3x07 Fresh Blood

[Ehlwyen]

Ah yes, badass, Supernatural be thy name.

Oh I hoped and dared to believe that this episode might be the one to turn things around from the long sinking depression. I really had just hoped that it might tie up loose ends with Gordon...*squishybloodysquee*. But not only that, we eliminated another maniacal hunter, and, hopefully put Bela on notice that she ain't as untouchable as she believes.

And best of all, Dean realizes that he's been acting wrong and hurting his brother with his attitude. Oooh, whip cream on top, Sam is the one who made Dean realize this by finally connecting verbally with him. I was starting to believe that only a traumatic event like Sam disappearing or going evil could be the thing to draw Dean back. So it was a relief that Dean still had some reason and logic to finally hear what Sam had been saying.

The final scene with Dean opening up metaphorically by letting Sam look under the hood and learn how the heart of the Impala worked was perfect. Especially when Dean told Sam to fix the Impala and therefore him. I see better days ahead of us.

But the writing is on the wall. Literally. 183 days. Least Dean gets the extra day since its a leap year. (:xd...:thud:...:cutecry: ) It's hard to believe that we're already 6 months gone. I love how we see Dean knocked down but finally getting up as if he reached rock bottom and now the tide has turned. Dean can't see the time left but Sam has a clear view.

All I've ever wanted is to see Dean fight. It's been very frustrating seeing him so bogged down with inaction. Though now I guess it makes enough sense that it took exactly half his time to turn things around. The hand can only go down halfway on the clock and the rest is uphill. It kills me that the show slipped in such a subtle reference to Dean's ticking clock and let us at home know how much time is left in the one year.

Though in truth, all of the entire climatic fight scene segment blew me away with the metaphors, parallels and glimpses to what the future might hold. Here is Sam all alone in the dark, uncertain as to what his destiny holds, only reacting to things when they come very close. He's been seemingly safe cloaked in the dark believing he had choices. I loved the portrayal of innocence, ignorance, and denial as dark while knowledge as bright. We naturally associate light with safe (particularly in the case with nocturnal creatures as vampires). Yet here it is associated with chaos and Sam's ultimate evil.

And the kicker is that Gordon in an effort to permanently subdue Sam is ironically the one who breaks through and forces Sam into the light and onto the course to meet up with his destiny. The camerawork was excellent since I couldn't help but feel awakened when they broke on through to the otherside. Sam's defeat of Gordon was brutal. The steel wire had to be slicing through Sam's hand and making his grip weaker by the second yet he still displayed such force. *shivers*

I guess I could ramble all evening, but I'll leave some stuff for others to squee about. Though, omg, YAY, Harmony!!! :heart: :heart: :heart: I had to double take because I had just seconds before specifically chosen to watch the opening credits and had not seen her name listed. So though my heart said yes, my brain was saying can't be. I love that the show was secretive enough to hide her name in the end credits and not be gimmicky like they did with Amber Benson.

Oh Dean, ninja?! Stealth is not exactly the first word that comes to mind when listing your qualities.:heart:

Loved when Dean told Bela he was going to kill her and was able to share his murder face THROUGH the phone. Ooooh, watch out Bela, the last time Dean had that face, he was pissed about a child murderer and most definitely followed through on the promise. I was disappointed that Bela sucked up to Dean later and probably got off his To Do list (both lists ;)(Sorry I can't help myself with the naughty puns)).

For me, probably the best episode since BUABS.

[galathea]

I just watched the episode and had to make a totally uncoherent SQUEE post because I don't think I'll be able to write up a proper review of this any time soon! But OMG ... my show is back and with full force! :heart: :heart: :heart:

This is the episode I was waiting for all S3 so far, it made me cry, laugh and excited, excellent acting, writing, pacing. I am absolutely stunned at the moment! Sam'n'Dean killed me dead *squishes both boys ... hard*, Gordon was terrifying and yet made me feel for him, Dean threatening to kill Bela for good made my day. YAY!!!

The end scene with with Sam, Dean and the Impala was such a thing of beauty that I am still shaking! Man, I LOVE my show! :heart:

Sorry I had to let that out! :lol: Extensive review ('cause boy did that episode have material to analyse) following somewhen this weekend! I am just so happy at the moment! Kim Manners and Sera Gamble are such a winning team, it's fantastic. /sigh Over and out! :heart:

[KingofCretins]

Certainly the best episode I've seen in the short time I've been watching. I found it viscerally satisfying to see Gordon turned into a vampire -- all his sanctimony brought to ruin in an instant.

Glad to see Dean finally show some level of empathy for his brother's feelings about this whole deal. Although the reasoning for letting him fix the Impala didn't exactly make Sam's day -- it was still, essentially, a resignation to the deal, even if it was in a "let me be your big brother" kind of way.

So, was the message that Sam does, in fact, have some sort of rather disturbing preternaturally strength since he was basically able to "Showtime" Turok-Gordon there at the end? If so, I found it puzzling that Dean was curious but mostly ambivalent. Sam not seeming to be bothered by it could be an indication that he is slightly corrupted by it already.

Loved seeing Mercedes McNab in anything, but was disappointed they killed her off so early. But, I suppose they had already given us a full hour of Buffy-alum-as-conflicted-vampire with Amber Benson, so there wasn't new ground to cover there.

Really, that was a great hour of television.

[Ehlwyen]

Gordon Walker has been a thorn in my side every since we first saw him. Blade the daywalker he is not. :p So I was extremely happy to see his end rather than him finally learning the point of things. It is rather funny that the vampires on this show have all been waaaaaay more sane, reasonable, and human than him.

Seriously how great was it to see Gordon peeking at his reflection with the fangs descending? Nice contrast to when the Winchesters first checked him in Bloodlust pressed up against the building wall. And this was perhaps a quick commentary on how you can put on outward mask to others but when you turn inwards it's a lot harder to deny the ugliness of yourself. That what was a brick wall to the Winchesters was instead to Gordon a mirror to his soul.


Although the reasoning for letting him fix the Impala didn't exactly make Sam's day -- it was still, essentially, a resignation to the deal, even if it was in a "let me be your big brother" kind of way.

Being open is not Dean's normal attitude. I think it took all his courage to say he was doing this for "later" even though Dean was doing it for the other reasons. I think Sam eventually realized that Dean was trying his best to be open and share with Sam. So Sam let it go while letting Dean keep a little of his own armor intact.

As far as Sam's strength. Avoidance of the issue has always been popular with the two of them. Dean especially. Dean knows Sam's going to go evil so he doesn't bring it up because he has the "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it attitude." Sam knows that Dean is just going to blow his concerns off and therefore has kinda stopped bringing the issue up.

I know a lot of people think Sam has or is being taken over by something. I haven't felt that way at all though. It just feels like Sam's done worrying about himself, and is instead focusing on himself. I still feel like we have all Sammy onscreen.

I was so impressed with Harmony...Lucy's convincing tale of woe and innocence, she persuaded me way more than Madison last season. I really wanted them to let Lucy go. However, she had pretty much told them she was junkie and therefore lacking in the willpower to not look for her next hit if Sam&Dean let her go. So there was really no way to let her go unless they wanted to come and track her down AGAIN after she killed MORE people. :p

[KingofCretins]

I watched Amber's episode, but I can't remember if she walked away from it now or not.

Is Sam's stupendous evilocity tied to the deal and the Season 2 finale, or was it earlier than that? I'm not someone who has a big problem watching stuff out of order, and I'm getting curious. I want to go back and see where they opened the hellmou... devil's gate and try to figure out exactly how they got to where they are.

[galathea]

As far as Sam's strength. Avoidance of the issue has always been popular with the two of them. Dean especially. Dean knows Sam's going to go evil so he doesn't bring it up because he has the "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it attitude." Sam knows that Dean is just going to blow his concerns off and therefore has kinda stopped bringing the issue up. Huh?! How would Dean 'know' that Sam is going to go evil? :confused: He may have had that fear last season, but if anything the S2 finale showed that it is completely within Sam's control and that it is anything but pre-destined. As far as Sam's 'strength' goes, I think I faintly remember from the Mr. Ripley novels that it is absolutely possible to sever a head with a piano string, with a rush of adrenalin it might have been not inhuman to do that.

On the other hand, Sam was fighting for his' and Dean's life, fuelled by Gordon's attack on Dean and since I assume that Sam may still have his powers and would theoretically be able to unlock Jake-like superstrength in a rush of anger and desperation, like he did with the telekinesis incident in Nightmare. Just a theory! :lol:

I know a lot of people think Sam has or is being taken over by something. I haven't felt that way at all though. It just feels like Sam's done worrying about himself, and is instead focusing on himself. I still feel like we have all Sammy onscreen. I am totally convinced so far that Sam is absolutely himself. All his recklessness and ruthlessness is easily explained with the pressure he is under. He is acting like Dean under stress at the moment, especially in violent situations. Apart from that he is every inch the caring and gentle character we know from the first two seasons. He is just hardening himself up ever since Madison and who could blame him, considering what happened to him over the last couple of months.

[Ehlwyen]

I watched Amber's episode, but I can't remember if she walked away from it now or not.

Is Sam's stupendous evilocity tied to the deal and the Season 2 finale, or was it earlier than that? I'm not someone who has a big problem watching stuff out of order, and I'm getting curious. I want to go back and see where they opened the hellmou... devil's gate and try to figure out exactly how they got to where they are.

Amber lived to tell another tale! Harmony was the first Buffy alum to actually die in an episode.

Sam's evil orgins are scattered all over the place. And I think a lot of us will argue on where it originates. I suggest starting at the beginning. But the S2 finale is really late in the game on Sam's destiny.

That is the fun of watching stuff out of order, all the curiousity and intrigue. ;)

[KingofCretins]

Ooh, maybe Amber will come back at some point. From what I remember, her character was to, I dunno, thoughtful to ever be used as an everything-but-vampires hunter, but I liked her performance.

As a naive observer, *I'm* not convinced that Sam is entirely Sam. First of all, he utterly failed to rebuke Ruby's promise to be a guiding influence over him. But in this episode, when he killed Gordon -- Gordon looked surprised at what he was doing. Dean looked surprised. Sam... didn't look all that surprised. And I'm assuming he hasn't always had Slayer strength ;)

Incidentally, there is never too many times to show a vampire get garotted with razor wire, seriously. <3 Showtime, <3 Fresh Blood.

[Ehlwyen]

Huh?! How would Dean 'know' that Sam is going to go evil? :confused: He may have had that fear last season, but if anything the S2 finale showed that it is completely within Sam's control and that it is anything but pre-destined.

I apologize. I meant that Dean knows the possibility of Sam going evil. I absolutely and utterly agree that Sam has a choice and ability to do something about all this. But just because YED is dead doesn't mean Sam's living destiny free these days.


As far as Sam's 'strength' goes, I think I faintly remember from the Mr. Ripley novels that it is absolutely possible to sever a head with a piano string, with a rush of adrenalin it might have been not inhuman to do that.

