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Sosa lola
21-11-11, 02:39 PM
After reading Gabrielleabelle's Unpopular Opinions (http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/348007.html) I decided I'm gonna list the unpopular opinions I agree with - not all of them, 'cause they're a lot. I'd also like to hear your unpopular opinions:

Unpopular Opinions I Agree With:

1) I think Buffy didn't think about Spike much at all prior to Crush. He just usually didn't cross her mind. Hence her puzzled, "Huh?" when Dawn tells her that Spike's in love with her.

2) Harmony being annoying in no way makes Spike's behavior to her OK.

3) Riley wasn't threatened by Buffy's strength, whether that means her physical strength or her strength of character. He admired her for it. (Although admittedly he had some preconceived notions of how male-female interaction was supposed to work, which led him astray occasionally - but only temporarily. It wasn't the reason they broke up.)

4) I have no problem with Angel attacking Wes in the hospital after Holtz took Connor. Was it wrong and should he have been stopped? Most definitely. But I can completely understand why a heartbroken parent would react that way against the person who lost him his child, and I don't hold it against Angel.

5) I thought Xander's last line about Anya "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing" to be filled with pride and love, totally endeering and perfect. I really wish it was his last line in the show.

6) I don't think the Core Four was unfairly cliquey or exclusionary to anyone. I thought they were fair to outright generous and welcoming considering their respective circumstances to Cordelia/Oz/Anya/Angel/Riley/Spike/Dawn/Tara/Andrew/Jonathan.

The only characters that really have a leg to stand on to complain about the Core Four excluding them or not treating them with the respect that they deserve was S3 Wesley and post-Innocence Jenny. And Faith had a legitimate complaint on Giles not engaging her enough.

7) I honestly don't find any of the main-cast characters on BtVS (and to a lesser extent AtS) ever unforgivable, you know? I always understand where they are coming from, and most of their actions seem a believable mixture of selfish, selfless, insight and delusion. I always feel a bit wishy washy as a result, but when I get into a character's POV it's really easy to understand why they do what they do. Same goes for most of the recurrings.

8) Anya's trying to kill Xander -- and, more importantly, trying to get *his friends*, including multiply traumatized *Dawn*, to wish him a horrible end -- is incredibly terrible and pretty heavy evidence she hadn't actually learned the value of human life or become a moral thinker. I sympathize with her while she does it, because she's hurt and retreating to an old set of ethics in which all men are evil and punishable, but it's in no way close to okay.

9) At least into season four, Buffy still thinks of herself as somewhat cooler than Xander and Willow, and I don't think she outgrows that particular privilege for a long while (if ever). c.f. Homecoming, which only works if Buffy believes on some level that she *could* become the most popular kid in school.

She does have an inferiority complex and thinks she's worse than her friends in some ways -- but there is a sense of superiority which is not all about slaying

10) I think Joyce was a very flawed parent in many ways, but I think she was in a difficult situation and tried very hard: following a divorce, she left her whole life behind after her daughter burned down a school gym apparently for no reason. Her daughter continued to get in trouble, and over the first three years in Sunnydale, despite a thriving career she dated exactly once (and he turned out to be a killer) and made one friend (who became a zombie who needed to be put down by her daughter). The only other thing even remotely close to a human connection she had was Giles. She dealt badly with Buffy's coming out as a slayer, and took her anger at herself out on Buffy when she returned. But even as she resents the fact that her daughter's life expectancy is being cut in half, she began to be supportive of Buffy's slayer life -- going as far as to recognize, even more than Buffy did, the loneliness that her comrade in arms Faith would feel, and the connection the two could have. When Buffy left for college, she never pressured her to spend time with her. She makes a lot of very bad decisions, and I think she subconsciously holds Buffy as being partly reponsible for the total collapse of her social sphere, both before moving to Sunnydale and once *in* Sunnydale (which was really more the result of the Hellmouth than Buffy); but considering the pressure she was under I have a lot of sympathy for her.

gregor
21-11-11, 03:35 PM
Good thread! I'll add a few.

1) Unpopular with my fellow Spuffies: Although I thought it was simplistic and over-wrought much of the time, I kind of liked Buffy/Angel before he left for his spin-off and before Buffy had much interaction with Spike. I think it's because SMG did such a good job of selling the emotions.

2) I don't think Willow is gay. She's bi. Her emotions for Xander and Oz were too intense to have been not real.

3) I came to actually like Dawn in Season 7. (Until Empty Places, but no one made it out of that episode unscathed.) And I liked Buffy better with Dawn than without her, because she was much more mature the instant Dawn was in the picture. It was good for her character to have a little sister to worry about.

4) Although I hated Riley with Buffy, I thought Riley was really funny. He had some very good lines.

5) While there was a lot about the relationship between Spike and Buffy that was emotionally unhealthy in Season 6, I don't think the BDSM aspect of it was unhealthy at all, and I don't think it was an entirely negative relationship for either of them. I think that relationship helped Buffy cope and recover from the trauma she experienced. If Riley had not caught them in bed, who knows where it would have gone?

Sosa lola
21-11-11, 04:02 PM
3) I came to actually like Dawn in Season 7. (Until Empty Places, but no one made it out of that episode unscathed.) And I liked Buffy better with Dawn than without her, because she was much more mature the instant Dawn was in the picture. It was good for her character to have a little sister to worry about.


This is so true. I discovered that I enjoy Buffy more after Dawn came to the picture, I like the mature woman she became around Dawn. I love their relationship and think it added more to Buffy's character.

Nina
21-11-11, 05:22 PM
UO threads remain my favorite threads, great to have a new one. :2party:


Some of mine;

-Innocence is the best Ats/BtVS episode Whedon wrote and it's also the best BtVS episode. I'm not a big fan of fanfavorites like The Body, The Gift or OMWF.

-The Girl in Question is the worst episode that ever graced my screen, even episodes like 'She', 'Teacher's Pet' and those terrible season 7 episodes can't beat TGIQ.

-I like the most of the MOTW BtVS episodes in the early seasons.

-Actually I don't like OMWF at all.

-Darla/Angel is my favorite ship.

-Buffy is my favorite BtVS character and Angel is my favorite Ats character, and I believe both should never visit the other show because clearly the writers can't help but piss on the visiting title character. Ats is rarely IC or interesting on BtVS and Buffy is a nightmare on Ats (even when she is not there).

-I'm not a big fan of Dawn or Connor being inserted in the series, not because I'm against either character and not because I dislike the idea of Angel and Buffy as parents (especially in Angel's case), but I feel like the writers dealed with it rather badly. Both Dawn and Connor never became real characters, they are still plotdevices. After their big arcs both kids got sidelined, Connor even got written out and forgotten about in BtVS season 8.

-I really don't like Willow, probably my least favorite non-evil character ever.

-After Greenwalt and Minear left as showrunners (after season 3) I felt that Angel's character got shafted. He had a brilliant character-arc in season 2 and 3, but after that his character only shined in some episodes. And season 8 was nothing but a crime, never I saw a character being destroyed by it's own creator like that.

-Ats and BtVS are equally good as series IMO, just different.

-BtVS season 7 is the worst season in the whole verse, the best is a tie between BtVS season 2, BtVS season 3 and Ats season 2.

-I don't like the amount of bad relations (family, romances or even friendships) in the verse. Happy characters make me happy and fuzzy inside.

-Ats season 5 is a nightmare for everybody who likes (strong) women and thus the wors Ats season.

-I like the Pylea arc, yes it was a bit misplaced but I do enjoy it. Ats was always good when they didn't took themselves seriously.

-I'm a fan of the cheesy voice-overs, especially in Passion and Redefenition.

gregor
21-11-11, 05:41 PM
Nina: I really don't like Willow, probably my least favorite non-evil character ever.

I'm really hot and cold on Willow. I liked her in high school, and I liked her relationship with Tara before she ruined it. There's always an undercurrent with her, though. When other characters challenge Willow on things, she doesn't react well. This goes all the way back to the dreadful I Robot, You Jane, and extends right up to the present in the comics. The things that she said to Buffy when she was Dark Willow are things that she really feels- the resentments were present before she went nuts with power. I think people give her too much of a pass on that because she has the ability to seem more vulnerable than she really is. I still like her, but I think she's got some major character flaws that a lot of people don't see or overlook.

Nina
21-11-11, 09:54 PM
Are you talking about the fandom or the other characters? Because I've the feeling the characters do notice Willow's flaws but don't really care, or they care for only a couple of episodes. I can't come up with one of Willow's missteps which really had big concequences for her. Yes Tara left her after the mindwiping, but she came back. Willow tried to kill Dawn, Buffy, Giles, Andrew, Jonathan... tried to destroy the world, killed Warren and the magic guy, brought back Buffy from the death, mindwiped everybody, brought Dawn in danger etc. And except her believe in herself (which she got back rather quickly) she didn't lose anything after that season because of her actions. Even back in season 3 when she was cheating on Oz with Xander there were no concequences; Oz forgave her and still wanted her.

All the other characters pay a much higher price for their crimes. That in combination with the way AH plays Willow in the last seasons (not that much different from teenage!Willow; cutsey, baby-voice, shy, faux innocent) and the big amount of power the writers gave her (I don't like über powerful characters, limits are your friend! And it's not like she didn't have any advantage before; her intelligence) make me dislike her a lot.

Artea
21-11-11, 10:34 PM
4) I have no problem with Angel attacking Wes in the hospital after Holtz took Connor. Was it wrong and should he have been stopped? Most definitely. But I can completely understand why a heartbroken parent would react that way against the person who lost him his child, and I don't hold it against Angel.It's not as if Wesley intended to lose said child. If he hadn't been stabbed in the back by Justine, I imagine he would have returned Connor once he learned the prophecy was false. Though to be fair, Angel could have easily pushed away those orderlies and continued to suffocate Wesley if he really wanted to.


9) At least into season four, Buffy still thinks of herself as somewhat cooler than Xander and Willow, and I don't think she outgrows that particular privilege for a long while (if ever). c.f. Homecoming, which only works if Buffy believes on some level that she *could* become the most popular kid in school.She may have been more popular (or more aptly: less unpopular), but since the nerds and outcasts are the heroes of the show (at least in the first couple of seasons), more popular doesn't necessarily translate to more cool. Cordelia was popular and she certainly wasn't considered cool amongst the other Scoobies (Buffy included). Facing apocalypses on a regular basis tends to put things in perspective. I can't really recall any instances of this alleged privilege of Buffy rearing its head.


While there was a lot about the relationship between Spike and Buffy that was emotionally unhealthy in Season 6, I don't think the BDSM aspect of it was unhealthy at all, and I don't think it was an entirely negative relationship for either of them. I think that relationship helped Buffy cope and recover from the trauma she experienced. If Riley had not caught them in bed, who knows where it would have gone?Probably to the graveyard, since Spike's demon hatchlings would likely have slaughtered much of Sunnydale's population, had it not been for Riley showing up at the 11th hour. And I don't see why BDSM play would necessarily be something unhealthy. The main problem of that relationship was that Buffy was dating a psychopath who at any moment could flip out on her.


All the other characters pay a much higher price for their crimes.How so? Anya and Spike for example slaughtered thousands for fun and their crimes are played for comedy after they join the Scooby Gang, even while they continued to revel in their evil ways. If anything, season 6 goes to great lengths to bash Willow for the silliest of reasons, like having characters yell at her for using magical party decorations.

gregor
21-11-11, 10:42 PM
Nina: I meant on the show, but it applies to the fandom, too. I absolutely agree that Willow gets much more of a free pass for really bad stuff she's done than anyone else (human) seems to. Also, what's always bothered me is that the things that set Willow off and make her do "bad things" are always personal, and frankly they're things that everyone has to deal with- yet for some reason they make her go completely off the rails. Just a couple examples:

Heartbreak for Buffy because Angel left = Buffy crying and being miserable, but mostly keeping her pain to herself. Comparison: Heartbreak for Willow because Oz left = Willow taking up drinking, being nasty to Xander and personally attacking him when he's just trying to help, doing a spell that nearly gets everyone killed, and basically flat out refusing to just go through the pain like anyone else in the world would have to do.

Buffy's "true love" Angel dying (and she had to kill him!) = Buffy running off to LA to lick her wounds, but eventually coming home and having to get yelled at by Willow, Xander, Giles, and Joyce for abandoning them. Comparison: Willow's true love Tara dying = Willow first trying to resurrect her, even after supposedly learning her lesson because of what happened to Buffy, then going completely evil, trying to kill all of her friends, and finally trying to END THE WORLD because of her grief.

Yeah, totally there with you on that.

Nina
21-11-11, 10:55 PM
Good observation, I never thought about it like that but you're right.


How so? Anya and Spike for example slaughtered thousands for fun and their crimes are played for comedy after they join the Scooby Gang, even while they continued to revel in their evil ways. If anything, season 6 goes to great lengths to bash Willow for the silliest of reasons, like having characters yell at her for using magical party decorations.


You're right about Anya, but I stopped treating Anya as a normal character years ago. She is one of the most outracious cases of bad writing ever. Willow is supposed to be a well-rounded character while Anya's purpose is to make stupid jokes about sex, men and money. Somebody (with soul!) who murdered innocent people for centuries and who jokes about that is nothing but the most horrible person ever. I don't think we ever met a character who was worse, not even one of the bad guys.

Spike is another case, he was a soulless vampire. I believe that characters should be judged upon their actions as a soulled being. But that doesn't mean they can forget about that past, the soul is the worst punishment you can give a vampire. Spike will b punished every second of his eternal life, because he has to live with his past, just like Angel. Besides they are neither a vampire or a human. Their human friends/lovers/son(!) will age and die. It must be incredibly lonely. So I disagree that Spike got away with 'his crimes'.

And I disagree that characters 'bashed' Willow, they had so much patience with her. She was putting others in mortal danger, removed memories to hide her own mistakes, she was rude and a terrible housemate (did she even pay rent?). And still she was allowed to live in Buffy's house, still she was forgiven by Tara, still she was allowed to be Xander's number 1 at his wedding... that's not bashing at all.

gregor
21-11-11, 11:03 PM
I think it's difficult to argue that Spike didn't suffer. He spends most of Season 7 getting tortured or beaten or burning up. I'm well aware that for some people, there's no amount of suffering that would be deemed adequate for the vampires and demons. Fine. I'm not really intending to compare Willow with non-humans, just with Buffy and Xander. And I STILL feel that Willow gets a free pass compared to the other two.

vampmogs
22-11-11, 12:01 AM
Well, to be fair to Willow there are significant differences when it comes to Tara and Angel's deaths. Tara was an innocent person who was murdered in cold blood so it makes sense that Willow would seek vengeance. Whereas, Angel was hardly innocent and he wasn't murdered either so Buffy reacted differently. When people did threaten Angel's life, such as Faith in S3, Buffy was quite capable of going after revenge too. Though I have to agree that Buffy would never have went as far to then start attacking her family and friends and try and end the world. Willow was far more unstable then Buffy ever was and admitted that she "was never coming back" when she embraced the dark magic again. She knew she was destroying herself and she no longer cared because she saw Tara as her only reason for existing (“the only thing I had going for me were the moments – just moments – when Tara would look at me and I was wonderful. And that will never happen again”).

I agree that the characters were extremely patient with Willow. Buffy showed incredibly loyalty and patience when she allowed Willow to remain in her home after Willow’s behaviour in Tabula Rasa. From Buffy’s perspective, Willow had already caused her so much pain already by tearing her out of heaven and now she hadn’t learnt her lesson at all by trying yet another spell on her to rape her of those memories. The fact Buffy didn’t kick her out or, as far as we know, even lash out at her about it is extremely big of her. Under those circumstances where Buffy was barely keeping herself together it’s a miracle she found it in her at all to show Willow compassion and let it slide.

I’d read some great metas from people on why Willow reacts so badly (and extreme) when things go wrong for her. A great point is that throughout her entire childhood she had no one keeping her in check but herself (her parents were quite neglectful as shown in Gingerbread) and when she got a taste of being bad, as Anya says, she went all “klablooey.” We saw a micro example of this in Faith, Hope & Trick during that amusing scene when Willow is so afraid to walk off school grounds for lunch because it might be a trap set by the teachers and would wreck her perfect record, but when she did she got great satisfaction out of it.

I’ll return later with some of my unpopular opinions. I’m trying to think of new ones I haven’t already said a million times before.

TimeTravellingBunny
22-11-11, 01:04 AM
After reading Gabrielleabelle's Unpopular Opinions (http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/348007.html) I decided I'm gonna list the unpopular opinions I agree with - not all of them, 'cause they're a lot. I'd also like to hear your unpopular opinions:

Unpopular Opinions I Agree With:

Do you intend the thread to be a discussion thread, or just one for listing unpopular opinions and agreeing with those you agree with, like Gabs' thread?

Anyway, I'm just going to do the same as you and quote the unpopular opinions from Gabs's thread I agree with (and my comments on the thread):

Well, first my own:

- Marti Noxon is a great writer.

- Buffy doesn't/didn't love Angel more than she loves Spike.

I gotta quote Menomegirl's comment, since I completely agree "I think she loved them both with equal passion but in a different way. If that makes sense." Yeah, in very different ways, and in very different periods of her life. She wasn't the same kind of person as a teenager and as an adult. (How many people are?)

- The Gift is a great episode and a great season finale, but would have been a terrible series finale.

(as stormwreath put it in his comment: "Yep. To my mind, completely wrong thematically. BtVS is a show about a girl growing up and becoming powerful, not about her sacrificing herself.

Also, according to Campbell the Hero's death has to be followed by their Return, or the myth is incomplete. :)"

- Harmony being annoying in no way makes Spike's behavior to her OK.

- Unpopular opinion for a Spuffy and a Spike fan: the AR scene was in character for both of them and a logical extension of what their relationship was like in season 6.

- Probably unpopular opinion for a Spuffy: I just can't buy the idea of Spike being in love with Buffy in season 2. I believe that there was always a subconscious (mutual) attraction, but Spike in season 2 was as in love with and focused on Drusilla as Buffy was on Angel. That's what drove most of his actions. If he had been in love with Buffy in any shape or form, he wouldn't have walked away in Becoming II with a "eh, whatever not my business" attitude.

- Buffy doesn't really idealize Angel. She idealizes *her relationship with him*. She loves who she was when she was with Angel in seasons 1-3 (while on the other hand, she hated who she was with Spike in season 6), and he reminds her of the time when she had the romantic illusions about love as something pure, simple and everlasting.

But she doesn't actually think that Angel is this amazing, perfect guy. I'm not sure she ever did, but she certainly doesn't since Angel lost his soul in season 2. She always knew deep inside that "Angelus" was Angel (see: Amends, Sanctuary), even though she doesn't want to think about it and tries to disassociate them in her mind.

Case in point: find me 5 complimentary things that Buffy says about Angel as a person in canon, that aren't about his looks. Buffy saying that she loves Angel or saying "It's Angel" meaningfully does not count. I'm not sure I can list as many. I can think of Buffy calling Angel handsome, gorgeous and hot (Welcome to the Hellmouth, Angel, Lessons, After These Messages...) but other than that... She says complimentary things - about him fighting the Three and being a gentleman in S1 Angel, and in Crush she says "Angel was good!" but it's to justify herself to Dawn for having loved a vampire.

On the other hand, I can think of several times when she says something unfavorable about him, even though that tends to happen more often when she's upset with him (as in Sanctuary when she calls him a murderer). As Nina recently reminded me, in Amends, when Buffy is trying to convince Angel not to commit suicide, she can't even tell him that he was ever a good man. She tells him not to commit suicide because in that case all he ever was would be a monster. Not a ringing endorsement of Angel's actions since they met.

- Season 1 isn't bad as people make it out to be. Yes, the show only becomes great in season 2, but still, season 1 was pretty good. Sure, early on there is cheesy music, effects, production values and some of the acting, but the overall quality rises around The Pack. Angel, Nightmares and Out of Mind, Out of Sight are all really good episodes, and Prophecy Girl is the show's first great episode.

Also, Nightmares is as good as Halloween and Fear, Itself.

- I love Hell's Bells. I totally buy Xander's characterization and I empathize with him in it.

- Everyone was in the wrong in Empty Places. Buffy's attitude was really unreasonable and she showed poor leadership skills there; "Do as I say just because I say it!" is not how you make people respect your authority. But Scoobies really shouldn't have reacted the way they did, either, especially Dawn. The only person who I can't really fault was Faith.

- Despite being a Spike fan and a Spuffy, I don't hate Angel, I don't think that he is the bad guy or the source of all badness in the verse. :) In fact, I'm a fan of both Spike and Angel. I definitely prefer Spike, but Angel is my second favorite male character in the verse.

- I quite liked Robin Wood, which is another thing that seems rare for a Spike fan. He had very good reasons to hate Spike (even though obviously I didn't want him to kill Spike). He was also quite charming and sexy.

- I don't think that seasons 1-3 ever portrayed Buffy/Angel as an ideal romance or soulmates (especially not season 2). I enjoy the story because I see it as just a sad, tragic love story about the trauma of first love gone wrong*, but I never thought they seemed that well matched even when I first watched the show and still shipped them.

*For her, it was first love and she was at the time in her life when people still have romantic illusions that there is such a thing as One True Love Forever. For him, he had absolutely nothing in his life for the past 100 years - no friends, no family, no job, no purpose, so he latched onto her and the ideal/fantasy of her and made all his life around her. And then probably remembered her in the hell dimension as the one good thing from his life that he could hold on to her. (Every other memory was either about his human lameness, or soulless evil.)

Everything else, all the stuff about ideal romance and one true love etc. is fanon (and Entertainment Weekly etc.). The show shouldn't really be blamed for it.


- Last year I listed "Season 6 is my favorite season" as an unpopular opinion, but since then I've learned that many people feel the same, so I don't know what level of unpopularity that would be... more like, controversial.

Other people's unpopular opinions that I fully agree with (followed by my comments):

- stormwreath: Buffy's feelings for Angel after Season 4: I think that saying she was "still in love with him" or that she had "completely moved on from him" are both inaccurate.

Most of the time she just doesn't think about him at all. But when she's reminded, or when she meets him again, she's taken back at least temporarily in her mind to a time when life was simple and love was uncomplicated. When she could put her trust in someone and feel passionately about them - without worrying that it would end the world or end in flames and it would all be her fault.

Sensible adult Buffy knows that it's a teen fantasy, and real life doesn't work like that. But sometimes, she likes to escape from her responsibility for a little while. That's why she basks in Angel's presence - but only for a brief time before getting back to business.

I agree with every word of this. Perfectly put.

- Sosa Lola: I thought Xander's last line about Anya "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing" to be filled with pride and love, totally endeering and perfect. I really wish it was his last line in the show.

- samsom: I think Angel's soul made a difference. I don't think it made him two different people, but I do think it made a difference to whether he was worth saving and worth forgiving.
Is this an unpopular opinion? (Or maybe it is since season 8) Anyway, I agree. I mean, he can screw up badly with a soul, but having a conscience and feeling guilt makes all the difference in the world for me.

- gryfindor goddess: I have no problem with Angel attacking Wes in the hospital after Holtz took Connor. Was it wrong and should he have been stopped? Most definitely. But I can completely understand why a heartbroken parent would react that way against the person who lost him his child, and I don't hold it against Angel.
I loved the ending of Forgiving, just like I loved the ending of Reunion. These are the kind of scenes that show why Angel is a great show. On your average show your flawed but good-intentioned protagonist would always do the right thing in those situations, 'cause the show is telling us how we should behave and rise above our emotions. On AtS, they fool you into thinking that it's going to be a moment like that... and then BAM! Angel does the wrong thing even though he knows what he should do, and totally gives into the emotions and instead of acting noble, acts human. (Yeah, I know...)

- spikesjojo:I don't think Buffy was the longest lived slayer as she is often called in fanfic. Nikki Wood had a 4 year old son, and I doubt she got pregnant at 14 or 15 (figure almost another year for pregnancy too). She looked well into her twenties when Spike first started stalking her. Buffy might have eventually become the longest lived slayer - much harder to do after the potentials were awakened - but she was not during BTVS.

- Local Maximum: I honestly don't find any of the main-cast characters on BtVS (and to a lesser extent AtS) ever unforgivable, you know? I always understand where they are coming from, and most of their actions seem a believable mixture of selfish, selfless, insight and delusion. I always feel a bit wishy washy as a result, but when I get into a character's POV it's really easy to understand why they do what they do. Same goes for most of the recurrings.

- Local Maximum: Anya's trying to kill Xander -- and, more importantly, trying to get *his friends*, including multiply traumatized *Dawn*, to wish him a horrible end -- is incredibly terrible and pretty heavy evidence she hadn't actually learned the value of human life or become a moral thinker. I sympathize with her while she does it, because she's hurt and retreating to an old set of ethics in which all men are evil and punishable, but it's in no way close to okay.

- Local Maximum: Buffy didn't love Riley, and Riley -- while he dealt with it very badly -- was basically right in his instinct that Buffy wasn't as into him as he was into her. He shouldn't have left the way he did, but he probably should have left.
Yeah. I always thought she *wanted* to love him more than she actually did, because she thought he was the kind of guy she *should* love. She idealized him as this "solid", nice, "normal", trustworthy guy.

Although I'm always in two minds if I would say that she didn't love him at all... I don't think she's lying when she tells Angel she loves Riley - it's what she wants to believe, that they have this great relationship. But it says something that she never manages to tell Riley that she loves him.

I'm also not sure how the story would work if Buffy did really love Riley. For one thing, that would put *all* the responsibility for the failure of the relationship on Riley (since I don't think Buffy ever treated Riley badly or ignored him) and I never felt we were supposed to think that. More importantly, Buffy's emotional arc throughout the show is far less compelling and doesn't work well if we assume that, after the disaster and trauma that her first love with Angel was, in less than a year she was able to open up and find real love in a healthier relationship. Much of her emotional arc in seasons 5-7 with her insecurities about being able to love and risk the pain loses significance if she had healed as quickly as season 4, and it was all just Riley's fault that he didn't appreciate her love. I think it's significant that in seasons 4-7 she only utters a romantic 'I love you' once and that in the series finale.

- Local Maximum: I relate a lot more to Buffy in s5-7 than Buffy in s1-3 -- except, oddly, for those moments when later battle-hardened Buffy shows up (Becoming, Graduation Day Part 1) or wise, weary Buffy (the end of Earshot).
Me too. I did relate to her in the early season, more than to any of the other characters*, but not to the extent I did since season 5.

*The only exception was season 3. I related to Buffy more in season 2 (and season 1 towards the end) than in season 3. In season 3 the show tried to have a good girl/bad girl thing and it felt like Buffy was being shoved into the good girl box (they even started dressing her more conservatively) and my sympathies naturally went to Faith, not because of any similarity between us (since I'm really not like Faith in background or personality) but because I have a thing for damaged, psychologically screwed-up, morally ambiguous fictional characters.

- sunclouds33: A special Thanksgiving post! Buffy and Willow were kind of insensitive to Xander when he had syphilis but they weren't grossly indifferent or actively negligent in the preservation of Xander's life. They didn't know that killing Hus as quickly as possible would end Xander's syphilis after he already contracted it anymore than it would bring back Father Gabriel or the anthropology professor. Xander had a girlfriend nursing him and one would assume that the doctor that he visited was running tests or trying to figure out a cure.

Willow, for one, was sitting and researching Xander's symptoms once he came in and actually didn't start any of the political debates once Xander came in. Giles and Spike started them once Xander came in. Buffy was always willing to slay Hus but it's difficult to get on that when she doesn't know where he is and doesn't how to track him down yet so why she can't mystery solve and think about how to fight Hus *while* cooking Thanksgiving dinner. She's proven that she can multitask.

Plus, it's hard for me to view Xander's syphilis as imminent death when he's well enough to walk to the Dean's house, bike ride, fight vengeance spirits, etc. all before his syphilis clears up.

- Local Maximum: Willow/Tara is a *very* well-constructed, delicately developed ship. It all points toward the big tragic ending of Seeing Red, with big elements of both real love and real unhealthy codependency in both directions. Making it all one or all the other (all love or all codependency) misses a lot of the point.

- alexeia drae: I think a lot of the times, stuff Buffy gets blamed for results from the fact that she isn't perfect, but people expect her to be since she's a superhero. Like in season 7 when the Scoobies decided to kick her out of her own house. I think she has the right to make mistakes and not be able to save everyone, because bad ass as she is, she not perfect superwoman, nor should she be.

- smells corrupt: I don't think Spike consciously realized he was attracted to Buffy until OoMM. I think he wrote off any previous feelings of attraction as blood lust and the lack of regular sex (once Dru and Harmony had both left him).
Yeah. I think he was totally sincere in his post-spell horror at having kissed the Slayer in Something Blue.

Any more or less sexual remarks and gestures he made pre-OoMM were in the realm of trash-talking (just like the "ride" comment to Nikki).

- gabrielleabelle:I don't have a problem with Buffy casually punching Spike at various points in early to mid S5. She's a Slayer. He's a vampire. Last season, he'd teamed up with Adam. In OOMM he'd tried to get his chip out and kill Buffy (while also leaving Riley to die). Vampires respond to...well...violence. Spike's proven himself to be a continued threat. Buffy has a responsibility as the Slayer to reassert her authority in an effort to keep him from acting up again.

(Why she doesn't just stake him is obviously because of his popular character status, but I don't mind that inconsistency so much cause, ya know, I love Spike)
Yeah, it's like "She is so mean because she's punching him for no reason!" Well, considering that she didn't stake him when there were excellent reasons to do so, he got off very lightly. ;)

Other opinions I agree with at least in part:

- brutti ma buoni: I think Warren is my 'favourite' season villain of all. He was so difficult for Buffy to fight, with so much more grey shading, and so much more to say about evil than 'soulless thing go pouf'.

(NB I don't think you could have had more than one season with a fully human villain though - it's the contrast that makes him great.)

- alexeia drae: Not a big fan of The Bargaining. I thought it dragged on waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.
It had good moments, but yeah, a bit too long and with too much of demon bikers. I was quite disappointed with it at the time.

- smells corrupt: I like seasons 4, 5, 6, and 7 far more than 1, 2, and 3.
Me too. Which doesn't mean I don't love seasons 1, 2 and 3 (especially 2), but I just love the adult seasons more.

- gabrielleabelle: Willow? Totes a lesbian. - stormwreath: Absolutely. :) Though probably a 5 not a 6 on the Kinsey Scale imo.
Yes, I'd say she's a lesbian as in "she prefers sex with women and she's more attracted to women" rather than "she can't ever be attracted to a man and she finds sex with guys ew gross". Just because you had relationships and/or sexual experience with both sexes doesn't necessarily make you bisexual.

- gabrielleabelle: I think Buffy didn't think about Spike much at all prior to Crush. He just usually didn't cross her mind. Hence her puzzled, "Huh?" when Dawn tells her that Spike's in love with her.
This seems to be a minority view for a Spuffy fan, though.
Probably right. It's hard otherwise hard to explain her not staking him in Out of My Mind. She had too many other things on her mind in both season 4 and 5 and just thought of his as this annoying vampire.

- alexeia drae: I think that Buffy's actions in Ted where she pushed him down the stairs were self defense. He was alone in her room, threatening her, and he hit her, and with her instincts I think something was telling her he was stronger than your average man. Really don't see any blame for her there.

- gabriellabelle: I don't think the main impediment to a functional Buffy/Spike relationship in S6 was Buffy's 'denial' of her feelings for Spike. I think there was a whole lot more going in regards to Buffy's depression, her relationship to herself as a Slayer, and Spike's own identity issues.

In short, Buffy and Spike wouldn't have had a super-happy relationship if Buffy just let herself admit to her feelings for Spike. I adore S6!Buffy/Spike cause it isn't that simple.

- blackfrancine: Season 4 actually has a lot of really strong aspects--there's a ton of character development that goes on in really understated ways. And the entire feel of the season does, in fact, imitate the feel of burgeoning adulthood--the feeling that life is going on all around you. The way that you lose touch with your most introspective parts of yourself in favor of trying to join that life that's going on all around.
And then there's the comedy. It's probably the funniest all-around season.
Viva Season 4!
Word. It's the funniest season (and also one that's least dark, and though I love the dark seasons, it's kind of nice to take a break from constant heartbreak). It also has a few really great episodes. It gets a bad rap because of Adam and the Initiative and the lack of chemistry between SMG and MB.

- blackfrancine: More season 4 talk: I like Kathy (Buffy's roomie in the first 2 episodes). If it weren't for the soul sucking Kathy just would've been a too-cheerful, neurotic, but ultimately nice person... er... demon. She only soul-sucked to keep from being taken back. SHE JUST WANTED TO GET AN EDUCATION. She's like a Tara precursor! Crap, I just realized that! She's hiding the fact that she's a demon, going to school away from home, and a domineering father-figure comes to reveal her demon-ness and to take her back.

Poor Kathy.
He, great thought, she does have a lot in common with Tara. Poor Kathy! Although her taste in music was horrible.

Actually, come to think of it, I think she became more likable AFTER her backstory was revealed. Instead of just a roommate with a horrible taste, she is a girl looking for freedom and education and trying to escape an oppressive patriarchal family!

- gabrielleabelle: After being pointed out the subtext, I can kinda see Faith having a thing for Buffy. It's not my preferred reading, but I can see where people are coming from.

But I can't in any way see Buffy as romantically or sexually or in any gay way interested in or curious about Faith. There's just nothing. No looks. No signs of interest. She's totally into Angel at this point. I don't get it.

- flagless piracy: I don't think that Buffy's beating of Spike in Dead Things was the worst thing she ever did to him. It was bad, but - not to sound like a battery-apologist - he was literally asking for it. And I don't think it bothered him all that much.

I also think it's a gross exaggeration to say she left him there to die. It seems to me that he was perfectly able to get up and go home - painfully and slowly, but able nonetheless. Also, I don't think there's anything that indicates that she didn't assist him in some way, as the last shot of her we see is her leaving the station. We don't know where she went next.
I find her behaviour towards him in Entropy (accusing him of spying on her, condescendingly dismissing his feelings) far worse.

I'm not sure about some of the wording about Dead Things, but I definitely agree that it's gross exaggeration to say 'she left him there to die'. I don't know where that even comes from.

And about Entropy. I was so annoyed with Buffy in that scene. (The moments I'm most angry at her or with Spike aren't the violent incidents that people always name: I find it easier to empathize with Spike in the AR scen in Seeing Red than I do in the balcony scene in Dead Things or when he says in Wrecked that he always knew f*cking a Slayer would be even better than killing one... the latter just makes me think, WTF was he thinking there).

- blackfrancine: I love Harmony, and I think she's actually a character that has a lot of significance and a lot that can be explored.

I love how in AtS s5, she finally starts to get her due--the writers finally treat her not as someone who the audience is supposed to disregard and roll their eyes at, but as a person who has feelings and has endured an enormous amount of tragedy with an amazing amount of verve.

Yeah. I like it when the writers are treating her as a real person, rather than a device to make us laugh ("oh look how stupid and annoying she is ha ha!") I mean yeah, she's not too smart and she's shallow and she was a disloyal friend to Cordelia both as a human and a vampire, and she can talk incessantly, but she's got feelings to. She can feel love and compassion (as a soulless vampire!) and be hurt.

I do think that there were moments on BtVS as well when the writers let us that she has feelings that we shouldn't disregard (moments in The Harsh Light of Day, The Initiative, Crush) but it was usually just a moment or two and then they would usually have a joke there so it wouldn't get too serious.

Also, she was the real "Rosencranz and Gildenstern" character in Harm's Way - a supporting minor character that gets to see things from a different POV than the grand heroic stuff. (I can't believe Fury [I think it was him] described The Girl In Question as "Rosencranz and Gildenstern go to Rome". Makes you wonder if he ever actually read/watched it. Dude, Angel and Spike are *anything but* Rosencranz and Gildenstern. Take a look at the freaking credits!)

Jack Shaftoe
22-11-11, 02:41 AM
Nina: I meant on the show, but it applies to the fandom, too. I absolutely agree that Willow gets much more of a free pass for really bad stuff she's done than anyone else (human) seems to. Also, what's always bothered me is that the things that set Willow off and make her do "bad things" are always personal, and frankly they're things that everyone has to deal with- yet for some reason they make her go completely off the rails. Just a couple examples:

Heartbreak for Buffy because Angel left = Buffy crying and being miserable, but mostly keeping her pain to herself. Comparison: Heartbreak for Willow because Oz left = Willow taking up drinking, being nasty to Xander and personally attacking him when he's just trying to help, doing a spell that nearly gets everyone killed, and basically flat out refusing to just go through the pain like anyone else in the world would have to do.

