Why Did Angel come back from Hell?

[Salvation]

I wanna know why Angel was back from hell ,was it bcuz the Power That Be still have unfinished work with Angel with the whole Shanshu prophecy & the whole that he is an important with big fight Good vs Evil?

Or as many would say & believe & i,m one of them that Buffy's love was the main reason that he was back ,it could be true if you share that kind of love that Bangel have miracels happend.

So tell me what you think about it?

[KingofCretins]

I personally think that the First brought Angel back, exactly as it claimed in "Amends". I don't believe that the Powers took action to intervene in his destiny until the end of the episode when the snow came to save him from himself.

My reasoning is pretty simple. Ignoring that the storyline was eventually dropped with no explanation, the First clearly had a big yen for a vampire with a soul. In "Amends" and in Season 7, its attention was almost singularly fixed on controlling and corrupting a vampire with a soul to ignore its conscience and give in to its demon. In both cases, its plan called for the instrument of that corruption to be killing and draining Buffy ("Amends", "Sleeper"). Since it clearly had that as a goal, it makes perfect sense that it would have drawn Angel back from whatever hell dimension Buffy sent him to in "Becoming, Part II".

However, when Angel resisted, I think that the Powers saw the potential that he had and intervened to make him their champion. As is more toward their habit, rather than doing this very overtly, it was done subtly, by changing the basic rules at the key moment. In this case, it was making it snow. Later, in "Epiphany" (Angel Season 2), it would be Angel being able to enter a home uninvited to save a woman's life.

I don't think Buffy's love for Angel at the time had much to do with it one way or another -- if that alone could affect their reality, I tend to think Buffy would have remembered the events of "I Will Remember You". As it is, her love made it possible for him to start on that path by inspiring him to help her and by stalling any direct attempt he might have made to kill himself if he got tired of waiting for sunrise.

[vampmogs]

I think it was the Powers that brought Angel back.

Firstly, I don't believe the First would bring Angel back so that he could have another go at trying to kill Buffy, it doesn't make sense to me. Why would the First bring Angel back and wait half a year to try and do anything with him? Why not try and influence Angel when he was confused and in a feral state? It doesn't make sense to me that the First would take this long to do something with Angel when it exploited Spike when he wasn't in the right frame of mind.

Secondly, the First says this isn't the plan but it will do, when Angel goes to kill himself. If the First's plan was to turn Angel dark and kill Buffy how would him killing himself and becoming useless do at all? If anything it is completely doing the opposite to what the First wanted. However, if the powers were responsible and the First tried to turn Angel dark so they didn't have another good warrior, either having that warrior turn dark or offing himself would do fine for the First.

It makes sense to me that the Powers would bring Angel back to be their champion. When the First tried to exploit the situation and Angel went to kill himself, the Powers intervened and made the snow.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I'm pretty sure it was the first. I also don't think it necessarily had anything to do with the fact that they were vampires with souls. I mean the vampire part was probably useful since that meant the first could take their guise if desired, but I lean towards the idea that the primary purpose was to weaken Buffy by messing with those she cared about.

[Ojuice5001]

I don't think Buffy's love for Angel at the time had much to do with it one way or another -- if that alone could affect their reality, I tend to think Buffy would have remembered the events of "I Will Remember You".

It seems like the writers were trying to imply that it did, however. Many people read that message into the fact that Angel's reappearance happens immediately after Buffy visits Angel's mansion and leaves the ring behind. That's a rather indirect line of evidence, but it's something.

As it is, her love made it possible for him to start on that path by inspiring him to help her and by stalling any direct attempt he might have made to kill himself if he got tired of waiting for sunrise.

Not to mention allowing him to recover from the feral, crazed state of mind he showed in Beauty and the Beasts. Without Buffy, Angel would have stayed in that state much longer, and would have been totally vulnerable to manipulation by the First, just like what we saw with S7 Spike.

[vampmogs]

It seems like the writers were trying to imply that it did, however. Many people read that message into the fact that Angel's reappearance happens immediately after Buffy visits Angel's mansion and leaves the ring behind. That's a rather indirect line of evidence, but it's something.

But how would Buffy's love be strong enough to open up the gateways to a hell dimension and release Angel from endless torment? It doesn't really make sense to me. Besides, Buffy went to Angel's mansion to let him go, so she could move on with her life. I'm not suggesting she didn't love him but she was attempting to move on, if anything why would this bring Angel back?

Not to mention allowing him to recover from the feral, crazed state of mind he showed in Beauty and the Beasts. Without Buffy, Angel would have stayed in that state much longer, and would have been totally vulnerable to manipulation by the First, just like what we saw with S7 Spike.

Giles states it takes someone of extraordinary character to come back from eternal torment and get over it, I think it had a lot to do with Angel's inner strength although some of it had to do with Buffy. Regardless, being inspired by his love for Buffy in no way compares to said love managing to break through dimensional gateways. That'd take some pretty powerful mojo, which the Powers would have and possibly The First. Angel is known to be a pretty strong character on the inside no matter what he or the First tried to make him believe. Angel managed to regain his sanity after a hundred years of torture and three months at the bottom of the ocean, and whilst he did try and commit suicide, unlike Spike Angel was able to break free from the First on his own.

[sherrilina]

I think it was the Powers that brought Angel back.

Firstly, I don't believe the First would bring Angel back so that he could have another go at trying to kill Buffy, it doesn't make sense to me. Why would the First bring Angel back and wait half a year to try and do anything with him? Why not try and influence Angel when he was confused and in a feral state? It doesn't make sense to me that the First would take this long to do something with Angel when it exploited Spike when he wasn't in the right frame of mind.

Secondly, the First says this isn't the plan but it will do, when Angel goes to kill himself. If the First's plan was to turn Angel dark and kill Buffy how would him killing himself and becoming useless do at all? If anything it is completely doing the opposite to what the First wanted. However, if the powers were responsible and the First tried to turn Angel dark so they didn't have another good warrior, either having that warrior turn dark or offing himself would do fine for the First.

It makes sense to me that the Powers would bring Angel back to be their champion. When the First tried to exploit the situation and Angel went to kill himself, the Powers intervened and made the snow.
I rather like this explanation--makes sense to me. I don't think we should always take what evil and deliberately manipulative characters say for granted as the truth--and so I don't think we should automatically believe the First when it says it brought Angel back anymore than we should believe everything that Skip says.

Plus there is the whole Shanshu prophecy, the things the oracles said, etc, that would indicate an investment in Angel by the PTB--that's also why they were willing to do soemthing as drastic as write over a day, just to keep Angel as their champion. It seems that the Powers had already taken an interest in Angel in the first place when they sent Whistler (who, considering that they originally intended him to be in Doyle's place on ATS, I think we can take for granted as a similar agent of the PTB) to Angel to work for their cause and help the Slayer. So if they were willing to recruit him then, then have Whistler tell Buffy how to send Angel to hell to save the world for the time being...they probably then went in and got him, as they still needed him.

