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plamivasi
29-10-10, 02:02 PM
I thought it's been a long time since we had one. Here's a small meta on why Spike and Buffy are unique and one.

Buffy and Spike are truly one.

Two parts of a puzzle. I've come to this conclusion with the help of all the wonderful meta out there(Check out http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif?v=1 (http://angearia.livejournal.com/profile)angearia (http://angearia.livejournal.com/)'s Effulgent love (http://angearia.livejournal.com/185085.html)) and my own mind(of course).

I've just found one more example which confirms this statement.
So Buffy has sex with Spike in Smashed for the first time. A whole lotta sex which is quite different from the sex she's had with Angel and Riley. How's it different? It's violent, passionate and uncontrollable like an impetuous stream and a blazing fire. She doesn't need to be careful with him and he doesn't need to be careful with her. They're both one entity. The world around them falls but they don't notice it because in that moment they are complete and nothing else matters. Light and darkness merge together and create ungovernability, lust and a vehement storm.


http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn245/pamsblau/BuffyS06EP09-Smashedavi_002402279.png


However, Buffy still hasn't realised that she needs the darkness( which Spike can give her) and Spike still hasn't understood that he needs the light (which she carries) in order to be a better man. They need each other. Ying and Yang. But Buffy's been torned out of heaven and suffers. She hasn't got time for life dilemmas. They only bring pain and dissatisfaction in her life. The fact that she doesn't belong anywhere in this world crushes her.
Spike who once looked up to Buffy as a hero, who tried to change for her, now sees this fallen angel who can't cope with the situation, who can't find her place on this earth. He decides to step in and she decides to search and find her peace with him. She can't deal with this hard life right now so her only other option is death. We all know that it's a lot easier to be bad and to give up than to be good and to try. So instead of helping each other, Buffy and Spike hold each other back. Buffy doesn't have the strength to give Spike her light and she gives in his darkness. He accepts that and he lures her in it. They have sex which results in badness.


http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn245/pamsblau/BuffyS06EP10-Wreckedavi_000320239.png

"Last night was the end of this freak show."



Buffy still can't accept her dark side and i think this lasts till season 7. She acknowledges the fact that it's there but she can't fully take it in as part of her.


"Nothing's changed. It was a mistake."



Nothing's changed really. She still wants to be the shiny sunny Buffy she was but she can't understand that the clouds were always there.

Then the AR scene happens and we never get a chance to explore the dark side of the Spike/Buffy relationship again. Season 7 is a whole new beginning for Spuffy. It's about the bright side of the 'ship. The darkness seems to be gone.


http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn245/pamsblau/BuffyS07EP20-Touchedavi_001944439.png


But it's still there. In Spike.


http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn245/pamsblau/BuffyS07EP21-EndOfDaysavi_001564999.png

"And, uh, last night...was just a glitch. A bit of cold comfort from the cellar dweller. Let's don't make a thing out of it."



Spike can't fully accept the light just like Buffy can't accept the darkness. By the end, though they finally realise that. Although Buffy knows it all along.


Spike: You never had it so good as me. Never

Buffy takes this in, shaken. It's true.


It would take some time before she finally admits it in season 8:

"You're my dark place, Spike."

Spike becomes aware of this as well:

"It was the best night of my life."



In the end they both find what they're looking for. Buffy--the violence which is part of her and which she has to accept and Spike--the tenderness and true love. They finally become one ♥.

plamivasi
30-10-10, 10:51 AM
This is great ! Thanks you for share with us:hug:. I read it in Lj and I`m absolutely agree. I think there is so much to discuss, but personaly I need more time to think and add some questions.:D

Thank you:hug:

I think i'll ask some questions for a start. Maybe they're old but it's a discussion thread so the more the merrier.

1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?

7) Do you like their reunion in the comics? If yes/no why?

Beck
31-10-10, 01:07 AM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?
Spuffy was always one of my favourite Buffyverse ships. I adore Spike and I think he understands Buffy well. I enjoy them on screen together, its pretty much as simple as that.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?
Season 4, but i kinda hoped they'd hook up way before that :p

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?
His speech to her in Season 7, when he inspired her to go back and take on Caleb.

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?
Of course. They didn't get much of a chance for a real relationship, and I think it would have headed there after Season 7 (I dont read the comics). Spike soulled in a relationship with Buffy is a lot different to Season 6 Spuffy so there could have been a lot to explore there.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?
Always.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?
With Spike. He was soulless but Buffy treated him appallingly in Season 6. I honestly think that was the only reason for the attempted rape scene - to make Buffy the victim of the relationship instead of Spike.

_Buffy_
31-10-10, 11:48 AM
6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?
With Spike. He was soulless but Buffy treated him appallingly in Season 6. I honestly think that was the only reason for the attempted rape scene - to make Buffy the victim of the relationship instead of Spike.


It is very interestin point of view . I never was thinking in this way. If we consider Spike like a victim in this relationship / IMO he is not victim. He knew Buffy use him and kinda he is agree with /, but if we consider he like victim, then why not he stay victim. Why has Buffy to be the victim ? Doesn`t she suffer enough with Angel and Riley ? :s

Pike
01-11-10, 01:21 AM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?

Of course.. I always hated to see it end. I defiantly hated the way it ended the first time. Then, I sat through an entire season 7 waiting for something to come again..

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?

Well as a first time viewer it had to be during their first kiss.. going back.. Spike seems to have jumped on board long before this.. Back to the BuffyBot days, almost Hush when the idea is even suggested :P

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?

Probably when Buffy and Spike re-unite after she comes back to life. He is counting the days since he alst saw her.. so sweet!

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?

Yes.. The two never were able to ride out their relationship. They seemed some comfortable around each other in S7 when training the girls.. I wanted more!!

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?

I havent even seen a peek into S8.. but OF COURSE! :P

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?

Spike. Although Buffy probably deserves it. As much as she goes through and the weight that she constantly carries that no one seems to understand.. sometimes I dont think many viewers see that.. However... there are too many scenerios where Spike is so noble.. not only does he become a better man, a man he'd want to be.. he becomes a man most men would want to be. He acts so selfless (most times, hah) in the later seasons.. its so easy to forget the monster he is/was.

_Buffy_
02-11-10, 10:18 PM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?

I like Spike/Buffy relationship in the very begining. In S 2 I like the hate between them, all the fight. IMO Spike fell in love in her when he saw her in Bronze for the first time in " School hard " . He looks at her so hungrily. I think0, he likes her like a beautiful girl in this episode. In S4 and in S5 Spike and Buffy were almost friends. Buffy even doesn`t noticed he is in love with her until episode " Crush " . " It is one of my favorites episodes. It was full of fun. Alghtough we have all Spike`s girlfriend at one place and it was so weird and funny. I don`t undrestand why he chain her to confess his love, but still.:lol: . In S 6 their relationship were so so hot and so realistic - full of pleasure and pain...i.e. Dead things. In S 7 they were very closeness and such a good friends. But not only. I think there were a lot of moments shows they share love too.... Buffy : .." Because I`m not ready for you not to be here ..."...or .. Buffy : 'Why everybody in this house thinks I`m in love in Spike ? .."/because she thinks so /.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?

When I watch the show for the first time. It was episode " After life " on FOX channel and I was so interested when Buffy confess to Spike about Heaven. I was so curious to understand what will happen in the next episode between them and so, I start to watch the entire show - because of them.


3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?

I like very much all the Spuffy moments and serious ones and the funnies, too / Something blue ", "Crush " / I think my favorite is Spike and Buffy in "Chosen ". IMO it is the strongest moment in their relationship.

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?

Yes there is so many things which may to explore. In many Buffy`s actions there were a contradictions - in one moment she reject him and in the next moment she go to him. It may to explore much deeply the reason why she is so confused. And When she says to him " I love you " in "Chosen " it was really true. So what will happen next - there is so much to explore. There is so many ways about how is going their relationship.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?

Yes, of course. She told him she loves him. It may be one good start. And I think in ATS Spike doesn`t conected with her, because he was scared. Tipical for man which is in love. But it doesn`t mean that they can`t be together.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?

I like them both. In begining I like Spike more , but when I start to watch entire show, Buffy becomes my most favorite character.
Spoiler:
7) Do you like their reunion in the comics? If yes/no why?
Yes, for now. Depends what will happen later. For now she dreams of him. Does she `ll tells him she dreams of him and not of Angel / like Spike thinks/. I hope so ! :heart:

Thank you Plamivasi for these wonderful questions. I completely agree with your conclusion that Spike and Buffy are truly one. :hug:

MikeB
15-12-10, 02:32 AM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why? Hottest couple in the Whedonverse and one of the hottest in film history. And by "hottest" I mean the sexual chemistry and such.

I would have liked it better had it been a nicer and more full relationship.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so? "School Hard" (2.03).

Sidenote: Drusilla seemed a little too eager and needy that Spike kill Buffy. She may have already known that Spike would fall for Buffy.

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment? In ways "Becoming Part II" (2.22): the way they are with each other after they make the deal. They know each other's nonverbal cues and body language. They worked well together. And Joyce would have assumed that Spike was Buffy's new boyfriend. A boyfriend Buffy brought home.

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why? Of course. Buffy could refer to him as her boyfriend. They could have a relationship beyond being lovers or Platonic loves.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future? Depends. Spike doesn't want Buffy still into Angel or anyone else. Spike still seems to want a literal eternal love. Buffy would be with Spike if he wants to be with her.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both? Buffy kept Spike alive when she had plenty of chances to kill him. She did nothing it seems after he betrayed them all to Adam and did nothing after Spike tried to kill her again in "Out of My Mind" (5.04) almost killing Riley in the process. Spike for his part gave up everything he was as a vampire to be with Buffy including Drusilla and his position of power in the demon underworld.

If we're talking about Season 6, Spike got a much better deal than in Season 5. He was with Buffy and having sex with her. In Season 5, she rejected him and he was risking his life for her with little hope of actually being able to with her.

Season 5: Courtly Lover who never is able to get the woman.
Season 6: Lover, best friend, confidant, mentor (he fills all the roles that the Scoobies and her current lover filled)

Sienna
20-12-10, 01:41 AM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?

My favourite pairing in the verse. Why? Because they had serious chemistry and because Spike was the only guy to seriously ruffle Buffy's feathers. And not always in a good way. They were just always incredibly fun to watch together. Their exchanges always left me wanting more.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?

I can't honestly remember, but when Season 6 rolled around, I became reengaged with the show after a couple of seasons of drifting away. Spike/ Buffy was the major reason why.

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?

The scene in Season 6 where they are on opposite sides of Spike's door, just feeling each other but still divided. Such a poignant symbol of their relationship to that point.


4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?

Hell yes. There's so many places their relationship could go, but only if Buffy gets over her Angel issues. She'd need to grow up and evolve to be capable of a real connection and relationship with Spike.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?

Not really, no. But I don't doubt that Joss will play with the idea anyway and torture us all in the process.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?

Both, but I'm mainly a Spike girl.

Jessica M.C.
27-12-10, 05:27 PM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?
I liked it for the fact that it made Buffy think about the fact that she is no longer Happy shinny Buffy all the time. And It made Spike think about being a Hero. Sure Both Spike and Buffy could see that it was wrong, the idea of them being lovers. Spike embraced it. Buffy couldn't handle the idea of her darker side. She wanted Spike to go away and take what she was feeling with him, but something pulled her towards him anyway(writers, maybe? No, writers are at the whim of the characters and their storys.) Both characters needed this relationship to grow, to learn, to become who they needed to be.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?
Uuummmm, I write Dawn/Spike stuff :) I'm mostly a Spawn, but if we are only talking relationships that happened on the show, than Spuffy is at the top of my list. I think I stared to like them after Spike was tortured by Glory and didn't give up Dawn. Buffy came in and thanked him and said what he did for her and Dawn was really, not the robot.

3) Do you have a favorite Spike/Buffy moment?
I like a lot of the Spuffy stuff! (even though I wished Dawn would get a shot at Spike in season 7, She really needed a relationship or maybe grow up a little.)Anyway... I think I have two favorite sweet Spuffy moments. The one where Buffy has Just come back to life, where he tells her


I do remember what I said. The promise. To protect her. (pause) If I had done that ... even if I didn't make it ... you wouldn't have had to jump. But I want you to know I did save you. Not when it counted, of course, but ... after that. Every night after that. I'd see it all again ... do something different. Faster or more clever, you know? Dozens of times, lots of different ways ... (softly) Every night I save you.
and the speech he gives her


When I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You are a hell of a woman. You're the One, Buffy.
although I really enjoy their banter in the rounds of Kick The Spike:lol:

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?
No, I think It ended perfectly. Spike got to be the Hero, save Buffy and Buffy knew exactly what Spike meant to her.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?
Yes, but only if they are both willing to see each other's flaws and accept them.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?
Hmmmmm, this one is hard to answer!! I think I sympathize with both at different times, but with Spike more often than Buffy.

TaraIvy
31-12-10, 12:46 AM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?

I loved it. I think it was the best relationship Buffy has. She could be with him in ways she couldn't be with Angel, like sexually, and she needed him in ways she couldn't use Riley, like backup.


2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?

From the day he came back from Dru leaving him.


3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?

the sex in "Smashed"



4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?

Yes, it is the Buffy relationship Buffy has. She needs it.


5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?

There should be.


6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?

Both. Spike is perfect for Buffy and she rejects him. Buffy wanted Spike to understand that she wasn't ready for what he wanted.

Enisy
19-01-11, 03:18 AM
Random observation: the fire escape scene next issue won't be the first Spike/Buffy - Tony/Maria parallel Joss has snuck in. Didn't he say something about their first (real) kiss being "very West Side Story"? I firmly believe Tony and Maria are more reminiscent of Angel and Buffy than they are of Spike and Buffy, so this is... quite quirky of him, actually. :lol:

TimeTravellingBunny
19-01-11, 03:24 AM
Random observation: the fire escape scene next issue won't be the first Spike/Buffy - Tony/Maria parallel Joss has snuck in. Didn't he say something about their first (real) kiss being "very West Side Story"? I firmly believe Tony and Maria are more reminiscent of Angel and Buffy than they are of Spike and Buffy, so this is... quite quirky of him, actually. :lol:
I didn't know he said that. Well, I can't remember West Side Story that well, but Angel and Buffy are definitely more like Romeo and Juliet, because Romeo and Juliet barely knew each other at all. :lol: I could never get into that play, not even as a teenager. I mean, they fall in love the moment they see each other, and are getting married and then dying for each other after they've known each other for a few days?! WTF?

And about the kiss in OMWF... Spike compared it to "Gone with the Wind", didn't he? ... Which, actually, is not a bad parallel at all...

Enisy
30-01-11, 05:51 PM
New quote from James (and Joss, sorta ;))!

When did you find out that you were going to be into Buffy?
James Marsters: Oh, okay, so I told Joss, if you wanna make me naked, just give me a few months' notice. He's just "Okay. Next season, you and Buffy are gonna start bumpin'." And I go, "Fabulous idea! I've been thinking the same thing, Joss! My character should fall in love with Buffy. But of course, Buffy never reciprocates... right?" And he goes "Weeeeeeeelllllll..." And at that point I was just completely confused. Because I thought... I hated the chip, right? I thought that was a weak choice. I thought it would be much more interesting to watch Spike try to be good to impress Buffy and fail, miserably, every time, in a comedic way. And you can play that out for eight years! He's in love with her, he's trying to be a good guy, and it's funny. But the whole thing is predicated on the idea that she never notices, at all. And I was confused that she would ever give me the time of day. I was like, "Joss, what? I don't deserve her! What, d'you think -- remember the whole thing about the theme, Joss?" So yeah. Just disbelief. You know Joss. And then I realized, you know, he wrote a musical, so he really is crazy. What does Joss do? Anything he wants! (New Orleans Wizard World Comic Con, 1-11)

Video footage here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQFyyLZPTz4). Thanks for the corrections, Emmie!

Emmie
30-01-11, 06:12 PM
Hee! Oh, James. Theme: you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :)

Listened to it! I think boinking is actually "bumping" (or really "bumpin'"). Then later, "So yeah. Just disbelief. You know Joss. And then I realized, you know, he wrote a musical so he really is crazy. What does Joss do? Anything he wants."

KingofCretins
30-01-11, 08:47 PM
:D :D :)

Reading or listening to interviews with James always makes me so glad he's just an actor, not a writer. Same thing with SMG.

People usually say this when Joss is going more high-concept, literary snobbish with the writing and an actor's idea is more... common, more bourgeois somehow. Oddly, here, I'd say it's the opposite -- the "... and she never reciprocates" is much more the subtitles required, black and white movie storyline where "weeeeeell...." is much more of the summer tentpole film direction for it to go.


Haha, I know, right? When he said this:



I was like, c'mon now? Eight years of the same old schtick? Seriously? :p

I like that he seemed to dislike vampire-chips for the same reason I dislike vampire-souls, because it's just a shortcut, it's much easier than trying to convince the audience that genuine personality change is happening.

Reddygirl
31-01-11, 12:09 PM
I truly hope Bangel is over.

As of right now, what's Spuffy's biggest disadvantage as a couple?

It's early in the morning and I can't think of one at the moment!

What's the best-written Spike/Buffy scene, dialogue-wise? Worst-written?

Man, there is so much to choose from. Everything in FFL; The "invite" scene in The Gift; Everything in Chosen. I think Wrecked has some of the worst dialogue.

Do you think Spike was bothered by the spacefrak on a personal level, like Buffy wants to believe? And if so -- more or less than he'd been by the kiss in Chosen?

Actually, probably less than the kiss in Chosen. He knows Buffy was being played by powerful forces.

Remmy
31-01-11, 02:33 PM
Where's evidence that Angel was a little more in her heart than Spike? The threesome panel and "Always Darkest" show them in equal roles. Jeanty being told to draw Angel slightly closer to Buffy might mean different things - who said it's about who she loved more? It may have meant that Angel was a lot more of a part of Buffy's life in S8 (which he was, even when she didn't know it) or that she would get 'closer' to him in S8, which she wouldn't with Spike, who was absent from her life, or it might mean that there was a greater wedge between them due to him not informing her of his resurrection etc. And Angel being closer to the "camera" is supposed to mean that she loves him more? If we're going to analyze Buffy's dreams and fantasies in detail, one could as well find evidence that it was the opposite.
The quote Enisy provided. But like you, i don't believe that to be evidence that Angel is nr1 in her heart. I don't think love can be measured like that. What i find more likely is that her feelings for Spike were somewhat muted because of the hurt she felt that he didn't contact her. She has so many fears concerning this. And unlike Angel who's being a good little boy. Where is he to her knowledge, right there in La waiting for her to be ready. Like any normal person, Buffy likes to have some measure of control in a relationship and with Angel she held all the power by him accepting her terms in Chosen.
Compared to Spike who didn't even call her and gave her no sign that she's still the love of his life. Silly things like that i think could very easily explain why Angel was currently a little more in her heart. It's all about perception.
I mean jeez, look at how annoyed/riled up Spike fans got in that we had to wait 3 years before we knew what the deal was with Spike. Try to imagen it from Buffy's perspective, she knows he's out there excisting without her.

Answering of questions:

As of right now, what's Spuffy's biggest disadvantage as a couple?
Not so much a disadvantage as it might endanger their relationship which is time. To have missed that oppertunity and not having taken it. If the relationship doesn't move forward then it could very well be that one will eventually move on. I ofcourse doubt that this will happen. The epic,grandness of spuffy is not something that Joss will let end in a whimper.
Other then that no, i think they got a good road ahead of them. And i can't see their enviroment or aquintences having any say in this. These are both adults that don't need other people dictating how they live their lives.

What's the best-written Spike/Buffy scene, dialogue-wise? Worst-written?
Pretty much everything, dialogue being so good is part of the reason why i like spuffy. Compared to bangel, they lost me long ago with crap like"When i'm with you i feel like dying" or some shit like that. There was nothing romantic about it, the only thing i wanted to happen there was a character(preferably Joyce) to appear and smack Buffy upside the head.

Do you think Spike was bothered by the spacefrak on a personal level, like Buffy wants to believe? And if so -- more or less than he'd been by the kiss in Chosen?It probably helped that he didn't see them having sex like Satsu did. As for the act itself, well many consider kissing to be a lot more intimate. And again Buffy was drunkely guided into having sex while the kiss in chosen was 100% her. So the kiss was probably worse but neither actions fill Spike's heart with warmth i'm guessing.

TimeTravellingBunny
31-01-11, 02:48 PM
The quote Enisy provided. But like you, i don't believe that to be evidence that Angel is nr1 in her heart. I don't think love can be measured like that. What i find more likely is that her feelings for Spike were somewhat muted because of the hurt she felt that he didn't contact her. She has so many fears concerning this. And unlike Angel who's being a good little boy. Where is he to her knowledge, right there in La waiting for her to be ready. Like any normal person, Buffy likes to have some measure of control in a relationship and with Angel she held all the power by him accepting her terms in Chosen.
Compared to Spike who didn't even call her and gave her no sign that she's still the love of his life. Silly things like that i think could very easily explain why Angel was currently a little more in her heart. It's all about perception.
I mean jeez, look at how annoyed/riled up Spike fans got in that we had to wait 3 years before we knew what the deal was with Spike. Try to imagen it from Buffy's perspective, she knows he's out there excisting without her.

Yes, I agree with this. That's the reason why Spike wasn't so "close" to her.
But I don't believe by any means that she "felt more" for Angel than for Spike.
If there's one thing I'm certain about it's that Spike is always making Buffy "feel" a lot. She was even admitting as much when she wasn't ready to see those feelings as "love".



Actually, probably less than the kiss in Chosen. He knows Buffy was being played by powerful forces.
He seems to think about it that way now. Maybe he's put things into perspective when things settled down. Six months ago, he seemed a lot more upset. ("You still reek of him", thinking that Buffy was daydreaming about Angel, etc.)


As for the act itself, well many consider kissing to be a lot more intimate.
I know that some people say that (particularly in cheesy movies like like "Pretty Woman"*), but I'm sorry I have to say I always found it completely ridiculous. My reaction is always: yeah, right. :lol: I mean, come on, do you find it more easy to kiss someone you barely know or to have sex with them? If that were the case, then people would be having sex on the first date but refusing to kiss until they get to know each other better. Actors would flat out refuse to do any kissing scenes but would be OK with doing hardcore sex. :roll: Kissing is a somewhat intimate thing, but sex in a whole another level. And besides, when people have sex, they usually start by kissing as a foreplay (Buffy and Angel also did in #33, BTW). There's a reason why sex is 'the next base'.

*I always thought this was utter Hollywood crap. I bet that any street walker would be more than glad if she could get more money by just smooching a guy. And come on. I'm sure that a pro can not just kiss, but pretend to be in love if the client asks, it's all roleplay for money. Lots of people even marry for money and they probably do well kissing and saying ILYs and a lots of other cheesy stuff they don't believe.

TimeTravellingBunny
31-01-11, 08:07 PM
Re: the best and worst written dialogue, overall. I think most of their dialogue was brilliant, I can't think of any really bad B/S dialogue. (I completely disagree about "Wrecked", I adore the B/S parts of the episode.)

I can only thing of one line that doesn't fit - "You're beneath me" in "Fool For Love" doesn't sound like Buffy, it's not Buffy's way of speaking and it's not something I'd expect her to say either, it just seems like the writers had her say that line in order to parallel Cecily's.

And if we're counting anything Spuffy-related rather than just actual B/S scenes, then I will of course list almost everything that Spike says in "The Girl In Question" is the worst, particularly when he seems to believe that all he and Buffy ever had was sleeping together a lot?!

Emmie
31-01-11, 08:22 PM
I think TGIQ is hilarious (http://pocochina.livejournal.com/149059.html) and the characterization fits. What I love most is that it wasn't Buffy anyways, so that's why the retcon makes perfect sense. It never was about Buffy, so removing Buffy doesn't hurt anything but in fact solidifies the awesome.

I've always thought any word that comes out of Angel and Spike's mouth then is suspect. "I signaled her with my eyes." Come on, now. They're trying to one-up each other. People say stupid things when they're trying to win an argument. You take your reasonable view and you make it extreme all in order to win. It's not really what you believe, but when you're trying to win, you turn the argument into a weapon. There's aspects of truth there, but it's devoid of all nuance.

As for Spike saying all they had was lots of sleeping together, I think he was using that as a way to dig at Angel (like people joking about him being a eunuch--note how Angel sleeps with Nina immediately after this episode), but it's also a sign of Spike's insecurity when it comes to Buffy (which has been growing by leaps and bounds the longer he stays around Angel). That said insecurity is what's making him run around Rome with Angel like silly gits.

Miss Kitty
01-02-11, 12:07 AM
Hey, I join the discussion :) For those who don't know me, Spuffy is my favorite ship (and my favorite subject of discussion :p ).


The quote Enisy provided. But like you, i don't believe that to be evidence that Angel is nr1 in her heart. I don't think love can be measured like that. What i find more likely is that her feelings for Spike were somewhat muted because of the hurt she felt that he didn't contact her. She has so many fears concerning this. And unlike Angel who's being a good little boy. Where is he to her knowledge, right there in La waiting for her to be ready. Like any normal person, Buffy likes to have some measure of control in a relationship and with Angel she held all the power by him accepting her terms in Chosen.
Compared to Spike who didn't even call her and gave her no sign that she's still the love of his life. Silly things like that i think could very easily explain why Angel was currently a little more in her heart. It's all about perception.
I mean jeez, look at how annoyed/riled up Spike fans got in that we had to wait 3 years before we knew what the deal was with Spike. Try to imagen it from Buffy's perspective, she knows he's out there excisting without her.

I agree with you. But personnaly, I always interpreted the threesome panel like another proof of the idealization factor. I mean, if you had the choice between the guy you imagine your relationship with like perfect and the guy which you have seen the worst as much as the best (which is more on a reality level), your tendencies will always be for the fantasy, but it doesn't make it more real. I mean, as long as you imagine and idealize someone or your relationship with this person, I think it's really easy to have some tendencies, but it's based on an erroneous appreciation. Not more, not less. I think it's a mistake to take it as a fact in this kind of emotionnal context.

And I think that it was what Joss meant (via Jeanty). Because in his interviews, Joss always had put Spike and Angel on the same level concerning their importance to Buffy.


"You don't want to use it up by having Spike standing around in the background of every frame. He means so much to Buffy, so did Angel, that you want to save them for the big hits." -- Joss Whedon


For the rest, I have the same opinion than TimeTravellingBunny concerning Buffy and her ways of loving Spike and Angel. I think she loves (loved) them in different ways (which is natural, she was older at the end of the show), but by season 7, Spike had her heart. I never believed in this legend : "Buffy loves Angel more", come on :p The main difference remains her *ways* of loving. Yes, she was more demonstrative at the beggining of the show, but she was also younger. I think that a lot of people make the amalgam between two kind of loves, which is a mistake in my opinion.

It's nothing big, but I talked a little about it in one of my post on LJ : Here (http://misskittydu34.livejournal.com/41884.html)

KingofCretins
01-02-11, 12:56 AM
So you know this, and you still think that guys who hire prostitutes only want a piece of meat or an item of walking, talking chattel? I mean, surely it seems that if all guys thought of prostitutes that way, there would be little interest in such a thing?

1) I sure do!
2) I'm pretty sure the interest comes from seeing it that way, not in spite of.

But, as Emmie said, tangent (although not Tangent, who actually makes me actively avoid that word in normal posts). Boiler Room is there for a reason.


Hey! The Spike insecurity deal in how he talks about Buffy and how he views his relationship as evidenced in TGIQ is totally relevant... kinda...

I actually try not to take much meaningful about their characters from that episode, because that whole episode was kinda crap to me. It's like the musical for Xander in a lot of ways.

Reddygirl
01-02-11, 02:01 AM
I see what you mean about TGIQ but like Emmie, I think it's comedy gold. When I first saw it I was nevered bothered of the thought of Buffy with the Immortal; I just assumed she had a good reason and now I just sit back and watch Spike and Angel be hilarious together. And "Signaled with my eyes" maybe the funniest line Angel ever uttered in either show!

_Buffy_
02-02-11, 11:02 AM
When Spike and Angel were in the Disco Club in Rome and start to fight with the man, because of the demons head..... I think it was obviously that Buffy wasn`t there. I don`t belive they are so stupid and can`t noticed. If there is so big fight in the bar, in 2 metres to Buffy ,and if she was there don`t you think she only stay and glare ? The slayer in her will notice the fight immediately and wil start to fight , too. But nothing like this had happened. There was only Spike and Angel fighting in the Bar / even fightin with each other :roll:/ So , I can`t belive that they will belive she was on the dancing in this Bar with the Immortal IT IS UNBELIVABLE. :D

Maggie
02-02-11, 11:45 PM
Hey! I'd ship Spike with anyone. (Well, anyone who isn't Drusilla or Spider or Illyria). Watch me do it if anyone shows up! I definitely have post-Spuffy cred! Bring on Vi! Bring on Leah! Bring on Faith!

As for the triangle. It seems to me that they can't possibly go back to the Bangel well ever again. But some folks here seem to think that Joss will do it. So here's the query. Who would root for it? Is there anyone left in the fandom (apart from diehard Bangels who would ship them no matter what) who thinks it would be good for Angel and Buffy to be together? How does that sell as an outcome anyone would be rooting for?

Granted, I've always been anti-Bangel. So maybe that skews my view. What do you all think? Anybody rooting for it? Cause if there's not -- there's no well for Joss to go to.

What he could do is the post-Bangel "triangle" where Buffy can't move on to Spike because she really can never separate the two vamps and now all the sick feeling she has about Angel spills on to Spike.

(And if she doesn't have a sick feeling about Angel then I have a sick feeling about rooting for her).

Reddygirl
03-02-11, 01:51 AM
I think the vast majority of fans don't ship in the way that we mean it here. The writers offer up an interesting couple, they will enjoy it. That couple breaks up, and another interesting couple comes along, they will enjoy it, too.

So, I agree on the whole the only fandom that wants to see Bangel are the hardcore B/Aers.

But, the concept of "one true love", "first love" "soul mates" blah blah blah seems irrestible to writers. I do think Joss thinks outside the box and if any writer would resist the cliche of Big Only One First True Love it's Joss, even though I know B/A Forever isn't something most fans have or want to see.

Honestly, I think there are more active B/Xers than B/Aers and that would make Bangel the third most beloved ship for Buffy.

Nikki
03-02-11, 05:04 PM
Ok this thread is now clear of Season 8/9 discussions. Please keep it that way.

There is a Spuffy discussions thread in the Comic Book section.

MikeB
03-02-11, 10:55 PM
Reddygirl


I think the vast majority of fans don't ship in the way that we mean it here. The writers offer up an interesting couple, they will enjoy it. That couple breaks up, and another interesting couple comes along, they will enjoy it, too. Most fans probably don’t analyze the relationships like people posting on Boards do, but the majority of fans definitely ‘ship. And it could be simply: “Angel’s hot.” “Spike’s hot.” “Buffy and Angle 4 eva” or whatever.