I do think that Willow got an undeserved free pass for her S6 antics but I can't agree about Something Blue. What she did in this episode was in no way, shape or form worse than Giles did in The Dark Age or Helpless or what Xander did in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered or Buffy hiding Angel's return or Tara casting a spell on the gang in Family. They got almost instant forgiveness too. And your description of the events is very misleading:


Willow taking up drinking

You make it sound as if she became an alcoholic. She drank some beer. Once. That was it.


doing a spell that nearly gets everyone killed

Which was a totally unintended consequence of the spell.


basically flat out refusing to just go through the pain like anyone else in the world would have to do

What's wrong with that? If you had a magic pill that would make you feel better, would you not use just because nobody else in the world has such a pill? Why not ban all anti-depressants while you are at it?

vampmogs
22-11-11, 02:48 AM
Here's just a few of mine for now;

- Spike was no more “under Buffy’s wing” or suffocated by her character than Cordy was with Angel. The only reason people find it more noticeable with Spike (and make comments about him being whipped/emasculated) is because they’re not used to seeing a male in this position. I don’t think I’ve ever seen people express that Cordy needed to leave Angel to “become her own woman” like they do about Spike and that’s because there’s nothing unusual about seeing a female character revolve her whole life around the male protagonist. Cordy repeated on numerous occasions that her whole purpose was to be Angel’s link to the Powers, that Angel was the “only one who she cared about” and her “priority”, that she (like Doyle) was willing to sacrifice herself to make sure Angel kept fighting etc. Obviously I’m generalising to a degree, but I do think that this double standard stems from how society ridicules men who defer to women and how people aren’t used to seeing these roles reversed. I find it particularly odd that people claim Buffy stunts Spike’s growth (and I’ve been guilty of this too) when she was the catalyst for his entire development and he changed more in S5-S7 when he was by her side then he ever did before or afterwards.

- The breakdown of the Buffy/Riley relationship was very well-written and one of my favourite things about BtVS S5. I think they both shared some responsibility for why the relationship failed and I never thought either character was meant to look like the bad guy. I'm greatly sympathetic to both characters and am sorry that it never worked out.

- And whilst we're on the subject of Riley; I never had a problem with Riley’s return in As You Were and I really liked his final speech to Buffy.

- Faith was/is subconsciously in love with Buffy. As The First says, she always wanted Buffy to accept and “love” her and you can easily interpret that as romantic love. I definitely think that when she tried to steal Angel away in Enemies it was more about Buffy than it ever was about Angel. I think she is equally as obsessive about Buffy as Spike was about her in those earlier years, but there’s actually plenty more subtext engrained into the Fuffy relationship. I do think it was one-sided and that Buffy never reciprocated those feelings but I totally consider it text that Faith had a thing for Buffy.

- Wesley is a totally unsympathetic character in AtS S3. I’ve tried so, so hard to see the situation from his POV but I just can’t feel badly for him. It was because of his sheer arrogance that things turned out as badly as they did and Angel had every right to hate him. I never really liked his character again after that and, to be perfectly honest, the only time I ever really feel for him ever again is in his death scene in NFA.

- I like all of the crossover episodes with the exception of Orpheus and don't have a problem with how the characters are written at all. For example, I think Buffy acted very understandably in Sanctuary and I don't think her portrayal was unfair to the character at all. Likewise, I can make sense of Angel's characterisation in Chosen and I'm really happy they brought him back before BtVS ended. And the Buffy/Angel scenes in The Yoko Factor are actually some of my favourites between those two characters in the whole verse.

- Buffy’s arc in S7 makes total sense and the writers were brave to write it like they did. No, she wasn’t always as likeable as she used to be but she was under a great deal of pressure and she was beginning to snap. She was sleep deprived, was told by The First slayer that what she was doing wasn’t enough, she had seen a vision of the enormous odds against them, she overheard Giles telling everybody that she was their only plan, she was handed the responsibility of sending young girls to their deaths, she had to face the constant scrutiny and criticism of the Potentials because from the moment they walked through the door she didn’t live up to their expectations, she had to deal with all the infighting within the group, she saw Sunnydale slipping from her grasp as The First gained more and more ground etc. The great thing about her character is that she was never perfect or infallible and under all of those circumstances it makes total sense that the pressure would eventually get to her and that she would start to close herself off (to avoid getting close to the girls she was sending to their deaths) or lash out at those closest to her (like the Wicca-that-Wont’a).

TimeTravellingBunny
22-11-11, 03:11 AM
I've got some more:

- I always find it absurd when people say things like "I really liked Spike but then I started hated him when he tried to rape Buffy" when in fact he's done so much worse in the past and didn't feel guilty at all the time. But they thought he was a cool villain back then.

I think it's because 1) people care less about things that happened off-screen and 2) people care more about things that happen to characters they know and 3) Seeing Red was portrayed realistically and hit too close to home, unlike, say, the (disturbingly) humorous Willow/Spike scene from The Initiative.

The whole "Spike is a rapist!" outcry is silly. Yes, of course he is, and so is Angel, in the past they both raped a lot of people, in addition to murdering a lot of people. What else does anyone think they did? Worst vampires in history, ring a bell?

- The Master is very underrated; he was an excellent villain. He wouldn't have worked as a villain for too long, but for season 1, he worked perfectly. Yes, season 1 was more black and white than the subsequent seasons, and I prefer the more unconventional, complex and relatable villains. However, he wasn't that one-dimensional as people say: he was funny, showed affection for Darla, and most importantly, he had his own set of vampire rules he and his minions believed in, complete with their own tradition and (anti-)religion.

But the main reason why the Master is awesome? Because he's INHUMAN and wants to stay that way. I didn't like him that much the first time I watched the show, because I thought, classic horror movie villain, looks like Nosferatu. But now, when vampires are defined by Twilight and The Vampire Diaries and True Blood, it's the season 1 vampires that seem more radically different from the conventional image of a vampire that people have today. Angel and Spike and Dru and Darla can easily be romanticized that way, because they're good-looking and sexy and have love affairs with each other and/or the humans, when they're not tortured souls in need for redemption. But you can't really do that with the Master, who's an ugly mofo monster disinterested in romance and other human stuff. Now I want to show people season 1 or The Wish and make them understand the quickest way that BtVS is not Twilight.

Dipstick
22-11-11, 03:13 AM
Word to Jack Shaftoe. I don't think that Willow gets anymore of a free pass than Buffy or Xander except for the Dark Willow eps at the end of S6. Plus if we're going to compare Something Blue and Dead Man's Party, I could see why people are quicker to forgive Willow when she unambiguously apologizes, calling her unintended consequences evil, with the provision of cookies and free auto care than Buffy, who despite good intentions, does let things fester in DMP and then fights back out of frustration before really getting to the apology stage ("Wanna talk stupid, Nighthawk?").

My UO? S8 > S6 and S7 combined. Although I follow this franchise in vain hopes of it returning to its S1-4 magic.

Also, Angel definitely raped the dog for me by killing Giles as Twilight but other than that, I actually thought that being Twilight was good for his character. Because I had Major Angel Issues from when he fires his team in S2 on account of Darla right through trying to suffocate Wesley in his hospital bed and becoming Wolfram and Hart's puppet and mind-jobbing his crew, finishing his show with every human who worked for him dead, etc. and having it all coded as Po' Po' Suffering Heroic Angel. By putting the Twilight mask on, Angel took some of the BS mask stuff of his character off and I'm hoping for real growth on his part. (Although, I'll admit that I'm more receptive to seeing Angel deal with this because it was in the comics. If I had watch carnage of girls at Angel's hand and watch him kill *Anthony Stewart Head*, I would probably be too repulsed to watch a series with him. The comics medium really worked for that kind of a story.)

That said, I think that Bangel is dead after the Twilight. I think the Shipper War has been fought and won and if the franchise ends, it will be with Spuffy as the endgame. I get that from story cues and some of Joss's statements. Considering that my most watched/favorite season is S2 and the Seeing Red bathroom scene and the ass ****ing Dead Things scene are both tattooed on my brain, I don't think I can ever be happy with that.

Also, I couldn't more strenuously disagree with Joss that Giles was irrelevant in life and needed to be killed to have an interesting storyline. There could have been plenty of Giles storylines once they started diminishing him in S4. It's just that ME didn't write them.

TimeTravellingBunny
22-11-11, 03:43 AM
Also, I couldn't more strenuously disagree with Joss that Giles was irrelevant in life and needed to be killed to have an interesting storyline. There could have been plenty of Giles storylines once they started diminishing him in S4. It's just that ME didn't write them.
I don't think he said that? I just know that he said that Giles was the character who worked the least in the comics medium, without ASH and what he brought to the character.

Jack Shaftoe
22-11-11, 03:45 AM
I've got some more:

- I always find it absurd when people say things like "I really liked Spike but then I started hated him when he tried to rape Buffy" when in fact he's done so much worse in the past and didn't feel guilty at all the time. But they thought he was a cool villain back then.

I think it's because 1) people care less about things that happened off-screen and 2) people care more about things that happen to characters they know and 3) Seeing Red was portrayed realistically and hit too close to home, unlike, say, the (disturbingly) humorous Willow/Spike scene from The Initiative.

The whole "Spike is a rapist!" outcry is silly. Yes, of course he is, and so is Angel, in the past they both raped a lot of people, in addition to murdering a lot of people. What else does anyone think they did? Worst vampires in history, ring a bell?

So much word. It's bizarre that so many people seem to have no problem whatsoever with Spike's thousands of murders but the attempted rape makes them either renounce Spike or try to prove that it wasn't an attempted rape. It's similar to the idea that Xander leaving Anya at the altar or cheating on Cordelia is worse than his negligence leading to deaths in OMWF or even worse, Anya's millennium of bloody murders. Okay, I get that an attempted rape and being left at the altar might be striking closer to home than murder for many people but still...

Oddly enough, very few people seem to hate Faith mainly for (arguably) trying to rape Xander and (sort of) raping Riley.

I guess my related unpopular opinion is that I care about the off-screen murders. And that's why I have troubles finding Harmony's continued existence acceptable, even if I do find her funny. But "well, the protagonist won't kill this villain because the villain is funny" is the silly meta-justification that a quality show should never use.

Dipstick
22-11-11, 05:07 AM
I don't think he said that? I just know that he said that Giles was the character who worked the least in the comics medium, without ASH and what he brought to the character.

I got it from Jeanty's account of Joss's words.


Jeanty stated that Joss Whedon’s decision to kill Giles in Season 8 was the most difficult plot point for him personally. He loves Giles. When he received the script in which Giles dies, he tried to dissuade Joss. However, he says that the big man told him, “Giles is no longer relevant; if we kill him, he becomes relevant again.”

Dragon Con (http://hellmouthpodcast.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer/georges-jeanty-dragoncon-panel)

UO: I think there's a logical disconnect in the segment of fans that insists that Willow *has* to be a lesbian instead of bisexual because if she says that she's gay that has to respected and strictly adhered to but then insists that she was never addicted to magic, no matter what she says or how she behaved in mid-S6. Either she's to be taken at her word when self-labeling or not.

TimeTravellingBunny
22-11-11, 05:12 AM
I got it from Jeanty's account of Joss's words.
I generally don't put much stock in people's words when filtered through another person's words (and filtered through yet another person's words).

Unpopular opinion related to fandom and comics: People make way too much fuss over the Q&As. They aren't supposed to give away spoilers so I don't why people are always asking questions that can't be answered other tan "Keep reading" or with something rather vague, or over-analyzing the answers to detect if anyone may have accidentally revealed a spoilers. The other pointless questions are those that ask Scott Allie to analyze the characters and relationships (i.e. validate a favorite ship, character or theory), which results in Scott Allie giving his personal opinion, which would be perfectly OK if people didn't treat them as big revelations about the past, present and future of Buffyverse.

Also pointless is asking Jeanty, the artist, to analyze the story and the characters and the mythological aspects, instead of asking him about the art.

Sosa lola
22-11-11, 12:03 PM
Do you intend the thread to be a discussion thread, or just one for listing unpopular opinions and agreeing with those you agree with, like Gabs' thread?

Discussion thread. It's more fun when people disagree. :D

But try to be civil, guys! Discussions are fun when we're being civil.


I’d read some great metas from people on why Willow reacts so badly (and extreme) when things go wrong for her.

I think I've read a meta about that, but I forgot where. Perhaps written by Stormwreath or Local_Max. Do you have a link to them? I'd love to read them.

gregor
22-11-11, 05:00 PM
Maybe we should start that discussion on another thread. I don't want to take over this thread with only one topic, but I have been thinking about this Willow issue a lot.

buffyholic
23-11-11, 11:06 AM
Sorry to be late in the thread, but I wanna share my thoughts on a couple things:

For me, Riley had real problems with Buffy´s strenght. He said he didn´t but he did deep down. We can see that in their conversation in "Out of my Mind".

I agree that Xander´s line about Anya in the last episode is endearing and it seems he is proud of her.

Willow being bi actually makes sense.

Faith
23-11-11, 11:51 AM
1) I think Buffy didn't think about Spike much at all prior to Crush. He just usually didn't cross her mind. Hence her puzzled, "Huh?" when Dawn tells her that Spike's in love with her.

Agree. To make my stance on this more unpopular, I've always had real issues with the emotionally and physically abusive relationship they had. But that's another can of worms. :P[/B]


2) Harmony being annoying in no way makes Spike's behavior to her OK.

Also agree, I can't believe this one's even popular. I think Spike might have Draco Malfoy syndrome - Meaning that generally when it comes to his fans he can do no wrong. Even if it really, really is wrong.


3) Riley wasn't threatened by Buffy's strength, whether that means her physical strength or her strength of character. He admired her for it. (Although admittedly he had some preconceived notions of how male-female interaction was supposed to work, which led him astray occasionally - but only temporarily. It wasn't the reason they broke up.)

He obviously thought her super powers were kick in the beginning, but I think people get the feeling he was threatened by her strength because he had a slow spiral into a lost of health and self control. Add people who he trusted lying to him, Maggie Walsh being a Frankenstein and the Initiative becoming a threat to his friends while he has to sit most of it out? All of the sudden your girlfriend being able to lift God with her bare hands while you watch is likely going to get the better of any man.


4) I have no problem with Angel attacking Wes in the hospital after Holtz took Connor. Was it wrong and should he have been stopped? Most definitely. But I can completely understand why a heartbroken parent would react that way against the person who lost him his child, and I don't hold it against Angel.

I disagree and hold it totally against Angel. He's another Malfoy - he can do no wrong. Unfortunately Angel spends most of his own show being the wrongest man from wrongtown, which was a stroke of genius for Joss as far as I'm concerned. Can I understand it? Yeah, but I can understand someone wanting to stake Harmony just for speaking - it doesn't make it right.


5)I thought Xander's last line about Anya "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing" to be filled with pride and love, totally endeering and perfect. I really wish it was his last line in the show.

I agree! It's also a fun little kick in the sack for Andrew, lol.


6) I don't think the Core Four was unfairly cliquey or exclusionary to anyone. I thought they were fair to outright generous and welcoming considering their respective circumstances to Cordelia/Oz/Anya/Angel/Riley/Spike/Dawn/Tara/Andrew/Jonathan.

The only characters that really have a leg to stand on to complain about the Core Four excluding them or not treating them with the respect that they deserve was S3 Wesley and post-Innocence Jenny. And Faith had a legitimate complaint on Giles not engaging her enough.

I agree some more.


7) I honestly don't find any of the main-cast characters on BtVS (and to a lesser extent AtS) ever unforgivable, you know? I always understand where they are coming from, and most of their actions seem a believable mixture of selfish, selfless, insight and delusion. I always feel a bit wishy washy as a result, but when I get into a character's POV it's really easy to understand why they do what they do. Same goes for most of the recurrings.

Joss has a way of doing that to you, lol.


8) Anya's trying to kill Xander -- and, more importantly, trying to get *his friends*, including multiply traumatized *Dawn*, to wish him a horrible end -- is incredibly terrible and pretty heavy evidence she hadn't actually learned the value of human life or become a moral thinker. I sympathize with her while she does it, because she's hurt and retreating to an old set of ethics in which all men are evil and punishable, but it's in no way close to okay.

Don't know enough about this to comment, by early season 5 I'd stopped watching - I watched a handful of 'important' episodes between Buffy vs. Dracula and s7, then all of s7. I still need to go back at watch.


9) At least into season four, Buffy still thinks of herself as somewhat cooler than Xander and Willow, and I don't think she outgrows that particular privilege for a long while (if ever). c.f. Homecoming, which only works if Buffy believes on some level that she *could* become the most popular kid in school.

She does have an inferiority complex and thinks she's worse than her friends in some ways -- but there is a sense of superiority which is not all about slaying

I don't think she ever loses that sense of superiority, in fact by season 5 it seems magnified to an unreasonable extent. On the other hand, by in-universe conventional standards she IS cooler than them.


10) I think Joyce was a very flawed parent in many ways, but I think she was in a difficult situation and tried very hard: following a divorce, she left her whole life behind after her daughter burned down a school gym apparently for no reason. Her daughter continued to get in trouble, and over the first three years in Sunnydale, despite a thriving career she dated exactly once (and he turned out to be a killer) and made one friend (who became a zombie who needed to be put down by her daughter). The only other thing even remotely close to a human connection she had was Giles. She dealt badly with Buffy's coming out as a slayer, and took her anger at herself out on Buffy when she returned. But even as she resents the fact that her daughter's life expectancy is being cut in half, she began to be supportive of Buffy's slayer life -- going as far as to recognize, even more than Buffy did, the loneliness that her comrade in arms Faith would feel, and the connection the two could have. When Buffy left for college, she never pressured her to spend time with her. She makes a lot of very bad decisions, and I think she subconsciously holds Buffy as being partly reponsible for the total collapse of her social sphere, both before moving to Sunnydale and once *in* Sunnydale (which was really more the result of the Hellmouth than Buffy); but considering the pressure she was under I have a lot of sympathy for her.

Agree, but I don't think Joyce necessarily recognized loneliness in Faith because she was a Slayer. Faith was a stupid kid in a bad place. I think, as a mom, Joyce's heart went out to her.

Nina
23-11-11, 01:15 PM
I guess my unpopular opinion is that I never believed that Angel wanted to kill Wesley in 'Forgiving'. Angel was in the perfect position to kill him; Wesley was powerless and alone. Angel knows how to kill people, he is a massmurderer, so it simply doesn't make sense if he really wanted to kill Wes and failed. He could've broke Wes' neck, he could suffocate Wesley without yelling (so nobody would run in) or he could make sure nobody could get in the room. The chance that two nurses and Gunn can stop him if Angel really doesn't want to be stopped is not very big either. Besides, who stops Angel from coming back if he wants Wesley dead?

So it looks to me more like a man who wanted to unleash his anger at somebody responsible for the 'death' of his son but who made sure he would and could be stopped. And I honestly don't see what so bad about that; yes the perfect person wouldn't have done it but we already know that Angel is a flawed character. And unleashing anger on you former best friend who kidnapped and lost your son to your enemy is natural. At that point Connor was dead or had a horrible childhood thanks to Wes... it was hardly misplaced anger. (Also Wesley never bothered to say sorry to anyone -including Connor-...so I don't feel so bad for him anyway.)

I think calling Angel a Draco Malfoy for this is a bit of a stretch. Draco Malfoy is a racist little snot without a backbone, who is wubbified by Tom Felton fans because Draco is unlovable. He is also the only character with an obvious canon!version and an obvious fanon!version, because the Draco in fanfics and fanon is; misunderstood, handsome and really cool. (Probably the same fans as the ones who think Snape is the perfect man.) Comparing Spike but mostly Angel with him is unfair IMO; there are some group of fans who wubbify and excuse them for everything (or blame Buffy for not loving them enough.) but in general both characters get some well balanced reactions. And especially Angel gets lots of backlash in the show. His negative reactions are often highlighted and he is often punished for it. While JKR ever made the (rather distasteful) comment that Daco Malfoy was too good for Pansy Parinson, so even after attempted murder, being a deatheater, many racist and mean comments and being too scared to do something good or evil, he is too good for Pansy.

Dipstick
23-11-11, 04:18 PM
I guess my unpopular opinion is that I never believed that Angel wanted to kill Wesley in 'Forgiving'. Angel was in the perfect position to kill him; Wesley was powerless and alone. Angel knows how to kill people, he is a massmurderer, so it simply doesn't make sense if he really wanted to kill Wes and failed. He could've broke Wes' neck, he could suffocate Wesley without yelling (so nobody would run in) or he could make sure nobody could get in the room. The chance that two nurses and Gunn can stop him if Angel really doesn't want to be stopped is not very big either. Besides, who stops Angel from coming back if he wants Wesley dead?

I always thought that Angel's attempted murder was poorly executed because it was such a crime of passion. Angel was mad with rage and his emotions were overriding his common sense so he wasn't considering how to best kill Wesley...but it was an attempted murder nonetheless. Just not one that Angel carefully considered, would go through with given time to cool down or with people pulling him off. It was a murderous blind fit of rage- not a teaching moment or Angel making Wesley understand his feeling or whatever.

It bothers me that Angel faced zero consequences from that. I find it unfathomable that Fred and Gunn wouldn't treat Angel differently knowing that their friend is capable of suffocating of suffocating Wesley in his hospital bed.

Sosa lola
23-11-11, 04:43 PM
I seriously don't care much about the vampire core four dynamic (Darla/Angel/Dru/Spike). And I don't care much for the flashbacks. I guess the fact that I don't really care about vampires in general is the reason why. I love Spike and Angel, but not because they're vampires. I guess I'm more interested in slayers than vampires.

zianna
23-11-11, 04:49 PM
Angel wanted to kill Wesley and that was an attempted murder. The only reason that Angel didn't just strangle him or break his neck or why he accidentally forgot how to kill or why he was so easily stopped by the nurses was merely because Wesley had to live and not die. So Angel had to be stopped from killing him and that was the best way they found to stop him and at the same time let us understand that Angel's rage was so huge that he was going for the kill for revenge.

Dipstick
23-11-11, 04:54 PM
I seriously don't care much about the vampire core four dynamic (Darla/Angel/Dru/Spike). And I don't care much for the flashbacks. I guess the fact that I don't really care about vampires in general is the reason why. I love Spike and Angel, but not because they're vampires. I guess I'm more interested in slayers than vampires.

I don't care about the Fanged Four too. I love Dru but I hate Darla from beginning to end and I hate Spike and Angel past BtVS S4/AtS S1 even though I'm fond of their early versions.

Plus, I just fail to see what was so interesting about the Fanged Four before Angel got his soul or more accurately, before Angel met Buffy and started doing something with his soul. Their locales were interesting in a European postcard sort of way and Drusilla is always a source of joy but the Foursome just seemed to make their way through unlife killing people and ruining lives on a *very* long double date. Did they impact history in a dynamic way that grabs my attention? No. Before The Judge, is there any evidence that the Fanged Four made any cool apocalypse plans? No. So, why do I care?

sueworld
23-11-11, 04:58 PM
Err, because imo they were extremely interesting in their own right and even more so when given the opportunity to play off each other. It's a shame that there wasn't more of that in the shows.

Nina
23-11-11, 05:33 PM
I always thought that Angel's attempted murder was poorly executed because it was such a crime of passion. Angel was mad with rage and his emotions were overriding his common sense so he wasn't considering how to best kill Wesley...but it was an attempted murder nonetheless. Just not one that Angel carefully considered, would go through with given time to cool down or with people pulling him off. It was a murderous blind fit of rage- not a teaching moment or Angel making Wesley understand his feeling or whatever.

It bothers me that Angel faced zero consequences from that. I find it unfathomable that Fred and Gunn wouldn't treat Angel differently knowing that their friend is capable of suffocating of suffocating Wesley in his hospital bed.


Angel wanted to kill Wesley and that was an attempted murder. The only reason that Angel didn't just strangle him or break his neck or why he accidentally forgot how to kill or why he was so easily stopped by the nurses was merely because Wesley had to live and not die. So Angel had to be stopped from killing him and that was the best way they found to stop him and at the same time let us understand that Angel's rage was so huge that he was going for the kill for revenge.


I guess this will be a case where we've to agree to disagree, I think him just wanting to rage but not kill him is the better assumption because in that case you don't have to accept the "Oh Angel just forgot how to kill" part. We never had one reason to believe that Angel truly wanted Wes dead at that moment especially since his actions never seems to match his words. And for the most part he was calm enough to kill without yelling, so I don't buy the "he was too over-emotional to think" fanwank either.

And there was a concequence for Angel (and Wesley), they never became true friends again. They moved on and worked together, but they were no longer the best friends they were in the past. About Gunn & Fred not behaving any different towards Angel; typical Buffyverse behavior. When Gunn & Fred killed a man, nobody treated them differently either. Willow got a warm welcome after everything she did in season 6, Xander after OMWF or Revelations... again no different behavior, nobody had issues with Buffy almost killing Faith, Connor's actions in season 4 were forgiven etc. Only when the writers bother to make it a redemption storyline (Faith in Ats season 1, Gunn in season 5, Angel in Ats season 2 and BtVS season 3) the other characters truly care. That plus the fact that Angel's words turned out to be hollow and he never truly tried to off Wesley and of course Wesley's actions; the whole team felt betrayed by him, make me believe that this was one of the better written cases of characters looking the other way when a friend did something bad.

Dipstick
23-11-11, 05:36 PM
I guess this will be a case where we've to agree to disagree, I think him just wanting to rage but not kill him is the better assumption because in that case you don't have to accept the "Oh Angel just forgot how to kill" part. We never had one reason to believe that Angel truly wanted Wes dead at that moment especially since his actions never seems to match his words. And for the most part he was calm enough to kill without yelling, so I don't buy the "he was too over-emotional to think" fanwank either.

I'll respect your "agree to disagree" but I feel so strongly that it was a crime of passion that I don't consider it a fanwank. A person doesn't have to yell for them to be out of their mind with anger. And Angel made the decision to cut Wesley out of his life because of Connor's kidnapping. That's not a consequence to Angel for trying to kill Wesley. Angel suffered no consequences for the attempted murder of his former best friend in his hospital bed and that's just shitty. However, I do think that vengeance killings after a core character has experienced a very personal, awful loss are treated with a lot of sympathy by the authors in the Buffyverse unless your name is Willow Rosenberg and it's the end of S6. That Xander and Buffy forgave her is more an opportunity to highlight Xander's and Buffy's strengths than the writers approving of Willow's actions at the end of S6.

A whopper of an Unpopular Opinion. I'm not mad at Wesley for not apologizing for taking and losing Connor. There's no doubt in my mind that Wesley thought that what happened to Connor was a terrible tragedy and he spent the rest of the series punishing himself for it. Everything that Wesley did, except for the period that Angel mind-jobbed him, was covered with self-hate over what he did along with bitterness at the gang.

I really think that Wesley didn't apologize because "sorry" feels too small for how awful the results were and because the minute that the gang learns what happened, they were lining up to kill him, yell at him and treat him like the worst sort of criminal and it's very difficult to form the words "sorry" in response to that behavior. However, no way did Wesley not apologize because he didn't feel terribly over what happened or regret his actions. Everything that he does past the kidnapping is covered with regret.

KingofCretins
23-11-11, 05:51 PM
I saw a movie where Richard Pryor was so mad that when he went to flick a guy off, he stuck up his ring finger. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to trying to kill Wesley with a pillow instead of more efficient means. I can think of other examples from novels I love and therefore don't want to spoil randomly that make it easy for me to believe that uncontrolled anger can lead to, at best, completely unreasonable and inefficient attempts to kill someone or break something. I could even include DarkWillow on Kingman's Bluff -- the more upset Xander makes her, the more feeble her attempts to fend him off become, down to where she's just a very small Alyson Hannigan beating on his much larger Nick Brendon chest with her fists.

Upshot being, I don't question at all that Angel was trying to kill Wes.

TimeTravellingBunny
23-11-11, 07:37 PM
I love the flashbacks about Fanged Four, individually or together. I was always happy to see another episode with flashbacks.
(Well, except for The Girl In Question - because those flashbacks were utter crap, like everything else in that episode, and didn't fit with any of the other flashbacks).




Plus, I just fail to see what was so interesting about the Fanged Four before Angel got his soul or more accurately, before Angel met Buffy and started doing something with his soul. Their locales were interesting in a European postcard sort of way and Drusilla is always a source of joy but the Foursome just seemed to make their way through unlife killing people and ruining lives on a *very* long double date. Did they impact history in a dynamic way that grabs my attention? No. Before The Judge, is there any evidence that the Fanged Four made any cool apocalypse plans? No. So, why do I care?
This reminds me - I don't know if this is unpopular or not, but vampires and villains in general are so much more interesting and so much creepier when they are killing, raping and torturing ordinary people, then when they are trying to bring an apocalypse. The former is much closer to real life and makes them much more like the real human psychopaths, while the latter is a fictional trope (muhaha supervillains are always trying to end the world!) and has a predictable outcome, because we know that the world is not going to end. It also makes them more removed from reality, since nobody does that in real life. But killing, raping and torturing people - oh yeah, that happens in real life. And we do care about Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy and other serial killers, because in real life we care about individual victims, even though the world isn't ending.


Agree. To make my stance on this more unpopular, I've always had real issues with the emotionally and physically abusive relationship they had. But that's another can of worms. :P[/B]
This, however, has little to do with how much Buffy thought about Spike prior to Crush. These are two completely different matters.


Also agree, I can't believe this one's even popular. I think Spike might have Draco Malfoy syndrome - Meaning that generally when it comes to his fans he can do no wrong. Even if it really, really is wrong.
To some of his fans. Please don't generalize. I'm a big Spike fan and I love the canon Spike, a really interesting and fascinating character, not a fanon Saint Spike the Whitewashed Knight that some people seem to like. And I know for a fact that there are lots of Spike fans who feel the same way I do. Spike is interesting for the very reason that he was really evil and was often still a real arsehole when he was in the gray area... Sometimes even after he turned good (Harmony in S5). But overall he had an amazing journey, and that's the whole point of the character, that he changed, "evolved" as Joss would say.

BTW Sosa Lola was quoting me, I'm the one who wrote that opinion that "Harmony being annoying in no way makes Spike's behavior OK" in the Unpopular Opinions Sanctuary LJ post, and Spike is one of my two favorite characters in Buffyverse.


I disagree and hold it totally against Angel. He's another Malfoy - he can do no wrong. Unfortunately Angel spends most of his own show being the wrongest man from wrongtown, which was a stroke of genius for Joss as far as I'm concerned.
Again, just for a portion of Angel fans who whitewash and idealize him, not for all his fans and certainly not for the fandom in general.


Don't know enough about this to comment, by early season 5 I'd stopped watching - I watched a handful of 'important' episodes between Buffy vs. Dracula and s7, then all of s7. I still need to go back at watch.


I don't think she ever loses that sense of superiority, in fact by season 5 it seems magnified to an unreasonable extent. On the other hand, by in-universe conventional standards she IS cooler than them.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I'm not sure how you can form an opinion on the Buffy/Spike relationship or whether Buffy felt superior in season 5, if you stopped watching regularly at the end of season 4? What were the "important" episodes you watched? (I think that every episode is important, if not for the plot, then certainly for the characterization.)

Here's another opinion of mine:
I believe that Buffy did apologize to Spike for beating him up in Dead Things, possibly right after she got back from the police station. They must have had off-screen conversations (and probably more) between DT and Older and Far Away, whatever that period of time was (obviously it's not the next day from the state of Spike's bruises - it certainly wasn't the next day). I don't see how Buffy would otherwise assume that they're still in a relationship, let alone thinking of 'coming out' to her friends, let alone that the two of them would be joking and flirting.

I figured this one was unpopular because I've seen people state as an unpopular opinion that there's no excuse for Buffy not apologizing to Spike - which suggests that everyone is assuming she didn't.

Dipstick
23-11-11, 08:44 PM
Finance and Buffy

1) I strongly feel that Willow and Tara were paying rent. It's unfathomable that Buffy was supporting herself and Dawn and arguably buying groceries and paying utilities that Willow and Tara used all from shifts at the Doublemeat. Between having parents that seemed affluent and universities better than UC Sunnydale pitching woo at Willow, Willow had to be in a comfortable financial position and I really don't see her rejecting any allowance from her disliked parents or a scholarship-paid dorm room to mooch off of Buffy. I don't know how Tara was paying her expenses but her pride in her newfound independence is such a fundamental part of her character that I don't see Buffy paying her way for any time period as well.

2) With that in mind the only way to logically account for the Potentials using tons of utilities and eating lots of food in Buffy's house, is to assume that the Core Four (as those capable and full of motive to pay) were chipping in. As the only person of means who is generous, I have to believe that Giles was paying a ton to support the mini-army and his name should be on a plaque somewhere.

3) I think that all of the evil-fighters should ideally be paid for their work but I totally get Buffy and the gang's dislike of the whole idea and their collective eye-roll when Anya suggested that Buffy charge for slaying in Flooded. If Buffy has been doing it for free and strongly considers it a calling, it makes total sense why she'd feel insulted at the thought of charging.

Still, I sorta wish that Buffy forced a salary out of the Council of Watchers when she had them by the balls in Checkpoint. If they had the funds to pay watchers, transatlantic popovers for the team, retreats with a good kayak and the ability to force Giles's deportation, there's a lot of cream off the top that Buffy could skim without putting anyone out of business or hurting anyone financially vulnerable.

4). In that vein, it's crucial to the whole series' metaphor that Buffy works ordinary jobs and, graduates to good jobs. At times watching the UPN years I wasn't sure, but we're supposed to root for Buffy to slay and succeed in the civilian's world.

5). Further in that vein, Cordelia should be compensated for all of the wonderful work that she did in LA but I do think that a lot was lost from her character when she gave up her ambitions of acting and then never scaled down to go to college or find some normal job in LA but instead entirely supported herself from Angel Investigations. She really cosigned herself away from succeeding on an ordinary level and that's tragic beyond belief.

6) Again, Faith should have been paid by the Council as a Slayer but I don't think that Joyce/Buffy/Giles/Wesley/other members of the gang failed her by lifting her out of the motel of S3 and forcing her to live with them all middle-class like. Faith had a roof over her head and money to pay for food and copious amounts of leather. She was old enough to legally drop out than she's old enough to make decisions about her life.

kana
24-11-11, 09:20 AM
A lot of these aren't that unpopular but...

-I don't mind characters that many hate, like Warren, Kennedy, Dawn etc, but I dislike characters to whom I'm indifferent, e.g. most of the potentials, Graham.

-I HATE Glory. Ok maybe it's the actress but it felt like she was reading from an autocue.

-For me, I have no preference to the later or earlier seasons. My favourite seasons are 2, 3 and 6.

-I don't ship as such. I enjoyed Bangel, Ruffy and Spuffy as they happened, but I don't think Buffy *belongs* with any of them.

-I liked Connor. I found his arc in Season 4 intriguing, and I find it annoying when people say he was a one note character who simply hated Angel.

Wilah vs Fresley.

-I think Faith's redemption story kicks the shizzle out of Angel's, Spike's and Willow's respectively. Angel and Spike didn't have souls so I don't blame them for the soulless actions and Willow's redemption story was rushed.

Lyri
24-11-11, 09:23 AM
A lot of these aren't that unpopular but...

-I don't mind characters that many hate, like Warren, Kennedy, Dawn etc, but I dislike characters to whom I'm indifferent, e.g. most of the potentials, Graham.

-I HATE Glory. Ok maybe it's the actress but it felt like she was reading from an autocue.

-For me, I have no preference to the later or earlier seasons. My favourite seasons are 2, 3 and 6.

-I don't ship as such. I enjoyed Bangel, Ruffy and Spuffy as they happened, but I don't think Buffy *belongs* with any of them.

-I liked Connor. I found his arc in Season 4 intriguing, and I find it annoying when people say he was a one note character who simply hated Angel.

Wilah vs Fresley.

-I think Faith's redemption story kicks the shizzle out of Angel's, Spike's and Willow's respectively. Angel and Spike didn't have souls so I don't blame them for the soulless actions and Willow's redemption story was rushed.

I agree with everything except the Glory thing - she's my favorite villain - but the rest? Totally with you on all of it.

buffyholic
24-11-11, 10:37 AM
Draco Malfoy Syndrome? I never heard that. Wow, you learn something new every day!:)


Back to Angel, I feel for both him and Wesley. I understand them both. What Angel did at that moment was bad but understandable.

Sosa lola
24-11-11, 10:47 AM
I really hate it when people point out that Xander never changed. And that he's the same guy he was in S1. I invite these people to watch the first episode of S1 and the first episode in S7. Totally NOT the same guy.

kana
24-11-11, 12:27 PM
I agree with everything except the Glory thing - she's my favorite villain - but the rest? Totally with you on all of it.