In any case, it's very lame and annoying that that storyline (like many season 7 ones) was just dropped and left to be vague.

[ciderdrinker]

It seems that the Powers had already taken an interest in Angel in the first place when they sent Whistler (who, considering that they originally intended him to be in Doyle's place on ATS, I think we can take for granted as a similar agent of the PTB) to Angel to work for their cause and help the Slayer. So if they were willing to recruit him then, then have Whistler tell Buffy how to send Angel to hell to save the world for the time being...they probably then went in and got him, as they still needed him.


Whistler: It wasn't supposed to go down like this.....I figured this for Angel's big day. But I thought he was here to stop Acathla, not to bring him forth.

and

Buffy: What are you, just some immortal demon sent down to even the score between good and evil?
Whistler: Wow. Good guess.

Whistler was definately aware of a plan for Angel, and he more or less states he works for the PTB here.

I've always thought that the PTB were interested in Angelus from the outset. I can't give an explanation for why they would've been interested in Liam originally, but it always seemed fated to me that a loser (Liam) became an ultra-formidable vampire who was "cut down" in his prime by a spell to give him a soul that seems to never have been performed before or since.

Doesn't it seem odd that after the gypsies realised that they had succeeded in causing eternal torment to a vampire, that they would never do it again? Is it possible that the PTB had a hand in making the spell work just that one time? (Obviously, it did work again but - to our knowledge - only ever on Angel)

Skip says in "Birthday" that the PTB missed Doyle passing on the visions to Cordelia, so isn't it also possible that they missed what was going on with Buffy and Angel and the fact that he would lose his soul when he slept with her. They are clearly not omnipotent (or they wouldn't need a champion anyway) so they had to allow things to continue on their course until the re-ensoulment of Angel, and his subsequant banishment to hell. It was then that they could act and return him to the earthly dimension, where he could continue his work for them. I believe that the First just used it as an opportunity to get one back at the PTB, in the same way that Jasmine manipulated Cordelia's ascendency to bring forth a slave state on Earth

If we think about this, it seems a shame that Angel believes in Season 5 that "the powers are not in my corner anymore", when they have obviously invested so much time and effort on him! Or maybe, he just didn't turn out to be the champion they thought he would be?

[sherrilina]

If we think about this, it seems a shame that Angel believes in Season 5 that "the powers are not in my corner anymore", when they have obviously invested so much time and effort on him! Or maybe, he just didn't turn out to be the champion they thought he would be?
Well again, it's hard to tell how much of what Skip says is true or just deception...but Whistler (who I think is much more trustworthy) does state that the PTB were thrown by Angel losing his soul, and obviously they were thrown for a loop when it came to Jasmine as well (thoguh they eventually got their act together and sent Darla to Connor, though it was too late by then).

I think the problem is that the powers didn't invest enough in him--or that their style is too "sit back and watch" rather than intervening. I don't think Angel could ever forgive the Powers for not stepping in and preventing the Jasmine situation with Cordy (which of course cut him deep given his love for Cordy), or for not intervening in that sooner, even when the victim herself, Cordy, obviously forgives them and still remains loyal to them in YW. But then again, it's not until episode 12 or so, when Angel is about to quit and get killed by Lindsey's plan (which is about to go into effect), that the Powers finally step in by waking Cordy up with an important vision to help alert Angel to Lindsey, get him to believe in himself again and "back on track," and to pass on one final vision to him to help him know what to do. But then again they also were pretty last minute in sending Whistler to Sunnydale--I think in general the PTB are very last-minute in their actions, b/c they would rather sit by and watch and not intervene in Earthly affairs--they'l only do so when there's absolutely no choice in the matter, and sometimes that's just too late, as seen in Inside Out.....

So I think it's b/c Angel was mad at the Powers for letting Jasmine happen and for this attitude, and that they were still employing this attitude in season 5, up until YW, that Angel had lost faith to such a degree in the PTB--I don't think it was b/c he was lacking....

[Charmed_Forever]

Yeah he may have came back to overcome Evil, just to make a statment that he is good so Buffy will love him. Thats what he wants Buffy back right?

He may have to win buffy's trust back soi the way to do it is to overcome evil to show buffy that he is not evil anymore :D

[vampmogs]

Yeah he may have came back to overcome Evil, just to make a statment that he is good so Buffy will love him. Thats what he wants Buffy back right?

He may have to win buffy's trust back soi the way to do it is to overcome evil to show buffy that he is not evil anymore :D

Angel had no part in being brought back, he doesn't know why he was brought back or who brought him back. So whilst Angel does want to good and did want to be their for Buffy, he had no part in coming back from Hell.

One could argue that was one of the points of 'Amends.' ;)

[redrevo]

I really think it was the First. I haven't heard much about the PTB but it seemed like a rather cruel idea to wait until Buffy let go of Angel, then send him back down. After messing with Buffy's mind, they thought they could use Buffy's apparent "letting-go" to make Angel go back to his normal, Angelus state. I'm thinking they didn't count on Buffy trying to get Angel back and caring about his fate that much.

[Charmed_Forever]

I thin Angel, came out of hell because maybe there was still something missing like buffy, or he had to be on the earth for a reason maybe to help Spike but also maybe to help buffy even Angel didn't know why he was brought back so the question is still up in the air or down underground in this sitiation :D

[Nostalgia]

I've always been under the impression that the First had brought back Angel.. it ties in with everything that happens in that episode.. otherwise if we state that The Powers That Be brought Angel back, it renders Amends useless.

Originally Posted by vampmogs
Secondly, the First says this isn't the plan but it will do, when Angel goes to kill himself. If the First's plan was to turn Angel dark and kill Buffy how would him killing himself and becoming useless do at all? If anything it is completely doing the opposite to what the First wanted. However, if the powers were responsible and the First tried to turn Angel dark so they didn't have another good warrior, either having that warrior turn dark or offing himself would do fine for the First.

Don't you think the First would settle for a suicide if it cannot get what it wants? The First obviously looks disappointed when he sees that he cannot persuade Angel to work for him.. but considering it is the incarnation.. if it can eliminate a huge part of Buffy's life.. as well as an enemy.. I am sure it would prefer that then for him to live helping the world. The First knows Angel is strong.. why not settle for 2nd?

Angel managed to regain his sanity after a hundred years of torture and three months at the bottom of the ocean, and whilst he did try and commit suicide, unlike Spike Angel was able to break free from the First on his own.

Angel overcame the First by attempting to commit suicide?

[kana]

Well to be honest it could be both. Both are interested in the vampire with a soul and both of them could use him for a purpose. Giles says FE has the power to bring Angel back and they are the only one's who take the credit for it. As someone said it would have been the perfect way to destroy Buffy. Just as she's moving on bring him back, let her get attached to him again (which is why FE would have waited till Amends) and then have Angel(us) destroy her)

I agree that settling for suicide still doesn't contradict the idea of FE bringing Angel back because what else could they do? If they could emotionally destroy Buffy and eliminate a possible warrior for good, that's not a bad plan B.