So, I agree on the whole the only fandom that wants to see Bangel are the hardcore B/Aers. It’s probably about all B/Aers. And, to be fair, most B/Sers still wanted Buffy and Spike together after the attempted rape.


Honestly, I think there are more active B/Xers than B/Aers and that would make Bangel the third most beloved ship for Buffy. Maybe on this Board, maybe for the Season 8 readers. But for the wider fanbase, this certainly isn’t true.

Moscow Watcher
05-02-11, 10:33 PM
A couple of links:

Sign-ups for round 12 of Seasonal Spuffy are here:
http://community.livejournal.com/seasonal_spuffy/441505.html

~~~~~~~~~~

My favorite ship: Spike and Buffy. Buffy and Spike. by blackfrancine
http://blackfrancine.livejournal.com/8667.html
Essay and picspam. Interesting musings on the ship - especially on the funny aspects of the crucial Spuffy scenes.

Reddygirl
06-02-11, 03:44 AM
OMG, Francine invaded my brain and sucked out my thoughts!

Seriously, I could never put my love for Buffy and Spike and Spuffy as eloquently as she did.

I had never shipped before Spuffy nor since. I cringe now to think how during season 2 I used to laugh at the desperate shippers (season 2 was definitely the most violent year when it came to the shipping wars!): B/Aers who hated B/X and vice versa. The B/Aers who "loved" Cordy and Xander. And of course the Willow/Xanders shippers who loathed Oz with a passion.

Little did I know that Karma was just around the corner, waiting to bite my butt for all the amusement I enjoyed at the expense of the shippers.

Nixennacht
09-02-11, 08:36 PM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?

I like it because it is a relationship based on mutual trust and acceptance. Between Buffy and Spike there was never a need for roses, they were honest to each other, to the point of pain sometimes. It's one of the very few relationships where the participants function not only on a romantic level, but also as friends and on a physical level. They even get each other's darker sides.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?

Season 5, possibly S4, in retrospective probably in the finale of S2.

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?

Backporch Spuffy in "fool for love" maybe and the scene in the end of "Intervention".

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?

Yes, definitely. Spike has a soul now, Buffy doesn't know he's alive (or does she?), we don't know if she really meant what she said in Chosen or not, there are endless possibilities.

Unless you mean to include the comic versions than I can't say I'm interested in reading any more from those two.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?

Yes, after the show definitely.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?

Both of them. Though I tend to identify more strongly with Spike than with Buffy.

Moscow Watcher
01-04-11, 12:35 PM
The 12-th round of Seasonal Spuffy has started. Watch this place (http://community.livejournal.com/seasonal_spuffy/) for new fics, vids, manips, avis - everything Spuffy!

http://pics.livejournal.com/ladyofthelog/pic/0012b40x

TimeTravellingBunny
02-05-11, 01:52 AM
I thought shipper threads were places where anti-shippers were not supposed to come only to post 100% negative things about it...

Heroine X
02-05-11, 02:14 AM
I thought shipper threads were places where anti-shippers were not supposed to come only to post 100% negative things about it...

I forgot. I deleted my post. Spuffy did have it's moments in my eyes, but not as die hard as what others would feel.

Moscow Watcher
19-06-11, 06:02 PM
Found an interesting quote, decided to share:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Joss_Whedon.html?id=IPNSR9PQ76gC

Joss Whedon: Conversations by David Lavery, Cynthia Burkhead

From the interview with David Bianculli, May, 9 2000.


Joss: "It's always fun to shoot the scenes with James. Sarah loves working with him, because he has a great rapport with everyone and people don't get many scenes with him -- Spike -- so they always relish them, because he always brings a very different perspective.

Edited: I just watched a great Spuffy vid:

"Not Strong Enough" by SerpentineMalfoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L582EzNOePI&feature=youtu.be

Music by Apocalyptica

I'm not strong enough to stay away
Can't run from you
I'd just run back to you
Like a moth I'm drawn into your flame
You say my name but it's not the same

(Thanks to Quietrose for the tip)

sueworld
19-06-11, 07:25 PM
Nice one, although I have to say I'm yet to see anything nasty written about working with wee Jimmy which speaks volumes about him as a person imo.

Nice to hear that SMG liked working with him too. :)


people don't get many scenes with him

So It wasn't quite the 'Spike show' after all. *g*

TimeTravellingBunny
19-06-11, 08:28 PM
So It wasn't quite the 'Spike show' after all. *g*
Well it certainly wasn't before season 5, when this interview was given. ;)

sueworld
19-06-11, 09:16 PM
Don't belive it was after, especially If you take into account how many lines the Spike had in the show, but then I suppose that I am biased seeing as I'm one of those who actually like the character. :lol:

TimeTravellingBunny
19-06-11, 09:43 PM
Don't belive it was after, especially If you take into account how many lines the Spike had in the show, but then I suppose that I am biased seeing as I'm one of those who actually like the character. :lol:
I don't think it was the "Spike show" either - but then I can't have enough of Spike ;) so maybe I'm wrong...

Well, he did have the most development, and arguably the best storyarc in seasons 5-7, so if that means it was a "Spike show"... what's bad about that? I for sure don't think that the other characters were sidelined, and the complaints usually come from people who hate Spike.

BTW, coalitiongirl (http://coalitiongirl.livejournal.com/)'s wonderful season 9 fic "Embers" has reached chapter 13. I've been really enjoying it so far, and wouldn't mind if season 9 went something along these lines.

Sosa lola
20-06-11, 11:08 AM
I think everybody loves working with James. He seems like a really nice guy and so professional. Recently in the Phoenix Comic Con, Nicholas Brendon was asked, which actor/actress he liked working with on Buffy. This is what he says exactly, except I had to omit the "You know"s :D

"Sarah and I worked well together. I love working with James, 'cause he's just so into the moment, the art, and I'm so not :lol: So, when we had the whole thing where he was locked up in my basement, I thought those scenes were really fun."

They really were, Nick, they really were. :heart:


I'm planning to read Embers when it's done. I love Coalitiongirl's writing, she's such an amazing writer and gets the characters.

Moscow Watcher
26-06-11, 04:03 PM
Thank you for that quote, Sosa Lola! I think the chemistry between Nick and James is especially palpable because, their friendship seeps through the antagonism they usually play.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From recent Jane Espenson tweets :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Misc2/Espenson_Spuffy.png

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ahnd - a funny item: Kawaii Buffy & Spike earrings
http://www.etsy.com/listing/67274695/kawaii-buffy-spike-earrings?ref=pr_shop

Reddygirl
26-06-11, 04:34 PM
Moscow, thanks for the Jane E tweet and the link to the Etsy site.

spuffy forever.
28-06-11, 05:16 PM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?
I just simply adore it. They are so great with eachother, and Spike really love her.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?
Well, I kinda started watching Buffy because of them. I saw "Once more with feeling" and totaly fell in love with them. So i started watching, and in s7, when Spike got his soul back for her, I just realized how much he really loved her.

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?
In s7, when he convince her to go fight Caleb, and they spend the night together, without really doing anything.

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why? Yeah, I really think they could have a shot at a real relationship if Spike hadn't died in the last episode.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?
Deffinetly.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?
Spike, I can't really explain it, it's just how i feel.

Moscow Watcher
28-06-11, 06:24 PM
Welcome to the thread, spuffy forever. I've been in Norway once, in 2003 - it's a beautiful country with beautiful nature.

I'm glad you're optimistic about Buffy and Spike's future.


I saw "Once more with feeling" and totaly fell in love with them. So i started watching, and in s7, when Spike got his soul back for her, I just realized how much he really loved her.

Have you seen earlier seasons? Buffy and Spike's journey is equally interesting in earlier (2-4) and later (5-7) seasons.

If you're interested in current Spuffy situation, join us in comics section.

spuffy forever.
28-06-11, 09:45 PM
Yeah, I've seen the etire show, and i agree. But "once more with feeling" was kinda were it all started for me...

Reddygirl
28-06-11, 11:44 PM
Welcome to the board, spuffy forever.

Tennyoelf
29-06-11, 02:08 AM
(Only going to answer this per seasons 1-7, no answers include taking the comics into consideration.)

1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?

I think it's one of the most amazing and epic love stories in fiction. They have gone from "I hate you" to "I love you" by the end of the show, they have gone from wanting the other dead to wanting to be in each other lives.

They are, on the surface, two are very different people but oddly enough deep inside they are very similar. They can banter and are at ease with each other and they fit together, where Buffy can be the alpha and Spike can be the follower (basically a gender role reversal, Buffy wears the pants in the relationship and Spike is A-OK with that).

I like them very much because evil (Spike was evil while soulless, the the degrees of evil changed from seriously evil to not so much evil, but evil from seasons 5-6) was able to love a woman, change for her and from the ruins of their very unhealthy relationship a man with a wonderful soul was born. I rewatched the series twice now and have rewatched only the spuffy/Spike scenes a few more times and each time I get a new perspective on the ship. I see Spike's story unfold, and can see his change and I can see Buffy's heart opening up to him and it feels so real and alive.

He really loved her and she really did too, though she only realized it at the very end. It's like a dark and evil place was able to grow a glowing flower and it's so full of poetry that it leaves me breathless. Really, epic and fun and interesting are only some of the awesome words I would use to describe Spuffy and why I like (love) it.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?

Oddly enough, why I began watching Buffy was because I was watching Bones and my husband told me Booth was famous for playing Angel (at that point I've never seen Buffy or Angel). And I was surprised really. I was/am a big Dragon Ball fan and knew that the actor for Spike played Piccolo in the movie (I heard about it a lot on a DB forum I used to haunt). So I was intrigued by both Booth as Angel and Piccolo who used to play the famous Spike (whom my husband loves and told me so during season 2, which I had no clue about at the time). So I was excited to see what the hype was all about with Spike and I wanted to see Booth as Angel. Thus I began watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I started watching the show and of course was all into Bangel at first. But I was bouncing on my toes for Spike, and I saw him and he was cool. And then Spike became a regular, Angel lost my appeal (but I still liked Bangel during season 4, my first time around that is) and I wanted to see how Spike would get together with Buffy as I heard he would. And then season 5 happened, and then season 6 and I was blown away by season 7 spuffy. Their journey was just so amazing I could never look at another BtVS relationship the same again. I think around season 5 I started to love Spuffy, but it was gradual, just like the relationship itself.

3) Do you have a favorite Spike/Buffy moment?

Church Scene from Beneath You, Intervention ending (that kiss), Spike crying at the end of season 5, Fool for Love comfort scene, Life Serial, Scene from Touched.

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?

Heck yeah, season 7 ended just when they were starting to get somewhere. They never had a chance to really be together, and with Spike's resurrection in Angel and his no calling her they have a lot of issues to discuss and move past.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?

Oh, yes yes yes. I think they'll dance forever and maybe one day they might get together, but once they do get together (and I mean really together) I don't think anything will be able to tear them apart (except themselves).

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?

Both, maybe a bit more on Spike's side, but I see myself through both their shoes.

Moscow Watcher
15-07-11, 08:42 AM
Hey, Tennyoelf,

Your story about discovering Spuffy is adorable. It's so great that people continue to discover BtVS and join the fandom!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sideshow Collectibles Spike Polystone Statue Comic Con Showcase vid by FanaCollec has a funny, if unintentional shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7go2oD4GYpM&feature=player_embedded

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Misc2/Spuffyfigures.jpg

Spike: "Patrol, Slayer?"

Buffy (thinks):"Yes, my bed needs a long and thorough patrol..."

:)

ubi4soft
15-07-11, 09:24 AM
I love Spike's pose! Similar to Fray's and Buffy's in #40.

I'm curious about the process of selecting the pose for each character.

TimeTravellingBunny
24-08-11, 11:08 PM
I recommend this brilliant shortish Wishverse fanfic. Really, really dark and sad - how else could a fic about Wishverse Buffy be - with a Spuffy dynamic even darker and more twisted than it ever got on the show. http://sb-fag-ends.livejournal.com/73098.html

Osiris1803
25-08-11, 12:50 PM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?
I absolutely love it. I've always loved their banter and the more physical side to their relationship. It makes riverting viewing.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?
Well it certainly wasn't the first time around that I watched Buffy, when I was a teenager at the time it was initially aired, I lost interest when Dawn was introduced. I just didn't get it and I didn't want to. I carried on watching the show regardless, but found anything that came after annoying. I don't think it was until my third or fourth viewing that I found myself enjoying the Spuffy dynamic more and more.

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?
That infamous speech during touched, it gets me every time.

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?
Yeah I think they could have definitely got together, properly if Spike hadnt have died.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?
Not as much as there were.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?
Spike, but I think that's mainly because I seem to connect more with his character.

Miss Kitty
25-08-11, 04:08 PM
A new Spuffy video made by Noulouk, I recommend it :) :

Spuffy - Someone like you (Adele) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wwyFSqug64&feature=player_detailpage

***

1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?
I absolutely love them ♥ They're my OTP since ten years, and my passion only grew from the moment I began to ship them. In despite of the fact they're fictional, they brought me some comfort I needed at some bad periods of my life, thanks to the way they supported each other and have been there for each other. I think that's why they have so much importance to me. What they shared was unique. I have so much love for their journey, the way their relationship was played by Sarah & James, the chemistry, and the way the writers wrote the development of their story.

They represent all what true love means to me. Being at your truest with the person you love, and sharing with him/her things you wouldn't share with anybody. Like a secret garden. Plus the passion, the trust and the faith in each other's strenght. I really love the impact they had in each other's lives, they wouldn't have been the same persons at the end of the show if they hadn't met each other, and brought to each other things the way they did. I have a profound admiration for their relationship, and the way they surpassed their mistakes, and accepted that they weren't perfect.

What I love about them is simply the fact that I find their story believable, in despite of the surnatural context. At an emotional level, it felt true to me. They're two persons who did mistakes, but have became really important in each other's life/evolution, and they're definitely in each other's heart, because of that history between them, and nothing would/could change that.


2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?
I remember the exact moment I became a shipper, and it's really particular, because it's like falling in love with a fictional relationship. I was a fan of the Buffy and Spike dynamic before that, but the moment I began to ship them was in Though Love (5x19). In that episode, they have just one scene (30 seconds ? One minute ?) but that moment changed totally my way of liking them.

"I'd do it. (looks down at the ground) Right person. Person I loved. (looks at Buffy) I'd do it."


3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?
I can't choose only one moment, because I have too many favorites, but right now, I would say the scene at the beggining of First date (7x14), when they're explaining to Giles what they did to Spike's chip. The way they're acting and looking at each other, the faith and trust Buffy have in Spike, the fact that they're side by side in front of Giles, suiting each other's sentences, it's just so cute.


4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?
YES. Totally. I think their dynamic has so much potential for being explored in so many differents places and ways. You know, in a way or another, I think they always come back to each other, whatever the way they want to be there for each other. And their relationship is in a perpetual move, the only thing which doesn't change is the fact that they mean a lot to each other and are a consequent part of each other's lives.


5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?
Yes. Their history together and the grow of their characters since they first met are too much related for them not being a part of each other's lives while they could be once they have reunited. And since I think that they're still in love with each other in the comics, romance is still totally a part of the picture concerning their relationship, I think they have their chance. Now, it's more all about their respectives issues and the context they will have to face. Buffy and Spike have this extraordinary capacity to be close, having a fantastic way of supporting and understanding each other, but they're strangely not in the same symbiosis when it comes to their feelings for each other, because of their insecurities most of the time. And that's a part of why we love them after all !



6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?
Both.

Iwantthefireback
14-10-11, 02:40 AM
1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?

I LOVE Spuffy. I love the way Spike actually cares about her, and it really shows in "Touched" in season 7. I hate the way Buffy treats him.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?

When Spike showed up in season 2. I thought they would be hot together.

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?


Season 7, "Touched". Spike told Buffy he had the best night of his life, and all he did was hold her and watch her sleep. *girly sigh*

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?

I think Buffy needs to get over herself and admit (to herself) that she loves him.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?

Yes.

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?

I sympathize with Spike because Buffy treats him like dirt most of the time.

Moscow Watcher
14-10-11, 03:37 PM
Hey, Iwantthefireback - welcome to the thread and to the forum! :hug:*waves*

I disagree that Buffy treats Spike like dirt "most of the time". There are many scenes in which he actually deserves it. But it's okay to disagree.

I agree that the scene in "Touched" is awesome. It's one of my favorite scenes in the show.

When did you start to watch BtVS? During its initial TV run? Later?

ubi4soft
08-12-11, 06:11 AM
Lots of Spuffy love in this essay

The Five Things I’ve Learned About Writing Romance from TV (http://www.jennycrusie.com/for-writers/essays/the-five-things-ive-learned-about-writing-romance-from-tv/) - Jenny Crusie


But even more important is the other half of the key to this dynamic: the opposite character traits give the romance crackle, but they’re only skin deep. When you reach the bones of the characters, the stuff that keeps them upright and moving through the story, you find that the lovers are actually two of a kind. Spike is not Buffy’s opposite but her doppelganger: a super-hero who’s not only a little in love with death but also a lot in love with the person who is most likely to give it to him or her. In a less dramatic pairing, Luke and Lorelei are both iconoclasts, brutally independent and blatantly determined to live life in their own ways. No wonder Riley and Max couldn’t connect: they were the real outsiders in the mix.

Lesson 1: Your lovers spark because they’re opposites on the surface, but they love because they’re twin souls at heart. Peel back the surface and find where they connect, and your reader will believe your romance really is forever.

Tennyoelf
08-12-11, 07:46 AM
Lots of Spuffy love in this essay

The Five Things I’ve Learned About Writing Romance from TV (http://www.jennycrusie.com/for-writers/essays/the-five-things-ive-learned-about-writing-romance-from-tv/) - Jenny Crusie


But even more important is the other half of the key to this dynamic: the opposite character traits give the romance crackle, but they’re only skin deep. When you reach the bones of the characters, the stuff that keeps them upright and moving through the story, you find that the lovers are actually two of a kind. Spike is not Buffy’s opposite but her doppelganger: a super-hero who’s not only a little in love with death but also a lot in love with the person who is most likely to give it to him or her. In a less dramatic pairing, Luke and Lorelei are both iconoclasts, brutally independent and blatantly determined to live life in their own ways. No wonder Riley and Max couldn’t connect: they were the real outsiders in the mix.

Lesson 1: Your lovers spark because they’re opposites on the surface, but they love because they’re twin souls at heart. Peel back the surface and find where they connect, and your reader will believe your romance really is forever.

That's actually very close to how I view Spike and Buffy. I see them more similar than not. It's like on the surface they are opposites, but really deep down they both are characters full of love and feelings, and goodness, that they really just mirror each other. They work, fitting together like puzzle pieces. One of the many reasons I love Spuffy.

Drusilla
08-12-11, 11:16 AM
That's actually very close to how I view Spike and Buffy. I see them more similar than not. It's like on the surface they are opposites, but really deep down they both are characters full of love and feelings, and goodness, that they really just mirror each other. They work, fitting together like puzzle pieces. One of the many reasons I love Spuffy.

I like Spuffy for all their silly fights! For example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_ft38fDygY. And who couldn`t love classic moments like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9Zsg-BAnuI&feature=related that and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxcqJ4FUsK0&feature=related?

Moscow Watcher
08-12-11, 04:00 PM
Welcome to the forum and to the thread, Drusilla!:heart: Thank you for the links - I adore these scenes, especially "... you have stupid hair" :))

To me, Spuffy is especially interesting because of its diversity. They can be funny, they can be tragic, they can fight, cuddle, snark, kiss. Their denial throughout the show is as fascinating as their acceptance in "Chosen". They never become stale. Their journey is the best story on television.

Drusilla
09-12-11, 01:43 AM
Welcome to the forum and to the thread, Drusilla!:heart: Thank you for the links - I adore these scenes, especially "... you have stupid hair" :))

Thanks for the welcome! And I adore all those scenes myself. :D


To me, Spuffy is especially interesting because of its diversity. They can be funny, they can be tragic, they can fight, cuddle, snark, kiss. Their denial throughout the show is as fascinating as their acceptance in "Chosen". They never become stale. Their journey is the best story on television.

I remember reading something somewhere (closet fan for quite some time) about how characters who are different on the surface but soul siblings on the inside make amazing pairings. It was in this very thread, I believe...

sweetjohnny
10-12-11, 09:56 PM
thanks for those links Dru. Classic spuffy. 'stupid hair' always made me laugh out loud.
and has just done so again :D :D

iWebbs
11-12-11, 12:00 AM
Dru those links are awesome! Reminding me of all the classic moments. Spuffy was always my favourite. I don't know what it is about them, I just love their chemistry, their constant banter etc. They have such funny, emotional and powerful scenes together. I love them! My favourite out of those links was the "5 words or less" Just love Spike's expression.

Since this is the first time i'm posting in this thread, I'm going to answer the questions too!

1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?
I pretty much said it above, I just love their chemistry. They bounce off each other. They've made me expierience every emotion watching them two! I just love the way he acts with her as well, the way he evolved whilst loving her. The way she treated him wasn't always good but it was new for her and I'm glad she followed her feelings. And I loved how the characters grew as a couple.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?
I used to watch the show as it was aired, but I think I originally started shipping them when season 4 was aired. Just because of their constant funny scenes together, and as the scenes went on the more and more I became obsessed with them together.

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?
Theres way too many to chose from! In all honesty, there is so many moments of theirs tha I could pick but I'm not going to lie to you. I love "Smashed" That whole scene in that episode, the way they fight, relieve the anger and then the power of the lust they have for eachother just takes over. Love it!

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?
I watch Buffy over and over, and all I can see is the development of their relationship. I think there is tonnes more to explore from them. I want more Spuffy in my life! haha

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?
100%. Even if it's in fan fiction and fan art and comics. Spuffy will live on!

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?
I dont know if I would use the term sympathize but I definitely relate more to Buffy. What girl doesn't go through the stage of loving someone no one else thinks is right for you. The one that everyone despises of. The one that you are almost too worried to tell anyone about. I guess I sympathize with her because of Spike's reputation. But then I sympathize with Spike because he's been through so much in his life and I think that Buffy was the best thing that ever happened to him, and she put him on the road to redemption. The redemption he deserved. He developed as a character when he met Buffy and I absolutely think that it was fate that they were together and I still do!! :)

sueworld
04-01-12, 05:27 PM
I was watching Hells Bells today and one thing always bothered me, as we know Whedon came in and rewrote the conversation that Buffy had with Spike in this. The tone of the original being far more aggressive and argumentative then what they ended up going with, where both parties seem at least be trying to at like adults with each other.

Now considering where the story line was obviously heading why do this? Did they want to double blind us by bring the whole AR thing is seemingly out of the blue or what? As you can tell that scenes always bothered me really.

Moscow Watcher
04-01-12, 06:59 PM
To me, the scene is very important because it indicates that

1) both of them don't *really* want to hurt each other - but can't find a way to be together in a non-confrontational way.

2) Buffy is the dog in the manger. As soon as she can't have Spike, her attitude changes completely.

3) Spike always follows Buffy's lead. As long as she plays nice - he plays nice too. As long as she wants it rough, he'll be rough. The problem is, sometimes Buffy sends mixed signals.

sueworld
04-01-12, 07:01 PM
But why write it that way considering what came later between them. It made the AR appear to be even more OOC to me, but maybe thats what Whedon wanted?

TimeTravellingBunny
04-01-12, 07:05 PM
But why write it that way considering what came later between them. It made the AR appear to be even more OOC to me, but maybe thats what Whedon wanted?
I didn't think it was OOC and I don't see why them having one nice moment in Hell's Bells changes that, considering how wrong things go in Normal Again/Entropy/Seeing Red.

sueworld
04-01-12, 07:31 PM
Well to me it seemed like they'd started to make the first moves towards acceptance, but obviously Whedons went for the old 'switch-a-roo' trick instead.

Stoney
04-01-12, 08:23 PM
I don't think it was that at all. Spike is, to me, a special vamp in his ability to love the Slayer whilst soulless. He says to Buffy that one thing he doesn't do is hurt her and he really means it. He loves her and wants to be with her, be what she wants and mourns the end of the destructive relationship that they had and the loss of the friendship that they had started to develop before sexual tension won over. But at the end of the day the guy is a demon and he is hurt and confused and when his emotions and heart are on the line in Entropy this goes out of control with the AR when the demon rules his actions. His horror then sends him off for his soul. Spike's utter belief that he could love her and be what she could want/need without his soul is his undoing in that he forgot, for a moment, that he was a demon and it took control of him. In Hell's Bells we see Spike the man trying to be around Buffy, missing her and uncertain what to do. We see Buffy watching Xander/Anya and wishing to see their happy ending feeling tender towards Spike as she acknowledges how he may be feeling and puts out a tender response to him as she is now in the security of no longer being in the relationship, at that point she is closer to where she was with Spike when she was confiding in him about heaven. Both of them, to me, are trying to skirt around an unobtainable relationship, one that does require souls all round.

ubi4soft
31-01-12, 05:58 AM
I like the combination of graphics and written word that goes on tumblr

shegiles (http://shegiles.tumblr.com/post/16766874173/btvs-movie-posters-episode-something-blue) give us posters

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lym44pQKzo1qbxb10o1_500.png

and glitteringworlds (http://glitteringworlds.tumblr.com/post/16803353570/no-you-dont-but-thanks-for-saying-lies-and-deception) a new interpretation of Chosen ILYNYDBTFSY



NO YOU DON’T BUT THANKS FOR SAYING: LIES AND DECEPTION IN THE SERIES FINALE

The scene where Buffy finally confesses her love for Spike is one of the most beautiful in the entire episode, and him denying that she feels that love, upon first viewing, one of most heart breaking. However, I think that scene goes a lot deeper than what is immediately obvious.

I’d like to thank Andrew for this belief. Andrew the storyteller. At the end of the episode, Andrew tells Xander that Anya died saving his life. Which isn’t an outright lie, they were both fighting for survival, but is certainly seen through his vision of what makes the story. Anya is killed from behind, sliced down the middle and tossed aside as unimportant. She didn’t die a coward’s death, but she didn’t die the hero that Andrew chose to make her out as, doing, as Xander said, “the brave thing.”

Because she did do the brave thing. The ending isn’t what’s important here, it’s the content of her journey. How Anya went from a demon to a true human. To some who really loved humans, who believed in them. No, her death wasn’t as spectacular as Spike’s, but to focus simply on that death does an injustice to her life. I think Andrew knew that, and I think he realized that Anya deserved to be remembered in the most heroic of terms, and that Xander deserved a picture of her, in those final moment, that represented the side of her Andrew had seen at the hospital.

I bring this example up because I think that it is important to note what Spike and Buffy’s relationship was during the entirety of Season 7, instead of just focusing on how it ended. Out of everyone, Spike should know that she loves him. He’s always been good at seeing through the barriers that people put up to try and disguise themselves. So why would he claim that she didn’t love him when it’s painfully clear, looking at episodes such as “Touched,” that she did?

Because he knew it was coming. Cassie tells him that “She’ll tell you. Someday,” and I think from there on out Spike has that thought in the back of his mind. Now along with this thought is the knowledge that he may not survive the final fight. He knows the Medallion is probably dangerous and possibly deadly, and the moment it starts to activate, I think he knows that he’s going to die. By the time she comes to it, he’s ready to go. Just one more thing he’s waiting to hear before the end.

That she loves him.

That’s all he needs. That, and the promise that Buffy will have a future, even if he does not. So he makes to sacrifices that day. One saves her life. The other is an attempt to save her heart.

If anyone knows how love can sting, it’s Spike. He’s felt the hurt of it all his life. And he also knows, better than most of the gang, the weight of living, especially on Buffy. When he looks at her, when he speaks to her, what he is really telling her to do is to live.

To go on living.

So one of them is living.

He lies to her. He paints the picture that he believes will best protect her, because what else can he do for the woman he loves, in those final moments? He wants to give her the life she deserves. It’s all he’s ever wanted.

Reddygirl
02-02-12, 03:20 AM
That interpretation is just lovely.

The last scene between Buffy and Spike is so complex, so simple, so mysterious, so obvious, so sad, so happy, so very very beautiful.

I have no idea what Joss wanted to accomplish when he wrote this scene but the fact that it moves so many people and often in completely different ways must make him happy.

Tallgent
09-02-12, 01:34 PM
So I wanted to post my thoughts on the beautiful scene at the end of the latest issue and was hoping that was okay or if it's too soon. Ordinarily, I'd just post it as part of my review, but considering the sensitive subject matter I feel it best to post it here.

Tallgent

Tallgent
10-02-12, 01:13 AM
Okay, so here are my Spuffy thoughts for Issue #6.

We finally get something about Spike's true feelings for Buffy and in typical Spike fashion he just completely underplays it. It reminded me of Fool For Love. He doesn't open up to truly revelatory stuff and here he still doesn't. Saying that his relationship ended with Smashed is incredibly telling. For one, he puts on that playa facade that he pretended to be in L.A. when he first teamed with Angel. It's a different dynamic than what he had with Riley, but Dowling's still not Betta George. He's still kind of an unknown at this point. But he likes the guy, which is awesome to me. He really has Buffy's best interests at heart. As long as she's happy, he's happy. As long as she no longer has to dwell in the dark he can stay there and protect her from afar.

But Dowling challenges him, and that was awesome as well. He hinted that he was interested in Buffy, but he can sense the history that he and Buffy have. It reminded me of this episode of Moonlighting where David explains his frustration about Maddie with this stranger in the...jail cell, I think. Naturally, it takes a stranger to get David to realize what he already knows deep down inside. So what does he do then? "Tell her," the stranger says.

