girl" is too much of a cliché That wasn’t my argument: my argument is that Buffy/Xander wouldn’t have made sense.



Lyri


My quote: I don’t know anyone who found Ryan Reynolds more attractive than David Boreanaz.

I do. I find Ryan Reynolds to be vastly superior to David Boreanaz in every way possible - looks, personality, acting chops - and I have done since the first time I saw him as Berg in Two Guys and a Girl.

Sweeping generalizations don't work when it comes to attraction and physical appearance. I am referring to when BtVS was airing. And I didn’t make a “sweeping generalization”: I said that “I don’t know anyone who found Ryan Reynolds more attractive than David Boreanaz.”

Also, I assume that personality and otherwise, Ryan Reynolds would be the Xander that Nicholas Brendan was playing and that Buffy would still be attracted to Angel and get with Angel instead of getting with Xander.



Jack Shaftoe


Do I even need to explain the vast difference between "there weren't a lot of viewers who didn't want [something]" and "pretty much 100 percent of viewers wanted [something]"? No, but it’s pretty much the same thing whether it was over 90% or over 99%.


Or the difference between fans who care about the show enough to post on forums and those who just watch it, maybe not even every episode? If one didn’t watch every episode, one got lost. Most BtVS viewers watched every episode even if that meant that they had to videotape it or otherwise record it.


And in any event, pandering to the most vocal shipping factions isn't something a showrunner should be proud of, especially if the guy in question just can't shut up about how he doesn't give people what they want but follows his own vision. There was Buffy/Spike stuff in “School Hard” (2.03). In “Becoming Part II” (2.22), upon meeting them, Joyce could have assumed that Spike was Buffy’s new boyfriend. And with Angel dead and getting his own series, it was speculated that Buffy would be getting with Spike in Season 3. I consider that Joss Whedon had at least mused about Buffy/Spike in “School Hard” (2.03) and since and that he had always intended to eventually get them together.


My quote: Xander getting with Buffy would simply be the dork getting the hot chick. Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike are far more interesting than that.

Yes, the good girl reforming the bad boy is such an incredibly original story, right? It’s beyond simplistic to refer to Angel and Spike as simply “bad boys”. Why would Buffy have gotten with Xander other than he’s a guy who wants her?

________________________________________________


My quote: but after “School Hard” (2.03) aired, Spike was already the most popular character in the show..

Yeah, I am sure that after one episode Spike was more popular than even Buffy. You don’t seem to know the demographics for the audience. Angel was very popular and a lot were watching for Angel. Some watched for Cordelia as they didn’t find SMG hot. Willow was popular. Some really liked Giles. In terms of the fervency of their popularity, Spike was the most popular. There’s a reason why Joss had to take James aside and tell him that Spike/James wasn’t going to be taking over the show.


Allow me to doubt that he was even your favourite character at that point, let alone the favourite of most viewers. It’s possible that he wasn’t in “School Hard” (2.03), but at some point in Season 2, he was. Before Angelus showed up, Spike and Spike/Dru was credited with increasing the ratings for BtVS.

Jack Shaftoe
04-06-12, 05:48 AM
There was Buffy/Spike stuff in “School Hard” (2.03). In “Becoming Part II” (2.22), upon meeting them, Joyce could have assumed that Spike was Buffy’s new boyfriend. And with Angel dead and getting his own series, it was speculated that Buffy would be getting with Spike in Season 3.

How on earth do you know that if you weren't a part of the online community until 2005? It was speculated? By whom? You and your friends? Random journalists? Inquisitive minds want to know.


No, but it’s pretty much the same thing whether it was over 90% or over 99%.

So now "there weren't a lot" became "over 90%"? And no, it's not pretty much the same thing at al. Try going to a random internet forum and post something along the lines of "Well, pretty much 100% of people are heterosexual/religious/love Hollywood movies/hate Twilight" and see how that goes.


There was Buffy/Spike stuff in “School Hard” (2.03).