I agree it wasn't SO out of the ordinary for him to be able to pop Gordon's head off.


On the other hand, Sam was fighting for his' and Dean's life, fuelled by Gordon's attack on Dean and since I assume that Sam may still have his powers and would theoretically be able to unlock Jake-like superstrength in a rush of anger and desperation, like he did with the telekinesis incident in Nightmare. Just a theory! :lol:

Good one!!!


I am totally convinced so far that Sam is absolutely himself. All his recklessness and ruthlessness is easily explained with the pressure he is under. He is acting like Dean under stress at the moment, especially in violent situations. Apart from that he is every inch the caring and gentle character we know from the first two seasons. He is just hardening himself up ever since Madison and who could blame him, considering what happened to him over the last couple of months.

:hug: OMG we agree on something! :heart: :heart: *wuggles Sam* Ditto it all! :2party:

[galathea]

As a naive observer, *I'm* not convinced that Sam is entirely Sam. First of all, he utterly failed to rebuke Ruby's promise to be a guiding influence over him. But in this episode, when he killed Gordon -- Gordon looked surprised at what he was doing. Dean looked surprised. Sam... didn't look all that surprised. And I'm assuming he hasn't always had Slayer strength ;) The only reason Sam didn't kill Ruby yet is because she is holding the promise of helping out with Dean's deal as bait in front of him. Saving Dean is Sam's priority at the moment and he is absolutely willing to make deals with demons if that's necessary. Just like Dean or John did in order to keep their family alive. That's absolutely no indication that there has to be something wrong with him.

When it comes to Gordon: They have a history with that character, they tried to reason with him, they went the way of law enforcement, still, he tried three times to kill Sam now and every action against him is pure self-defense. I think Gordon was simply surprised that Sam got the better of him, after all he was convinced that Sam is the anti-Christ, so why would he be surprised that Sam would kill him?

Dean was surprised because Sam pleaded last time to let Gordon live when his brother wanted to kill him, so he expected the same response from him this time. But Sam is done being pushed around by people who hold stuff against him on no grounds other than prejudice and fear. I guess he made up his mind about Gordon since Bad Day At Black Rock, he wasn't surprised about what he is capable of, if push comes to shove.

[Willow's Tara]

Actually Mercedes's character wasn't the first to die techinally, Julie Benz's character would have died probably before even season 2 aired, even thought it was not seen techinally she died. If you think about it Amy and Amber's character lived from the Buffy alum and Mercedes and Julie's did.

But yeah, I hope Amber's character appears sometime into the future (As long as she isn't killed off). Maybe we will see all the other characters as well I(Welll Lenore/Amber wasn't the only one I liked, there were a couple of more who aren't dead that I would like to see).

Anyways, can't wait to see this episode the week after next week (We are up to Red morning at dawn, is that title right?)

[Ehlwyen]

Actually Mercedes's character wasn't the first to die techinally, Julie Benz's character would have died probably before even season 2 aired, even thought it was not seen techinally she died. If you think about it Amy and Amber's character lived from the Buffy alum and Mercedes and Julie's did.

Well, we have no idea if Layla died. And that's what I saying. She didn't die on the show. And technically may still be alive by either a miracle or found her own dark way to stay alive. Eep!


Anyways, can't wait to see this episode the week after next week (We are up to Red morning at dawn, is that title right?)

You will love Fresh Blood, I'm sure! "Red sky at morning" is the title you are looking for. It's a sailor's rhyme, "Red sky at night, sailors delight. Red sky at morning, sailors take warning." :D

[Willow's Tara]

Ah I see good point, she could have survived and be walking around Earth right now, people have survived dieases without the help of the death reaper taking someone's else's life.

Hmm well with all the reviews here, I am guessing I will love it, and not to be mean but it's nice to see Gordon getting what he deserved (Tried killing Sam?Dead just because they saw the grey in the middle with Lenore, hw was already unstable), I understand about his sister but I didn't see Gunn trying to kill Angel when he stopped him.

And thanks for the correction, I forgot what it was called

[Llywela]

As a naive observer, *I'm* not convinced that Sam is entirely Sam. First of all, he utterly failed to rebuke Ruby's promise to be a guiding influence over him. But in this episode, when he killed Gordon -- Gordon looked surprised at what he was doing. Dean looked surprised. Sam... didn't look all that surprised. And I'm assuming he hasn't always had Slayer strength ;)
I'm with Chris. I don't believe there is anything wrong with Sam at all. One of the big themes of this season so far has been misdirection - the damage that can be caused by the whispering of lies and half-truths.

Sam has always been one to hesitate and hold back in the past, and at times it has cost him dear. You don't have to look any further than Cold Oak. He spared Jake's life, let his guard down and turned his back on an opponent, and Sam's death and Dean's death sentence came as a direct result. Now there is an entire army of demons on the loose he knows that he can't afford such squeamishness any more, for his own sake and for Dean's, can't afford to keep letting Dean take the hits for him and shield him from the uglier aspects of the job. The Madison situation taught him that he can do what's necessary, and he's been determined this season to stand on his own two feet rather than let Dean protect him in the way he always has up till now. He's got a harder edge, and is more ruthless, but it stems perfectly naturally from his character development.

Sam's great fear last season was that the YED would flip some kind of switch in his head and turn him into something evil - which is what Gordon also believed - but that has been proved to be false. There was no switch. Becoming evil was a choice they each had to make, to cross a line and keep walking. Sam chose otherwise; he's still himself.

And having said all that, I now haven't left myself any time or brain power to comment on the actual episode, which was amazing. God love him, Sam finally found the right words to get through Dean's wall of denial via the door, rather than continuing to hammer uselessly at it. :heart: *squishes both boys*

I'll have to come back and say more later.

[LRae12]

Ok....Gordon was turned by the vampire cutting himself and Gordon and mixing their blood...continuity issue, here...Sam was bleeding all over the place - using razor wire to kill Gordon, which was sure to have cut Sam's hands...the blood would have come in contact with Sam's cuts....;)

Just had to get THAT out.

So I finally watched the eppy today...I was so excited to see Harmony! :D Her acting was very well done in that scene...:)

I found Gordon's transformation from hunter to vampire rather predictable in some ways and fascinating in others. First for the predictable - it's a very been there done that concept for a vampire to turn it's hunter. Plus, I was a bit disappointed that the boys didn't have to make the hard decision to kill Gordon, the man...it kind of gave them and easy way out by killing a vampire as far as the moral questions go. Though I was glad that they touched on the subject in the hotel room and had pretty much agreed that Gordon the man must be killed.

For the fascinating - I think the writers did a good job showing Gordon's true nature through his vampyrism. As a human he was a ruthless murderer, using his 'hunting' as a mask to cover his inner rage and brutality. Once he was turned he fully became the monster that he had tried to bury within. He didn't HAVE to kill those people...look at Amber's character...she was a vampire that CHOSE not to kill humans...he could have done the same. But I liked how the writers brought that full circle showing that just because you are technically a monster (Amber) you can be of the good, while you are technically of the good (Gordon the man) you can be a monster. Really nice subtle tie up of that previous episode's storyline.

oh, oh, oh...the last scene....what can I said that hasn't all ready been said above...but that scene so had me tearing up...:heart: I loved the metaphorical letting go of denial that Dean did in this scene by passing on his 'baby' to his brother...:cutecry: That was the sweetest and most moving scene since the baseball bat to the car...both of which included my 3rd favorite character...the Impala! :xd

[galathea]

Okay, so full review :D :

Sera Gamble and Kim Manners for the win!! This week’s episode Fresh Blood was an exhilarating and utterly satisfying ride, a bright reminder of why I love this show so damn much! It made me cry and laugh and shudder, all within the short range of 40 minutes and can easily hold its ground beside other outstanding SN episodes. :heart:

Every now and then Supernatural creates these episodes that are damn near perfect: the character dynamics are spot on, the writing is concise, has depth and is rooted in previous events, the episode plot and the story between the Winchester brothers are perfectly interwoven with each other, the acting is even more remarkable than usual, the cinematography is beautiful and on top of it all we get a cool song that reflects on the characters and their situation, before we fade out into black. Fresh Blood pretty much is one of those episodes for me and while I liked most S3 episodes so far and loved and cherished a lot of the character and plot developments, this one was the first that had me fully invested and left me with incoherent glee.

In comparison to most other episodes this season Fresh Blood benefits from being embedded into the background context of Supernatural, hence it didn’t need a lot of expositional scenes and could just jump right into the story. The vampire lore was established in Dead Man’s Blood and Bloodlust, the history with Gordon a recurring theme since the beginning of S2. The MotW characters were moved to the sidelines and only used for moving the plot around Gordon and the Winchesters, but still maintained enough depth to tell a story of their own. Perfect!

Choosing a vampire themed episode for the final confrontation with Gordon was the logical choice, coming full circle for the character, who got started in his life as a hunter by a vampire attack and was obsessed with them ever since and who in the end found his nemesis in the very creatures that he hunted. It’s the kind of poetic justice that can appear clichéd, if not handled with care, but Sterlin K. Brown's acting and Gamble’s writing made this plot twist believable and interesting. Gordon became a hunter out of revenge for his baby sister’s death at the hand of vampires and found his end at the hand of a vampire, seeking out revenge for the death of his daughter at the hands of a hunter. It’s a vicious circle between the hunter and the hunted and it refers back to Lenore’s belief that vampires and hunters need to change in order to find a peaceful co-existence, the truce between her group and the Winchesters being a first step into the right direction.

Gordon never believed in shades of grey, his actions and convictions firmly rooted in the belief that supernatural creatures have no other choice but being evil and consequently applies that belief to himself when he gets turned. He instantly succumbs to the vampire instincts without trying to fight it, when he kills the first person he meets to still his hunger. It’s established in this episode that a newly turned vampire goes through a phase of adaptation, keeping its lucidity and connection to its human persona, so Gordon logically comes to the conclusion that he has to die, his hunter’s instincts still firmly in place.

What works so beautifully in this turn of events is that Gordon, the vampire is practically indistinguishable from Gordon, the vampire hunter. A ruthless, dangerous, narrow-minded, obsessed man, blinded by misdirected convictions, who uses whatever means necessary to achieve his goals. He lost perspective on goodness and humanity long before he became a vampire, hence his being turned into one works as a perfect externalisation of his inner ‘monster’.

Gordon’s end confrontation with Sam was awesome in its execution, visually as well as storytelling-wise. Gordon always used his own darkness for hunting, admitting to Dean that the darkness inside him keeps him hungry and sharp for the hunt, so it was entirely appropriate to externalise that metaphor as well by plunging the room into darkness and using it as an advantage over Sam, cutting him off of his natural environment and his support system (Dean). Where Sam struggles with the darkness, firmly believing in his choices and the ability to control it, Gordon moves in it with sure steps, his vision is ‘clear’, where Sam’s is obstructed. So it’s wonderfully ironical that with his final attack on Sam, Gordon moves them both back into the light, not only reuniting Sam with Dean, giving him the added motivation to fight for his brother’s life, but also depriving himself of his main advantage. The metaphors of light versus dark, choice versus destiny, innocent versus monster just worked beautifully in this scene.