The PTBs could also be responsible. They have both the power and an interest to bring him back.

Wesley: There's a design Angel....and you have your place in it.

[sherrilina]

The PTBs could also be responsible. They have both the power and an interest to bring him back.

Wesley: There's a design Angel....and you have your place in it.
Not to mention the fact that we already see the PTB taking an active interest in Angel in season 2 through Whistler, who undoubtedly was an agent of the PTB like Doyle was, getting Angel to work for them even then. Whistler also states that Angelus wasn't supposed to turn evil, that he was supposed to have defeated Acafla--which shows there was already a plan for Angel even then, but that it had goen wrong--and then Whistler tells Buffy how to send Angel to hell to fix the situation. It seems to me that the PTB realized they screwed up, made sure the problem was contained at the last minute, then, after having Buffy send Angel to hell, they got him out again (obviously they knew where he was since they told Buffy where to put him and how!) to get him back to work--probably waiting a while b/c either they had to for technical reasons, or they wanted Buffy to be moving on before they did b/c they needed Angel working apart, and didn't want anythign to happen to cause Angelus again.

[KingofCretins]

Angel didn't overcome *anything* in "Amends". The First openly stated it was satisfied with him killing himself. Buffy was not successful in talking him out of it. The snow and just the snow prevented him being finished.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by KingofCretins
Angel didn't overcome *anything* in "Amends". The First openly stated it was satisfied with him killing himself. Buffy was not successful in talking him out of it. The snow and just the snow prevented him being finished.

That's exactly what I said.. even though Angel still stayed alive.. he was going to commit suicide regardless of Buffy's love for him. If anything The First completely manipulated him.. and even than he did with Spike. He had control of Spike.. but it was without Spike's consent. With Angel.. Angel knew what he was doing.. he wasn't being used like a puppet.

And back to vampmogs' comment.. Spike did overcome The First by himself.. in Lies My Parents Told Me, he goes through his past visions in his head.. ultimately realizing that he's not a pawn anymore.

[vampmogs]

I've always been under the impression that the First had brought back Angel.. it ties in with everything that happens in that episode.. otherwise if we state that The Powers That Be brought Angel back, it renders Amends useless.

No it doesn't, regardless of wether the First or the Powers brought Angel back the episode addresses issues with Oz and Willow, gets Buffy and Angel back together, introduces a major big bad, addresses Angel's situation and has a major theme of inner-strength and fighting pain.

Don't you think the First would settle for a suicide if it cannot get what it wants? The First obviously looks disappointed when he sees that he cannot persuade Angel to work for him.. but considering it is the incarnation.. if it can eliminate a huge part of Buffy's life.. as well as an enemy.. I am sure it would prefer that then for him to live helping the world. The First knows Angel is strong.. why not settle for 2nd?

The First lies constantly throughout s7, why is it so hard to believe the First would suddenly lie now about bringing Angel back? It had a chance to take a powerful warrior away from the powers and failed, hence it had no problem with Angel killing himself to eliminate that threat. The Powers rarely ever intervene with the earthly dimension but have done with Angel on a number of occasions, why is it so hard to believe they were the ones to bring Angel back when they've been interested in him from the beginning?


Angel overcame the First by attempting to commit suicide?

Not the most conventional forms of strength but yes he did, the First tried to make Angel kill Buffy and turn dark. It tried to drive him insane like it did Spike and almost succeeded, however Angel refused to give in and the First failed at its attempt.

That's exactly what I said.. even though Angel still stayed alive.. he was going to commit suicide regardless of Buffy's love for him. If anything The First completely manipulated him.. and even than he did with Spike. He had control of Spike.. but it was without Spike's consent. With Angel.. Angel knew what he was doing.. he wasn't being used like a puppet.

The First manipulated Spike in more ways than just the trigger. The First was driving Spike insane in the basement just like it tried to drive Angel insane in 'Amends'. The First didn't have physical control over Spike then, only when it used the trigger on Spike. Nor was the First's plan ever to make Angel commit suicide, when it realised it couldn't control Angel it settled, stating "it will do." So how did the First ever manipulate Angel? It just settled for something it couldn't talk Angel out of doing.

And back to vampmogs' comment.. Spike did overcome The First by himself.. in Lies My Parents Told Me, he goes through his past visions in his head.. ultimately realizing that he's not a pawn anymore.

Spike wouldn't have overcome the First if it hadn't been for Giles' stone and Willow's spell, it revealed to him the source of the trigger. Spike then later gives credit to Wood's aid, stating "thanks Doc you cured me after all." Without Willow and Giles' help, Spike wouldn't have ever had those past visions.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by vampmogs
The First lies constantly throughout s7, why is it so hard to believe the First would suddenly lie now about bringing Angel back? It had a chance to take a powerful warrior away from the powers and failed, hence it had no problem with Angel killing himself to eliminate that threat. The Powers rarely ever intervene with the earthly dimension but have done with Angel on a number of occasions, why is it so hard to believe they were the ones to bring Angel back when they've been interested in him from the beginning?

Because.. why would Joss have the First lie? What purpose would that serve? Obviously the idea had came across his mind.. so it just physically wouldn't make sense for him to mention something as powerful as that and have it be a lie... unless it had some further purpose down the road.. which it didn't. I really regret that they never dived deeper into the First/Angel relationship. It could of definetly been mentioned in season seven.. especially with the crossovers.

Not the most conventional forms of strength but yes he did, the First tried to make Angel kill Buffy and turn dark. It tried to drive him insane like it did Spike and almost succeeded, however Angel refused to give in and the First failed at its attempt.

I'm sorry but that's not overcoming.. that's settling for death. Despite the fact the First had been torturing Angel.. which is definetly proof that he isn't entirely blame worthy of being a coward.. Angel still gave up on life. He gave up on attempting to save the world.. making redemption.. "Amends." Suicide is never a succeed.. it may have prevented himself from killing Buffy.. but a truely won battle would be if he was to walk away from the First with the realization that he has a bigger purpose and that he can make up for his sins. As KoC stated, he didn't "overcome" anything. The fact that the First was still happy obviously shows that Angel still has succumbed to its desire.. just not the main desire it had wanted.

The First manipulated Spike in more ways than just the trigger. The First was driving Spike insane in the basement just like it tried to drive Angel insane in 'Amends'. The First didn't have physical control over Spike then, only when it used the trigger on Spike. Nor was the First's plan ever to make Angel commit suicide, when it realised it couldn't control Angel it settled, stating "it will do." So how did the First ever manipulate Angel? It just settled for something it couldn't talk Angel out of doing.

I'd like to see what your opinions on suicide are.. because to me it seems as if you don't see it as it should be necessary a guilty thing for the committer. I know I don't.. and this is why I am not stating that Angel is a coward.. especially considering he was being tortured by the First. However, manipulating Angel by making him feel so guilty to wait for the sun to rise. Did Spike ever give up and try to commit suicide? No, he accepted Buffy's invitation to Xander's apartment.