Only if by Buffy/Spike stuff you mean them interacting on screen. By the same token there was "Willow/Buffy stuff" in Welcome to The Hellmouth. But feel free to explain how trying to kill each other constitutes set up for eventually hooking up, I am all ears.


I consider that Joss Whedon had at least mused about Buffy/Spike in “School Hard” (2.03) and since and that he had always intended to eventually get them together.

And I consider many things, that doesn't make them true. How does your consideration works with Joss saying he intended to kill offf Spike in S2?


It’s beyond simplistic to refer to Angel and Spike as simply “bad boys”.

It's equally simplistic to describe Xander as "the dork". I was merely parodying your "proof".


Why would Buffy have gotten with Xander other than he’s a guy who wants her?

Because the plot would have said so. Why did she hook up with Angel? Don't tell me there was some clear and rational reason.
On a not so meta level - why did Cordelia, who had been portrayed up to this point as far more snotty and status oriented than Buffy, hook up with Xander? Funny how you rant against the tired clichés when you don't like them but then say "well, the audience wanted that!" when you happen to like them. Buffy hooking up with either Angel or Xander would have been surprising to very few viewers. I can't say I like either ship but let's not pretend one was written in the stars and the other made no sense whatsoever.


You don’t seem to know the demographics for the audience.

Please explain what kind of audience would already like a character after his first episode more than the lead character? This simply does not happen unless the lead is very unpopular to begin with. And even if this somehow happened with Spike you have no way of knowing it. I can claim that Balthazar was more popular than Buffy right after Bad Girls aired - which is complete nonsense, mind you, but I would have just as much proof as you have for your Spike claim, which is to say none whatsoever.

Lyri
04-06-12, 07:56 PM
Lyri

I am referring to when BtVS was airing. And I didn’t make a “sweeping generalization”: I said that “I don’t know anyone who found Ryan Reynolds more attractive than David Boreanaz.”





I don't what the difference is because you were referring only to when BtVS was airing. Why would it matter as to what the time period was? I've been watching BtVS since the first episode aired back in 1997. Even back then, I didn't find DB to be even remotely attractive. Two Guys and a Girl started airing in 1998, and Ryan Reynolds was instantly attractive to me, and still is now.

You say that you 'don't know anyone who found Ryan Reynolds more attractive' which suggests that you don't think it's possible. I've just told you that it is in fact possible.


Also, I assume that personality and otherwise, Ryan Reynolds would be the Xander that Nicholas Brendan was playing and that Buffy would still be attracted to Angel and get with Angel instead of getting with Xander.

Huh? I wasn't referring to their on-screen character personalities. I was referring to the personas they present as themselves in interviews and other things.

Also, you can't know how the writing and characterization would have worked out had Xander and Angel been played by different people. Spike/James Marsters proves beyond question that the writing and ideas for the characters changes depending on the actor and what they bring to the part.

MikeB
04-07-12, 07:10 AM
I’ll post on Buffy/Spike when I finally get around to reading through the Buffy/Spike thread. This thread has gotten a little off-topic, so I’m going to limit my post to discussions about casting choices. I did however read through all the posts.




Lyri


You say that you 'don't know anyone who found Ryan Reynolds more attractive [than David Boreanaz]' which suggests that you don't think it's possible. Well, sorry for the confusion. That wasn’t my intention. My point was that Buffy wouldn’t likely find Xander more attractive than Angel even if Xander was played by Ryan Reynolds instead of being played by Nicholas Brendan.


My quote: Also, I assume that personality and otherwise, Ryan Reynolds would be the Xander that Nicholas Brendan was playing and that Buffy would still be attracted to Angel and get with Angel instead of getting with Xander.

Huh? I wasn't referring to their on-screen character personalities. I was referring to the personas they present as themselves in interviews and other things. Now, I’m confused. What are you suggesting? That Ryan Reynolds would be a sex symbol or something? It’s not as if Nicholas Brendan isn’t a good-looking guy.


Also, you can't know how the writing and characterization would have worked out had Xander and Angel been played by different people. The argument is based on David Boreanaz playing Angel. And how do you think Xander’s characterization would have been played had he been played by Ryan Reynolds?