So Spike girds himself up and approaches Buffy. So symbolic really. Water. Images of renewal and birth. It seems almost perverse when one considers her decision. Also in a less Joseph Campbell way, it's a pool. Buffy is waving her feet in the pool. She's not ready to take the plunge with Spike. But her feet are in. Similarly, Spike crouches beside her wanting to join her.

But, anyway, this isn't about romance. This is about a painful decision and an acknowledgment that she knows the one she can count on to support her is right beside her. Like always.

Then it goes even deeper and here's where my interpretation is probably a little off from the others. LIke the other two instances, this one took me back to the recently defunct Chuck (RIP). As the third season opened, Sarah Walker had already seen the death of her first love, Bryce Larkin. Her emotions exploded out of her in that moment. Defiance. Anger. Sadness.

So she implores Chuck to run away from the spy life and start a real life with her.

I loved this admission on Buffy's part. That even if Spike isn't the father of her child, just as Giles wasn't literally a father to her, she saw that he was capable of being one. He saw how he protected Dawn, loved her, loved both of them. She wanted him to help raise her child. To create a true family. Not a surrogate one. A natural one. One where both of them could shower her precious gift with the love that they only sporadically showed to each other. Through this admission, though, to me it was made clear that even if it's not demonstrative it's still there. Still burning. And Buffy was thinking of that loving flame nuturing her child.

That's why I think Spike is crying. I don't think it's his baby. And, yeah, this may seem pretty hypocritical with my whole overeager interest in Angel as Twilight, but, screw it, yeah it would piss me off if Spike were the father. That would tear Spuffy assunder as it never had before.

But going back to more bittersweet thoughts, I think his emotions were shock about the pregnancy but also about the depth of her feelings for him. Of her regard and respect of him. I think the real tragedy in a way is that Spike will never get to show her just how much her faith in him will be justified. I mean, it's one thing to be a hero and saving the world. It's another thing to be a father.

For someone who only believed that the love of his life only wanted him for the dark times, I think her revelation opened his eyes that she sees them as a path into the light. The light of compassion, understanding, support. And love.

Tallgent

Stoney
12-02-12, 01:33 PM
For someone who only believed that the love of his life only wanted him for the dark times, I think her revelation opened his eyes that she sees them as a path into the light. The light of compassion, understanding, support. And love.

Tallgent

I love this observation and feeds why they were replanting the whole 'dark side' perception from Spike's pov. Though we did see Buffy reiterate this during her post-frak fantasy about Spike it would be great to see some evolvement from Buffy' pov towards Spike - that this may not be where he is contained for her anymore - which would be some serious progress.

I don't know if I am just being daft but I really didn't get what Spike was saying with the 'Smahed' reference. I get that he is not getting into the depth of his feelings for Buffy with Dowling and is only making surface references but I didn't get the writing of this line at all.

Tallgent
16-02-12, 03:13 AM
Stoney wrote:


I don't know if I am just being daft but I really didn't get what Spike was saying with the 'Smahed' reference. I get that he is not getting into the depth of his feelings for Buffy with Dowling and is only making surface references but I didn't get the writing of this line at all.

I think Spike is trying to save his pride. Obviously, the relationship was more vulnerable and devastating for him, but he's not gonna share that. Too private. Too....raw. Also, he's not proud of how it all went down. Buffy and him are in a great spot now, I think he knows that. But thanks to their volatile past and how they almost destroyed each other, he knows just how tenuous that great spot is now.

Tallgent

Reddygirl
16-02-12, 03:17 AM
I still haven't received my copy, hopefully tomorrow, but from the dialogue I've read online Tall's analysis makes sense.

dina
16-02-12, 09:05 AM
Stoney wrote:



I think Spike is trying to save his pride. Obviously, the relationship was more vulnerable and devastating for him, but he's not gonna share that. Too private. Too....raw. Also, he's not proud of how it all went down. Buffy and him are in a great spot now, I think he knows that. But thanks to their volatile past and how they almost destroyed each other, he knows just how tenuous that great spot is now.

Tallgent
Spike was doing the same thing in S6 after Smashed. "Things have changed now, I know where you live slayer, I've tasted it". He's doing the same thing now, he tries to convince himself that boinking Buffy was all he ever wanted and right now he doesn't have romantic feelings about her anymore.

Stoney
16-02-12, 11:38 AM
Spike was doing the same thing in S6 after Smashed. "Things have changed now, I know where you live slayer, I've tasted it". He's doing the same thing now, he tries to convince himself that boinking Buffy was all he ever wanted and right now he doesn't have romantic feelings about her anymore.

I don't think that Spike ever believed that, he spoke to Riley about wanting 'all of her' rather than it just being about sex and everything he said to Buffy in S7 particularly in the latter episodes. Spike didn't expect that it was going to be anything from Buffy's pov beyond the destructive sex though and then he panicked away when she turned to him positively (his 'were you there with me', her 'ILY'). Spike has been very obstructive to it being anything of any depth really before, probably due to his own self doubts and fear of failure or rejection. I suppose the comment about him being over her by Smashed is probably just reflective of his pessimism and his NYDBTFSI attitude to what Buffy wanted/wants from him.

gregor
16-02-12, 05:41 PM
I think he said the thing about being over her after Smashed as 1) a deflection from a difficult issue, and 2) because he wants this guy to be with Buffy because he's the 'good human guy' he thinks Buffy should have. Of course he's going to downplay anything between himself and Buffy, otherwise this other dude is not going to give it a go with Buffy himself. I didn't read much into that comment one way or the other. Obviously he is not "over her" if he was about to confess that he wasn't by the pool a few seconds later. You can tell from his facial expressions that he still loves her, it's just not clear what that means. You can love someone and not think you should be together.

Miss Kitty
05-03-12, 06:31 PM
http://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/12/91/94/25/12-02-28.jpg

:)

sueworld
05-03-12, 07:45 PM
Well dear old Janes always been a strong supporter of Spuffy, but wether Whedon sees it that way is anyboys guess sadly.

Reddygirl
06-03-12, 12:09 PM
Gotta love Jane.

Emmie
09-03-12, 05:37 PM
Hello all! I stumbled across a mini-essay I'd written years ago in a comment which perfectly expresses my feelings on Buffy's romantic relationships and how she feels about Spike. So I thought I'd bring it over and share it with you.


Effulgent Love

Over the years, I've come across several fans who've held vastly different positions on the matter of Buffy Summers' heart. Some see her as never having loved anyone as much as she loved Angel, some see her as loving but never actually being in love. Personally, I see Buffy evolving throughout the series, and just as "Chosen" comes to mean freedom from the loneliness of being the only Slayer, it also means freedom from the trauma and fear that's kept her from truly opening herself up to loving someone again after the horrible pain of her first relationship with Angel.

But what do I mean when I talk about love? Here's how I see it evolving for her over the years.

Buffy loved Angel, there was too much emotion there, too much openness and caring and passion--it's too abiding to call it infatuation. Infatuation would've evaporated at the first signs of strife. It's too abiding to call it anything but love. That's how she felt. But was she in love with him? I don't think she ever really knew him. Cordelia knows Angel and loves him knowing all. Buffy loves Angel before she knows him, and she loves him despite not trusting him (she always emphasizes how she can't trust him even when she's professing her great feelings for him). So Buffy was in love with Angel, but she never really knew him in Season 2, and by Season 3, I think she was in denial of parts of his character in order to continue being with him. This is why Enemies freaks her out so completely.

So if defining being in love means full commitment and what's more, truly intimate knowledge of the person and a completely open heart--then she doesn't have that with Angel. She's in love with her idea of him, not with who he really is. And that's key. I call Buffy's love for Angel a fantasy love.

With Riley, I think she loves him, but she never fully opens up after all the Angel trauma. And I don't mean this on a pure emotional level, but also in terms of intimacy. She does begin to know Riley, sorta, until he ends up becoming a person she doesn't even recognize because his identity is torn apart by the end of Season 4 and he's experiencing an existential crisis in Season 5 with Buffy being the only thing left for him to cling to (which was true even in Season 4--the hankerchief). Buffy keeps secrets from Riley just as Riley keeps secrets from her; they're on their way to getting to know each other in Season 4, just as Riley's losing his entire sense of self--so how can they have intimate knowledge then? They're "Doomed" as their first relationship episode describes them. They don't understand each other, they don't see each other clearly, and so much of their interaction stems from miscommunication and a lack of intimacy. The potential for their love is cut short by them just not being right for each other. They're incompatible.

With Buffy and Spike, they're enemies, they're allies, they're friends, they're sexual partners and mutual abusers, then they become each other's silent strength and emotional reliance. They see "the best and worst" in each other and refuse to look away, but what's more they also help each other move beyond self-deception. Buffy helps Spike see past his own self-loathing with her belief in his redemption, just as Spike helps Buffy rediscover her inner strength in "Touched". They embody love in all its forms: unconditional, inspirational, abiding, enlightening. Clearly, Buffy loves Spike and Spike loves Buffy, but is Buffy in love with Spike?

If I'm defining Buffy's state of being in love as an open heart, a wealth of intimacy and passion, I think the moment that most clearly demonstrates this is in "Chosen" when she says "I love you." This is the first time Buffy is totally present when she first professes her love, declaring her heart of her own volition, to a man in the entirety of the series. Angel instigates the declaration in "Lie To Me", basically waiting for her to emotionally commit herself before he'll talk about Drusilla; and she never manages to actually tell Riley. It's difficult to define commitment when it comes to Buffy and Spike, especially in that moment, but I think she was so caught in this overwhelming tide of emotion that she would've kept holding Spike's hand as the world fell down upon her. She ignores Faith's cries to follow, and she doesn't want to die anymore, but that moment there--I think that's when she's fully in love and loving with an open heart, loving the person she knows, not the person she imagines him to be. Clear eyes and an open heart and a commitment that cannot be shaken by the end of the world -- she's burning with him, alight with love, lost in a world set apart and so painfully true that I feel it goes beyond merely saying she's in love. This isn't just being in love, this is effulgent love, this is transcendent love.

But if that moment is the pinnacle of what it means to be in love, the exquisite embodiment of love in all its lush symbolism with hands that literally burn and a world that literally falls away, it's important to look back to what came before and realize that being in love isn't just about telling the other person or even being with the other person. People can be in love with someone else and not have it reciprocated and the expression of that love can be shown in ways other than words. Buffy shows Spike all the ways she loves in Season 7 (the five languages of love), and it culminates with her verbal declaration in "Chosen", that final barrier to her fully opening her heart again, that damaged, battered organ that's been too afraid to love ever since her father left her, ever since Angel traumatized her in Innocence and the back half of Season 2 and the more in Season 3. In that moment, it's not as if she's suddenly fallen in love, but that she's discovered the clarity and strength to declare it and her love bursts forth, breaking through all those walls she's constructed to defend her heart from pain. Her heart is "full of love," it always has been, and she does not pull away in fear, she embraces love as she grips Spike's hand, and the old wounds are healed with cleansing fire: effulgence of the heart.

For Buffy, love is fire, flame, a fire she wants back, and it's something that grows and grows within her until she's braving the fire to reach out to Spike, trusting him with her heart, so committed to the moment, to the intensity of emotion and love, that she nearly dies with him. Intimacy, passion, commitment all bursting alight, a joining of his heart and hers, a handfasting of soulful flame. If that's not being in love, then I'm not sure what would ever satisfy the definition of "in love" as it's one of the most extravagant expressions of a love "that burns and consumes" that I've ever witnessed in fiction.

Stoney
09-03-12, 07:33 PM
Thanks for sharing that Emmie, your thoughts re: Angel mirror the way that I have always read their relationship and I have noticed that it is commonly referred to as the 'fantasy first love'. I like your reading of the ILY hellmouth scene and though I really don't think that will be looked back upon in the comics it is a shame as it shouldn't have its intensity tarnished. The only thing I don't agree on is Riley, I think Buffy cared for him and saw the potential but I don't think she ever got to loving him, they just didn't click well enough. And therein lies the absolute that Buffy gets with Spike, clickety click. They are well matched in every way they touch - he is a fighting allie, sexual partner, friend/confidant. And I will match your sentiment that I have never seen a fictional couple that mesh so perfectly and hold this air of realistic love about their relationship.

Emmie
09-03-12, 08:27 PM
I tend to look back at Riley with a bit of 'meh' feelings, but then I remember how desperately Buffy was to rescue him from the Initiative and when he was at death's door in Out of My Mind and I think she did love him. Those weren't just "I like you" feelings. I just think it was a love she kept at a safe distance. I think she felt too much about Riley for it to not be labeled as love.

Her relationship with Riley is the one that had commitment and love, but lacked passion and intimacy. Where as her love for both Angel and Spike, there was love and passion, so it manifested as more romantic.

I think she only ever felt love, passion and intimacy with Spike, though. And that reached its zenith in "Chosen". And then circumstances just interfered with it all so the trappings of commitment, the traditionally recognized signs of coupledom (e.g. white picket fences, rugrats, a commitment ceremony).

This really informs how I read Season 8. The reason Buffy's so insistent about not thinking of Spike, of pushing him away in her mind, is because she laid herself bare in "Chosen" and she thought it meant something, only for his resurrection and not-calling to demonstrate that he'd move on. And I'd hope she'd started to move on as well by that point because being in love with someone who's dead is incredibly painful.

So they had their moment and then it all got swept away. But the potential is still there and I think we're seeing that explored in Season 8.

Stoney
09-03-12, 09:41 PM
I tend to look back at Riley with a bit of 'meh' feelings, but then I remember how desperately Buffy was to rescue him from the Initiative and when he was at death's door in Out of My Mind and I think she did love him. Those weren't just "I like you" feelings. I just think it was a love she kept at a safe distance. I think she felt too much about Riley for it to not be labeled as love.

Her relationship with Riley is the one that had commitment and love, but lacked passion and intimacy. Where as her love for both Angel and Spike, there was love and passion, so it manifested as more romantic.

Buffy is full of love, we know but I just don't think it was romantic love for Riley. I can see that she cared beyond him just being someone she knows, she cares deeply romantically but that doesn't mean it has to be love, it doesn't have to be that strong. I just don't think she really felt 'the thing' and we all know you gotta! But then I don't 'get' the Xander thing from Buffy's pov for the same reason, there is just a level lacking with both of these guys.

Completely agree on all you say Spuffy-wise here. :D

Reddygirl
10-03-12, 02:58 AM
Emmie, thanks for posting your lovely essay. The moment when Buffy and Spike touched hands was an amazing moment. And beyond the romantic significance is the idea that the fire "purified" their relationship, healing the old hurts between them.

TimeTravellingBunny
17-03-12, 12:44 AM
A kind of amusing Tamblr "Buffyconfession" and the usually succinct commentary by temporarilyobsessive: http://temporarilyobsessive.tumblr.com/post/19403755751/buffyconfessions-i-love-spike-especially


buffyconfessions:

I love Spike, especially souless, he is really awesome. But, I think his chemistry with Buffy is purely sexual, they don’t really touch my heart, except for the last episode of season 7. I can’t see them as a couple, only as two people who really care about each other.

……..do you realize that you just refuted your main sentence with your last.

But, y’know, enjoy your purely sexual (not a couple) who really care about each other? :/

Indeed. The funniest thing is that it's something you'll hear often in BtVS fandom, which is why this post was responsible for me coming up with the tag POPULAR FANDOM OPINIONS THAT MAKE NO ****ING SENSE. :lol:

Stoney
17-03-12, 01:56 AM
Well there is nothing 'right' about Spuffy... aside from the perfection of the ship. :)

ubi4soft
17-03-12, 10:24 AM
Cookie Dough Part 3 (http://emmiemears.com/2012/03/15/cookie-dough-part-3-buffy-and-spike/) Buffy and Spike

there's also part 1 (http://emmiemears.com/2012/03/10/cookie-dough-part-1-buffy-and-angel/) Buffy and Angel and part 2 (http://emmiemears.com/2012/03/13/cookie-dough-part-2-buffy-and-riley/) Buffy and Riley

emmiemears
17-03-12, 06:45 PM
Cookie Dough Part 3 (http://emmiemears.com/2012/03/15/cookie-dough-part-3-buffy-and-spike/) Buffy and Spike

there's also part 1 (http://emmiemears.com/2012/03/10/cookie-dough-part-1-buffy-and-angel/) Buffy and Angel and part 2 (http://emmiemears.com/2012/03/13/cookie-dough-part-2-buffy-and-riley/) Buffy and Riley

Thanks heaps for the blog pingbacks! I've been wanting to suss out these three relationships for a while, and having now caught up with season 9 (except for the most recent issue) and having a current rewatch of Angel made me want to dig into it.

:heart:

ubi4soft
26-03-12, 08:53 PM
http://www.ablogcuratedby.com/rodarte/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-joss-whedon-and-katie-lucas/


“Katie Lucas: Who did you like together with Buffy the most: Angel, Riley, or Spike?

Joss Whedon: You know what, I liked Spike. With Angel it’s too “Romeo and Juliet”. Which means, as soon as it happens you’re bored. Riley, you know he was a well-adjusted person who loved her in a much, much healthier way than the other two guys. Nobody wants to see that. With Buffy and Spike, they had a real Beatrice and Benedick kind of relationship, in “Much Ado About Nothing”. I think with the wedding, she would have tried to do something fast, but he would have made it elaborate and done everything wrong. It would have been extraordinarily counter-intuitive, and awesome!” - March 2012

Tranquillity
26-03-12, 10:43 PM
That's a nice interview! Thanks for posting.
I think its funny that Joss has given some thought to a Spuffy wedding - that's something that a lot of us Spuffy shippers aren't game to even think about ;)

Tallgent
27-03-12, 11:54 PM
Banner effing week for Spuffies. Take a gander at which characters they have at #5.

http://www.sfx.co.uk/2012/03/27/top-200-sexiest-characters-in-sci-fi/96/

.....Karma's gonna be a harsh mistress come issue #8.

Tallgent

Moscow Watcher
10-04-12, 12:47 PM
Can I rec a link?

Shipping Spuffy ....whys and wherefores by Shadowkat67
http://shadowkat67.livejournal.com/793238.html

Spuffy subverts certain tropes. Which ones?

TimeTravellingBunny
10-04-12, 01:50 PM
Can I rec a link?

Shipping Spuffy ....whys and wherefores by Shadowkat67
http://shadowkat67.livejournal.com/793238.html

Spuffy subverts certain tropes. Which ones?
I'd like to know which five types of Spuffy shippers she thinks there are (I won't ask or comment because she flipped out on me with no reason and attacked me on her LJ about a month ago). Does the "vast majority" of Spuffy shippers really identify with Spike rather than Buffy?

She's also using "ship" in a strange way - you can't say you "ship Buffy" or "ship Spike". You ship two people, not one.

There are some things I agree with in that essay, and some that I disagree with. I think her view of the relationship as a "gender-flipped one" in which Buffy is in control is oversimplified and not quite true. There are some ways in which their gender roles are flipped - and some ways in which they are not. Spike does play the male version of the femme fatale, but I can tell you many ways in which Spike also plays some classic masculine roles, from admirer/courtly lover to stalker/pursuer to aggressive male seducer to reformed beast/bad boy. Likewise for the roles that Buffy plays. The closest to how I see it is what an academic essay on Spuffy said - they don't flip gender roles, they share gender roles. I don't think anyone was "in control" of the relationship, especially not in season 6 which was a constant struggle. I know the view expressed in this essay, it's the view of many female Spuffy shippers who identify with Spike and not with Buffy. But I don't share it and it misses a lot of the complexity of the relationship. Which is what makes it all the more interesting. I'm not interested in the same old story with genders just flipped, or in stories where one person is in control and the other one is a "bottom" (LOL irony).

I disagree even more about her summary of Buffy/Angel. Her view is, again, one I know, since it tends to be the view of female fans of Spike who dislike Angel and Bangel. You all know I'm not fond of Bangel anymore and haven't been for a long time, but I find this, again, oversimplified, and it doesn't match how I see it:


The trope is older/experienced guy, powerful, knowledgable, wealthy and a control freak with either a dark secret, a dark past, or an abusive childhood - seduces younger girl, who is less experienced, and not wealthy and who saves him or heals him in some way. It's a partriachial trope for a patriachial world. Examples? Stefan/Elena, Angel/Buffy, Christian Grey/Anatasia, Edward/Bella, Dracula/Mina, Mr. Rochester/Jane Eyre, Cordelia/Angel, Fred/Wesely, Fred/Gunn, Echo/ What'shisname who played Helo (Ballard?) there are others. It's an old trope. I'm not belittling the trope. I liked it at one point. It's popular for a reason. I like to call it the Beauty and the Beast complex. It sort of goes back to that fairy tale, I think. Very popular with the 18-24 set. Also for some reason with successful career women and mothers in their 40s, if Shades of Grey is any indication.
Some of the pairings above don't match the description, but I'll focus on B/A here.

What she misses is that Bangel actually subverted those tropes like whoa. The description above is how it may appear on the surface, because it's presented from Buffy's POV, and Angel tends to be a mysterious older man who gives her books of cheesy 19th century poetry and inexplicably lives in a Gothic mansion or an apartment with a lot of artefacts from around the world. But in fact, when you skim beneath the surface and think about all the facts...

(Bear in mind that this is BtVS Angel I'm talking about, not AtS Angel.)

Angel, like Spike, also plays the "femme fatale" or rather homme fatale to Buffy's hero. Maybe even more so, because we get to see him almost solely from Buffy's POV, he rarely gets his own, unlike Spike, who occasionally threatens to take over the narrative with his POV of 'unrequited lover trying to win the lady'. Angel is mysterious and apparently unattainable - from Buffy's POV, even though he's actually been obsessing over Buffy before she even knew he existed. Angel is a damsel and Buffy saves him more often than the other way round - see What's My Line.

Angel is not wealthy. Angel is not powerful (not until he loses his soul and regains his standing with the vampires). Angel has no job, no friends, no family except for vampires that he's estranged from, no purpose in life other than following Buffy around. He's the guy who used to live in the street and eat rats. He must be squatting in that big abandoned mansion (the real estate is really cheap in Sunnydale) while those artefacts can only be stuff he stole while travelling the world with Darla. Buffy is the one with a job/duty, the one who goes to school and has friends and family, the one who takes care of the community. She is a fighter; he's the one who gives up and submits to destiny. She has an active personality; he has a passive one. It's Angel, not Spike, who is weak - and he knows that (see Amends) while Buffy's strong.

How Angel managed to make Buffy not notice how pathetic he really was in Sunnydale is really amazing. His surface alpha male persona seems to be more convincing than Spike's, especially when the fandom is concerned, or it's more subtly subverted and deconstructed so that people don't even notice it.

That's one thing that Meltzer got right in 8.34: Angel is the yin (traditionally described as the "female" principle) to Buffy's "yang" (supposedly "masculine" principle - oh those gender stereotypes. (Spike can't be her yin; he's too "yang" for that and sometimes seems to be more "yang" to her "yin" than the other way round. Spike is certainly a yang to Angel's yin, for the most part - [the Spangels will love this, even though I don't mean it in the slashy way).

See some of the traits associated with yin and yang:

Yin - Darkness, Night, Moon, Winter, Passivity, Feminine, Shade, Rest, Flat, Matter, Produces form, Descending, Below, Water, Cold, Dampness, Deficiency, Hypo-activity, Quiet

Yang - Light, Day, Sun, Summer, Activity, Masculine, Brightness, Activity, Heaven, Round, Energy, Produces energy, Ascending, Above, Fire, Heat, Dryness, Excess, Hyperactivity, Talkative

Moscow Watcher
10-04-12, 03:07 PM
Does the "vast majority" of Spuffy shippers really identify with Spike rather than Buffy?

I'd say that back in 2002-2003 it was that way. I think it's different in current fandom: the majority of Spuffies love Buffy and Spike equally, and among the minority that looks at them from a distinct POV, there are more Buffy fans than Spike fans.

Just my impression.

ubi4soft
30-04-12, 05:53 AM
EW (http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20483133_20591209,00.html#21152336) includes Spike and Buffy in Smashed in their "10 Sexiest Badass Fight Scenes". "The sexual tension between Buffy and Spike had long been bubbling like blood from a pierced jugular, and at the end of season 6's ''Smashed'' episode it finally all came out. Of course, the two busted through both taboos and several walls in the process".

New Spuffy tumblr to follow. Check this out
http://spuffymafia.tumblr.com/tagged/inappropriate-spuffy-quotes

Francy
30-04-12, 08:47 AM
EW (http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20483133_20591209,00.html#21152336) includes Spike and Buffy in Smashed in their "10 Sexiest Badass Fight Scenes". "The sexual tension between Buffy and Spike had long been bubbling like blood from a pierced jugular, and at the end of season 6's ''Smashed'' episode it finally all came out. Of course, the two busted through both taboos and several walls in the process".



I went to see the article, and my mood was immediately ruined by the haters' comments below. Can haters please just... go away? They are everywhere!

Anyway, I'm going to console myself with this amazing Spuffy video that apparently has been around forever, and that most of you here must certainly have already seen (unless you have been living under a rock like I seem to have). This is why we ship Spuffy... the epic of it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReY0QRL06h8&feature=related

:thud:

Stoney
30-04-12, 10:04 AM
I went to see the article, and my mood was immediately ruined by the haters' comments below. Can haters please just... go away? They are everywhere!



Arrrgh! I don't normally ever post comments on sites and just lately I seem unable to resist the urge. Oh well, hopefully that will help to provide some balance back. :2party:

TimeTravellingBunny
30-04-12, 12:17 PM
Well, that's one list that even EW writers couldn't put Bangel on instead of Spuffy! :lol:

sueworld
30-04-12, 01:39 PM
Oh those innapropriate quotes on that Tumblr site are just aright hoot. I particulary laughed at this one. :lol:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m380xwM7hv1rumyr7o1_500.jpg

Stoney
30-04-12, 01:51 PM
...Yum! :D

BuffySpike
07-05-12, 07:58 PM
I tend to look back at Riley with a bit of 'meh' feelings, but then I remember how desperately Buffy was to rescue him from the Initiative and when he was at death's door in Out of My Mind and I think she did love him. Those weren't just "I like you" feelings. I just think it was a love she kept at a safe distance. I think she felt too much about Riley for it to not be labeled as love.

Her relationship with Riley is the one that had commitment and love, but lacked passion and intimacy. Where as her love for both Angel and Spike, there was love and passion, so it manifested as more romantic.

I think she only ever felt love, passion and intimacy with Spike, though. And that reached its zenith in "Chosen". And then circumstances just interfered with it all so the trappings of commitment, the traditionally recognized signs of coupledom (e.g. white picket fences, rugrats, a commitment ceremony).

This really informs how I read Season 8. The reason Buffy's so insistent about not thinking of Spike, of pushing him away in her mind, is because she laid herself bare in "Chosen" and she thought it meant something, only for his resurrection and not-calling to demonstrate that he'd move on. And I'd hope she'd started to move on as well by that point because being in love with someone who's dead is incredibly painful.

So they had their moment and then it all got swept away. But the potential is still there and I think we're seeing that explored in Season 8.

Oh i bet it comes back towards even the end of the comics. Just like in the series it will come at the end because IMO Spuffy is endgame and the end relationship on the show and in the comics.

BuffySpike
07-05-12, 08:19 PM
.

1) What do you think of the Spike/Buffy relationship? Do you like it? If you do/don't why?
I love it because I find these kinds of relationships far more interesting to watch on screen than the kind that is love at first sight. I love it when two people who initially despise one another end up falling in love with one another.

2) If you ship them, when did you start doing so?
The second buffy gave Spike a kiss in Intervention. I realised that the relationship had the potential to be a mutual thing and not just one sided

3) Do you have a favourite Spike/Buffy moment?
The kiss they share in Tabula Rasa, It says a lot IMO. You can see how amazing it is for Buffy in particular. How much she loves kissing him.

4) Do you think there's more to explore in their relationship? If yes/no why?
Yes, they need to get together and have a proper relationship. They are meant to be together.

5) Do you think there's a chance for the couple in the future?
Yes

6) Do you sympathize more with Buffy or Spike or maybe both?
Spike, even as a human and as a vampire he suffers from low self esteem and as his mother put it he will always be a weak sentimental fool.

[B]7) Do you like their reunion in the comics? If yes/no why?
I have not read the comics.

Miss Kitty
12-05-12, 05:56 PM
I was reading the Shooting Script of Potential (7x12) and I noticed that there was a scene which wasn't in the episode (nothing huge, but still) :


EXT. VAMP NEST - NIGHT

Outside the crypt. Buffy joins Spike, who's been waiting outside. She pauses, hearing the sounds of a terrible fight coming from within the crypt. She hesitates, wanting to go back in. She places her hand on the crypt door's knob.

Spike places his hand atop hers, stopping Buffy from re- entering.

They stay, listening to the fighting sounds escalate.

Source : http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/134_scri.html


I didn't know about this scene (even if I don't know if we're supposed to consider it canon since it wasn't in the episode). I really like that Buffy was so conflicted and wanted to go back in. At least, it's nice to have a clue about her reaction.

It already was posted elsewhere and probably known by some of you, but I re-post here an excerpt of the Chosen shooting script :


BUFFY
Spike...

SPIKE
I mean it. I gotta do this.

His hand is held up, frozen in his rictus of revelatory pain. Buffy takes her own hand, interlocks it with his. A moment, and both hands burst into flames.

We hold close on the two of them, ignoring the flames, looking at each other.

BUFFY
I love you.

A moment. He smiles kindly.

SPIKE
No you don't. But thanks for saying it.

A big quake rocks them. Spike pushes her away.

SPIKE (cont'd)
It's your world up there. Now GO!


Since the scene is particularly discussed, it could be an interesting add.

BuffySpike
12-05-12, 10:25 PM
I just watched Something Blue again and there was a lot of foreshadowing, The moment when she tells Riley about being engaged and goes into this long talk about realising she loved Spike. The only thing that didn't actually come to pass between the two by the end of the show was marriage....

Interesting.

wonder if Joss had more time with the series before its abrupt end.....

Tallgent
13-05-12, 03:34 PM
Miss Kitty wrote:


I didn't know about this scene (even if I don't know if we're supposed to consider it canon since it wasn't in the episode). I really like that Buffy was so conflicted and wanted to go back in. At least, it's nice to have a clue about her reaction.

I wrote about that in my Potential thoughts. Here's the relevant bit:


I wish we could have seen the door scene. In the shooting script, Spike and Buffy are on the other side of the door and Buffy is agonizing over the sounds coming from the other side. Impulsively, heroically she puts her hand on the latch ready to burst in, Mother Slayer protecting her cubs. But Daddy Spike gently puts his hand on hers to stop her and they share an intense gaze between them. Then they both lean in to hear the outcome. Talk about a scene you would Youtube to death.

For Spuffies the significance of the door is almost self-evident. Last season we saw the haunting sequence in Dead Things where Spike and Buffy feel each other’s presence on the opposite side of the door but due to their own self-made barriers cannot truly connect. But, oh, how they want to. This scene shows they finally have connected as they are on the same side of the door, both perfectly in sync with the other’s wishes and trusting of the other’s faith. Buffy could have barreled through and saved them anyway, just as she could have hauled off and slugged Caleb later, but she trusts Spike’s judgment and more importantly she heeds it.

And as for the Chosen thing, this is why Joss is such an ingenious bastard. That cut line gives the whole thing context. You can see why he says what he says. But because it's cut it's left open-ended. That's why that whole scene has engendered as much debate as it has. Genius, I tells ya!

Tallgent

BuffySpike
14-05-12, 12:24 AM
I noticed they also cut a line from Buffy in that episode. When Spike says "I don't know what I would have done if you'd have gone up those stairs"