Spike wouldn't have overcome the First if it hadn't been for Giles' stone and Willow's spell, it revealed to him the source of the trigger. Spike then later gives credit to Wood's aid, stating "thanks Doc you cured me after all." Without Willow and Giles' help, Spike wouldn't have ever had those past visions.
You're right.. I am wrong. Spike definetly overcame The First with help from Giles and Willow.. along with Wood if you want to get technical. However, at least Spike was able to accept help... rather than give up on his duties.

Also, overall.. there is just more evidence leaning towards the First resurrecting Angel.. specifically... you know.. in the script.

[vampmogs]

Because.. why would Joss have the First lie? What purpose would that serve? Obviously the idea had came across his mind.. so it just physically wouldn't make sense for him to mention something as powerful as that and have it be a lie... unless it had some further purpose down the road.. which it didn't. I really regret that they never dived deeper into the First/Angel relationship. It could of definetly been mentioned in season seven.. especially with the crossovers.

Joss had the First appear as Joyce and lie to Dawn just for the hell of it. Why couldn't he have the First do the same thing with Angel? There is also that wacky notion that the First was simply a plot device so that Joss could show what he wanted to show; Angel's past, the snow scene and at least addressing the issue of why Angel was brought back and still give us no definite answer.


I'm sorry but that's not overcoming.. that's settling for death. Despite the fact the First had been torturing Angel.. which is definetly proof that he isn't entirely blame worthy of being a coward.. Angel still gave up on life. He gave up on attempting to save the world.. making redemption.. "Amends." Suicide is never a succeed.. it may have prevented himself from killing Buffy.. but a truely won battle would be if he was to walk away from the First with the realization that he has a bigger purpose and that he can make up for his sins. As KoC stated, he didn't "overcome" anything. The fact that the First was still happy obviously shows that Angel still has succumbed to its desire.. just not the main desire it had wanted.

Angel had never stated he wanted to seek redemption or save the world, he didn't fully accept that responsibility until he moved to LA. He came to Sunnydale to protect Buffy, not the world and he believed he was risking her life. The First being happy in no way demonstrates that Angel succumbed to its desire, its desire was to turn Angel dark. If it were the First's desire it wouldn't have yelled at Angel saying "this isn't the plan!" The First settled, it's evil it isn't going to be broken up about a good guy offing himself, doesn't mean this is what it wanted.

I'd like to see what your opinions on suicide are.. because to me it seems as if you don't see it has a necessary bad thing on the committer. I know I don't.. and this is why I am not stating that Angel is a coward.. especially considering he was being tortured by the First. However, manipulating Angel by making him feel so guilty to wait for the sun to rise. Did Spike ever give up and try to commit suicide? No, he accepted Buffy's invitation to Xander's apartment.

This is the Buffyverse, my opinion on suicide is going to be greatly different to my opinion on the same matter in a real-world context. Just as my opinion on students harbouring lethal weapons in their backpacks and having relationships with older men would be in a real-world context. The First never manipulated Angel into waiting for the sun to rise, Angel came to that decision on his own against the First's wishes.

And yes Spike basically did try and commit suicide, he opened up his jacket and told Buffy to stake him.

You're right.. I am wrong. Spike definetly overcame The First with help from Giles and Willow.. along with Wood if you want to get technical. However, at least Spike was able to accept help... rather than give up on his duties.

Spike didn't have any duties and nor did Angel at the time Amends took place. Furthermore, when has Angel been unwilling to accept that Buffy tried to save him from committing suicide or that he did try and commit suicide? He has no problem saying it in Chosen.

Also, overall.. there is just more evidence leaning towards the First resurrecting Angel.. specifically... you know.. in the script.

The script also states; "Some big evil takes credit for bringing you back and you just by it, give in?" ;)

It has never been stated who brought Angel back, hence the reason for this thread taking place. Furthermore, there is no more evidence to suggest the First brought Angel back other than the fact it says it did, in which Buffy immediately counters by saying it may indeed just be trying to take credit. There is however, evidence suggesting the PTB were responsible seeing that they've constantly interfered with Angel's life before and have been interested in him from the start.

[Nostalgia]

Originally posted by vampmogs
Joss had the First appear as Joyce and lie to Dawn just for the hell of it. Why couldn't he have the First do the same thing with Angel? There is also that wacky notion that the First was simply a plot device so that Joss could show what he wanted to show; Angel's past, the snow scene and at least addressing the issue of why Angel was brought back and still give us no definite answer.

"For the hell of it" applying to the Dawn situation would mean a lot less than in Angel's situation. I just don't buy into the fact that an idea like this would be toyed around in the show.. and have an episode clearly about whether redemption is worth something not center around the one thing that is trying to convince Angel it's not.

Angel had never stated he wanted to seek redemption or save the world, he didn't fully accept that responsibility until he moved to LA. He came to Sunnydale to protect Buffy, not the world and he believed he was risking her life. The First being happy in no way demonstrates that Angel succumbed to its desire, its desire was to turn Angel dark. If it were the First's desire it wouldn't have yelled at Angel saying "this isn't the plan!" The First settled, it's evil it isn't going to be broken up about a good guy offing himself, doesn't mean this is what it wanted.

Just because the First had the essential goal to turn Angel dark doesn't mean it didn't have this on its mind. We all know the First is very smart. Despite what was the plan, Angel still succumbed to the First's power over him. The fact that he was going to give up.. That's not succumbing? That's not weakness? Then what is?


This is the Buffyverse, my opinion on suicide is going to be greatly different to my opinion on the same matter in a real-world context. Just as my opinion on students harbouring lethal weapons in their backpacks and having relationships with older men would be in a real-world context. The First never manipulated Angel into waiting for the sun to rise, Angel came to that decision on his own against the First's wishes.

So you're saying that manipulation is based purely without consciousness? That you cannot manipulate someone by telling them lies and convincing them that life isn't worth working hard to make amends because in the end there is no reward?

And yes Spike basically did try and commit suicide, he opened up his jacket and told Buffy to stake him.

Begging someone to kill you and actually physically attempting to do it are two completely different things. The other difference here is the simple fact that Angel, despite Buffy's tears, love for him and emotion still remains waiting for the sun. While, Spike on the other hand.. accepts Buffy's invitation to help him.


The script also states; "Some big evil takes credit for bringing you back and you just by it, give in?" ;)

It has never been stated who brought Angel back, hence the reason for this thread taking place. Furthermore, there is no more evidence to suggest the First brought Angel back other than the fact it says it did, in which Buffy immediately counters by saying it may indeed just be trying to take credit. There is however, evidence suggesting the PTB were responsible seeing that they've constantly interfered with Angel's life before and have been interested in him from the start.

Kudos. However, I'd still like to see in the scripts actually lean towards any possibility of the PTB bringing Angel back.