Spike/James Marsters proves beyond question that the writing and ideas for the characters changes depending on the actor and what they bring to the part. So does Sarah Michelle Gellar and Alyson Hannigan. In terms of looks and whatnot, Ryan Reynolds isn’t beyond Nicholas Brendan to the point that Xander would be a different character. And Nic Brendan is a good actor on the show and so acting-wise, it’s not a certainty that Xander would have been a different character.

Lyri
04-07-12, 05:09 PM
Either you just don't get what I'm saying, or your purposefully choosing to misunderstand me.






Lyri
My point was that Buffy wouldn’t likely find Xander more attractive than Angel even if Xander was played by Ryan Reynolds instead of being played by Nicholas Brendan.

And you know this...how? Like I said, the character changes - as we know - depending on the actor/actress playing them.

You cannot possibly know how SMG and RR would interact, if they would have more chemistry than SMG and DB or not. IF Xander had been played by RR, we might have seen that he and SMG have more sexual chemistry than SMG and DB, and therefore the writers might have changed how they told their story.


Now, I’m confused. What are you suggesting? That Ryan Reynolds would be a sex symbol or something? It’s not as if Nicholas Brendan isn’t a good-looking guy.


RR IS a sex symbol as far as I'm concerned, and no, I didn't say that NB wasn't a good looking guy. In fact, until Christian Kane showed up in Angel S1, NB was, IMO, the best looking guy in the cast. Please don't put words in my mouth.


The argument is based on David Boreanaz playing Angel. And how do you think Xander’s characterization would have been played had he been played by Ryan Reynolds?

I don't know. My point was, neither do you.


So does Sarah Michelle Gellar and Alyson Hannigan. In terms of looks and whatnot, Ryan Reynolds isn’t beyond Nicholas Brendan to the point that Xander would be a different character. And Nic Brendan is a good actor on the show and so acting-wise, it’s not a certainty that Xander would have been a different character.

Again, we've seen how the writers take and opinion of a character can be changed by the actor playing them and how they interact with the rest of the cast. It's the reason Angel wasn't killed off, and it's the reason the fans took to Spike so quickly

RR's take on Xander would be WILDLY different to how NB played him, and the writers would have taken that into consideration when they were writing for him, the same as they do for every other actor on the show.

MAYBE RR's Xander wouldn't have fit in with the rest of the cast and the writers would have decided to kill him off. MAYBE he would have had more chemistry with SMG than anyone else on the cast and the writers would have decided to pair up Xander and Buffy.

The point I'm trying to make is that we don't know anything for certain and blind, flat declarations of 'Buffy wouldn’t likely find Xander more attractive than Angel even if Xander was played by Ryan Reynolds instead of being played by Nicholas Brendan' are entirely baseless.

Sunshine Superman
05-08-12, 10:49 AM
I've come late to the party I know, but to keep on topic I'll say that I wholeheartedly endorse the casting decisions that were followed through and that we have to live with on reruns and the dvds/videos. I'm glad that SMG and MM got and played the roles that they did. I can't speak for others in this matter but I think that the role of Buffy was absolutely perfect for SMG and if she lives and acts for another 50 years she'll always be the Summers girl for us all.

I'm only seriously spending time wondering what Buffy would be like if Azura Skye had auditioned and had gotten the part, she's the only actress in the oeuvre that (imho) has the cuteness, vulnerability, and hint of power kept in check that SMG demonstrated as the Buffster. Alright, Cassie only appeared in two episodes but one was as herself and the other as the first evil being Cassie and so I feel that I can judge her on those two episodes - 'bout as much screen time as Kendra had, or perhaps a little more, and Bianca Lawson was a Buffy-in-waiting ....


Them's my thoughts, love 'em or loathe 'em. :bounce:

MikeB
16-08-12, 10:36 AM
Lyri

My quote: My point was that Buffy wouldn’t likely find Xander more attractive than Angel even if Xander was played by Ryan Reynolds instead of being played by Nicholas Brendan.