she then says:

"lets not find out"

wonder why he cut that one.

Also on a side note. These two are constantly drawn to one another like in Dead Things. That whole scene on both sides of the door is just....the fact that the shooting script says that Buffy is like "an animal sensing is mate" would again suggest they are soul mates.

When I have the time. I am going to look through all the spuffy moments that I feel suggest they are soulmates (season 4 onwards) and post them..

I know Smallville is a totally different show but there are parallels in my opinion

Lana was Clark's first love and you have no idea how long it took him to get over that. When he first met Lois Lane he couldnt stand her (and vice versa), then they became friends, then they got physically attracted and THEN he started to love her and finally they came together. Before that happened though there were various hints that they were the destined pair and I think its there in Buffy too when it comes to Spike

I personally think Joss decided this in season 4.

Stoney
25-05-12, 10:58 AM
What’s wrong with Buffy and romance? Bear with me, it becomes Spuffy(!)

So I have just had 3 days sans internet access. After two I got sooo twitchy I read through my S8 TPBs! It wasn’t an in depth read, just straight text, start to finish straight through and I was left feeling depressed!! I found Buffy very unnerving throughout. Twilight talks about removing her moral certainty but she seemed to be getting there herself.

I know that Twilight victimised/persecuted Buffy but we were dropped into the story with a Buffy who was having problems from issue 1. Before Twilight even really kicked in, that she was aware of, Buffy wasn’t exhibiting the most honourable behaviour. She was disassociating herself from her choices. The whole bank robbery never was satisfactorily explained. Why would Buffy have chosen to do that? She kept it all away from the Scoobs too (and no Spike in sight to blame for her shutting them out). But the Satsu thing was awful. Buffy chose to selfishly use someone who is in love with her for a night of physical satisfaction. They only covered the nature of the night together after the event so Buffy chose to enter into that despite the fact that she knew how Satsu felt.

The behaviour with Satsu particularly bothered me because it was so selfish, and, well, pretty heartless. Her disregard here for how her actions could hurt someone else and how it might make them feel is astounding. This behaviour certainly supports those people who think that she would have just taken what she wanted from Spike, didn’t mean ILY and could just be so caustic on his return without it relating at all to any deeper emotional responses. My main problem with all of this is, to be honest, that it would be to turn Buffy into a bit of a bitch.

The whole thing with Xander is also illustrative, she is low and lonely and only wants him when he is no longer available. Would she have gone for it if she hadn’t seen him with Dawn? I very much doubt it and so does Xander. He calls her on it, how unbelievable it is and he is right*. This is also strengthened and echoed by Willow realising about Xander and Dawn, she showed no shock or any need for tact around Buffy because Xander/Buffy was never on the horizon. So again here we have her dismissing other peoples feelings for her own as she entirely goes against her sister, and even after Xander rejects the reality of these emotions she tries a bit of surreptitious chest pressing?!! Not on Buffy. That. Is. Your. Sister’s. Boyfriend. Urrrgh, a really nasty moment.

[*As an aside I did enjoy Xander’s characterisation in S8 and think this was a great example of how mature he has become, his character was the most progressive from S7 I felt.]

Should we just take her lack of true awareness of her feelings, as her allowing herself to be drawn into a moment that made her feel something more than what she does simply because she is so low? Or could this be supporting that Spike was right too when he said NYDBTFSI? Though that repetition would be of someone who is a selfish dramatist all the time and I don’t think it holds because the S7 Buffy is not the one we are seeing here, then, she was, if anything, detached from her emotions rather than drowning in them.

So perhaps that is just it. S8 Buffy is drowning in loneliness, confusion and pressure. But it was there before Twilight, unless we are supposed to fanwank it all as a Twilight build up. So I find the Buffy characterisation a difficult one to reconcile in S8. She seems to have immatured greatly from the woman who led the potentials and inspired love and loyalty from Spike in S7. Did the hero simply crumble under the pressure to become a self-focussed whiner? It doesn’t work for me. This Buffy isn’t the one I know and love. Sure she can be too self-focussed but this level of internalisation to the extent of being pretty dismissive of any of the emotions of others is too far.

On a Spuffy/Bangel front S8 presents an interesting summary of those two relationships. References to both dot throughout. With Angel they are ones of longing for girlish romance/love and passion and with Spike there is an interesting mix of love/passion and denial. They are often referenced together as her greatest loves but the Bangel story plays out as a destiny, a romantic ideal that will never be truly fulfilled. When she has the opportunity to be with him she turns away from it and when Spike returns she sends Angel away. There is such confusion there for Buffy. She wants Angel, she wants the romance but she has to deny Spike to convince herself of Angel. The fact that she needs defences against her memories of Spike is interesting and he is referenced throughout the season. Off the top of my head...


Spike is in her sexual fantasy that Ethan views.
There is all the pointed play of ‘love’ and ‘pet’ that Buffy doesn’t want to hear from Ethan.
There is her reference to ‘that sex’, a pretty safe assumption that this is about Spike, but it denies his importance to her and just looks at the physical itch she can’t scratch.
She refers to the people who love her dying, including burning up, before breaking down.
D!Wilow says the most important men in both her and Melaka’s lives are lurks.
Andrew speaks up for team Spike, which is the only time someone directly references him to her but she doesn’t respond.
In Retreat, straight after Buffy has talked about just giving in, we have a scene with Riley and Twangel where there is a repeated play on Spike? being used.
Always Darkest seems particularly significant. “You can’t kill what’s inside you” is said to her straight away with reference to smoking in a crater and then Spike comes in. I had always read this as being about Spike and Angel equally but in context of the whole I honestly think it is about Spike and him not choosing to go to her. This is what she is bottling up, he chose Angel and she knows he doesn’t even like him.
She won’t even let Twangel talk about LA, she is furious at the mere mention of it.
Whilst they are in twilight, when Buffy starts to reject it for her family, when she starts to talk about wanting to save those on earth she is wearing a Union flag on her t-shirt and we know that their clothing changes had meaning.


But this is how it plays, there she is destined, having destructive, destined world destroying sex and they show a pic of her stood fighting side by side with Spike as a future view and state that both vamps were her truest loves. Buffy is having sex with Angel but she is using it to escape her unhappiness, her loneliness and to cling to the illusion that this romance will make her happy, that everything that happened in the last year wasn’t without direction entirely because this was where she was heading. She wants to feel that something good is possible at the end, but this isn’t really what she wants. She rejects what Angel is offering and returns to earth to save her friends/family and, unknowingly, she returns to Spike.

Their reunion isn’t pretty but it wasn’t going to be, they have hurt eachother and Buffy is denying him. She allows herself internally to fantasise about his jealousy, about getting physical with him but she doesn’t want him to know. Meanwhile, we see Twilight telling Angel he was picked because he is simple, basically they knew he could be taken in, but in contrast, we see Spike questioning it all, being perceptive, knowing it is Angel*. This comparison is huge.

[As an aside there is a really important and telling moment re: Spike and Angel before the seed is broken. Spike isn’t surprised at all by Angel doing all of this, his feelings towards him are clear when he comments about him finally choosing a side when he returns as Twilight.]

The whole season lays it out. Angel the romanticised tall, dark and handsome guy who provides an illusion of happiness but she can’t talk to him, she says that side never worked, and she doesn’t want to stay with him. Spike is real but she is hurt and defensive and denies him but he comes in as the hero, helps, discusses things with her and gives her what support she needs. This holds true for their dynamic to the season end, she can’t handle it and runs away, literally, well, falls through a window!

The whole season builds to those three being there in the same time and space again and lays out the dichotomy of the two vamp relationships. Spike makes his heroic return in the debris of the betrayal Buffy did to herself and that Angel does to them all. But she doesn’t feel the romance towards Spike. Will she ever? Until she stops denying him she will never open herself up fully to the possibilities. She may end up realising that she can have a realistic relationship with someone who stands by her side and fights with her to support her not pull her down and manipulate her and that there can be romance too. She may not, and that will be as tragic as her attempts with Angel always turn out. Perhaps she will realise too late, but I still suspect that his return at the end of S9 will be her opportunity. If not then I suspect Spuffy will always be a back burner because if Buffy can have lived S8 and never come to see the difference of Angel commanding her and Spike supporting her there is no hope there.

But anyway, as a Spike-centric fan I can gladly watch my guy being a hero, it comes naturally to him and he hits it on the mark, finding his way without people (dogs or lions!) directing him like a puppet. I am still settled and happy with normalcy being explored this season but it would be good if, during her balancing of Slayer!Buffy with Human!Buffy if Buffy manages a little bit of an epiphany and notices that it isn’t Spike who is her dark place, he is effulgent and truly is the ‘wisest and bravest knight in all the land’, gotta love him.

ubi4soft
25-05-12, 03:03 PM
Wow, Stoney. Loose your net more often but never loose your optimism :)

Here's some old IO9 article about The Strange, Twisted, And Destructive Love Stories of Joss Whedon (http://io9.com/5378355/the-strange-twisted-and-destructive-love-stories-of-joss-whedon)
*
short version
*
Buffy and Angel It's a sophisticated metaphor for the terrible versions of themselves people sometimes become after sex. But it's also a quintessentially Joss Whedon touch: when the couple is at their happiest, things take a turn for the darkest.

Buffy and Spike This arc is also steeped in metaphor. The two of them, at their darkest moments, turn to each other, and they even help each other become the people they want to be, but not before they help tear each other down to the saddest, most broken people they can be.

Stoney
26-05-12, 11:19 AM
Wow, Stoney. Loose your net more often but never loose your optimism :)

There is always a healthy dose of optimism remaining. I can't help myself with Spike!!


Buffy and Angel It's a sophisticated metaphor for the terrible versions of themselves people sometimes become after sex. But it's also a quintessentially Joss Whedon touch: when the couple is at their happiest, things take a turn for the darkest.

Buffy and Spike This arc is also steeped in metaphor. The two of them, at their darkest moments, turn to each other, and they even help each other become the people they want to be, but not before they help tear each other down to the saddest, most broken people they can be.

Yes, definitely complicated, but one has transient negatives, here one does have the potential for a happy ending.

Hey up, there's that optimism again! :2party:

BuffySpike
27-05-12, 11:00 AM
There is always a healthy dose of optimism remaining. I can't help myself with Spike!!



Yes, definitely complicated, but one has transient negatives, here one does have the potential for a happy ending.

Hey up, there's that optimism again! :2party:

I still see the optimism in the Spuffy explanation. They tear eachother down but begin to build their relationship into a better place, growing apart as people first yada yada.. I don't see it in the Bangel one, it just says they can never be happy together. Romeo and Juliet..yada yada. That may just be me looking through my Spuffy glasses though :xd

Sosa lola
27-05-12, 11:30 AM
Would she have gone for it if she hadn’t seen him with Dawn? I very much doubt it and so does Xander.

Actually, she was going to tell Xander about her feelings, which was when she found him kissing Dawn. So, she was going to make a move before knowing about Xander and Dawn. Now I'm not sure about how serious Buffy's feelings were: did she really want to be with him or did she seek him out of loneliness? I don't know. But it's canon that her feelings were strong enough to the point of her wanting to confess them before she saw Xander kissing her sister.

Stoney
27-05-12, 03:54 PM
Actually, she was going to tell Xander about her feelings, which was when she found him kissing Dawn. So, she was going to make a move before knowing about Xander and Dawn. Now I'm not sure about how serious Buffy's feelings were: did she really want to be with him or did she seek him out of loneliness? I don't know. But it's canon that her feelings were strong enough to the point of her wanting to confess them before she saw Xander kissing her sister.

We assume she is going to go and tell him because of the guy talking about letting someone know you love him. I assume she would have told him. I wasn't being very eloquent, seems to be hitting me left, right and centre at the moment, I meant more in the sense of would it ever really have gone anywhere. She may have told him she had feelings for him but I don't think it would have ended up in a full and committed relationship, or if it had, not for very long. I think it would have been quite damaging to their friendship because of the motivations for it. Xander, I honestly feel, gets it exactly pegged and even if he hadn't been with Dawn he basically tells her it would not have reciprocated. As he said, if it was a couple of years ago, not months. :)

TimeTravellingBunny
02-06-12, 06:27 PM
Twilight talks about removing her moral certainty but she seemed to be getting there herself.
Well, that's the point of the season - but she was getting there with the "help" of Twilight (and not just Twilight) - not the creature we see later or the glow, but the campaign of terror against her Slayer army by Twilight's forces. It's hard to say when and how it all started; a part of Buffy being 'off' is because she's having more power than she ever did, commanding a huge army of people who idolize her - which makes her more lonely and isolated, ironically. But she's also isolated because of the campaign against Slayers, which removes her further from the rest of the human race.


I know that Twilight victimised/persecuted Buffy but we were dropped into the story with a Buffy who was having problems from issue 1. Before Twilight even really kicked in, that she was aware of, Buffy wasn’t exhibiting the most honourable behaviour. She was disassociating herself from her choices. The whole bank robbery never was satisfactorily explained. Why would Buffy have chosen to do that?
Huge army, lots of responsibility, lots of power, need to finance that army, lack of resources... Buffy and her Army made a mistake when they did such a bad PR job and probably cut off most of the legitimate sources of finances they could have had.

She's still feeling the need to justify herself for breaking the human laws, though - excusing herself through the fact that the jewel was insured and nobody would get hurt. (I can't say I'm too bothered by stealing jewels from the rich, to be honest. I was more bothered when she unceremoniously kicked a man out of his own house in Touched. We've seen on that occasion that Buffy's morals can waver when she's desperate and low.)

I think it was more bothersome/significant that she had revised her old policy of not killing humans: "I thought not killing humans separates us from the bad guys" - "No, not being bad separates us from the bad guys".


She kept it all away from the Scoobs too (and no Spike in sight to blame for her shutting them out).
Err, Spike isn't exactly known for blaming Buffy for shutting the Scoobies out.


But the Satsu thing was awful. Buffy chose to selfishly use someone who is in love with her for a night of physical satisfaction. They only covered the nature of the night together after the event so Buffy chose to enter into that despite the fact that she knew how Satsu felt.

The behaviour with Satsu particularly bothered me because it was so selfish, and, well, pretty heartless. Her disregard here for how her actions could hurt someone else and how it might make them feel is astounding.
OK, this is a part I really don't get. What was "awful", selfish or heartless about it? Satsu was in love with her, Buffy liked Satsu, they had a brief fling, there was no abuse or mistreatment on either side, Buffy was nice to Satsu, and she never tried to make her think she was in love with her. She "used Satsu selfishly" only as much as Satsu used Buffy selfishly. (Which Willow pointed out as well.) I'm pretty sure that Satsu wanted sex with Buffy more than the other way round, and was very happy to get the chance to have it (which she might not have had, if Buffy hadn't been so lonely and in need of some kind of connection to her Slayers), and it certainly seemed to be a pleasant experience even after Buffy made it clear it wouldn't continue (not that she ever made any promises it would), since Satsu initiated their "goodbye sex". The way people keep talking about it, you'd think that Buffy tricked Satsu into bed by pretending to love her or something, or that she was abusive and terrible to her. Buffy was so "selfish" that she was comically insecure and bothered about not having "done enough things" to Satsu to satisfy her, and asking what to do, since she knew so little about what to do with a girl in bed ("I mean, there is no manual..." - "Actually, there is".) Hardly seemed like a heartless bitch out to use and discard someone for sex. Why do people focus on the sex so much? If that's what she wanted, she could've gone to a club and picked up a stud for a one-night stand. She wanted a connection (which she wasn't feeling with her Slayers) - and he and Satsu had a nice friendship even before Buffy learned Satsu was in love with her. Buffy liked Satsu and thought she was 'cool' and a great fighter, she told Satsu that she was flattered, and the fact that Satsu loved her was one of the biggest reasons why she slept with her, rather than against. I don't see how it's "heartless" for people to be drawn to someone because of that person's love for them.

It's as if there's this idea that people are only allowed to have sex with someone they're in love with. If that were the case, most relationships wouldn't even happen. Or that one is not allowed to have sex with someone they like if that person is in love with them, until they're also already in love with them, too.

I certainly don't think that Buffy slept with Satsu thinking "Now I'm going to use and discard this girl". She didn't love Satsu, but she might have thought that she may eventually fall for her if she gave it a chance. People aren't always 100% sure about their sexuality, especially in the early 20s: one may think, how do I know if I'm not bisexual, if I don't try it? That's what "experimenting" is about - trying to see if something works for you or not. It turned out that it didn't.

If anything, Buffy's romantic history had taught her that she can fall for people she never expected to fall for.



This behaviour certainly supports those people who think that she would have just taken what she wanted from Spike, didn’t mean ILY and could just be so caustic on his return without it relating at all to any deeper emotional responses.
No, it doesn't. I don't see how it could. Her behavior in those two relationships is completely different. She was nice to Satsu and not at all abusive or contemptuous or caustic, but she didn't have stronger feelings for her than just liking her. Why would she ever told Spike ILY if she didn't love him, and was so selfish and didn't care about him? And why would she act caustic and rude with him as she did in #36? That could only be explained through a mix of anger and denial. Her caustic behavior to Spike is absolutely not the behavior of someone who doesn't have strong feelings. If she didn't care for Spike and acted that way, Buffy would have not just to be a massive, callous bitch, but also extremely stupid - since everyone knows that, if you want to use someone as an ally/for information/whatever, you try to be as polite and flattering and smarmy, rather than to alienate them. And if you don't reciprocate someone's feelings and want to get rid of them, you try to let them down gently - as Buffy did with Satsu. She would never be as rude with Satsu as she was with Spike. Why would she?


The whole thing with Xander is also illustrative, she is low and lonely and only wants him when he is no longer available. Would she have gone for it if she hadn’t seen him with Dawn? I very much doubt it and so does Xander.
As Sosa said, that's not true - she was going to tell him she had romantic feelings for him before she saw him with Dawn.

Satsu, Xander and Angel represent Buffy's failed attempts to form connections - as a Slayer leader, she tries to connect with a Slayer; when she's stripped of her powers in Tibet and gets a taste of "normal life", she goes for a normal human, her longtime friend, a guy she sees her stalwart friend and good guy (and who she had some romantic thoughts before - in the dream in 8.02, although back then her subconsciousness was telling her it would be a big mistake); when she gets godlike powers, she hooks up with godlike TwAngel and falls for the story about 'destiny' and allows herself to be completely separated from the normal human realm.

And in all those cases, she was going for people she felt sure were in love with her - even though she was wrong in Xander's case. But I think that she believed that Xander still loved her and thought that he was using Dawn as a substitute because he didn't know she reciprocated her feelings. What prompted her to talk to him was the wounded soldier who regretted not telling a girl he loved her when he had a chance. So, she convinced herself that she should use the last chance to tell Xander.

Now, that really was one of Buffy's low moments: it was self-centered and selfish and deluded, and she should have known better. It was a sign that she was not just lonely and lost but off in her moral choices and decisions - remember, it was after the disastrous battle that left her doubting her leadership, and after she received the Twilight powers.
(Though in a way, it's good that she did tell him, because that served to close the book and disperse any illusions on Buffy's side that Xander was waiting for her after all these years.)



This is also strengthened and echoed by Willow realising about Xander and Dawn, she showed no shock or any need for tact around Buffy because Xander/Buffy was never on the horizon. So again here we have her dismissing other peoples feelings for her own as she entirely goes against her sister, and even after Xander rejects the reality of these emotions she tries a bit of surreptitious chest pressing?!! Not on Buffy. That. Is. Your. Sister’s. Boyfriend. Urrrgh, a really nasty moment.
All right.. she definitely shouldn't have hit on him after she saw him kissing Dawn, but what "chest pressing"? :confused3: I don't know what you're talking about. Buffy realized that she had been selfish and deluded and wrong, and she and Xander hugged to confirm that they are still friends.


[*As an aside I did enjoy Xander’s characterisation in S8 and think this was a great example of how mature he has become, his character was the most progressive from S7 I felt.]
Agreed.


Should we just take her lack of true awareness of her feelings, as her allowing herself to be drawn into a moment that made her feel something more than what she does simply because she is so low? Or could this be supporting that Spike was right too when he said NYDBTFSI? Though that repetition would be of someone who is a selfish dramatist all the time and I don’t think it holds because the S7 Buffy is not the one we are seeing here, then, she was, if anything, detached from her emotions rather than drowning in them.
The only thing it supports is that the things she felt with Angel (so soon after getting rejected by Xander!) weren't, err, of the truest and realest nature, even if we disregard the glow, as some people want to do.


So perhaps that is just it. S8 Buffy is drowning in loneliness, confusion and pressure. But it was there before Twilight, unless we are supposed to fanwank it all as a Twilight build up. So I find the Buffy characterisation a difficult one to reconcile in S8. She seems to have immatured greatly from the woman who led the potentials and inspired love and loyalty from Spike in S7. Did the hero simply crumble under the pressure to become a self-focussed whiner? It doesn’t work for me. This Buffy isn’t the one I know and love. Sure she can be too self-focussed but this level of internalisation to the extent of being pretty dismissive of any of the emotions of others is too far.
Well, the theme of the season was supposed to be "Buffy betrays herself". Twilight is just an embodiment of that: getting detached from humanity, literally, and from her own humanity, getting lost in the power and fame, and being manipulated at the same time; flying and falling down.



Spike is in her sexual fantasy that Ethan views.
There is all the pointed play of ‘love’ and ‘pet’ that Buffy doesn’t want to hear from Ethan.
There is her reference to ‘that sex’, a pretty safe assumption that this is about Spike, but it denies his importance to her and just looks at the physical itch she can’t scratch.
She refers to the people who love her dying, including burning up, before breaking down.
D!Wilow says the most important men in both her and Melaka’s lives are lurks.
Andrew speaks up for team Spike, which is the only time someone directly references him to her but she doesn’t respond.
In Retreat, straight after Buffy has talked about just giving in, we have a scene with Riley and Twangel where there is a repeated play on Spike? being used.
Always Darkest seems particularly significant. “You can’t kill what’s inside you” is said to her straight away with reference to smoking in a crater and then Spike comes in. I had always read this as being about Spike and Angel equally but in context of the whole I honestly think it is about Spike and him not choosing to go to her. This is what she is bottling up, he chose Angel and she knows he doesn’t even like him.
She won’t even let Twangel talk about LA, she is furious at the mere mention of it.
Whilst they are in twilight, when Buffy starts to reject it for her family, when she starts to talk about wanting to save those on earth she is wearing a Union flag on her t-shirt and we know that their clothing changes had meaning.


The figure who appears at the end of 9.02 in Buffy's dream was an example of the comic intentionally teasing the audience - he was dressed just like Spike (Angel also dressed that way but just once, in Lie to Me when he goes to the vampire club with Xander and Willow), and when he said "my love", the fans must have been in a frenzy for a month. Buffy goes "My love! - He called me 'my love'" - until it turns out to be Ethan and she wants to puke. But there's some playing with "pet", "lamb" and "love" (Ethan says that "my love" is an expression, like "pet" - which is not true - "my love" is definitely romantic; but "love", which Spike says a lot, is just a British expression, like "pet". I was reminded of that in the 9.08 flashback, when drunk!Buffy says "Love?" and Spike replies "A figure of speech".)


But anyway, as a Spike-centric fan I can gladly watch my guy being a hero, it comes naturally to him and he hits it on the mark, finding his way without people (dogs or lions!) directing him like a puppet. I am still settled and happy with normalcy being explored this season but it would be good if, during her balancing of Slayer!Buffy with Human!Buffy if Buffy manages a little bit of an epiphany and notices that it isn’t Spike who is her dark place, he is effulgent and truly is the ‘wisest and bravest knight in all the land’, gotta love him.
He is. And that's a great and very important thing, not a bad thing as some people are making it out to be. I loved that line. She feels she is "the dark" (8.03) and Spike is her "dark place" where she can feel comfortable being who she is and tell him things she can't tell others ("You were the guy I told things I wasn't supposed to"). Spike not only reflected her darkness in the past, he has seen that darkness in her and wasn't afraid of it, and still loved her. That's why her connection to him is so important for her. To be really happy, she needs to accept herself, including those parts of herself that she's scared of - those parts that are not the "normal girl" living in a suburban dreamhouse. As that article said, Spike went from being a symbol of self-hate and inability to accept herself, to a symbol of self-love and acceptance. However, since Chosen she has obviously regressed.

Buffy: No, no, I can't go outside, I'm afraid of the dark!
Dream Xander's Head: Buffy, you are the dark.
Buffy: That's what I meant.
(8.03)

BuffySpike
02-06-12, 08:18 PM
what does Andrew say to Buffy about Spike?

TimeTravellingBunny
02-06-12, 08:52 PM
what does Andrew say to Buffy about Spike?
Andrew and Buffy are about to enter Simone's lair to confront her. (8.23 Predators and Prey)

Andrew: Can I just point out that I was just trying to do the right thing?

Buffy: Seriously? This seems like the time? When we're about to walk in here?

Andrew: We might not come out of this alive, and I want to make sure I've said everything I need to say to you. And now I have.
Wait, no. Now that I've met Angel, I have to say, Spike was so much edgier, you definitely traded up. I'm totally Team Spike.
Also, I know I'm in the minority, but I liked it when you cut your hair.
There. Now I've said everything.

BuffySpike
02-06-12, 10:16 PM
Andrew and Buffy are about to enter Simone's lair to confront her. (8.23 Predators and Prey)

Andrew: Can I just point out that I was just trying to do the right thing?

Buffy: Seriously? This seems like the time? When we're about to walk in here?

Andrew: We might not come out of this alive, and I want to make sure I've said everything I need to say to you. And now I have.
Wait, no. Now that I've met Angel, I have to say, Spike was so much edgier, you definitely traded up. I'm totally Team Spike.
Also, I know I'm in the minority, but I liked it when you cut your hair.
There. Now I've said everything.

Thank you

LOL thats so funny about the hair thing. Also Andrew is right:xd


also Im sorry to ask another question but could someone please tell me what Buffy said to Spike whilst drunk at the party when she was apparently "openly flirting with him"

No worries if peeps cant :)

Stoney
02-06-12, 11:51 PM
Well, that's the point of the season - but she was getting there with the "help" of Twilight (and not just Twilight) ...I was more bothered when she unceremoniously kicked a man out of his own house in Touched. We've seen on that occasion that Buffy's morals can waver when she's desperate and low.)

I suppose the jewel thievery was supposed to be as you say, it just doesn't work as even vaguely believable for me that she would have done that. The guy in Touched I always saw as her kind of trying to bluntly send him on his way so that he wasn't in the 'danger zone', for his good but was just not delicate about it.


Err, Spike isn't exactly known for blaming Buffy for shutting the Scoobies out.

Ha, no I meant there was no Spike around for the fans to blame, for those who always accuse him of putting a barrier up between Buffy and the Scoobs.


OK, this is a part I really don't get. What was "awful", selfish or heartless about it?

I felt that Buffy used Satsu knowing that it would mean more to her. They had the conversation about it only being the one night after they had slept together so we don't know whether Satsu would have chosen to do it anyway because it didn't happen that way around.


She didn't love Satsu, but she might have thought that she may eventually fall for her if she gave it a chance. People aren't always 100% sure about their sexuality, especially in the early 20s: one may think, how do I know if I'm not bisexual, if I don't try it? That's what "experimenting" is about - trying to see if something works for you or not. It turned out that it didn't.

OK, I can totally see that point and you may well be right, that just isn't how it read to me.


Why would she ever told Spike ILY if she didn't love him, and was so selfish and didn't care about him? And why would she act caustic and rude with him as she did in #36? That could only be explained through a mix of anger and denial.

I agree about her feelings towards Spike as illustrated in S8 personally, you know I do. I was just mooting that maybe some people who think that Buffy is uncaring towards Spike could feel that her behaviour with Satsu supports the idea that she would just use Spike without having any genuine depth of feeling. Not my personal view but I have difficulties with Buffy/Satsu as I've said.


As Sosa said, that's not true - she was going to tell him she had romantic feelings for him before she saw him with Dawn.

As I said to Sosa,

We assume she is going to go and tell him because of the guy talking about letting someone know you love him. I assume she would have told him. I wasn't being very eloquent, seems to be hitting me left, right and centre at the moment, I meant more in the sense of would it ever really have gone anywhere. She may have told him she had feelings for him but I don't think it would have ended up in a full and committed relationship, or if it had, not for very long. I think it would have been quite damaging to their friendship because of the motivations for it. Xander, I honestly feel, gets it exactly pegged and even if he hadn't been with Dawn he basically tells her it would not have reciprocated. As he said, if it was a couple of years ago, not months. :)


Satsu, Xander and Angel represent Buffy's failed attempts to form connections...

And in all those cases, she was going for people she felt sure were in love with her - even though she was wrong in Xander's case.

Interesting.


(Though in a way, it's good that she did tell him, because that served to close the book and disperse any illusions on Buffy's side that Xander was waiting for her after all these years.)

Agreed.


All right.. she definitely shouldn't have hit on him after she saw him kissing Dawn, but what "chest pressing"? :confused3: I don't know what you're talking about. Buffy realized that she had been selfish and deluded and wrong, and she and Xander hugged to confirm that they are still friends.

And when Dawn coughs to interrupt them...

Xander: Hey, Dawnie, we--
Buffy: Nothing! Friend hug! Because of sad. No subtle bosom-pressing in hug.


The only thing it supports is that the things she felt with Angel (so soon after getting rejected by Xander!) weren't, err, of the truest and realest nature, even if we disregard the glow, as some people want to do.

Actually I think she accepts the truth of what Xander is saying pretty easily but yeah, all that had passed went in Twangel's favour.


But there's some playing with "pet", "lamb" and "love" (Ethan says that "my love" is an expression, like "pet" - which is not true - "my love" is definitely romantic; but "love", which Spike says a lot, is just a British expression, like "pet". I was reminded of that in the 9.08 flashback, when drunk!Buffy says "Love?" and Spike replies "A figure of speech".)

They just made a callback to Spike for me when Ethan was saying them to her and her not wanting him to say it fell in line with that for me. I don't know anyone who uses love or pet as an expression outside of it being romantic but I accept it is feasible.