[vampmogs]

"For the hell of it" applying to the Dawn situation would mean a lot less than in Angel's situation. I just don't buy into the fact that an idea like this would be toyed around in the show.. and have an episode clearly about whether redemption is worth something not center around the one thing that is trying to convince Angel it's not.

The First trying to convince Angel that redemption isn't worth it in no way means it was responsible for bringing him back. The First could have just as easily seen the PTB bringing Angel back and tried to exploit the situation to it's own advantage when, like the PTB, it saw what huge potential Angel had of fighting evil.

Just because the First had the essential goal to turn Angel dark doesn't mean it didn't have this on its mind. We all know the First is very smart. Despite what was the plan, Angel still succumbed to the First's power over him. The fact that he was going to give up.. That's not succumbing? That's not weakness? Then what is?

The First ended up having no control over him, the First tells him to wait and that it isn't the plan and Angel refuses to listen, opting to commit suicide rather than doing what the First wanted him to do. That is directly pushing aside the First for a more unconventional means out, regardless of the path he took in the end it wasn't the Firsts. The First wanted Angel to turn dark and kill Buffy, Angel refused and wouldn't listen to the First try and talk him out of it; therefore he never succumb to the First. The definition of the word has little relevance if you aren't even sure in which context it is implied. He didn't give up and do what the First wanted him to do, he gave up on the world.


So you're saying that manipulation is based purely without consciousness? That you cannot manipulate someone by telling them lies and convincing them that life isn't worth working hard to make amends because in the end there is no reward?

Sure you can but this wasn't what the First was trying to do. The First was trying to manipulate Angel into turning dark, to give into the darkness and take Buffy. Angel refused, therefore he was in no way manipulated by the First.


Begging someone to kill you and actually physically attempting to do it are two completely different things. The other difference here is the simple fact that Angel, despite Buffy's tears, love for him and emotion still remains waiting for the sun. While, Spike on the other hand.. accepts Buffy's invitation to help him.

Well no not really, in the end both result in one condemning themselves to death. Asking for someone to kill you has the same result of killing yourself, you opting for death either way. If anything else in a strange kind of way it demonstrates Spike was to weak to do it himself.

Whilst Spike accepts Buffy's invitation he then persist in trying to have her kill him again, he asks for her to do the same thing later in Never Leave Me down in the basement.

Kudos. However, I'd still like to see in the scripts actually lean towards any possibility of the PTB bringing Angel back.

We never had any specific reference to the PTB at this point, but it could be very likely Joss had at least thought of them up considering he had been planning Ats since the end of season two. There was obviously some greater force at work here who saved Angel, snow doesn't fall over Southern California like it did. Since we have no actual proof that the First or the PTB brought Angel back fans can fanwank this the best they like. The PTB have interfered with Angel's life many times before, they wanted him as their champion and before he died had sent Whistler down to get him back on track. It makes sense that they would have brought him back to life and then set things in motion for him to move to LA. The First had never interfered with Angel before his death and never bothered to try and interfere with him against whilst the PTB did so before and after his death. It makes sense it would be them, they always had an invested interest in him.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by vampmogs
The First ended up having no control over him, the First tells him to wait and that it isn't the plan and Angel refuses to listen, opting to commit suicide rather than doing what the First wanted him to do. That is directly pushing aside the First for a more unconventional means out, regardless of the path he took in the end it wasn't the Firsts. The First wanted Angel to turn dark and kill Buffy, Angel refused and wouldn't listen to the First try and talk him out of it; therefore he never succumb to the First. The definition of the word has little relevance if you aren't even sure in which context it is implied. He didn't give up and do what the First wanted him to do, he gave up on the world

Having control on someone isn't as clear cut as you make it seem. What I am saying is that the First manipulated Angel, to the point where Angel had gone and killed himself. Choosing a negative alternative route in no way clarifies that Angel had overcome the First. The First was saying other things to him besides telling him to kill Buffy and go dark. He was also making him feel like a complete loser.. saying that he isn't worth living for. Thus, Angel had given into the First. He attempted to off himself, something that The First seemed very happy about. "Giving in" and "succumbing" to the First in no way has to be applied to one motivation. Okay.. Angel didn't turn evil. There are many other ways he succumbed to the First. This being a very big one.

Let me say this:
A man is told by his friend to light a building on fire.. After convincing and convincing the friend cannot get him to do it. So instead, the man spray paints the building completely, deficating it and tarnishing it. The friend is upset, but still very excited. Did the man overcome the friend's motivations to light the building on fire? Of course. Did the man overcome the friend's motivations to do something wrong? No.

Well no not really, in the end both result in one condemning themselves to death. Asking for someone to kill you has the same result of killing yourself, you opting for death either way. If anything else in a strange kind of way it demonstrates Spike was to weak to do it himself.

Whilst Spike accepts Buffy's invitation he then persist in trying to have her kill him again, he asks for her to do the same thing later in Never Leave Me down in the basement.

I don't understand how you can put someone asking a person to kill them in the same category and attempted suicide. This just doesn't make sense to me.

As for Spike's persistence with asking Buffy to kill him.. When Angel had attempted suicide, nothing could have stopped him.. Buffy could have said a million "I believe in you's," but Angel would never had given in. She practically did. With Spike, she had told him that she knew that he was a good man deep down inside.. something that was addressed in the final scene in "Amends," only with more emotion and tears rolling down her face. For Angel to commit suicide would have been being extremely selfish and weak, considering he never reconciled with Buffy after she had told him how important her was.

We never had any specific reference to the PTB at this point, but it could be very likely Joss had at least thought of them up considering he had been planning Ats since the end of season two. There was obviously some greater force at work here who saved Angel, snow doesn't fall over Southern California like it did. Since we have no actual proof that the First or the PTB brought Angel back fans can fanwank this the best they like. The PTB have interfered with Angel's life many times before, they wanted him as their champion and before he died had sent Whistler down to get him back on track. It makes sense that they would have brought him back to life and then set things in motion for him to move to LA. The First had never interfered with Angel before his death and never bothered to try and interfere with him against whilst the PTB did so before and after his death. It makes sense it would be them, they always had an invested interest in him.

I very much agree with KoC with this one.. in that the PTB interfered with the snow in order to prevent the First from convincing Angel to kill himself.

[vampmogs]

Having control on someone isn't as clear cut as you make it seem. What I am saying is that the First manipulated Angel, to the point where Angel had gone and killed himself. Choosing a negative alternative route in no way clarifies that Angel had overcome the First. The First was saying other things to him besides telling him to kill Buffy and go dark. He was also making him feel like a complete loser.. saying that he isn't worth living for. Thus, Angel had given into the First. He attempted to off himself, something that The First seemed very happy about. "Giving in" and "succumbing" to the First in no way has to be applied to one motivation. Okay.. Angel didn't turn evil. There are many other ways he succumbed to the First. This being a very big one.