Yeah, I'm aware that's quite an unpopular opinion. I get what they were going for, but I just didn't like Kramer's performance. :(.

sueworld
24-11-11, 01:39 PM
-I think Faith's redemption story kicks the shizzle out of Angel's, Spike's and Willow's respectively. Angel and Spike didn't have souls so I don't blame them for the soulless actions and Willow's redemption story was rushed.

Nah, not for me I'm afraid. For me It's toss up between Spike and Wesley. Both of whom had very convincingly written and complex story arcs which really drew me in.

kana
24-11-11, 02:41 PM
Nah, not for me I'm afraid. For me It's toss up between Spike and Wesley. Both of whom had very convincingly written and complex story arcs which really drew me in.

Wes is actually a subtle one but it's arguable whether it's really a redemption story or not. It's not made clear what exactly he's atoning for.

Spike? For me it's still uncertain whether he's totally morally responsible for his soulless crimes, although he's an interesting subject when it comes to how we should judge (if at all) soulless vampires.

ChaddyMan1
24-11-11, 08:58 PM
1) I hate Vampires! Period! There be none that I am glad to Know of.

2) Where the **** is The First Good? Seriously! Not even a First Neutral? What the hell Joss?! I know you're an atheist but damn man you could have least thrown in your own idea of an anthropomorphic personification of Good! It wouldn't have killed you!

3) The First Evil? Really? Beyond good and evil you say? Evil's in your ******* name!

4) I hate mummies just as much if not more than vampires! I am glad there are only 2 episodes dealing with them. Seriously they are the Dane Cook of monsters.

5) I love ******* Xander!

6) I may be the only man to have cried during Innocence, I was 9 or 10.

7) I lost my affection for Buffy during or after season 4.

8) I was initially angry at Xander for the lie but during season 3 I came to view it as one of the most awesome things to occur in the damn Buffyverse.

9) The Chuthlu Mythos! Dawn's the freaking key and you don't follow up on that Joss? Shame on you! Xander's dating a freaking Eldritch abomination given human form! How is that not expanded upon!

Faith
25-11-11, 01:27 AM
This, however, has little to do with how much Buffy thought about Spike prior to Crush. These are two completely different matters.
I realize they're completely different matters, hence my talk of another can of worms.



To some of his fans. Please don't generalize. I'm a big Spike fan and I love the canon Spike, a really interesting and fascinating character, not a fanon Saint Spike the Whitewashed Knight that some people seem to like. And I know for a fact that there are lots of Spike fans who feel the same way I do. Spike is interesting for the very reason that he was really evil and was often still a real arsehole when he was in the gray area... Sometimes even after he turned good (Harmony in S5). But overall he had an amazing journey, and that's the whole point of the character, that he changed, "evolved" as Joss would say.



BTW Sosa Lola was quoting me, I'm the one who wrote that opinion that "Harmony being annoying in no way makes Spike's behavior OK" in the Unpopular Opinions Sanctuary LJ post, and Spike is one of my two favorite characters in Buffyverse.


Again, just for a portion of Angel fans who whitewash and idealize him, not for all his fans and certainly not for the fandom in general.

I'm likely to say what I think based on what I've experienced. I'm a Spike fan myself, and am no way saying all of his fans do anything all the time. Or Angel. Let's not put words into my mouth, please.


I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I'm not sure how you can form an opinion on the Buffy/Spike relationship or whether Buffy felt superior in season 5, if you stopped watching regularly at the end of season 4? What were the "important" episodes you watched? (I think that every episode is important, if not for the plot, then certainly for the characterization.)

I don't remember saying that I didn't watch any of those seasons, I watched quite a bit but not regularly or rabidly like I had before, so I don't know episode names, their order, or even exact plotlines of a few of the episodes. The point was that I didn't know enough about the episode in question to comment. As far as what's important, I mean I went out of my way to watch the big milestones like The body and OMWF when I knew they were coming up. I've seen plenty of seasons 5-6, just not every single episode. If my disagreement for some reason blows your candle out, I can't help you, because I'm going to form my own opinions.

I don't know if this is a touchy subject for you or what. :/

Edit: I'm going to try and chalk this up to I don't know you so I might be reading excess attitude into your post where there wasn't any.

TimeTravellingBunny
25-11-11, 01:44 AM
I'm likely to say what I think based on what I've experienced. I'm a Spike fan myself, and am no way saying all of his fans do anything all the time. Or Angel. Let's not put words into my mouth, please.
It could have been understood that way, since you just said "Spike fans". It's good we've cleared that up.


I don't remember saying that I didn't watch any of those seasons, I watched quite a bit but not regularly or rabidly like I had before, so I don't know episode names, their order, or even exact plotlines of a few of the episodes. The point was that I didn't know enough about the episode in question to comment. As far as what's important, I mean I went out of my way to watch the big milestones like The body and OMWF when I knew they were coming up. I've seen plenty of seasons 5-6, just not every single episode. If my disagreement for some reason blows your candle out, I can't help you, because I'm going to form my own opinions.

I don't know if this is a touchy subject for you or what. :/
Is there any need for that kind of attitude?

I'm not sure where you got the thing about me being bothered by "disagreement" (despite the fact that I haven't actually expressed any, let alone voiced any problems with any potential disagreement) or that I'm about to forbid you to make your own opinions (?!)... I asked you how many episodes you watched and which ones? Because, sorry but I have to say that basing opinions on an episode here and there or just the big episodes that people recommended is less valid than doing it by watching all the episodes, i.e. watching the show as it was meant to be seen. It's the reason why people aren't supposed to write reviews about movies they haven't seen (or they watched just the first and the last 15 minutes or the most important scenes).

Faith
25-11-11, 01:50 AM
It could have been understood that way, since you just said "Spike fans". It's good we've cleared that up.


Is there any need for that kind of attitude?

I'm not sure where you got the thing about me being bothered by "disagreement" (despite the fact that I haven't actually expressed any, let alone voiced any problems with any potential disagreement) or that I'm about to forbid you to make your own opinions (?!)... I asked you how many episodes you watched and which ones? Because, sorry but I have to say that basing opinions on an episode here and there or just the big episodes that people recommended is less valid than doing it by watching all the episodes, i.e. watching the show as it was meant to be seen. It's the reason why people aren't supposed to write reviews about movies they haven't seen (or they watched just the first and the last 15 minutes or the most important scenes).

It seems like you had an attitude with me, which was what I was reacting to. And yes, it seems like you had an issue with my saying things you disagreed with because the tone was, in fact, insulting - so I ask you back, was there a need for that?

But I don't think my opinions are less valid because I didn't watch every single episode. To be frank, one of the big reasons I stopped watching regularly was the Buffy/Spike thing was starting to really bug me and I'm a big advocate of if you don't like it, don't watch it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I misunderstood you, but the tone is definitely there to be misunderstood. I don't want to argue, so I'm gong to stop.

ChaddyMan1
25-11-11, 04:35 AM
10) Buffy should have ventured into the realm of crimefighting!

11) Joss shouldn't have had Buffy and Riley break up so fast.

12) All of the Scoobie Gang arguments have been epic!

13) Spike and Drusilla should have introduced later in the series.

14) They should have shown where Buffy learned all those Kung Fu moves from. I'll forgive them for not showing where all the vampies learned their's.

15) Slayers should be allowed to use modernized weapons.

sueworld
25-11-11, 10:21 AM
9) The Chuthlu Mythos! Dawn's the freaking key and you don't follow up on that Joss? Shame on you! Xander's dating a freaking Eldritch abomination given human form! How is that not expanded upon!

Eh, beg pardon. Care to expand further on this because I have no idea where you're getting this from.

buffyholic
25-11-11, 10:52 AM
Xander changed a lot throughout the show. He has a lot of confidence in himself by the final season and he´s always been the heart. Example: his pep talks in "The Freshman", "Potential" and his part on the spell to defeat Adam was the heart.

ChaddyMan1
25-11-11, 03:57 PM
Eh, beg pardon. Care to expand further on this because I have no idea where you're getting this from.

Well as you know Sue Joss is a fan of Lovecraft's work and has himself incorporated Mr Lovecraft's into his own. The Great Old One's for instance, You know the ones in the Deeper Well?

Yog-Sothoth is The Key http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yog-Sothoth

Tell me if the link don't work.

sueworld
25-11-11, 04:22 PM
Thing is I don't believe that the whole Dawn/Key story was anything like that. Dawn was originally just a ball of energy, not some sentient elder god.

ChaddyMan1
25-11-11, 04:37 PM
Thing is I don't believe that the whole Dawn/Key story was anything like that. Dawn was originally just a ball of energy, not some sentient elder god.

Did you read the part where they say that he manifests himself as spherical glowing energy? It's right after they say all his titles.

sueworld
25-11-11, 04:47 PM
I still think It doesn't feel the same to me.

ChaddyMan1
25-11-11, 04:53 PM
I still think It doesn't feel the same to me.

That's cool. I just thought it was funny Xander chose another one :lol: But this time he went higher up on the food chain. Next he'll probably bring home Chuthlu in a wig :lol: Oh man I am going to have to draw that.

buffyholic
26-11-11, 11:44 AM
I really think the writers did a good job with Dawn in season 5. Her situation was a metaphor for adoption and it was well acted and well written.
And I think they just state she is a ball of green energy, that´s all.

ChaddyMan1
28-11-11, 05:37 PM
16) Need to been shown how the hell the slayer empowerment works!

17) Where the **** is the Big Guy?! Seriously? Not even Aten?

18) Giles's flaming baseball bat should have worked!

19) The Angel and Xander conversation at the hospital was epic!

20) The grand finale for Buffy should have been 2 hours!

21) Restless should have been longer.

22) Season 8 should have been planned out from beginning to end.

23) Riley was amazing!

24) Since I brought it up, Chuthlu needs to be brought in!

buffyholic
29-11-11, 11:23 AM
The Buffy finale was meant to be a two-hour finale but I´m not sure if it was budget issues or something else that didn´t work out that kept that from happening.

TimeTravellingBunny
29-11-11, 02:30 PM
The Buffy finale was meant to be a two-hour finale but I´m not sure if it was budget issues or something else that didn´t work out that kept that from happening.
I think it certainly would have been better if it was longer. A lot of things seemed rushed.

Here's an unpopular opinion:

Dru is not an eternal victim that needs to be put out of her misery. What Angel(us) did to her was horrible, but she is not miserable and forever suffering as Angel(us) hoped she would be, she is actually having a really good time being evil. I'm not even sure if she's really insane* - she can be perfectly rational, she just has her own, idiosyncratic ways of thinking and expressing herself, she's in her own world with her visions. If a soul was forced upon her, she would be incredibly unhappy and tortured, but as soulless, she seems to be having quite a good time.

* Interesting that he said in in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered "Maybe I did drive you crazy", like he isn't sure that's really the case.

Nina
29-11-11, 02:55 PM
I agree with that. Also she seems pretty sane after fleeing to Prague, which takes place after he killed her whole family. In Prague she has to watch how Angelus kills all the other nuns and has sex with Darla, and while that's a good reason to be scared, I'm not sure if that would drive her totally insane either. Not saying that it had no influence on her at all, but I don't know if she is really is as nuts as she pretends she is and if it's all Angelus' doing.

Talking about Dru, I love how the other three vamps talk with her. She can say the weirdest things and the other three just go with it. Her team-up with Darla was wonderful.

TimeTravellingBunny
29-11-11, 03:29 PM
I agree with that. Also she seems pretty sane after fleeing to Prague, which takes place after he killed her whole family. In Prague she has to watch how Angelus kills all the other nuns and has sex with Darla, and while that's a good reason to be scared, I'm not sure if that would drive her totally insane either. Not saying that it had no influence on her at all, but I don't know if she is really is as nuts as she pretends she is and if it's all Angelus' doing.
I don't think she pretends anything, I just think she's eccentric rather than deranged. For instance, Spike in Lessons appeared insane, Drusilla never really did - she can function and make rational decisions and communicate with people and can take care of herself. She just occasionally says things that seem really weird to others but probably make sense to her. And she does have the visions, not delusions, which is probably a large part of the reason why she seems a bit like she's in her own world. Maybe it's a bit like being a genius astrophysicist with poor social skills, who keeps company with people who don't understand what you're talking about.

Nina
29-11-11, 03:47 PM
I would certainly put her in the 'deranged' category. By example her the childish behavior, her obsession with kids and her creepy dolls are probably the result of losing her innocence and her parents. Sure she isn't "seeing stuff that isn't there and talking nonsense" insane, but she is certainly more damaged than eccentric people.

Perhaps 'pretending' wasn't the right word, but I do have the feeling she is sometimes worse than on other days. And it could be that she simply has good and bad days, but it wouldn't suprise me is she is faking it a little because she enjoys to be the child/helpless woman. I feel like she is more stable on her own than when she has somebody with her.

TimeTravellingBunny
29-11-11, 05:44 PM
I would certainly put her in the 'deranged' category. By example her the childish behavior, her obsession with kids and her creepy dolls are probably the result of losing her innocence and her parents. Sure she isn't "seeing stuff that isn't there and talking nonsense" insane, but she is certainly more damaged than eccentric people.

Perhaps 'pretending' wasn't the right word, but I do have the feeling she is sometimes worse than on other days. And it could be that she simply has good and bad days, but it wouldn't suprise me is she is faking it a little because she enjoys to be the child/helpless woman. I feel like she is more stable on her own than when she has somebody with her.It depends on how you define "insanity". She has very childlike traits and there is also an element of acting out the role of a little girl. She seems to have some sort of personality disorder, as we would put it (beyond the soullessness itself, which is similar to psychopathy in many ways), but I would put her in the category of people with personality disorders who are still functional and responsible for their actions. I'm not sure it's something that needs to be cured - she is able to get by, as far as vampires go, pretty well, and doesn't seem any more at risk or miserable than any "normal" vampire.

And maybe I just like this since it doesn't fit the "irreparably damaged victim of abuse" stereotype. That's one way to look at it, and then another one is that she's OK with how she is. (Well, there's the fact that she's evil and kills people, including children - but so are most other vampires.)

kana
29-11-11, 06:28 PM
Drusilla is certainly a quagmire, because her lucidity comes and goes. Her thought pattern is often non-sequiter (at least in how she expresses herself) but actions are very deliberate and she was able to commit to tasks such as getting the Judge up and running (although Spike did help) and her torture of Angel seemed very deliberate in WML despite not showing any visable disdain towards Angelus whenever he was about. I might do solo study on Drusilla when I get the time. I miss doing my little character studies :(.

Sosa lola
29-11-11, 07:19 PM
Xander didn't wait until the wedding to break up with Anya. That sounds too cruel. Yes, he had doubts before, but that doesn't mean he was waiting for Anya's happiest day to break her heart. He was going to marry her despite the doubts until the fake visions he had to live through.

ChaddyMan1
29-11-11, 07:27 PM
Xander didn't wait until the wedding to break up with Anya. That sounds too cruel. Yes, he had doubts before, but that doesn't mean he was waiting for Anya's happiest day to break her heart. He was going to marry her despite the doubts until the fake visions he had to live through.

Till this day I think he still thinks those visions were real.

25) Every character on Buffy needs a therapist!

26) Every character on Angel except Cordelia, Gunn, Lorne need a therapist!

TimeTravellingBunny
30-11-11, 12:57 AM
25) Every character on Buffy needs a therapist!

26) Every character on Angel except Cordelia, Gunn, Lorne need a therapist!
I don't think that's unpopular. :)

ChaddyMan1
30-11-11, 01:46 AM
I don't think that's unpopular. :)

You either want it or you don't :lol: I don't know if people would be able to stomache the necessary time it would take for the characters psychological recovery :D

TimeTravellingBunny
30-11-11, 01:48 AM
You either want it or you don't :lol: I don't know if people would be able to stomache the necessary time it would take for the characters psychological recovery :D
Well, Joss even gave Buffy a (little unusual) therapist for an episode... and it's one of my favorite episodes!

Maybe someone could write a Buffy/Frasier crossover fanfic... or draw a Buffy/Dr Katz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Katz,_Professional_Therapist) crossover comic/cartoon!

ChaddyMan1
30-11-11, 01:53 AM
Well, Joss even gave Buffy a (little unusual) therapist for an episode... and it's one of my favorite episodes!

Maybe someone could write a Buffy/Frasier crossover fanfic... or draw a Buffy/Dr Katz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Katz,_Professional_Therapist) crossover comic/cartoon!

They could even use the seizure joke for the Katz crossover! Oh and they could set it in the Normal Again universe!

That poor poor therapist :cutecry:

27) That therapist should have lived!

_Buffy_
30-11-11, 07:39 AM
I don`t agree that every character in Buffy needs a therapist. Bufffy`s world is weird enough and IMO all the characters handle very well with all the weirds situations.

But I agree about Angel. He is seriously unstable. I mean , when he is going to lose his soul so easy . It is really dangerous trap for him and I feel hor him about this. Like He said, it is not connected only with the sex with the right person. He is able to lost his soul every day in every moment of happiness. And even with a soul Angel is so psychically unstable- i.e. - Angel in S 2. Rememebr when he burns in flames Darla and Dru and when Darla said - it wasn`t Angelus , it wasn`t Angel either .....

buffyholic
30-11-11, 10:59 AM
I agree, I think almost every character are in need of therapy. I mean, just look at their parents too. Only Joyce and Fred´s parents are remotely normal and happy.

ChaddyMan1
30-11-11, 08:08 PM
28) In the early seasons of the show they should have shown who stops the various apocalypses when a slayer isn't around. Like what happens when there is an apocalypse in Japan or Russia? Who stops it?

29) They need to show past slayers dealing with apocalypse type situations, cause so far I think Buffy is the only slayer that has to deal with them :lol:

Osiris1803
30-11-11, 08:49 PM
I found Joss's reuse of actors for various roles rather annoying. Recycling just looks like laziness to me. I find myself thinking 'ooh they played so and so in this episode' instead of paying attention to the storyline.

Season 4 of Angel is possibly one of the worst written seasons I have ever seen. The only thing I enjoyed in it was The Beast.

Nina
30-11-11, 10:37 PM
28) In the early seasons of the show they should have shown who stops the various apocalypses when a slayer isn't around. Like what happens when there is an apocalypse in Japan or Russia? Who stops it?

29) They need to show past slayers dealing with apocalypse type situations, cause so far I think Buffy is the only slayer that has to deal with them :lol:

I agree with these, and the intro annoyed me, the one where they claim that only the slayer can take on the demons and vampires. It's not logical (indeed one person who stays at one place will never be the only one to protect the earth) and we saw it wasn't true. BtVS but mostly Ats introduced so many other warriors; soldiers, good demons, human hunters, watcher squads, gangsters, supernatural people like Connor and Groo etc.

Glad they stopped using that intro, but it shouldn't have been there in the first place because it doesn't make sense.


Another of my unpopular opinions is that I'm not a fan of the urge the writers had to make the characters better than your average person. You see the same in not so great fanfics. List with the universities the characters got accepted in; Buffy (Northwestern), Cordelia (Duke & Columbia), Fred (UCLA), Willow (any university), Oz (well he was one of the two best students of the school, also any university?), Connor (Any univerity, went to Stanford), Dawn (Berkeley), Giles (Oxford) and Wesley (Oxford). The characters I didn't list are often portrayed as intelligent and/or successful at a young age as well. Wesley even states that Angel is smarter than any other Ats character despite never going to school.

And a lot of the characters are ~special~. Buffy is said to be the greatest slayer of all time, Willow is the strongest witch and top of her class, Angel and Spike are the two most vicious vampires ever, Wesley was the greatest talent the COW ever had, Cordy was cheerleader captain, Fred was so good she got dumped in a hell dimension, Connor was top of his class and only child of vampires ever, Dawn was the key... even Nina, Angel's random girlfriend, was a special werewolf.

Poor Gunn and Xander, I can't blame Gunn for being insecure in season 4/5.

I like normal characters, the ones who won't show up in history books, who can't beat others with one movement and who don't go the the finest universities in the world. Of course you can have one or two smart characters or a character who is the best in something... but so many? And it's often so pointless; Why is Connor besides being a ~special~ case and great warrior, also super good at school? We get it; he is in a good place now... but would he be in a bad place if he wasn't top of his class? Don't think so.

ChaddyMan1
01-12-11, 12:15 AM
30) Dracula needs to come back for season 9

31) They need to show what memories were changed to suit Dawn's existence. That comic so does not count :lol:

Lyri
01-12-11, 12:18 AM
I never thought Xander/Nicholas Brendan was fat, and he was the best looking man in the verse until Christian Kane showed up in Angel.

Apparently, that's a hugely unpopular opinion, which I just found out today. Huh.

ChaddyMan1
01-12-11, 12:26 AM
I never thought Xander/Nicholas Brendan was fat, and he was the best looking man in the verse until Christian Kane showed up in Angel.

Apparently, that's a hugely unpopular opinion, which I just found out today. Huh.

Oh Lyri alot of people make fun of Mr. Brendon's weight gain. They call him a bunch of names :( Which isn't cool cause it's not nice to make fun of another human's vice.

32) It is not cool to make fun of another human's vice or failings.

Lyri
01-12-11, 12:31 AM
Oh Lyri alot of people make fun of Mr. Brendon's weight gain. They call him a bunch of names :( Which isn't cool cause it's not nice to make fun of another human's vice.

I've been watching this show since it first aired, I've been in fandom for about 10 years, I helped run another BtVS forum, and I never once heard anyone making fun of Nicky's weight or calling him ugly until today. I was truly, truly shocked when I read that thread today.

I met Nicky about two years ago. He was incredibly well presented, looked to be in great shape, and was still as good looking to me as the first day I watched 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'.

I understand people have different opinions and tastes on what they find attractive, but to suggest that someone is not worth thinking about just because of the way they look or how much they weigh really disgusts me.




32) It is not cool to make fun of another human's vice or failings.

I very much agree with this. It's not cool to use someone's weight or looks as an argument for your ship, either.

ChaddyMan1
01-12-11, 12:39 AM
I've been watching this show since it first aired, I've been in fandom for about 10 years, I helped run another BtVS forum, and I never once heard anyone making fun of Nicky's weight or calling him ugly until today. I was truly, truly shocked when I read that thread today.

I met Nicky about two years ago. He was incredibly well presented, looked to be in great shape, and was still as good looking to me as the first day I watched 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'.

I understand people have different opinions and tastes on what they find attractive, but to suggest that someone is not worth thinking about just because of the way they look or how much they weigh really disgusts me.





I very much agree with this. It's not cool to use someone's weight or looks as an argument for your ship, either.

You're lucky Lyri Mr. Brendon has been called many worse things on this forum. We all got into a very big argument dealing with that like 7-8 months ago that got many people banned. It got very ugly, very fast.

Lyri
01-12-11, 12:45 AM
You're lucky Lyri Mr. Brendon has been called many worse things on this forum. We all got into a very big argument dealing with that like 7-8 months ago that got many people banned. It got very ugly, very fast.

Wow, I'm really glad I wasn't here for that. That sounds horrible.

ChaddyMan1
01-12-11, 12:49 AM
Wow, I'm really glad I wasn't here for that. That sounds horrible.

It was very much so. When people can't win an argument they turn to petty spite just to anger the opposition.

Jack Shaftoe
01-12-11, 03:12 AM
I've been watching this show since it first aired, I've been in fandom for about 10 years, I helped run another BtVS forum, and I never once heard anyone making fun of Nicky's weight or calling him ugly until today. I was truly, truly shocked when I read that thread today.

This reminds me of my first interactions with the BtVS fandom when I learned that some fans used to call Amber Benson fat back in S4-5. I know it's internet fandom and extreme reactions are like the norm here but still. Hating Tara? That's fine, everyone likes different characters for different reasons. Thinking that Amber can't act? Also understandable, those things are subjective and let's face it, she isn't going to win an Oscar any time soon. But fat? For real, people? First, making fun of people for being fat - not cool at all. Second, Amber Benson isn't even remotely in the vicinity of being fat, no matter what monstrosities she was forced to wear in the show.


Another of my unpopular opinions is that I'm not a fan of the urge the writers had to make the characters better than your average person. You see the same in not so great fanfics. List with the universities the characters got accepted in; Buffy (Northwestern), Cordelia (Duke & Columbia), Fred (UCLA), Willow (any university), Oz (well he was one of the two best students of the school, also any university?), Connor (Any univerity, went to Stanford), Dawn (Berkeley), Giles (Oxford) and Wesley (Oxford). The characters I didn't list are often portrayed as intelligent and/or successful at a young age as well. Wesley even states that Angel is smarter than any other Ats character despite never going to school.

This only annoyed me with Buffy and Cordelia. I get it that they wanted to show the girls who love fashion and cheerleading can be smart too but they could have just being accepted to less prestigious universities. But on TV apparently you either go the an Ivy League calibre university or the crappy local one with nothing in between because other colleges don't exist. :)


And a lot of the characters are ~special~. Buffy is said to be the greatest slayer of all time, Willow is the strongest witch and top of her class, Angel and Spike are the two most vicious vampires ever, Wesley was the greatest talent the COW ever had, Cordy was cheerleader captain, Fred was so good she got dumped in a hell dimension, Connor was top of his class and only child of vampires ever, Dawn was the key... even Nina, Angel's random girlfriend, was a special werewolf.

I didn't remember that about Wesley. Some Wes fan, am I? :) But I do agree that it felt awfully convenient that Willow in less that a year became from a witch who seemed reasonably competent but no better than Tara to the gang's "Big Gun". Her story suffered a lot from making it all about magic, and the rest of the plots were full of contrivances to ensure she couldn't snap her fingers and solve all problems.


I like normal characters, the ones who won't show up in history books, who can't beat others with one movement and who don't go the the finest universities in the world. Of course you can have one or two smart characters or a character who is the best in something... but so many?

I agree, it's an overkill. BtVS turned from a show about about a bunch of (relatively) normal people and one superhero to a show where everyone is super-something except for one or two Token Normals. AtS was even worse, in the end only the superpowered beings survived to fight in the final battle, unless we count a half-dead Gunn.

sueworld
01-12-11, 09:04 AM
You're lucky Lyri Mr. Brendon has been called many worse things on this forum. We all got into a very big argument dealing with that like 7-8 months ago that got many people banned. It got very ugly, very fast.

And which argument was that then? Because I know in the past certain posters seemed to have difficulty accepting that poor old Brenden had a serious drinking problem during part of his run on the show and during that particular debate I don't recall anyone calling him names at all. In fact apart from yesterday I don't remember anyone ever having ago at the actor instead of the character.


Thinking that Amber can't act? Also understandable, those things are subjective and let's face it, she isn't going to win an Oscar any time soon. But fat? For real, people? First, making fun of people for being fat - not cool at all. Second, Amber Benson isn't even remotely in the vicinity of being fat, no matter what monstrosities she was forced to wear in the show.

Well sadly prejudice against body types started at the top when it came to this character. I remember reading an interview with Marti Noxon years back where she talked about the initial casting of Tara, and how Marti had been very keen on using Amber, but It had been Whedon who's blocked her employing her to begin with as he'd said that Amber didn't fit in with how he'd visualized the character, as he'd wanted somebody more 'bird like' (oh there's as surprise I know) and It had taken a lot of persuading on her part to get Joss to accept her. So you see Whedon wasn't immune to that kind of thing himself.

Hence his desire to nearly always cast waif like women for his main roles.


AtS was even worse, in the end only the superpowered beings survived to fight in the final battle, unless we count a half-dead Gunn.

Well makes a change from the ending of Buffy where all the demons pegged it and only the humans were left standing, unless you exclude the Slayers of course.

Nina
01-12-11, 10:16 AM
Both shows suffered from "more supernatural powers" and "more epicness" in the final season. In Ats almost all non-supernatural characters died and in BtVS they were sidelined to the point that the potentials only believed in their own power when they got superpowers. Girls, you need super powers (forced through your throat) to be empowered, without those you are useless. The only (slightly) important female characters who are/were not supernatural in some way were; Kate (forgotten but still alive *yay*), Lilah (dead evil character) and Joyce (dead mom). You could argue Dawn (supernatual origins but no extra powers) and Fred (she died and Illyria is not her.)

I guess another UO;

BtVS was certainly a show about female empowerment in the early seasons but I wouldn't call season 7 or what happens in 'Chosen' a good example of female empowerment, I would even call it slightly anti-men and anti-normal women. And Ats season 5 is an absolute disgrace in this area because it's incredibly anti-women.

Artea
01-12-11, 10:26 AM
Well makes a change from the ending of Buffy where all the demons pegged it and only the humans were left standing, unless you exclude the Slayers of course.Except not. Anya was a human and Spike was (unfortunately) resurrected a few days later. 'Chosen' is very much about the supremacy of superpowered people: the amulet can only be worn by someone 'stronger than human', dumping superpowers on people without asking their permission is presented as an amazing act of empowerment, Buffy spends most of her scenes with superpowered folk and barely interacts with normal people, etc. Heck, Sunnydale was completely abandoned: where were these normal people that Buffy is supposed to protect?


BtVS was certainly a show about female empowerment in the early seasons but I wouldn't call season 7 or what happens in 'Chosen' a good example of female empowerment, I would even call it slightly anti-men and anti-normal women. And Ats season 5 is and absolute disgrace in this area because it's incredibly anti-women.I agree. I would even go so far as to call S6-7 anti-feminist. Which is hilarious, considering they were obviously trying so hard with very heavy-handed metaphors for female empowerment and like half a dozen misogynistic villains.

sueworld
01-12-11, 10:47 AM
Except not. Anya was a human and Spike was (unfortunately) resurrected a few days later. 'Chosen' is very much about the supremacy of superpowered people: the amulet can only be worn by someone 'stronger than human', dumping superpowers on people without asking their permission is presented as an amazing act of empowerment, Buffy spends most of her scenes with superpowered folk and barely interacts with normal people, etc. Heck, Sunnydale was completely abandoned: where were these normal people that Buffy is supposed to protect?


Did anyone miss the title of this show as being 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

As I've said before It's fantasy show, which revolves around a lead character who's got super human powers, something (judging by the comic book industry alone) people find really exciting and interesting to watch/read about, so imo of course the writers are going to want to run with that side of things. It's what helps sell the thing after all.

It's a metaphor of a girls life, but writ large. It's not trying to be the Wire after all.

Artea
01-12-11, 11:00 AM
Did anyone miss the title of this show as being 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

As I've said before It's fantasy show, which revolves around a lead character who's got super human powers, something (judging by the comic book industry alone) people find really exciting and interesting to watch/read about, so imo of course the writers are going to want to run with that side of things. It's what helps sell the thing after all.

It's a metaphor of a girls life, but writ large. It's not trying to be the Wire after all.Why, thank you for the tone of condescension. And what on earth are you talking about? I wasn't discussing the realism of the show, I was talking about its message. A story about a superhero doesn't really work when there are no people to protect. Or when said superhero has to all the heavy lifting when her sidekick and best friend can snap her fingers and turn people into frogs or pull a Satanic temple out her ass with which to destroy the planet.

And if BtVS is supposed to be a metaphor of a girl's life, like you claim, then your argument makes even less sense. Unless no girl ever graduates from college, or has a job, or dates something other than corpses.

sueworld
01-12-11, 11:04 AM
And if BtVS is supposed to be a metaphor of a girl's life, like you claim, then your argument makes even less sense. Unless no girl ever graduates from college, or has a job, or dates something other than corpses.

I don't claim it, Joss claims it. It's like when talking about high school for some kids being hell, well in Buffy's world it really is just that.

It's about the real monsters in her life representing elements/problems of a real girls life. Being a fan (well maybe you're not I don't know really) you'd have heard people talk about the show in this manner as well as the shows writers.

sueworld
01-12-11, 11:09 AM
And if BtVS is supposed to be a metaphor of a girl's life, like you claim, then your argument makes even less sense. Unless no girl ever graduates from college, or has a job, or dates something other than corpses.

This is where Google is you friend you see. :) I've just found this quote from Whedon talking about the show.


The supernatural elements in the series stood as metaphors for personal anxieties associated with adolescence and young adulthood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer_(TV_series)

Artea
01-12-11, 11:37 AM
Uh yeah, I'm well aware of the basic metaphors that make up the show. I was just pointing out the flaw in your argument.

sueworld
01-12-11, 11:39 AM
Well considering the source I'd say If there's any kind of flaw it's in Whedons argument rather then my own. :) He states It's 'life writ large' so there ya go.

vampmogs
01-12-11, 02:18 PM
Well sadly prejudice against body types started at the top when it came to this character. I remember reading an interview with Marti Noxon years back where she talked about the initial casting of Tara, and how Marti had been very keen on using Amber, but It had been Whedon who's blocked her employing her to begin with as he'd said that Amber didn't fit in with how he'd visualized the character, as he'd wanted somebody more 'bird like' (oh there's as surprise I know) and It had taken a lot of persuading on her part to get Joss to accept her. So you see Whedon wasn't immune to that kind of thing himself.

Hence his desire to nearly always cast waif like women for his main roles.

I think you're misrepresenting Whedon here. The reason he envisioned Tara as being 'bird like' is because he wanted her to be like an early version of Willow, both emotionally and physically. His original idea for the character was for her to resemble how Willow was in the first season of the show. It had nothing to do with prejudice and it's quite normal for a writer to have a very specific idea of what their character should look like. If that's evidence of prejudice you'd also have to criticize Whedon for asking Jewel Staite to PUT ON weight for the role of Kaylee in Firefly. Joss envisioned that character to have more meat on her so the actress actually was asked to gain weight to land the part. Also, remember that Whedon had originally cast a larger actress for Willow but it was the network that wanted a change, so he has nothing against employing what Hollywood would consider 'big' women. He gave Miracle Laurie a role in Dollhouse and apparently she's considered fat by most people working in the industry.

Whedon shows are full of diverse body shapes for women. You have Gina Torrens who is commonly reffered to as "Amazonian", vuluptuous actresses such as Charisma Carpenter or Eliza Dushku, petite women such as Ally Hannigan and Amy Acker, and then all ranges of shapes and sizes varying from Elisabeth Rhome to Amber Benson.

sueworld
01-12-11, 02:24 PM
I'm afraid I still disagree. I think like most of those who work in TV he's always going to err on the side of 'perfect women' as in thin and pretty, and I still stand by my view that If It was not for Noxon Amber would not have got the role and a great deal of that was due to her not visually fitting Whedons image of Tara as she was more normal in stature.

vampmogs
01-12-11, 02:35 PM
I'm afraid I still disagree. I think like most of those who work in TV he's always going to err on the side of 'perfect women' as in thin and pretty, and I still stand by my view that If It was not for Noxon Amber would not have got the role and a great deal of that was due to her not visually fitting Whedons image of Tara.

I don't disagree. If it weren't for Noxon then Amber probably would not have got the role. However, I do strongly disagree with you that it had anything to do with Joss having a prejudice against larger women. His reasons for envisioning Tara as 'bird like' are well-known and have to do with a specific idea that a writer had for their character. As I said, if this is somehow evidence that Joss has a prejudice against casting larger women then surely logic would dictate he also must have a prejudice against 'waif-like' actresses for asking Jewel Staite to gain weight. So which is it? :headscratch:

And at the end of the day Joss agreed to hire Amber so whatever 'issues' he may have had with her shape, they obviously weren't so insummountable that he couldn't change his mind. And since a number of actresses have come out to say that Whedon is one of few people who will employ them even if they don't fit that Hollywood mould, I tend to take their word for it.

sueworld
01-12-11, 02:42 PM
Sorry imo Jewel is an exception to the rule (not that I remember her being that over weight of course), as imo most of Wheon choice seem to err more on the side of slightly built female characters such as River, Willow and Fred. The later being his favorite characters of course.

KingofCretins
01-12-11, 02:47 PM
I'm afraid I still disagree. I think like most of those who work in TV he's always going to err on the side of 'perfect women' as in thin and pretty, and I still stand by my view that If It was not for Noxon Amber would not have got the role and a great deal of that was due to her not visually fitting Whedons image of Tara as she was more normal in stature.

I'm not entirely sure what it means, that you disagree? You disagree that Joss said those things? Or you disagree that's what he meant when he said those things? If the former... he said them. If the latter... well, glad he has other people there to explain those things to him.

Vampmogs speaks unambiguous fact -- the original casting idea for Tara was explicitly stated to be based on mirroring Willow from the early seasons. Which, you may recall, was a role originally casted with an actress who was not at all bird like at the time (and whose recasting can be put down beyond question to the caliber of acting and chemistry provided by Aly, not her slight figure).

EDIT: Miracle Laurie.