Sam cutting off Gordon’s head with a wire was gruesome to watch and I shortly wondered if that’s believable, but I think I remember faintly from the Mr. Ripley novels that it is entirely possible to sever a head with a piano cord, with an extreme rush of adrenaline it shouldn’t necessarily require extra-human strength to achieve that. On the other hand, Sam was fighting for his' and Dean's life, fuelled by Gordon's attack on Dean and since I assume that Sam may still have his powers, it would theoretically be able for him to subconsciously unlock Jake-like super-strength in a rush of anger and desperation, like he did with the telekinesis incident in Nightmare.

Sam looks dazed, amazed and a little lost at his blood-covered hands after the adrenalin rush wears off, as if he just now discovered what he is capable of, not much unlike I would imagine him after he shot Madison, just less emotionally involved. He made a decision earlier that Gordon has to die in order to protect himself and Dean, but actually going through with it, in such a brutal manner nonetheless, obviously shakes him and it’s one more hint that Sam’s still very much himself. There’s no sign of satisfaction in Sam when they walk away from the scene, he did what had to be done, but it doesn’t feel like victory.

I have to insert here, that I was immensely happy that they made the decision to kill Gordon before they knew he was turned into a vampire, every other approach would have been a major cop-out of the importance of that decision. This is the first time in the show that Sam and Dean consciously agree beforehand on taking the step to kill a human being. Granted, in a necessary effort to protect themselves and not over the question if it is justified to kill someone in order to keep them from abusing supernatural means, but still it’s a huge step for the show. Sam agreeing to that step shows how much he hardened up over the last couple of weeks, he’s done with allowing others to push him around on no other grounds than prejudice and fear. He’s finally conceding to his brother’s stance that sometimes the hard decisions are unavoidable. He doesn’t need to like it, but he isn’t shying away from it anymore either, taking his share of the consequences, instead of letting Dean take the brunt of it.

I have to say that I am sad to see Gordon go, even if the way it came to pass was completely satisfying. I always loved this character as an extreme example for a hunter who long ago crossed the lines between good and evil without realizing it and he worked well as a dark mirror for tendencies in Dean, showing that where Dean is able to overcome dark impulses in himself because he is grounded in humanity and family, Gordon lost that ability long ago, embracing the darkness as part of his hunter’s instincts. I honestly expected the writers to draw out the sub-plot between Gordon and Kubrick and the Winchesters and their possible negative influence on the hunter’s community longer in S3, so I was a little surprised at this turn of events, but I guess with all the new plots that popped up this season they eventually had to bring closure to some of the loose ends from previous seasons.

Sam: I wished you would drop the show and be my brother again! ‘Cause .. just cause!” :cutecry:

So, having that out of the way, I can finally turn to the brother stuff and boy, did they make me happy this week, as I wasn’t really expecting a reconciliation between Sam and Dean any time soon. I had to think back to the beginning of S2, where Sam desperately tried to push Dean into opening up to him about his grief over John’s death, but only achieved that Dean was closing up on him. Until he finally found the right words in Children Shouldn’t Play With Dead Things by making Dean’s behaviour about himself, Sam, instead of making it about Dean. The moment he admits that he is afraid to loose Dean, instead of trying to convince his brother that it is necessary for Dean’s own sake to open up, Dean’s walls break down. He never could deny his little brother the support he needed.

The same mechanics apply in the scene where Sam finally gets Dean to drop the mask he was wearing for his brother’s sake as well as for his own. Where in Red Sky At Morning Sam was insisting on Dean needing to care more about himself and only achieved that Dean blocked again, he finally changes his tune in Fresh Blood and openly admits the effect that Dean’s behaviour has on him and Dean can’t deny him here either.

Sam confessing his life-long hero worship towards his big brother, admitting that he still needs Dean to fill that role for him, visibly breaks through Dean’s defences (and very likely melted every single fangirl on the planet into a puddle of mush) and forces him to drop the act of confidence and fearlessness. He knew that Sam was suffering from his detachment but he still genuinely believed that it was better for Sam, preparing him for the time he won’t be around anymore and Sam just ripped that blanket of denial from him. There is just no way that he could turn his back to that kind of plea from his little brother after he dedicated his life to protect and guide and comfort him.

Kudos to Jensen and Jared for knocking this scene out of the park! Sam’s earnest plea on the verge of tearing up and Dean’s silent concession to it, hesitantly seeking out eye-contact with his brother after he made his point, really broke me down. There’s no need for big words from Dean’s side here, it’s all in the little gestures and in his soft look at his brother, his voice going from obnoxious to gentle and his posture from aggressive to compliant. God, I love the boys! :heart: :heart:

And I especially love how this exchange mirrors itself in the end scene with Dean deciding to show Sam how to fix the car, just in case he won’t be around anymore in the future, with Sam just as silently accepting that possibility, when he takes the tool from his brother’s hand. He doesn’t argue it, leaves it alone this time, quietly conceding to his brother. Both brothers give and both receive, finding common ground in all the emotional mess, finding a truce for the sake of their brotherhood. It’s just utterly beautiful! :heart: Furthermore that final scene gifted us with one of the rare moments of brotherly bonding over domestic activities, a moment of peace and quiet in their turbulent lives and Bad Companie's ‘Crazy Circles’ is just providing the right background for that moment. *sighs happily*

Dean showing Sam how to work on the car is not only a display of brotherly bonding but also highly symbolic, since the car is the Winchester equivalent for safety, comfort and home and so far taking care of it was always Dean’s responsibility, providing these values for himself and his brother and sharing that with Sam is allowing him to take a part in that responsibility and acknowledging him as an equal. They may have returned to the relative comfort of Dean reinstating his big brother role and Sam admitting that despite all his efforts to be self-sufficient this season, he still needs to be able to revert into his little brother role, but the dynamics changed, opened their interaction in a way that allows for both of them to reverse the roles if needed.

It will be interesting to see if now, on basis of their newly found connection, both will be able to also talk about the secrets they keep from each other, mainly Sam’s knowledge about Mary and the mysterious deaths of their mother’s friends and Dean’s fears about Sam’s ‘wrongness’ induced by the words the YED said to him. I am also curious to see if Dean will now take actual measures to support Sam in his efforts to save him, possible consequences be damned. Man, this relationship will never become boring.

Other noteworthy stuff:
I have to admit that I was irritated by Bela’s appearance in this episode and found her role a bit contrived. Since when is Gordon not able to find the Winchesters on his own and how convenient is it that he, a man who just broke out of prison, happens to have a priceless supernatural object on him to hand over to her for information?! Uhm, that was a bit stretched to say the least. Also, when did Bela and Dean exchange phone numbers? I mean, I don’t exactly see them do a friendly swapping of numbers just in case they want to have a chat! *lol*

Anyway, since her role was minimal I wasn’t bothered too much in the end and was outright delighted when Dean threatened to kill her for good, for selling them out to a psychotic killer and managed to convince her of the seriousness of that threat, through the phone nonetheless. Heh! Bela may be cold and self-centered but there is no way that she could just ignore such a threat against her life, so she caved and tried damage control. Still, this is the third time she showed no regard for Sam and Dean’s life and I really want them to react to that, should she ever cross their path again.

Btw, despite the money Bela gave to them for saving her life, the boys again opted to squat in an empty, derelict house, so I wondered if they actually lost all that money in Atlantic City or if it’s owed to their efforts to stay low profile and leave no traceable trail for the feds and hunters like Gordon and Kubrick.

I also very much enjoyed the side-plot around the vampire Dixon, who simply tried to restore his family, not caring anymore what the costs, if it means to spent an eternity alone. The family oriented aspect of the vampire community was already played as a mirror to Dean’s attitude towards family and revenge in Dead Man’s Blood, where Luthor took the same defensive stance towards his family like Dean. So paralleling the motivation for Dixon’s actions, born out of desperation and loneliness, with Dean’s actions after Sam died, worked quite nicely, even if it was emphasized bit blatantly to drive the point home.

Also, the aspect of the new born vampire as a victim rather than a monster, at least until it completed the adaptation process, served once again as a reminder how often Sam and Dean are left with no other option than to do what’s necessary, even if they are convinced that the creature doesn’t exactly deserve to die. The situation with Lucy was very reminiscent of the Madison situation, she was clearly an innocent victim, but her admission that she wasn’t able to control the vampiristic urges, didn’t leave Sam and Dean with much of a choice. I am just happy that still both of them are able to feel empathy with the girl.

So, in conclusion this was a brilliant episode, certainly the highlight of S3 so far for me. :heart: It had everything I love about the show and then some more! Too bad that we are now facing a 4 week’s mini-hiatus again. Let’s just hope that in that time the writer’s strike will find a satisfying solution, ‘cause after this episode the thought of having a premature ending of the show just pains me even more than before!

[Ehlwyen]

Btw, despite the money Bela gave to them for saving her life, the boys again opted to squat in an empty, derelict house, so I wondered if they actually lost all that money in Atlantic City or if it’s owed to their efforts to stay low profile and leave no traceable trail for the feds and hunters like Gordon and Kubrick.

I thought they were in a motel room and had turned over the bed springs and mattresses to use as a barricade so they could better defend themselves against intruders. It was just a single room with a bathroom and one of those decorative walls right by the front door. Typical SN motel room.


Ok....Gordon was turned by the vampire cutting himself and Gordon and mixing their blood...continuity issue, here...Sam was bleeding all over the place - using razor wire to kill Gordon, which was sure to have cut Sam's hands...the blood would have come in contact with Sam's cuts....

Just had to get THAT out.

Probably Gordon's blood could have gotten on Sam. Maybe not. *shrug* But I wouldn't call it a goof.

Mixing infected blood with Sam didn't affect him in Croatoan. So it brings up some interesting theories. Most likely once you're infected with one type of monster blood you can't be infected by another. That would prevent a vampire/werewolf/zombie hybridization. Makes enough sense considering how many Vamp Werewolf legends have we ever heard? I'm thinking something similar to "Underworld" movies where vampire and werewolf blood mixing usually was a fatal ****tail. Except in SN, maybe there is just immunity rather than a lethal reaction if you are already infected by something else. Therefore, only uninfected humans are susceptible to an infection changing them.

After all that, what I am trying to say is that since the YED got to Sam first, perhaps Sam is just immune to all other types of infected blood.