He is. And that's a great and very important thing, not a bad thing as some people are making it out to be. I loved that line. She feels she is "the dark" (8.03) and Spike is her "dark place" where she can feel comfortable being who she is and tell him things she can't tell others ("You were the guy I told things I wasn't supposed to"). Spike not only reflected her darkness in the past, he has seen that darkness in her and wasn't afraid of it, and still loved her. That's why her connection to him is so important for her. To be really happy, she needs to accept herself, including those parts of herself that she's scared of - those parts that are not the "normal girl" living in a suburban dreamhouse.

Totally agree with you here, she does need to do this. When I was saying that Spike isn't her dark place, Angel is, I was meaning in a different, literal sense that in actual fact the side of her that lets herself down now is the part of her that Angel accesses not the part of her that Spike occupies. In a literal 'dark-side' sense beyond what is a natural side of herself but the place where her negative desires and weaknesses really lie, there lies Angel.

cil_domney
03-06-12, 01:49 AM
I still see the optimism in the Spuffy explanation. They tear eachother down but begin to build their relationship into a better place, growing apart as people first yada yada.. I don't see it in the Bangel one, it just says they can never be happy together. Romeo and Juliet..yada yada. That may just be me looking through my Spuffy glasses though :xd

With this application of "Romeo & Juliet" that is so often used for the Buffy-Angel love relationship - I don't see the connection.

In the Romeo-Juliet love relationship it is not destiny or star crossed paths that keep the lovers apart - the fundamental reason that they cannot be together is because of family feuds and dogmatic teachings that people refuse to move beyond.

I think that the relationship of Buffy and Spike and the relationships between all the Scoobies, Giles and the COW dogma are much more reflective of Romeo & Juliet. Their early relationship and his with the Scoobs goes from one of separation from hatreds and ingrained ideas about Slayers, Vampires, humans and demons - Buffy has to follow the rules of the game and family history and hate vampires and kill vampires to protect humanity. Eventually Buffy and Spike learn how to go beyond the controlled set of rules that demand that they have to be Slayer Killer/Protector and Spike has to also learn how to change himself beyond the Killer of Slayers and Humans.

The theme, of Buffy and Angel in the Acathla Cycle is about lessons and rites of passage into full heroic status model is not about star crossed lovers. Buffy must learn and must accept completely her duty as protector/Slayer - and that she must accept the sacrifice of her own happiness if that is the price that must be paid. Spike in "Chosen" does the same. Angel had his own lessons and rites of passage trial - but I don't see any of his own trials having to do anything about destiny but they are also about fully accepting to do his duty and sacrifice himself to follow the path that he set for himself for redemption.

Romeo and Juliet tried to find a way of going against the family hatreds that kept them by illusion and running away and everything turned into a disaster. With Buffy and Spike, they can't try to run away from all the hatreds and contributings factors of their relationship - they have to live through everything that they do to each other and the demand made on them by their family and social groups. Season 7 is the phase when they both learn how to move beyond the family/social demands and make their own way - and Spike has his own hero rite of passage. Buffy also goes through another phase of learning how to be a heroic model when she gives the Slayer Powers to other people.

Unfortunately the giving over of Slayer Powers away from herself and Faith introduced some very complex issues beyond empowering the Potentials, but I am in the camp that Buffy's choice was one made with good intentions and needed given the information that she had.

Where I personally see a lot of good things that Spike brought to Buffy and the fight against Angel/Twangel/TwiAngel - I don't see one good thing that Angel brought into her life. I don't think we have yet be given all the information on the Whistler connection and this element he brought to Angel about the future destruction and the destruction to different timelines. So I am still waiting to see what that all turns out to be.

BuffySpike
03-06-12, 08:30 AM
^^

I just call it Romeo and Juliet because of the first love angst thing, everything is so over dramatic, tears, tantrums etc etc

Bangel is not the actual story of Romeo and Juliet but I draw the familiarity from the nature of the relationship and they way they behave.

It always felt so tragic watching Bangel just like watching Romeo and Juliet, its all going so well then it gets torn away. They cry, they whine, they are over dramatic.

where as to me Spuffy always feels more like Lois and Clark to me. Smallville and the comics. The banter, the fact they hated each other to start with and eventually love each other.

Stoney
03-06-12, 11:08 AM
It always felt so tragic watching Bangel just like watching Romeo and Juliet, its all going so well then it gets torn away. They cry, they whine, they are over dramatic.


Well, like Shakespeare, the writing/romance/characterisation got better as they went on!! The childish drama of R&J always irritated the hell out of me but give him 3 years and he was writing Much Ado with the contrast of the immaturity and angst of Claudio/Hero against the realism and snark of Benedict/Beatrice.

[B/B having been compared to Spuffy many times]

TimeTravellingBunny
03-06-12, 01:40 PM
They just made a callback to Spike for me when Ethan was saying them to her and her not wanting him to say it fell in line with that for me. I don't know anyone who uses love or pet as an expression outside of it being romantic but I accept it is feasible.

Some British fams have explained that "love" is a British informal expressions that doesn't carry any romantic implications, or even connotations of close relationships - it's like Texans say "hon", a guy could call that any woman he barely knows. I've heard it used that way in British films/TV shows, and dictionaries of slang say the same.

Dictionary of UK slang:
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/l.htm

love Noun. A friendly term of address. {Informal}

According to this dictionary, it can be both:

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/love_23#love_56
love
6. [singular] British used for talking to your husband, wife, girlfriend, etc.

Did that letter arrive, love?

a.
used by some people when talking to a woman whose name they do not know. Some women find this offensive

That’ll be three pounds, love.


As for pet:


http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/l.htm

pet Noun. A term of endearment. {Informal}

TimeTravellingBunny
03-06-12, 01:54 PM
With this application of "Romeo & Juliet" that is so often used for the Buffy-Angel love relationship - I don't see the connection.

Well, Joss has used the Romeo and Juliet comparison when calling Bangel "the classic kiddie romance" and also when he was recently asked which of Buffy's relationships he liked best:


JW: You know what, I liked Spike. With Angel it’s too “Romeo and Juliet”. Which means, as soon as it happens you’re bored. Riley, you know he was a well-adjusted person who loved her in a much, much healthier way than the other two guys. Nobody wants to see that. With Buffy and Spike, they had a real Beatrice and Benedick kind of relationship, in “Much Ado About Nothing”. I think with the wedding, she would have tried to do something fast, but he would have made it elaborate and done everything wrong. It would have been extraordinarily counter-intuitive, and awesome!

In other words, "Romeo and Juliet" is Joss's shorthand for a story about romantic love that's based on a separation and inability to be together because of circumstances, which becomes boring the moment those two actually get together. It's a relationship based on a romantic ideal and longing for the impossible - R&J's love never got tested since they died so young. (If they had lived, they might have fallen out of love, or had a horrible marriage, for all we know.) Joss has earlier used the "what if Romeo and Juliet lived" phrase as a shorthand for why he shipped Angel off to his own title, i.e. he didn't know what to do with them and thought they would be boring together. (IMO, they were boring in the 'happy scenes' I Will Remember You, that's when I got the confirmation that they really didn't have such great chemistry, which I always kind of felt despite shipping Bangels in seasons 1-3.) Buffy and Angel's relationship was only interesting in the moments of great angst, that's what their whole story is based on.

Whereas Beatrice & Benedick seem to be his shorthand for a couple whose dynamic is interesting in itself, which is why he prefers to write those.

Stoney
03-06-12, 04:17 PM
Some British fams have explained that "love" is a British informal expressions that doesn't carry any romantic implications, or even connotations of close relationships - it's like Texans say "hon", a guy could call that any woman he barely knows. I've heard it used that way in British films/TV shows, and dictionaries of slang say the same.

In my neck of the woods (and I am British) love and pet would only be used as terms of romantic endearment (which is probably why some would find it offensive, I suppose, used outside of that context). But I realise some people use love more commonly in other areas.

BuffySpike
06-06-12, 11:47 PM
Some British fams have explained that "love" is a British informal expressions that doesn't carry any romantic implications, or even connotations of close relationships - it's like Texans say "hon", a guy could call that any woman he barely knows. I've heard it used that way in British films/TV shows, and dictionaries of slang say the same.

Dictionary of UK slang:
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/l.htm

love Noun. A friendly term of address. {Informal}

According to this dictionary, it can be both:

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/love_23#love_56
love
6. [singular] British used for talking to your husband, wife, girlfriend, etc.

Did that letter arrive, love?

a.
used by some people when talking to a woman whose name they do not know. Some women find this offensive

That’ll be three pounds, love.


As for pet:


http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/l.htm

pet Noun. A term of endearment. {Informal}

Yes being British and female I have been called "Love" and "darlin" various times by men and women.

It does sometimes feel a bit intrusive though especially when its a complete stranger who says it to you.

EDITED just to add:


JW: You know what, I liked Spike. With Angel it’s too “Romeo and Juliet”. Which means, as soon as it happens you’re bored. Riley, you know he was a well-adjusted person who loved her in a much, much healthier way than the other two guys. Nobody wants to see that. With Buffy and Spike, they had a real Beatrice and Benedick kind of relationship, in “Much Ado About Nothing”. I think with the wedding, she would have tried to do something fast, but he would have made it elaborate and done everything wrong. It would have been extraordinarily counter-intuitive, and awesome!

those two lines are the best things to ever come out of Joss' mouth

ubi4soft
13-06-12, 07:09 PM
This pair is so damn powerful

http://amberinblunderland.blogspot.ro/2012/06/note-on-spike-and-buffy-in-buffy.html

Yet the poster ends with a question I often wonder myself

I ask myself this final question which I can't answer yet and that is, what do I want? Do I want Spike to be happy with Buffy or am I really craving for Spike to be happy?

*ps read the comments too

Stoney
13-06-12, 09:09 PM
This pair is so damn powerful

http://amberinblunderland.blogspot.ro/2012/06/note-on-spike-and-buffy-in-buffy.html

Yet the poster ends with a question I often wonder myself


*ps read the comments too

I want Spike to know what he wants and how his life can work whether or not Buffy is a part of his it. In this way they could have a functioning relationship where they add value to each other but he 'works' in his own right. So I suppose I want Spike to be happy and whilst he wants the girl I want him to get her, but only in a way that truly will fulfil him.

TimeTravellingBunny
13-06-12, 11:20 PM
This pair is so damn powerful

http://amberinblunderland.blogspot.ro/2012/06/note-on-spike-and-buffy-in-buffy.html

Yet the poster ends with a question I often wonder myself


*ps read the comments too

I want Spike to be happy. I want Buffy to be happy. But I also want the two of them to be together, whether they're happy or not. Does that make things complicated? Of course I'd want them to be happy together, but knowing Joss, that's unlikely to happen before the end of the story (same goes for Buffy being happy) and as a viewer/reader, seeing them together is just really interesting.

TimeTravellingBunny
13-06-12, 11:35 PM
I've just posted a lengthy post on the 9.10 discussion thread in reply to someone who asked about Chosen and the comics, but it's really more suitable to be posted here, so I'm reposting it.


So, Buffy doesn't actually love Spike, it was a lie in season 7? Or did she just fall out of love with him because they were apart for so long?

I hope its the latter because I remember Joss saying she really meant it when she said it.

And if she never did, i don't even know what the hell to say about season 7 anymore..


She just needs to figure out how she feels and what she wants now, as does Spike. Post S8 she has plenty to work through, it is better she does this and can then actually tell him what she feels and be sure of it. A lot of time has passed since Chosen, it is right and fair to them both that they don't enter into anything lightly and they take current stock. After everything Buffy has just been through Spike doesn't want to end up being used for comfort. Non of this belies their emotions in Chosen, they just need to figure out what the current situation is. Personally, I am sure she meant she loved him and it was true but that didn't necessarily mean a committed 'in love' romance moment as Francy says, and they are developed people since then too. We'll see how it pans out, last time he went away she wanted him back 'home' with her.
The way I saw season 7, Buffy was definitely in love with Spike in S7 - she had been falling in love with him for a long time, and the Hellmouth might have been the moment of clarity when she finally realized that. In any case, the flaming hands were one of the most romantic images I'm aware of, and Buffy's face in that scene contains one of the purest expressions of being in love that I've seen on screen. As seen in this avatar by lostboy (http://lostboy-lj.livejournal.com/), who kindly allowed me to snag it.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/boot_the_grime/avatars/emotionalorgasm_by_lostboy.gif

This moment in Hellmouth, however, wasn't about commitment of the two of them having a relationship (how could it be, when it happened when he was about to die?). That moment doesn't mean that Buffy had been ready to have a committed relationship with Spike - she didn't feel ready to have a committed relationship with anyone, for the time being, since she was aware that she had to grow as a person a lot. She wasn't even sure if she and Spike could work out as as couple in a regular day-to-day relationship. They've never actually tried it together. Buffy had one such relationship, with Riley, and that didn't end well. Maybe Holden was right and commitment really is scarier than "misery, heartbreak, sexual violence and possible death", when Buffy is concerned.

And it seems that Spike wasn't sure, either - if AtS season 5 is anything to go by; he wasn't sure if these big romantic moments can be followed up and translated into a regular day to day relationship. In season 9, he said he wanted such a relationship with Buffy, but it was clear later on that he's rather contemptuous of her current idea of what ideal life would be like.

Romantic love isn't the same as commitment; they may or may not overlap. Buffy's and Spike's relationship when we last saw them on the show perfectly fit the description of Romantic Love from the Triangular theory of love (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love): Intimacy + Passion, but no Commitment. (The ideal one is Consummate Love, which has all of the three.) For much of human history, Romantic Love on one side, and marriage & family life on the other, were two completely different concepts. Today we're used to thinking they are the same - but there are still lots of examples of people being in long term relationships or marrying without being in love, and even more examples of people staying in a marriage or in long-term relationships after they've stopped being in love with each other. And, on the other hand, there are lots of people who fall in love but aren't able to have a real relationship - lots of people don't even know how to make it work. There may even be this fear of able to sustain love, especially when you've had next to nothing in terms of experience in real relationships and making it work. Say you're in love - but will you still be when you argue about the toilet seat or disagree on where you want to live or clash over what to watch on TV? Will jealousy and insecurity start raising its ugly head? Will you start annoying each other and arguing in a not-funny and not-pleasant way until you become like George & Martha, or will you start boring each other and drifting apart until there's little passion or intimacy left? (For the record, I think Spike & Buffy would be in much more danger of the former than the latter.) Will you be like Buffy's parents, who argued all the time and didn't get along, for years, until they finally got divorced, or like Willow's parents who stayed together but didn't show much feeling and just "glared at each other".

The moment in the Hellmouth in Chosen was written and shot at the time when the episode was supposed to be the end of Buffy's journey, and that scene the end of Buffy/Spike journey. But in season 5 of AtS, Spike was wondering how to follow up on that - and I can see Joss wondering too, really, how do you follow up on that and develop things from there, if Death gets negated? How does Real Life relationship work after the big Romantic moment of love, heroism and effulgence? Buffy had trouble to continue living after getting brought back from her big Heroic moment and having to come down to Earth so to speak. Spike had some trouble with the same thing. We haven't really seen that period of adjustment for the Spuffy relationship.


Once Buffy's story continued in the comics, she had to be regressed, or at least Joss seems to think so, because we're not at the end of her story as we were supposed to be in season 7. The Buffy we see in the comics doesn't seem sure of anything anymore, especially not of herself. A lot of the time she doesn't seem to know what she wants or how she feels about anyone and anything - or is terrible at expressing it, but this time the comics, especially in season 9 with poorer writing (with due respect, neither Chambliss nor Allie are nearly as good at Whedon at layered writing) are not nearly as good as the show at conveying her feelings and development in a subtler way. Seasons 6 and 7 dismantled Buffy and then built her up again as someone more mature and more aware of herself. Season 8 and season 9 up to this point have all been about dismantling Buffy, and stripping her of everything and (almost) everyone - but the rebuilding part hasn't started yet. Maybe it's about to start. That should happen if season 9 has a point and if there's some decent storytelling left in BtVS comics.
----------------------

When it comes to Buffy's feelings in the comics, we first see her in season 8 one a half year after Chosen. Joss decided to not show the immediate aftermath of season 7 and how Buffy decided to start a Slayer Army, how she organized it, how she felt after Spike's death, how she found out he was back and how she felt then - so these things are the subject of speculation. I can speculate, based on the occasional hints in text (such as A Beautiful Sunset, Always Darkest, 8.36, 8.40, the IDW Spike series if canon), we know she believed he was dead for at least several months; that she then found out he was alive (according to the IDW comic, went 'busting doors' or however it was put, to find out where he was and how he was doing - details unknown), that he was in LA and didn't notify her of his resurrection; she probably knew he was with Angel (which explains Always Darkest) and she might possibly have known Harmony was there ("Blondie Bear" tease in 8.40). She certainly seemed to have some anger and resentment when she first saw him again in 8.36, and there was also the defensive "Sorry I haven't called"; which, if taken on face value, is odd, since I would say that it was on Spike to call her and tell her he was alive rather than letting her believe he was dust for several months.

Speculation /filling in the blanks: (i.e. I'm just giving my best guesses about the missing time and the things that the comics have been left mostly unexplored. Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to present these as facts or to claim this is the only way to read it. Just offering my .02). Now, we all have different interpretations due to our own personalities and experiences; so I'll just tell you how I'd probably act in some of those situations. If some guy ignored me and didn't call and I was hurt, I'd probably pretend that I didn't care and act like I'm the one blowing him off rather the other way round. (This mechanism of behavior is so familiar to me because it's just how I would behave; even in elementary school, when I had no experience in love of my own, a friend of mine who was already dating asked me for advice [funny, yes] when her boyfriend stood her up for a date; I told her what I would do: when we talked to each other again, I'd pretend that I didn't make it to the date myself and apologize for it. That way I would not allow him to think I was needy and that he had me in his pocket.) Now, back to Buffy post-Chosen. Coping with the death of a loved one is a terribly difficult thing; people do it in different ways. Some people fall apart and can't cope with it at all; some need to takes the time off and grieve; some make sure to busy themselves with work so they could go on. The finality of it is a terrible thing - how do you cope with the idea that you'll never see someone again? In my case, I tried to make myself busy with other things so I wouldn't have to think about it - I don't know how I'd have dealt with deaths of close people if I thought about it all the time. But the worst thing of all, for me, in any situation, is to think "what could have been". My usual defense mechanism even in the smallest things is Sour Grapes - say, if I miss a concert by a band I love, I can't stop eating myself up unless I manage to find some reason why it's better that way after all ("Ah, well it was inside rather than outdoors and it's really hot - the heat would've been terrible").

I'm not Buffy, but if I were - I'd probably have had all sorts of complicated feelings after Spike's death. I would probably want to think that he got what he yearned for and that he's finally at peace. I would want to think that he's in some better place now. Buffy felt proud of him, looked at him adoringly in the Hellmouth, and it was portrayed as a moment of sadness but also triumph and beauty. She might have wanted to cherish this beautiful image of him in her mind. (People tend to idealize the dead.) But there might have also a lot of pain, especially when she started to process the fact he wouldn't ever come back. She might have missed him a lot. She might have tried to occupy herself with work and try not to think about him (the Buffy of season 7 does seem to be the type). She might have pondered over his words (NYIDBTFSI) - that's certainly not what you expect to hear when you tell someone ILY, so it's gotta bit a bit of shock. She felt guilt for leaving him there (this is actually text, in Always Darkest), even if it was his choice. She might have felt guilt over a lot of things she had done or hadn't done, and at the same time, maybe there was some resentment - because he chose, after all, to have a hero's death (effulgent!) rather than to be with her. She might have had those nagging thoughts "what could have been"...and then tried her best to convince herself "But it would've never worked anyway. We would probably never have been happy together" and exaggerated all the reasons why a relationship between them couldn't have worked. (In his novel French Lieutenant's Woman, John Fowles proposed a theory that Thomas Hardy had an extreme case of Sour Grapes way of dealing with loss - he and his cousin were in love but couldn't be together due to some complicated family secrets issues, so they parted ways and married others, and later she died; according to Fowles, Jude the Obscure, which portrays a tragic relationship between the title character and his cousin Sue Bridehead, inspired by the author's own past, was his attempt to imagine just how horrible their lives would have turned out if they had stayed together and tried to make it despite poverty and society's disapproval.)

That's several months in which her feelings might have become different and very complicated while she was trying to move on. We know she didn't know he was alive until at least Damage. When she found out he was alive, she also knew he chose not to tell her - maybe also that he told Andrew not to tell her. I think the first and most obvious thought anyone would have is that this person doesn't want you in their life if they're even hiding their existence for you. I imagine I'd feel angry and hurt. Dead people can be idealized, but when they turn out to be alive and not wanting anything to do with you? And you spent months thinking he was dead, if he was in a better place, grieving and all, while he's out there doing perfectly OK? What a jerk. Maybe your relationship wasn't all that. That beautiful last moment together, was that a lie, a temporary feeling of being overwhelmed. Maybe he needed you to believe in him so he could become the great hero and champion (crazy studly!) but didn't want to be with you; maybe he really just wanted the unattainable and wasn't that interested once you seem to give him the ILY you had denied for so long; maybe he thought that you're lacking, that your love or what you called love wasn't good enough, that you aren't able to give him what he needs. Maybe he realized that there was something wrong with you. - And again, that last part is actually text: Buffy feared in season 8 (A Beautiful Sunset, Always Darkest) that there was something wrong with her or around her, that she just hurt people and got them killed, and that everyone realized that sooner and later and left her.

In any case, if he doesn't want anything to do with you anymore? Fine, then.

And that's why I can so easily imagine Buffy's feelings for Spike changing and getting suppressed and her being a lot less sure about it all.

A writer who appreciates emotional complexity could do a lot with that. The current writers, however, especially Allie, aren't particularly good with emotional complexity, which means that writing a character like Buffy, especially about her feelings for Spike, may be way too difficult a task.

BuffySpike
14-06-12, 01:41 AM
That was a great read TTB and it explains a lot, thanks so much because I was so confused about what the heck was going on with them after Chosen.

I agree totally about the burning hands and her facial expressions. Even the score used here is beautiful and correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that it is actually the opening theme tune, slowed down with an orchestral epic twist.

I also notice the reference to yin and yang here, She wears white, he wears black and they join like yin and yang when their souls meet. I personally think that was intentional because with mise en scene you think about everything in the scene and how it comes across on camera.

The scene itself was the most epic love scene I have ever seen on BtVS. The entire way it was handled with the score, the facial expressions, the iconic imagary it is without a question of a doubt THE defining love story of the entire show

Everything between these two on screen when it comes to finally coming together is epic and earth shattering. Each milestone moment in their relationship was accompanied by cinematic imagery and sound. This was never present in Bangel and most certainly not Riley/buffy.

The very way the pair of them kiss is nothing like the other two, when Spuffy kiss on screen you can see that they need one another like air (or blood) in Spike's case. This intensity and need for one another is not there with anyone else she has kissed. Compare any other kiss on the show with that kiss near the stairs in Tabula Rasa...that kiss spoke a thousand words.

Also TTB when you say this process was a long one for her, where abouts would you say it started? I personally think it was Intervention but actual love for him came possibly in Showtime, her facial expression there is of love. Even if she doesn't realise yet.

But one thing she said interests me, when she said "Why does everyone in this house think I'm still in love with Spike?" That actually went right over my head until recently. She loved him at some point before possibly in season 6?????

Stoney
14-06-12, 01:50 AM
One of the tragedies of S6 was that Buffy and Spike were really connecting and forging a genuinely deep, loving and supportive friendship before the destructive sexual relationship started and pulled everything down. If you remove the sex from the mix, Buffy was already getting there is S6 but the soulless status was always going to be a deal breaker for her, even if part of her had fallen for him even then.

Reddygirl
14-06-12, 03:13 AM
Ubi, thanks for posting that essay, it was terrific.

BuffySpike
14-06-12, 10:38 AM
One of the tragedies of S6 was that Buffy and Spike were really connecting and forging a genuinely deep, loving and supportive friendship before the destructive sexual relationship started and pulled everything down. If you remove the sex from the mix, Buffy was already getting there is S6 but the soulless status was always going to be a deal breaker for her, even if part of her had fallen for him even then.

Yeh I noticed that, There was definitely an emotional connection there before the sexual one. The sex destroyed the foundations of what was beginning to emerge. (I suppose the house coming down when they first had sex could be symbolic of their fragile foundations they had previously built being torn down with this one act) The sex was based mainly on her physical attraction to him, not the emotional one and she gave into that too early and so that overshadowed the emotional connection and stopped it dead in its tracks because she had sex with an "evil soulless thing". But had she developed her emotional relationship a bit more then maybe things would have been different.

I think you're right though the no Soul thing would always be the barrier that would stop her allowing herself to actually be in love with him. (the door scene) with the song "shall we try to get along..." The second that barrier was taken away look what started to develop. She fell in love and allowed herself to in the end.

I also recall a deleted scene where they are both actually on the same side of the door in season 7 and he now places his hand on hers, with no barrier (soul is there now)

Just to add the two kisses they shared before she started to sleep with him were so passionate that it indicated feelings there and not just physical IMO, especially the second one.

Also the whole breaking up with him and incidents after this like him bringing a date to the wedding, sleeping with Anya and leaving town would indicate that she had very strong emotional feelings for him but most certainly did not want to admit this.

She also appeared to have cried at least once over it when spike said "did you cry?" (at the wedding) she was shocked and read it wrong and assumed he meant over him, the reaction would indicate that she indeed had cried over him.

Also one that I would like some people's opinions on. Just before the horrible AR moment. She gets angry at Spike when she believes he was going to use a spell on her, then he tells her it was because he wanted his love for her to go away.

Anyone notice her face here?.

she doesn't want his love for her to go away it seems. IMO If she REALLY did, her reaction to that line would have been totally different and she may have even told him to do it.

Moscow Watcher
06-08-12, 07:12 PM
Hey! *waves*

Today I enjoyed an amazing new Spuffy vid: With My Whole Heart by BlairWaldorfQueenB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Y8Q1rG5fY

Song by Mumford and Sons
Can you lie next to her
And give her your heart, your heart
As well as your body
And can you lie next to her
And confess your love, your love
As well as your folly

Stoney
06-08-12, 09:42 PM
It always surprises me how many Spuffy vids use the scene from Who Are You.

"Helloooooo... :wave: Yeah, that aint Buffy, it's Faith." :xd

Its Anita
07-08-12, 09:06 AM
It always surprises me how many Spuffy vids use the scene from Who Are You.

"Helloooooo... :wave: Yeah, that aint Buffy, it's Faith." :xd

Shhhhhhh it's Buffy and she's all over Spike!! :heart:

BuffySpike
07-08-12, 11:11 AM
It always surprises me how many Spuffy vids use the scene from Who Are You.

"Helloooooo... :wave: Yeah, that aint Buffy, it's Faith." :xd

I feel the one from Superstar is very underrated..

That was really Buffy but she didn't have her usual defences up due to a spell and she was actually quite affected by Spike's closeness. Was quite a revealing moment IMO

I mean come on man, she moved her head into his hand and she didnt even snap out of it until Jonathan made her jump LOL :rotf:

http://th50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/boot_the_grime/Buffy/th_tumblr_lnugq40Lah1qaimf2o1_500.gif

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z412/smells_corrupt/BtVS/enemies/tumblr_lgoa35fOGD1qgbabho1_500.gif

Its Anita
07-08-12, 12:28 PM
I feel the one from Superstar is very underrated..
That was really Buffy but she didn't have her usual defences up due to a spell and she was actually quite affected by Spike's closeness. Was quite a revealing moment IMO
I mean come on man, she moved her head into his hand and she didnt even snap out of it until Jonathan made her jump LOL :rotf:


I think people forget about it because it's so short. I know i do. Superstar is not really one of my top episodes so i don't watch it often.
But yeah i think it shows an attraction to Spike early on, but her heads wrestling with the whole 'no its wrong!' idea before she can even stop to contemplate whether she finds him attractive, or has some sort of feelings.
Her defenses weren't where they normally are in that episode, because Jonathan essentially was 'The Slayer,' he was the one in charge and calling the shots. So Buffy was able to stand back and not have to worry about things as much as she normally would have. So I wonder how far their encounter would have gone if Jonathan didn't interrupt? Something we will never know :cry2:

Moscow Watcher
07-08-12, 01:49 PM
Back in season 4 SMG was lobbying Spuffy hard and used every oppportunity to convey her idea to Joss :)

In Something Blue script, in the scene where Buffy sits in Spike's lap, there's only the dialogue. All the body language is courtesy of SMG - when she puts her finger in JM's mouth, when she bites his ear, everything is Sarah's contribution.

Here's the same. She enhances the scene with palpable tension.

BuffySpike
07-08-12, 07:24 PM
Oh and their love theme tune? You cant get more epically endgame than that im sorry. Its not the puppy love baby piano of Bangel, nor the innocence of Biley. It is a spectacular orchestral score complete with choir singing its an OTP score IMO. An excellent blend of light and dark which fits perfectly with their relationship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAyvQFCdNbQ

MikeB
16-08-12, 05:12 AM
TimeTravellingBunny http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=629949&postcount=137


The thing you seem to be constantly missing and not understanding is that Buffy was enjoying the rough sex, the "things" Spike was doing to her - and she was also hated herself for it and was conflicted about it - but not because of the sex itself, but because Spike was a soulless demon, and "everything I hate, everything I'm supposed to be against". Unless something is absolute canon, it is entirely inappropriate and unreasonable to use such a phrase.