The whole point of having Angel there was to be a love interest for Buffy. Having Ryan Reynolds there wouldn’t have changed that equation unless Joss decided to simply not have Angel in the series or not have him as a serious love interest.


You cannot possibly know how SMG and RR would interact, if they would have more chemistry than SMG and DB or not. IF Xander had been played by RR, we might have seen that he and SMG have more sexual chemistry than SMG and DB, and therefore the writers might have changed how they told their story. That’s a lot of “ifs” and it’s based on baseless speculation. It’s also based on a rather flawed premise because if sexual chemistry were the only defining thing, than Buffy would have gotten with Spike in BtVS S4 and would have never gotten with Riley.

SMG and David Boreanaz displayed perfect chemistry for the whole ‘tortured romance’ thing.


My quote: Now, I’m confused. What are you suggesting? That Ryan Reynolds would be a sex symbol or something? It’s not as if Nicholas Brendan isn’t a good-looking guy.

RR IS a sex symbol as far as I'm concerned, I’m discussing BtVS S1 and BtVS S2 not whatever status Ryan currently has. And by the way, even David Boreanaz only had ‘heartthrob status’. Only SMG, Eliza Dushku, and James Marsters of the Buffyverse had ‘sex symbol’ status.


I didn't say that NB wasn't a good looking guy. [….] Please don't put words in my mouth. The whole premise is based on Ryan Reynolds being cast instead of Nicholas Brendan that Buffy would have been with Xander instead of Angel. So that means that you find Ryan better looking than Nic and perhaps that you consider that Ryan would have had better sexual chemistry with Sarah than Nic had with Sarah.


My quote: The argument is based on David Boreanaz playing Angel. And how do you think Xander’s characterization would have been played had he been played by Ryan Reynolds?

I don't know. My point was, neither do you. What is your point? That the only reason that Buffy got with Angel instead of Xander is because David is better looking than Nic and SMG had more chemistry with David than she had with Nic?

Otherwise, one might as well say that if Leo DiCaprio or whoever was cast as Xander that Xander would be with Buffy. It’s all baseless speculation.


My quote: So does Sarah Michelle Gellar and Alyson Hannigan. In terms of looks and whatnot, Ryan Reynolds isn’t beyond Nicholas Brendan to the point that Xander would be a different character. And Nic Brendan is a good actor on the show and so acting-wise, it’s not a certainty that Xander would have been a different character.

Again, we've seen how the writers take and opinion of a character can be changed by the actor playing them and how they interact with the rest of the cast. It's the reason Angel wasn't killed off, and it's the reason the fans took to Spike so quickly Within certain parameters. Buffy was made smarter, Willow was made sexier, and that’s about it. They would never have fundamentally changed the character of Xander to the point that Xander would be someone cooler and more desirable than someone like Angel.


RR's take on Xander would be WILDLY different to how NB played him, Ryan would have been directed. While SMG helped ‘create’ Buffy and while James helped make Spike ‘good before he was good’, the characters are who they are supposed to be. Nic didn’t make Xander a different character than he otherwise would have been (he was cast as Buffy’s love interest) and this is true for the other actors as well. Heck, Alyson Hannigan got a cover of FHM and got onto Hot 100 lists and yet Whedon and Co. never portrayed Willow as super hot or super sexy or super desirable.


The point I'm trying to make is that we don't know anything for certain and blind, flat declarations of 'Buffy wouldn’t likely find Xander more attractive than Angel even if Xander was played by Ryan Reynolds instead of being played by Nicholas Brendan' are entirely baseless. It’s not because Joss got Buffy with Angel. Nicholas Brendan was cast to be Buffy’s boyfriend. My point is that if Angel were still on the show that Buffy would have gotten with Angel instead of getting with Xander. I didn’t say that had Ryan been cast that Buffy still would have never gotten with Xander.