C-C-C-C-C-C-C-Combo breaker?

sueworld
01-12-11, 02:53 PM
I'm afraid I just interpret what Whedon said a slightly different way, especially as his desire for (at that point) casting certain body types influences my take on it.

But hey, as he said at a live talk once where most of the cast were present and were talking about their roles and being hired(and I'm paraphrasing here) 'Well as you may have noticed none of you are exactly ugly and there's a reason for that'.

vampmogs
01-12-11, 03:00 PM
Sorry imo Jewel is an exception to the rule (not that I remember her being that over weight of course), as imo most of Wheon choice seem to err more on the side of slightly built female characters such as River, Willow and Fred. The later being his favorite characters of course.

If someone has a prejudice is there really such a thing as an "exception to the rule"? Besides, where do you factor Miracle Laurie into all of this? She is one of the actresses who has said how Whedon was one of very few producers who gave her a job despite her not being a stick-thin supermodel.

You've listed three petite actresses out of a sea of women Joss has hired over the years. Women with many diverse body types and who aren't all shaped like Summer Glau or Amy Acker. Thats indisputable because the proof is right there on our screens. So I'm afraid I can't find much logic in what you're saying here.

PS; I also suspect that if Noxon knew her story would be twisted in this way then she probably wouldn't have said anything. Both she and Joss have always spoken very highly of each other, are close friends, and have come to each others defense. I find it extremely doubtful Noxon was ever trying to publicly insinuate that Whedon had a prejudice against bigger women or that he didn't want to hire Amber because she didn't titillate him the way a 'bird like' actress does. She has more respect for him as a colleague and as a WRITER than that. As far as I'm concerned she made it pretty clear that Joss was approaching this from an artistic viewpoint (to contrast how far Willow had come, no doubt) and that she persuaded him to tweak his vision.

sueworld
01-12-11, 03:12 PM
Well call me jaded because I think when it comes down to it there very little difference between Whedons casting choices and any other hollywood blokes.

vampmogs
01-12-11, 03:22 PM
I'm happy to leave it at you being jaded then. 'Cause whilst I certainly don't disagree that Whedon's shows, like most of (American) TV, are cast full of beautiful people, I'm also going to take actresses such as Miracle Laurie at their word. If she says he was one of the only producers who would hire her, then he was. Likewise, if Jewel Staite says she was asked by Joss to put on weight, then he did. I'd say the only reason to ignore those things would be if you just don't like the guy and I can't do anything about that *shrugs*

I'll bow out of the discussion now.

KingofCretins
01-12-11, 03:32 PM
I'm happy to leave it at you being jaded then. 'Cause whilst I certainly don't disagree that Whedon's shows, like most of (American) TV, are cast full of beautiful people, I'm also going to take actresses such as Miracle Laurie at their word. If she says he was one of the only producers who would hire her, then he was. Likewise, if Jewel Staite says she was asked by Joss to put on weight, then he did. I'd say the only reason to ignore those things would be if you just don't like the guy and I can't do anything about that *shrugs*

I'll bow out of the discussion now.

It's an instructive reminder, that popular or unpopular, some opinions are outright fact-proof. What do Jewel Staite and Miracle Laurie know about their own casting? What does it matter that the first run at casting the pilot included Riff Regan who, certainly for Hollywood perspective, was not a petit fleur? Joss is a misogynist hump -- when he's not a rapist (http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html), of course.

sueworld
01-12-11, 03:32 PM
if Jewel Staite says she was asked by Joss to put on weight, then he did

Yeah, but hang on how 'fat' did she get? I doubt If she looked obese.

KingofCretins
01-12-11, 03:35 PM
Yeah, but hang on how 'fat' did she get? I doubt If she looked obese.

I've never heard her quantify it, but considering that she was about as skinny as a reed in Cheats, I'd say she put on between 20-30 lbs for "Firefly".

sueworld
01-12-11, 03:46 PM
So hardly what you'd call 'big' then?

vampmogs
01-12-11, 03:47 PM
Um, I never said she got "fat" or was asked to get "fat." I said she was asked to gain weight. That is all. All it is, is proof that Whedon had specific visions for many of his characters and sometimes that means a character being "bird like" and sometimes it means they need to eat another cheeseburger. My point was that Whedon's supposed "prejudice" would mean he's against both bigger and smaller women. Which makes no sense.

sueworld
01-12-11, 03:48 PM
Yeah, but If this actress was ridiculously skinny to begin with asking her to put on some weight is hardly going beyond the normal remit for Hollywood types.

vampmogs
01-12-11, 03:53 PM
We're talking about the same guy who gave Christina Hendricks one of her first big roles on TV. She's pretty much *iconic* for not being a stick figure, for crying out loud. He has cast many different shaped women. It's not something I'm going to waste a lot of time arguing about because the proof is right there on screen.

sueworld
01-12-11, 03:55 PM
Well we're see. I've just stuck a poll up on my lj and so we'll see If I'm the only one to view things this way. :)

KingofCretins
01-12-11, 04:01 PM
Well we're see. I've just stuck a poll up on my lj and so we'll see If I'm the only one to view things this way. :)

Well, I know the first place I always go to for an objective, representative sample is a page which, by definition, is populated almost entirely by people who tend to agree with me.

Mogs, excellent example with Christina Hendricks as well. I love how the line has been moved to where Joss has to be casting people who would qualify as actually obese to avoid being a pig.

sueworld
01-12-11, 04:06 PM
Well for me I find that women are often more sensitive to certain topics then some men really, and LJ has a large percentage of women of course. :)


I love how the line has been moved to where Joss has to be casting people who would qualify as actually obese to avoid being a pig.

Your words not mine love.

KingofCretins
01-12-11, 05:02 PM
Well for me I find that women are often more sensitive to certain topics then some men really, and LJ has a large percentage of women of course. :)

And, naturally, a few dozen who have gravitated to your specific livejournal are a representative cross-section of female opinion. No, it makes total sense, can't wait to see the results. I'm warming up my shocked face for when 66% plus agree with your central opinion. I'll be back in a while, I'm going to go to a New York Yankees fan site and start a poll on how much the Red Sox suck. Science!

sueworld
01-12-11, 05:12 PM
So are folks on here any less bias then? Judging by remarks I've seen on here in the past not likely really. :lol:

Jack Shaftoe
01-12-11, 07:38 PM
Dear god, I opened the can of worms with my remarks about Amber Benson, didn't I? :)

My opinion is somewhere in the middle. I don't think Joss is primarily motivated by his own fetishes but I do think he has way too many similarly built women cast as his main characters and way too few who aren't both twenty-something and skinny like supermodels. Sure, so do most TV showrunners but a guy who just can't shut up about feminism gets to be judged by a higher standards. And don't get me wrong, I am shallow enough to very much enjoy watching all those beautiful actresses in his shows, I just wish there was more variety. In Dollhouse for example, Olivia Williams was IMO by far the best looking woman in the show and the best actress too.

The problem with Tara intended to be "bird-like" is that at that point all the other important female characters in the show were also tiny. So tiny in fact that Amber Benson sometimes looked far bigger than them while in real life nobody in their right mind would ever consider her fat or too tall. Plus, there are some unfortunate implications in Tara needing to be "bird like" in order to be the damsel in distress type of character or heck, in needing a damsel in distress in the first place just because Willow couldn't play that part very well any more. And a character can exude vulnerability without necessarily being waif-like, after all.


BtVS was certainly a show about female empowerment in the early seasons but I wouldn't call season 7 or what happens in 'Chosen' a good example of female empowerment, I would even call it slightly anti-men and anti-normal women. And Ats season 5 is an absolute disgrace in this area because it's incredibly anti-women.

Yes, it always cracks me up when I think that the more the writers tried to make BtVS feminist, the less feminist it actually became. Back when they didn't have grand political statements as their main priority the message came across far more naturally and it wasn't contradicted by the incredibly sloppy execution.

KingofCretins
01-12-11, 08:33 PM
I think where I find ridiculousness and false controversy is that the term "bird-like" has connotations that obviously depart pretty quickly from "skinny and hot". I can't tell you when the last time I saw a Maxim photo shoot and said "man, that chick is sooooo bird-like".

"Bird-like", in the sense Joss very clearly meant it, referred to... delicacy. A diminishing, fragile quality. Sarah is tiny. Sarah is not "bird-like" by any rational interpretation I can comprehend. As Buffy, her physicality was assertive and believable.

Amber Benson is not "bird-like" and never was. I think, especially the more of her other work I see, it was probably hard for her to project fragility of any kind, and all for reasons that have nothing to do with her physicality. Which, incidentally, is completely smokin' hot and always was, IMO. She sort of sneaks and steals "Restless" from an eye candy standpoint for me.

vampmogs
02-12-11, 12:05 AM
Well we're see. I've just stuck a poll up on my lj and so we'll see If I'm the only one to view things this way. :)

With all due respect, you could post 1000 polls and it wouldn't change anything. No objective person can sit there and claim that Christina Hendricks, Gina Torrens, Amy Acker, Miracle Laurie and Sarah Michelle Gellar all have the same shaped body. You and I both know they don't. Anybody who posts in your poll knows they don't. And the media knows they don't or Miracle Laurie wouldn't be continuously asked about it and there wouldn't be thousands of articles on Hendrick's figure. I find it insulting to the actresses to claim otherwise. But I'm sure people will anyway if it means getting to criticise Whedon.



My opinion is somewhere in the middle. I don't think Joss is primarily motivated by his own fetishes but I do think he has way too many similarly built women cast as his main characters and way too few who aren't both twenty-something and skinny like supermodels. Sure, so do most TV showrunners but a guy who just can't shut up about feminism gets to be judged by a higher standards.

You do have to take into account network influence as well. Joss had to fight really hard to get Miracle Laurie on Dollhouse and actresses such as Stephanie Romanov were apparently fired by the WB for being too old. Riff Regan was also fired by the WB. Most of the actresses that would come for casting calls would be "twenty-something skinny supermodels" because that's the nature of the business in LA. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of beautiful people on Whedon shows but I take Miracle at her word when she says he was one of few producers who would give her a chance. I'm hardly saying Whedon is some great revolution in this area, like most American TV his shows are still chock full of glamorous people, but there's far more diversity in his cast than just "bird like" women which seemed to be the original claim.


I think where I find ridiculousness and false controversy is that the term "bird-like" has connotations that obviously depart pretty quickly from "skinny and hot". I can't tell you when the last time I saw a Maxim photo shoot and said "man, that chick is sooooo bird-like".

Totally agree. I can't say I've ever heard any male describe someone who he thinks as sexy as "bird like." As far as I'm concerned, the description has no sexual connotations at all. It makes me think of someone who is frail or meek but not sexy or slim.


"Bird-like", in the sense Joss very clearly meant it, referred to... delicacy. A diminishing, fragile quality. Sarah is tiny. Sarah is not "bird-like" by any rational interpretation I can comprehend. As Buffy, her physicality was assertive and believable.

Well said.

sueworld
02-12-11, 12:39 AM
With all due respect, you could post 1000 polls and it wouldn't change anything. No objective person can sit there and claim that Christina Hendricks, Gina Torrens, Amy Acker, Miracle Laurie and Sarah Michelle Gellar all have the same shaped body. You and I both know they don't. Anybody who posts in your poll knows they don't. And the media knows they don't or Miracle Laurie wouldn't be continuously asked about it and there wouldn't be thousands of articles on Hendrick's figure. I find it insulting to the actresses to claim otherwise. But I'm sure people will anyway if it means getting to criticise Whedon.

Or god help them have a different opinion then your own, because as weird as it may seem they'll allowed to. :)

KingofCretins
02-12-11, 12:47 AM
Or god help them have a different opinion then your own, because as weird as it may seem they'll allowed to. :)

An opinion based on the premise that the examples Vampmogs provided are actresses that really fit all the conventional stereotypes of Hollywood casting, and that there has been no notice paid in popular culture to them standing out from the norm, is invalidated by its total objective failure of factual support.

sueworld
02-12-11, 12:49 AM
It's an opinion as valid as anyone else's imo. Sorry It doesn't fit in your view of things. :)

vampmogs
02-12-11, 01:34 AM
Or god help them have a different opinion then your own, because as weird as it may seem they'll allowed to. :)

This isn't a matter of "opinion." It's a matter of cold hard fact. Miracle Laurie does NOT have the same body type as Sarah Michelle Gellar. Christina Hendricks does NOT have the same body type as Amy Acker. You just need a pair of eyes and a little common sense to look at these women and plainly see that.

I just did a quick Google search and surprise, surprise Hendricks and Gellar have a dramatically different body. Hendricks wears a size 14 whilst Gellar wore a size 0 when on BtVS. You still going to tell me that it's a perfectly valid "opinion" that these women's bodies are both the same?

sueworld
02-12-11, 01:36 AM
Thats two out of how many others? Look hon, lets agree to disagree? Both our positions seem pretty entrenched.

vampmogs
02-12-11, 01:44 AM
Thats two out of how many others?

Wait, so first you claimed Jewel Staite was the "exception to the rule" and now you're dismissing Hendricks as well? Yeah, I think we really will have to stop this conversation now because it's clear that no matter what I say you'll just dismiss it. I can't be bothered. I'm out.

sueworld
02-12-11, 01:47 AM
Sorry as I said before thats just two actresses out of how many shows?

But as If you pop over to my lj I'm sure you'll see other irrational women (but not all) saying pretty much the same thing. :)

vampmogs
02-12-11, 02:02 AM
Sorry as I said before thats just two actresses out of how many shows?

Gina Torrens? Miracle Laurie? Riff Regan? Charisma Carpenter? I'm sure you're about to tell me that they are all "bird like" too?


But as If you pop over to my lj I'm sure you'll see other irrational women (but not all) saying pretty much the same thing. :)

Do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything about irrational "women" and I'd appreciate it if you *do not* attempt to colour my statements in that way. I'm far more likely to dismiss most of those comments based on their hate for Whedon (and yes, I have the statements to back that up) than I am their gender. You and I both know that a lot of your flist is very anti-Whedon and that your poll, as per, would reflect that. So lets not play games. We both knew what the results of that poll would be long before you posted it and I suspect that's why you did it in the first place.

There are plenty of women on this forum who apparently agree with me that there's diversity amongst Whedon's actors, if the "likes" under people's posts are anything to go by. I couldn't give a rat's arse if it's a man or a woman claiming there's no difference between Hendricks/Gellar or Laurie/Acker because either way, they're wrong. And, yes, I actually can back that up with cold hard fact.

But as I said, I'm no longer wasting my time with this conversation because I don't think it's rooted in any kind of logic. It's just arguing for the sake of arguing.

sueworld
02-12-11, 02:05 AM
Do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything about irrational "women"

I don't think I did did I?


There are plenty of women on this forum who apparently agree with me

Ah well thats good to hear then.

Anyhoo, as I said lets call it a day as you're clearly hacked off and I have better things to do with my time. :)

KingofCretins
02-12-11, 02:47 AM
If your opinion was 2+2=5, it would be wrong. Opinions are not valid just because they are opinions. And Joss as archetypical Hollywood fanservice casting mogul is no more credible than 2+2=5.

sueworld
02-12-11, 02:51 AM
Sorry nah, but then unlike your good self I doubt If Whedon would be all that bothered about what I think of his casting choices so whats the big deal what a few people think.

Oh darn that free speech malarkey. :lol:

KingofCretins
02-12-11, 05:09 AM
Oh darn that free speech malarkey. :lol:

"Free speech"? I'm sorry, has some agent of government used force or threat of force to compel you away from expressing yourself freely? Saying 2+2=5 is free speech. Telling you it isn't, is also free speech, and not an interference with your own.


Do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything about irrational "women" and I'd appreciate it if you *do not* attempt to colour my statements in that way.

Disagree substantially enough, Mogs, and you're going to be subtly called a misogynist. Lotion, basket.

Turning back to some "unpopular opinions" back a few pages ago when bilateral discussion was still taking place...


30) Dracula needs to come back for season 9

Not unpopular with me -- very engaging character when brought back in comic form.


31) They need to show what memories were changed to suit Dawn's existence. That comic so does not count :lol:

Maybe this is one of my unpopular opinions -- I don't need any more time spent on Dawn's origin. It's seemed to me since 6.01 that Joss had no interest, and I don't either. I don't get the intrigue in her "Key-ness" or what memories were altered or so on.


I never thought Xander/Nicholas Brendan was fat, and he was the best looking man in the verse until Christian Kane showed up in Angel.

Apparently, that's a hugely unpopular opinion, which I just found out today. Huh.

Heh, that's not just unpopular, it's downright heretical amongst many fans :)

sueworld
02-12-11, 08:14 AM
"Free speech"? I'm sorry, has some agent of government used force or threat of force to compel you away from expressing yourself freely?

No, just overt sarcasm as per by the looks of it. Honestly whats bothering you about what I and a few others think? Do you imagine Whedon would be bothered, somehow I don't think so.


Disagree substantially enough, Mogs, and you're going to be subtly called a misogynist. Lotion, basket.

Your words yet again hon, and not mine. Forgive me for saying this but from where I'm standing all this is just coming across as being completely OTT.

vampmogs
02-12-11, 12:20 PM
Maybe this is one of my unpopular opinions -- I don't need any more time spent on Dawn's origin. It's seemed to me since 6.01 that Joss had no interest, and I don't either. I don't get the intrigue in her "Key-ness" or what memories were altered or so on.

Agreed. One of my favourite fan theories is that the reason Dawn felt so unnoticed and insignificant all her life is because she was. The Scoobies have memories of her being there but the monks didn't alter anything so drastically that Dawn significantly changed anything we saw in S1-S4. Unlike Johnothan who deliberately altered memories so he had the protagonists role, which fundamentally changed the character's personas in a way that Dawn didn't. It'd certainly explain the sensation Buffy feels in Real Me when she talks about Dawn really starting to bug her lately. It was the first time she was actually having an impact.

And I agree about Dracula. He was a superb character in the comics and I'd love for him to come back.

Michael
02-12-11, 07:55 PM
Yes, I think that when Dawn arrived Buffy felt the stress of having a new member of the family all the more because she did not know that Dawn was new.

sueworld
02-12-11, 10:21 PM
And I agree about Dracula. He was a superb character in the comics and I'd love for him to come back.

That was my favorite arc in season 9 I'm afraid. I really liked how they incorporated him that.

Oh and not to stir things up yet again, but today somebody passed this along regarding Joss's comments on what he was looking for when casting Tara.


From the "Casting Buffy" DVD extra:

Joss: We read a lot of girls. Amber came in and, physically, was not the type. She was more womanly and voluptuous and she gave an incredible read. Physically it wasn't what I had been thinking about. It was Marti Noxon who said "We have to read that girl again. I think that's the girl".


So she physically wasn't what he was after. I thought I'd remembered that properly. I was beginning to doubt myself there for a moment.

vampmogs
02-12-11, 11:16 PM
When did anybody say otherwise? We know that physically she wasn't what he wanted. He wanted someone "bird like." That's what this whole argument has been about? :headscratch:

ChaddyMan1
02-12-11, 11:19 PM
33) Joss will not be able to top An invading sentient universe as the biggest bad.EVER Unless the Anti-Monitor shows up :lol: Or his Dark Horse counterpart.

34) There needs to be a crossover with Dynamite's Army of Darkness!

35) Xander needs to try for a college too or at least a community college.

sueworld
02-12-11, 11:20 PM
Totally agree. I can't say I've ever heard any male describe someone who he thinks as sexy as "bird like." As far as I'm concerned, the description has no sexual connotations at all. It makes me think of someone who is frail or meek but not sexy or slim.


I don't disagree. If it weren't for Noxon then Amber probably would not have got the role. However, I do strongly disagree with you that it had anything to do with Joss having a prejudice against larger women. His reasons for envisioning Tara as 'bird like' are well-known and have to do with a specific idea that a writer had for their character.

I'm sorry but thats how some of what people were saying came across to me. That 'bird like' was more a mental thing then physical.

vampmogs
02-12-11, 11:28 PM
Huh? You've clearly got the wrong end of the stick then. Nobody is denying that Joss didn't want Tara because of her body type. All we were saying is that it's not because he has a "prejudice" against larger women in general (as you accused him of) but rather because in this particular instance he envisioned the character as being "bird like." He wanted her to resemble early Willow both in her personality as well as physically.

That's the whole reason I brought up the counter argument with Jewel Statie where he asked her to gain weight because he envisioned Kaylee being bigger. He didn't want to reject Amber Benson because he only likes casting waifs (as you tried to imply) but because that with this particular character he had a specific idea of what she should look like in his head. Just like he did with Kaylee when he wanted the complete opposite and didn't want a "bird like" woman for the role at all. So, yes, Joss sometimes does have a very specific idea of what a character should look like in his head but that doesn't mean they'll all be very skinny. In the case of Firefly he actually wanted the actress to stop exercising and eat more.

Nobody ever denied the issue was with Amber's weight. I just strongly disagreed with how you tried to misrepresent it as Joss rejecting her because he only likes casting waif-like actresses and has a prejudice against larger women. It wasn't for those reasons at all. He rejected her because he imagined Tara looking different in his mind and he had artistic reasons for wanting it that way.

sueworld
02-12-11, 11:39 PM
Well as I said before Jewel State was hardly large even after the weight gain, and so still looked fairly petite imo.

All directors have their own preferences and I still do believe that going for 'Willow like' actresses is his. Sure they'll be exceptions to the rule, but I'm still of a mind that he likes a certain look when he can get it.

vampmogs
02-12-11, 11:53 PM
Well as I said before Jewel State was hardly large even after the weight gain, and so still looked fairly petite imo.

She talks about it here;

"I did. I was asked to put on weight. Joss felt that Kaylee would be a more voluptuous type of girl. He wanted her to look like she really enjoyed life. She really indulged in all life had to offer, which I appreciated. I'm naturally thin. I'm 23. My metabolism is incredibly fast right now. I'm sure things will change. And so he asked me to put on 15-20 pounds. So I did."

She originally put on 15-20 pounds for the role but that expresses how difficult she found it to keep the weight on. It's got nothing to do with Joss that you still think she looks petite. The point is that he doesn't have a prejudice against voluptuous or womanly figures whatsoever, and in some cases will actually ask for it if that's how he wants a specific character to look. Tara was just not one of those cases.


Sure they'll be exceptions to the rule, but I'm still of a mind that he likes a certain look when he can get it.

If you want to say something is an "exception to the rule" then you got to actually prove that. Because so far you've only ever listed three actresses who you consider waif-like (Alyson Hannigan, Summer Glau, Amy Acker) and they're hardly the majority of the women who Joss has cast over the years. I've already brought up Gina Torrens, Christina Hendricks, Miracle Laurie, Charisma Carpenter, Jewel Staite, Riff Regan and Eliza Dushku just as example of people who could not be described that way at all. As well as actresses who have publicly come out and said that Joss gave them a chance that most other producers wouldn't because they didn't look like a Hollywood stick-figure. So looking at all the evidence here I'm afraid I don't understand how your math adds up because 3 actresses make up a minority, not the "rule."

sueworld
02-12-11, 11:55 PM
She originally put on 15-20 pounds for the role but that expresses how difficult she found it to keep the weight on.


My god she must have been really bloody thin before then, thats all I can say because she still looked small afterwards. But then thats a TV thing in general is it not.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 12:06 AM
36) Willow coming out as a lesbian happened way too fast.

37) Xander and Buffy should have attempted to date in season 7.

38) I found those first few episodes of season 7 adorable.

39) Xander should have been really screwed up from all those energy blasts he took from Willow.

KingofCretins
03-12-11, 01:26 AM
So she physically wasn't what he was after. I thought I'd remembered that properly. I was beginning to doubt myself there for a moment.

Yes, you heard it. You just completely misunderstood it or are intentionally misrepresenting it, because in context, it does not mean what you're inferring it means, nor is it a reasonable misinterpretation, because he explicitly draws the parallel to Season 1 Willow -- the least sexualized female character of the first season, incidentally.

Eff it. There is absolutely no point.


33) Joss will not be able to top An invading sentient universe as the biggest bad.EVER Unless the Anti-Monitor shows up :lol: Or his DarkHourse counterpart.

He'd never be able to "top" it in many senses, but I don't think he'll try, either. But here might be my unpopular opinion -- Season 8 was better and more suspenseful when it was about a tyrannical powerhouse in a mask rallying the mundane world against the Slayers for the purpose of imposing his own sense of order and purging the world of magic (i.e. 8.01 through 8.32-and-a-half)


34) There needs to be a crossover with Dynamite's Army of Darkness!

I'm wary of canon crossover, it marries you to other mythology. So, unpopular with me! Boo, opinion :)


35) Xander needs to try for a college too or at least a community college.

Gonna disagree again. He is the most financially successful of any of his friends, with nothing more than a diploma, and if anything, that is something that deserves a role model. I would be cool with them expanding his skillset or trades, though.


36) Willow coming out as a lesbian happened way too fast.

I don't know what the "correct" rate would be, so no opinion.


37) Xander and Buffy should have attempted to date in season 7.

I think it needed to be dealt with, even if they didn't date. Something out of the Mal/Zoe, Wes/Cordy playbook, if nothing else. I mean, they could have actually done "War Stories" with Buffy and Xander as Mal and Zoe and Angel (season 2) or Spike (season 7) as Wash. Instead of the war stories insecurity Wash had, deal with all those "sees you all the time, can be with you in daylight, can grow old, etc" insecurities that are implicit in all vampire romance and that Angel actually talked about.


39) Xander should have been really screwed up from all those energy blasts he took from Willow.

She only got him a good one just the once, though. Do you think it was just an undersell by Nick Brendon? I'd hate to fault his performance in arguably the best scene for him.

TimeTravellingBunny
03-12-11, 01:52 AM
It would be great to have a real male/female friendship (with neither of the parties being gay) where neither party is in love or having a crush on the other and there is no suppressed attraction or flirtation that they have to get over or awkwardly talk about, yada yada yada. You might want to pay tribute to the cliche that "men and women can't be friends" cliche by having someone else ask if they ever dated/slept together/wanted to sleep together, and have those two laugh: WTF? Kinda like War Stories.

There was never something like that in Buffyverse, which is one of its most annoying failings.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 02:03 AM
He'd never be able to "top" it in many senses, but I don't think he'll try, either. But here might be my unpopular opinion -- Season 8 was better and more suspenseful when it was about a tyrannical powerhouse in a mask rallying the mundane world against the Slayers for the purpose of imposing his own sense of order and purging the world of magic (i.e. 8.01 through 8.32-and-a-half)

Word. Although even with the space-frak, Twilight was a better-designed Big Bad than the Trio, Darth Rosenberg, The First, Glory, The Mayor and The Master. I do adore The Initiative (another UO) and Angelus.


[QUOTE=ChaddyMan1;595734]36) Willow coming out as a lesbian happened way too fast.

I persist in reading Willow as bi no matter what the text tells me. It's not just because I'm a Willoz and Xillow shipper and an early seasons enthusiast. Willow having lusty wrong thoughts for guys and covering it up with weird "If I wasn't gay before seeing the Penis Monster" stuff fits perfectly in her psychological profile- people-pleasing, insecure, desperate for a firm label because she feels in flux, a certain lack of self-awareness. I wouldn't be so critical and quick to mistrust a real person's sexuality but I think it's my birthright to that sort of reading between the lines with a fictional character and I'm irritated by stuff I've seen on Tumblr and the like saying that it's a form of homophobia at worst or utter cluelessness on sexuality at best. Back off, people.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 02:09 AM
UO: Wesley made Angel for me. Normally, I'm a strict "ensemblist" when it comes to my favorite TV shows and I have at least three TV characters that I'm super-invested in and watching for their journey. Not Angel. I have varying fondness for other characters and I don't regret my first viewing of their journey but I rate the show as highly as I do because of Wesley. I only rewatch Wesley's scenes. I've never been so single-character focused as that show.

And Alexis Denisof gave the best performance in the entire Whedonverse. I can't believe that he's not a big movie star or has his own show.

vampmogs
03-12-11, 02:18 AM
Oh, speaking of performances; I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not but I think Olivia Williams (Adelle Dewitt, Dollhouse) is the finest actor out of any Whedon show and pretty much in a league of her own. I'm ashamed to admit how little I knew of her before that show but understanding how respected she is now, especially in the British Film Industry, it's quite astounding Joss managed to score her for DH. I still remember back when the casting sides first came out for the DH characters that I pretty much just wanted Stephanie Romanov to play Adelle because she and Lilah seemed so alike. I still think Stephanie is fab but oh how glad I am that Olivia was cast instead. I fell in love with her from the moment I saw the first trailer, in particular the way she delivers the line "zombie slaves" and her eyes light up a little. She's just brilliant.

Speaking of Dollhouse;

- It's the most ambitious show Joss has ever done
- It is incredibly underrated
- When it's good it's better than AtS or Firefly on their best days
- Belonging is the most unsettling hour of television I have EVER watched in my life. I was actually shaking through most of it. I've never had that reaction to TV before. Ever.
- They should have made the DH comics about the clients and the actual Dollhouse. Not the Epitaph future.
- If it had been made for Showtime, FX, or HBO, it would still be on the air now. And it'd be an even better show for it.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 02:20 AM
Ooh, I love Olivia Williams. She's my second favorite Whedon actor. Perhaps if she had more seasons to show her stuff, she'd ratchet up to #1.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 02:22 AM
Yes, you heard it. You just completely misunderstood it or are intentionally misrepresenting it, because in context, it does not mean what you're inferring it means, nor is it a reasonable misinterpretation, because he explicitly draws the parallel to Season 1 Willow -- the least sexualized female character of the first season, incidentally.

Eff it. There is absolutely no point.



He'd never be able to "top" it in many senses, but I don't think he'll try, either. But here might be my unpopular opinion -- Season 8 was better and more suspenseful when it was about a tyrannical powerhouse in a mask rallying the mundane world against the Slayers for the purpose of imposing his own sense of order and purging the world of magic (i.e. 8.01 through 8.32-and-a-half)



I'm wary of canon crossover, it marries you to other mythology. So, unpopular with me! Boo, opinion :)



Gonna disagree again. He is the most financially successful of any of his friends, with nothing more than a diploma, and if anything, that is something that deserves a role model. I would be cool with them expanding his skillset or trades, though.



I don't know what the "correct" rate would be, so no opinion.



I think it needed to be dealt with, even if they didn't date. Something out of the Mal/Zoe, Wes/Cordy playbook, if nothing else. I mean, they could have actually done "War Stories" with Buffy and Xander as Mal and Zoe and Angel (season 2) or Spike (season 7) as Wash. Instead of the war stories insecurity Wash had, deal with all those "sees you all the time, can be with you in daylight, can grow old, etc" insecurities that are implicit in all vampire romance and that Angel actually talked about.



She only got him a good one just the once, though. Do you think it was just an undersell by Nick Brendon? I'd hate to fault his performance in arguably the best scene for him.

I liked Twilight better that way too. As the way of Twilight of the Gods you know? Like I wanted Twilight's purpose to be to destroy all the supernatural elements, all of it. No more Gods, No more Demons, No more Slayers, No more Magic. And not like the way it is now. I wanted him to actually physically destroy everything supernatural so that nothing magical would have survived.

Oh the crossover would have to be way, way out of continuity considering The Evil Dead series exists as movies in The BuffyVerse :lol:

Oh he's financially successful but he could be more so than he is now. I've heard that people who go to college earn more money than those who don't. Plus it would look really good on a resume.

Neither do I. It just happened so suddenly with so little setup.

The reason I mentioned it is because of their actors asking too :lol: I was agreeing with them :D Also I really digged the family setting stuff in the early season 7 episodes.

Maybe that's what I thought it was. Him underselling it. Underselling the pain you know? I was counting the beam that he stepped into as well. Didn't she also shoot lightning at him? I remember eletricity.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 02:26 AM
I'm undecided on whether I'd like see Xander in college. It could be interesting but it's great how much success he was able to get in such an important field as construction without a college diploma.

I would like as much focus on the main characters' jobs as there was on high school in S1-3, especially if things are going to be more normal in the future. It seems ripe to have "Workplace as Hell" metaphors now that the characters are grownups. The Office can't be the only show with the corner on that. ;-)

vampmogs
03-12-11, 02:30 AM
Ooh, I love Olivia Williams. She's my second favorite Whedon actor. Perhaps if she had more seasons to show her stuff, she'd ratchet up to #1.

The thing I regret most about Dollhouse's cancellation (and the way they had to fast forward through all of the character arcs at an incredible pace) is that we didn't get to see Adelle's whole journey develop over the 6 seasons Joss had mapped out for the show. It would have been incredible to see it play out over time instead of how quickly they had to rush through it in S2. She was a terribly challenging character who made some truly awful decisions (handing Pryia over to Nolan, giving the remote wipe blueprints to Harding etc) but Olivia managed to make me love her the whole time. I think the writing was just so brave and I would have given anything to see it play out over 6 years until she becomes the woman we see in Epitaph 2.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 02:32 AM
Word. Although even with the space-frak, Twilight was a better-designed Big Bad than the Trio, Darth Rosenberg, The First, Glory, The Mayor and The Master. I do adore The Initiative (another UO) and Angelus.

[QUOTE]

I persist in reading Willow as bi no matter what the text tells me. It's not just because I'm a Willoz and Xillow shipper and an early seasons enthusiast. Willow having lusty wrong thoughts for guys and covering it up with weird "If I wasn't gay before seeing the Penis Monster" stuff fits perfectly in her psychological profile- people-pleasing, insecure, desperate for a firm label because she feels in flux, a certain lack of self-awareness. I wouldn't be so critical and quick to mistrust a real person's sexuality but I think it's my birthright to that sort of reading between the lines with a fictional character and I'm irritated by stuff I've seen on Tumblr and the like saying that it's a form of homophobia at worst or utter cluelessness on sexuality at best. Back off, people.

Oh I agree that she is bi, she wouldn't have had sex with a guy if she weren't. Unless they try to play it off as sexual confusion.

Also you're a Xillow fan? THAT'S AWESOME! :2party: I thought you guys had died out. I use be a big fan of that ship too *sigh* Then season 3 made me hate it.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 02:36 AM
The thing I regret most about Dollhouse's cancellation (and the way they had to fast forward through all of the character arcs at an incredible pace) is that we didn't get to see Adelle's whole journey develop over the 6 seasons Joss had mapped out for the show. It would have been incredible to see it play out over time instead of how quickly they had to rush through it in S2. She was a terribly challenging character who made some truly awful decisions (handing Pryia over to Nolan, giving the remote wipe blueprints to Harding etc) but Olivia managed to make me love her the whole time. I think the writing was just so brave and I would have given anything to see it play out over 6 years until she becomes the woman we see in Epitaph 2.

I've only seen like three quarter of S1 but I'm waiting for a time to marathon more. Still, Adelle just stuck out for me in three quarters of a season more than most characters do with five year arcs. Awesome actress, awesome character.



Also you're a Xillow fan? THAT'S AWESOME! :2party: I thought you guys had died out. I use be a big fan of that ship too *sigh* Then season 3 made me hate it.

I know! We're a lonely bunch. I even like S3 Xillow For a bunch of reasons but especially for the Wishverse.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 02:44 AM
I've only seen like three quarter of S1 but I'm waiting for a time to marathon more. Still, Adelle just stuck out for me in three quarters of a season more than most characters do with five year arcs. Awesome actress, awesome character.



I know! We're a lonely bunch. I even like S3 Xillow For a bunch of reasons but especially for the Wishverse.

I loved the Wishverse! My favorite thing and this is going to sound morbid but I loved the fact that Xander killed Angel then Buffy killed Xander and then the Master killed Buffy! I was like Awesome! It was like a little call back to Prophecy Girl for me, which is probably my most favorite episode.

TimeTravellingBunny
03-12-11, 02:51 AM
Oh I agree that she is bi, she wouldn't have had sex with a guy if she weren't. Unless they try to play it off as sexual confusion.

Plenty of gay women have had sex with men before they came out, and plenty of gay men have had sex with women. Many were married and had kids. Likewise, there are straight people who have 'experimented' with the same sex and realized it's not their thing.

Having sex with people of both sexes doesn't make you bisexual in itself. Having no clear preference for having sex/romantic relationship with one of the sexes, or not giving too much importance to that preference, does.