* Buffy was ‘using’ Spike as her emotional punching bag. As Spike said in “Never Leave Me” (7.09), her life sucked and she took it out on him. This wasn’t much different than her in “Blood Ties” (5.13) going to beat on him because of Dawn finding out that she’s the Key except that in BtVS S6 Buffy and Spike were lovers, best friends, confidants, etc. and she was still using Spike as her emotional punching bag.

* I’ve always considered that Buffy at the end of “Dead Things” (6.13) either owned to or just realized that she was in love with Spike (“You always hurt the one you love.”) and possibly that she didn’t want to be, that Spike seemed to be using her for sex (“I’ve never been with such an animal.” “That’s all it is to you, isn’t it? Just another body”.), and that Spike possibly didn’t actually love her and she was upset about that.


You seem to believe that Buffy wanted Spike to be "gentle", but there's nothing to suggest that. There’s “As You Were” (6.15) when Buffy grumpily states, “He isn’t getting any gentler.”


Buffy discovered a lot about herself and her kinky side in S6, including that she could be incredibly attracted to a soulless vampire or find their beating the shit out of each other an arousing foreplay Buffy was attracted to Spike because he can kill her. After “Smashed” (6.09), they are never shown to use ‘fighting’ as foreplay.


and it's quite possible that the risk of death was also arousing, especially in her S6 state when she wasn't yet over her death wish and needed some strong feelings to move her from her stupor. At the end of “Gone” (6.11), Buffy tells Willow that she no longer wants to die.


She also admits in CWDP that she didn't want to be loved, she wanted to be punished and degraded. Buffy said that after Spike left her for 3.5-7 months, came back with a soul, and Buffy wasn’t sure where their relationship even stood. Buffy literally hopped on Riley when he returned: it seems obvious that she did want to be loved.

As far as the ‘taking her over’ thing: that likely had to do with the sex. Spike it seems was able to ‘have his way with her’. Moreover, it could have to do with Spike being the most important person to her in BtVS S6.


She breaks down in Dead Things when she realizes he really does love her - although in "his sick, soulless way". That makes no sense. She knew this – at latest – in “Intervention” (5.18). Buffy knows that Spike got a soul and that he at least partly did that for her and partly in that hope that having done that that they could be together again. But in “CWDP” (7.07), Buffy doesn’t know where their relationship stands or if Spike even wants her anymore.

The most important thing to take away from her therapy session with Holden Webster is that she almost exclusively focuses on her relationship with Spike and that she lists Spike as the only relationship she’s had with a vampire.


Up to that point she was seeing him as a projection of monstruosity and her own darkness and her dark sexual desires, rather than a person who could be hurt. He wanted a full relationship, while she didn't see him as a person she could respect or really love and was ashamed of their relationship, keeping him as her dirty secret. I don’t know where you get any of this. She kept them a secret because neither believed that her friends would accept them being in a relationship. Buffy knows that Spike can be hurt. The projection thing is rather speculative at-best. One may as well said she was projecting these things onto Angel as well.


And another interesting line from CWDP is when Buffy says she hasn't been guarding herself in relationships, risking "misery, heartbreak, sexual violence and possible death", Holden says she's guarding herself from commitment. She saw her relationship with Spike was a risk in all sorts of way, except as a risk of commitment, something she didn't think could ever happen with him. This is beyond silly. Buffy was the most committed to Spike. With Angel, depending on when one thinks that they were in a relationship, she dated other guys: Owen, Tom, Ford, Scott, etc.

With Riley, she was already involved in a little flirting thing with Ben.

With Spike, even in BtVS S7 she wasn’t responding to Wood’s flirting and even when she went out on a date with Wood, she had before told Giles that her relationship with Spike wasn’t physical anymore and she was clearly unhappy and upset about that. And in BtVS S6 she was fully committed to him. And in BtVS S8 it was probably over two years after “Chosen” (7.22) before she even had sex with someone else. Other than being celibate forever, I don’t know how Buffy could have been more committed to Spike.


she wasn't willing to discuss their relationship with him, She was willing. What she didn’t do was even say that they were boyfriend and girlfriend.


to admit any feeling for him, He wanted her to admit that she was in love with him. She already admitted to being attracted to him. Already before “Tabula Rasa” (6.08) she showed she cared about him. And in “Dead Things” (6.13) she admits to liking him.


or to tell her friends about her relationship with him, Did he want that?


why he was frustrated and unsatisfied. He was more unsatisfied in BtVS S5. I don’t know, ultimately, what he wanted from Buffy, but his last long-term relationship had him on a ‘honeymoon’ for 100 years.

BuffySpike
16-08-12, 04:30 PM
MikeB spike did not have a soul in Intervention...she realises that there is something more to him though I think.

eh, i dont think Buffy wanted to love Spike in season 6 when she was actually jumping his bones because it scared her. Her feelings were getting stronger towards the end and so she pulled away from the physical relationship before it could turn into love it seems, thats why it was "killing her" it was "unhealthy". She really did not want to love a soulless vampire. It didn't mean that she wasn't falling though. Because in Hells Bells you can see the feelings are still there and throughout the rest of the season, even after she tells him to move on in Entropy then she tries to reign him back again the second he does "move on" and even in the bathroom you can see she does not want Spike's love for her to go away when he says he wanted a spell to make the feelings stop. Even after that AR she still has feelings for him.

I debate wether she loved him in the end of season 6 or not because in season 7 she actually jumps to the conclusion that " why does everyone in this house think i'm still in love with Spike?" which would indicate that she did love him at the end of season 6 then the awkwardness as she realises she just let something major slip out.

I'll just say in season 7 she basically no longer had any excuse not to allow herself to love him and look how quickly she did.

BuffySpike
16-08-12, 04:58 PM
Can I just say that his little moment here is so suggestive, its the moment where Riley and Buffy are starting to truly shift apart, he gets involved with the initiative again and its a little nod to who her new ally will be and eventually her lover. Its like they get caught cheating in that last frame LOL

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8tqzz0y8I1r97gm6o1_r1_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8tqzz0y8I1r97gm6o2_r1_250.gif
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8tqzz0y8I1r97gm6o3_r1_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8tqzz0y8I1r97gm6o4_r1_250.gif

EDIT - oh crap sorry double post

Stoney
16-08-12, 06:32 PM
Cor, he looks totally yummy there. Hmm. Is that from Listening to Fear? Didn't Spike come sneaking out the basement just before they started fighting the critter? Ha!

Anyhoo :D... When that happens if you cut your second post and edit it into your first, then copy the lot before you delete your original post you can then repaste it as a new post in its entirety which will throw it back up as a new message for other posters to see. :)

BuffySpike
16-08-12, 07:38 PM
Cor, he looks totally yummy there. Hmm. Is that from Listening to Fear? Didn't Spike come sneaking out the basement just before they started fighting the critter? Ha!

Anyhoo :D... When that happens if you cut your second post and edit it into your first, then copy the lot before you delete your original post you can then repaste it as a new post in its entirety which will throw it back up as a new message for other posters to see. :)

Ok cheers.

Yes it was when he had photos of her, and she realised but then obviously forgot because of the weird critter.

Also, UST you could cut with a knife here:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8rnxyJc8y1r2ptbgo4_250.gif


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8rnxyJc8y1r2ptbgo5_250.gif

sueworld
25-08-12, 11:12 AM
Nice little Spuffy video over here...

http://tv-fanvids.livejournal.com/77828.html?view=14596#t14596

Please comment if you liked it. :)

ubi4soft
25-08-12, 12:31 PM
Nice little Spuffy video over here...

http://tv-fanvids.livejournal.com/77828.html?view=14596#t14596

Please comment if you liked it. :)
You just made me cry like an idiot.

Oh God I love this fandom

sueworld
25-08-12, 12:50 PM
Yes, it really does bang home how complex and rich that pairing/story was. I think after the comics many seem to forget that.

Remember to leave feedback though. A fandom doesn't survive well in a vacuum. :)

BuffySpike
06-09-12, 03:02 AM
DARN TOOTIN!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9wag7VtaS1rpzqkio1_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9wag7VtaS1rpzqkio2_250.gif
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9wag7VtaS1rpzqkio3_250.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9wag7VtaS1rpzqkio4_250.gif
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9wag7VtaS1rpzqkio5_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9wag7VtaS1rpzqkio6_250.gif

Moscow Watcher
06-09-12, 10:21 AM
I think I remember that interview. She gave it to a British channel (BBC? Sky1?) when season six was about to air in UK.

TimeTravellingBunny
06-09-12, 11:33 AM
I think I remember that interview. She gave it to a British channel (BBC? Sky1?) when season six was about to air in UK.
Was that during or after season 6 aired in the US? I remember reading at least one interview she gave during season 6 in which she was much more negative about Spuffy, saying it's just sex and what she had with Angel was love.

Moscow Watcher
06-09-12, 11:52 AM
Was that during or after season 6 aired in the US? I remember reading at least one interview she gave during season 6 in which she was much more negative about Spuffy, saying it's just sex and what she had with Angel was love.

I wish I knew. I discovered that interview in 2003 (I think) and I bent over backwards to download it, but it was a streamed video, which meant that one could only watch it on the site. It wasn't b/w, it was in color.

I hope that sooner or later some Buffy fan will have an access to that interview and will upload it on YouTube.

BuffySpike
06-09-12, 12:16 PM
Was that during or after season 6 aired in the US? I remember reading at least one interview she gave during season 6 in which she was much more negative about Spuffy, saying it's just sex and what she had with Angel was love.

By the time season 6 came along, thats how she had to play it so I'm guessing thats how she began to see it eventually. Thing is if it was before season 6 aired over here that mens it must have been shot already so, hmm I wonder why her tone changed.

I think I actually remember seeing it when it aired.

TimeTravellingBunny
06-09-12, 12:46 PM
By the time season 6 came along, thats how she had to play it so I'm guessing thats how she began to see it eventually. Thing is if it was before season 6 aired over here that mens it must have been shot already so, hmm I wonder why her tone changed.

I think I actually remember seeing it when it aired.
I don't think it's how she had to play it. None of the writers said anything like that. Marti Noxon said in her S6 interviews that there was affection on both sides between Buffy and Spike, and she also said that Buffy/Angel was about the idealization of the first love that was never tested. SMG and JM were the only ones connected to the show who made statements like that one by SMG. In fact, in that interview, she was asked if Buffy's relationship with Spike was all just "great 20-something sex" or if there is love there, and she said "I think it's just great 20-something sex, what she had with Angel was love" (I'm quoting by memory). She made it seem it was her opinion, not something she was told to play. And I think it was because of how much she disliked the storyline, the Spuffy relationship in S6 and Buffy's behavior in S6 in general, which she made no secret of.

I don't know what she thought during S7 and after the show ended, I'd like to know that. I haven't seen any of her statements of the later date. In the Paley fest a couple of years ago, she brought up and was glad that the Smashed scene won TV Guide's Sexiest TV Scene; when she was asked "Angel or Spike?" she didn't answer. (Michelle Trachtenberg instead said something like "He's here" meaning James, who was at the panel; some people misheard and wrongly reported that SMG had said that, but she was silent.)

sueworld
06-09-12, 01:11 PM
Watched 'Him' today, and after events in the comics imo never has this scene been more of guiding statemnt to me as to how Buffy saw her 'relationship' with Spike.


DAWN
Last night you said that you weren't
helping Spike out of pity. So what
is it?

BUFFY
You ask a good question.

Buffy keeps eating.

DAWN
Is sitting there eating egg salad
some kind of zen non-answer?
BUFFY
(struggling)
I just... The truth is - I don't
know what I feel. I think I can't
stand him, but then sometimes...

DAWN
You love him?

BUFFY
No. I feel for him.



I think she does still feel for him, but It's not love and I suspect that what the writers are pushing us to do too, which is a tad depressing.

BuffySpike
06-09-12, 01:11 PM
TTB. Lots of people take her dislike of the storyline as a dislike of Spuffy in general but I dont think thats the case, do you?

Im hoping it was just her dislike of the way it was handled not the actual paring itself.

Sueworld did you just watch that on Syfy?

Also you can take that quote but then look at the other quote from First Date "Why does everyone in this house think i'm still in love with Spike?" They purposely changed that line before filming.

I think the writers are simply expressing her confused mind state. What she feels for Spike confuses her right up until touched and chosen.

Him was very early on in the season, things started to change after Showtime towards him.

sueworld
06-09-12, 01:37 PM
Yes I saw it on SyFy today. :)

Maybe confused, but when/If you take the comics into consideration then I move more into the view she cares deeply, but not love.

BuffySpike
06-09-12, 03:36 PM
"and dawn, well she's not really good for anything" (cut to dawn being all useless)

That is always the part that has me cracking up the hardest with that episode

In terms of the comics, we shall see. I think she's hiding more than she's letting on when it comes to Spike. She has never found it easy to tell him she loves him.

TimeTravellingBunny
06-09-12, 06:15 PM
Watched 'Him' today, and after events in the comics imo never has this scene been more of guiding statemnt to me as to how Buffy saw her 'relationship' with Spike.

Yes, it's how she saw her relationship (what's up with the quotation marks?) with Spike at the time. Dawn's question was excellent: "Feel what, exactly?" It's most likely not a coincidence that this conversation took place in an episode whose only purpose, apart from being a silly comedy episode, was to contrast immature infatuation with real love. The question, what is love, was at the forefront of seasons 6 and 7, and Buffy needed the entire season 7 to sort out and understand her feelings for Spike, since her feelings for him had been so complicated and nothing like her ideas of what love is or should be. That's what makes their love story so compelling, that it wasn't about falling in love 'at first sight' or teenage romance, but a mature, complex story that actually posed those questions, what does it mean being in love or loving?

I have a thing for stories in which the protagonist falls in love slowly over a long period of time and doesn't realize for a long time that what they're feeling is love, really compelling. The Hunger Games trilogy is another one of those. Gone with the Wind is another one. EDIT: And how could I forget Marguerite Duras' heartbreaking L'Amant.



TTB. Lots of people take her dislike of the storyline as a dislike of Spuffy in general but I dont think thats the case, do you?

Im hoping it was just her dislike of the way it was handled not the actual paring itself.
No, she was in favor of the pairing in general (in season 4 she was all for it), but she disliked the season 6 storyline and she admitted to not understanding it and finding it hard to relate to Buffy that season. Joss said it's because Sarah never went through such a dark period in her own life, she always had it all together.

I don't know how she felt about season 7 and how she feels about the entire Spuffy storyline now. Back in season 6, nobody except the writers knew where they were going with it. A lot of the anger in the fandom probably happened because the fans thought that, if the relationship doesn't work out in season 6, it never will; they didn't know that Spike would get his soul back. Hayes posted some interviews with Marti Noxon from season 6, and at least one she says that it's not a good relationship and a good match now - though maybe it can work out later, under different circumstances. That's an obvious hint, in retrospect, what they were going to do with the relationship, but she couldn't say that in interviews at the time, obviously. The fandom had no clue what they were planning so they were going "oh noes they hate Spuffy". The actors don't seem to know much more either - James wasn't even told at the end of season 6 that Spike was trying to get his soul back.



Also you can take that quote but then look at the other quote from First Date "Why does everyone in this house think i'm still in love with Spike?" They purposely changed that line before filming.

I think the writers are simply expressing her confused mind state. What she feels for Spike confuses her right up until touched and chosen.

Him was very early on in the season, things started to change after Showtime towards him.
Yes, I think the placement of CWDP/Sleeper/Never Leave Me/Showtime after her statement in Selfless that she will never love anyone as much as she loved Angel, and her statement in Him that she "feels" for Spike but doesn't love him works really well: all throughout season 6 and early on in season 7, she was very confused because she had strong feelings for Spike but didn't know how to define them, so she never picked any word for those feelings, except "I have feelings for you" (Seeing Red) and "I feel for him" (Him); she just kept insisting that this can't be "love". The next storyarc had her trying to come to terms with their relationship in S6, but then having to go through shock and doubt and have her trust in him tested (from the end of CWDP) and then worry for his life and fight to save him, and it made her reevaluate what she felt for him. I don't know if she's thinking at that point that she might be in love with him; she doesn't address that question and say that she loves him (or that he's in her heart) until Chosen, but she doesn't say that she doesn't love him, so maybe it's a period where she's not sure and slowly coming to the realization. But for me, there's no doubt that it's love in her eyes at the end of Showtime.

She does have interesting slips of the tongue a couple of times which indicate that she isn't so sure that she's not in love with him - the line from First Date that you mention; and let's not forget the repetition of "You always hurt the one you love" in Dead Things, where she's drawing the link between herself and Warren, when it's her beating of Spike that helped her realize Warren was the one who killed Katrina.

I love this meta-as-fanfic (as she described it herself) by Selena (an excellent writer of meta and fics that don't strain credulity): First Sights, Last Sights (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1040655/1/First-Sights-Last-Sights), written at the start of season 7, in 2nd person but from Buffy's POV, as her memories and thoughts about Spike through the seasons (up till around Beneath You). I think this in particular nails it:


In any case, it produces feelings in you alright, desire and shame and hate, for yourself because you know very well you're doing this for all the wrong reasons, and for him, because he is what he is. And sometimes, rarely, but still sometimes, there's an odd moment of joy and freedom. He can still make you smile as well as he can make you angry. But no matter whether it's in his crypt or later, when you arrive at your home, the guilt always comes back. You're not sixteen anymore, or falling in love for the first time. You're not falling in love at all. You don't know what to call it, the ever more suffocating web of emotions between you, but it's not love. You cannot allow it to be. You know how it will end, sooner or later. The chip will fail, because if the interlude with the Initiative has taught you one thing, it's that technology ultimately always loses against the Hellmouth. The chip will fail, and he will kill again, secretly perhaps, in order not to disturb you, but he will kill, because he genuinely can't understand why he shouldn't, and then you will have to stake him. There are no excuses for you, none at all, and yet you keep coming back to him, again and again.


"and dawn, well she's not really good for anything" (cut to dawn being all useless)

That is always the part that has me cracking up the hardest with that episode

In terms of the comics, we shall see. I think she's hiding more than she's letting on when it comes to Spike. She has never found it easy to tell him she loves him.
She's never found it easy to tell anyone she loved them, especially not romantically - and it got all the harder as years went on. (It's even brought up by her in Intervention, when she makes an effort to tell ILY to Giles and Dawn and freaks Dawn out.) But even as a teenage girl, she wasn't exactly the type who's saying "I love you, baby" in every conversation. If you find the time to read my reviews (there's a link in my sig) that I've been doing while rewatching BtVS - I've been counting the times Buffy says ILY to anyone during the show; it's really not that often even in season 2 or 3, and nearly every time she says "I love you" - whether it's romantically to Angel, or to her friends or Dawn - it's when there's some life and death situation or something otherwise dramatic. For instance, she first tells Angel she loves him when he elicits it from her in Lie to Me, and she's not finding it easy (SMG plays it the exact same way she did the ILY in Chosen, which is interesting since some fans claim she didn't sound convincing in Chosen, but nobody said the same about Lie to Me); then it's when he dumps her/blows her off in Innocence, then when she's about to run him through with the sword and send him to hell; then when she's trying to prevent him from committing suicide. In seasons 4-7, she worries about not having shown her mom how much she loved her, her inability to tell ILY to Riley is a problem, she makes an extra effort to tell Dawn and Giles ILY in Intervention, she tells all the Scoobies she loves them in The Gift, and she tells Dawn she loves her before she jumps into the portal. Other times it's after fight, as when she and Xander are making up in Seeing Red after their less than pleasant conversation before ("You know I love you, don't you?") And those are just the friendly/familial ones. She doesn't tell anyone "I love you" romantically in seasons 4-7 until Chosen (the closest she gets is telling Angel that she loves Riley ["I've got someone in my life, that I love"], when she's arguing with him in Sanctuary) but a direct statement to the person doesn't come that easy.

BuffySpike
07-09-12, 01:32 AM
TTB, I agree with everything you have written

Im a sucker for those kinds of relationships on screen too. I also love it when hate turns to love between two characters

As was said in Smallville once by Lana

Clark (about Lois) - "She's bossy, she's rude....I cant stand her!"

Lana - "The best ones always start out that way"

so on point which is unusual because Smallville kind of sucked.

EDIT

An awesome music video which has just surfaced yesterday. Im not usually into fan made videos but this one I saw on Tumblr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcbVhiCFuQ8

ubi4soft
10-09-12, 04:09 AM
Check out the latest issue of Watcher Junior - the papers are also available to download as *.pdf
http://www.watcherjunior.tv/08/

Sex, Love and Sadomasochism: Buffy/Spike as a Queer Relationship
Watcher Junior Volume VI: Issue 2, September 2012 - by Erin Lavoie SUNY Postdam, USA
http://www.watcherjunior.tv/08/lavoie.php

Tennyoelf
10-09-12, 04:28 AM
Interesting article and very much just a different way of saying that spuffy has the elemnets of being a gender reversed relationship. Of course it is much more complicated as the articles says because even though we have elements of gender role reversal we still have elements of the norm and abnorm.

Spuffy is deliciously complex.

BuffySpike
10-09-12, 12:01 PM
it was a gender reversal in season 6 maybe, but not season 7, she was mothering him there.

TimeTravellingBunny
10-09-12, 02:40 PM
Interesting article and very much just a different way of saying that spuffy has the elemnets of being a gender reversed relationship. Of course it is much more complicated as the articles says because even though we have elements of gender role reversal we still have elements of the norm and abnorm.

Spuffy is deliciously complex.
The article doesn't say that it's a "gender reversed relationship". It says it's a "queer" relationship in that it's transgressive, in that both Buffy and Spike are outcast characters who transcend traditional gender norms and have elements of "otherness", and because of the sadomasochistic elements to their relationship which put it outside of the hetero-normative boundaries.


As characters they both occupy the space of the other: Spike accepts his role as the other and becomes the openly queer character, while Buffy struggles with her identity the way a closeted gay would struggle with feelings they cannot accept. Buffy’s slow acceptance of her identity allows her to move from a space of self-hated and fear to a space of self-acceptance, which allows her to admit her feelings for Spike rather than punishing herself for those feelings. All of the elements of their relationship from their position as other, to the sadomasochism, to Buffy’s self-hatred and eventual acceptance play into the reading of their relationship as a queer relationship.

I remember reading long time ago someone's post that says Buffy in S6 was in a way like a "closeted, self-loathing gay person in a relationship with an flamboyant out partner". It certainly came off that way in Dead Things and Older and Far Away, where they even had Tara draw parallels between Buffy and herself as a gay person, in the original script for DT and then in OAFA (when she asks Buffy is she's ready to come out).

Stoney
10-09-12, 04:04 PM
Spuffy is deliciously complex.

This is indeed true and is one of the main reasons I love it so much because it is so multi-layered. :D

Moscow Watcher
25-09-12, 08:13 PM
*waves*

Joss Whedon: "Buffy and Spike.... just gold".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rA66xoJrHx8#t=77s

(I'm sorry for a too-short post, but I have to share this to counter all the pessimism I see in the fandom).

zianna
25-09-12, 08:43 PM
*waves*

Joss Whedon: "Buffy and Spike.... just gold".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rA66xoJrHx8#t=77s

(I'm sorry for a too-short post, but I have to share this to counter all the pessimism I see in the fandom).

It just makes you wonder what was the funny part between Buffy and Spike so far this season :blink:

Stoney
25-09-12, 09:16 PM
I think Joss was saying that Buffy and Spike around each other is fun (not funny). I assume he was talking from a writer's perspective. I have loved seeing them together again this season anyway, but the storyline hasn't been 'fun'. I hold judgement on S9 Spuffy until the whole picture is there for hindsight viewing because I think it will very much pull together at the end of the season.

Moscow Watcher
25-09-12, 09:29 PM
I think Joss wrote a very funny Buffy/Spike interaction in issue 1. I'd love to see more Joss-penned Spuffy scenes. Joss? Do you hear me? :)

Seriously, I love that Joss accents the "funny" part in his interview.

zianna
25-09-12, 09:39 PM
I think Joss wrote a very funny Buffy/Spike interaction in issue 1. I'd love to see more Joss-penned Spuffy scenes. Joss? Do you hear me? :)

Seriously, I love that Joss accents the "funny" part in his interview.

Then we should be glad we had them together for 9 issues to read a funny part between them in #1 :lol:

BuffySpike
26-09-12, 06:13 PM
I cant remember if I posted this here or not but its pretty awesome, it has Spike's "You'll never be friends" speech which IMO always matched more with their relationship than it did Bangel. It also uses a score from Buffy but I cant remember where its from exactly.If anyone knows please let me know what episode its from. I think its an earlier season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1_0L41KTmA

Stoney
26-09-12, 08:32 PM
God that's depressing. :p

Emmie
26-09-12, 09:10 PM
I think Joss wrote a very funny Buffy/Spike interaction in issue 1. I'd love to see more Joss-penned Spuffy scenes. Joss? Do you hear me? :)

Seriously, I love that Joss accents the "funny" part in his interview.

Yep, I love how Spike and Buffy's standard M.O. of miscommunication is so perfectly delivered with "actually it said pratty." So much talking past each other and being "shirty", yanno.

BuffySpike
26-09-12, 10:21 PM
God that's depressing. :p

It is depressing but I really think its true to their relationship in season 6 :xd

THE WISH thats where the score is from.

TimeTravellingBunny
27-09-12, 02:23 AM
I cant remember if I posted this here or not but its pretty awesome, it has Spike's "You'll never be friends" speech which IMO always matched more with their relationship than it did Bangel. It also uses a score from Buffy but I cant remember where its from exactly.If anyone knows please let me know what episode its from. I think its an earlier season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1_0L41KTmA

Oh god what a beautiful video. Their season 6 relationship in a nutshell. I adore that track from The Wish.

Reddygirl
27-09-12, 02:46 AM
Moscow, I can't access the Joss clip. Is this something new?

I remain pretty Polly about Spuffy. There is still so much more that can be done with their story that it's hard to believe it will be dropped.

Moscow Watcher
27-09-12, 03:48 PM
Reddy, try the link to the clip from the very beginning. The Spuffy bit is at 1.17.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rA66xoJrHx8#t

(Every day I click YouTube links with trepidation - Russian parliament wants to block the whole YouTube to protect themselves from opposition.)

Miss Kitty
29-09-12, 09:07 AM
http://i31.servimg.com/u/f31/12/91/94/25/blend-10.jpg

School Hard aired 15 years ago :)

Moscow Watcher
29-09-12, 09:54 AM
Thank you for the reminder, MissKitty!

Look what I found in my archive on hard drive:


Spike and Dru, of Buffy
Entertainment Weekly
On October 31, 1997; James Marsters and Juliet Landau did an interview with
Entertainment Weekly using their alter egos,
Spike and Drusilla. The following is a transcript of that chat.
Forget About Dharma and Greg. This fall's hippest TV couple is Buffy the Vampire
Slayer's coolest and cruelest new
bloodsuckers, British bad boy Spike and his spacey consort, Drusilla (next
appearing in the Oct. 27 episode). While we love
the human actors behind them James Marsters and Juliet Landau the pair have so
few previous credits (Marsters guested on
CBS' Maloney Landau had a bit part in Ed Wood with her dad, Martin) we figured a
chat with their stylin' vampire alter egos
would provide a little more, er, bite.

EW- Who were you in previous lives?
Dru- I was a lady. I had ribbons and servants and all sorts of wonderful
friends. Later on I ate them all.
Spike- I don't like to talk about it. I was human. That's embarrassing enough.
EW- How old are you?
Dru- I'm 6 years old today. Daddy is bringing me sweetmeats from the shop
because he loves me, and I will have a new doll.
Spike-Dru, I think she means now, love.(to EW) She gets distracted. Dru's
secretive about her age I gotta be 15O by now.
EW- How did you meet?
Dru- I made my little Spike ... didn't I, love?
Spike- She did. Pulled me right off the street. The moment I saw my Dru, I knew
I'd love her 'til I died. Which I did about
three minutes later.
EW- What skills do you bring to your profession?
Spike- I'm very good at gouging. Eyes mostly. You don't see a lot of good
gougers lately it's pretty well a lost art.
EW- Do you go to movies? If so, what genre do you favor?
Spike- I like the real horrifying, can't-look-it's-too-awful kind. You know,
like On Golden Pond. Katharine Hepburn saying
"You're my knight in shining armor"I had to hide behind my seat!
EW- Spike, you have a rather punk fashion sense. Where do you get your clothes?
Spike- I wear what I find. Robbing your victims means never having to do
laundry.
Dru- Sometimes I hear whispers in my ear; and I dream that I'll bathe in the
moon.
Spike- That's nice, Dru. Try to stay with us.
EW- Spike, you've made some disparaging remarks about Anne Rice - did you read
Interview With the Vampire?
Spike- Didn't read it, but we liked the flick. What was all the rumpus about
Tommy Cruise as a vampire? He was a lot better
than Gary I-have-crossed-oceans-of -time-to be-with-you Oldman. Now, that flick
was a wash. There's none of us vampires
that poncey.
EW- What music do you prefer? Are you big Portishead fans?
Spike- Portishead? They are so depressing. Live a little, people! Me, I like the
Butthole Surfers anything where people use
chain saws as an instrument.
EW- What's up with Dru's doll collection?
Dru- I've always had my dollies. They're my friends, and I punish them.
EW- Do you collect anything, Spike?
Spike- It'll sound corny, but I'd have to say I collect memories. A long,
interesting life with happy memories is better than any
possession. I remember one of my favorite times, me and Dru were slaughtering
this orphanage...
EW- I'm sorry, we're out of time.

Reading this, you see how actors' personalities helped to shape their characters.

Stoney
29-09-12, 10:24 AM
Huh, that's just weird. :)

I'm sure a lot of that stuff is based on background they give the actors to give them a sense of character. I am amused by the notion that Spike may have had a penchant for killing people of the right height/build who wore black to scavenge their clothes rather than just nicking them, a bit ridiculous. Anyway, it was fun/interesting to see as much from the marketing pov as a fan's, thanks. :D

BuffySpike
29-09-12, 11:53 AM
Wow School Hard aired when I was 10. I never used to like Spike back then, he confused me until season 5 lol. When I watched seasons 2 again long after the show had finished. I understood everything about him and could even see how James was playing that dance floor scene with Sarah. Mixing wanting to kiss her with wanting to kill her.

Stoney
12-10-12, 11:12 PM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/11/the-good-wife-ice-cream-shocker-tv-s-13-dirtiest-sex-scenes-video.html

'Smashed' Spuffy gets into the 13 dirtiest sex scenes. Mmmmmm.

Reddygirl
13-10-12, 02:36 AM
I check out the Daily Beast every day but missed this! Thanks for linking.

Francy
13-10-12, 08:03 AM
That's great, but to be honest I am a little tired of Spuffy getting into lists and being given recognition only when it comes to the sex. There have been exceptions, like the recent Greatest Duo competition, but in general whenever they are taken in consideration by the media it's mostly because of the "hotness" of their bringing-down-the-house sex.

Beyond tired of that. There's more than that to their relationship, the focus on that aspect diminishes it (and many average viewers/non shippers already label Spuffy as "just sex" or "Buffy being depressed and using Spike to feel"). Spuffy didn't end with season 6!

/morning rant.

Stoney
13-10-12, 08:35 AM
I check out the Daily Beast every day but missed this! Thanks for linking.

Nay problem chuck. It was linked through JMs facebook page. :)