Sunshine Superman


I'm only seriously spending time wondering what Buffy would be like if Azura Skye had auditioned and had gotten the part, she's the only actress in the oeuvre that (imho) has the cuteness, vulnerability, and hint of power kept in check that SMG demonstrated as the Buffster. Did Cassie have any martial arts training? Azura isn’t as attractive as SMG and the success of the show has a large part to due with the chemistry being Buffy and Angel and Buffy and Spike.

Lyri
16-08-12, 06:55 PM
I honestly give up.

You've admitted - on more than one occasion - that David Boreanaz and James Marsters' interpretations of Angel and Spike respectively caused the writers to rethink their plan for them, but you're unwilling to admit that someone else playing Xander could have caused them to do the same thing for his character.

I'm done with this discussion.

MikeB
09-09-12, 11:21 PM
You've admitted - on more than one occasion - that David Boreanaz and James Marsters' interpretations of Angel and Spike respectively caused the writers to rethink their plan for them, but you're unwilling to admit that someone else playing Xander could have caused them to do the same thing for his character.

I'm done with this discussion. You are saying something like that if Ryan Reynolds was cast as Xander, that Buffy would have been with Xander instead of Angel. I'm saying that that is baseless speculation, point out that Xander was originally going to be Buffy's boyfriend, and that the point of Angel was to be Buffy's boyfriend.

I didn't even mention that Nicholas Brendan was cast instead of Ryan Reynolds; so, if anything, Nicholas Brendan was deemed the better and/or more appropriate actor to play Xander and was probably deemed to have better chemistry with SMG than Ryan Reynolds had.

Lyri
12-09-12, 09:17 PM
You are saying something like that if Ryan Reynolds was cast as Xander, that Buffy would have been with Xander instead of Angel.

No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying there is a possibility that it MIGHT have happened. Again, I repeat, the characters change depending on the actor playing them. See for example Ruby in Supernatural. She was a WILDLY different character when she was played by Genevieve Padalecki than she was when she was played by Katie Cassidy, and the writers played off of her chemistry with her then future-husband, Jared Padalecki. The chemistry between Jared and Katie was nowhere near the levels it was/is between Jared and Genevieve and the character was possibly therefore written slightly differently to incorporate that more.

It seems to me that your dislike of Xander is coloring your comments on this issue.


I'm saying that that is baseless speculation

And I'm saying that this is a thread that is based on the SPECULATION of whether or not Mercedes McNab would have been a better Buffy than SMG.

And it's not baseless.


I didn't even mention that Nicholas Brendan was cast instead of Ryan Reynolds; so, if anything, Nicholas Brendan was deemed the better and/or more appropriate actor to play Xander and was probably deemed to have better chemistry with SMG than Ryan Reynolds had.

We don't know the reasons why RR didn't end up with the role. All we know was that he was up for it. Maybe he turned it down. You declaring that NB was deemed better than him or had better chemistry with SMG is...oh, there's that word again, speculation.

MikeB
10-10-12, 04:47 AM
Lyri

Again, you seem to be ignoring that Nicholas Brendan was cast instead of Ryan Reynolds. So, Joss and Co. found Nicholas’ chemistry with SMG to be better than Ryan Reynolds’ chemistry with her.

Also, you seem to be ignoring that Xander was originally going to be Buffy’s boyfriend and that Nic was cast for that. Angel was created later on by David Greenwalt. And it was SMG’s chemistry with David that made Angel last through the Season.


Again, I repeat, the characters change depending on the actor playing them. See for example Ruby in Supernatural. She was a WILDLY different character when she was played by Genevieve Padalecki than she was when she was played by Katie Cassidy, and the writers played off of her chemistry with her then future-husband, Jared Padalecki. The chemistry between Jared and Katie was nowhere near the levels it was/is between Jared and Genevieve and the character was possibly therefore written slightly differently to incorporate that more. This is about completely irrelevant given the situations are nothing alike.


It seems to me that your dislike of Xander is coloring your comments on this issue. Such arguments have been beyond boring for many months. Would it be alright if I say that your regard for Xander is coloring your comments?