KingofCretins
03-12-11, 03:03 AM
From what I've observed, character sexuality in popular fiction is sort of like a parking lot entrance with tire spikes -- one can move one direction effortlessly, but if there's any movement in the other direction, something ugly is gonna happen. Hence, in a mere two seasons, we give up on Willow, despite being very much in love with and hot for Tara, clearly picking up on Dracula's projected sexual allure to her, despite being in the group of a love spell that negates all her own preferences, her feeling like she had to change RJ into a girl.

vampmogs
03-12-11, 03:08 AM
The greatest thing about the Wishverse is that it was almost cathartic to see the characters all kill each other at the end. In a really morbid way, that is. Xander finally gets to kill Angel, and Buffy doesn't even blink, but it's certainly not a happy moment. Buffy in return kills him. Oz takes out his "vengeance" on Willow and shoves her onto a stake but it's a horrific thing to witness. Xander/Willow suck the life out of Cordy and Giles does nothing but watch, which many people suspect he was doing all along and that he caught them cheating on Cordy (and Oz) in Revelations. It's fascinating to me that the Wishverse gets to play out the character's darkest desires. I mean, the whole premise is "be careful what you wish for" when Cordy's wish backfires on her and she regrets not having Buffy around so it sets the tone for the entire episode. It's a brilliant episode and I love how that final bloodbath in particular plays out on all the different tensions within the group. They're not the same characters who are killing each other but the audience can't help but know their history. So when you see "Xander" dust "Angel" you can't help but think of the animosity between those two characters. And it's upsetting. There's no satisfaction to be gained from it.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 03:10 AM
Plenty of gay women have had sex with men before they came out, and plenty of gay men have had sex with women. Many were married and had kids. Likewise, there are straight people who have 'experimented' with the same sex and realized it's not their thing.

Having sex with people of both sexes doesn't make you bisexual in itself. Having no clear preference for having sex/romantic relationship with one of the sexes, or not giving too much importance to that preference, does.

I agree with that. However, I saw *Willow*, in particular, as having a roughly equal preference for both genders in her conduct, putting aside her declarations. Quite a bit of that is informed by AH having more chemistry with NB and SG than AB and IL.

I'd love more Riley in S9. He pissed me off with the vamp ho storyline of S5 and I was mad on Buffy's behalf to see him so easily remarried in S6 but Buffy still being friends with him in S8-9 was one of the most underrated things about the comics and it reminded me how charming I found Riley in S4 before the whole, "You don't need me enough" thing started in S5.


Giles does nothing but watch, which many people suspect he was doing all along and that he caught them cheating in Revelations.

I read somewhere that Vamp Xander and Vamp Willow act our their revenge against Giles for treating their human selves so distantly and coldly and in Xander's case, contemptuously and callously. "So you're a Watcher? Watch this."; "Not too bright, Book Guy". It's a dark critique but it has some merit.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 03:10 AM
Plenty of gay women have had sex with men before they came out, and plenty of gay men have had sex with women. Many were married and had kids. Likewise, there are straight people who have 'experimented' with the same sex and realized it's not their thing.

Having sex with people of both sexes doesn't make you bisexual in itself. Having no clear preference for having sex/romantic relationship with one of the sexes, or not giving too much importance to that preference, does.

Well hmmm... Only read this if you want it's kind of barbaric in it's wording cause that's the only way to explain it at least from me. I think in order to have sex in the first place you need to be able to be aroused by whoever you are mating with. That means you have to be attracted to that person. If you find both male and females attractive, then you have sex with them that makes you bi. Well I shouldn't say having sex with them makes you bi but the fact that you are able to be sexual aroused and then have sex with them does .

On a less heavy note :D
Star-crossed is a trope not a cliche Bunny :lol: I saw that conversation and so wanted to say that but it would have been a one liner.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 03:14 AM
The greatest thing about the Wishverse is that it was almost cathartic to see the characters all kill each other at the end. In a really morbid way, that is. Xander finally gets to kill Angel, and Buffy doesn't even blink, but it's certainly not a happy moment. Buffy in return kills him. Oz takes out his "vengeance" on Willow and shoves her onto a stake but it's a horrific thing to witness. Xander/Willow suck the life out of Cordy and Giles does nothing but watch, which many people suspect he was doing all along and that he caught them cheating in Revelations. It's fascinating to me that the Wishverse gets to play out the character's darkest desires. I mean, the whole premise is "be careful what you wish for" when Cordy's wish backfires on her and she regrets not having Buffy around. It's a brilliant episode and I love how that final bloodbath in particular plays out on all the different tensions within the group. They're not the same characters who are killing each other but the audience can't help but know their history. So when you see "Xander" dust "Angel" you can't help but think of the animosity between those two characters.

Did you read my post Mogs? :D That's the exact same reason I love it so! It was beautiful in horrible morbid way :lol: I know this will sound so wrong but it felt right to have the scoobies off one another.

vampmogs
03-12-11, 03:19 AM
I read somewhere that Vamp Xander and Vamp Willow act our their revenge against Giles for treating their human selves so distantly and coldly and in Xander's case, contemptuously and callously. "So you're a Watcher? Watch this."; "Not too bright, Book Guy". It's a dark critique but it has some merit.

Yes I've seen that interpretation too. As you say, it is a dark critique but the great thing about BtVS is that the writers totally add all of that into the group dynamics. A lesser show would stop at "Oh, they're all such great friends!" but the writers really developed tensions within the group and these darker elements. It makes them much more real. So I would say it definitely has merit.

I think one of the most fascinating moments between Buffy/Giles is when she screams out "read me the signs! Tell me my fortune! You're so useful sitting here with all your books, you're really a lotta help!" Buffy has such RAGE. And the great thing about that moment is that this would have been bubbling under the surface all season. She loved Giles and she considered him a friend and an ally but a part of her deeply resented his job and how he would send her alone to face danger every night. I love when those darker elements to the Scooby Gang expose themselves.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 03:27 AM
Yes I've seen that interpretation too. As you say, it is a dark critique but the great thing about BtVS is that the writers totally add all of that into the group dynamics. A lesser show would stop at "Oh, they're all such great friends!" but the writers really developed tensions within the group and these darker elements. It makes them much more real. So I would say it definitely has merit.

I think one of the most fascinating moments between Buffy/Giles is when she screams out "read me the signs! Tell me my fortune! You're so useful sitting here with all your books, you're really a lotta help!" Buffy has such RAGE. And the great thing about that moment is that this would have been bubbling under the surface all season. She loved Giles and she considered him a friend and an ally but a part of her deeply resented his job and how he would send her alone to face danger every night. I love when those darker elements to the Scooby Gang expose themselves.

I'd agree but in a qualified way. Some of the darker moments between the Scoobies were brilliant and were the reasons why I count this show among my favorites. Some were just awful. It's the difference between "No, have a good time. And don't forget to *not* write" and "Get off, Super-Bitch". Between the "Read me the signs" quote that you mentioned and "No, I think you've taught me everything I need to know."

That Prophecy Girl moment is definitely in my top five for the whole show.

vampmogs
03-12-11, 03:32 AM
Oh I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree there. "Get off, Super-bitch" is one of my favourite Buffy/Willow moments EVER. The stunts really should have topped or at least matched the brilliant Buffy/Faith fight, but other than that I think that whole scene is wonderful. I just love how all of that tension and resentment finally is unleashed and Willow lets loose. I mean;

"Six years as a sideman, now I get to be the Slayer"

and;

"Oh Buffy, you really need every square inch of your ass kicked"

Are also brilliant lines! Sorry but I just love them. I think it would have turned even more ugly if Willow had pushed Buffy too far and she started letting loose. Because throughout all of that fight Buffy kept herself very restrained whilst Willow just said and did everything she had been thinking about all these years.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 03:43 AM
I agree with that. However, I saw *Willow*, in particular, as having a roughly equal preference for both genders in her conduct, putting aside her declarations. Quite a bit of that is informed by AH having more chemistry with NB and SG than AB and IL.

I'd love more Riley in S9. He pissed me off with the vamp ho storyline of S5 and I was mad on Buffy's behalf to see him so easily remarried in S6 but Buffy still being friends with him in S8-9 was one of the most underrated things about the comics and it reminded me how charming I found Riley in S4 before the whole, "You don't need me enough" thing started in S5.



I read somewhere that Vamp Xander and Vamp Willow act our their revenge against Giles for treating their human selves so distantly and coldly and in Xander's case, contemptuously and callously. "So you're a Watcher? Watch this."; "Not too bright, Book Guy". It's a dark critique but it has some merit.

In the Wishverse do they say that Xander and Willow were part of the whitehats? Cause I don't remember that and the sad thing is the season 3 boxset is the only one I bought :lol: I can't believe I missed that. Do they say that Willow and Xander were an item before they were turned?

Dipstick
03-12-11, 03:47 AM
Oh I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree there. "Get off, Super-bitch" is one of my favourite Buffy/Willow moments EVER. The stunts really should have topped or at least matched the brilliant Buffy/Faith fight, but other than that I think that whole scene is wonderful. I just love how all of that tension and resentment finally is unleashed and Willow lets loose. I mean;

"Six years as a sideman, now I get to be the Slayer"

and;

"Oh Buffy, you really need every square inch of your ass kicked"

Are also brilliant lines! Sorry but I just love them. I think it would have turned even more ugly if Willow had pushed Buffy too far and she started letting loose. Because throughout all of that fight Buffy kept herself very restrained whilst Willow just said and did everything she had been thinking about all these years.



Yes, here's where we part ways. I think those last three eps of S6 are the deepest quality-trough of the show. I'm still pissed off about the Dark Willow arc.

I was never the targeted demo for a, "Isn't Willow just the worst?" story but those lines are particularly weak villain-gobbeldygook. I could see any sidekick-turned-evil in the WORLD saying, "Six years as a side man...", "Get off Super-Bitch", "Need to have every square inch..." Seriously, make the sidekick-turned-evil in question a man, a plumber, a jock, a very hetero stripper mourning her beloved trucker boyfriend, whatever- those lines are boilerplate for the trope. None of these lines are Willow-specific or Buffy/Willow-specific.

The closest to real that the fight was Willow's monologue after Buffy preferring to be dead and how that deepened Willow's own self-loathing. It was like two minutes of real compelling writing in the whole damn ep.

Sorry, I get black-eyed ragey at these eps.

I don't know if you're talking the Enemies or the Graduation Day or the This Year's Girl Buffy/Faith fight but I don't get how the Dark Willow/Buffy fight comes close to the reasonance and the specificity of *these* characters and *their* unique issues as "Mom was too busy enjoying the drinking and passing out parts of life that I never got what I wanted until now" or "And not only has she forgotten about her love, she's forgotten about the girl she nearly killed for him."

Incomparable in quality for me.

vampmogs
03-12-11, 03:53 AM
"Six years as a sideman now I get to be the Slayer" is rooted in their whole history. It's what they fight about it in Fear Itself when Willow resents how Buffy always takes command ("I'm not your sidekick!"). It's the tension between them in Tough Love when Willow wants to launch an assault against Glory and is seething that Buffy says she won't let her. I find it very relevant to their relationship.

TimeTravellingBunny
03-12-11, 03:54 AM
Well hmmm... Only read this if you want it's kind of barbaric in it's wording cause that's the only way to explain it at least from me. I think in order to have sex in the first place you need to be able to be aroused by whoever you are mating with. That means you have to be attracted to that person. If you find both male and females attractive, then you have sex with them that makes you bi. Well I shouldn't say having sex with them makes you bi but the fact that you are able to be sexual aroused and then have sex with them does .
Err, no. People get aroused by all sorts of stuff. Like touching the right place on the body. Or heck, sometimes the hormone level is enough to make you physically aroused. And I believe that by your definition, the absolute majority of people would be bi. I think that most people can at least appreciate the attractiveness of people of both sexes, even if they have no desire to have sex with them. Many gay people tried heterosexual relationships at some point before they came out, many are closeted gay people and have marriages and kids and all, which was the case with most gay people in the past.

Your view seems as extreme as the one that nobody is bisexual and that everyone is either straight or gay.

Also, there was no need for a spoiler tag. :lol:



Star-crossed is a trope not a cliche Bunny :lol: I saw that conversation and so wanted to say that but it would have been a one liner.
It's not like it can't be both.


I agree with that. However, I saw *Willow*, in particular, as having a roughly equal preference for both genders in her conduct, putting aside her declarations. Quite a bit of that is informed by AH having more chemistry with NB and SG than AB and IL.

Yeah, which is why Willow is more convincingly lesbian in the comics than on TV. I thought Willow was bi at the time I watched season 4 and most of season 5, but I can buy that she has a clear preference for women, since she wasn't portrayed as that sexual a character in high school seasons, which I didn't think of back then, until "Restless" when her scene with Tara (Piloow Book homage) had a clearer erotic vibe than anything we'd seen with Oz or Xander. I do think they went to far with things like turning RJ into a woman or "I don't go with the stubbly crowd".

I do think she's lesbian, but - while Stormwreath said she's 5 rather than 6 on Kinsey's scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale) (it would be pretty hard to argue that she's a 6), I'd say she's more likely a 4. Oz was a bit more than "incidental".

Jack Shaftoe
03-12-11, 04:03 AM
Oh, speaking of performances; I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not but I think Olivia Williams (Adelle Dewitt, Dollhouse) is the finest actor out of any Whedon show and pretty much in a league of her own.

I love Olivia Williams and her performance in Dohhouse but still I think there are others who have been at least as good like Anthony Head, Alexis Denisof or Enver Gjokaj. On a related note, it was downright hilarious how Gjokaj, Fran Kranz, Dichen Lachman and Olivia Williams dominated each and every scene their characters shared with the "stars" of the show Eliza Dushku and Tahmoh Penikett. But since I am shallow I loved Olivia the most of those four because that woman is smoking hot.

Talking of shallow I prefer Willow and Xander as friends and ship them with other character but their brief hook-up had better chemistry than the rest of their relationships.


It would be great to have a real male/female friendship (with neither of the parties being gay) where neither party is in love or having a crush on the other and there is no suppressed attraction or flirtation that they have to get over or awkwardly talk about, yada yada yada.

Yes, this led to results like Xander having lusted after every female cast member who made it to the opening credits (except for one-episode-in-the-credits, 100% lesbian Tara and he still had an erotic dream with her and Willow) and all of them at some point returning his feelings. And that's not even counting his sleeping with Faith.

There is also the Cordelia/Angel borefest, the Welsey-Gunn-Fred love triangle of doom, etc. I know writers are reluctant to add new characters just to be love interests but the intra-group dating was a bit too much for my taste.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 04:20 AM
"Six years as a sideman now I get to be the Slayer" is rooted in their whole history. It's what they fight about it in Fear Itself when Willow resents how Buffy always takes command ("I'm not your sidekick!"). It's the tension between them in Tough Love when Willow wants to launch an assault against Glory and is seething that Buffy says she won't let her. I find it very relevant to their relationship.

But it still feels like "sidekick to Buffy turns evil" boilerplate. If Xander went evil and someone asked me to write the most cliched one-liner I could think of, I'd probably pick something like, "Six years as a sideman now I get to be the Slayer". If Giles went evil and I had the same assignment, I'd write, "I was stuck as your tweed-clad Watcher but now I get to be the Slayer". (Except, "tweed-clad Watcher" gives it punch and specificity that the Two To Go version doesn't have.)

Is there anything *Willow* to that dialogue? Does she state any resentment that she does lead the group over and over when Buffy is MIA because she's getting tatts of the Mark of Eygohn or angsting about kicking a robot down the stairs or goes catatonic because she can't deal with Glory (said with all villainous sarcasm) and always has to step down because Buffy's the Big Boss, never more clearly than when Willow resurrected Buffy? Does she kvetch about why she has to be the sidekick when she's smarter, more powerful, volunteered for this instead of was picked, gave up bigger opportunities, taught herself superpowers- regardless of the truth in the statements, something an egomanic high on herself Willow would think?

Most egregiously in the charge of "bad writing", does she have any line about how this is the second time that Tara's been "ended" in an attack meant for Buffy? If I was writing a "Willow goes evil because Tara died and Buffy won't let Willow take vengeance" story, you bet I'd write some line like, "First, Tara was brainsucked for your shiny-*whiney* energy ball sister and you said I can't make Glory pay. Next, Tara was killed with a bullet meant for you and you say I can't make the Nerds pay. It's like you wanted Tara dead" line. *That* would have resonance. It would be kick-ass seeing SMG's reaction to that. That would feel like Willow's story and no one else's. The fight that we got...didn't.

ubi4soft
03-12-11, 04:22 AM
I watched Dollhouse for Tahmoh Penikett. Being a Whedon show of course his character got killed. But I got my "revenge"
in Dollhouse:Epitaphs comics, Ballard's personality is soooo superspehul that turns Alpha into a good guy, similar to Angel being cursed with a soul, probably similar with the future story of Angel getting a Giles transplant personality
*ducks and run

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 04:42 AM
Err, no. People get aroused by all sorts of stuff. Like touching the right place on the body. Or heck, sometimes the hormone level is enough to make you physically aroused. And I believe that by your definition, the absolute majority of people would be bi. I think that most people can at least appreciate the attractiveness of people of both sexes, even if they have no desire to have sex with them. Many gay people tried heterosexual relationships at some point before they came out, many are closeted gay people and have marriages and kids and all, which was the case with most gay people in the past.

Your view seems as extreme as the one that nobody is bisexual and that everyone is either straight or gay.

Also, there was no need for a spoiler tag. :lol:


It's not like it can't be both.

Hmmm maybe I wasn't saying my view right? Man this is getting kinda awkward for me but let me try to explain it to the best of my ability. The reason humans mate is due to sexual attraction. Attraction is brought on by visual appeal, that's what starts any sexual relationship. Cause you have to see them in order to know them and thus date them ( or mate with them). Arousal is sparked by phermones/testosterone released by the opposite member. They get aroused they mate. It's no different than straight people.
The reason they tried a heterosexual relationship is because they are capable of being aroused by both Phermones and Testosterone. Now they can choose to ignore whichever one they want but they are still attracted to the scent. That makes them bi. If you have sex with both genders that makes you bi cause otherwise you wouldn't have had sex with them in the first place if you weren't turned on by the opposite person's smell. I really shouldn't call it smell but it's the breathing in through the nostrils of phermone/testosterone that activates the hypothalamus.

40) ChaddyMan shouldn't get into heavy stuff debates.

Dipstick
03-12-11, 05:43 AM
In the Wishverse do they say that Xander and Willow were part of the whitehats? Cause I don't remember that and the sad thing is the season 3 boxset is the only one I bought :lol: I can't believe I missed that. Do they say that Willow and Xander were an item before they were turned?

No, they never say anything about Willow and Xander being part of the White Hats before they were turned or a couple before they were turned.

My head-canon is that Willow was sired very early on in the Master's incursion. Possibly by the Master, himself. Then, naturally she sired Xander to be with her first thing after being turned. Vamp Willow made it very clear that she was making him "young and strong forever and ever" to be with her but Vamp Xander didn't need too much convincing to start getting sexual with her with both of their inhibitions removed- Willow's shyness and Xander's fear of hurting her. Vamp Xander remembered his human loyalty to Jesse and sired him expecting to paint the town red as the original Three Musketeers. Unfortunately, the newly formed White Hats made Jesse one of their first stakings because that's just Jesse's fate. ;-)

However, there is a resonance to Willow and Xander surviving as humans a little longer and getting to spend some time being White Hats to make their taunting of Giles and Oz's staking of Willow have more bite. <bad pun> However the fact that they seemed very high up in the Master's court and more specifically, the fact that Willow was taken by the Master's vampires in WTTH makes me want to say that it happened earlier. Yeah, maybe Willow wouldn't have been in danger in WTTH if she wasn't taking Buffy's advice to carpe diem but I could see Willow getting suckered into the tender flirtations of a vampire that dresses just as awfully as she does even if Buffy wasn't there to speed it along. ;-) Plus both Willow and Xander make *awesome* vampires. Not putting them on the "team" ASAP just seems like bad staffwork on the Master's part.

Now, I'm never clear on when Angel became the Puppy. At first, I assumed that he just got off his ass without Buffy there to fight in the big battle against the Master in The Harvest but failed. However, he does look a little spry with only "sexy wounds" to have endured that treatment for over three years. Although if I had Angel as my sexual plaything, I wouldn't want to ugly up the fiiiine goods with excessive use of Holy Water either.

Still, most importantly, I kind of only see Giles as equipped enough to put the town's history into perspective and figure out who the Master was and his plans to feed off of people through his servant to get out of his prison. Giles also had information to start him off about Darla and Luke talking about "offerings" to the Master. Don't see S1 Angel putting that all together or having that information. Maybe he mounted an offense later. I don't know though.

zianna
03-12-11, 07:13 AM
Hmmm maybe I wasn't saying my view right? Man this is getting kinda awkward for me but let me try to explain it to the best of my ability. The reason humans mate is due to sexual attraction. Attraction is brought on by visual appeal, that's what starts any sexual relationship. Cause you have to see them in order to know them and thus date them ( or mate with them). Arousal is sparked by phermones/testosterone released by the opposite member. They get aroused they mate. It's no different than straight people.
The reason they tried a heterosexual relationship is because they are capable of being aroused by both Phermones and Testosterone. Now they can choose to ignore whichever one they want but they are still attracted to the scent. That makes them bi. If you have sex with both genders that makes you bi cause otherwise you wouldn't have had sex with them in the first place if you weren't turned on by the opposite person's smell. I really shouldn't call it smell but it's the breathing in through the nostrils of phermone/testosterone that activates the hypothalamus.


If that was true, then no man would be able to rape another man if hte one getting raped wasn't gay or bi. And no woman would be able to rape a gay man.
On the other hand, same thing applies to women. No man would be able to arouse a woman without her willingness if she isn't straight and no woman would be able to arouse another woman if the second one is not gay or bi.
I am not saying that whatever you say about smell is wrong. I just want to add that you specifically forget about the other senses which play major parts, see, feel, touch even hear. Anybody can be aroused and at the same time not want to have sex with that person.

They say that people who suffer from anosmia have less of sex drive, but nobody has ever said that someone who suffers from anosmia can't get aroused or even enjoy sex.

KingofCretins
03-12-11, 08:11 AM
Methinks the ideas of sexual preference and sexual consent are being treated as interchangeable at some point in this discussion, and... no.

I will add my own unpopular opinion to those who liked Xander and Willow that Joss could have gotten them together as a couple believably in Season 8, purely from a storytelling standpoint. Unpopular opinion also that he'd have taken so much heat for it that it would never have been worth it.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 06:27 PM
Methinks the ideas of sexual preference and sexual consent are being treated as interchangeable at some point in this discussion, and... no.

I will add my own unpopular opinion to those who liked Xander and Willow that Joss could have gotten them together as a couple believably in Season 8, purely from a storytelling standpoint. Unpopular opinion also that he'd have taken so much heat for it that it would never have been worth it.

Yeah think I'll stop doing this debate just because of that. This heavy subject stuff just isn't for me, makes me uncomfortable.

Yeah they could have. I've read some great non canon stuff about it happening! I forget what it was called though. Maybe Walk About? meh

Dipstick
03-12-11, 07:05 PM
Yeah, which is why Willow is more convincingly lesbian in the comics than on TV.

Willow's big comics love is an icky looking snake. (Yeah, I don't care that Buffy called her "sexy". Saga is repulsive.) I don't know *what* Willow is sexuality-wise.

And everyone should count that as a pro-lesbian (because human women are beautiful) and anti-bestiality position.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 07:15 PM
Willow's big comics love is an icky looking snake. (Yeah, I don't care that Buffy called her "sexy". Saga is repulsive.) I don't know *what* Willow is sexuality-wise.

And everyone should count that as a pro-lesbian (because human women are beautiful) and anti-bestiality position.

Saga reminded me of that snake lady from Golden Child Which creeped me out to no end. What is she anyways? Is she a Naga or Lamia? I think the snake lady from Golden Child was a Naga

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 07:19 PM
No, they never say anything about Willow and Xander being part of the White Hats before they were turned or a couple before they were turned.

My head-canon is that Willow was sired very early on in the Master's incursion. Possibly by the Master, himself. Then, naturally she sired Xander to be with her first thing after being turned. Vamp Willow made it very clear that she was making him "young and strong forever and ever" to be with her but Vamp Xander didn't need too much convincing to start getting sexual with her with both of their inhibitions removed- Willow's shyness and Xander's fear of hurting her. Vamp Xander remembered his human loyalty to Jesse and sired him expecting to paint the town red as the original Three Musketeers. Unfortunately, the newly formed White Hats made Jesse one of their first stakings because that's just Jesse's fate. ;-)

However, there is a resonance to Willow and Xander surviving as humans a little longer and getting to spend some time being White Hats to make their taunting of Giles and Oz's staking of Willow have more bite. <bad pun> However the fact that they seemed very high up in the Master's court and more specifically, the fact that Willow was taken by the Master's vampires in WTTH makes me want to say that it happened earlier. Yeah, maybe Willow wouldn't have been in danger in WTTH if she wasn't taking Buffy's advice to carpe diem but I could see Willow getting suckered into the tender flirtations of a vampire that dresses just as awfully as she does even if Buffy wasn't there to speed it along. ;-) Plus both Willow and Xander make *awesome* vampires. Not putting them on the "team" ASAP just seems like bad staffwork on the Master's part.

Now, I'm never clear on when Angel became the Puppy. At first, I assumed that he just got off his ass without Buffy there to fight in the big battle against the Master in The Harvest but failed. However, he does look a little spry with only "sexy wounds" to have endured that treatment for over three years. Although if I had Angel as my sexual plaything, I wouldn't want to ugly up the fiiiine goods with excessive use of Holy Water either.

Still, most importantly, I kind of only see Giles as equipped enough to put the town's history into perspective and figure out who the Master was and his plans to feed off of people through his servant to get out of his prison. Giles also had information to start him off about Darla and Luke talking about "offerings" to the Master. Don't see S1 Angel putting that all together or having that information. Maybe he mounted an offense later. I don't know though.

I hated seeing Xander in leather! That's like the first giveaway that something was wrong with them :lol: (jk) He should have looked like what Spike looked like in Doomed :lol: Pale as hell and in colorful clothing :D

Lyri
03-12-11, 07:26 PM
The fist time I saw Saga, the first thought that entered my head a Naga. And for some reason, I keep thinking that the first time I ever came across the idea of a Naga was in one of the BtVS novels. But I can't remember which one.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 07:29 PM
The fist time I saw Saga, the first thought that entered my head a Naga. And for some reason, I keep thinking that the first time I ever came across the idea of a Naga was in one of the BtVS novels. But I can't remember which one.

Was the thing in Reptile Boy a Naga? Are there Male Nagas? I always thought they were female. The reason I mention Reptile Boy is cause that might be what you are thing of?

Lyri
03-12-11, 07:33 PM
Was the thing in Reptile Boy a Naga? Are there Male Nagas? I always thought they were female. The reason I mention Reptile Boy is cause that might be what you are thing of?

No, it was definitely a book, I just don't know if it was a BtVS one or not. I have a scene in my head about a rock, lol.

Ooh, wait, maybe it was one of the Anita Blake books? I'm gonna scour Wiki. I'll be back, lol.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 08:53 PM
No, it was definitely a book, I just don't know if it was a BtVS one or not. I have a scene in my head about a rock, lol.

Ooh, wait, maybe it was one of the Anita Blake books? I'm gonna scour Wiki. I'll be back, lol.

No luck yet Lyri?

41) The scoobies early on should have been trained to fight monsters. Also maybe a utility belt :lol:

42) Twilight and Buffy should have had all the powers of Superman and not just the normal F.I.S.S abilities.

43) I did not like the stuttering that Tara did early on. Maybe it's just that I think she was overselling it.

Lyri
03-12-11, 09:04 PM
No luck yet Lyri?



Yep, it was Anita Blake: Circus of the Damned. Although, she's a lamia, described as 'like a naga', lol.


Melanie

A lamia capable of turning her legs into a serpent's tail, Melanie is apparently a true immortal and does not appear to be killable by any means. She has retractable fangs in her mouth and is venomous. Melanie can turn willing men into snake people, her "harem" of potential mates. She first appears as a member of Mr. Oliver's retinue, but ultimately gets a job as a member of Jean-Claude's circus troupe, performing at The Circus of the Damned. Technically not a were but a mythological creature similar to nagas.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 09:08 PM
Yep, it was Anita Blake: Circus of the Damned. Although, she's a lamia, described as 'like a naga', lol.

Ha! that's great. Anita Blake's world wants it both ways :lol: Unless her world is one those fantasy kitchen sink ones, in which case Nagas and Lamias hangout :lol:

Lyri
03-12-11, 09:11 PM
Ha! that's great. Anita Blake's world wants it both ways :lol: Unless her world is one those fantasy kitchen sink ones, in which case Nagas and Lamias hangout :lol:

Her world gets more and more confusing and X-Rated the more I read. I think I gave up a while back, lol.

ChaddyMan1
03-12-11, 10:29 PM
Her world gets more and more confusing and X-Rated the more I read. I think I gave up a while back, lol.

I believe there are comic books of Anita Blake, did you happen to read those?

44) I hate confusing mythology! Structure and Order are the way to go.

45) I hated the move from WB to UPN.

46) I hated the fact that the WB called The Gift the Series Finale.

47) Buffy should have went on for 3 more years on television.

48) The First Evil felt like an Anti Climatic Boss.

49) The fact that no one from Buffy except James Marsters and Tom Lenk reprised their roles disappointed me greatly.

50) Season 8 should have happened in real time.

Sosa lola
15-12-11, 01:19 PM
I find myself more interested discussing and reading essays and fics about the later seasons, but when rewatching the show I have more fun watching the earlier seasons.

I've decided to show my students a Buffy episode in class so that we can discuss it, so I grabbed my S1 and S2 DVDs because I thought they'd appeal to kids more than the later seasons. I ended up watching all of S1 and right now I'm in Innocent in S2 and I'm in total enjoy-mode! Seriously, I'm having so much fun! I've rewatched S7 a while ago, mostly for writing a S7 fic so it was like studying and I have to be honest I didn't enjoy it.

There's something about S1 and S2 that's so appealing. The characters are young and fresh! There are so many wonderful Buffy, Xander and Willow moments! Teasing Giles and him teasing them back! Xander and Willow's closeness! Buffy and Willow's girlfriendness! Buffy and Xander's witty banter and glancing at each other whenever Cordelia said something shallow. I miss this! We don't get this in the later seasons. And I say this as a big fan of the later seasons.

ChaddyMan1
15-12-11, 03:26 PM
I find myself more interested discussing and reading essays and fics about the later seasons, but when rewatching the show I have more fun watching the earlier seasons.

I've decided to show my students a Buffy episode in class so that we can discuss it, so I grabbed my S1 and S2 DVDs because I thought they'd appeal to kids more than the later seasons. I ended up watching all of S1 and right now I'm in Innocent in S2 and I'm in total enjoy-mode! Seriously, I'm having so much fun! I've rewatched S7 a while ago, mostly for writing a S7 fic so it was like studying and I have to be honest I didn't enjoy it.

There's something about S1 and S2 that's so appealing. The characters are young and fresh! There are so many wonderful Buffy, Xander and Willow moments! Teasing Giles and him teasing them back! Xander and Willow's closeness! Buffy and Willow's girlfriendness! Buffy and Xander's witty banter and glancing at each other whenever Cordelia said something shallow. I miss this! We don't get this in the later seasons. And I say this as a big fan of the later seasons.

It's like a feeling of innocence. They lack cynicism, which is awesome from a hero for once. They're not thinking of the shit storm ahead.

Some of my favorite essays are found on I Need A Parrot. My most favorite one perhaps is Why Xander should have died at the end of season 3. It just so full of compliments for the character that I find appealing.

TimeTravellingBunny
17-12-11, 09:03 PM
The Buffy/Angel kiss in End of Days wasn't a sign of any kind of heat and great unbridled passion or whatever. It never looked that way. (I only say this because I've been recently reminded that there are people who treat it as such.)

I don't know if we were supposed to think of it as passionate in End of Days, but in Chosen, it's very anti-climatic - after they kiss, Buffy's attitude is like "OK, we did the kissing part, now let's talk" and they don't seem even tempted to repeat it for the rest of the conversation. This isn't at all like Surprise, when Buffy couldn't make herself leave Angel's place and go to school and was all "Oh... this is me... I forgot..." or in season 3 when they were kissing despite their better judgment, and it wasn't like season 6 when Buffy was panicking about how wrong it was kissing/having sex with Spike and she should stop but couldn't help it.

What the scene in EOD/Chosen reminds me of are the times when I kissed a guy on the spur of the moment, sometimes affected by the mood, alcohol and music, because I was more or less attracted to him (but not incredibly so) and he was clearly attracted to me and expected it and I thought "hey, maybe I should try this, maybe I'll be really into him and ignite passion and all", but while it was nice, after a few minutes of making out I got bored and stopped it and didn't feel like repeating it, and preferred to do something else like talk instead.

ChaddyMan1
19-12-11, 01:47 AM
The Buffy/Angel kiss in End of Days wasn't a sign of any kind of heat and great unbridled passion or whatever. It never looked that way. (I only say this because I've been recently reminded that there are people who treat it as such.)

I don't know if we were supposed to think of it as passionate in End of Days, but in Chosen, it's very anti-climatic - after they kiss, Buffy's attitude is like "OK, we did the kissing part, now let's talk" and they don't seem even tempted to repeat it for the rest of the conversation. This isn't at all like Surprise, when Buffy couldn't make herself leave Angel's place and go to school and was all "Oh... this is me... I forgot..." or in season 3 when they were kissing despite their better judgment, and it wasn't like season 6 when Buffy was panicking about how wrong it was kissing/having sex with Spike and she should stop but couldn't help it.

What the scene in EOD/Chosen reminds me of are the times when I kissed a guy on the spur of the moment, sometimes affected by the mood, alcohol and music, because I was more or less attracted to him (but not incredibly so) and he was clearly attracted to me and expected it and I thought "hey, maybe I should try this, maybe I'll be really into him and ignite passion and all", but while it was nice, after a few minutes of making out I got bored and stopped it and didn't feel like repeating it, and preferred to do something else like talk instead.

I couldn't agree more Bunny. I felt the same way but mostly because they hadn't shown romantic interest in forever! I mean my god do the writers still expect us to be interested in the pairing? It reminded of those scenes from movies where the hero swoops in, saves the day and kisses the girl! I hate that shit! It's so ****ing cliche!

51) Buffy says the most petty ****ing shit when calling out the rest of the scoobies in an arguement!

52) Night Hawk is a badass name! If it weren't, comic writers wouldn't have used it!

Dipstick
19-12-11, 01:52 AM
Nighthawk is totally badass! And I adore the Scoobies using walkie-talkies when slaying vampires in Dead Man's Party. They were unable to slay that particular vampires but it makes strategic sense for Xander to scope out a vamp as bait and communicate through walkie talkies for a surprise ambush from the other three Scoobies.

ChaddyMan1
19-12-11, 02:05 AM
Nighthawk is totally badass! And I adore the Scoobies using walkie-talkies when slaying vampires in Dead Man's Party. They were unable to slay that particular vampires but it makes strategic sense for Xander to scope out a vamp as bait and communicate through walkie talkies for a surprise ambush from the other three Scoobies.

I know! That's what's so awesome about that episode! Humans doing it for them damnselves (yes Oz too!) :lol: Considering Xander was still the lancer back then he was the best choice. The other scoobies should have had code names too, in fact...

53) Cordelia= Princess Power

54) Willow= Arcanna

55) Oz= Tom Thumb

56) Giles= Master Menace

I am assuming that Giles helped on occasion :D

mulliganstew
21-02-12, 11:14 PM
51) Buffy says the most petty ****ing shit when calling out the rest of the scoobies in an arguement!



Omg, doesn't she! It's like she knows full well she's in the wrong or is being selfish but she has no comeback to justify it, apart from singing the same "I'm the slayer. The slayer fights alone. Blah blah bloody blah blah." tune.

MikeB
27-04-12, 10:45 AM
* Spike and Drusilla are the most loving couple in the Buffyverse.

* Drusilla is the most powerful vampire in the Buffyverse.

* Other than Spike just being corporeal and Harmony just having fed from him, he should have beaten Angel relatively easily in "Destiny" (A 5.08). And that Angel beat him is further made a fluke by the fact that Illlyria didn't even make Spike bleed until she kicked him into a wall. Spike somehow took longer to heal from Angel's blows than he took to heal from Glory's torture.

* Of the males in the Buffyverse, Xander is probably the second best lover behind Spike.

* Spike never loved Buffy a fraction of a percent how much he loved Drusilla.

* If Buffy hadn't kissed Angel and gave Angel some hope for their future, Spike wouldn't have died in "Chosen" (7.22) and Buffy and Spike would have been together all the years after "Chosen".

* In ways, Angel loves Buffy more than Spike does.