The First stated its intentions and they were to turn Angel dark. Telling him how worthless he was and how weak he was, was all done to make Angel give in and take Buffy. The First's intentions were to bring Angel down to a point where he didn't believe he was strong enough to fight the demon; hence letting it take over and making Angel give into that darkness. The First never had the intention to make Angel commit suicide, hence stating this isn't the plan. The First never said this isn't the main plan or the first plan, it stated this isn't the plan. By refusing to do this the First was unable to manipulate him and settled for the next best thing; yet it never intended for this thing to happen thus, it never manipulated Angel into taking this route.

Basically it is like me trying to manipulate someone into getting an ice-cream. Instead the person refuses to do this and decides he’d rather kill himself than ever get me that ice-cream. My intentions were never to make this person kill themselves and now I don’t have my ice-cream. However, I’m evil so I’m not that broken up with it and shrugs it off anyway. However, I could never say I manipulated that person into doing that because all I wanted was for him to get that ice-cream, it may have resulted in that person trying to kill themselves but nothing I did was done to reach that goal and hence I can’t take credit for it.

Angel believed this was the first strong act he had ever done, because he had overcome what the First wanted and Angel believed he deserved to die. Basically your trying to make the First take credit for Angel committing suicide the same which in why I believe the First tried to take credit for bringing Angel back.

Let me say this:
A man is told by his friend to light a building on fire.. After convincing and convincing the friend cannot get him to do it. So instead, the man spray paints the building completely, deficating it and tarnishing it. The friend is upset, but still very excited. Did the man overcome the friend's motivations to light the building on fire? Of course. Did the man overcome the friend's motivations to do something wrong? No.

It depends if you view Angel committing suicide as wrong or not, isn't that based entirely on Angel's perception? Furthermore, the example doesn't really apply because lighting a building on fire will have a similar result as defacing it. Whereas, committing suicide so you’re no longer a threat to anyone is far different from becoming that threat and killing everyone. Those two are completely different extremes, lighting a building on fire or defacing it really aren’t.


I don't understand how you can put someone asking a person to kill them in the same category and attempted suicide. This just doesn't make sense to me.

Spike was opting for himself to be murdered, he opened up his chest and waited for Buffy to stake him, the same way Angel was waiting for the sun to come up. Euthanasia is the act in which one assists someone in committing suicide, it is considered illegal in most countries because suicide is illegal in most countries and this is a form of suicide. Spike was turning to Euthanasia to be killed, by getting someone to assist in killing him, this is still regarded as a form of suicide.

As for Spike's persistence with asking Buffy to kill him.. When Angel had attempted suicide, nothing could have stopped him.. Buffy could have said a million "I believe in you's," but Angel would never had given in. She practically did. With Spike, she had told him that she knew that he was a good man deep down inside.. something that was addressed in the final scene in "Amends," only with more emotion and tears rolling down her face. For Angel to commit suicide would have been being extremely selfish and weak, considering he never reconciled with Buffy after she had told him how important her was.

Something clearly did stop Angel considering he didn't try and kill himself. The sun wasn't the only means to dust Angel ya know, he could have just as easily picked up a stake and jammed it in his heart after the sun began to fall. Instead he opted to stay alive and never tried to commit suicide again; Spike did. Furthermore, I don't believe Angel committing suicide can be deemed selfish when he tried to do so because he believed he was a threat to the woman he loved and everyone else in Sunnydale. If your going to call him selfish because afterwards Buffy would be in pain then you would have to call Buffy jumping off the tower in The Gift selfish because she left Dawn in pain; which isn't the case.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by vampmogs
Something clearly did stop Angel considering he didn't try and kill himself. The sun wasn't the only means to dust Angel ya know, he could have just as easily picked up a stake and jammed it in his heart after the sun began to fall. Instead he opted to stay alive and never tried to commit suicide again; Spike did. Furthermore, I don't believe Angel committing suicide can be deemed selfish when he tried to do so because he believed he was a threat to the woman he loved and everyone else in Sunnydale. If your going to call him selfish because afterwards Buffy would be in pain then you would have to call Buffy jumping off the tower in The Gift selfish because she left Dawn in pain; which isn't the case.

This is an entirely different case and situation. Calling Buffy jumping off "selfish" is absurd. It was the right thing to do and actually did make a difference. Angel wasn't fighting any thoughts to the fact that he might turn dark before this.. therefore there really wasn't anything to be afraid about. Angel was choosing the easy path rather than the hard path. Instead of fighting the First's lies, he chose to believe them and off himself. Totally different.

Originally Posted by vampmogs
It depends if you view Angel committing suicide as wrong or not, isn't that based entirely on Angel's perception? Furthermore, the example doesn't really apply because lighting a building on fire will have a similar result as defacing it. Whereas, committing suicide so you’re no longer a threat to anyone is far different from becoming that threat and killing everyone. Those two are completely different extremes, lighting a building on fire or defacing it really aren’t.

Angel committing suicide was very wrong... Like I had said, he hadn't done anything previously to the fact that he somehow many turn dark. These fears were somewhat stupid of him to have. Now, I know and understand he was under somewhat control of the First.. therefore me calling him cowardly would be uncalled for.
Regardless of the consequences, the example still proves its point. The fact is is that Angel still agreed to an act that the First is fond of.. an act that was completely unnecessary and filled with lies that were fed to him by the First.

[vampmogs]

This is an entirely different case and situation. Calling Buffy jumping off "selfish" is absurd. It was the right thing to do and actually did make a difference. Angel wasn't fighting any thoughts to the fact that he might turn dark before this.. therefore there really wasn't anything to be afraid about. Angel was choosing the easy path rather than the hard path. Instead of fighting the First's lies, he chose to believe them and off himself. Totally different.

Yes it is absurd and that is my point, it is also equally absurd to call Angel 'selfish' because he decided to off himself. You stated, For Angel to commit suicide would have been being extremely selfish and weak, considering he never reconciled with Buffy after she had told him how important her was. If Angel is selfish for leaving a saddened Buffy behind that in no way makes Buffy any less selfish for jumping off the tower. Both believed they were doing it for the good of those around them but both left pain-stricken people behind, if Angel is selfish for this than so is Buffy.


Angel committing suicide was very wrong... Like I had said, he hadn't done anything previously to the fact that he somehow many turn dark. These fears were somewhat stupid of him to have. Now, I know and understand he was under somewhat control of the First.. therefore me calling him cowardly would be uncalled for.

Yes he had. Angel left everyone to die in the Hyperion Hotel, killed people so that he could remain with Darla, Dru and Spike and had tasted the blood of the coffee shop guy after being shot in Orpheus. Angel also confessed that he wanted to take comfort in Buffy, that he nearly did and because of this he thought he was a threat to her life. He came to Sunnydale to watch over and protect Buffy, he believed that he was doing the very opposite by remaining alive and believed he was a threat to not only her but everyone.