And I'm saying that this is a thread that is based on the SPECULATION of whether or not Mercedes McNab would have been a better Buffy than SMG. It’s not speculation. We’ve seen the chemistry between David Boreanaz and Mercedes McNab. We’ve seen the chemistry between James Marsters and Mercedes McNab. I haven’t come across someone who finds Mercedes more attractive than SMG. Mercedes McNab didn’t have fighting skills and SMG had a Brow Belt in Tae Kwon Do.

And the same is true regarding Nicholas Brendan vs. Ryan Reynolds. Sarah Michelle Gellar was cast as Cordelia Chase and then the WB wanted her tried out for Buffy and she was eventually cast as Buffy. Nic was cast instead of Ryan. And the casting people were right on both accounts.


My quote: I didn't even mention that Nicholas Brendan was cast instead of Ryan Reynolds; so, if anything, Nicholas Brendan was deemed the better and/or more appropriate actor to play Xander and was probably deemed to have better chemistry with SMG than Ryan Reynolds had.

We don't know the reasons why RR didn't end up with the role. All we know was that he was up for it. Maybe he turned it down. He was auditioning for something that he was going to reject? That makes no sense.

Jack Shaftoe
10-10-12, 09:13 PM
I haven’t come across someone who finds Mercedes more attractive than SMG.

Oh, really? Try reading the first post in this thread then.

pfr_77
12-10-12, 02:27 PM
if you don't think SMG was a ~hottie slaya~ you need to go back and start from the beginning bud

As for the topic's inquiries, though, I'm not really sure. I think Mercedes's portrayal of Harmony is closer to the vision of Buffy but I don't know how she would have played out in the long run. I don't have much knowledge of her abilities as I haven't seen her in anything else but I doubt anyone else could have pulled Buffy off the way SMG did. Also, when I consider the fact that Buffy in the show was already somewhat seasoned, it throws my whole reasoning askew and I am far too sleep-deprived to muster up a new line of thought or really develop this one any further.

pfr_77
12-10-12, 02:32 PM
A lot of the actresses auditioned for the role of Buffy. Julie Benz (Darla), Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia), Mercedes Mcnab (Harmony), Julia Lee (Chanterelle/Anne) and Elizabeth Anne Allen (Amy) all auditioned for the part. Sarah Michelle Gellar actually originally auditioned for the role of Cordelia (as did Bianca Lawson who played Kendra) but they felt she was better suited for Buffy.

Quite a few famous actresses also went for the part. Kirstin Dunst, Selmar Blair and Katie Holmes auditioned for Buffy and Ryan Reynolds auditioned for Xander. In fact, he was actually offered the role but for some reason had to turn it down.

oh my god my head

Faye
13-10-12, 12:09 AM
Well, I can't picture Mercedes as Buffy.. Probably it's because SMG was Buffy for 7 years and after such a long time there's just no one I could think of who would have made a better Buffy. And I'm not really sure if Mercedes would have played Buffy as good as SMG, though I can't judge her acting abilities 'cause I've never seen her playing another role than Harmony. And Harmony was a pretty annoying character to me. :P So I guess we'll never know..

But it's pretty interesting that Ryan Reynolds auditioned for Xander haha :D Didn't know that.. but I can't picture him as Xander.

MikeB
13-11-12, 02:52 AM
All caught up



pfr_77


I think Mercedes's portrayal of Harmony is closer to the vision of Buffy If this were true, Mercedes McNab would have been hired instead of Sarah Michelle Gellar.

GoSpuffy
14-01-18, 08:17 AM
SMG was the perfect Buffy. I think she was a much better actress than Mercedes McNab but that said I love Harmony and think she is a very under rated character. Ryan would have made an excellent Xander, I would have loved to have seen that.

Priceless
14-01-18, 08:58 AM
I'm sure Mercedes McNab would have been pretty good as Buffy, but she was so brilliant as Harmony that I wouldn't want to change that. I also think SMG brought a strength to the role of Buffy that I'm not sure Mercedes could have done. SMG is Buffy to me and it's hard to think of anyone else in that role.