[galathea]

I thought they were in a motel room and had turned over the bed springs and mattresses to use as a barricade so they could better defend themselves against intruders. It was just a single room with a bathroom and one of those decorative walls right by the front door. Typical SN motel room. Huh! Maybe :lol: I was just assuming that from the fact that the room already looked like that before they knew that Gordon was after them and there was no reason for them to barricade themselves like that for a simple vampire hunt! *shrugs* I just found it funny! :D

Btw, I meant to ask you why you conclude from the sign on the wall about the 183 days without an accident that it is an actual count on Dean's days? I mean, we had a similar sign at the wall in Nightshifter and while it is a interesting detail I don't think it is meant as an actual date. :confused:

And hey, cool theory about Sam and the virus! :D

[Ehlwyen]

Huh! Maybe :lol: I was just assuming that from the fact that the room already looked like that before they knew that Gordon was after them and there was no reason for them to barricade themselves like that for a simple vampire hunt! *shrugs* I just found it funny! :D

Btw, I meant to ask you why you conclude from the sign on the wall about the 183 days without an accident that it is an actual count on Dean's days? I mean, we had a similar sign at the wall in Nightshifter and while it is a interesting detail I don't think it is meant as an actual date. :confused:

And hey, cool theory about Sam and the virus! :D

LOL, I was confused the first time when they were interrogating Lucy in there. But later realized it was just a single room like a motel room. I guess Dean wanted to pretend he was "rock star" for once and trash a room! :lol:

I just thought the 183 was so clear and bright compared to the rest of the background. My eyes were immediately drawn to it the first time watching the ep. And 183 days is half of 365. The season finale aired May 17 and this episode aired November 15. It was all so close to half a year that it seemed too big a coincidence.

Scary theory more like it! *huggles Sam*

[galathea]

I just thought the 183 was so clear and bright compared to the rest of the background. My eyes were immediately drawn to it the first time watching the ep. And 183 days is half of 365. The season finale aired May 17 and this episode aired November 15. It was all so close to half a year that it seemed too big a coincidence. Hm, interesting, I wouldn't completely rule it out, since the timeline was kind of majorly screwed up in Bedtime Stories. I mean, in AHBL Pt 1 Sam says that the whole psychic thing started a little over a year ago, which would place the finale into early 2007 at latest. So I see no way how we could be near Halloween (Bedtime Stories) already. With Sin City playing 2 months after they opened the devil's gate, they would've jumped 4 months forward without any good reason. /sigh I guess I just give up on the whole timeline thing and wait til they give us an actual date LOL.

[Ehlwyen]

Hm, interesting, I wouldn't completely rule it out, since the timeline was kind of majorly screwed up in Bedtime Stories. I mean, in AHBL Pt 1 Sam says that the whole psychic thing started a little over a year ago, which would place the finale into early 2007 at latest. So I see no way how we could be near Halloween (Bedtime Stories) already. With Sin City playing 2 months after they opened the devil's gate, they would've jumped 4 months forward without any good reason. /sigh I guess I just give up on the whole timeline thing and wait til they give us an actual date LOL.

Well S1 had to start ahead since the show premiered in mid September but timeline was 6 weeks into the future with Halloween. I think they realized all the shooting constraints and difficulties what with Route 666's snow in May and later ELAC's scorching hot weather while actors had to wear coats since it was supposed to be fall. So I think the show wants to be set closer to the time it airs. Instead of 5 or 6 months ahead of the season they are shooting in. :p

I think Sam saying he was only 23 was a flub. But under pressure I've said the wrong age before around my birthday so hey it's not that big a deal. And if 1.13 was supposed to be May, then they first met a psychic child after that and therefore it's not that big a stretch when Sam says it started a little over a year ago.

In addition I'm sure the network pushes for a show to take place around the time it airs to allow for tie-ins (like the mention of Halloween) or allow new viewers to slip into the show more seemlessly without having to figure out the time line is ahead.

Anyway I have always felt airdates are important to timeline either coinciding with the show or existing outside as a parallel. And when in doubt I use airdates as a default.

[Cori]

Being a total spoiler junkie, I've been looking forward to this episode for weeks now. :D This for various reasons: first off, I adore vampire storylines. Always have, always will. Secondly, I've loved SN's previous takes on vampires, s1's Dead Man's Blood and s2's Bloodlust. Btw how cool is it that each SN episode that deals with vampires has the word "blood" in the title? That totally made me squee. :) Thirdly, the premise of vamp hunter and vamp hater Gordon being turned into a vampire sounded just incredibly cool. Fourthly, I knew that Mercedes McNab would have a guest role as a vampire in Fresh Blood, which as a Buffy fan totally made me squee. :D So I had very high expectations for this week's episode and Sera Gamble has managed to surpass them all! Just when I was starting to feel a bit let down by the show, they create an episode like Fresh Blood and make me fall in love with the show all over again. :heart: After watching Fresh Blood, I've felt excited, giddy and my heart nearly burst from all the love for the boys! Not to mention that this episode turned me into a sobbing mess! Just when I was complaining that s3 did not move me and make me cry like the previous two seasons, Kripke & co. go ahead and make one of the best and most touching SN episodes ever! :heart: That will teach me to doubt the show again! ;) :lol:

Probably the only thing that I did not like in this amazing episode was the scene between Gordon and Bela. I mean why would an experienced hunter such as Gordon need Bela's help in tracking down the Winchesters? It just did not make sense at all IMO.

But that's really the only thing that I have to complain about, the rest of the episode was just fantastic, I'm totally in awe of Sera Gamble right now, she really knows her stuff! :)

I thought it was pretty cool that Mercedes McNab was again playing a vampire who is not entirely evil. I thought Mercedes did a good job as Lucy and it was great to see another Buffy alumn on the show. :D I love how Fresh Blood brought back memories of last season's Heart. Again, we have a young woman who has been turned into a monster against her will, a woman who does not want to be evil and kill people. Of course, Madison had more moral integrity than Lucy and chose her death rather than struggling against it like Lucy. Again, the boys sympathise with the young woman's fate and again they know they have no other choice than to kill her. Only this time it's Dean who does the killing and it's Sam who flinches at the sound of the girl getting killed. I really loved the parallels between the two episodes, that was some fantastic writing! :heart:

I know Bela is supposed to have no conscience and everything but I was still pissed off that she would sell out the boys to Gordon like that. I mean, they have saved her life in last week's episode! :mad: So I really enjoyed the scene where Dean threatened to kill her! And you could tell from his determined facial expression and the seriousness in his voice that he really meant it. Not being stupid, Bela realised this as well, which is why she decided to help out the boys in the end.

What is it with the vampires on SN? I always end up liking them! :lol: First Luthor, then Lenore and now Dixon. All are rich characters with layers, not your standard one-dimensional villains so kudos to the SN writers for that. I loved Dixon telling Gordon that he was just as bloodthirsty as he is because that is really the truth. As Gunn would say, Gordon has lost the mission a long time ago (if he ever had it to begin with, which I highly doubt). The fact that hunters killed Dixon's daughter (which is another interesting tidbit of info to the SN lore: vampires having kids!), which then becomes an important reason for Dixon to turn Gordon into a vampire and not just kill him and Gordon becoming the thing that he hates most and has hunted all of his life, there is a poetry to it all which I thought was fantastic and just beautifully written! :)

How it was shown that Gordon was a vampire now was shot beautifully, what with the extreme brightness of the light and the loudness of sound. Gordon staring at himself in the window with his bloodshot eyes was a great scene. Plus we now know that vampires do have a reflection in the SN verse, I love finding out about little stuff like that. :D

I immensely enjoyed the fact that Dixon is another vampire who can feel love and grief and that he wanted to have a new family after the death of his daughter because he felt lonely, as he said to Dean, he's staring down eternity alone. The things Dixon said about not caring anymore and about being dead already perfectly mirrored what Dean has been feeling recently and you could see it in his face. Another great parallel in an episode full of great parallels! :bounce:

Of course, Sam realises this as well and the fact that Dean wants to go after Gordon alone and is being reckless yet again makes Sam finally find the right words to get through to his brother and leads to my favourite scene of the episode and to one of the most touching SN scenes ever. :heart:

Sam: "You're scared, Dean. You're scared because your year is running out and you're still going to hell and you're freaked."

Dean: "How do you know that?"

Sam: "Because I know."

Dean: "Really?"

Sam: "Yeah because I've been following you around my entire life. I mean, I'd been looking up to you since I was four, Dean. Studying you, trying to be just like my big brother. So yeah, I know you. Better than anyone in the entire world. And this is exactly how you act when you're terrified. And I can't blame you, it's just ..."

Dean: "What?"

Sam: "It's just that I wish you would drop the show and be my big brother again. 'Cause, just 'cause."

:cutecry: :cutecry: :cutecry:

Even writing down these words almost makes me cry again. The entire scene was just so beautiful and touching, I love it so much! Sam appealing to his big brother and returning to his role of little brother and finally getting through to Dean. Dean finally hearing Sam and not being able to deny his little brother anything. You can see so many emotions on both their faces, it just kills me! Kudos to both Jared and Jensen for pulling off this scene as beautifully as they did! :heart: :heart: :heart:

And so we get to the final showdown between Gordon and the boys. Gordon is very clever and manages to split the brothers up and is thus able to go after Sam alone. The fact that Gordon turned an innocent girl into a vampire really shows you far gone he is. So they fight and Sam, seeing Dean being bitten by Gordon, manages to kill Gordon. The way Sam killed Gordon, as if he had super strength, is a very interesting plot twist. It could mean that he still has his powers, only now they have increased (much like they did with Ava). And if Sam really does have superpowers, he sure as hell did not know about them, I don't believe that he faked that look of utter surprise as he was staring down at his bloody hands. Or it could also be that Sam does not have superpowers after all, that it was just a freaky adrenaline thing. Either way, it's intriguing and adds another layer to Sam's character arc this season. Those writers really like to keep us guessing, don't they? ;)

Dean walking towards Sam after the fight with the 183 days sign behind him was awesome, I love how they subtly included that, emphasising the point that Dean's time really is running out.

Words cannot express how much I loved the last scene of the episode! :heart: The symbolism of Dean letting Sam look under the hood of the Impala and showing him how to fix the car was just wonderful to watch and totally made me squee! :heart: The following quote and the look the boys exchanged nearly killed me:

Dean: "It's time. You should know how to fix it. You need to know these things for the future. And besides, it's my job right? Show my little brother the ropes?"

Awwwwwww Dean! :wub: :heart: :wub:

So to sum up all my rambling and squeeing, I adored every second of this episode and it's definitely my favourite s3 episode so far! Everything I love about this show came together in Fresh Blood in an extremely beautiful and incredibly touching way so yeah, I'm pretty much in awe of this week's episode. :heart:

[Llywela]

Funny how we all manage to interpret things differently :D

Except that we're all agreed on how amazing this episode was ;) :heart:

Probably the only thing that I did not like in this amazing episode was the scene between Gordon and Bela. I mean why would an experienced hunter such as Gordon need Bela's help in tracking down the Winchesters? It just did not make sense at all IMO.
I had no problem with Gordon getting the information from Bela in that way - I mean, as an experienced hunter he still has to have ways and means of finding things out, and making use of someone known to have seen the boys recently would reduce his workload considerably. We saw Kubrick using a similar tracking method in 3.03, putting out feelers among all his contacts. It's a tried and trusted method of locating a fellow hunter, I'd have thought.