Regardless of the consequences, the example still proves its point. The fact is is that Angel still agreed to an act that the First is fond of.. an act that was completely unnecessary and filled with lies that were fed to him by the First.

Angel didn't agree to anything. The First tried to talk him out of it because it wasn't the First's goal but Angel refused and made up his own mind. Being evil the First is hardly broken up about it, but it was never its goal. Nor was the act filled with lies the First told him, Angel states that he wanted to take comfort in Buffy and loose his soul and that's why he came to this decision. It was about what Angel had discovered about himself rather than what the First had filled his head with.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by vampmogs
Yes it is absurd and that is my point, it is also equally absurd to call Angel 'selfish' because he decided to off himself. You stated, For Angel to commit suicide would have been being extremely selfish and weak, considering he never reconciled with Buffy after she had told him how important her was. If Angel is selfish for leaving a saddened Buffy behind that in no way makes Buffy any less selfish for jumping off the tower. Both believed they were doing it for the good of those around them but both left pain-stricken people behind, if Angel is selfish for this than so is Buffy.


Here is the difference: Buffy leaving everyone to save the world would not be selfish.. considering she would be saving the world from the bleeding of dimensions, utter chaos in the world, and slow demise of humanity.

Angel killing himself would in no way possibly help anyone or anything in the world. Angel was powerful enough to hold himself back from hurting Buffy. His decision was completely on fear and smoke in mirrors.

Yes he had. Angel left everyone to die in the Hyperion Hotel, killed people so that he could remain with Darla, Dru and Spike and had tasted the blood of the coffee shop guy after being shot in Orpheus. Angel also confessed that he wanted to take comfort in Buffy, that he nearly did and because of this he thought he was a threat to her life. He came to Sunnydale to watch over and protect Buffy, he believed that he was doing the very opposite by remaining alive and believed he was a threat to not only her but everyone.

Both of these events are a long time period from where he was at this point. Angel had been through everything with Buffy, and had been guided by Whistler to help him see his true purpose. Why Angel would now be having fears of killing her and turning evil despite the fact that his soul would pretty much not allow it is beyond my understanding, and I'd state that for the majority of the audience as well. It just doesn't make sense at all.

Angel didn't agree to anything. The First tried to talk him out of it because it wasn't the First's goal but Angel refused and made up his own mind. Being evil the First is hardly broken up about it, but it was never its goal. Nor was the act filled with lies the First told him, Angel states that he wanted to take comfort in Buffy and loose his soul and that's why he came to this decision. It was about what Angel had discovered about himself rather than what the First had filled his head with.

Even though you are correct in that Angel had came up with the idea himself, it isn't as if The First has never contemplated a second a choice. You stated earlier that the First didn't say the "Main plan" or "first plan.." But can you honestly believe that The First is naive enough to actually believe it would have an easy time to turn a soulled vampire evil? This wouldn't be the only time that The First would have had a second plan in mind, nor suicide. Remember in "Conversations With Dead People" when The First decides to convince Willow to kill herself when it cannot sway her to quit using magick?

[vampmogs]

Here is the difference: Buffy leaving everyone to save the world would not be selfish.. considering she would be saving the world from the bleeding of dimensions, utter chaos in the world, and slow demise of humanity.

Buffy's decision was a good one and I believe that. However, you could always find ways for it to be deemed a selfish one if you tried hard enough. As for example, stating she should have allowed Dawn to die as she was the slayer and should be protecting Sunnydale. I don't believe this but if try hard enough you'll always find a way to deem her sacrifice selfish, in the same way you could deem Angel's suicide attempt as selfish.

Angel killing himself would in no way possibly help anyone or anything in the world. Angel was powerful enough to hold himself back from hurting Buffy. His decision was completely on fear and smoke in mirrors.

So what? What exactly does Angel owe to the world? Angel believed he could harm the people he cared for all over again and he wasn't going to let that happen; therefore it wasn't selfish of him to die.

Both of these events are a long time period from where he was at this point. Angel had been through everything with Buffy, and had been guided by Whistler to help him see his true purpose. Why Angel would now be having fears of killing her and turning evil despite the fact that his soul would pretty much not allow it is beyond my understanding, and I'd state that for the majority of the audience as well. It just doesn't make sense at all.

The First was taunting him with past kills from the late 18th century and they still effected him, so why is it so hard to believe events from the 1950's and 1970's would still be playing on his mind? Furthermore, Angel now had fears of killing her and turning evil because he nearly gave in to what the First wanted; he confessed that he wanted to give in and sleep with Buffy which would result in him loosing his soul. It was a very big risk for him.

And just for the record nor you or I know what the majority of the audience thinks, so probably not best to state opinions for them all ;)

Even though you are correct in that Angel had came up with the idea himself, it isn't as if The First has never contemplated a second a choice. You stated earlier that the First didn't say the "Main plan" or "first plan.." But can you honestly believe that The First is naive enough to actually believe it would have an easy time to turn a soulled vampire evil? This wouldn't be the only time that The First would have had a second plan in mind, nor suicide. Remember in "Conversations With Dead People" when The First decides to convince Willow to kill herself when it cannot sway her to quit using magick?

The First was naive enough to believe Buffy wouldn't have figured out about the bad guys always being where the power is, it was also incredibly naive to try and dig up the slayer's weapon when leaving it imbedded in the earth would have prevented her from ever getting her hands on it.

The First has a habit of underestimating how strong our characters are, first with Angel then with Spike, "You won't be pulling these puppet's strings anymore!" and Buffy's capabilities as a slayer. As well as actually believing Willow would commit suicide so easily now that she was back on the right path. It is entirely reasonable to suggest it didn't have a back up plan with Angel, especially when it viewed Angel as weak.

Yes I do remember Conversations With Dead People and the First in no way tries to hide its plan for Willow to commit suicide, why would it be scared to do so with Angel? The First's plan was to turn Angel dark, Angel refused and decided to kill himself and being you know... evil.. it didn't exactly cry over the decision.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by Vampmogs
So what? What exactly does Angel owe to the world? Angel believed he could harm the people he cared for all over again and he wasn't going to let that happen; therefore it wasn't selfish of him to die.


Angel owes his redemption to the World. It is his personal duty to make up for every person his alter ego had once killed. This is what the entire Whistler/Angel relationship was about. Whistler gave Angel a purpose.

The First was taunting him with past kills from the late 18th century and they still effected him, so why is it so hard to believe events from the 1950's and 1970's would still be playing on his mind? Furthermore, Angel now had fears of killing her and turning evil because he nearly gave in to what the First wanted; he confessed that he wanted to give in and sleep with Buffy which would result in him loosing his soul. It was a very big risk for him.

It hard to understand because at this point these were people that didn't really mean anything to him anymore. I'd say overall this may be the weakest Angel had ever been as a character when I now think about it. He completely made himself utterly pathetic and useless just because the First said so. The phrase "If a person told you to jump off a bridge, would you?" has a meaning.