* Buffy believed she could live to old age with Angel. She doesn't seem to believe that Spike would want to be with her when she's no longer 'hot'.

* Buffy knows that Angel's in love with her. She doesn't know -- and is insecure about -- Spike's feelings for her.

* If Spike had been nice to her in "Something Blue" (4.09) -- during the spell and otherwise -- and showed that he wanted to be her, Buffy would have gotten with Spike in "Something Blue".

* Buffy used Xander as her 'last-ditch' backup plan.

* Angel in ways in Season 1 and 2 was her backup plan.

* Buffy/Spike started in "School Hard" (2.03) and since "School Hard" Buffy seemed to think that Spike was into her and/or want Spike to be into her.

* Buffy/Spike wouldn't have ever happened had Drusilla not 'cheated' on Spike, had Spike not been chipped, had Drusilla shown up in Season 4, had Drusilla shown up before the end of "Out of My Mind" (5.04).

* Buffy was far more deeply in love with Spike than she ever was with Angel.

* Buffy in "Dead Things" (6.13) got the idea that Spike was only with her for the pleasures her body could give him. And that is mainly what the "I'm not your girl." "That's all it is to you, isn't it? Just another body." was about.

* After "Dead Things" (6.13), Buffy didn't seem to believe that Spike truly loved her until he gave her that speech in "Touched" (7.20).

* Angel objectively should have been killed in Season 3 or at least locked up until they could find a way to rid of the "perfect happiness clause". Or, taking as a given that Buffy can kill Angelus and that Willow could re-ensoul him, Angel should have never been allowed to leave Sunnydale.

* Adam was a great villain.

* The Initiative were important and made the idea of the Slayer more credible.

* Faith was more a 'geek fantasy' girl than Buffy. Buffy was into shopping, great looking guys, etc. Faith was into comic books, video games, etc.

There's probably more: those were at the top of my head.

Jack Shaftoe
27-04-12, 07:16 PM
If Buffy hadn't kissed Angel and gave Angel some hope for their future, Spike wouldn't have died in "Chosen" (7.22)

It's amazing how often you say things about Spike that even die-hard Spike haters wouldn't say.


Buffy/Spike started in "School Hard" (2.03) and since "School Hard" Buffy seemed to think that Spike was into her and/or want Spike to be into her.

Examples, please.


If Spike had been nice to her in "Something Blue" (4.09) -- during the spell and otherwise -- and showed that he wanted to be her, Buffy would have gotten with Spike in "Something Blue"

What exactly are you basing this on? At this point Buffy was actually tolerating Spike less than Giles, Willow and Xander were. She also wanted to have a "normal" boyfriend. And of course, Spike wasn't exactly in love with her either.


Faith was more a 'geek fantasy' girl than Buffy. Buffy was into shopping, great looking guys, etc. Faith was into comic books, video games, etc.

She was? I can't say I recall that, to be honest, but then again I hate Faith. In any case, Willow and Fred fit the "geek fantasy girl" stereotype far better than Faith, IMO.

Stoney
27-04-12, 07:22 PM
- Unpopular opinion for a Spuffy and a Spike fan: the AR scene was in character for both of them and a logical extension of what their relationship was like in season 6.


Can't understand how I've never seen this thread before. Of all the ones people have listed before this is one that I think is probably the most unpopular one that I totally agree with.

Other ones that I have, hard to gauge how unpopular my own thoughts are but perhaps...

- Angel is consistently (whether Angel or Angelus) a dark character. I hasten to say I like the character for this reason but he is very arrogant and can be vindictive.

- That people think there are two many 'possible' ships. Whether or not the writers intentionally put in scenes/lines that can be read 'that' way if you are looking for it, the possibility of most ships are there to keep everyone happy and in actual fact the vast majority are just not likely and would actually be out of character as a pairing choice for a character. People are allowed to just know each other without there being evidence that at some point they want to jump his/her male/female friends/acquaintances/person they once saw's bones!!!!

BuffySpike
07-05-12, 12:08 PM
This is going to be very unpopular with Bangel fans but, here's my opinion. This is based solely on the TV show as I have not read the comics, I believe that if the TV show was still going, the story would not be the same as in the comics because Spike would have never crossed over to Angel.

Anyway here they are:

- Spike is the one for Buffy and Buffy is the one for Spike I base this on some opinion and some on fact:

- Buffy felt more with Spike than she ever has with anyone else ever. This is conformed in the Wrecked shooting script where the writers quite clearly state that buffy feels this after the night of passion: " Last night. SO wrong. And SO completely, mind-numbingly wild. Everything she's needed. Escape. Release. Ecstasy. With Spike." Then when spike tells her that she wants him and that its like that because he's not gods gift(AKA Angel), again the writers comment on her thoughts and she knows he's right. Lastly when he tells her that she never had it as good as him, never, the writers fill in her thoughts by saying: "Buffy takes this in, shaken. It's true. She shakes him off."

- Buffy Loved spike in season 6 but this was deeply seeded and hidden behind denial and moral grounds. I say this because in season 7 She actually says out loud to the scoobies "Why does everyone assume I am STILL in love with Spike?" This goes totally over the scoobies heads and even her own and that is why no one really picks up on the line IMO. Its a huge revelation in the series because it would indicate that she has loved Spike for quite some time.

- That ending scene when their locked together hands burst into flame and she says "I love you" IMO symbolises that they are true soul mates.

- Buffy could never truly confide in Angel the way that she did with Spike on numerous occasions

- Buffy could never bring herself to kill Spike yet she killed Angel.

- Buffy always felt lower than Angel, she was always enthralled by him, he's unattainable, with Spike she is equal. He is attainable.

-Equality is the factor that brought those two together physically and eventually emotionally. The perfect sexual/love partner for Buffy is someone she can fight, and release herself with equally. Namely a vampire or another slayer (as i heard in the comics). Riley could never fulfil this need as a human and nor could Angel sexually. I firmly believe that if Spike could have physically fought Buffy in Fool for Love then they would have had sex then and there. Instead this happens in an echo of this theme in Smashed when he finally does become her equal again. The fact he can hurt her back now, that is the moment she decides to jump his bones for the first time. In Fool for Love She DOES feel his desire for a split second and is slightly enthralled by it as you can see on her face and this is somewhat conformed in the Shooting Script. But they cant "dance, fight, have sex" at this moment in time because he is not up to par with her in her eyes.

- Part of Buffy wanted to get bitten and devoured by Spike in Out of My Mind as a form of sexual release because she is not satisfied by Riley at all This was clear since episode 1 of season 5. She most certainly didn't struggle much as he was about to bite her. She is drawn to the darkness sexually even at this point. This continues into season 6.







After reading Gabrielleabelle's Unpopular Opinions (http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/348007.html) I decided I'm gonna list the unpopular opinions I agree with - not all of them, 'cause they're a lot. I'd also like to hear your unpopular opinions:

Unpopular Opinions I Agree With:

1) I think Buffy didn't think about Spike much at all prior to Crush. He just usually didn't cross her mind. Hence her puzzled, "Huh?" when Dawn tells her that Spike's in love with her.


You see thats why I'm confused because I'm almost certain she felt Spike's lust for her at the end for Fool for Love, she knew Spike wanted her big time then she suddenly forgets it until Crush?

I always kind of sensed that she did entertain the idea for a split second when Spike grabbed her but then came to her senses. I recently read the shooting script for this scene and it actually confirms that yes, she felt it for a second.



Spike loses himself. Grabs Buffy - and moves in to kiss her. He almost does, but Buffy jerks her head away - stunned.


BUFFY
Spike...
He holds his breath. Hope. She continues.


BUFFY
What the hell are you doing?!
SPIKE
(still holding her)
Come on. I can feel it, Slayer.
You know you want to dance.
Buffy locks eyes with him. Feels his intensity, his desire. A beat.


Maybe she just tried to suppress he moment and forget about it, or its a slight plot inconsistency.

Or maybe she knew he wanted to have sex with her but didn't love her.

TimeTravellingBunny
07-05-12, 02:05 PM
Maybe she just tried to suppress he moment and forget about it, or its a slight plot inconsistency.

Or maybe she knew he wanted to have sex with her but didn't love her.
She felt - to her surprise - that he wanted her sexually and was trying to seduce her - maybe she even thought it was another mind game - but wanting to have sex with her isn't the same as being in love with her. At this point she would've expected it more of the "the only thing better than killing a Slayer is ****ing one" (in season 6 she wasn't expecting to hear that - but it's an example how complicated Spike was at this point that he could be in love with her and still think along these lines).

BuffySpike
07-05-12, 07:07 PM
She felt - to her surprise - that he wanted her sexually and was trying to seduce her - maybe she even thought it was another mind game - but wanting to have sex with her isn't the same as being in love with her. At this point she would've expected it more of the "the only thing better than killing a Slayer is ****ing one" (in season 6 she wasn't expecting to hear that - but it's an example how complicated Spike was at this point that he could be in love with her and still think along these lines).

LOL I think the thought of him loving her grossed her out much more than him lusting after her.

I think you're right :) also thanks for the kind welcome. I can't figure out how to reply to the message hehe

TimeTravellingBunny
07-05-12, 09:09 PM
LOL I think the thought of him loving her grossed her out much more than him lusting after her.
I don't think she thought he was having any serious feelings about her - she was shocked when she learned in Crush that he was obsessed with her and had a mannequin and shrine to her.

But from Crush to Intervention, she refused to believe that what he felt for her was real love rather than a sick obsession that he thought of as love.


I think you're right :) also thanks for the kind welcome. I can't figure out how to reply to the message hehe
With profile posts, you just go to another person's profile and leave a post there.

Lostsoul666
07-05-12, 11:01 PM
Here's some of my unpopular Buffyverse opinions.

I think that Fred's a mary-sue especially in Season 5 of Angel.

I think that Anya's annoying, and I hate how the things she did as a vengeance demon are treated as a joke, and played up for laughs.

Drusilla
09-05-12, 08:35 PM
Here's some of my unpopular Buffyverse opinions.

I think that Fred's a mary-sue especially in Season 5 of Angel.

I think that Anya's annoying, and I hate how the things she did as a vengeance demon are treated as a joke, and played up for laughs.

Anya, I can agree with you about. She was very flat and irritating. Besides, it's not funny to talk about sex all the time (which is mainly what she did). After all she did as a vengeance demon, I could understand how useful her knowledge was, though. I have to give her some credit there.

lol...I hope this makes sense. I'm so tired right now XD

BuffySpike
09-05-12, 11:13 PM
- Tara is really boring.

MikeB
11-06-12, 10:03 AM
Currently at the top of page 9: This post is in responds to posts #1 through 160.

___________________

Buffy/Spike – which for me includes their relationship in “School Hard” (2.03) and after – has its own thread and so I’ll discuss it there. Also, I’m not going to respond to “I like” or “I don’t like”-type opinions.


* I don’t consider Buffy’s college dorm overly big. My rooms at LMU, USC, and UW weren’t tiny. I don’t even know what UC dorm rooms look like, but the dorm rooms I saw at Cal Poly Pomona’s were depressingly tiny to the point that I’d think it impossible to even study in them, so, in compared to that Buffy’s dorm was enormous.


* Joss Whedon – other than the Buffyverse as exists in the TV shows and comics – is the only arbiter of canon. Whatever Scott Allie, David Fury, David Greenwalt, Tim Minnear, Jane Espenson, SMG, James Marsters, etc. says are simply their opinions or whatever. Unless they are directly quoting Joss, what they say regarding canon doesn’t really matter.


* In AtS, Angel/Darla, Angel/Cordy, Cordy/Connor, Cordy getting the visions, Cordy becoming half-demon, Cordy becoming a higher power, etc. are likely because of Jasmine.


* Angelus in BtVS was simply someone that Buffy and Co. would have a hard time killing because of Buffy’s feelings for Angel. Other than that, he’s not scary, he’s not formidable, and he’s relatively a big p)ssy. He could have tried to kill her when he was in her bed and she was asleep but instead he stupidly draws a picture of her. Angel only had power because Spike was wheelchair-bound and Drusilla simply likes to have fun and therefore prefers that others make plans and decisions and such. But Angel was made even more pathetic in flashbacks on AtS. He’s portrayed as Darla’s pet. He with Darla ran away from a human for perhaps decades. Angelus in AtS s4 is also relatively pathetic.


* This was something I got from IM)b. Angel became stronger and more powerful because he drank from Buffy. In BtVS S1 and S2, he’s relatively very pathetic. In “Halloween” (2.06), solider Xander is able to get out of the grasp of the demons holding him and yet Angel isn’t. Angel was afraid to face the Master. Angel didn’t go with Buffy to face the Master. Xander was able to make Angel go down to the Master’s lair. Vampires like the Master, Spike, and Drusilla aren’t afraid of crosses. Angel being afraid of crosses and barely being able to stand after falling on crosses and putting his hand in Holy Water makes Angel relatively pathetic.


* When Groo came back in AtS, it would have been good to give Groo the visions and have Groo be the champion. Groo doesn’t turn evil and Cordy was simply doing things that were machinations for Jasmine to be born.


* When they happened, it was very insulting to make Cordy half-demon and seemingly more powerful than Buffy. And it was simply disgusting to make her a higher power while Buffy was just coming out of a grave and Willow had turned super-evil and tried to destroy the world. I was only placated in “Inside Out” (A 4.1?).


* About Angel not being able to kill Wesley after finding out that Wesley’s actions resulting in Holtz having Connor: the Mayor stopped trying to kill Buffy. What exactly is different? Angel can’t be fighting off orderlies and nurses and the like. And if Angel had killed Wesley, he’d be put up on murder charges. And Kate no longer being around, how was he possibly going to get off scot free?


* About the Scoobies forgiving Willow after “Grave” (6.22): Giles took her to England where Willow – and possibly the Scoobies – thought that he was going to kill her. What did happen was that she was in ‘rehab’ for 3.5-7 months. Giles’ intention was for Willow to use the magic – which was now a part of her – for good. Spike got the Judge together, Angel took the Judge out to play and later did the Acathla thing, Xander almost got married to Anya (who was a vengeance demon for 1160 years); so, unless they were acting like hypocrites, they couldn’t forever be angry with Willow. And they all assumed that Willow was the one who flayed that guy.


* The flashbacks of “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) make perfect sense. Angel and Spike aren’t the most badass and powerful people ever. It was implied that Angel had sex with others and that Spike had sex with others. It was implied that Angel and Spike expected Darla and Dru to remain faithful. But the Immortal was made out to be the Most Fantastic Beautiful Sexy Sexgod Man Ever and so both Darla and Dru slept with him. I found nothing bad in the episode outside of the implication that the Immortal was simply using Buffy to ‘get at’ Angel and Spike. Buffy was simply treated horribly on AtS and I’m really glad about what Joss did in BtVS S8 regarding Buffy/the Immortal.


* I consider that Spike wasn’t ‘fully good’ until AtS s5. Spike in BtVS S7 was mostly focused on Buffy and his relationship with Buffy. In AtS s5 and after, he’s mostly focused on doing good.


* In threads outside of the comics section, BtVS S8 spoiler stuff should be in spoiler mode.




Sosa lola


Riley wasn't threatened by Buffy's strength, whether that means her physical strength He was and he said so more than once.


I honestly don't find any of the main-cast characters on BtVS (and to a lesser extent AtS) ever unforgivable, you know? I always understand where they are coming from, and most of their actions seem a believable mixture of selfish, selfless, insight and delusion. I always feel a bit wishy washy as a result, but when I get into a character's POV it's really easy to understand why they do what they do. Same goes for most of the recurrings. Angel in BtVS S8 is unforgivable.



gregor


I don't think Willow is gay. Joss says she’s gay; so, she’s gay.



Nina


Ats [Angel] is rarely IC or interesting on BtVS How is post-BtVS S3 Angel not in character on BtVS in BtVS S4, 5, or 7?


Both Dawn and Connor never became real characters, they are still plotdevices. Dawn was real character in and after BtVS S5 and Connor was always a ‘real character’.

________________________________________________


Spike will b punished every second of his eternal life [since getting his soul back] because he has to live with his past, just like Angel. In BtVS S7, Spike felt bad about the attempted rape of Buffy, but once Buffy forgave him (or simply got past it), he was fine. He felt bad about his killing people while a Sleeper. But he very quickly got over that. In AtS s5, he feels bad in “Damage” (A 5.11), but after that, he seems fine. Spike is not punished by his soul and he’s not meant to be punished.

_______________________________________________


Also she seems pretty sane after fleeing to Prague, which takes place after he killed her whole family. In Prague she has to watch how Angelus kills all the other nuns and has sex with Darla, and while that's a good reason to be scared She was still in London. She was in London when Angel first saw her. Her family lived in London in a nice part of London. She was in Prague with Spike and got her mystical ‘illness’ there.

________________________________________________


I'm not a fan of the urge the writers had to make the characters better than your average person. You see the same in not so great fanfics. List with the universities the characters got accepted in; Buffy (Northwestern), Cordelia (Duke & Columbia), Fred (UCLA), Willow (any university), Oz (well he was one of the two best students of the school, also any university?), Connor (Any univerity, went to Stanford), Dawn (Berkeley), Giles (Oxford) and Wesley (Oxford). The characters I didn't list are often portrayed as intelligent and/or successful at a young age as well. Wesley even states that Angel is smarter than any other Ats character despite never going to school. Would you prefer that stupid people be charged with saving the world? The ‘average person’ has an IQ of little over 100. The ‘average person’ doesn’t’ know the names of the three branches of the US Government. I like that Joss’s shows show being smart, overall, is a good thing.


And a lot of the characters are ~special~. Buffy is said to be the greatest slayer of all time, Willow is the strongest witch and top of her class, Angel and Spike are the two most vicious vampires ever, Wesley was the greatest talent the COW ever had, Cordy was cheerleader captain, Fred was so good she got dumped in a hell dimension, Connor was top of his class and only child of vampires ever, Dawn was the key... even Nina, Angel's random girlfriend, was a special werewolf. For Buffy: why wouldn’t she be? Why should the show be about a below average Slayer who gets quickly killed and the series is over. Willow’s powers come from her needing to stay with Buffy and Co. instead of going off to Harvard or Oxford. Cordy being popular and hot is the whole point (she’s Buffy prior to Buffy being the Slayer). Agree about Connor. Darla wasn’t bright and Angel while well-read didn’t seem super intelligent either. Connor however was given new memories and so perhaps he was simply well educated to the point that he was able to go to Stanford.


Poor Gunn and Xander, I can't blame Gunn for being insecure in season 4/5. Xander was in the same classes as Willow, Buffy, and Cordy. He had a good vocabulary. He simply wasn’t as good at Math and such. And did he even study for the SAT?


Why is Connor besides being a ~special~ case and great warrior, also super good at school? We get it; he is in a good place now... but would he be in a bad place if he wasn't top of his class? Don't think so. That’s a political question. Getting into Stanford is better than not getting into any college.



TimeTravellingBunny


Yes, the show only becomes great in season 2, but still, season 1 was pretty good. It became better in Season 2, but Season 1 is also great and better than most TV shows – to about all TV shows – past and present.


Prophecy Girl is the show's first great episode. At latest, “The Witch” (1.03) was.


Everyone was in the wrong in Empty Places. Buffy's attitude was really unreasonable and she showed poor leadership skills there; "Do as I say just because I say it!" is not how you make people respect your authority. Buffy was reasonable and correct. Her being ‘the General’ means that the Scoobies simply should have respected her authority.


I quite liked Robin Wood I was fine with Robin Wood until “First Date” (7.14). Buffy dating a black guy seemed like simply a politically correct thing for the show to do. Buffy had removed Spike’s chip in “Get it Done” (7.13) and here she was – seemingly out of nowhere – going on a date with Wood. But other than that is that Spike is the most popular character in the ‘verse and Wood wanted to kill him because of something that Spike did that Buffy already knows about and doesn’t seem to mind (too much or at all). And then Wood seemed to believe that he could butter Buffy up to the point that she’d be fine with Wood killing Spike.


I don't think that seasons 1-3 ever portrayed Buffy/Angel as an ideal romance or soulmates (especially not season 2). It seemed to be portrayed as an ideal romance for her. “Soulmates” was never in the show. At-most Angel in AtS in “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) says that they have “a forever love”. Buffy does say something about their being together when she’s 50.


stormwreath: Buffy's feelings for Angel after Season 4: I think that saying she was "still in love with him" or that she had "completely moved on from him" are both inaccurate. Buffy knows that she can’t “be with” Angel because of Angel’s perfectly happiness clause. If Angel had showed up in Season 5 without having that clause, she would have likely dumped Riley and gotten with Angel. For whatever reason, in Season 6, she specifically seemed to want to be with Spike. For Season 7, who knows. But in “Chosen” (7.22), again, she couldn’t “be with” Angel and there was Spike’s First Evil connection and the complication of Spike vs. Angel if Angel joined the fight; still, it’s not a ‘real’ choosing of Spike over Angel because it’s not a ‘fair’ choice.


* How could Angel have stopped Drusilla and Darla from killing the lawyers? Saying he did the wrong thing implies that the right thing would have been to stop them which would mean that one considers that he could stop them.


spikesjojo: I don't think Buffy was the longest lived slayer as she is often called in fanfic. Nikki Wood had a 4 year old son, and I doubt she got pregnant at 14 or 15 (figure almost another year for pregnancy too). She looked well into her twenties when Spike first started stalking her. Buffy might have eventually become the longest lived slayer - much harder to do after the potentials were awakened - but she was not during BTVS. Well, this was only made canon in BtVS S9. Age of actor doesn’t mean age of character or Cordelia was very stupid and was held back like 10 years or more. :)


* I don’t consider that Riley was a healthier relationship for Buffy than Angel was. I do consider that Buffy loved Riley. And, it takes her the new school year or a few months for her to move on from Angel and start dating again. With Riley, it’s Spring Break when she first even attempts to ask someone to dance (this was around 2 months after Riley left).


blackfrancine: More season 4 talk: I like Kathy (Buffy's roomie in the first 2 episodes). If it weren't for the soul sucking Kathy just would've been a too-cheerful, neurotic, but ultimately nice person... er... demon. She only soul-sucked to keep from being taken back. SHE JUST WANTED TO GET AN EDUCATION. She's like a Tara precursor! Crap, I just realized that! She's hiding the fact that she's a demon, going to school away from home, and a domineering father-figure comes to reveal her demon-ness and to take her back. Headphones existed back then. And a fridge is for both roommates, not one. Also, “roommate” doesn’t mean “automatic best friend”. Kathy would be an intolerable roommate.


gabrielleabelle: After being pointed out the subtext, I can kinda see Faith having a thing for Buffy. It's not my preferred reading, but I can see where people are coming from.

But I can't in any way see Buffy as romantically or sexually or in any gay way interested in or curious about Faith. There's just nothing. No looks. No signs of interest. She's totally into Angel at this point. I don't get it. She can’t be with Angel. She dances with Faith in the Bronze. SMG and Eliza Dushku had obvious chemistry together and while Faith was the ‘aggressor’, Buffy did seem into Faith (whatever that meant). It’s not unrealistic if they did fool around.

________________________________________________


I always find it absurd when people say things like "I really liked Spike but then I started hated him when he tried to rape Buffy" when in fact he's done so much worse in the past and didn't feel guilty at all the time. But they thought he was a cool villain back then. He was relatively very nice to Drusilla. Relatively (at least at times), Spike treated Buffy worse than he treated Harmony. In BtVS S2 and BtVS S4, we would never suspect or assume that Spike would rape Dru or Harmony.


The whole "Spike is a rapist!" outcry is silly. Yes, of course he is, and so is Angel, in the past they both raped a lot of people, in addition to murdering a lot of people. We don’t know if Spike raped anyone. He told Buffy he did in order to goad her into killing him, but we never saw any flashbacks or any talk from Angel or anyone that Spike raped anyone.


The Master is very underrated; he was an excellent villain. He wouldn't have worked as a villain for too long, but for season 1, he worked perfectly. The Master is popular, which is why he’s brought back in Season 8 .


Now I want to show people season 1 or The Wish and make them understand the quickest way that BtVS is not Twilight. Who thinks that BtVS is like Twilight ?

_______________________________________________


Dru is not an eternal victim that needs to be put out of her misery. Who thinks this? Dru is a popular character.


What Angel(us) did to her was horrible, but she is not miserable and forever suffering as Angel(us) hoped she would be, I’m not sure Angel actually wanted that. Angel was making himself a new eternal lover. I consider that Angel was in love with Dru.


If a soul was forced upon her, she would be incredibly unhappy and tortured, We don’t know this. We don’t even know if that part in Spike is canon .



vampmogs


Spike was no more “under Buffy’s wing” or suffocated by her character than Cordy was with Angel. The only reason people find it more noticeable with Spike (and make comments about him being whipped/emasculated) is because they’re not used to seeing a male in this position. They saw Spike/Drusilla and they saw Angel/Darla. To be fair though, Cordy was Angel’s link to the Powers That Be. And she kept those visions for herself because they made her important and useful.


Wesley is a totally unsympathetic character in AtS S3. I’ve tried so, so hard to see the situation from his POV but I just can’t feel badly for him. It was because of his sheer arrogance that things turned out as badly as they did and Angel had every right to hate him. Everyone believed that Angel’s child was likely evil and bad for the world. Then once Angel sees that it’s humanoid, Angel simply decides that he wants to keep it. Gunn points out that the child could be a bad thing and Angel simply responds with something like, “So what should we do? Kill my child?” None of them knew that Connor was actually good and not an apocalyptic threat. Angel simply decided that he wanted to keep the child and that was that. When Wesley sees the prophecy, the rest of the gang are pro-Connor for whatever reason (maybe Angel being their boss and providing their livelihoods has a lot to do with it) and so Wesley believes that he can’t talk to them about it. And then he goes out of his way to seek out information and discovers that the prophecy is true. And Holtz isn’t a bad guy. He’s a guy who wants revenge for what Angel did to Holtz’s family and a guy that saw that Angel was still with Darla. And Wesley intended to keep the child himself, not give it to Holtz. So, I side with Wes. Relatively, he seems more rational and agonized more over the decision than Giles does when he tells Buffy that the Scoobies need to kill Dawn.


I think Buffy acted very understandably in Sanctuary and I don't think her portrayal was unfair to the character at all. It was unfair because those AtS viewers that hadn’t seen BtVS – which was most of the viewers – would simply view her as a raving bi)ch who was only after Faith because…? BtVS viewers knew where Buffy was coming from. AtS viewers only knew Faith as this cool hot sexy chick who was more fun than Buffy. They weren’t told what Faith had done in BtVS S3 or in BtVS S4. It would seem that Buffy was there to kill her simply because Faith slept with Buffy’s new boyfriend and Buffy was jealous of Faith because of Faith being cooler than Buffy. The other crossover characters to AtS were treated well: Spike, Oz, Faith, Willow, Andrew. Buffy was treated horribly. “I Will Remember You” (A 1.08) is simply an episode of Buffy and Angel being lovey dovey and having sex – that Buffy doesn’t remember because Angel made the decision to take the day back because his fighting vampires and demons is more important to him than being with Buffy. And, other than that – again, most AtS viewers weren’t BtVS viewers – Buffy in the episode simply seems to be being mean to him. ‘Stop stopping by and I’ll forget you and therefore move on.’

_________________________________________________


Speaking of Dollhouse;

- It's the most ambitious show Joss has ever done In terms of what? I find BtVS and Firefly more ambitious.


If it had been made for Showtime, FX, or HBO, it would still be on the air now. And it'd be an even better show for it. Dollhouse was a smart show. Shows on Showtime, FX, and HBO can be good shows, but I don’t remember any show I’ve watched from them being a smart show. Eliza Dushku and Joss Whedon got the ratings. And neither was going to have Eliza being naked on the show.



Dipstick


I don't think that Willow gets anymore of a free pass than Buffy or Xander except for the Dark Willow eps at the end of S6. Plus if we're going to compare Something Blue and Dead Man's Party, I could see why people are quicker to forgive Willow when she unambiguously apologizes, calling her unintended consequences evil, with the provision of cookies and free auto care than Buffy, who despite good intentions, does let things fester in DMP and then fights back out of frustration before really getting to the apology stage ("Wanna talk stupid, Nighthawk?"). The difference is that Willow was warned not to try magic in such an emotional state. And that Willow was doing magic simply to get her ‘dumped feelings’ to go away. That’s simply not at-all healthy. Buffy was kicked out of school, kicked out of her house, she had to send cursed Angel to a hell dimension where he’ll suffer forever, and she’s a fugitive wanted for the murder of her former fellow Slayer (who was killed by Drusilla, who was the main reason Spike made a deal with Buffy) and for resisting arrest and the assault and battery of a police officer.


That said, I think that Bangel is dead after the Twilight. Most probably don’t even know about Twilight. Among the general public, Buffy/Angel still is probably pretty much like Lois and Clark, Mary Jane and Peter Parker, etc. Fans of the Buffyverse may now lean toward Buffy/Spike, Joss seems to lean toward Buffy/Spike, but if a movie is ever made? I still think Buffy/Angel is more likely than Buffy/Spike because that’s what the general public knows about.

______________________________________________


I find it unfathomable that Fred and Gunn wouldn't treat Angel differently knowing that their friend is capable of suffocating of suffocating Wesley in his hospital bed. They were getting paid by Angel.

______________________________________________


I strongly feel that Willow and Tara were paying rent. Their paying rent is never mentioned and very soon after Buffy is back from the dead, she had an intervention that included Willow telling her that Buffy needed to get a job to pay the bills.


It's unfathomable that Buffy was supporting herself and Dawn and arguably buying groceries and paying utilities that Willow and Tara used all from shifts at the Doublemeat. I reason that she still had credit cards and that her father was paying those credit card bills. Hank Summers would have – or should have – been paying child support for Dawn. Or given Dawn had a social worker, perhaps Dawn was made a foster child or whatever and Buffy was getting money from that. But in terms of clothing and the like, Hank was probably paying that stuff. Buffy’s job money probably simply went to taxes and utilities or food or whatever.


Between having parents that seemed affluent and universities better than UC Sunnydale pitching woo at Willow, Willow had to be in a comfortable financial position and I really don't see her rejecting any allowance from her disliked parents or a scholarship-paid dorm room to mooch off of Buffy. Harvard, Yale, Stanford – etc. – at the time would have given Willow full financial aid. It’s possible she was paying more at UC Sunnydale than she would have had she gone to Harvard or Yale.


I don't know how Tara was paying her expenses but her pride in her newfound independence is such a fundamental part of her character that I don't see Buffy paying her way for any time period as well. Tara’s finances are simply a mystery. She was somehow paying for college; she gets a nice apartment after moving out of the Summer’s house. Her family didn’t seem moneyed and Tara disowning them likely would have resulted in them ‘cutting her off’.


With that in mind the only way to logically account for the Potentials using tons of utilities and eating lots of food in Buffy's house, is to assume that the Core Four (as those capable and full of motive to pay) were chipping in. As the only person of means who is generous, I have to believe that Giles was paying a ton to support the mini-army and his name should be on a plaque somewhere. The Council could have given money at this time. Also though, Xander could have been a multi-millionaire at this time. Giles could have stolen money and BtVS S8 makes canon that apparently Giles was worth tens of millions of dollars , so, it wouldn’t be a big financial hit if Giles paid for clothing and the like for the Potentials.


Still, I sorta wish that Buffy forced a salary out of the Council of Watchers when she had them by the balls in Checkpoint. At the time, Joyce was still alive and Buffy was at least upper middle class. Buffy didn’t even know that Giles was wealthy and could have assumed that, without his Council salary, he’d been relatively struggling.


Cordelia should be compensated for all of the wonderful work that she did in LA but I do think that a lot was lost from her character when she gave up her ambitions of acting and then never scaled down to go to college or find some normal job in LA but instead entirely supported herself from Angel Investigations. She really cosigned herself away from succeeding on an ordinary level and that's tragic beyond belief. Cordy’s wardrobe became pretty much as good as Buffy’s. Either guys she dated were giving her a ton of money, or Angel was giving her a ton of money. Cordy is a terrible actress and didn’t really have marketable skills that could have gotten her more money than Angel was giving her. Someone like Wesley could have gone to law school and become a lawyer or something like that.


Again, Faith should have been paid by the Council as a Slayer but I don't think that Joyce/Buffy/Giles/Wesley/other members of the gang failed her by lifting her out of the motel of S3 and forcing her to live with them all middle-class like. Faith had a roof over her head and money to pay for food and copious amounts of leather. She was old enough to legally drop out than she's old enough to make decisions about her life. For the Summers’ household, Joyce didn’t make that step to have Faith living with Buffy. Also, legally, maybe Joyce would have had to adopt Faith or whatever in order for Faith to be able to live with Buffy.

Wesley after being fired from the Council – and seeming to be ‘cut off’ from his father – seems to be broke. So, Wesley couldn’t have housed her. Wesley himself was living in like an at-most 3-star hotel or motel.

Given what we learn of Giles’s wealth in BtVS S8, it seems Giles could have easily got an apartment for Faith.



ChaddyMan1


The grand finale for Buffy should have been 2 hours! [quote] This isn’t an unpopular opinion.

_______________________________________________

[quote] Every character on Angel except Cordelia, Gunn, Lorne need a therapist! Huh? Cordy’s parents are perhaps both in jail. Cordy gets visions and her livelihood depends on working for Angel and risking her life all the time. Gunn instead of going to college is forced to help his fellow homeless people fight demons. His sister became a vampire and he staked her. Lorne’s family doesn’t like him and his home dimension – for him – is completely terrible.

_______________________________________________


Xander needs to try for a college too or at least a community college. Taking some business courses could help. Taking a Quicken class may help. But Xander by BtVS S7 was already doing things like building the new Sunnydale High School and the new Sunnydale Library. Other than developing new housing communities or building skyscrapers, how much farther up can he go?



Osiris1803


I found Joss's reuse of actors for various roles rather annoying. Recycling just looks like laziness to me. I consider it loyalty. Also, good talent for a small price isn’t exactly super duper abundant. Adam Baldwin was great in both roles. Gina Torres worked for AtS and she was great in Firefly . Summer Glau was great in both roles. The guys who played Holden and Knox, Kralick and Rack, DeHoffryn and that doctor guy were great.

TimeTravellingBunny
11-06-12, 02:51 PM
* When Groo came back in AtS, it would have been good to give Groo the visions and have Groo be the champion. Groo doesn’t turn evil and Cordy was simply doing things that were machinations for Jasmine to be born.In my opinion, Groo was completely out of place on AtS and was the worst character on the show with the exception of the Italian W&H woman from The Girl In Question. I couldn't take him seriously at all, he seemed to be a mix between a reject from a really bad swords & sandals C-movie and a member of Manowar. (http://images.wikia.com/lyricwiki/images/1/15/Manowar_-_Anthology.jpg)



* When they happened, it was very insulting to make Cordy half-demon and seemingly more powerful than Buffy. And it was simply disgusting to make her a higher power while Buffy was just coming out of a grave and Willow had turned super-evil and tried to destroy the world. I was only placated in “Inside Out” (A 4.1?).
It didn't make sense - but that's actually one of the things on the show that explicitly was engineered by Jasmine, and Cordy paid a huge price for it.


* About Angel not being able to kill Wesley after finding out that Wesley’s actions resulting in Holtz having Connor: the Mayor stopped trying to kill Buffy. What exactly is different? Angel can’t be fighting off orderlies and nurses and the like. And if Angel had killed Wesley, he’d be put up on murder charges. And Kate no longer being around, how was he possibly going to get off scot free?
Are you saying that Kate would have been able (and willing) to get off Angel free for murder? :blink:



* The flashbacks of “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) make perfect sense. Angel and Spike aren’t the most badass and powerful people ever. It was implied that Angel had sex with others and that Spike had sex with others. It was implied that Angel and Spike expected Darla and Dru to remain faithful. But the Immortal was made out to be the Most Fantastic Beautiful Sexy Sexgod Man Ever and so both Darla and Dru slept with him.
:roll: In other words, the most ridiculous Gary Stu ever.

Nobody is or can be "the Most Fantastic Beautiful Sexy Sexgod Ever". There's this thing called taste - and people have different tastes in beauty, sex appeal or charm/charisma. What's appealing to one woman won't necessarily be appealing to another. There's also sexual compatibility and sexual preferences (which is not limited just to gender preference). People are different in that way, too. And finally, attraction, love & relationships are about a lot of things, but they are not a competition between men for for the Coolest, Sexiest Guy Ever where he 'wins' every woman simply by scoring highest and proving to be the most superior man who gets all the womenz.