I know Bela is supposed to have no conscience and everything but I was still pissed off that she would sell out the boys to Gordon like that. I mean, they have saved her life in last week's episode! :mad: So I really enjoyed the scene where Dean threatened to kill her! And you could tell from his determined facial expression and the seriousness in his voice that he really meant it. Not being stupid, Bela realised this as well, which is why she decided to help out the boys in the end.
I had no problem with Bela selling the boys out, either. The whole point of her giving them that money last week was so she wouldn't have to feel she owed them anything. She turned it into a business transaction, which is now concluded, leaving her with no links to them, and no debt. She has been very clearly established as a character who does not want to feel any kind of loyalty or commitment to anyone, and she has only a passing acquaintance with the boys, which is based more on mutual loathing than anything else. She wouldn't feel that she owed them anything. She was a total bitch about it, of course, not stopping to think or care that she was putting them in danger, but it was completely in character for her. And so was helping them out - she looks after her own interests and no one else's. She took Dean's threat very seriously - as she should! - and wanted to buy back a bit of good will.

I thought it was pretty cool that Mercedes McNab was again playing a vampire who is not entirely evil. I thought Mercedes did a good job as Lucy and it was great to see another Buffy alumn on the show. :D I love how Fresh Blood brought back memories of last season's Heart. Again, we have a young woman who has been turned into a monster against her will, a woman who does not want to be evil and kill people. Of course, Madison had more moral integrity than Lucy and chose her death rather than struggling against it like Lucy. Again, the boys sympathise with the young woman's fate and again they know they have no other choice than to kill her. Only this time it's Dean who does the killing and it's Sam who flinches at the sound of the girl getting killed. I really loved the parallels between the two episodes, that was some fantastic writing! :heart:
Oh, absolutely. :heart: This show does parallels and contrasts so beautifully.

[Willow's Tara]

I have some questions for the US, How long does Supernatural/Hereos etc take a break in thier season finale? Because since we are getting the episodes almost right behind you guys, we are probably gonna end up having that Christmas Break thing (I understand where they are copming from since actors have thier families too).

Oh and one more thing, in TV Week it mentions this episode and stats actually who Meredas McNab is, but what annoys me is that they seem to have not know who Amber Benson was and didn't even give an inidiction for her from before when Bloodlust had aired here. But yet McNab is more known through Angel then Buffy. It's seems Amber is the only one who wouldn't get reongized (Well neither would Kristine Sutherland or Marcus Blucas my guess is), I think that's just stupid.

[Cori]

I had no problem with Gordon getting the information from Bela in that way - I mean, as an experienced hunter he still has to have ways and means of finding things out, and making use of someone known to have seen the boys recently would reduce his workload considerably. We saw Kubrick using a similar tracking method in 3.03, putting out feelers among all his contacts. It's a tried and trusted method of locating a fellow hunter, I'd have thought.

See, I wouldn't have had problems with this so much if Gordon had tried to find out about the whereabouts of the boys from other hunters, that would have made more sense IMO. I don't know, I just felt that Bela's apperance in this week's episode was a bit forced and contrived. Also, the fact that she has Dean's phone number and can just call him up like that. The few times we saw them meet they were not exactly friendly towards each other and now they have exchanged phone numbers? :confused:

Nothing against Bela because I do like her most of the times, I just think that this episode could have worked just as well (or even better) without her appearance in this episode. Gordon could have gotten the info on the boys somewhere else and the episode would still have worked.

I had no problem with Bela selling the boys out, either. The whole point of her giving them that money last week was so she wouldn't have to feel she owed them anything. She turned it into a business transaction, which is now concluded, leaving her with no links to them, and no debt. She has been very clearly established as a character who does not want to feel any kind of loyalty or commitment to anyone, and she has only a passing acquaintance with the boys, which is based more on mutual loathing than anything else. She wouldn't feel that she owed them anything. She was a total bitch about it, of course, not stopping to think or care that she was putting them in danger, but it was completely in character for her. And so was helping them out - she looks after her own interests and no one else's. She took Dean's threat very seriously - as she should! - and wanted to buy back a bit of good will.

Okay I guess you're right, it was in character for Bela. But it still managed to piss me off that she would be such an ungrateful bitch towards the boys. ;)

[Ehlwyen]

See, I wouldn't have had problems with this so much if Gordon had tried to find out about the whereabouts of the boys from other hunters, that would have made more sense IMO. I don't know, I just felt that Bela's apperance in this week's episode was a bit forced and contrived. Also, the fact that she has Dean's phone number and can just call him up like that. The few times we saw them meet they were not exactly friendly towards each other and now they have exchanged phone numbers? :confused:

Nothing against Bela because I do like her most of the times, I just think that this episode could have worked just as well (or even better) without her appearance in this episode. Gordon could have gotten the info on the boys somewhere else and the episode would still have worked.

Gordon hunting Bela down for information made enough sense. I'm sure he thought he could intimidate her. However, Gordon having a priceless artifact so he didn't have to make good on his threat and kill her was a poor plot device.

I'm imagining Dean had to call Bela at some point during the coordination of the party crashing plot. Which would make enough sense as to why Bela has his number.


Okay I guess you're right, it was in character for Bela. But it still managed to piss me off that she would be such an ungrateful bitch towards the boys. ;)

I agree. If Bela is supposed to be a villain, then fine. Woohoo to evil! But I am afraid the show will want to redeem her character. And this type of behavior makes me want to hate her and therefore see the Winchesters retaliate rather than be chummy or grudgingly accept her.

I guess loathsome is the word that best describes Bela. She hasn't been decisively evil for me to consider her cool. And she hasn't displayed any humanity for me connect and wish for her to redeem herself. Everything has been for greed. Evil people usually do things for power or personal pride. She doesn't even seem to have any pride just extreme arrogance. And apparently she's all talk since Dean making a face through the telephone was enough to scare her.

Her fear of Dean and scrambling to attempt to get off his hitlist was disgusting. If she'd flippantly laughed, I'd have been impressed. Let the games begin to see which of them is the most badass of them all. Instead she cowered like a pet who knew it had been bad and had been caught.

[Heather]

Her fear of Dean and scrambling to attempt to get off his hitlist was disgusting. If she'd flippantly laughed, I'd have been impressed. Let the games begin to see which of them is the most badass of them all. Instead she cowered like a pet who knew it had been bad and had been caught.

See, I must be one of the only people (if not THE only person) to have seen this scene as the comic relief in a very dark episode and not as a scene that should be taken seriously as character development. Bela's reaction to the "I'm-gonna-kill-you"-face-through-the-phone just made me laugh more than it made me think about her character. Mainly because she just stared Gordon in the eyes while he had a gun on her only a scene earlier.

I also think she KNOWS that Dean would make good on his promise to kill her, unlike with Gordon - who she doesn't know (or, if she does, doesn't know very well) - who she thought/hoped/prayed wouldn't actually pull the trigger and who she thought/hoped/prayed would fall for her wordy manipulation.

But with Dean, I think she realized that he'd actually put a bullet between her eyes when they crossed paths again and she did get afraid. Again, I didn't take this scene as seriously as I'm dissecting it at the moment - it just made me crack up laughing by how intimidating Dean Winchester is.

I loved how they used Bela in this episode, personally. If Gordon's source had been some anonymous nobody, I wouldn't have enjoyed the knife-in-the-back brand of betrayal that was served by Bela. I also wouldn't have enjoyed Dean scaring Bela into covering her own ass by contacting the spirits, or whatever it is she did exactly.

[Jenni Lou]

Loved seeing Mercedes McNab in anything, but was disappointed they killed her off so early.

Agreed. I thought she would be around for at least half the ep. It was a shame to see her go so early!


Mixing infected blood with Sam didn't affect him in Croatoan. So it brings up some interesting theories....

Love those thoughts! I totally forgot about Croatoan. I've really only watched every ep once so far...


I had no problem with Bela selling the boys out, either. The whole point of her giving them that money last week was so she wouldn't have to feel she owed them anything.

I'm actually enjoying Bela a lot. It gives the boy someone interesting to play off of. Unlike Gordon, she is isn't seeking to kill one or both of them. She just wants her payday. She reminds me a lot of Sark from Alias...except of course she isn't a genocidal businessman. :lol: But like Sark, she has those "flexible loyalties" that have her switching to what other team is going to get the better payday. I always seem to like those kind of characters. There's an honesty about them buried beneath all the lies they may sell.

I have some questions for the US, How long does Supernatural/Hereos etc take a break in thier season finale? Because since we are getting the episodes almost right behind you guys, we are probably gonna end up having that Christmas Break thing (I understand where they are copming from since actors have thier families too).

Well, most shows tend to go on hiatus from December to January. Typically the last new ep will air at the end of November/beginning of December and new ones will resume in the middle of January or sometimes February. So they will be off air for a good five-eight weeks.

Of course with the strike still ongoing, who know what we are in for...

[Ehlwyen]

See, I must be one of the only people (if not THE only person) to have seen this scene as the comic relief in a very dark episode and not as a scene that should be taken seriously as character development. Bela's reaction to the "I'm-gonna-kill-you"-face-through-the-phone just made me laugh more than it made me think about her character. Mainly because she just stared Gordon in the eyes while he had a gun on her only a scene earlier.

LOL, no, I also found it extremely funny that Dean intimidated her so. :lol: I was definitely cackling and pointing "in your face" at the television when it happened. :xd

It was when Bela called back trying to get into his good graces that was so, ugh! And you do bring up a hilarious point that Dean through the phone is more scary than Gordon with a gun to your face. :rolleyes: I am so glad he's gone. :3party:


I loved how they used Bela in this episode, personally. If Gordon's source had been some anonymous nobody, I wouldn't have enjoyed the knife-in-the-back brand of betrayal that was served by Bela. I also wouldn't have enjoyed Dean scaring Bela into covering her own ass by contacting the spirits, or whatever it is she did exactly.

I'm glad they used Bela as well since I think it made the episode move quicker with less time focused on tedium and the explaining on how Gordon found them. Who at the roadhouse tipped Gordon off in Hunted still nags at me.

And whether I like Bela's character or not, at least this episode added more to that character.

But like Sark, she has those "flexible loyalties" that have her switching to what other team is going to get the better payday.
"Flexible loyalties" never gets old does it. :xd :heart: I grin like an idiot each time you mention it. He always had some of the best lines.

I just wish Bela was as witty or even as conniving as him. I think the "oops I forgot to call" is rather lame. She could have flipped sides and had the Winchesters indebted to her and have made two scores out of the single deal. Unless she was hoping for repeat business from Gordon. Ick!

Bela's selling the information was understandable, Gordon did have a gun on her and she even managed to weasel a payday out of it. :xd However, falsely lamenting that she forgot to call and scrambling to find information to save her tail is cowardly and unlikeable to me.

But you bring up a good point that I'm not much for that type of character. I didn't really like Lindsey on ATS or Spike in the end of S4.