The First was naive enough to believe Buffy wouldn't have figured out about the bad guys always being where the power is, it was also incredibly naive to try and dig up the slayer's weapon when leaving it imbedded in the earth would have prevented her from ever getting her hands on it.

The First has a habit of underestimating how strong our characters are, first with Angel then with Spike, "You won't be pulling these puppet's strings anymore!" and Buffy's capabilities as a slayer. As well as actually believing Willow would commit suicide so easily now that she was back on the right path. It is entirely reasonable to suggest it didn't have a back up plan with Angel, especially when it viewed Angel as weak.
Yes I do remember Conversations With Dead People and the First in no way tries to hide its plan for Willow to commit suicide, why would it be scared to do so with Angel? The First's plan was to turn Angel dark, Angel refused and decided to kill himself and being you know... evil.. it didn't exactly cry over the decision.

To me despite stating "that's not the plan," the smirk and way the First states that it will work had familiarity written all over it. I see the First as very smart, considering it's the essense of evil, we can almost assume that it's taking the part of the "Anti-God" of the series. If we play by these rules then I see it that The First indeed had a second plan just as it did with Willow.

[vampmogs]

Angel owes his redemption to the World. It is his personal duty to make up for every person his alter ego had once killed. This is what the entire Whistler/Angel relationship was about. Whistler gave Angel a purpose.

Whistler didn't give Angel a purpose, Buffy did and Angel believed he was capable of killing the one person that gave him this purpose. Nor does Angel owe the world his redemption, Angel became the PTB's champion but never was he told that he had to seek redemption; that was Angel's choice alone.

It hard to understand because at this point these were people that didn't really mean anything to him anymore. I'd say overall this may be the weakest Angel had ever been as a character when I now think about it. He completely made himself utterly pathetic and useless just because the First said so. The phrase "If a person told you to jump off a bridge, would you?" has a meaning.

The First told him to turn dark and kill Buffy and he didn't, therefore the phrase "If a person told you to jump off a bridge, would you?" really doesn't make sense.

To me despite stating "that's not the plan," the smirk and way the First states that it will work had familiarity written all over it. I see the First as very smart, considering it's the essense of evil, we can almost assume that it's taking the part of the "Anti-God" of the series. If we play by these rules then I see it that The First indeed had a second plan just as it did with Willow.

The First never states "it will work" it states "it will do." There is a very big difference there. It "will do" implies it wasn't what it wanted but it will do, it "will work" implies Angel's suicide would work to some greater scheme by the First. Nor do we really have any evidence that to suggest the First is very smart it has failed at everything it has ever attempted to do, turning Angel dark, turning Spike dark and ending the slayer line were always massive failures.

[Risa]

I think the Powers that Be brought Angel back from Hell. He was soldier for the forces of good and would be needed for battles to come. The Powers that be were not going to allow Evil and their minions to win in the game of Good vs. Evil. So they set into motion a chain of events that lead Angel to hell and then brought him back. All this caused him to realize he couldn't stay in Sunnydale. So he moved on...to a bigger fight..to where he was needed more. The First can claim that they brought him back. But they are wrong. Good brought him back, cause they don't like to lose their soldiers.

[Epic]

What I have to think is that there was a bigger plan for him. As I was rewatching Becoming I realized that he hadn't been out of the sewer (so to speak) helping people for all that long, and as we relzie he really didn't like being near people and connecting. And then he learned and basically he had the will to start helping people and he did, fufilling fate or what have you. I think that he ended up helping people and that was why he came back....

[sherrilina]

Whistler didn't give Angel a purpose, Buffy did and Angel believed he was capable of killing the one person that gave him this purpose. Nor does Angel owe the world his redemption, Angel became the PTB's champion but never was he told that he had to seek redemption; that was Angel's choice alone.

Well, but who showed Angel Buffy? Technically Whistler did give Angel a purpose--he gave Angel the idea of protecting/helping Buffy. I think one could safely say that Whistler gave him a purpose or guided him to the right path--he was very much like Doyle in City Of...., or Cordy in YW, someone sent by the PTB to get their chosen champion back on track. It's clear that Joss intended Whistler to be an agent of the PTB since originally he meant for Whistler to be in Doyle's place on ATS.

So I don't understand, Nostalgia, why you would say that there's nothing in the scripts supporting the idea of the PTB bringing him back--what about PTB!Whistler saying that Angel turning evil was not part of the plan in Becoming, and the flashbacks of him coming to guide Angel to work for the PTB, which all show that the PTB were clearly interested/invested in Angel to work for them, and having a plan for him which continues to Angel (esp. seaosn 1), whereas (as vampmogs notes) there is no indication that the FE had any interest in Angel before Amends. Plus the PTB told Buffy through Whistler how to send Angel to hell to save the world--if they knew how to send him there, they no doubt knew how to bring him back (they certainly knew where he was, since they put him there essentially). It all adds up to the PTB being the ones who brought Angel back, why wouldn't they do so when they had this big plan for him, and considered him an important soldier for them? They'd ahve a lot more reason to do so than the First...I jsut don't see how the First bringing Angel back makes sense....

[Pandora's_Box]

For me it's simple, Joss planned to kill Angel at the end of season 2 but producers were interested in a spin-off around him, so he brings him to life and try to explain it in Amends, The First bring Angel back to kill Buffy...well well well...

[Peace]

I go with the idea of PTB returning Angel from Hell. They had the plans for him, so they dragged him out. Still, in Ats people in W&H state a lot of times, that Angel was to be a major player in the upcoming apocalypse, so there's a possibility that Seniour Partners might be involved in Angel's return too. I don't think The First has something to do with it. It's less powerful that SP, so it just used Angel's doubts against him in "Amends".

[Veverka]

For me it's simple, Joss planned to kill Angel at the end of season 2 but producers were interested in a spin-off around him, so he brings him to life and try to explain it in Amends, The First bring Angel back to kill Buffy...well well well...

Well, actually, I think Joss is a producer who not only created the whole thing, but was pretty instrumental in the spin-off, so...

Actually, early on in the thread there was the idea that probably Buffy did NOT bring Angel back by her 'giving up the ring, letting go of Angel' idea, rather, I think Angel brought Angel back by Buffy's action. Leaving aside the fact he doesn't remember it, it fits that this action using the ring as a symbol for the humanity in Angel, as a memory triggering all that brought Angel to the point he was able to give a piece of his human self to the girl he loved, this ring was the phyiscal link that pulled Angel back onto the plane of existence that was the Buffy/Earth dimension... and jetlag from hell...? Well, you're not necessarily going to remember that journey or the reason it was possible.

[basakbangel]

guys firstly hi! nice to see you all.
I'm sorry I couldn't read all the replies. so I'm just coming up with my opnion.
It can be both: love and work. I was thinking that in "beauty and the beast"(3x03) Buffy left the same ring that Angel gave her. After that Angel turned back so maybe It can be like a call or something. But in other way maybe It's the curse that is wanted Angel to suffer more.