* I consider that Spike wasn’t ‘fully good’ until AtS s5. Spike in BtVS S7 was mostly focused on Buffy and his relationship with Buffy. In AtS s5 and after, he’s mostly focused on doing good.
He's focused on doing good and on what kind of person he wants to be in BtVS season 7 as well. Sure he's also focused on his relationship with Buffy, but a large part of that is having Buffy as an inspiration and cherishing Buffy's faith that he can be a better man. It sure isn't primarily about trying to have a relationship with Buffy, or else he wouldn't have chosen to stay and burn in the Hellmouth instead of leaving with her.

If you're gonna write off S7 Spike with "he's focused on his relationship with Buffy", then you may as well write off AtS S5 Spike with "he's focused on his relationship/rivalry/friendship with Angel".



She was still in London. She was in London when Angel first saw her. Her family lived in London in a nice part of London.
Where did you see that it was a "nice" part of London?


Buffy was reasonable and correct. Her being ‘the General’ means that the Scoobies simply should have respected her authority.
No, it doesn't. She's a self-appointed general, they are not a military, and they never took oath to listen to her orders. She's not some perfect godlike person who knows everything and never makes mistakes, and she should be able to justify her decisions and inspire confidence and loyalty with her leadership skills and confidence, not pulling the authoritarian "You must all do what I say!" card. Buffy wasn't the dictator-style leader before, but in S7 she went about things the wrong way and didn't know how to connect to the Potentials, and after Dirty Girls she had lost confidence in herself. Her leadership skills in Empty Places sucked big time and she alienated people around her. Fortunately she got back her strength and faith in herself and her people skills and leadership skills were much improved in End of Days/Chosen.


I was fine with Robin Wood until “First Date” (7.14). Buffy dating a black guy seemed like simply a politically correct thing for the show to do.
:rolling:


Buffy had removed Spike’s chip in “Get it Done” (7.13) and here she was – seemingly out of nowhere – going on a date with Wood.
Out of nowhere? They were flirting since the beginning of the season.


But other than that is that Spike is the most popular character in the ‘verse and Wood wanted to kill him because of something that Spike did that Buffy already knows about and doesn’t seem to mind (too much or at all). And then Wood seemed to believe that he could butter Buffy up to the point that she’d be fine with Wood killing Spike.

So Wood was a bad guy for trying to kill a popular character? :lol: and why should Wood care if Buffy was upset or not about Spike killing Wood's mother?


It seemed to be portrayed as an ideal romance for her. Tell me a single instance when the Buffy/Angel relationship seemed to anywhere near something one could call a perfect relationship. At best, it was somewhat functional (Halloween to Surprise) but even then, Angel kept secrets from Buffy. And it was explicitly treated as a Bad Boyfriend relationship in Beauty and the Beasts.


At-most Angel in AtS in “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) says that they have “a forever love”. Buffy does say something about their being together when she’s 50.

Angel's line in TGIQ was written and acted as comic/parodic - it's not from BtVS, and TGIQ was mocking Bangel and Spuffy. I don't remember Buffy saying anything about them being together when she's 50, could you find a quote? And even if she did, it would just mean that she dreamed about them being together again. Buffy and Angel might have believed their love was going to be forever - just like people, especially teenagers, tend to think when they first fall in love - but when they did have a relationship, it was mostly angsty and dysfunctional and not particularly happy.


Buffy knows that she can’t “be with” Angel because of Angel’s perfectly happiness clause. If Angel had showed up in Season 5 without having that clause, she would have likely dumped Riley and gotten with Angel.
You don't know that. Hypothetical "if" arguments don't prove anything, they aren't real arguments but speculation.


But in “Chosen” (7.22), again, she couldn’t “be with” Angel
Her conversation with Angel doesn't suggest that. They are both acting as if the only impediment to them being together is that Buffy isn't "cookie dough" and isn't ready to have relationship at all, much less commit to someone specific.

and there was Spike’s First Evil connection and the complication of Spike vs. Angel if Angel joined the fight; still, it’s not a ‘real’ choosing of Spike over Angel because it’s not a ‘fair’ choice.
What First Evil connection? It ended in LMPTM when Spike disabled the trigger, and the FE didn't have any power over him anymore. It's a completely fair choice. Nothing and nobody was forcing her to have Spike instead of Angel in the fight (Spike had no more connection to the Potentials and the Scoobies than Angel did, less connection to Faith than Angel did, and his connection to Wood was only negative) let alone to spend her nights cuddling with Spike instead of Angel. (She spent much of season 3 making out with Angel, and he didn't lose his soul.)


* How could Angel have stopped Drusilla and Darla from killing the lawyers? Saying he did the wrong thing implies that the right thing would have been to stop them which would mean that one considers that he could stop them.
Eh?! How about same way he tried to stop them earlier in that episode, or the way he stopped them in Redefinition. Of course he could have tried to save as many lawyers he could, if he had wanted to. Instead, he proclaimed he didn't care and locked the lawyers so Darla and Dru could kill them all.


She can’t be with Angel. She dances with Faith in the Bronze. SMG and Eliza Dushku had obvious chemistry together and while Faith was the ‘aggressor’, Buffy did seem into Faith (whatever that meant). It’s not unrealistic if they did fool around.
In your opinion.


Relatively (at least at times), Spike treated Buffy worse than he treated Harmony. I
Are you serious?! :confused3:


In BtVS S2 and BtVS S4, we would never suspect or assume that Spike would rape Dru or Harmony.
He tried to kill Harmony just because he found her babbling annoying. 'Nuff said.

He was nicer to Dru than she was to him and certainly nice by vampire standards. For human standards, however... He 'got Dru back' in S2 by getting rid of Angelus and dragging her unconscious to her car, and in S3 he thought the best way to get her back was by finding her, tying her up and torturing her until she likes him again. The latter is not that different from trying to rape Buffy into wanting him again.



Who thinks that BtVS is like Twilight ?
A lot of the general public who have no clue what BtVS is, except that it's some teenage show about a hot girl and vampires.


"Dru is not an eternal victim that needs to be put out of her misery. "
Who thinks this?
Some posters on this forum have expressed this opinion. Several posters mostly think of her as a victim (this was debated in an A&F comics thread when Daddy Issues part 1 was about to come out). Vampire in Rug has said that the only good thing to do for her would be to stake her and put her out of her misery.


I’m not sure Angel actually wanted that. Angel was making himself a new eternal lover. I consider that Angel was in love with Dru.
Darla: "So are we going to kill her during, or after?"
Angelus sits up, startling her: "Neither. We turn her into one of us. - Killing is so merciful at the end, isn't it? The pain has ended."
Darla: "But to make her one of us? She's a lunatic."
Angelus: "Eternal torment. (Grabs a hold of Darla's arms and rolls them so he is back on top with her under him on the floor) Am I learning?"
Angelus starts to kiss Darla while Dru first laughs then cries.
(AtS Dear Boy)

He was wrong, as it turns out. What he didn't count on was that Dru wouldn't be tormented when she became a soulless vampire. Instead she enjoys being a vampire.


Spike was no more “under Buffy’s wing” or suffocated by her character than Cordy was with Angel. The only reason people find it more noticeable with Spike (and make comments about him being whipped/emasculated) is because they’re not used to seeing a male in this position.

vampmogs

They saw Spike/Drusilla and they saw Angel/Darla.
What is your point?


Everyone believed that Angel’s child was likely evil and bad for the world. Then once Angel sees that it’s humanoid, Angel simply decides that he wants to keep it. Gunn points out that the child could be a bad thing and Angel simply responds with something like, “So what should we do? Kill my child?” None of them knew that Connor was actually good and not an apocalyptic threat. Angel simply decided that he wanted to keep the child and that was that. When Wesley sees the prophecy, the rest of the gang are pro-Connor for whatever reason (maybe Angel being their boss and providing their livelihoods has a lot to do with it) and so Wesley believes that he can’t talk to them about it. And then he goes out of his way to seek out information and discovers that the prophecy is true. And Holtz isn’t a bad guy. He’s a guy who wants revenge for what Angel did to Holtz’s family and a guy that saw that Angel was still with Darla. And Wesley intended to keep the child himself, not give it to Holtz. So, I side with Wes. Relatively, he seems more rational and agonized more over the decision than Giles does when he tells Buffy that the Scoobies need to kill Dawn.
I don't think Wesley was unforgivable, but what are you trying to say? Wesley kidnapped Connor to protect Connor. What does that have to do with their fears about Connor before he was born?


Most probably don’t even know about Twilight. Among the general public, Buffy/Angel still is probably pretty much like Lois and Clark, Mary Jane and Peter Parker, etc. Fans of the Buffyverse may now lean toward Buffy/Spike, Joss seems to lean toward Buffy/Spike, but if a movie is ever made? I still think Buffy/Angel is more likely than Buffy/Spike because that’s what the general public knows about.

If a movie is to be made without Joss, Angel would not be in it at all, because he, just as Spike, Willow, Xander, Giles etc., is Joss Whedon's property. Buffy is not, so if the movie that was planned earlier had been made, the only characters who could be in it would be Buffy, Joyce, the others from the original movie, and new original characters.

If Joss were to make a movie about BtVS, he would do whatever he wants to do, and he would also know that he's primarily making it for the fans, and only then for the "general public".


At the time, Joyce was still alive and Buffy was at least upper middle class.
Hell no. Buffy was middle class, but certainly not "upper middle class". The only one out of the Scoobies who was meant to be upper middle class was Cordelia before her dad's tax problems. And your "at least" seems to imply that Buffy might be rich/upper class, which is completely unlikely.


Cordy’s wardrobe became pretty much as good as Buffy’s. Either guys she dated were giving her a ton of money, or Angel was giving her a ton of money.
There's the much more likely 3rd option: it's just another case of TV wardrobe not being very realistic.

Athanos
11-06-12, 06:53 PM
In my opinion, Groo was completely out of place on AtS and was the worst character on the show with the exception of the Italian W&H woman from The Girl In Question. I couldn't take him seriously at all, he seemed to be a mix between a reject from a really bad swords & sandals C-movie and a member of Manowar. (http://images.wikia.com/lyricwiki/images/1/15/Manowar_-_Anthology.jpg)




LOL,Yes! I can definately see him in Manowar. It should be canon that after he left the show he joined the band. :eviltail:

Jack Shaftoe
11-06-12, 07:55 PM
I couldn't take him seriously at all, he seemed to be a mix between a reject from a really bad swords & sandals C-movie and a member of Manowar.

Hey, that's exactly why I liked him. :) Well, that and getting in the way of the complete nonsense that was Angel/Cordelia.


About Angel not being able to kill Wesley after finding out that Wesley’s actions resulting in Holtz having Connor: the Mayor stopped trying to kill Buffy. What exactly is different?

The Mayor didn't have superpowers except invincibility which wouldn't have helped much in a fight against Angel. He might not have died but he would have lost. As for Angel, as far as I remember he didn't need to yell at Wes, he could have murdered him quietly without anyone in the hospital noticing.


Joss says she’s gay; so, she’s gay.

Ever heard of a concept named Death of the Author (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor)?


Willow’s powers come from her needing to stay with Buffy and Co. instead of going off to Harvard or Oxford.

The who in the what now? Willow was going to stay with Buffy even if she had no powers at all. They made Willow incredibly powerful because the show started a silly supernatural arms race with the introduction of Adam and Glory and they planned to make Willow evil later.


It was unfair because those AtS viewers that hadn’t seen BtVS – which was most of the viewers – would simply view her as a raving bi)ch who was only after Faith because…? BtVS viewers knew where Buffy was coming from. AtS viewers only knew Faith as this cool hot sexy chick who was more fun than Buffy. They weren’t told what Faith had done in BtVS S3 or in BtVS S4.

First, I would imagine that most AtS viewers had watched Buffy too. Second, I don't recall how much of Faith's past was told but the things she did on AtS alone would have disqualified her from being seen as just a "cool hot sexy chick who was more fun than Buffy". Well, unless one thinks murder attempts and torture and fun and sexy...


Shows on Showtime, FX, and HBO can be good shows, but I don’t remember any show I’ve watched from them being a smart show.

The Wire is many times "smarter" than any Whedon show.

Lostsoul666
12-06-12, 07:38 PM
If a movie is to be made without Joss, Angel would not be in it at all, because he, just as Spike, Willow, Xander, Giles etc., is Joss Whedon's property.Wrong the characters for the Buffy and Angel tv series belong to Fox not Joss. Joss owns nothing.

BuffySpike
14-06-12, 01:49 PM
Wrong the characters for the Buffy and Angel tv series belong to Fox not Joss. Joss owns nothing.

Can you show me a link where it says that? How do you know that?

ubi4soft
14-06-12, 06:10 PM
Can you show me a link where it says that? How do you know that?
Check out any Buffy comic or DVD and you'll read something like Buffy The Vampire Slayer TM & © Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation. All rights reserved

MikeB
17-07-12, 06:01 AM
All caught up

_______

This post is in response to posts #161 (top of page 9) and after (including in response to responses to my previous post.)

________

I’m going to continue to try to avoid discussing Buffy/Spike until I finally post on the Buffy/Spike thread.

* Joss Whedon says that Willow is a lesbian; so, she’s a lesbian.

* The Wishverse is merely something Anya made up. About nothing about it makes any sense. The US Government wouldn’t have tolerated a town ruled by vampires. The townspeople would have left – or at least those moneyed enough not to need to tolerate being in such a town. And there seems no reason for why Willow and Xander would be the Master’s lieutenants instead of Luke and Darla.




Jack Shaftoe


Xander having lusted after every female cast member who made it to the opening credits (except for one-episode-in-the-credits, 100% lesbian Tara and he still had an erotic dream with her and Willow) and all of them at some point returning his feelings . And that's not even counting his sleeping with Faith. Buffy in BtVS S8 wasn’t so much returning his feelings as realizing he was the only guy around and he was about to get with Dawn.


There is also the Cordelia/Angel borefest, the Welsey-Gunn-Fred love triangle of doom, etc. I know writers are reluctant to add new characters just to be love interests but the intra-group dating was a bit too much for my taste. Well, it costs money to introduce new characters to simply be love interests of principal characters.

______________________________________________


My quote: If Buffy hadn't kissed Angel and gave Angel some hope for their future, Spike wouldn't have died in "Chosen" (7.22)

It's amazing how often you say things about Spike that even die-hard Spike haters wouldn't say. Well, I choose to take this as a compliment. :)


My quote: Buffy/Spike started in "School Hard" (2.03) and since "School Hard" Buffy seemed to think that Spike was into her and/or want Spike to be into her.

Examples, please. When I finally get around to the Buffy/Spike thread.


My quote: If Spike had been nice to her in "Something Blue" (4.09) -- during the spell and otherwise -- and showed that he wanted to be her, Buffy would have gotten with Spike in "Something Blue"

What exactly are you basing this on? The episode opener and everything after: again, this is something I’ll get to in the Buffy/Spike thread.


At this point Buffy was actually tolerating Spike less than Giles, Willow and Xander were. Meaning what? Buffy was the one that had to feed Spike, restrain Spike, go get Spike, etc.


She also wanted to have a "normal" boyfriend. No, it’s only by the end of the episode that that’s what she decides on having.


And of course, Spike wasn't exactly in love with her either. Spike was in love with her in BtVS S2: he was simply in denial and/or it was only subconscious.


My quote: Faith was more a 'geek fantasy' girl than Buffy. Buffy was into shopping, great looking guys, etc. Faith was into comic books, video games, etc.

She was? I can't say I recall that, to be honest, but then again I hate Faith. In any case, Willow and Fred fit the "geek fantasy girl" stereotype far better than Faith, IMO. Well, I guess it depends on what one considers a ‘geek fantasy’. Alyson Hannigan and Amy Acker weren’t sex symbols (or at least weren’t at the level that SMG and Eliza Dushku were/are).

______________________________________________


The Mayor didn't have superpowers except invincibility which wouldn't have helped much in a fight against Angel. He might not have died but he would have lost. There were other people there was well. Was Angel going to be fighting everyone off in order to kill Wes?


As for Angel, as far as I remember he didn't need to yell at Wes, he could have murdered him quietly without anyone in the hospital noticing. Angel was angry and so was the Mayor.


My quote: Joss says she’s gay; so, she’s gay.

Ever heard of a concept named Death of the Author? That doesn’t apply. This is the Whedonverse and what Joss says is canon, is canon.


Willow was going to stay with Buffy even if she had no powers at all. According to what? Without a real way to be helpful in the fight against evil, Willow was much less likely going to give up on her future in order to stay in Sunnydale with Buffy.


First, I would imagine that most AtS viewers had watched Buffy too. They said that there was a 20% crossover.


Second, I don't recall how much of Faith's past was told but the things she did on AtS alone would have disqualified her from being seen as just a "cool hot sexy chick who was more fun than Buffy". Well, unless one thinks murder attempts and torture and fun and sexy... That wasn’t stuff she did to Buffy. AtS viewers who hadn’t seen BtVS wouldn’t know what Faith did to Buffy or to Sunnydale. And the stuff she had done on AtS was a ‘cry for help’ to get Angel to want to kill her.


My quote: Shows on Showtime, FX, and HBO can be good shows, but I don’t remember any show I’ve watched from them being a smart show.

The Wire is many times "smarter" than any Whedon show. The Wire is straightforward: it’s not ‘smart’.



KingofCretins


I will add my own unpopular opinion to those who liked Xander and Willow that Joss could have gotten them together as a couple believably in Season 8, purely from a storytelling standpoint. I don’t know what you mean by “from a storytelling standpoint”. But given that Joss got her with Kennedy and she stayed with Kennedy, it wouldn’t make much sense for her to date Xander.


Unpopular opinion also that he'd have taken so much heat for it that it would never have been worth it. There was a boycott of the show because Joss killed Tara: that’s one of the reasons BtVS S7’s ratings are lower than BtVS S6’s. Joss has said that Willow is a lesbian, so it’d be rather pointless to hook her up with Xander.



ChaddyMan1


Twilight and Buffy should have had all the powers of Superman and not just the normal F.I.S.S abilities. That would have been too much of a rip-off. It’d have also made them too powerful. I mean super-breath, laser eyes, etc.

_____________________________________________


I hate confusing mythology! Structure and Order are the way to go. The mythology is not that confusing.



BuffySpike


Buffy Loved spike in season 6 but this was deeply seeded and hidden behind denial and moral grounds. I consider the ‘denial’ is more because of how Spike was treating her and why Buffy was allowing him to treat her that way.


I say this because in season 7 [Buffy] actually says out loud to the scoobies "Why does everyone assume I am STILL in love with Spike?" This goes totally over the scoobies heads and even her own and that is why no one really picks up on the line IMO. First off, this line was said to Willow. Willow likely had already assumed that Buffy was in love with Spike. Willow could have been assuming that Buffy was referring to souled Spike. And given in BtVS S7 how Buffy been acting with and regarding Spike, it should be no surprise to anyone that Buffy loved him.


Its a huge revelation in the series because it would indicate that she has loved Spike for quite some time. I consider that at-latest Buffy already acknowledges it in “Dead Things” (6.13): “You always hurt the one you love.”


Buffy could never bring herself to kill Spike yet she killed Angel. Buffy had to kill Angel.


Buffy always felt lower than Angel, Huh?


she was always enthralled by him, No.


he's unattainable, Buffy was in a relationship with him from at least BtVS S1-3.


I firmly believe that if Spike could have physically fought Buffy in Fool for Love then they would have had sex then and there. Or it’d be a fight to the death.


Part of Buffy wanted to get bitten and devoured by Spike in Out of My Mind as a form of sexual release because she is not satisfied by Riley at all This was clear since episode 1 of season 5. I doubt Buffy would want ‘a little death’ that would result in her actual death.


She most certainly didn't struggle much as he was about to bite her. She does the same with Mr. Trick.


I'm almost certain she felt Spike's lust for her at the end for Fool for Love, she knew Spike wanted her big time then she suddenly forgets it until Crush? In “Crush” (5.14) Buffy is told by Dawn that Spike is completely in love with her, not that he’s merely attracted to her.


I always kind of sensed that she did entertain the idea for a split second when Spike grabbed her but then came to her senses. Well, he did tell her that he was staying in Sunnydale for the opportunity to kill her.

_______________________________________________


I think the thought of him loving her grossed her out much more than him lusting after her. She was confused and wasn’t happy about it. And why would she be when in 5.04 he’d tried to get his chip removed and tried to kill her and in 5.07 tells her that he’s staying in Sunnydale for the opportunity to kill her.



TimeTravellingBunny


My quote: When Groo came back in AtS, it would have been good to give Groo the visions and have Groo be the champion. Groo doesn’t turn evil and Cordy was simply doing things that were machinations for Jasmine to be born.

In my opinion, Groo was completely out of place on AtS and was the worst character on the show with the exception of the Italian W&H woman from The Girl In Question. I consider Groo a great character, but I agree that he was kinda out of place because what I said in my quote.


My quote: And if Angel had killed Wesley, he’d be put up on murder charges. And Kate no longer being around, how was he possibly going to get off scot free?

Are you saying that Kate would have been able (and willing) to get off Angel free for murder? I don’t know.


If you're gonna write off S7 Spike with "he's focused on his relationship with Buffy", then you may as well write off AtS S5 Spike with "he's focused on his relationship/rivalry/friendship with Angel". In BtVS S7, Spike kept the info he had of the First’s plans to himself. In BtVS S7 Spike pretty much only considered his wrongdoing to include the attempted rape of Buffy.


My quote: [Drusilla] was still in London. She was in London when Angel first saw her. Her family lived in London in a nice part of London.

Where did you see that it was a "nice" part of London? A&F ( Angel and Faith ).


My quote: Buffy was reasonable and correct. Her being ‘the General’ means that the Scoobies simply should have respected her authority.

No, it doesn't. They shouldn’t have respected her authority?


She's a self-appointed general, Giles and all the rest chose for her to be the ‘General’: only those like Kennedy and Rona may have wanted someone else.


they are not a military, Yes, they are.


and they never took oath to listen to her orders. True, but they did follow Faith and Co.’s stupid plan.


She's not some perfect godlike person who knows everything and never makes mistakes, She is someone who’d been the Slayer for 8 years and saved the world a lot and died twice in her duties.


and she should be able to justify her decisions She did.


and inspire confidence and loyalty with her leadership skills and confidence, not pulling the authoritarian "You must all do what I say!" card. Kennedy didn’t want Buffy as leader because Kennedy wanted to be the leader. Rona didn’t like Buffy. Wood and Giles were still bitter that Buffy was unpleased that they tried to murder Spike. Xander was bitter that his eye got poked out. Willow was bitter that Buffy didn’t stay at the hospital with Xander and her. And Dawn was remembering First Joyce’s warning. They weren’t being rational and reasonable: they were being selfish and petty.


Buffy wasn't the dictator-style leader before, She wasn’t a dictator in BtVS S7.


Her leadership skills in Empty Places sucked big time and she alienated people around her. I don’t know how she could have handled that much better: they were against her for petty and selfish reasons and it was almost impossible for Buffy to combat that.


Fortunately she got back her strength and faith in herself and her people skills and leadership skills were much improved in End of Days/Chosen. Buffy got the Scythe while Faith led the Potentials into a trap that got some of them blown up and Faith hurt: they followed her again because they acknowledged that she was the best leader for them.


My quote: Buffy had removed Spike’s chip in “Get it Done” (7.13) and here she was – seemingly out of nowhere – going on a date with Wood.

Out of nowhere? They were flirting since the beginning of the season. Wood was flirting with Buffy; other than maybe ‘polite flirting’, Buffy wasn’t flirting with Wood.


My quote: But other than that is that Spike is the most popular character in the ‘verse and Wood wanted to kill him because of something that Spike did that Buffy already knows about and doesn’t seem to mind (too much or at all). And then Wood seemed to believe that he could butter Buffy up to the point that she’d be fine with Wood killing Spike.

So Wood was a bad guy for trying to kill a popular character? To the audience. Wood following the First Evil’s aims literally made his actions evil.


and why should Wood care if Buffy was upset or not about Spike killing Wood's mother? Buffy’s the Slayer and wanted Spike around and none of the other Scoobies wanted Spike dead.


My quote: [Buffy/Angel] seemed to be portrayed as an ideal romance for [Buffy].

Tell me a single instance when the Buffy/Angel relationship seemed to anywhere near something one could call a perfect relationship. I said “it seemed to be portrayed as an ideal romance for her.”


At best, it was somewhat functional (Halloween to Surprise) but even then, Angel kept secrets from Buffy. And it was explicitly treated as a Bad Boyfriend relationship in Beauty and the Beasts. This isn’t a Buffy/Angel thread, but it’s not as if Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike were perfect relationships.


My quote: At-most Angel in AtS in “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) says that they have “a forever love”. Buffy does say something about their being together when she’s 50.

Angel's line in TGIQ was written and acted as comic/parodic It was about Angel saying that Buffy and he have “a forever love”.


- it's not from BtVS, AtS is canon.


and TGIQ was mocking Bangel and Spuffy. Not really.


I don't remember Buffy saying anything about them being together when she's 50, could you find a quote? She’s discussing what their relationship would be like when she’s 50 and he still looks young. Or something. I could find the quote but it’d be tedious to go through Buffyworld.com and Find the quote. It’s in BtVS S1-S3.


but when they did have a relationship, it was mostly angsty and dysfunctional and not particularly happy. As opposed to Buffy/Spike? And aside from in the very beginning, this would describe Buffy/Riley.


My quote: Buffy knows that she can’t “be with” Angel because of Angel’s perfectly happiness clause. If Angel had showed up in Season 5 without having that clause, she would have likely dumped Riley and gotten with Angel.

You don't know that. Hypothetical "if" arguments don't prove anything, they aren't real arguments but speculation. That’s more than speculation given “I Will Remember You” (A 1.08) and BtVS S5.


My quote: But in “Chosen” (7.22), again, she couldn’t “be with” Angel

Her conversation with Angel doesn't suggest that. Buffy shooed Angel off while still trying to leave her ‘Angel option’ open to her. Fact is, with his perfect happiness clause, she couldn’t “be with” Angel anyway.


My quote: and there was Spike’s First Evil connection and the complication of Spike vs. Angel if Angel joined the fight; still, it’s not a ‘real’ choosing of Spike over Angel because it’s not a ‘fair’ choice.

What First Evil connection? The Trigger being gone doesn’t mean that the First Evil would no longer be interested in Spike.


It's a completely fair choice. She can’t have sex with Angel, the Potentials are used to Spike and have no experience with Angel, Spike has been with her all this time, and having Angel join in would result in unnecessary conflict.


Nothing and nobody was forcing her to have Spike instead of Angel in the fight “Instead”? As if she was going to bring Angel and tell Spike to go away.


My quote: How could Angel have stopped Drusilla and Darla from killing the lawyers? Saying he did the wrong thing implies that the right thing would have been to stop them which would mean that one considers that he could stop them.

The only way he could have tried to stop them or prevented some lawyer deaths is if he went in there and tried to fight off Darla and Dru. They’d either kick his ass or simply kill him.


My quote: She can’t be with Angel. She dances with Faith in the Bronze. SMG and Eliza Dushku had obvious chemistry together and while Faith was the ‘aggressor’, Buffy did seem into Faith (whatever that meant). It’s not unrealistic if they did fool around.

In your opinion. I didn’t say otherwise.


My quote: Relatively (at least at times), Spike treated Buffy worse than he treated Harmony.

Are you serious?! Spike never tried to rape Harmony; Spike took Harmony out on dates.


He tried to kill Harmony just because he found her babbling annoying. 'Nuff said. Spike many times tried to kill Buffy.


He was nicer to Dru than she was to him That’s certainly debatable but I have a Spike/Dru thread.


For human standards, however... He 'got Dru back' in S2 by getting rid of Angelus and dragging her unconscious to her car, He got Dru back fully to himself.


and in S3 he thought the best way to get her back was by finding her, tying her up and torturing her until she likes him again. The latter is not that different from trying to rape Buffy into wanting him again. He knew Dru’d like it.


My quote: Who thinks that BtVS is like Twilight ?

A lot of the general public who have no clue what BtVS is, except that it's some teenage show about a hot girl and vampires. That’s depressing. I don’t know anyone in the US who would think that BtVS is like Twilight .


My quote: Angel was making himself a new eternal lover. I consider that Angel was in love with Dru.

Sure, Angel tells Darla the “eternal torment” angle.


Originally Posted by vampmogs
Spike was no more “under Buffy’s wing” or suffocated by her character than Cordy was with Angel. The only reason people find it more noticeable with Spike (and make comments about him being whipped/emasculated) is because they’re not used to seeing a male in this position.

Spike was ‘under Dru’s wing’ in BtVS S2 and the flashbacks show Angel as Darla’s puppy dog.


If a movie is to be made without Joss, Angel would not be in it at all, because he, just as Spike, Willow, Xander, Giles etc., is Joss Whedon's property. No, they are Fox Entertainment’s property, which is owned by NewsCorp.


If Joss were to make a movie about BtVS, he would do whatever he wants to do, and he would also know that he's primarily making it for the fans, and only then for the "general public". Serenity was made for the fans. A Buffyverse movie would more likely be made for the fans and the general audience. And I’d be surprised if Joss declines to do The Avengers 2 . I could see Joss being Executive Producer and writing the script of a Buffyverse movie, but at this point, he may have someone else direct the thing.


My quote: At the time, Joyce was still alive and Buffy was at least upper middle class.

Buffy was middle class, but certainly not "upper middle class". For the US, Buffy was at least upper middle class. Buffy’s yearly wardrobe would be in at least the $10s of 1,000s.


The only one out of the Scoobies who was meant to be upper middle class was Cordelia before her dad's tax problems. Cordy was possibly lower upper class.


My quote: Cordy’s wardrobe became pretty much as good as Buffy’s. Either guys she dated were giving her a ton of money, or Angel was giving her a ton of money.

There's the much more likely 3rd option: it's just another case of TV wardrobe not being very realistic. In the beginning of the series, Cordy has a crappy wardrobe and is living in a crappy place. And they show Angel giving Cordy a huge wad of money for her to go on a little vacation.

Jack Shaftoe
17-07-12, 06:57 AM
Well, it costs money to introduce new characters to simply be love interests of principal characters.

[Phoebe Buffay voice] This is brand new information![/Phoebe Buffay voice]. Seriously, no need to explain things that are clear to everyone who has watched a TV show in their life.


Meaning what? Buffy was the one that had to feed Spike, restrain Spike, go get Spike, etc.

Meaning Buffy couldn't care less about Spike's suicide attempt, unlike Willow.


No, it’s only by the end of the episode that that’s what she decides on having.

And what do you think Parker was supposed to be, pray tell?


That doesn’t apply. This is the Whedonverse and what Joss says is canon, is canon.

Maybe for you, not for me. Sorry.


Spike was in love with her in BtVS S2: he was simply in denial and/or it was only subconscious.

Subconscious? How silly of me not to notice something so obvious! I guess you read his mind somehow then? Bravo!


Well, I guess it depends on what one considers a ‘geek fantasy’. Alyson Hannigan and Amy Acker weren’t sex symbols (or at least weren’t at the level that SMG and Eliza Dushku were/are).

If being considered a sex symbol is your benchmark for geek fantasy, you might as well remove the word geek from that phrase, you know. And maybe it's my bias talking but I am pretty sure plenty of people considered Alyson hot back then and many still do. And with Willow there is no question if she is a geek or not. Not sure why we are discussing this, by the way. :)


Without a real way to be helpful in the fight against evil, Willow was much less likely going to give up on her future in order to stay in Sunnydale with Buffy.

Yes, it's not like good research or just having someone with no superpowers help in a fight had saved Buffy's life many times at that point...oh, wait. Not to mention that "giving up her future" is a bit of exaggeration - Willow's career might not have turned out so well even if everyone had stayed in Sunnydale and she hadn't gone dark and stuff but I doubt that having just UC Sunnydale diploma would have prevented her from becoming whatever she wanted to be. As long as she stayed in Sunnydale, of course, which sure is a rather big restriction, but helping save the world must be rather fulfilling (not to mention a case of self-preservation), so it's not like she gave up her brilliant career for something stupid.


They said that there was a 20% crossover.

I find that extremely hard to believe. Who are "they", anyway?


And the stuff she had done on AtS was a ‘cry for help’ to get Angel to want to kill her.

And that somehow makes Faith fun and sexy?


The Wire is straightforward: it’s not ‘smart’.

I am not sure what you mean by the Wire being straightforward, but let's agree to disagree about the smart thing.

ChaddyMan1
17-07-12, 07:18 AM
Are you arguing our opinions MikeB, Really? Cause that is very, very unfortunate.

57) Opinions can not be debated, only uncertain truths and motives can be debated.

58) Xander's motivation for fighting is anger.

59) Xander should either have been away longer in Season 4 or not at all.

MikeB
11-09-12, 06:14 AM
Jack Shaftoe


Buffy couldn't care less about Spike's suicide attempt, unlike Willow. Buffy didn’t even know that Spike had actually tried to commit suicide.


Buffy as they enter: “Be careful you guys, the place doesn’t look to stable.”
Spike: “Fine by me. Hope we all go under.”
Buffy: “Why is he even here. It’s not like he can fight!”
Willow: “If we leave him alone, he’ll stake himself.”
Buffy: “And that’s bad because...? - Fine. Whatever. Just keep him out of the way. I do *not* have time for this. http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/067_tran.html

And Buffy was trying to stop an apocalypse and Spike was being really mopey and she knew that he couldn’t fight. She may have merely been annoyed by his mopiness or whatever: it’s not a given that she wouldn’t at all care if he dusted himself.


My quote: No, it’s only by the end of the episode that that’s what she decides on having.

And what do you think Parker was supposed to be, pray tell? I don’t know what this refers to.


My quote: This is the Whedonverse and what Joss says is canon, is canon.

Maybe for you, not for me. Sorry. Um, this isn’t arguable. Joss Whedon is the arbiter of canon and he determines canon.


My quote: Spike was in love with her in BtVS S2: he was simply in denial and/or it was only subconscious.

Subconscious? How silly of me not to notice something so obvious! I’ve explained this in other threads.


My quote: Well, I guess it depends on what one considers a ‘geek fantasy’. Alyson Hannigan and Amy Acker weren’t sex symbols (or at least weren’t at the level that SMG and Eliza Dushku were/are).

If being considered a sex symbol is your benchmark for geek fantasy, you might as well remove the word geek from that phrase, you know. Huh?


And maybe it's my bias talking but I am pretty sure plenty of people considered Alyson hot back then and many still do. And with Willow there is no question if she is a geek or not. [quote] Not sure why we are discussing this, by the way. :) Someone brought up the subject? And I’ve mentioned many times on this Board that Alyson Hannigan got a cover on FHM and was in Hot 100 lists. Amy Acker was in Maxim (I forget whether it was a cover, but it was as multi-page spread).


My quote: Without a real way to be helpful in the fight against evil, Willow was much less likely going to give up on her future in order to stay in Sunnydale with Buffy.

Yes, it's not like good research or just having someone with no superpowers help in a fight had saved Buffy's life many times at that point...oh, wait. Okay, I may have worded that poorly; still, without her magical powers I consider it was less likely that Willow would have opted to stay in Sunnydale.


I doubt that having just UC Sunnydale diploma would have prevented her from becoming whatever she wanted to be. As long as she stayed in Sunnydale, of course, which sure is a rather big restriction, but helping save the world must be rather fulfilling (not to mention a case of self-preservation), so it's not like she gave up her brilliant career for something stupid. That’s a good point; but again, my premise is if Willow didn’t have magical powers she wouldn’t have been as powerful and useful in that world-saving fight and so she wouldn’t have as likely stayed in Sunnydale. Also, Buffy and Co. could have simply gotten a techno-pagan (what Jenny Calender was) to do hacking and whatnot.


My quote: They said that there was a 20% crossover.

I find that extremely hard to believe. You think that number is too high or too low?


Who are "they", anyway? It was said on the DVDs or something: I don’t quite remember.


My quote: And the stuff she had done on AtS was a ‘cry for help’ to get Angel to want to kill her.

And that somehow makes Faith fun and sexy? Huh?



ChaddyMan1


Are you arguing our opinions MikeB, Really? Cause that is very, very unfortunate. I wasn’t going to but noticed that others were arguing opinions and so decided to do the same.


57) Opinions can not be debated, only uncertain truths and motives can be debated. If this were true, there goes like over 90% of BuffyForums’ activity.

Effy-Mad-World
23-11-12, 03:51 AM
I love UO threads because I always have so many. My biggest ones:

1. I hate Spuffy. I hate pretty much everything about it and I firmly believe that it should never have been allowed to continue post-AR. Once sexual assault is introduced into a relationship that should be the end of it. To show Buffy fall in love with Spike after he has violated her to such degrees is awful.