It's not the lack of loyalty that bothers me. It's the indecision or lack of judgment in not allying with the stronger of sides. Bela clearly felt the Winchesters were the stronger of the two yet she chose to help Gordon by keeping quiet. So she either lacks in judgment or actually kinda hoped Gordon would eliminate the Winchesters. Maybe she is was tired of them messing up her business.

Love those thoughts! I totally forgot about Croatoan. I've really only watched every ep once so far...
Well if the strike stretches on, you should totally take the time to go back. It's amazing the amount of parallels and reoccuring themes you can uncover with rewatches.

And thanks! :D I just wish the show would get around to explaining all these unanswered questions. *prays for the strike to end before new year*

[Jenni Lou]

"Flexible loyalties" never gets old does it. :xd :heart: I grin like an idiot each time you mention it. He always had some of the best lines.

Hell yeah he did!!


However, falsely lamenting that she forgot to call and scrambling to find information to save her tail is cowardly and unlikeable to me.

Yes, too true. Once she was free and had her mojo bag (:roll:) there is absolutely no reason why she shouldn't have warned them. Someone like her should realize that the Winchesters work more for her benefit than they do for her decline. In my estimation anyhow.

But you bring up a good point that I'm not much for that type of character. I didn't really like Lindsey on ATS or Spike in the end of S4.

I do like those characters. They don't have a real agenda; they're just greedy. You would think that would make them predictable but that's not always the case. I like Bela, Sark, Lindsey and s4 Spike.

Well if the strike stretches on, you should totally take the time to go back. It's amazing the amount of parallels and reoccuring themes you can uncover with rewatches.

Well you guys are the HUGE fans. I'm just a fan. I have so many things to rewatch it's ridiculous. I haven't even watched Buffy or Angel in about three years. Or the bulk of nine season of The X-Files in just about as long. And I am still trying to get the fiance to finish up Firefly which he has never seen. And we still have to watch Deadwood s3 and Battlestar Galactica s3.

AND I made him watch some eps from SN s3 and he really liked them. So I think at some point he will want to view the dvds. But I don't bet on it being anytime time soon with all the other crap he is behind on still. :lol:

There's just not enough time for it all. :(

[Llywela]

Personally, I felt that Bela simply didn't care enough one way or another to bother calling with any kind of warning. She does not want to get attached to anyone or anything - that is the strongest aspect of her characterisation so far. She gave Gordon what he wanted to get herself out of a sticky situation - and in profit, too - decided that he was no match for the Winchesters, and then dismissed the whole situation completely. Out of sight out of mind. It was only when Dean called and threatened her that she realised she'd miscalculated, and I love that she took his threat seriously. She knows him well enough to know that he was completely serious, and so wanted to buy back enough good will to get off his hit list.

I'm still not sure about the actress, but the character does shake things up a lot because she has no loyalties or ties to anyone, and doesn't want to form any. She gives me the impression of someone who has been burned badly in the past and refuses to ever go back there. I'm just not sure the actress has the depth to really pull it off, as we explore the character deeper in later episodes (which I'm assuming will happen). I hope I'm wrong.

[Willow's Tara]

I just watched the Pirate episode yesterday...I thought Bela was the black hunter chick in the season premier! Which episode did Bela appear in then?

[Jenni Lou]

I just watched the Pirate episode yesterday...I thought Bela was the black hunter chick in the season premier! Which episode did Bela appear in then?

3x03 Bad Day at Black Rock. She is the white thief with the English Accent.

The black chick in the premiere was named Tamara and she was a hunter whereas Bela is not. She just knows a lot about the trade since she works in the supernatural black market.

[Willow's Tara]

Ah! That would explain everything! I watched that episode at my relatives house and I couldn't really hear it (No offence to my relatives but they were a bit louder then the TV) and I think I kept being distracted as well, I don't remeber much of that episode so it explains why this is the first time I have seen Bela.

[slaycandy]

WOW. Okay it has taken me nearly a week to sit down and watch this episode, but wow, it was totally worth the wait! I loved Mercedes' guest appearance, even if it was over too quickly, but there were so many returning characters in this episode, I knew her scene would have to be quick... bringing me to my next point...

Okay, so when I saw that we had Bela, Gordon AND Kubrick all back for this episode, I was a little worried that the guest stars were going to get a lot of screen time and our boys were going to get shoved aside, but I think that this episode had a great balance between the guests and the brothers.

I absolutely adored the way this episode played out, there was so much going on, and getting wrapped up in it from the case in this town with the vampires and the blondes, to Gordon and Kubricks attack on the boys, to Gordon's hunting of Sam, to Bela's involvement and her fear (I would say guilt, but I think it was more fear than anything), and most of all the biggest component for me was the boys bonding, Sam breaking through to Dean, and the final scene at the car. There was just so much to sink your teeth into with this episode! ;)

Bottom line: I loved it, and can't wait for more just like it.

I have to say though, I really thought that when Sam and Gordon were alone in the room we might see Sam's eyes glisten like Jake's did and his powers unleash and for Gordon to start telling him he was right, and he's dangerous, that he needs to die, and then Sam would kill him and not tell Dean what had happened. That was just how I imagined it playing out when the shutter fell down. But hey I like it this way, now I'm still left wondering if Sam's powers really did come out in some kind of super-strength way, or if perhaps that was just Sammy. :P

Also, a note to Galathea about the dates of the show and where we are roughly, obviously Bedtime Stories was around Halloween, and (episode name spoiler coming up)
There is a 'Very Supernatural Christmas' episode around episode 10 or something according to imdb coming up.
So that would place this episode around November, the current date probably, so I guess it is about 6 months since May, no?

SJ
xox

[galathea]

Also, a note to Galathea about the dates of the show and where we are roughly, obviously Bedtime Stories was around Halloween, and (episode name spoiler coming up)
There is a 'Very Supernatural Christmas' episode around episode 10 or something according to imdb coming up.
So that would place this episode around November, the current date probably, so I guess it is about 6 months since May, no? Yep, I know! The problem is, that from what could be gathered from actual dates on the show, the timeline wasn't following the air dates but each season only comprised about 8-9 months. The last official date we were given was in Roadkill, which played on the 20th of February. Then in AHBL pt I Sam mentions it's a little over a year since the abilities started (which would be around November 05 when he started having nightmares about Jess, so a little over a year would make it the beginning of 07 at most), plus he mentions that he is 23 to Jake and the others which would place AHBL before May, 2nd. We know that Sin City plays roughly 2 months after the devil's gate opened, which would make it July at most, so there would suddenly be an jump of over 3 months from SC to BS, which makes no sense.

As Lyn said, we might have to choke it all up to a fluke and for the writers to want to actually catch up with the air dates and hence mess with the timeline in S3. *shrugs*

[KingofCretins]

It's an impossible standard for most TV shows to keep without the audience suspending disbelief. Go back and contemplate the actual subjective timelines of Buffy Season 7 and Angel Season 4. Angel Season 4 honestly takes place in, like, three weeks.

For something like Supernatural, I'd just pretend that they were hunting things that weren't interesting enough for us to see the rest of the time :)

[galathea]

It's an impossible standard for most TV shows to keep without the audience suspending disbelief. Go back and contemplate the actual subjective timelines of Buffy Season 7 and Angel Season 4. Angel Season 4 honestly takes place in, like, three weeks.

For something like Supernatural, I'd just pretend that they were hunting things that weren't interesting enough for us to see the rest of the time :) So far the timeline was a bit shaky but it was followable, at least on a basic level, so the sudden jump irritates me. It is true that you have to have a certain suspend of disbelief and I am cool with that, but if one of your main themes of the season is how one of your main characters is on the limited lifespan of 1 year, I would expect a more acurate handling of time, since your audience really, really wants to know how much time their beloved character has left! A sudden jump of 3-4 months is a serious business in that specific case! ;) :lol:

[Ehlwyen]

A sudden jump of 3-4 months is a serious business in that specific case! ;) :lol:

LMAO!!! :lol: And that was my biggest beef with last season's finale. They tell us Dean has one year and then decide to take 4.5 months for a "suuuuummer hiiiiiatus" *sneers*. Bah! It's not realistic that the boys took that time off. So that's where the whole problem arises. They want to show us the immediate fallout from the finale, but then have to quickly jump ahead. :p

Basically, the amount that these boys spend on the road driving can consume days with ease. And that time is rarely factored in or shown in an episode. Case in point, it probably took 16-18 hours driving time in 3.04 for the drive from Bobby's to Sin City. The boys are hardcore but they have to sleep, eat, and potty break from time to time. And after finishing a job, they then have to do research to connect the dots and find a new job. So I sometimes feel the episodes span much more time than can fit into a week. Then add in the "unaccounted time" that leaves openings for millions of fanfics.

Ultimately, seven cases in two or three months really feels like a rushed pace for the Winchesters if they were real people doing this. Seven cases in six months is on the slow side. But factoring in Dean's decadence and "barely give a damn" attitude plus all the researched from newspaper cases, it's not that slow.

*does actual math* Okay with 22 episodes a year, that averages to about 2.3 weeks per case. 7 cases in 3 months is 1.7 weeks per case. And 7 cases in 6 months is 3.7 weeks per case.

*looks back* I'm not sure if I really had a point. Just rambling that I think that the Winchesters can't possibly average a case per week and a case per month is too slow.

Anyway, Ruby's casting sides ran similar to the motel scene in Sin City. Those were released the beginning of July and I just have to wonder if that's where the timeframe of "two months from the devil's gate opening" originated. Two months was meant to be a placeholder until the timeline was actually hammered out. Perhaps the scene was meant to be in an earlier episode. Though more likely the writers were too busy writing scripts for the strike stockpile that they didn't have the chance to go back to edit the script to be more than two months.

[ciderdrinker]

Wow, oh Wow this episode was fantastic!!

Gordon finally getting his comeuppance was extremely satisfying, and Dean and Sam talking about things that are difficult for both of them to discuss :heart:

I really liked the way we were shown how a new vamp feels and sees - something that was never done on Buffy or Angel to it's detriment I think. With Mercedes McNab's Lucy introducing that it was like a drug she couldn't come down from to Gordon staggering around being blinded by the light and freaked out by the noises - Spike told us that becoming a vamp is a profound and powerful experience and this did a good job showing that.

Does anyone else think that the "mojo bag" that Bela took off Gordon will have significance down the line? I just thought when watching it that it was because he gave it to her that he couldn't defend himself against being vamped - like it warded off vampires or something. He was very reluctant to give it to her, and she seemed unnecessary to the plot, so that would explain why she was included.

Dean accepting that Sam can see that he really is frightened about dying was brilliant. I loved Dixon's speech about staring down eternity alone was worse than hell, but that Dean replied that Hell was just as scary sealed that he is terrified about it - in the same way as he was when he imagined living his life without John and Sam in it at the end of S2. Good to see that Dean understands what a mess he's made, and I think part of him regrets it.

What can I say about the final scene with the car? Perfect comes to mind!