That's great, but to be honest I am a little tired of Spuffy getting into lists and being given recognition only when it comes to the sex. There have been exceptions, like the recent Greatest Duo competition, but in general whenever they are taken in consideration by the media it's mostly because of the "hotness" of their bringing-down-the-house sex.

Beyond tired of that. There's more than that to their relationship, the focus on that aspect diminishes it (and many average viewers/non shippers already label Spuffy as "just sex" or "Buffy being depressed and using Spike to feel"). Spuffy didn't end with season 6!

/morning rant.

Ach, I understand where you're coming from but I just like seeing them pop up in any poll simply for how great it is that sooo many years on BtVS gets acknowledged. As a fan who appreciates all aspects of Spuffy I have no issues with what is acknowledged because my view is full and rounded about their relationship, sex and all. People that see them as less are not fans of the coupling or haven't watched the show and there isn't much you can do about either. That their onscreen chemistry/dynamic is so strong and so unique is always something to celebrate whether it focusses on the sex or not I reckon.

Anyway, surely this is actually just reflective of what people are interested in seeing polls on (the smutty beggars!!!). :D They got really far on in the duos poll too so it isn't like that side is ignored or not appreciated when the opportunity arises to vote on it. Are you aware of polls that they don't get into? If so, it is quite often possible to put nominations in when polls first start up and we can try to right the wrong and get them into all the others if they are not included. :)

TimeTravellingBunny
13-10-12, 02:32 PM
That's great, but to be honest I am a little tired of Spuffy getting into lists and being given recognition only when it comes to the sex. There have been exceptions, like the recent Greatest Duo competition, but in general whenever they are taken in consideration by the media it's mostly because of the "hotness" of their bringing-down-the-house sex.

But isn't the description in the article great?

"It’s David and Maddie with more martial arts. And destruction. And a vampire."

I'm sure Joss would love the comparison to Moonlightning (except that Spuffy only got more interesting once they did have sex). He's compared Spuffy to Beatrice and Benedick. They really are, at the basic level, the classic snarky/antagonistic couple who show their attraction and love through aggression - Beatrice and Benedick, David and Maddie, Sam and Diane, Scarlet and Rhett, Veronica and Logan - only theirs is much more literal and destructive.

As for the polls, they're always beating and/or doing better than Bangel in every possible online poll. The only times Bangel gets selected is when the EW writers are making selections rather than the fans.

BuffySpike
13-10-12, 10:37 PM
who are EW writers?

Gemini9857
13-10-12, 10:53 PM
who are EW writers?
The Entertainment Weekly magazine, I'm assuming. It's usually abbreviated as EW.

Stoney
15-10-12, 05:16 PM
Do we know whether Spike/Angel ever found out that Buffy never dated The Immortal?? I can't remember.

I don't know why I thought about this today but the whole Immortal/TGIQ thing did also lay another nail in the coffin for Spike believing in how Buffy felt about him. If he believed her to have moved on to a relationship with The Immortal (who I don't think was supposed to be 'good' and is soulless) and was openly dating him that must have been a punch to the gut when she denied her feelings for him for so long, was secretive/withdrawn about them and, when he was without a soul, wouldn't be with him because he was a disgusting demon etc etc. If she was happy to just start openly dating another non-souled vamp it must have been hard to believe she cared for him when he was never good enough pre-soul.

BuffySpike
17-10-12, 01:37 AM
Damn Stoney that has made me feel even worse for Spike. In many ways he is more tortured than I have ever seen Angel. He never really gets the respect he deserves from other people. Even after he has saved the world like he did in Chosen.

Also something interesting I just read on a different forum. The tasting of Buffy's blood and the difference in the reactions from Angel and Spike

Its interesting how the second Angel tasted her blood he couldn't stop until she was almost dead.

The instant Spike tasted Buffy's blood as a sleeper monster, it brought him back to being a man and he stopped. Buffy's blood actually brought him back, very interesting.

Stoney
17-10-12, 08:12 AM
In all fairness to Angel he was in demon survival mode and the instinct to feed and survive was incredibly high. He did also manage to not kill her despite being in that state.

TimeTravellingBunny
17-10-12, 10:48 AM
Do we know whether Spike/Angel ever found out that Buffy never dated The Immortal?? I can't remember.

I don't know why I thought about this today but the whole Immortal/TGIQ thing did also lay another nail in the coffin for Spike believing in how Buffy felt about him. If he believed her to have moved on to a relationship with The Immortal (who I don't think was supposed to be 'good' and is soulless) and was openly dating him that must have been a punch to the gut when she denied her feelings for him for so long, was secretive/withdrawn about them and, when he was without a soul, wouldn't be with him because he was a disgusting demon etc etc. If she was happy to just start openly dating another non-souled vamp it must have been hard to believe she cared for him when he was never good enough pre-soul.
I'm pretty sure they both learned eventually that they were fooled in TGIQ and that Spike (and probably Angel, too) know that Buffy had in fact never been in Rome, but in Scotland instead. It's just not important enough to mention in a comic - and they probably don't even want to bring it up again, having dealt with it once and for all in the very first issue of the comics. Retconing that stupid episode was the best thing the comics ever did.

(I don't think the Immortal is a vampire, but I don't know what the heck he is, apart from the most ridiculous Gary Stu ever... and I don't care.)

Stoney
17-10-12, 11:19 AM
I'm pretty sure they both learned eventually that they were fooled in TGIQ and that Spike (and probably Angel, too) know that Buffy had in fact never been in Rome, but in Scotland instead. It's just not important enough to mention in a comic - and they probably don't even want to bring it up again, having dealt with it once and for all in the very first issue of the comics. Retconing that stupid episode was the best thing the comics ever did.

(I don't think the Immortal is a vampire, but I don't know what the heck he is, apart from the most ridiculous Gary Stu ever... and I don't care.)

I don't expect it will come back up, I just couldn't remember if we were ever told they knew or if we just assume they do now. The Immortal takes vague to a new level - he may or may not be a vamp, he may or may not be evil - they really did avoid any actual details. Anyway, unless Spike knows otherwise the Immortal may(!) not be souled and then the point stands on how Spike could have felt when he believed she was happily having a visible relationship with him.

I didn't remember how much of a non character he really was. I'm sure none of those 'may or may nots' will ever be addressed and really would we want to waste any more time on him?! In fact, I'm now feeling disgruntled that my thoughts ever drifted into wasting time/space on him in the first place. :lol:

And I completely agree that the retcon of TGIQ was much needed.

Stoney
31-10-12, 01:54 PM
Happy Spuffy Halloween (http://www.flickr.com/photos/joy_disaster/58117461/)

Moscow Watcher
18-11-12, 03:47 PM
Tomorrow, November, 19 a new round of Seasonal Spuffy starts!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Misc2/SeasonalSpuffy2012.png

http://seasonal-spuffy.dreamwidth.org/

Stoney
18-11-12, 04:40 PM
Please forgive the fandom newbie, what is seasonal spuffy? I think I've seen that around fanfic? :confused3:

Moscow Watcher
18-11-12, 04:44 PM
Please forgive the fandom newbie, what is seasonal spuffy? I think I've seen that around fanfic? :confused3:

It's a community dedicated to seasonal celebrations of all things Spuffy. Spuffy seasons are held twice a year - in spring and fall. It started on LJ in 2005 and now continues on Dreamwidth

Here's the link to the community's archives

http://seasonal-spuffy.livejournal.com/2005/

It features stories, fanart, videos, fanmixes, jigsaw puzzles and other Spuffy-relates stuff. Here's the link to tags to navigate in the archives

http://seasonal-spuffy.livejournal.com/tag/

Hope you'll enjoy! :)

MikeB
22-01-13, 04:30 AM
All caught up

Responses to post #29-140; #142 and after:

I’m going to try to refrain from discussing Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Riley. I’m not going to discuss Buffy/Xander as that never happened.

* Shooting scripts aren’t canon. Only what is on the DVDs and the canonical comics is canon.

________

* It’s canon that Buffy in “Chosen” (7.22) was in love with Spike.

* I consider that Buffy since “Afterlife” (6.03) – at latest – has been in love with Spike.

* I consider that Buffy’s been ‘into’ Spike since “School Hard” (2.03) and that’s the reason she didn’t dust him.

* If Spike hadn’t decided to die, Buffy would have been with him after “Chosen” and would have continued to stay with him unless he broke up with her.

In the whole Cookie Dough speech, Buffy makes it clear that she’d only be with Angel if things don’t work out with Spike or other guys she may be with. It’s essentially a nice way of her saying she’d “maybe some day, maybe never” ‘settle for’ Angel if things don’t work out with Spike or other guys she’d try to have long-term relationships with.

* Buffy was intending to die with Spike in the Hellmouth, but he got her to leave.

________________

* Spike’s been ‘into’ Buffy since the Bronze Scene in “School Hard” (2.03) but he was far more in love with Drusilla at the time.

* If Spike hadn’t been chipped, he would have killed Buffy.

* Given Spike had been attracted to Willow and would have sired her in “The Initiative” (4.07) if she wanted to be sired, Spike may have sired Buffy in BtVS S2, BtVS S4.

* In “Crush” (5.14), Spike chooses a slight chance with Buffy over being with Drusilla. But what if Dru had showed up earlier?

If Dru were open to it, Spike would have probably sired Buffy in BtVS S2. While in South America, Dru makes it clear to Spike that she doesn’t want Spike thinking about Buffy. While it’s notable that he doesn’t try to kill Buffy in “Lovers Walk” (3.08); if he hadn’t been chipped, would he not kill her in BtVS S4? Or would he kill her to prove to Dru that he loves Dru and not Buffy? What about BtVS S5? At the end of “Out of My Mind” (5.04), he finally owns to being in love with Buffy. Then in “Fool For Love” (5.07), her merely insulting him prompts him to want to kill her. So, it’s murky.

________________

* Spike didn’t go back to Buffy because he knew she still had feelings for Angel and he doesn’t want to share Buffy’s heart with anyone.

* If it’s canon, in the IDW Spike miniseries he makes out with Dru for perhaps minutes even though he knows she had been sleeping with the guy currently trying to kill him. Spike had been away from Buffy for years. And even though he knows she was “controlled” into having sex with Angel, he never ‘makes a move’ to be with her in BtVS S8 or in any time afterward so far (on 9.17).

________________

* Buffy in “Wrecked” (6.10) had been dressing and trying to leave and had been saying things, “This is the end of this freak show.” Spike ‘gave back’ by saying that “I knew. I knew the only thing better than killing a Slayer would be f-”. Spike didn’t actually have sex with Buffy just because he’s wondered what sex with a Slayer would be like. But she had just emotionally hurt him: by trying to leave, by telling him that only Angel got her hot (an obvious lie), and that Spike was merely “convenient”.

* Buffy did not treat Spike worse than he treated her. Spike had been trying kill her for years, even in BtVS S5 tried to kill her; in “Once More With Feeling” (6.07) he tells her to stop being near him unless she finally wants to ‘put out’, in “Smashed” (6.09) he fights with her, etc.

________________

* Something isn’t a retcon just because some people didn’t see the subtext. Spike was in love – subconsciously or else – with Buffy in BtVS S2. It’s simply that he was more in love with Drusilla and Buffy was currently with Angel.

________________

* Drusilla’s love for Spike is the fullest and most complete of any in the Buffyverse. Buffy love for Spike, however, is deeper: This is why Spike, in “Touched” (7.20), felt closer to Buffy than he had to anyone – maybe barring his mother – before.

________________

* “Seeing Red” (6.19). Spike wanted Buffy to admit that she’s in love with him. He seems to become ‘possessed’ by needing to ‘have her’. The attempted rape still doesn’t make much sense to me. Spike was possibly drunk. He’s in love with Buffy and wants to be with her but he should have known that in her current emotional state that there was no way she wanted to have sex with him. And during the AR, Buffy was pleading and about crying.

________________

* Spike believed Buffy was in love with him. He’s believed this since sometime in BtVS S6. In “Just Rewards” (A 5.02), he wanted to immediately go be with Buffy. He doesn’t go back to Buffy in AtS s5 because he knows she still has feelings for Angel and if Angel is Shanshued Buffy may prefer to be with a human Angel than a vampire Spike.

________________

* Up until Spike seeing that Buffy may want to live a suburban life – Spike in an AtS s5 episode called suburbia a form of hell – and may want children , the only thing keeping Spike from being with Buffy is his feeling she still has feelings for Angel.

________________

* For “As You Were” (6.15), Dawn was inside the house (and apparently Willow was as well) and neither knew that Buffy was with Spike. It’s ambiguous whether Spike had had sex with Buffy in her bed before, but that’s why they had the Tree Scene sex.


* In-verse, Buffy ‘broke up’ with Spike and literally blew up their ‘love nest’ because Spike was the Doctor and he’s obviously still evil. But that ‘breakup’ was obviously only as serious as one of her ‘breakups’ with Angel in BtVS S1-3. Buffy till the end of the Season acted as if they were somehow still in a relationship and she always referred to their relationship in the present tense.

________________

* For whatever reason, in BtVS S6, Buffy specifically wanted to be with Spike. And the same is true in BtVS S7. Even her kissing Angel in “Chosen” (7.22): (1) she considered that there was a good chance she could die in the battle and (2) Spike had just been in bed with Faith and possibly would have had sex with Faith if Buffy didn’t interrupt when she did.

________________

* Buffy chose to be with Spike instead of Angel in “Chosen” (7.22) and in BtVS S8. It’s highly unlikely – control and all – that Angel would have been able to have sex with her if Spike had been there with her.

________________

* In BtVS S6, being with Spike ended Buffy’s suicidal thoughts and it’s not as if she was better off from post-“As You Were” (6.15) till the end of “Grave” (6.22). And she obviously developed a friendship with Clem because she however often checked in to see if Spike was back.

________________

* Buffy would kill Spike to prevent him from killing her, but most times she simply lets him go when he’s no longer immediately going to kill her. She staked him in “Harsh Light of Day” (4.03) when it was about certain that he had the Gem of Amarra and wouldn’t die from that staking. And she left Drusilla and Spike in the burning church but never actually made sure that they were dust.

* Spike, however, would have killed her in “School Hard” (2.03) if Joyce hadn’t interfered. He would have killed her (or sired her) in “Lie to Me” (2.07) had she not been able to dust Drusilla. He would have killed her or sired her in “Halloween” (2.07) if the spell wasn’t reversed. He would have killed her in “What’s My Line” (2.09-10?). He would have killed her in “Surprise” (2.13). He would have killed her or sired her in “Harsh Light of Day” (4.03). With his deal with Adam, he would have allowed the entire Scooby Gang die if that meant his chip would be removed. In “Out of My Mind” (5.04), he would have killed her or sired her if the chip had been removed. He would have killed her in “Fool For Love” (5.07) if she wasn’t crying and distraught when he came upon her with his double-barrel shotgun. It’s possible he would have killed her or sired her in “Smashed” (6.09) if she hadn’t decided to have sex with him.

________________

* I’m not sure the ‘who wears the pants in the relationship’ thing is that relevant to the Buffy/Spike relationship. In BtVS S6, Buffy limited them to being lovers, best friends, and confidants (in terms of the extent of their romantic relationship), but both thought that her friends wouldn’t have approved of the relationship and would have tried to get Buffy to break up with Spike. In BtVS S7, Buffy puts Spike’s interests over the Scoobies’ and Dawn’s and the Potentials’ interests combined. She kissed Angel and did the Cookie Dough speech and Spike died instead of being with her and stayed away from her for years. They haven’t really had a relationship since “Chosen” (7.22) because Spike had been away from her for years and keeps leaving her for extended periods. We still don’t’ know how and when Buffy found out Spike’s alive and we still don’t know what from IDW is canon.

________________

* They could have been nicer to each other in BtVS S6, but overall, given the circumstances, their relationship wasn’t exactly unhealthy. Buffy was suicidal and being with Spike made her want to live. And she wasn’t ‘better off’ after she ‘broke up’ with him in “As You Were” (6.15). She’s doing better in “Lessons” (7.01) but we see chances for Buffy/Xander or Buffy/Wood go to zero percent when she sees Spike again. For his part, Spike in BtVS6 felt betrayed by the Willow group and he stopped patrolling. If Buffy hadn’t gotten with him, he may have left Sunnydale.

________________

* Buffy, at-latest, at the end of “Dead Things” (6.13) realized and/or owned that she was in love with Spike.

________________

* After the anger over the “Crush” (5.14) stuff died down, which is likely before “Intervention” (5.18), none of the Scoobies despised Spike. Joyce never did either. Not wanting Buffy in a relationship with Spike is not the same as despising him.

________________

* It’s very clear that Buffy/Spike had the kind of sex that Spike wanted to have. This is something that Buffy bemoaned about in “Dead Things” (6.13), “As You Were” (6.15), and “Conversations With Dead People” (7.07).

________________

* Buffy: “I love you.”
Spike: “No you don’t, but thanks for saying it.”

On the surface, Spike decided that he didn’t want Buffy dying with him. He had wanted to be in Heaven with Buffy; and this would have been the perfect opportunity, but he had seen her kissing Angel and he may have heard the Cookie Dough speech and he doesn’t want to be with a Buffy that still has feelings for Angel. So, on the surface, he ‘rejects’ her and tells her to go away while he dies. And it’s telling that in “Just Rewards” (A 5.02), Spike’s not even sure if Buffy made it out alive.

On a deeper level, Spike is really “William the Bloody” and that includes everything from human William Pratt the bloody awful poet to William the Bloody the notorious vampire that tortured people with railroad spikes and slaughtered an entire orphanage, etc. etc. Buffy seems to only love “Spike”, which is merely the persona that William put on. From Spike’s perspective, unlike Drusilla, Buffy would have never gone for the William Pratt from 1880. Spike in “Never Leave Me” (7.09) tells Buffy that she doesn’t know what he’s capable of. And this is true, she never met William the Bloody. She likely doesn’t even know that Drusilla ate babies and toddlers and Spike was perfectly fine with that and for all we know he also ate babies and toddlers.

It’s also worth noting that Buffy had only called him “William” when being annoyed with him “No Place Like Home” (5.05) and when she’s ‘breaking up’ with him in “As You Were” (6.15). She only calls him “Spike” in BtVS S7 even though she knows he got his soul back.

Anyway, pre-“Get it Done” (7.15), Spike is obviously being more William-ish and Buffy’s not okay with it. She tells him that she wants “the Spike’s that dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill me when we first met.” And right before that, she was mocking his weeping, his getting ‘beat up’, and his not being a good fighter anymore since he’d gotten his soul. And remember she’s distant with him after finding out he got his soul back until she finds out that he’d been killing people. In “Lessons” (7.01) and “Beneath You” (7.02), she’s concerned about him. Then for the next 4 episodes she only goes to him for information. In “Him” (7.06), she left him at Xander’s place. In short, Buffy seems to love “Spike”, not “William”.

Spike is used to the person he’s with being completely in love with him and in love with all him, “meaning William, Spike, and William the Bloody.” And it’s possible that of the 3-4 long term relationships he’s had, Buffy’s loved him the least.

________________

* “Who Are You?” (4.16) is important because Spike thought that was Buffy and, of course, the flirting in “Superstar” (4.17) happened the episode after this.

________________

* “Him” (7.06)


DAWN
You love him?

BUFFY
No. I feel for him. At this time, Buffy had not fully ‘gotten past’ the attempted rape. But, also, Buffy had never told anyone that she loved Spike.




TimeTravellingBunny


I thought shipper threads were places where anti-shippers were not supposed to come only to post 100% negative things about it... Really? A full debate can’t happen if only fans of a ‘ship can post in the thread. As long as it’s reasonable criticism, I don’t see anything wrong with posting negative things about Buffy/Spike in this thread.

________________________________________________


I didn't think [the AR] was OOC and I don't see why them having one nice moment in Hell's Bells changes that, considering how wrong things go in Normal Again/Entropy/Seeing Red. Huh? I don’t even know to what you’re referring.

________________________________________________


the real estate is really cheap in Sunnydale No, it’s not. It’s comparatively not as expensive as it otherwise would be if the murder rate and such were lower.

________________________________________________


We know she didn't know he was alive until at least Damage. Well, Andrew lied about Buffy dating the Immortal. So, he’s not exactly trustworthy. Anyway, Buffy may have found out Spike’s alive and not told Andrew.



sueworld


I was watching Hells Bells today and one thing always bothered me, as we know Whedon came in and rewrote the conversation that Buffy had with Spike in this. The tone of the original being far more aggressive and argumentative then what they ended up going with, where both parties seem at least be trying to at like adults with each other.

Now considering where the story line was obviously heading why do this? Did they want to double blind us by bring the whole AR thing is seemingly out of the blue or what? As you can tell that scenes always bothered me really. I hadn’t heard that the original scene was “far more aggressive and argumentative then what they ended up going with.” In-verse, Buffy’s ‘breakup’ with Spike was like one of her many ‘breakups’ with Angel in BtVS S1-3. She wasn’t actually ‘breaking up’ with him and she still considered that they were in a relationship. She seems ‘shocked and confused’ that Spike brought a date to the Xander/Anya wedding. To Buffy, not being willing to have sex with him in the instant future didn’t mean that they were no longer in a relationship. But Spike considered they were broken up. And was the AR scene already written when Joss did the rewrite for the Buffy/Spike “Hells Bells” scene?



Stoney


Spike's utter belief that he could love her and be what she could want/need without his soul is his undoing in that he forgot, for a moment, that he was a demon and it took control of him. First off, he was in love with her before he got his soul back. Secondly, soulless Spike was what Buffy wanted and needed.


In Hell's Bells we see Spike the man trying to be around Buffy, missing her and uncertain what to do. Spike brought a Goth girl to the Xander/Anya wedding, made sure to inform Dawn that that girl was, “his date, his date for the wedding” – meaning that he was going to have sex with her –, and proceeded to make out with that girl in the middle of the room. Spike was certain what to do. His plan was to parade around with another girl, make out with her, and see if Buffy got at all jealous. He tried to do a similar thing with the Aprilbot.


We see Buffy watching Xander/Anya and wishing to see their happy ending feeling tender towards Spike as she acknowledges how he may be feeling and puts out a tender response to him as she is now in the security of no longer being in the relationship, at that point she is closer to where she was with Spike when she was confiding in him about heaven. Buffy is simply trying to put on a ‘brave face’. She’s clearly shocked, confused, and hurt that Spike could be with another girl. She considered that they were still in a relationship.


Both of them, to me, are trying to skirt around an unobtainable relationship, one that does require souls all round. It obviously was obtainable since they had been in a relationship already.

________________________________________________

* Satsu knew that Buffy wasn’t in love with her and Satsu was happy to be able to have sex with Buffy.


There is her reference to ‘that sex’ [in 8.01], a pretty safe assumption that this is about Spike, but it denies his importance to her and just looks at the physical itch she can’t scratch. Buffy is thinking about Dawn having had sex and that leads to Buffy thinking about Buffy having not had sex since Spike. We still don’t know when Buffy found out that Spike is no longer dust in the Hellmouth.


Andrew speaks up for team Spike, which is the only time someone directly references him to her but she doesn’t respond. Again, we still don’t know when she found out that Spike is no longer dust in the Hellmouth.


She rejects what Angel is offering and returns to earth to save her friends/family and, unknowingly, she returns to Spike. Her last two ‘Slayer outfits’ consisted of her literally wrapping herself in Spike (wearing Nikki Wood’s coat) and wearing a white shirt with a Union Jack on it. Also, again, we still don’t know when she found out that Spike is no longer dust in the Hellmouth. Anyway, I reason that Spike is a factor in her ‘rejecting Angel’ and returning to Earth.


But she doesn’t feel the romance towards Spike. Will she ever? Until she stops denying him she will never open herself up fully to the possibilities. She may end up realising that she can have a realistic relationship with someone who stands by her side and fights with her to support her You seem to about ignore or dismiss that Spike was away from her for years. In BtVS S9, Buffy seems surprised that Spike is still in love with her. Then he leaves her, again.


if Buffy can have lived S8 and never come to see the difference of Angel commanding her and Spike supporting her there is no hope there. Buffy does see that difference.



Emmie


So if defining being in love means full commitment and what's more, truly intimate knowledge of the person and a completely open heart--then she doesn't have that with Angel. She's in love with her idea of him, not with who he really is. And that's key. I call Buffy's love for Angel a fantasy love. This isn’t a Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Riley thread. But she referred to those two as being her boyfriend. She’s never referred to Spike as her boyfriend.


If I'm defining Buffy's state of being in love as an open heart, a wealth of intimacy and passion, I think the moment that most clearly demonstrates this is in "Chosen" when she says "I love you." This is the first time Buffy is totally present when she first professes her love, declaring her heart of her own volition, to a man in the entirety of the series. Um, would it have been better for Buffy/Angel if Buffy first told Angel she loved him in “Becoming Part II” (2.22) right before she sent him to hell?



BuffySpike


There was definitely an emotional connection there before the sexual one. The sex destroyed the foundations of what was beginning to emerge. In “Once More With Feeling” (6.07), Spike told her to stay away from him until she’s willing to make their relationship physical. In “Smashed” (6.09), Spike was fighting her before she decided to have sex with him.


The sex was based mainly on her physical attraction to him, not the emotional one and she gave into that too early and so that overshadowed the emotional connection and stopped it dead in its tracks because she had sex with an "evil soulless thing". But had she developed her emotional relationship a bit more then maybe things would have been different. See above. Also, I don’t see how becoming lovers with Spike somehow lessened her emotional connection to him. And “Dead Things” (6.13) is perhaps the first time she owned (to herself) that she’s in love with Spike. And that only happened after she had beaten his face in.


though the no Soul thing would always be the barrier that would stop her allowing herself to actually be in love with him. “Lessons” (7.01) and “Beneath You” (7.02) happened when Buffy wasn’t aware that Spike had gotten his soul back. Riley offered to de-chip Spike merely because Buffy still cared about Spike. It’s a given Riley didn’t know that Spike had been re-ensouled. And Buffy in “Get It Done” (7.15) says that she wants the Spike “that’s dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill [her] when [they] first met.”


She also appeared to have cried at least once over it when spike said "did you cry?" (at the wedding) she was shocked and read it wrong and assumed he meant over him, the reaction would indicate that she indeed had cried over him. Spike was referring to his bringing a date to the Xander/Anya wedding or at least he was intending a double-meaning.

Jack Shaftoe
22-01-13, 04:40 PM
I consider that Buffy’s been ‘into’ Spike since “School Hard” (2.03) and that’s the reason she didn’t dust him.

Maybe you also think Caleb, Glory and Adam were "into" Buffy, since their reason for not killing her is exactly the same as hers for not killing Spike. Hint: it starts with plot and ends with armour. Or alternatively, do you happen to think that Buffy was into Lyle Gorch or Ethan Raybe or Sweet the dancing demon too?

Tallgent
30-01-13, 10:29 PM
Entertainment Weekly has chosen both Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike as one of their 15 Top Teen Super Couples. That's right. Spuffy has finally been recognized and acknowledged by Entertainment Weekly. Go Spuffy!

http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20609141_20669076,00.html#21271282

Tallgent

Stoney
30-01-13, 10:39 PM
Don't you mean "Go Bike!!" Why would anyone go for that option, ha! I see all the comments point it out to them, very amusing. Nice to see both pairings acknowledged without it being competitive actually.

Moscow Watcher
31-01-13, 08:41 AM
Thank you, Tall! It's great news. "Bike" instead of "Spuffy" is hilarious. I wonder if it will inspire fans to make manips based on that famous James Marsters photo session with a bike. :)

Just in case - a "printscreen" pic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Misc2/EWSpuffyBangel.jpg

Tranquillity
31-01-13, 09:14 PM
EW is a bit silly really. I mean, "Bike", really? And to put them in a list of "Teen Super Couples" when neither Buffy or Spike were teenagers by the time they were involved...

TimeTravellingBunny
31-01-13, 09:29 PM
EW is a bit silly really. I mean, "Bike", really? And to put them in a list of "Teen Super Couples" when neither Buffy or Spike were teenagers by the time they were involved...
They were probably trying to appear unbiased, after having been criticized a lot for their Bangel bias. But even Bangel only borderline qualifies, since only half of the couple was teenage (while a look at the rest of the list seems to indicate that in most couples, both people were teens, although I don't actually know most of them). Angel wasn't a teenager even in the sort-of way that Edward Cullen or Stefan Salvatore are. Would they also include a relationship between a teenager and a 40-year old human as a "teen super-couple"?

Moscow Watcher
07-02-13, 01:23 PM
http://www.hypable.com/2013/02/05/hypables-battleships-qualifying-round-1/

Hypable’s BattleShips – Classic TV: Qualifying Round 1 (vote for your favorite ships!)

Voting ends Feb., 8.


So far...

Angel/Spike (1%, 9 Votes)
Angel/Drusilla (0%, 1 Votes)
Spike/Drusilla (1%, 8 Votes)
Giles/Jenny (0%, 3 Votes)
Faith/Xander (0%, 2 Votes)
Buffy/Faith (1%, 13 Votes)
Willow/Dark Willow (0%, 4 Votes)
Willow/Oz (2%, 23 Votes)
Willow/Tara (9%, 98 Votes)
Willow/Xander (2%, 19 Votes)
Anya/Spike (0%, 2 Votes)
Anya/Xander (2%, 19 Votes)
Buffy/Xander (1%, 7 Votes)
Buffy/Riley (0%, 5 Votes)
Buffy/Spike (45%, 487 Votes)
Buffy/Angel (36%, 383 Votes)

Jack Shaftoe
07-02-13, 04:00 PM
Willow/Dark Willow

What the hell? That like a crack ship on steroids. :) They could have at least made it Willow/Vamp Willow which was played with a bit in the show.

Moscow Watcher
07-02-13, 04:10 PM
What the hell? That like a crack ship on steroids. :) They could have at least made it Willow/Vamp Willow which was played with a bit in the show.

I guess they meant Willow/vamp Willow in Doppelgangland, but used the wrong description.:)

Moscow Watcher
06-03-13, 06:53 PM
http://www.heroesandheartbreakers.com/blogs/2013/03/author-rainbow-rowell-on-the-most-satisfying-love-stories-ever

Author Rainbow Rowell on the Most Satisfying Love Stories Ever



4. Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Best romantic hero? Spike. Best character of all time ever-ever-ever? Spike. (Yes, you in the back, I hear you shouting “Angel,” but I’m ignoring you. Because you seem like a nice person, and I don’t want to shout at you. HOW COULD ONE HUMAN BEING BE SO WRONG?!??)

What’s brilliant about Spike—and later Spike and Buffy together—is how deeply we get to know them. Not just at a skin level; at a soul level. Spike and Buffy talk about everything.

It always bothers me in love stories when characters fall in love for completely surface reasons. (“My dog loves him!”) I want to see characters tear each other open too see if their hearts beat in time. I want to see them together. That’s the voyeuristic thrill of loving love stories. Seeing them find each other, learn each other, sleep together, wake up together, patrol the cemetery at night, side by side.

Buffy and Angel loved each other from afar; they whimpered in each other’s general direction. But Buffy and Spike happened onscreen. Team Spike 4EVA.
:)

TimeTravellingBunny
06-03-13, 09:44 PM
http://www.heroesandheartbreakers.com/blogs/2013/03/author-rainbow-rowell-on-the-most-satisfying-love-stories-ever

Author Rainbow Rowell on the Most Satisfying Love Stories Ever


:)
That's a really nice explanation. Unfortunately, the author's #1 pick for the most satisfying romance pretty much devalues the entire list. (It's also quite ironic considering the author's comment about people who fall in love for superficial reasons.)

Tallgent
25-03-13, 11:52 PM
Vote Spuffies! Vote like the wind!

http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/03/25/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-angel-spike-poll/

Tallgent

Miss Kitty
26-03-13, 12:29 AM
So which vamp is it, PopWatchers? Angel, the one she loved deeply, or Spike, the one she slept with begrudgingly?

Oh. My. God.

Actually, all the summary is funny.

:roll:

I voted :)

Tranquillity
26-03-13, 05:11 AM
I've done my Spuffy duty too :)

Some of those comments though...

MikeB
26-03-13, 06:07 AM
I'll get to previous posts later on.



http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/03/25/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-angel-spike-poll/ Biased article much?


It’s an age old question for Buffy the Vampire Slayer fans — the vampire with the soul or the bad-boy bloodsucker with the frosted blond hair? Spike also has a soul and his hair is bleached, not “frosted”.


David Boreanaz’s Angel was the original brooding vampire. (Sorry, Robert Pattinson.) That’d be Bram Stoker’s Dracula.


A few crossovers later, Angel remained Buffy’s one true vampire love. Not according to Joss Whedon. Joss maintains Buffy was in love with Spike.


So which vamp is it, PopWatchers? Angel, the one she loved deeply, or Spike, the one she slept with begrudgingly? Don’t agree with their assessment of Buffy/Spike BtVS S6. But this part is simply incorrect. Buffy was in love with Spike. Also, its interesting the article doesn’t even mention BtVS S8 or BtVS S9.

ubi4soft
26-03-13, 12:17 PM
Voted.

Wow, some of those comments are ...:confused3:


Buffy/Spike sketch

http://twitter.com/erinillustrates/status/304043730233618433/photo/1

Sky
26-03-13, 12:25 PM
Wow, some of those comments are ...:confused3:


I agree. Seeing how people blame Spike for AR after everything we have seen so far. And then goes to say Angel is better after s8/9, is just making me lose faith in this fandom.

TimeTravellingBunny
26-03-13, 02:19 PM
Spuffy is still winning, despite the usual rabid Bangel bias by the EW writer (ewwww) ;) I'm just going to sit and enjoy the fact that Spuffy is winning despite all their efforts and "voting instructions". :D

KingofCretins
26-03-13, 03:41 PM
For once I want EW or someone to put "Buffy/Anyone Freakin' Else/enough already" on one of these polls so we can really see what's what :)

ubi4soft
26-03-13, 06:25 PM
Things got a little intense as the poll was linked to Buffy's facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/BuffyTheVampireSlayer) about 1 hour ago, but they asked Ok guys, it's time for the biggest decision of the day: Spike or Angel? Vote in Entertainment Weekly's poll: http://bit.ly/WTIYmu

By the limits of my PC/browser's capacity, here's another scientific analusys

You and 6,482 others like this.

Ctrl+F From a total comments 5,002 of 6,889 (in 1 hour!!!!!)

Spike - 3149
Angel - 2228

Wow, if added these facebook voters might give EW a harder day despite their complaining (http://entertainmentweekly.tumblr.com/post/46341561199/better-speak-up-buffy-angel-fans-buffy-spike-is)

Better speak up, Buffy/Angel fans — Buffy/Spike is winning in our poll, 56% to 43%.

TimeTravellingBunny
26-03-13, 07:13 PM
Things got a little intense as the poll was linked to Buffy's facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/BuffyTheVampireSlayer) about 1 hour ago, but they asked Ok guys, it's time for the biggest decision of the day: Spike or Angel? Vote in Entertainment Weekly's poll: http://bit.ly/WTIYmu

By the limits of my PC/browser's capacity, here's another scientific analusys

You and 6,482 others like this.

Ctrl+F From a total comments 5,002 of 6,889 (in 1 hour!!!!!)

Spike - 3149
Angel - 2228

Wow, if added these facebook voters might give EW a harder day despite their complaining (http://entertainmentweekly.tumblr.com/post/46341561199/better-speak-up-buffy-angel-fans-buffy-spike-is)

Better speak up, Buffy/Angel fans — Buffy/Spike is winning in our poll, 56% to 43%.

How did Buffy/Angel vs Buffy/Spike turn into "Angel or Spike"? Why do people always do that? Liking a character and liking a certain ship this character is involved in is not the same thing. Maybe someone likes Angel but likes him better with Darla or Cordelia or on his own? Maybe someone likes Spike but doesn't like the Buffy/Spike relationship? Doesn't the "Buffy, the other person in the relationship" and "the dynamics of the relationship" figure into this at all? No, it always come down to "choose which vamp you like better (oh and that Buffy gal is the trophy in this case, since she's the protagonist and all)".

dorotea
26-03-13, 09:55 PM
How did Buffy/Angel vs Buffy/Spike turn into "Angel or Spike"?

Well, the usual way, you know. The way every discussion on almost every forum, almost always turns into 'who was the better man because of such and such parameters and therefore who deserves to get Buffy as a prize for his tenacity/persistence/luv skillz etc. I honestly cannot remember any discussion of the ships ever that was not turned into one of these, so why the surprise ?

MikeB
26-03-13, 10:25 PM
How people react to Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike is more of a 'fandom' topic than a Buffy/Spike topic.


For once I want EW or someone to put "Buffy/Anyone Freakin' Else/enough already" on one of these polls so we can really see what's what :) That option if mixed in with Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike would almost certainly get less than 10% of the votes (and that's being very generous).

KingofCretins
26-03-13, 11:15 PM
How people react to Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike is more of a 'fandom' topic than a Buffy/Spike topic.

That option if mixed in with Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike would almost certainly get less than 10% of the votes (and that's being very generous).

Oh, with all the crazy IP switching ballot stuffing and general insanity of polls designed to elicit shipper frenzy, probably.

In anything resembling a serious audience interest study? I would guess Buffy/NotThoseTwo would take a plurality -- between 40-60%.

TimeTravellingBunny
26-03-13, 11:50 PM
Well, the usual way, you know. The way every discussion on almost every forum, almost always turns into 'who was the better man because of such and such parameters and therefore who deserves to get Buffy as a prize for his tenacity/persistence/luv skillz etc. I honestly cannot remember any discussion of the ships ever that was not turned into one of these, so why the surprise ?
Not surprise. Just annoyance, again. Which is why I asked "Why do people always do that?" It's one of my least favorite fandom phenomena.

vampmogs
27-03-13, 12:01 AM
In anything resembling a serious audience interest study? I would guess Buffy/NotThoseTwo would take a plurality -- between 40-60%.

Because that's what Twilight, True Blood and The Vampire Diaries has taught us, right? ;)

Sorry but I really, really doubt it. Vampire ships are immensely popular and this was just as true for BtVS. Why do you think B/A images were all over the official merchandise (the CD, posters, books, coffee mugs etc) and the WB was banking on the ship to bring viewers over from monday to tuesday nights? (which scored the show it's biggest ratings ever, btw). Why do you think they felt Angel was popular enough to get his own spinoff? I'd be willing to bet pretty much everything I own that when it comes to shipping, there's not a chance in hell that 60% of the audience would have preferred Buffy be with someone other than Angel or Spike. It's reflected in the show's marketing, in writer's interviews, and in the general media that the vampire ships were the most popular and pretty much everybody working on the series knew it. It is what it is *shrugs*

TimeTravellingBunny
27-03-13, 12:34 AM
Oh, with all the crazy IP switching ballot stuffing and general insanity of polls designed to elicit shipper frenzy, probably.

In anything resembling a serious audience interest study? I would guess Buffy/NotThoseTwo would take a plurality -- between 40-60%.
I don't know if it qualifies as "serious audience interest studies", but they've had such a poll on Facebook Buffy page, with three options: "Buffy and Angel", "Buffy and Spike" and "Not really bothered about either". You can see what the results were: https://www.facebook.com/questions/10150564119719485/?qa_ref=ssp

Which pairing do you prefer?

Buffy and Angel - 81
Buffy and Spike - 254
Not really bothered about either - 29

PointMan
27-03-13, 09:05 AM
It is hard to take those poll results seriously. Shippers are much more rabid and vocal than other fans. I know this because I am one. It is next to impossible to get an accurate picture because it would require getting non shippers to take interest in a shipper poll, which is something not at all likely to happen.

MikeB
28-03-13, 10:03 AM
I'll get to previous posts later.



http://entertainmentweekly.tumblr.com/post/46341561199/better-speak-up-buffy-angel-fans-buffy-spike-is

Wow, obviously EW wanted Buffy/Angel to win. The results were Buffy/Spike - 56% Buffy/Angel 44% and the poll was the most commented thing on EW.com with 1,010 comments. That FaceBook link has 19,931 likes. That BtVS FaceBook page has 1.5M likes.

BtVS is still very popular and Buffy/Spike among fans is still significantly more popular than Buffy/Angel.

KingofCretins
28-03-13, 11:05 AM
Because that's what Twilight, True Blood and The Vampire Diaries has taught us, right? ;)

The ease with which "Buffy" becomes indistinguishable from these because of the sea anchor that is the vampire triangle chained to its neck should actually cause a certain degree of fridge horror. Notice, all three of those series are not about icons of female power where the lady in question is actually the most badass thing in the show in the first place... because that is a thing antithetical to being a Harlequin-esque heroine torn between her uncontrollable passion for two mythic gothic fantasy fetish figures.

vampmogs
28-03-13, 11:55 AM
... what does that have to do with the popularity of vampire ships, though? I wasn't likening Buffy to Elena, Bella, or Sookie, and I wasn't claiming that vampire ships or love triangles are the most important thing in the show. I was just pointing out that vampire ships are EXTREMELY popular and this was just as true for BtVS. Again, look at the merchandising, look at the writer's interviews, the media attention etc. The reason there's never any Buffy/Xander or Buffy/Riley in these polls (just like there's no Bella/Mike, Sookie/Sam, Elena/Matt etc) is because they just don't compare in popularity to the likes of Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike. Do you really think that 40%-60% of the audience was disappointed that they chose to explore B/A in S1-S3 instead of B/X? That the writers made a massive error in judgement when they banked on the couple's popularity when pretty much basing much of the second season on it? That the WB got it wrong when it used B/A to hook viewers into the 'WB's New Tuesday Night!" That Innocence scoring the highest figures ever was a mere coincidence? Was Joss completely misinformed when he conceded that fans weren't warming up to Buffy/Riley because they couldn't get over Bangel? Why do DH almost always only refer to B/A and B/S shippers?

If 40%-60% of the audience (over half!!) wanted a 'Buffy/Not Those Two' option those voices would have been heard a long time ago. The reason that's not an option on the poll because nobodies really kidding themselves that any other of Buffy's relationships can compete in popularity to Bangel/Spuffy. So, yeah, I think it's pure fantasy to believe the majority of the audience don't care at all about B/A or B/S or, even more unlikely, would have preferred Buffy with someone else. Are there some fans who feel that way? Sure. Are they even close to the majority? I'd bet my LIFE on it that they're not. And something tells me that everybody working on the series knew it too because, well, they pretty much said so.

KingofCretins
28-03-13, 12:05 PM
... what does that have to do with the popularity of vampire ships, though? I wasn't likening Buffy to Elena, Bella, or Sookie, and I wasn't claiming that vampire ships or love triangles are the most important thing in the show.

You can't liken the popularity without implicitly catching up the characters and the overall idiom of each tale in the comparison. If a decade on from the television show, the cultural lineage of "Buffy" is to a handful of franchises whose defining characteristic are love triangles typified by a woman helplessly entangled in the sexy overpowering danger of two mythological lovers... I'd say that the point has rather been lost.

Of which I should say my point is that the popularity of the vampire 'ships is inextricably the shortfall of the


Do you really think that 40%-60% of the audience was disappointed that they chose to explore B/A in S1-S3 instead of B/X?

Nope. I do think you could show 40-60% who don't think the thrust of the series should be "which vampire (or anybody, really, but gothic sex/death/ravage-me-creature-of-darkness kink being what it is, certainly the most time has been spent on these) should Buffy be having sex with?", which is ultimately what the 'shipper war culture of the fandom has distilled the entire franchise down to.

vampmogs
28-03-13, 12:12 PM
This was a shipping poll so naturally it would be about shipping. I really don't get how focusing on one aspect of the show is making the entire show all about shipping. There are plenty of different polls that focus on other things (best show, best female heroine, best vampire etc) so I hardly see what's problematic about it. Also, caring about Bangel or Spuffy and/or shipping them is not antithetical with liking many other things about the show as well or appreciating that it was about so much more. In fact, I'd question how somebody could like the show and be totally apathetic to both relationships seeing as how they were both such major story lines for the protagonist.

Bittersweettwit
28-03-13, 04:13 PM
This was a shipping poll so naturally it would be about shipping. I really don't get how focusing on one aspect of the show is making the entire show all about shipping. There are plenty of different polls that focus on other things (best show, best female heroine, best vampire etc) so I hardly see what's problematic about it. Also, caring about Bangel or Spuffy and/or shipping them is not antithetical with liking many other things about the show as well or appreciating that it was about so much more. In fact, I'd question how somebody could like the show and be totally apathetic to both relationships seeing as how they were both such major story lines for the protagonist.

*raises hand* Well I love Buffy even if I'm currently out of touch with the verse and would rank it as my favorite television series of all time :heart:

But I honestly couldn't give a damn one way or the other whether Buffy ends up with Spike, Angel or some other male! In fact my favorite Buffy tends to be single Buffy... As long as the core scooby dynamic remains which is where I'm most invested then I'm happy :) I'm not saying fans like myself are the majority I'm not interested in getting into that debate just refuting your implication that we don't exist :p

TimeTravellingBunny
28-03-13, 04:55 PM
*raises hand* Well I love Buffy even if I'm currently out of touch with the verse and would rank it as my favorite television series of all time :heart:

But I honestly couldn't give a damn one way or the other whether Buffy ends up with Spike, Angel or some other male! In fact my favorite Buffy tends to be single Buffy... As long as the core scooby dynamic remains which is where I'm most invested then I'm happy :) I'm not saying fans like myself are the majority I'm not interested in getting into that debate just refuting your implication that we don't exist :p
Well you can be indifferent to who Buffy ends up with; but I don't see how you can really enjoy the show while hating/not caring for those relationships as storylines on the show, which it's all about really. Those were major storylines and a big part of the show, so if you disliked them and think that they should never have been a part of the show or that they almost ruined it, as King appears to think (?), that's at least 60% of the show ruined for you.

There are people (including some I know) who really don't have a preference at all who Buffy is or isn't with, but who enjoyed all her relationships for what they were, as storylines and phases of development for Buffy.

KingofCretins
28-03-13, 05:30 PM
I don't think Buffy's relationships, or the notion of her having relationships, are the weakness of the show. Giving her relationships with vampires that avert basically none of the tropes of such relationships, though, always butted heads against the very premise of her being badder-assed than the monsters around her. Because the thing itself, its whole appeal, is designed for the ineffectual Bellas and the screamin' indignant Sookies or the demure Elena who people seem pathologically compelled to protect. They take a woman who can get caught in the approach-avoidance of that dark, dangerous man who is oh-so-bad-and-dangerous-to-her-if-he-wasn't-just-so-damn-good.

So we start with Buffy, who will turn around in the alley to destroy the monster... unless we feel like Nina Harkering her as someone whose lip will still manage to tremble at the dangerous appeal of something she can and should be able to just knock out with a club and drag back to her cave if she wants it.

To wit, if "Buffy" wanted to do vampire romance, I should have preferred her being a lot more take-it-or-leave-it, a lot less the doe-eyed ingénue in her dealings, be they Disney-hued "Beauty and the Beast" of it with Angel or the original recipe "Spike-and-a-half Weeks" of it. Be a template for "heroine with vampire love interests" that fully curbstomps the tropes of those romances as Buffy's own existence would her horror movie archetype. As I said when that parody video about a woman on "Mad Men" (I don't watch it) pitching the concept to "Buffy" and the men promptly fine-tuning it right into being "Twilight", the guys actually had to get pretty far into that process before it stopped actually being identifiably still "Buffy", and there should be a bit of admonishment in that fact.

Creating the "Buffy" concept and then using it as a setting for stories that are in inherent tension with that whole concept is like buying a $70 filet, cooking it to a medium rare... and then dousing it A1 steak sauce to give it some "flavor".

Bittersweettwit
28-03-13, 07:01 PM
Well you can be indifferent to who Buffy ends up with; but I don't see how you can really enjoy the show while hating/not caring for those relationships as storylines on the show, which it's all about really. Those were major storylines and a big part of the show, so if you disliked them and think that they should never have been a part of the show or that they almost ruined it, as King appears to think (?), that's at least 60% of the show ruined for you.

There are people (including some I know) who really don't have a preference at all who Buffy is or isn't with, but who enjoyed all her relationships for what they were, as storylines and phases of development for Buffy.

Yes but the point I saw Kings making was that he thought 40-60% of the fans would agree that "who will Buffy end up with" should not be the main thrust of the show and then the reply implied that it was impossible to be a fan without caring about this. I was merely pointing out that I am one such fan who does not think whether Bangel or Spuffy is end game should be what the show or in the current case comics should focus on as I really don't give a damn about which one if any she ends up with to be honest :)

And I can appreciate storylines associated with them for instance the Angelus storyline of season 2 is one of the best story-lines on the show because it added a certain personal element to it, but I enjoyed the story-line because Angelus made for a great villain not because "OMG Buffy and Angel are gonna end up back together by the time this is over because true love."

Tennyoelf
28-03-13, 09:29 PM
Shipping is only one aspect of the show and the series and I personally believe it enriches the show. But as someone who ships it can be blinding at times. It sometimes eats at you, makes you irrational or silly. Shipping is probably one of the most emotional crazed aspects since it deals with the "significant other" of the hero(ine). And that sometimes takes over the focus for other aspects of the show for that person.

I agree that the focus on the show should not be on the romance part, but on the overall theme of the show and on Buffy (it's her show after all).

(One reason I like spuffy, and I can mention this in the spuffy thread, because I've always viewed it as an almost equal relationship. She makes decisions, he follows and if he doesn't like it he speaks up. I feel like while it's an equal relationship, Spike looks up/loves/admires Buffy's strong personality and spuffy isn't bogged down because "she's the woman" and the man has to wear the pants.)

TimeTravellingBunny
28-03-13, 10:46 PM
Yes but the point I saw Kings making was that he thought 40-60% of the fans would agree that "who will Buffy end up with" should not be the main thrust of the show and then the reply implied that it was impossible to be a fan without caring about this.
No, he wasn't saying that. He said that 40-60% of the Buffy fans would prefer Buffy to not be with either Angel or Spike. That's not "not caring" about who Buffy is with; that's very much caring, but caring in the opposite way, i.e. being against both vampire relationships. ("In anything resembling a serious audience interest study? I would guess Buffy/NotThoseTwo would take a plurality -- between 40-60%." Yeah, right.)


And I can appreciate storylines associated with them for instance the Angelus storyline of season 2 is one of the best story-lines on the show because it added a certain personal element to it, but I enjoyed the story-line because Angelus made for a great villain not because "OMG Buffy and Angel are gonna end up back together by the time this is over because true love."
Me, too.

Tallgent
28-03-13, 10:59 PM
Pleasantly surprised by the poll results. Shift in the zeitgeist or dip in interest in Buffy/Angel? Hard to say. But good job showing up and pulling off the upset, Spuffies!

Here's what I posted in the comments:


I think you could make the argument that Spuffies should thank True Blood and Vampire Diaries for the poll results because while Buffy, Angel, and Spike started it those two shows mainstreamed it. So now having a bad boy antihero as a love interest is a feasible idea as compared to the height of Buffy/Angel with the romantic brooder. It’s kind of funny that Buffy the Vampire Slayer was kind of the bridge between the conventional tortured hero and the sarcastic, cocky antihero. It may also be indicative of a society that seems to be wanting to moving away from conventional morality into more of a relativistic worldview that might eventually eschew any kind of morality altogether. Let’s hope that philosophy at least strictly stays within the storytelling and imagination.

Tallgent

Bittersweettwit
28-03-13, 11:01 PM
No, she wasn't saying that. He said that 40-60% of the Buffy fans would prefer Buffy to not be with either Angel or Spike. That's not "not caring" about who Buffy is with; that's very much caring, but caring in the opposite way, i.e. being against both vampire relationships. ("In anything resembling a serious audience interest study? I would guess Buffy/NotThoseTwo would take a plurality -- between 40-60%." Yeah, right.)


Me, too.

The quote I was responding to


In fact, I'd question how somebody could like the show and be totally apathetic to both relationships seeing as how they were both such major story lines for the protagonist.

I was answering this question with the comment that one can be totally apathetic to both relationships while liking the show especially within the modern context. Don't get me wrong as I said in my last post I can understand the importance they had in the shows history and enjoyed some of the associated story-lines such as the Angelus arc of season two. However I'm apathetic to the continued use of these story-lines in canon and if the comics were to definitely end both having Buffy move on and leave Spuffy and Bangel (in a romantic sense) as just that history but not apart of the present verse story-line I personally would not be bothered in the least :)

As I said in my first post I'm not interested in entering the 40-60% debate as I don't presume to speak for the majority of canon simply highlighting that those of us apathetic do exist ;)

TimeTravellingBunny
28-03-13, 11:04 PM
Pleasantly surprised by the poll results. Shift in the zeitgeist or dip in interest in Buffy/Angel? Hard to say. But good job showing up and pulling off the upset, Spuffies!

Here's what I posted in the comments:



Tallgent
I think that there are a lot of people who would disagree with the description of Angel, Bill and Stefan as "conventional (tortured) hero". Not the tortured part, but the conventional hero part. Or the hero part altogether.

I would say that, out of all the people mentioned, Buffy is the closest to the description of a "tortured hero"... except not so conventional, but this is due to the outside factors such as her gender, looks, age, personality. But as far as actions and morality go, Buffy is the "conventional hero" in that group of people, and she gets more and more tortured as seasons went by.

Angel, if we look at his actions, history, and beliefs, is arguably closer to an antihero, or morally ambiguous hero.

kana
29-03-13, 12:02 AM
I must admit, I see it somewhat as a false dichotomy. "I'd question how somebody could like the show and be totally apathetic to both relationships" is inconsistent with "which vampire should Buffy be having sex with"?

I wasn't indifferent to most of the relationships in the 'Verse, but does that mean I now have an investment in whether Buffy ends up with Spike or Angel? Or course it would have an impact on the story-line if she ended up with either vampire but I wouldn't care all that much if she didn't end up with either. I honestly see the investment in the 'ships' and the general, rich tapestry of the narrative as a ludicrously false dichotomy.

I am equally compelled by Angel losing his soul because it signifies his love for Buffy, as I am about Buffy using the rocket launcher against the Judge. For me the question is "What great story-line will present itself next?" not specifically "Who is Buffy going to f***ing this season?"

Nina
29-03-13, 03:04 PM
Not sure if I completely understand the discussion here, is it a version of the tired discussion around Bangel vs Spuffy vs neither as endgame, or about what they were in the show? Because if I take myself as an example; I really enjoyed Bangel in BtVS season 1-3 and it's storylines. But the writers managed to make that relation so toxic that I wished that the Bangel!ship was allowed to sail to Fuiji after Sanctuary. But that doesn't mean that I wasn't invested in it in the beginning. Same with Spuffy actually, I never shipped it because Spike leaves me cold in most cases, but I was fine with it. But now I just wish that both ships would die and all characters would move on to new and less worn out (and hopefully healthier) relations. I think that both Bangel and Spuffy were too popular for their own good, after a while the characters and shows started to suffer. Not everything that was once good remains good.

vampmogs
29-03-13, 03:42 PM
*raises hand* Well I love Buffy even if I'm currently out of touch with the verse and would rank it as my favorite television series of all time :heart:

But I honestly couldn't give a damn one way or the other whether Buffy ends up with Spike, Angel or some other male! In fact my favorite Buffy tends to be single Buffy... As long as the core scooby dynamic remains which is where I'm most invested then I'm happy :) I'm not saying fans like myself are the majority I'm not interested in getting into that debate just refuting your implication that we don't exist :p

I'm not sure you understand what I meant here ;) You don't have to be a shipper or be invested in who Buffy ends up with to still have some kind of interest in Bangel or Spuffy. In fact, you could outright loathe both of them and that'd still be a sign that you have some emotional investment in them. I am also a Scooby-centric fan but I most certainly have an opinion on her relationships with Angel and Spike and can't imagine being totally apathetic to them as they're such huge parts of the show. Also, as a massive Buffy fan, I'd find it nigh impossible not to have some opinion on her relationship with the vampires as they're greatly significant to her story arc. To appreciate Buffy's character fully I must acknowledge the role Angel and Spike played in her life.

In order to be totally apathetic to Bangel you'd have to pretty much have no emotional investment whatsoever in S2's story arc. That'd mean you'd have pretty much no opinion on episodes such as Innocence, Passion or Becoming when the ship is the driving force behind much of the episodes. To be totally apathetic to Spuffy you'd have to ignore a significant chunk of S6 and the significance of Spike to the protagonist's arc that season. That'd mean being completely apathetic to the alleyway beat down, the AR, Spike getting his soul back etc. I mean, you must have a reason as to why you prefer single Buffy and surely that has something to do with your feelings about the character when she has a boyfriend or love interest?

Not having a preference for who Buffy ends up with or being more invested in other aspects of the show is not remotely the same thing as not having any interest in the ships at all. As I said, I'd question how that's even possible and I'm yet to come across as fan who it applies to. Even the most ardent Scooby-centric fans have some kind of opinion on Bangel/Spuffy. Just like plenty of shippers have things to say about the Scooby relationship or other aspects of the plot. The characters, friendships and ships are all integral parts of the series and whilst we may all have our preferences and gravitate towards certain things more than others, the show as a whole encompasses all of these things.

Yosso
29-03-13, 05:11 PM
I think that shipping is more than who will Buffy end up with in the sense of Buffy having a soulmate, but who did you enjoy watching Buffy with more during the series. I, personally, don't care who Buffy ends up with in the end, but I'm a Spuffy shipper. Not die-hard, but they were a heck of a lot more interesting and complex to watch in S5 and 6. Plus they're just so much more real. I can definitely say, and I bet most would agree, that I can relate more to the messiness of Spuffy than the star-crossed lover angst of Bangel. That's not to say I didn't enjoy the Angelus arc.

MikeB
30-03-13, 12:45 AM
All caught up

http://www.hypable.com/2013/02/05/hypables-battleships-qualifying-round-1/


Which 'Buffy' ship should represent the show?

Angel/Spike (1%, 9 Votes)
Angel/Drusilla (0%, 1 Votes)
Spike/Drusilla (1%, 12 Votes)
Giles/Jenny (0%, 3 Votes)
Faith/Xander (0%, 2 Votes)
Buffy/Faith (1%, 14 Votes)
Willow/Dark Willow (0%, 5 Votes)
Willow/Oz (2%, 24 Votes)
Willow/Tara (9%, 109 Votes)
Willow/Xander (2%, 20 Votes)
Anya/Spike (0%, 2 Votes)
Anya/Xander (2%, 20 Votes)
Buffy/Xander (1%, 7 Votes)
Buffy/Riley (0%, 5 Votes)
Buffy/Spike (49%, 614 Votes)
Buffy/Angel (32%, 411 Votes)

Total Voters: 1,258 Obviously this isn’t a random sampling of BtVS fans, but Buffy/Spike is shown to be the most popular ‘ship by a wide margin. To KingOfCretins , notice Buffy/Xander and Buffy/Riley got a combined total of 12 votes compared to the combined total of Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel with 1,025 votes.



http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/03/25/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-angel-spike-poll/


The 'Buffy' couple who should compete in the tournament is ... (Poll Closed)

Buffy and Spike 56.23%
Buffy and Angel 43.77% This currently has over 1,048 comments and people are continuing to comment (the last one was 2 hours ago). This poll isn’t a random sampling but given this is an EW poll and probably thousands voted in this poll, this poll is probably a good indicator of which relationship the fans prefer.




Jack Shaftoe

My quote: “I consider that Buffy’s been ‘into’ Spike since “School Hard” (2.03) and that’s the reason she didn’t dust him.”

Buffy eventually got with Spike and Spike is one of the two great loves of her life.



Tallgent


Entertainment Weekly has chosen both Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike as one of their 15 Top Teen Super Couples. That's right. Spuffy has finally been recognized and acknowledged by Entertainment Weekly. Go Spuffy! EW recognized Buffy/Spike more before the whole Twilight thing.

http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20609141_20669076,00.html#21271282

That “Bike” thing is ridiculous, but they list Buffy/Spike first and picture it first.

________________________________________________


Pleasantly surprised by the poll results. Shift in the zeitgeist or dip in interest in Buffy/Angel? Hard to say. But good job showing up and pulling off the upset, Spuffies! In polls since 2005, Buffy/Spike’s won every poll I’m aware of.



TimeTravellingBunny


How did Buffy/Angel vs Buffy/Spike turn into "Angel or Spike"? Why do people always do that? Liking a character and liking a certain ship this character is involved in is not the same thing. Maybe someone likes Angel but likes him better with Darla or Cordelia or on his own? Maybe someone likes Spike but doesn't like the Buffy/Spike relationship? Doesn't the "Buffy, the other person in the relationship" and "the dynamics of the relationship" figure into this at all? No, it always come down to "choose which vamp you like better (oh and that Buffy gal is the trophy in this case, since she's the protagonist and all)". To be fair, the general Angel fan wants Buffy/Angel and the general Spike fan wants Buffy/Spike. And, the poll http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/03/25/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-angel-spike-poll/ had only Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike options.



KingofCretins


My quote: “[A Buffy/other] if mixed in with Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike would almost certainly get less than 10% of the votes (and that's being very generous).”

Oh, with all the crazy IP switching ballot stuffing and general insanity of polls designed to elicit shipper frenzy, probably.

In anything resembling a serious audience interest study? I would guess Buffy/NotThoseTwo would take a plurality -- between 40-60%. What do you mean by “resembling a serious audience interest study”? You don’t seem to mean a simple random sampling of Buffyverse fans.

________________________________________________


The ease with which "Buffy" becomes indistinguishable from [Twilight, True Blood, and The Vampire Diaries] because of the sea anchor that is the vampire triangle chained to its neck This is silly. Who considers BtVS “indistinguishable from [Twilight, True Blood, and The Vampire Diaries]”?

Secondly, the triangle is pretty much the entire point of Twilight and TVD. I don’t know much about True Blood.

BtVS isn’t about a triangle. It didn’t even ‘begin’ until in “Chosen” (7.22) and wasn’t that relevant until AtS s5.

_________________________________________________


I do think you could show 40-60% [of fans] who don't think the thrust of the series should be "which vampire (or anybody, really, but gothic sex/death/ravage-me-creature-of-darkness kink being what it is, certainly the most time has been spent on these) should Buffy be having sex with?", which is ultimately what the 'shipper war culture of the fandom has distilled the entire franchise down to. I remember your posts on the BtVS S8 threads. You clearly wanted Buffy/Xander to happen and were very local about that.

_________________________________________________


Giving her relationships with vampires that avert basically none of the tropes of such relationships Um, BtVS came out before Twilight , True Blood , and The Vampire Diaries .



PointMan


It is hard to take those poll results seriously. Shippers are much more rabid and vocal than other fans. I know this because I am one. It is next to impossible to get an accurate picture because it would require getting non shippers to take interest in a shipper poll, which is something not at all likely to happen. This is true. But overwhelmingly Buffyverse fans (meaning anyone who likes BtVS) prefer Buffy/Angel and/or Buffy/Spike to Buffy/other.



vampmogs


I'd question how somebody could like the show and be totally apathetic to both [Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike] seeing as how they were both such major story lines for the protagonist. There are other characters, other relationships (romantic and otherwise), other storylines, action sequences, etc.



Nina


I think that both Bangel and Spuffy were too popular for their own good, after a while the characters and shows started to suffer. Ratings are important.

BuffySpike
02-04-13, 10:54 PM
EDIT - Sorry totally wrong area of the forum

Miss Kitty
02-04-13, 11:45 PM
EW's second round. Buffy/Spike are against Booth/Brennan (Bones) :

http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/04/02/greatest-tv-couple-of-all-time-round-2-part-2/

Stoney
03-04-13, 08:36 AM
Spuffy losing at the moment.

EDIT: It is only 0.5 off 50:50 at the moment but not in Spuffy's favour. Who the heck are Booth and Bones that they are beating them?

Sky
03-04-13, 08:41 AM
Spuffy losing at the moment.

EDIT: It is only 0.5 off 50:50 at the moment but not in Spuffy's favour. Who the heck are Booth and Bones that they are beating them?

I already voted for Spuffy! :xd

Booth and Bones are characters from Bones tv show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bones_%28TV_series%29). Both is played by David Boreanaz. It's a show about detectives. The reason they are beating Spuffy could be because Bones is still airing, while Buffy tv show has ended a long time ago.

Stoney
03-04-13, 10:25 AM
So EW are determined to just keep matching DB/JM up as competition. Well, hopefully Spuffy will come through. :D