2. I love Xander Harris. Yes, he has his extremely douchey moments and he can be quite vicious sometimes. However he has a beautifully quiet bravery that is constantly overlooked. He walks with demons, witches, slayers and werewolves and never developes any special talent or gift himself, yet he keeps fighting.

3. I am a big defender of both Dawn and Connor. Yes, they are both whiney and annoying but they have kind of earned the right to be so. It's very hard not to feel sorry for them when you sit back and really consider everything they are put through (Connor especially)

4. I love Cordy/Xander and really wished we could have seen them have a second chance a adults because I think they would have worked.

5. I love Cordy and Angel's friendship and I hate that they felt the need to make it romantic. While I can see why they went down that road and I can recognise the appeal of the Cangel ship, for me it always felt unnatural and slightly squicky.

6. I'm not a massive fan of Buffy as a character. I sympathise with her a lot and she does have a lot of admirable qualities but I just can't bring myself to like her.

But my biggest unpopular opinion is not about any of the shows but about the man behind the shows. Words cannot describe how much I freaking loathe the "feminist" tag attached to Joss. Joss Whedon is not a feminist. All you have to do is look at his treatment of his female characters, his complete and utter lack of understanding and respect when it comes to sexual assault on women and his female characters themselves, almost none of whom could be considered truly strong, independant females. Joss is many things; a great writer, a great director, a fantastic storyteller. But he is not a feminist.

vampmogs
23-11-12, 03:58 AM
6. I'm not a massive fan of Buffy as a character. I sympathise with her a lot and she does have a lot of admirable qualities but I just can't bring myself to like her.

Forgive me for asking, but how can Bangel be your OTP when you don't even like Buffy? I'll never understood how people can be fans of a ship when they don't even like one of the characters in said ship. I've just never really got the appeal of shipping a couple when you don't even like the character/s as individuals :headscratch:

zianna
23-11-12, 04:08 AM
Forgive me for asking, but how can Bangel be your OTP when you don't even like Buffy? I'll never understood how people can be fans of a ship when they don't even like one of the characters in said ship. I've just never really got the appeal of shipping a couple when you don't even like the character/s as individuals :headscratch:

Yeah, me too, I was ready to post the same question.
And also another one, I'm definitely NOT a Spuffy, but if there is anything to love about those two, that's mostly S7. Sorry but I find it strange that people loathe Spike for the sexual attack but at the same time love Angel who was the one who actually raped Buffy, according to California's laws. In real life circumstances, it would have been Angel sentenced to jail, not Spike.

EDIT
Not to mention the Angel/Darla sex in AtS
I'm reposting @ubi4soft's post in SA

Tim Minear said that Angel raped Darla

http://investigatingangel.com/podcast/tim-minear-interview
"Angel forced himself on Darla", around min 24

http://www.nerdist.com/2011/10/nerdist-writers-panel-13-steven-s-deknight-tim-minear-megan-ganz-harris-wittels/
Around 43:26 Tim Minear talks again about (his original pitch) "Angel having angry sex with Darla and then stakes her, Joss thought it was to dark for WB, but he does kinda rapes her".

http://www.redemptioncast.blogspot.ro/2012/03/tim-minear-q-spoilers.html
the very first question answered starts around min 2, "Angel slaps Darla around the face and the network made me cut it out and I'm yeah but he's raping her"

Effy-Mad-World
23-11-12, 04:21 AM
Forgive me for asking, but how can Bangel be your OTP when you don't even like Buffy? I'll never understood how people can be fans of a ship when they don't even like one of the characters in said ship. I've just never really got the appeal of shipping a couple when you don't even like the character/s as individuals :headscratch:
I can ship Bangel because, for me, it's not about the individuals it's about the relationship as a whole. I love watching their story unfold and watching their connection grow.

That being said, I don't hate Buffy by any means and there are times (especially in the early seasons) where I don't mind her.


Yeah, me too, I was ready to post the same question.
And also another one, I'm definitely NOT a Spuffy, but if there is anything to love about those two, that's mostly S7. Sorry but I find it strange that people loathe Spike for the sexual attack but at the same time love Angel who was the one who actually raped Buffy, according to California's laws. In real life circumstances, it would have been Angel sentenced to jail, not Spike.

EDIT
Not to mention the Angel/Darla sex in AtS
I'm using @ubi4soft post in SA

Tim Minear said that Angel raped Darla

http://investigatingangel.com/podcast/tim-minear-interview
"Angel forced himself on Darla", around min 24

http://www.nerdist.com/2011/10/nerdist-writers-panel-13-steven-s-deknight-tim-minear-megan-ganz-harris-wittels/
Around 43:26 Tim Minear talks again about (his original pitch) "Angel having angry sex with Darla and then stakes her, Joss thought it was to dark for WB, but he does kinda rapes her".

http://www.redemptioncast.blogspot.ro/2012/03/tim-minear-q-spoilers.html
the very first question answered starts around min 2, "Angel slaps Darla around the face and the network made me cut it out and I'm yeah but he's raping her"

re: Buffy. Angel committed statutory rape which is in no way comparable with a violent sexual assault. Buffy could not legally consent but in the situation she was a willing participant and was not forced into anything by Angel.

I don't hate Spike for the AR. I hate that the writers allow Buffy to get close to him after it and that there is little to no fallout from it.

re: Darla and Angel. Angel didn't rape Darla. Maybe he would have (he probably would have) but she consented. Watch the scene again. That is definitely not rape..

zianna
23-11-12, 04:29 AM
I can ship Bangel because, for me, it's not about the individuals it's about the relationship as a whole. I love watching their story unfold and watching their connection grow.

That being said, I don't hate Buffy by any means and there are times (especially in the early seasons) where I don't mind her.



re: Buffy. Angel committed statutory rape which is in no way comparable with a violent sexual assault. Buffy could not legally consent but in the situation she was a willing participant and was not forced into anything by Angel.

I don't hate Spike for the AR. I hate that the writers allow Buffy to get close to him after it and that there is little to no fallout from it.

re: Darla and Angel. Angel didn't rape Darla. Maybe he would have (he probably would have) but she consented. Watch the scene again. That is definitely not rape..

Are you on SA, zianna? I have come across this argument before ...

So, just because an underaged says yes, it's OK for an adult to have sex with her. No problem, nothing gross there!

I've watched that scene many times. He would have gone with it, no matter what Darla wanted. But I guess we fans know more than the actual writer of the episode and his intentions, right? :xd

But anyway let's leave that and return to Darla. You say you are also an Angel/Darla shipper. But you don't hate the writers that had Darla raping Angel for nights, and if not raping there was 100% sexual harassment for many nights.
Huh? :blink:

I am in SA but I didn't post in that thread.

vampmogs
23-11-12, 04:38 AM
I don't hate Spike for the AR. I hate that the writers allow Buffy to get close to him after it and that there is little to no fallout from it.

But you don't mind Buffy getting close to Angel again after he murdered Jenny Calender, tortured Giles, threatened her mother and friends and tried to kill her? I don't think the writers did anything inappropriate by allowing Buffy to get close to Spike again after the AR. Within the internal logic of the Buffyverse it makes as much sense as Buffy getting close to Angel again after his soul was restored. Like Angel, Spike didn't have a soul when he committed his crime and Buffy doesn't get close to him again until after she learns that.

If the Buffyverse was a more realistic fictional world then I too would have major issues with Buffy and Spike continuing post-S6. Likewise, should Spike not have gotten a soul I can't imagine being ok with Buffy ever starting up a relationship with him again after the AR. However, taking into account the vampire mythology and the parameters in which the writers are working with, I don’t find it inappropriate. I really don’t think there’s any fair justification for why Buffy/Angel should have been allowed to continue after S2 (or begin at all given the age difference) but Buffy/Spike should have been discontinued after S6. The only difference between them is that Spike actually fought for his soul whilst Angel was cursed again, which if anything, and I say this as a Bangel fan, makes Spuffy an easier pill to swallow.

I'm not trying to jump on you. I'm just trying to point out that there does seem to be a general double standard when it comes to the AR. If one were to apply real life standards to either Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike it would seem highly inappropriate and gross for Buffy to engage in a relationship with either guy. However, in the Buffyverse circumstances do make it different and I can't fault the writers for applying the same logic to both relationships.

Effy-Mad-World
23-11-12, 04:44 AM
So, just because an underage says yes, it's OK for an adult to have sex with her. No problem, nothing gross there!
No, it's not "OK for an adult to have sex with a minor". However, when it comes to statutory rape things can get very murky. If Angel were 18 and Buffy 17 and they had sex, he could go to jail for that. If they had had sex in NY it would be legal. In Australia (where I live) the legal age of consent is 16, so for years (before I learned the age of consent for CA) I didn't even realise Angel had committed statutory rape.

If we were talking about a young, immature Buffy, say around 13/14 I would be crying stat rape and talking about violation. However we are talking about a mature-beyond-her-years, practically adult Buffy, who was in love with Angel and willingly consented to having sex with Angel. She was not traumatised by the sexual act itself in any way (the aftermath is a different matter).


I've watched that scene many times. He would have gone with it, no matter what Darla wanted. But I guess we fans know more than the actual writer of the episode and his intentions, right? :xd
No, I don't "know more than the actual writers". But what the writers' intend and what eventuates on screen does not always line up.

Angel probably would have raped Darla, I've already said that. However Darla saw that she could take advantage of the situation and was a willing participant. She kissed Angel, she took his clothes off, she smiled. That is not rape.


But anyway let's leave that and return to Darla. You say you are also an Angel/Darla shipper. But you don't hate the writers that had Darla raping Angel for nights, and if not raping there was 100% sexual harassment for many nights.
Huh? :blink:
I just wrote an entire paragraph in reply, then deleted it, because no matter what I say, I have always and will always receive scorn and indignation for not shipping Spuffy and for hating it to such degrees. Because, really, this is what this is about. Why can't I just be allowed to hate them and be left alone to stew in my rage? Sigh.

zianna
23-11-12, 05:04 AM
No, it's not "OK for an adult to have sex with a minor". However, when it comes to statutory rape things can get very murky. If Angel were 18 and Buffy 17 and they had sex, he could go to jail for that. If they had had sex in NY it would be legal. In Australia (where I live) the legal age of consent is 16, so for years (before I learned the age of consent for CA) I didn't even realise Angel had committed statutory rape.
Angel wasnt 18, he was actually more than 250 years old.
And they lived in California. I don't think that any case against someone from California would have been won had the attorney used the argument 'hey, it's legal in NY! Legal in Sweden, in Australia! etc'.


If we were talking about a young, immature Buffy, say around 13/14 I would be crying stat rape and talking about violation. However we are talking about a mature-beyond-her-years, practically adult Buffy, who was in love with Angel and willingly consented to having sex with Angel. She was not traumatised by the sexual act itself in any way (the aftermath is a different matter).
Oh, but you forget that Angel felt in love the first time he saw Buffy. When was that? Lets see, before she was even 15, right? Before she was called, more than a year before going to Sunnydale. EW! Fortunately Buffy wasnt traumatized by that! :)


No, I don't "know more than the actual writers". But what the writers' intend and what eventuates on screen does not always line up.

Xena and Gabrielle never had sex on screen, but that was the writers' intentions. And every lesbian out there knows about Xena and her relationship with Gabrielle.


Angel probably would have raped Darla, I've already said that. However Darla saw that she could take advantage of the situation and was a willing participant. She kissed Angel, she took his clothes off, she smiled. That is not rape.
Like I said, when the writer says it was rape, it's up to the viewers to decide whether the writer was right or not, especially forgetting about the network that the show was airing back then and its policy.


I just wrote an entire paragraph in reply, then deleted it, because no matter what I say, I have always and will always receive scorn and indignation for not shipping Spuffy and for hating it to such degrees. Because, really, this is what this is about. Why can't I just be allowed to hate them and be left alone to stew in my rage? Sigh.
I am sorry, but when in a public forum full of strangers and in an open discussion you post things that actually are double standards and you totally contradict yourself with what you're posting, you must expect reaction and replies to your posts.
That's the reason why. :)

And I didn't judge you for hating Spuffy. I get the reasons why you don't like the ship.
What I don't get though, is how can you ship Angel with Darla when the most important reason you hate Spuffy (as you claim) is what also happened between Angel and Darla in AtS S2.

Effy-Mad-World
23-11-12, 05:26 AM
Angel wasnt 18, he was actually more than 250 years old.
And they lived in California. I don't think that any case against someone from California would have been won had the attorney used the argument 'hey, it's legal in NY! Legal in Sweden, in Australia! etc'.
I wasn't trying to disprove that Angel did, technically, commit statutory rape. I was using all these examples to show how murky and unclear stat rape can be and how it is not in any way comparable with what Spike did to her.

You believe that Angel raped Buffy and Darla, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I don't believe either occured (except in the statutory sense with Buffy).

Oh, and Buffy was 15 when Angel first saw her. Creepy, yes, but nothing sexual happened between them back then.

I am also sick of being told my opinions are "double standards" and that I'm "hypocritical", I have been told both many times before. I don't care that Spike and Buffy had a mutually abusive relationship. I don't care that he tried to kill her, stalked her and terrorised her friends. Angel did exactly the same thing when he was soulless. What I do care about is the fact that Spike tried to rape her and the next season it is all but completely swept under the rug in favour of a romantic storyline.

zianna
23-11-12, 05:36 AM
I wasn't trying to disprove that Angel did, technically, commit statutory rape. I was using all these examples to show how murky and unclear stat rape can be and how it is not in any way comparable with what Spike did to her.

You believe that Angel raped Buffy and Darla, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I don't believe either occured (except in the statutory sense with Buffy).

Oh, and Buffy was 15 when Angel first saw her. Creepy, yes, but nothing sexual happened between them back then.

I am also sick of being told my opinions are "double standards" and that I'm "hypocritical". I don't care that Spike and Buffy had a mutually abusive relationship. I don't care that he tried to kill her, stalked her and terrorised her friends. Angel did exactly the same thing when he was soulless. What I do care about is the fact that Spike tried to rape her and the next season it is all but completely swept under the rug in favour of a romantic storyline.

What you don't care though is that next season Spike wasn't soulless anymore.
You love Angel's relationship with Buffy while he was soulful, and forgive him for what he did to her and to her friends while soulless.
OTOH, you hate Spike's relationship with Buffy when he was soulful because of the things he did to her while being soulless.
Sorry, but that's the definition of having double standards.
Angel killed Jenny and threatened Willow (killed her fish, lol, would have been her had she been present), threatened Joyce, and next season it was all but completely swept under the rug in favour of a romantic storyline.

And I'll mention again the fact that you ship Angel with Darla, but, lets forget about Angel for a moment, but for sure Darla was raping Angel while he was sleeping for many nights.

Anyway, you're a new user so you don't know that I hate repeating myself. And I've already repeated myself too many times tonight in this thread.
I stop it here.

Effy-Mad-World
23-11-12, 06:00 AM
What you don't care though is that next season Spike wasn't soulless anymore.
You love Angel's relationship with Buffy while he was soulful, and forgive him for what he did to her and to her friends while soulless.
Angel spent all of Season 3 trying to earn back the trust that had been broken in Season 2. The Scoobies never fully accept him back and Giles never accepts him back full stop (as he has every right not to). They explore the effect that Angelus had on the group and on Buffy. There is fallout from Season 2.


OTOH, you hate Spike's relationship with Buffy when he was soulful because of the things he did to her while being soulless.
No, I hate that Joss Whedon felt that it was acceptable to have Buffy sleep in the arms of someone who tried to rape her less than a year before. I hate that Joss Whedon used Spike's re-ensoulment to manipulate the audience and the characters into forgiving him so easily. I hate that Spike violated Buffy in such a violent and disgusting way and then, much like the abusive boyfriend who buys flowers after he hits his girlfriend, makes a big gesture to try to allieviate his own guilt. I hate that Season 7 barely mentions or touches on the trauma that Spike inflicted on Buffy. I hate that Joss Whedon has no f***ing idea how to deal with sexual assault. It's not about soul vs. non-soul. It's about the fact that Spike tried to rape Buffy.

_Buffy_
23-11-12, 06:09 AM
To siad that Angel is raped Darla is so ridiculous than no other statement I read before:roll:. Darla is Angel's mate for more than a hundred years. She wanted him so badly . Actually Darla the vampire even will be glad if Angel rape her, but he didn't. He never done this, especially in Reprise .

zianna
23-11-12, 06:24 AM
Angel spent all of Season 3 trying to earn back the trust that had been broken in Season 2. The Scoobies never fully accept him back and Giles never accepts him back full stop (as he has every right not to). They explore the effect that Angelus had on the group and on Buffy. There is fallout from Season 2.
While on the other hand Spike was fully accepted in S7?
Have I watched another show? The one in which all the scoobies were crying on top of the crater at the end of Chosen for losing Spike?
And let me quote Xander and Willow from Pangs


WILLOW
And maybe we started a new
tradition this year.
(thinks about it)
Maybe not. But anyway, we all
worked together, that was like old times.
XANDER
Yeah. Especially with Angel here
and everything.

Or Willow leaving Buffy in the middle of an apocalypse to run to LA and help re-ensoul Angel.

That's for the never fully accepted part.



No, I hate that Joss Whedon felt that it was acceptable to have Buffy sleep in the arms of someone who tried to rape her less than a year before. I hate that Joss Whedon used Spike's re-ensoulment to manipulate the audience and the characters into forgiving him so easily. I hate that Spike violated Buffy in such a violent and disgusting way and then, much like the abusive boyfriend who buys flowers after he hits his girlfriend, makes a big gesture to try to allieviate his own guilt. I hate that Season 7 barely mentions or touches on the trauma that Spike inflicted on Buffy. I hate that Joss Whedon has no f***ing idea how to deal with sexual assault. It's not about soul vs. non-soul. It's about the fact that Spike tried to rape Buffy.
But you don't hate Joss with how he handled the Angel/Darla relationship and the fact that Darla raped Angel repeatedly. In fact you like it so much that is your second favorite ship.
And you hate the fact that Spike tried to rape Buffy but love the fact that Angel raped a minor.
:blink:


To siad that Angel is raped Darla is so ridiculous than no other statement I read before:roll:. Darla is Angel's mate for more than a hudred years. She wanted him so badly . Actually Darla the vampire even will be glad if Angel rape her, but he didn't. He never done this, especially in In Reprise .
Your complaints to the writer, not to me.

Effy-Mad-World
23-11-12, 07:00 AM
Angel committed statutory rape. A technical rape, that had they crossed state lines wouldn't even be considered rape, with no violence, no force and no trauma.

Spike tried to commit rape, full stop, in such a way that there was extreme violence and trauma.

Did Darla rape Angel? I don't know. I've never been able to decide.

Last post, I'm leaving.

_Buffy_
23-11-12, 09:22 PM
Zianna, I am not complain to anyone. I just don't get it serious. Not at all. It sounds like a big joke to me.

Rihannon
24-11-12, 12:26 AM
Always thought that Buffy was more inclined to forgive both Angel and Spike than everybody else. And this is one of my favorite things about Buffy: she is a forgiving person (part of her "gift" after all...).

Both vamps managed to screw up their relationships (or potential relationships) with the Scoobies, but not with Buffy. I think this is because she understood them better, and could see them in a way nobody else could.
She resisted the rightful wrath of her loved ones against her vamps, and I believe she was proven right.

She followed her heart and trusted her instincts, and did the right thing... I have to love that. :)

Rihannon
24-11-12, 01:02 AM
Oh, and... this thread is about unpopular opinions, right? Here I go...

1. I think the IDW comics are great, and although some people say they are not cannon, and I don't really know if they are or not, I think they should be because I missed Angel and Spike horribly (mainly Spike) and the comics gave them back to me... and there's not a better option anyway. And I hated that they were barely mentioned during most of season 8, and they made us think the vamps were never coming back. That was the one grudge I held for most of the season (I kind of liked everything else).

2. I actually think the whole Satsu thing was kind of cute.

3. I think Spike losing his soul and getting it back in the 8-issue series was brilliant and made me really happy and proud of being a Spike fan.

I'll be back if I think of something else... :D

BuffySpike
25-11-12, 02:49 PM
Angel committed statutory rape. A technical rape, that had they crossed state lines wouldn't even be considered rape, with no violence, no force and no trauma.

Spike tried to commit rape, full stop, in such a way that there was extreme violence and trauma.

Did Darla rape Angel? I don't know. I've never been able to decide.

Last post, I'm leaving.

So when Angel talks about raping people to death and such and also murdering her friend the year before, torturing her father figure ...its perfectly OK, once he has a soul to be cuddling Buffy a year later in your books but not Spike?...

Artea
25-11-12, 03:50 PM
I'm deeply amused by the fact that an unpopular opinion about how unfeminist the show is (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=646406&postcount=212)...is immediately followed by a heated debate about which pedophile/rapist/murderer is most deserving of the heroine's love. :)

KingofCretins
25-11-12, 04:47 PM
I'm deeply amused by the fact that an unpopular opinion about how unfeminist the show is (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=646406&postcount=212)...is immediately followed by a heated debate about which pedophile/rapist/murderer is most deserving of the heroine's love. :)

There is a Philoso-raptor worthy quality to that observation, I won't lie. Although I think the first of your list is an absurdity, but not just when you say it, when anybody does. That word does not describe a 16 year old in any context.

BuffySpike
25-11-12, 05:34 PM
I'm deeply amused by the fact that an unpopular opinion about how unfeminist the show is (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=646406&postcount=212)...is immediately followed by a heated debate about which pedophile/rapist/murderer is most deserving of the heroine's love. :)

This isn't Twilight. Its not a competition. I just think its stupid to throw stones at one character for something but ignore it when another does the same.

Here's my unpopular opinion.

Anya had it coming when she got turned down at the Alter, people don't murder people for an eternity and then get a happy wedding. She was about to have her heart ripped out and she had it coming.

Skippcomet
28-11-12, 07:14 AM
I don't know how unpopular this is, but I'm glad that the Mutant Enemy writers never had Xander and Cordelia reunite as adults.

Two people who had a rather shallow relationship in high school before one breaks up with the other because he kissed another girl, then spent the following four years without any contact that we saw or heard about (and while he was involved in a much longer, more involved, sexually active, almost-got-married relationship while she went through a series of supernatural pregnancies, a guy who died on her, the Groosalugg, being possesed by Jasmine -- let's not mention Connor -- and becoming an almost-girlfriend and closest friend to Angel), only one mention of one by the other (as a "fixer-upper"), and no signs at all that either missed, thought about, or regretted breaking up with each other. True, they may have grown and matured past what they were like in high school, but that doesn't mean they were in any way, shape, or form any more likely to reunite as a couple than any of millions of high school couples who break up, either.

Rihannon
09-12-12, 08:44 PM
I don't know how unpopular this is, but I'm glad that the Mutant Enemy writers never had Xander and Cordelia reunite as adults.


I don't know if someone wanted them reunited. Maybe some people liked them as a couple, but I agree: as adults, not going to work.

Besides, I think the fandom is divided about the Xander/Dawn, and of course we could go to the pedophile thing here also, but I don't see it that way. Even if he did show some signs of interest in Dawn during the TV series, he really didn't act on them. I think he simply didn't let himself see her by other than the big brother light... until season 8, of course. But she was all grown up by then, so I don't think it was a bad thing.

So, unpopular opinion #4: I absolutely approve the Xawn.

fester75
10-12-12, 12:06 AM
Does anyone else. HATE Spike after he got the chip?

Stoney
10-12-12, 01:09 AM
Does anyone else. HATE Spike after he got the chip?

Absolutely and utterly an emphatic and simply can't be said loud enough, no. Spike is my favourite fictional character of all time, for his entire story. But I'm suspecting that you knew that was a likely answer judging by the thread you posted the thought in. :xd

Rihannon
10-12-12, 03:48 AM
Absolutely and utterly an emphatic and simply can't be said loud enough, no. Spike is my favourite fictional character of all time, for his entire story. But I'm suspecting that you knew that was a likely answer judging by the thread you posted the thought in. :xd

By all means, and so passionately über-absolutely in agreement. I'm physically unable to hate Spike. :D

Sosa lola
10-12-12, 04:12 PM
I don't know how unpopular this is, but I'm glad that the Mutant Enemy writers never had Xander and Cordelia reunite as adults.


Xander and Cordelia meeting as adults is a very popular opinion. Lots of people wish Xander could see how mature Cordelia became and for Cordelia to see how successful Xander became. And personally, I find this meeting far more interesting than yet another Buffy/Angel reunion.

As for a rekindled relationship as adults, I've seen some people root for an adult Xandelia, but I don't think I've seen enough fans to call it a popular opinion.

Stoney
10-12-12, 04:51 PM
I would say, she is dead, but what the hell does that matter if that is where they ever decided they wanted to go. :D

_Buffy_
11-12-12, 10:02 PM
Absolutely and utterly an emphatic and simply can't be said loud enough, no. Spike is my favourite fictional character of all time, for his entire story. But I'm suspecting that you knew that was a likely answer judging by the thread you posted the thought in. :xd



LOL , Such a dynamic and breakdown character. How may someone hats him. I like him still in S 2, LOL. Spike is my favorite male character ever in the TV. After him, I absolutely can't be impressed by anyone else - not Damon, Not Klaus, Not Sam and Dan Winchester, not Edward Cullen. I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion, but the truth - is after Spike and after BTVS I just can't fell in love with another show or with another fictional character. I just watch The Vampire Diaries and Supernatural and Twilight and then I just forget about the episode. But my attitude to my BTVS DVDs is far different. I watch them and keep them safe and it is safe to say that I remember all the single episode from the show. I couldn't say that for another TV show . Even for Angel. Of course, I keep my Angel DVDs too, but it is most of the loyalty to Buffy , because Anel is it's spin-off. I see now how may people are fond of The Vampire Diaries and Supernatural and even The Twilight for example. I have a feeling that " I can't feel anything real " to another show after Buffy anymore. I never watch such a clever and wise and dramaric and painfull show before. If you look closer, you may find many similarities in your own life and you may to realte in one way or another to the any of the character in the show. :heart: Well done, Joss ! :)

Stoney
11-12-12, 10:38 PM
Ah, noone is like Spike. The bugger has spoiled me for other shows/characters too, and I wouldn't have it any other way! :D


Possibly an unpopular opinion... Tara was really supportive and great with Buffy about Spike but she was too rigid and judgemental with Willow about magic. Her approach with her wasn't working and she didn't try hard enough to help (though I agree with her ending the relationship).

Rihannon
12-12-12, 01:11 AM
Ah, noone is like Spike. The bugger has spoiled me for other shows/characters too, and I wouldn't have it any other way! :D

Right there with you!:hug:


Possibly an unpopular opinion... Tara was really supportive and great with Buffy about Spike but she was too rigid and judgemental with Willow about magic. Her approach with her wasn't working and she didn't try hard enough to help (though I agree with her ending the relationship).

I think this is a complicated subject. I do agree with you in how her approach was flawed, but it is really hard to be the partner or family of an addict. I'm not happy to say I'd been there, but true...
God! I always end up writing about myself, but the thing is, what I like the most about the Buffyverse is the way some aspects of life are so precisely and heartbreakingly well depicted, true to the extreme of creepiness.

I always loved Spike, and watched the show now and then because of him, but the show earned my complete admiration and respect (and why not, my passion) with the way they managed to deal with Willow's addiction. Some moments really left me speechless and almost breathless, felt like crying and screaming and it was hurtful in a way, but also therapeutic and liberating, and I loved the show so much because of it. So, I think Tara's actions where well set in the reality of the situation, I understand her completely.
And, of course she did well in ending the relationship, sometimes I yearned for that kind of strength. :)

Artea
14-12-12, 09:21 PM
the show earned my complete admiration and respect (and why not, my passion) with the way they managed to deal with Willow's addiction.Really? So how did you feel about the scene in S7 where Giles literally rides in on his white horse to inform Willow (and the viewers) that it's not an addiction? Seems like the story was more about the dangers of amateur self-diagnosis than about addiction... :)

Jack Shaftoe
14-12-12, 09:56 PM
Yes, addiction was so "precisely" depicted that the "addict" is still using plenty of the "substance" with no ill-effects (at least none that have anything to do with any addiction). I wish real addictions could work like that. And the addiction story was not only a clumsy retcon even before it was re-retconned in S7 (the only time something like that was mentioned before Wrecked was Giles having to summon a very specific demon to get high instead of just casting a spell, any spell or stealing sage or visiting a magic crack den), it also made everyone look like an idiot because they were groping in the dark as if they had never heard of magic addiction either. I mean, if said magic addiction were such a real and common danger as Sam Finn's story about burned out shaman and Willow's remark about spellcaster anonymous implied, it would be mentioned a whole lot in the many books on magic the Scoobies had, Anya and Giles would probably have had personal experience with it, etc.

And there is Willow getting addicted and reaching rock bottom in about a day. So bad it's good, really. :)

KingofCretins
15-12-12, 01:12 AM
Yeah, not sure where it goes on the spectrum of popular or unpopular, but magical addiction was a completely asinine direction to take the path they had been putting Willow on for years. I knew as soon as I watched "Tough Love", that Willow would be a villain at some point the following season, but that's because I foresaw a profound examination of the nature and influence of power itself. Instead I got something that felt a lot more like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bflYjF90t7c) iconic moment in television history.

Stoney
15-12-12, 01:28 AM
...I foresaw a profound examination of the nature and influence of power itself...

But that is the self implosion of the addictive lure of the power focus she chose, no? The very nature of it is control but if it had been the magic itself which was addictive she would have been happy creating bubbles and floating flowers. What we see is the breakdown of the power abuse. But in terms of it not being specifically outwardly spoken, at its apex that is true enough but it was always there and reverted to it. Even in STSP it wasn't about her ability to plug into the magic but it was about her avoidance of the situation, control instinctively taking over reason. It is also entirely believable that despite identifying throughout the control problems a natural human response is to simplify the problem to avoid the difficulty. If it is about magic it is easy to avoid but knowing it isn't about magic is why, at times when the magic is needed enough to outweigh the false premise the pressure is placed and it is required of her again. Totally unsupportive of the real issue but illustrating the lie.

KingofCretins
15-12-12, 01:51 AM
But that is the self implosion of the addictive lure of the power focus she chose, no? The very nature of it is control but if it had been the magic itself which was addictive she would have been happy creating bubbles and floating flowers. What we see is the breakdown of the power abuse. But in terms of it not being specifically outwardly spoken, at its apex that is true enough but it was always there and reverted to it. Even in STSP it wasn't about her ability to plug into the magic but it was about her avoidance of the situation, control instinctively taking over reason. It is also entirely believable that despite identifying throughout the control problems a natural human response is to simplify the problem to avoid the difficulty. If it is about magic it is easy to avoid but knowing it isn't about magic is why, at times when the magic is needed enough to outweigh the false premise the pressure is placed and it is required of her again. Totally unsupportive of the real issue but illustrating the lie.

No, once it became about addiction and enablement, it stopped being about Willow's choices to abuse power, her sense of license power brought, and the consequences to her and those around her. Last scene that really chased that angle directly was her confrontation with Giles. Willow's Season 6 arc up through "Tabula Rasa" was something I was on the edge of my seat for, but "Wrecked" squashed it.

Stoney
15-12-12, 02:06 AM
No, once it became about addiction and enablement, it stopped being about Willow's choices to abuse power, her sense of license power brought, and the consequences to her and those around her. Last scene that really chased that angle directly was her confrontation with Giles. Willow's Season 6 arc up through "Tabula Rasa" was something I was on the edge of my seat for, but "Wrecked" squashed it.

I do know what you mean I just think that the power aspect is irremovably inherent to the issue but they did push away from addressing it into the addiction route. But, as I say, I think that is a natural human response to simplify something in order to feel you have more affectively and decisively averted it. It would still work overall if that false premise rose again to bite them in the butts but I doubt they will head back to it (despite the innate problem still existing).

Rihannon
17-12-12, 01:30 AM
Really? So how did you feel about the scene in S7 where Giles literally rides in on his white horse to inform Willow (and the viewers) that it's not an addiction?

To say the truth, I don't really remember what Giles said then. In any case, I would understand it the same way as many things in the show: they didn't say things clearly (or say one thing and show another one) and left a lot for interpretation. :D


Seems like the story was more about the dangers of amateur self-diagnosis than about addiction... :)

Probably... Still...

:s guys, I lived with an addict for a long time, and believe me, what they showed there was addictive behavior...


Yes, addiction was so "precisely" depicted that the "addict" is still using plenty of the "substance" with no ill-effects (at least none that have anything to do with any addiction). I wish real addictions could work like that.

... and it was precisely shown, from the lies that hurt her loved ones (i.e. OMWF, Tabula Rasa) to leaving Down waiting for her for hours in a dangerous place and (unintentionally) ending up hurting her physically.
Sadly, that was the story of my teen years too, so much that watching Wrecked really shook me... Even if it was rushed and clumsy represented.

And, the way I see it, she doesn't really use the "substance" without unwanted effects, and in fact I see it works exactly the same as it would in a real addiction. What I mean is: there is "magic" and there is "magic", the same as there are "substances" and there are other "substances". As far as I know, Willow can absolutely not use "the" substance without dreadful consequences, and she will have to be very careful to not "fall into it" for the rest of her life, just as any rehabilitated addict would.


And there is Willow getting addicted and reaching rock bottom in about a day. So bad it's good, really. :)

Like I said before, I don't think it was in one episode, the signs were showing much earlier. And believe me, real addictions don't need a lot of time to reach bottom.


I knew as soon as I watched "Tough Love", that Willow would be a villain at some point the following season, but that's because I foresaw a profound examination of the nature and influence of power itself. Instead I got something that felt a lot more like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bflYjF90t7c) iconic moment in television history... ...Willow's Season 6 arc up through "Tabula Rasa" was something I was on the edge of my seat for, but "Wrecked" squashed it.

I see what you are saying, they could do so much better for Willow in the villain department. What happened in Wrecked and what followed was sad and kind of pathetic, and even could be seen as "not the best writing achievements of the season", but I guess it would depend on how each viewer interpreted their approach. Honestly, I didn't see Wrecked coming... at it almost squashed me... but I went through it, and at the end it was kind of liberating...

Somehow, Jessie Spano's scene doesn't have the same effect:).

They decided to do it with magic, but it could be anything else, it would be the same thing to me. Addict behavior is addict behavior, the substance itself is irrelevant. So, maybe it was bad writing, but to me was a very brave thing to do in television, and I personally admire and feel thankful for it. :)

Jack Shaftoe
17-12-12, 03:10 AM
Even if it was rushed and clumsy represented.

You said that the depiction was "precisely and heartbreakingly well depicted". How can that be if it was also "rushed and clumsy represented"?


As far as I know, Willow can absolutely not use "the" substance without dreadful consequences

Really, because from where I am standing it seems to me she has been doing exactly that for years if we count the comics. Yes, there is some lip service paid to her maybe, possibly "going dark" at some point in the future but to my knowledge actual physical addiction doesn't work like that.


As far as I know, Willow can absolutely not use "the" substance without dreadful consequences, and she will have to be very careful to not "fall into it" for the rest of her life, just as any rehabilitated addict would.

Rehabilitated users tend not to use the thing they were addicted to at all. Willow uses it every day. If someone skips S6 and the first episode of S7 they might never suspect she was ever addicted in the first place because the possible ill effects depicted post-S6 have nothing to do with those in S6. Nowadays she has no desire to cast for sake of casting (i.e. to get high), she just runs some risk of getting sort of possessed by the big bad magic when the writer decides it's time for that nonsense. There is no rhyme or reason to it, just a bit of nerfing because she is way overpowered.


Honestly, I didn't see Wrecked coming...

Apparently few people did since the writers clearly changed their minds mid-season. Though, to be honest, I suspect the original "Willow is EVIL! Power corrupts! Always, yo!" would have been even more painful for me to watch. At least the addiction was kind of funny, albeit in a "so bad, it's good" way.


I would understand it the same way as many things in the show: they didn't say things clearly (or say one thing and show another one) and left a lot for interpretation.

Isn't that part of the problem, though - if magic addiction is such a common phenomenon as S6 implied, it's awful worldbuilding to leave this open to interpretation. If I need to describe to some alien how life are things here on earth I won't tell them "Well buddy, alcoholism is a real thing, millions suffer from it...except maybe nobody does. Depending on the episode. Open to interpretation, you know". :) When characters in say The Wire suffer from drug addiction or alcoholism, their friends don't wonder what this strange new phenomenon is or grope in the dark. Because everybody knows what those things are. In the Buffyverse every magic user with some knowledge should know if the magic addiction is a real thing or Willow deluding herself.