[Llywela]

Wow, oh Wow this episode was fantastic!!
For once, everyone seems to be in absolute agreement on that fact! :heart:
I really liked the way we were shown how a new vamp feels and sees - something that was never done on Buffy or Angel to it's detriment I think. With Mercedes McNab's Lucy introducing that it was like a drug she couldn't come down from to Gordon staggering around being blinded by the light and freaked out by the noises - Spike told us that becoming a vamp is a profound and powerful experience and this did a good job showing that.
Yeah, although of course, the SN vampire mythology is completely different to that of the buffyverse, and so really can't be compared. ;) In the buffyverse, to be turned a person's blood had to be completely drained, so the demon could set up shop in their dead body. The demon had their memories, but wasn't the same person. SN vampire transformation is more like a virus. It only takes a drop of vampire blood mingled with that of a human to transform them, no draining required, and it is the same person transformed, rather than a demon inhabiting their corpse. So direct comparisons aren't really possible, as it would be a completely different experience. Lucy thought it was a drug high because Dixon had told her he was giving her a drug, so because she was in complete denial over what had happened to her, that was how she explained it to herself.
Does anyone else think that the "mojo bag" that Bela took off Gordon will have significance down the line? I just thought when watching it that it was because he gave it to her that he couldn't defend himself against being vamped - like it warded off vampires or something. He was very reluctant to give it to her, and she seemed unnecessary to the plot, so that would explain why she was included.
I did wonder at the time just what the bag was and what it was used for, how Gordon got hold of it, fresh out of prison as he was. Honestly, though, I think it was just a plot device. They wanted to show Bela selling the boys out as part of her character establishment, and decided Gordon was more likely to have some kind of supernatural relic she'd be interested in than ready cash. It would be interesting to learn more, but since Bela tends to sell everything on as fast as she can, I doubt we ever will.
Dean accepting that Sam can see that he really is frightened about dying was brilliant. I loved Dixon's speech about staring down eternity alone was worse than hell, but that Dean replied that Hell was just as scary sealed that he is terrified about it - in the same way as he was when he imagined living his life without John and Sam in it at the end of S2. Good to see that Dean understands what a mess he's made, and I think part of him regrets it.
There is no doubt that Dean is terrified of what lies ahead of him, but I can't see him ever regretting the choice that he made that day. He might regret the way his behaviour since has affected Sam, but he'll never regret choosing Sam's life above his own. He just isn't wired that way. Although he was definitely relating to Dixon's words, he actually showed less fear in that scene than he has in the past - his comment about hell was black humour, rather than an admission of fear. He wouldn't show fear in that way, not in front of Sam - his walls of denial were way too high, and only came down later because Sam's raw pain opened the door.

[ciderdrinker]

Yeah, although of course, the SN vampire mythology is completely different to that of the buffyverse, and so really can't be compared. ;) In the buffyverse, to be turned a person's blood had to be completely drained, so the demon could set up shop in their dead body. The demon had their memories, but wasn't the same person. SN vampire transformation is more like a virus. It only takes a drop of vampire blood mingled with that of a human to transform them, no draining required, and it is the same person transformed, rather than a demon inhabiting their corpse. So direct comparisons aren't really possible, as it would be a completely different experience. Lucy thought it was a drug high because Dixon had told her he was giving her a drug, so because she was in complete denial over what had happened to her, that was how she explained it to herself.

I agree about the vampire mythology being different, but all I was really trying to say was that it was a missed opportunity not to show it on BtVS or AtS and that it was done really well here. In the Buffyverse (especially regarding Angel) vampirism is an alcoholism metaphor but here as a virus or a drug metaphor it still works, in it invades all your senses and ability to make sense of the choices you have.

I did wonder at the time just what the bag was and what it was used for, how Gordon got hold of it, fresh out of prison as he was. Honestly, though, I think it was just a plot device. They wanted to show Bela selling the boys out as part of her character establishment, and decided Gordon was more likely to have some kind of supernatural relic she'd be interested in than ready cash. It would be interesting to learn more, but since Bela tends to sell everything on as fast as she can, I doubt we ever will.

How do we know that Gordon hadn't had that bag all along, why do we assume he's only just got it? But I guess you're right about it being a plot device, my mind just wanted there to be a better reason to include Bela in an episode that mainly focusses on events from S2

There is no doubt that Dean is terrified of what lies ahead of him, but I can't see him ever regretting the choice that he made that day. He might regret the way his behaviour since has affected Sam, but he'll never regret choosing Sam's life above his own. He just isn't wired that way. Although he was definitely relating to Dixon's words, he actually showed less fear in that scene than he has in the past - his comment about hell was black humour, rather than an admission of fear. He wouldn't show fear in that way, not in front of Sam - his walls of denial were way too high, and only came down later because Sam's raw pain opened the door.

Maybe I should have made myself clearer. I don't think that Dean is regretting saving Sam, or even giving up his own life for Sam, but more that he could've found another way to help him. The deal was made amidst grief and now that he has Sam back, he has had a chance to revisit his thoughts on it, and regrets jumping into the deal so quickly. Maybe, he's thinking that had he had more time to think it through there might have been an alternative.

And regarding the black humour part, yes I agree that it was defensive and nothing more in Dean's eyes, but everyone slips up and lets out things about themselves through humour at times. Sam noticed this remark and it increased his conviction about Dean being terrified - just an example of it for Sam to add to the list of times he'd seen it before.

[Llywela]

IHow do we know that Gordon hadn't had that bag all along, why do we assume he's only just got it? But I guess you're right about it being a plot device, my mind just wanted there to be a better reason to include Bela in an episode that mainly focusses on events from S2
I'm fairly certain he wouldn't have been allowed to have it in prison - they've got pretty strict rules about personal belongings, right?

Maybe I should have made myself clearer. I don't think that Dean is regretting saving Sam, or even giving up his own life for Sam, but more that he could've found another way to help him. The deal was made amidst grief and now that he has Sam back, he has had a chance to revisit his thoughts on it, and regrets jumping into the deal so quickly. Maybe, he's thinking that had he had more time to think it through there might have been an alternative.
I still don't see him regretting it. It was a decision made on impulse, born of grief and desperation, but there was no other way to get Sam back - it's always been made very clear on this show that death is final. It was either make that deal or let Sam go, and he was not prepared to let Sam go. Sam's death was the end of everything he'd worked toward all his life. He'd struggled so hard to hold the family together, had both John and Sam tell him over and over how much they were relying on him to save Sam, and he couldn't live with that perceived failure. He's always valued Sam's life above his own, and I think that the knowledge that he's done what was asked of him and saved Sam, the knowledge that Sam will live on after he's gone, that's the only comfort he has to hold onto in the face of what is lying ahead of him.

[Willow's Tara]

Lywela- Just a bit confused, so the person turned into a vampire is still the same person? What happens to thier soul? Do they keep it or what? And it does make you wonder, SN vampires seemed to be more resisant to human bloof then Buffy's (Execpt Angel could control it, even when the temptation rised), like Lenore for example was able to resist, but it makes me wonder, when did she start resisting? At the beginning of her vampire timeline? (Same with the other vampires in her family, not Familyp- family but you know what I mean), and if SN's vampires don't have souls, would they able to get it back (Like how Spike got his?)..

Gotta love vamp talk on Supernatura, Angel/Spike and occasionally Darla/Dru/Harmony gets dragged in lol

[galathea]

Lywela- Just a bit confused, so the person turned into a vampire is still the same person? What happens to thier soul? Do they keep it or what? And it does make you wonder, SN vampires seemed to be more resisant to human bloof then Buffy's (Execpt Angel could control it, even when the temptation rised), like Lenore for example was able to resist, but it makes me wonder, when did she start resisting? At the beginning of her vampire timeline? (Same with the other vampires in her family, not Familyp- family but you know what I mean), and if SN's vampires don't have souls, would they able to get it back (Like how Spike got his?)..

Gotta love vamp talk on Supernatura, Angel/Spike and occasionally Darla/Dru/Harmony gets dragged in lol This is why it is important to keep in mind that vampire mythologies in the Buffyverse and Supernatural are completely different and are not comparable. In Supernatural the soul does NOT come into play at all with supernatural creatures. While in the Buffyverse vampirism is demonology (the person has to die in order for the demon to take over and it only has the memories of the person), vampirism in SN is like a virus, a blood infection. It leaves the person intact, only turns it into a vampire, with all the added physical features and a desire for blood. A vampire in SN still has a choice to act evil or not, to refuse to give into the bloodlust.

There is no distinction between soulless/souled, you need to let go of that characterisation when you look at SN vampires. Where in the Buffyverse the soul served as the conscience, that allows an otherwise completely evil creature to act on a moral impulse, vampires in SN still have those moral impulses intact right from the start and hence don't need that distinction that the Buffyverse incorporated.

Lenore started to change her behaviour when she realised that vampires are a nearly extinct race and that the vampire community as well as the hunters community need to change in order to come to a peaceful co-existence. She changed in order to prove that vampires are not evil by definition and hence have a right to live.

[Ehlwyen]

There is no distinction between soulless/souled, you need to let go of that characterisation when you look at SN vampires. Where in the Buffyverse the soul served as the conscience, that allows an otherwise completely evil creature to act on a moral impulse, vampires in SN still have those moral impulses intact right from the start and hence don't need that distinction that the Buffyverse incorporated.

Good points.

I also think it's important to say that the show has done its best to remain ambiguous on the presence of God or a higher power. Therefore the existence of a soul is also uncertain.

While the soul and "who we are" are often used interchangeably there is actually a distinction. The Winchesters and SN deal with spirits and remnants of our human self image and memories. Therefore, all the dead creatures and monsters retain some of the "who they were" essence.

"Who we are" is a fragile entity born of our life search to discover our own identity and the experiences that shape us. After death, without the material body for our self image entity to be attached and protected by, the spirit realm distorts and tears away at the vulnerable entity. This is what leads to the madness and misperceptions of spirits over time.

Since the vampire still animates a body, the human essence of "who it was" remains largely intact and protected from the universe. This why in SN we see vampires who keep the same affections and motives as their human counterpart.

[galathea]

I also think it's important to say that the show has done its best to remain ambiguous on the presence of God or a higher power. Therefore the existence of a soul is also uncertain.I am not sure if the concept of the soul is something Kripke already has clearly defined for the mythology of the show, but at least it exists as an idea. Sam and Dean use the term 'soul' for John's and Dean's deal: 'Did you sell your soul for me, like Dad did for you?' We know with the Crossroads demon the body is most likely torn apart by the hellhounds (CRB), the deal with the YED left John's body dead and he was even salted and burned later, still his 'essence' was 'alive' and tortured in hell, before he could free himself, implying that after all what was left of John was still John, the person we knew. So, I think when it comes to humans, the soul as the essence of a person is a valid concept even in the SN verse.

[Ehlwyen]

I am not sure if the concept of the soul is something Kripke already has clearly defined for the mythology of the show, but at least it exists as an idea.

Very true. I also believe that through the breaking of Dean's deal the show will have to explore the existence of God and now Lucifer or whatever hierarchy. :2party:

Sam and Dean use the term 'soul' for John's and Dean's deal: 'Did you sell your soul for me, like Dad did for you?'
Well, I believe 'soul' is just the generally accepted loose term for our non-physical self. If a tv show tried to go too metaphysical, it would lose most of its audience. I'm just trying to throw my own interpretation of things out there. I accept and use 'soul' as the generic layman's term. However, when it comes to understanding the logics of the supernatural, I split the raw spark of life from the memories that define us.

We know with the Crossroads demon the body is most likely torn apart by the hellhounds (CRB), the deal with the YED left John's body dead and he was even salted and burned later, still his 'essence' was 'alive' and tortured in hell, before he could free himself, implying that after all what was left of John was still John, the person we knew. So, I think when it comes to humans, the soul as the essence of a person is a valid concept even in the SN verse.

I'm sorry, I didn't clarify myself well. I believe that if a soul truly exists there has to be a higher power. Since Dean and the show have tried to keep that question unanswered, then what exactly Dean and John sold is not specifically defined.

I believe the raw spark of life in us is what is valuable as a trading commodity. I believe the "who we are" portion is what binds us to this world. That until we can let go of what we were in this life, we can't move on. Perhaps the show will define the two as the same under the word 'soul'. Perhaps John's essence was so determined that it couldn't move on or that John sold it in the deal as well by design or surrendered it inadvertently.

It's also entirely possible that there is no higher power and actual soul. That instead the Winchesters mortgaged something that didn't exist and are bound by much weaker contract terms. Truly Sam needs to get his hand on some paperwork and see exactly what Dean has sold rather than just assume the demon gets everything of Dean. Those demons always seem to bitch about red tape, it's about time we get that red tape working for us! :lol:

Thanks for calling me on that, it was fun to explore. :hug: My original post was oriented towards when the Winchesters deal with spirits, they either destroy it by salt/fire or the spirit accepts that "who they were" will never be again and then moves on. I think the latter is the soul shedding the personal self image we attach to it through our life.

[Willow's Tara]

Ehlwyn- Thanks for clearing that up, I didn't get the entire mythology of Sn vampires until you told me. It's a bit sad that there aren't very many vamps who can control thier bloodlust if you think about it, but then again Dean/Sam haven't been everywhere (Doubt they are gonna leave the states either, if they do start hunting in Australia lol)

[Ehlwyen]

I watching the rerun last night and got thinking about Gordon saying he recognized he was now a monster and would kill himself after killing Sam.

My first gut reaction is liar, you've gotten power, if you weren't corrupted before, you'll definitely be corrupted now. But snap judgments can sometimes overlook other possible outcomes.

Never a fan of Gordon, I immediately saw his becoming a crazed vampire as just the opportunity for his inner monster and ugliness to surface. But from the first preview commericial of Bloodlust, I was struck that Gordon had similarities with Blade who did use his monster power for good.

So my question becomes, "is rehabilition of demonic/monster humans possible?" And from that, "is it possible that Gordon may have had the conviction to fight back the demonic urges and harness the power for good." Does anyone in this SN universe? Particularly those that have already killed? Obviously this ultimately comes back to Sam's predicament so that can be discussed and paralleled in your responses.

[KingofCretins]

It's worth mentioning that if anybody found that episode with Gordon very thought-provoking (I did, being one of only a handful of "Supernatural" episodes I've seen), you would probably find some intrigue in a particular plotline of "Angel: After the Fall" which is quite similar.

I have this episode on my DVR, and I still am not sure how Sam's killing of Gordon with the razor wire isn't supposed to be alarming, particularly to Dean, since Sam seemed indifferent to it.

Maybe I'm predisposed to think of it as a superhuman feat of strength since it's the exact thing that Buffy did to the ubervamp. But is it consistent with the rules of the "Supernatural"-verse?

[Ehlwyen]

I have this episode on my DVR, and I still am not sure how Sam's killing of Gordon with the razor wire isn't supposed to be alarming, particularly to Dean, since Sam seemed indifferent to it.

Maybe I'm predisposed to think of it as a superhuman feat of strength since it's the exact thing that Buffy did to the ubervamp. But is it consistent with the rules of the "Supernatural"-verse?


It is supposed to be alarming, the fact that Dean doesn't show alarm is the point. Dean and Sam have been down this path of freaking out about Sam's destiny before. It's as if the end has begun, they realize this and can't do anything so they're not going to overreact and freak out. They'll just deal with Sam's possible going evil/demon when it happens.

Not to mention the fact Dean realizes he's not going to be there to protect Sam much longer so he's going to have to stop being over protective and let Sam find his own way.

And it's the Sam going evil and having to be saved that I was referring to as his "predicament." :lol:

[galathea]

So my question becomes, "is rehabilition of demonic/monster humans possible?" And from that, "is it possible that Gordon may have had the conviction to fight back the demonic urges and harness the power for good." Does anyone in this SN universe? Particularly those that have already killed? Obviously this ultimately comes back to Sam's predicament so that can be discussed and paralleled in your responses. Well, there's at least two instances that come spontanously to mind and that's Andy and Lenore. Harmless pranks aside, Andy was never tempted to use his power for evil and even killing a human being didn't push him into it. Like Ava or Jake he did expand his powers, tap into the potential and still kept his good natured self. If we see the psychic children's power as demonic in origin, because of the demonic blood ritual, Andy's example shows us that it's all in the intention of the human and not necessarily in the demonic power itself. I think the same applies to Sam's situation.

The same applies to Lenore. Ultimately her motivation to suppress her vampiric instincts is obviously a simple survival technique, but it shows that these instincts are controllable. The vampires we see in Bloodlust were pretty well assimilated into human society, which I think shows that they retain a lot of their human persona. Theoretically I see no reason why Lenore wouldn't only not kill but instead also could decide to use her power for a good cause.

I still am not sure how Sam's killing of Gordon with the razor wire isn't supposed to be alarming, particularly to Dean, since Sam seemed indifferent to it. I don't see Sam as being indifferent. If you watch his reactions he is dazed and stunned after the act and looks a bit lost as if he can't quite grasp what he just has done either. If there was any demonic power in that action, it was nothing Sam acively controlled in that moment. At least that's my impression.

Maybe I'm predisposed to think of it as a superhuman feat of strength since it's the exact thing that Buffy did to the ubervamp. But is it consistent with the rules of the "Supernatural"-verse? That depends on 2 factors:

a) Is it really impossible to sever a head from a torso only with human strength and an extreme rush of adrenalin? I don't know that for sure, but it's not unheard of that people showed extraordinary strength in stress situations.

b) Even if it is only possible with superhuman strength then it's still justifiable within the rules of the verse, if we assume that Sam still has his powers and they are only dormant at the moment. In that case he could've unlocked 'superstrength' subconsciously because he was under severe stress to save his brother and himself. He did that once before in 'Nightmare' where he used telekinesis under similar circumstances.

If neither a) or b) is correct, then it is a fluke in writing.

[Ehlwyen]

Well, there's at least two instances that come spontanously to mind and that's Andy and Lenore. Harmless pranks aside, Andy was never tempted to use his power for evil and even killing a human being didn't push him into it. Like Ava or Jake he did expand his powers, tap into the potential and still kept his good natured self. If we see the psychic children's power as demonic in origin, because of the demonic blood ritual, Andy's example shows us that it's all in the intention of the human and not necessarily in the demonic power itself. I think the same applies to Sam's situation.

The same applies to Lenore. Ultimately her motivation to suppress her vampiric instincts is obviously a simple survival technique, but it shows that these instincts are controllable. The vampires we see in Bloodlust were pretty well assimilated into human society, which I think shows that they retain a lot of their human persona. Theoretically I see no reason why Lenore wouldn't only not kill but instead also could decide to use her power for a good cause.

Thanks, though I was hoping to get more of a character analysis of Gordon. I have such blind dislike to the character I really don't see clearly. Was he such a bad person that he had no hope of not embracing and exploiting his vampire monsterness? Or did his quest to kill monsters supercede all?

Andy killed a person by human means rather than his powers so he never really crossed the threshold, imo. Ava and Jake never came back, though did they really ever have an opportunity? I obviously believe Sam will come back so I agree there is choice. But is innate being the main factor or does reason and mind have its chance to sway a person back?

Lenore and her crowd's circumstances of before turning and the events leading to when we met them are so varied I really find speculation too open. As well as I was more interested in Gordon's fate if Sam had not stopped him.

[Llywela]

It seems pretty clear that there is a massive element of choice with the so-called special children. The whole set-up in All Hell Breaks Loose made that pretty clear - if it was about flipping a switch, the YED would have just done so. It didn't. It played them all off against each other, forcing them into an extremis that required them to either tap into their innate powers or die. There was an active choice to cross that line required at all times, but perhaps the innate power they all had made crossing the line more dangerous than for ordinary people, because they could go that much further.

My reading of Gordon in Fresh Blood was that his obsession was all-consuming, and that remained true after he'd been turned, it was still all he could see. But whether he'd have stuck to his stated purpose of killing himself is highly debatable. He thought he'd do it, because it was ingrained in him as what must be done to monsters, and because he hates vampires that much. But if he was going to do it, he'd have done it in that first moment. Once he's reasoned that he'll just wait until he's completed his mission, then made his first kill, then taken out Kubrick...it's a slippery slope, and he no longer has anything approaching a conscience to hold him back. I do think he meant it when he said it, but I also think his vampiric nature would have made following through on the intention highly debatable.

[galathea]

Thanks, though I was hoping to get more of a character analysis of Gordon. I have such blind dislike to the character I really don't see clearly. Was he such a bad person that he had no hope of not embracing and exploiting his vampire monsterness? Or did his quest to kill monsters supercede all? Oh lol sorry I misunderstood you then. Well, I am not sure how you would define bad person. Gordon did have strong convictions to protect the innocent, but over the years his obsession overruled any restrictions he might have had in the beginning. For me Gordon had gone partly insane long before he became a vampire so in his particular case I don't think rehabilitation would've been possible because in my opinion it would've already been impossible when he was simply human. There is no doubt that even before he was a vampire he deemed every action justifiable as long as it served his purpose, crossing lines constantly. Becoming a vampire simply was an added component to that.

So yeah, I do think that it does come back to the innate being. If Sam should ever go evil (and I still pray he doesn't) I think he has to make a choice in the matter and probably will have a misguided sense of justification for his actions and hence will be able to find his way back. How he would be able to live with his actions afterwards would be an entirely different matter though. That's of course if we rule out the factor of Sam becoming evil because of his resurrection status. That's still a completely unpredictable factor, that could be used in any direction really to explain Sam's actions retroactively.

Edit: Forgot to say: In a sense I think we can say that Sam is at the moment wandering a similar path to Gordon's. He's good at heart but in his desperation to save Dean he has a motivation to constantly cross little lines and find himself at the wrong end of the spectrum in the end, blinded by his goal, without realizing it. I think that Gordon started out the same way, but unlike him, Sam has someone to pull him back. That's at least what I hope if that particular scenario comes true! :lol: