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View Full Version : What will happen in "Anywhere but Here"?



Weredog
10-11-07, 07:31 PM
Dark Horse reveals that this issue will have "Buffy and Willow meet a demon who reveals a dim future, forcing the two to reflect on their past. Meanwhile, back in Scotland, Dawn confides in Xander the deed that led to her mysterious growth spurt."

We have a couple months until its release, so what does you think will happen exactly? It doesn't matter if your imaginative take is way off when it's released! It's just fun and games!

I think Robin (the contest winner who will be featured in the issue) will be the demon. Like Whistler, she's a demon who looks human and has good intentions. I think she'll be the one who "reveals a dim future." The dim future itself will be Willow and Buffy, separated again like they were between "Chosen" and "Long Way Home" but more serious, so the two will do the "Primeval" thing again: "You're my best friend! Don't ever leave me!"
I think Dawn will reveal that she tried to do a love spell on Kenny and it malfunctioned and made her a giant.

Okay, so it's not Joss Whedon-good but you try!

KingofCretins
10-11-07, 08:05 PM
You're read on it makes a good deal of sense. Robin as a servant of TPTB makes the most sense, even if it means demonic in origin, like Whistler and Doyle were. To use her that way is a high compliment by Joss, and about the best way he could treat the contest winner. Think about it -- when Joss wrote Whistler, his original intention was to play him as well. It was a part designed to literally be the self-insertion of Joss into his work. If he's created a part to use Robin in the same way, that's very generous -- he'd be treating her as his voice in the work.

Apart from that, I hope Buffy and Willow's bonding is going to cover a lot of ground, since as Joss says, it's going to cover a lot of pages. Why Willow didn't stick around, what happened with Kennedy. I also *really* hope that we'll get an insight, through their conversation, into whether or not Buffy/Xander is in play this season or not.

Nostalgia
10-11-07, 08:46 PM
This episode will be very interesting.. and I look forward to both standalone issues.. guessing that they will probably will the two best episodes so far.. (plot/character centric episodes are almost always the best.)

I agree with your plot idea.. that would make a lot of sense. I also think that Buffy will definetly reveal her love interest.. if there is one.

I reread the statement from The Long Way Home where Buffy said..


I miss sex.. Great Muppety Odin I miss that sex..

and I still can't imagine it being anyone other than Spike. Angel was never about sex.. and it's been a while since they've actually been intimate. Unless there's so fling that's been going on with Xander.. it must be Spike. If this is the case, then obviously Buffy has mixed emotions about who she's attracted to. To the people who have suspected the mysterious fling.. I don't think that Xander would have been so shy around her.. still. If this was the case.. if they were having sex.. we wouldn't have had that awkward moment from issue 08. It just wouldn't make sense. They would have been in enough of a comfort to welcome Xander's chest. While I think Buffy's dream is still grounds.. and believe Xander kissed her to wake her from the dream.. I don't know if they are actually doing anything behind our backs.

I find it interesting that Buffy would refer to having sex with Spike.. considering this was a rough time for her and a very dark place. Maybe Buffy had sex with Spike in season seven after all?

KingofCretins
10-11-07, 08:52 PM
Unfortunately, Joss and Scott Allie confirmed (although did not give any consolation to it being hard to figure out reasonablly) that Satsu is the kisser. So, that's not a factor for Buffy/Xander.

I don't think Xander was hiding his chest, I think he was hiding his silly speech to the sandbag.

The great muppety odin line just doesn't feel plot significant to me, but, who knows. I can't rule out that Buffy and Xander have been together at some point now, but I know longer think it's the most likely thing. If they are going to get together, it's something that will be built up to. I still think wasting plot development of Buffy's love life on a basically off-screen character like Spike or Angel would be pointless -- if they don't want her with Xander, give her a full-time love interest that belongs to Dark Horse or keep her single.

Nostalgia
10-11-07, 09:47 PM
Really? I read that they stated it's been shown who it is.. but I haven't seen it been said it was Satsu.. Where did you see this?

Wow.. if Satsu kissed Buffy.. how can this be the case? How can Satsu be "in love" with Buffy? I hope that this doesn't go too far.. because no offense or anything.. but I just don't see Buffy in a gay relationship.

Nostalgia
10-11-07, 09:50 PM
and if this is the case.. why show Xander with a sad face? Directly after what Willow has to say?

I am so confused.

KingofCretins
10-11-07, 10:27 PM
There are numerous quotations, I don't feel like finding them, but the letter column reference in 8.08 confirms the ones I've read. I don't care if it's Satsu, I don't suppose, but they did cheat on the details since there's no obvious indication she was even in the room. Also, I think having Buffy, female empowerment icon, be a lesbian would be a pretty awful stereotype.

Nostalgia
10-11-07, 10:31 PM
I agree. I still don't know if you're quite correct on Satsu.. You've seen it stated by a good source (Joss, Scott, someone from Dark Horse)? I'll take your word though.. It was shown in issue four when she gave her the cinnamon lipstick.. that's probably what Scott mean't. Still, for him to think we wouldn't question that with the Xander dream still in the mix.. Joss is always out to trick us.

Weredog
10-11-07, 10:54 PM
It's pretty clear that Satsu kissed Buffy. Like you said, when Buffy woke up to the kiss she shouted "Cinnamon buns!" Then in the next issue, she applied Satsu's lipstick and noted: "Hm. Cinnamon."

This does not mean Buffy is gay. Whedon made that clear that for her to wake up, she had to be kissed by someone who's in love with her, not vice versa. In Issue #2, Xander and Amy discuss this matter:
X: So this doesn't have to be someone she's in love with.
A: No, I said. Just someone truly in love with her.
So, yes, Satsu is gay, whereas Buffy is not.
And judging by Jeanty's cover for #11, I think Satsu's infatuation will be revealed/discussed with Buffy. I think.

Nostalgia
11-11-07, 12:14 AM
I wasn't saying that it was vice-versa.. I just hope to God it doesn't in the future.. it's just very out of character.. and wouldn't be what I pictured for Buffy at all.. like King said.. as a female empowerment icon.. becoming a lesbian just wouldn't fit with me.

I have to say though.. I'm not sure it has relevance.. but did anyone realize Anywhere but Here is the game that the gang played in season 2? Their passing the time game when in school.. again, I am almost positive is it pointless. Just interesting. (I know this because my old board was called this.)

KingofCretins
11-11-07, 12:20 AM
Yep, and I think that's probably a clue to the core of the issue -- our main characters assessing where they are in their lives and how they feel about it. What they want and hope for, what they think and feel. I am actually hoping it's a very wordy, no-action, all calm dialogue kind of issue.

Enisy
11-11-07, 12:39 AM
I still think wasting plot development of Buffy's love life on a basically off-screen character like Spike or Angel would be pointless

Since Joss has promised us Willow and Tara for this issue (the latter being a permanently off-screen character), Angel and Spike might also be brought up for Buffy's character development. I actually hope that is the case... There's a reason the Faith arc has been the best so far -- more character development and less plot/flashy battles/disproportionate monsters.

Nostalgia
11-11-07, 12:51 AM
I think the monsters have been awesome.. as well as the battles..

I do agree though..

Koos
11-11-07, 02:27 PM
Unfortunately, Joss and Scott Allie confirmed (although did not give any consolation to it being hard to figure out reasonablly) that Satsu is the kisser. So, that's not a factor for Buffy/Xander.


The way I remember this spoilory thing was that Joss told this in a jokingly manner. I don't know if he was serious about it. To me the whole Satsu is the kisser because of her lipstick is just too obvious to be true. And as others have said, she wasn't shown in the room when Buffy was kissed.

Anyway, I wouldn't put my money on anyone. Could just have been that Satsu had borrowed the lipstick from someone else. Or it could have been that she had kissed the mysterious kisser prior to The Kiss; leaving the taste of the lipstick behind.

Who knows?

Enisy
11-11-07, 02:37 PM
Scott Allie: We were real surprised that [the fans] didnít figure out that Satsu kissed Buffy, that Satsuís in love with Buffy.

sueworld
11-11-07, 04:26 PM
Yeah, the fans were looking for something unexpected, or clever, and as per in this series so far, they got neither.

Very much a case 'What you see is what you get'.

Weredog
11-11-07, 04:33 PM
I thought it was pretty unexpected that it was Satsu. I would've felt spoonfed if it was Xander cause anyone, who was anyone, saw him coming.

Wolfie Gilmore
11-11-07, 05:02 PM
Yeah, the fans were looking for something unexpected, or clever, and as per in this series so far, they got neither.

Very much a case 'What you see is what you get'.

Yeah - I thought Satsu was a mislead, "Surely it can't be solved in that throwaway fashion", I thought, re the whole cinnamon shtick. So I was a bit miffed to read that that WAS the clever reveal.

However, if they play out the unrequited love of a junior slayer for her boss, that could be interesting, and would make the notion that Satsu was the kisser more worthwhile. Otherwise it's just a bit random! I wish they'd shown more of Satsu before the reveal, too, becaue I don't really know what it means for Satsu to be in love with Buffy, because I don't feel I know who she is...aside from having great hair.

Which I don't even think she does particularly. Buffy, as Gigi points out, isn't always the best judge of hair ;)

Re Anywhere but here, I'm very much looking forward to a Willow/Buffy centric storyline. Felt like we've been getting a nice sense of their friendship recently, but that there still are things that are being kept secret, or at least not fully disclosed...eg Willow saying she'll tell Buffy later about what went on with Kennedy (think that was in one of the first couple of issues?)

Sosa lola
11-11-07, 07:06 PM
I've read a really nice Buffy/Satsu fic, I'm not into fem Slash, but I'm enjoying the whole Satsu has a crush on Buffy bit. I'm so glad it wasn't Xander who kissed Buffy, because I want new stuff, new characters interacting with old characters, new subplots, new twists. It's one of the reasons I was disappointed with Warren coming back, I want new evil guys.

Weredog
11-11-07, 07:20 PM
It's one of the reasons I was disappointed with Warren coming back, I want new evil guys.

Me too! I can see why Joss did that; to confirm to everyone that this is continuing from the tv series. But, I agree with you. One of the (many) reasons "No Future for You" is way better than "Long Way Home" is because it introduces a refreshing new villain. I wish we would've seen Gigi on tv.

Koos
11-11-07, 09:43 PM
Yeah - I thought Satsu was a mislead, "Surely it can't be solved in that throwaway fashion", I thought, re the whole cinnamon shtick. So I was a bit miffed to read that that WAS the clever reveal.

Agreed. I thought (and still do, despite contradictionary information) it was nothing more than a little Joss Joke. You know, to give us another doubt.

KingofCretins
11-11-07, 09:45 PM
Yeah, the fans were looking for something unexpected, or clever, and as per in this series so far, they got neither.

*Stunned* to see a negative post about Season 8 here :)


However, if they play out the unrequited love of a junior slayer for her boss, that could be interesting, and would make the notion that Satsu was the kisser more worthwhile. Otherwise it's just a bit random! I wish they'd shown more of Satsu before the reveal, too, becaue I don't really know what it means for Satsu to be in love with Buffy, because I don't feel I know who she is...aside from having great hair.

I think they did a good and subtle job of telling us who Satsu is, in at least the best general touches, through her appearance, first of all -- the 'rude girl' button, her purple and green stuffed animal pads -- and also through her attitude. She seems like a pretty humble person, but competent. Just in that little scene of her getting her sword and making that gracious statement that it shouldn't have been her Buffy picked. Of course, most of this was after she's meant to have kissed Buffy.

All Buffy said was that Satsu had *her* best hair ever, so maybe she's just complimenting the improvement. But, hey, what do I know -- Buffy's "mom hair" was some of her best, to me.

Nostalgia
11-11-07, 09:50 PM
How it ever be unexpected though?

We know it had to be Willow, Xander, or Satsu.. either of the three would be unexpected..

Frankly, I'm glad it's one of them.. I'd rather be not surprised but make somewhat logical.. then just have a no name character kiss her and be completely irrelevant to the text.

KingofCretins
11-11-07, 09:56 PM
I would still like Joss or Scott to acknowledge that it was pretty iffy to find Satsu in any of the shots of that scene to make her a reasonable suspect -- more people would have suspected her, and taken the cinnamon lip gloss as more significant, if it had looked more possible for someone beside Xander or Willow to be the one kissing Buffy.

Nostalgia, if Season 8 stood up and walked on water, I think sue would say "look, Season 8 can't swim" :)

sueworld
11-11-07, 10:30 PM
I can pretend to like it and ignore it's faults if it'll keep you happy love.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

KingofCretins
11-11-07, 10:34 PM
Better not to pretend the faults are there in the first place. You are very high on throwing out blanket criticisms and quite a bit less enthusiastic about explaining them. And, generally speaking, an attempt to pin you down for them results in some variation of "well, it's just what I think". Which is fine, your mileage may vary.

But, Season 8 is a runaway success, critically and commercially, and very well received amongst Buffy fans -- are we all wrong, then? Do we just not 'get' Buffy correctly if we think Season 8 *is* authentic to it, *does* restore the lightheartedness of the superior, earlier televised seasons, *does* show the gang closer knit than we've seen them in a long time?

Weredog
11-11-07, 11:01 PM
I would still like Joss or Scott to acknowledge that it was pretty iffy to find Satsu in any of the shots of that scene to make her a reasonable suspect -- more people would have suspected her, and taken the cinnamon lip gloss as more significant, if it had looked more possible for someone beside Xander or Willow to be the one kissing Buffy.

I totally agree with you. Satsu being the kisser was unexpected and clever. It wasn't clever because it was Satsu -- who no one would've guessed she was gay because we didn't know her -- but the way Whedon revealed that she kissed Buffy was clever. When I read issue #3, I had no idea who kissed Buffy. Xander seemed too obvious (which in Joss terms means it's not him.) When I read #4 at the "Hm. Cinnamon" bit, it totally went over my head. I thought it was just Buffy being a girly girl. It wasn't until I re-read #3 that it clicked too me.
I thought it was brilliant work from Joss, as always.

sueworld
11-11-07, 11:26 PM
Better not to pretend the faults are there in the first place. I don't pretend. There are...in my opinion.

King what I say is my opinion only. Yes, it seems to be shared with a few others online, but thats not the point here.

I always say it's only my personal take on things. You think it's wonderful and thats fine by me. I'm not exactly leaping out and trying to stop your enjoyment of this series.


quite a bit less enthusiastic about explaining them A trait we both share then, as you seem to have done a bit of that yourself in the past I notice. On at least a couple of past threads I've answered you and you've just appear to have wondered off for some reason.

Maybe you're just going to have to accept that other people may have opposing views to you.

Alright. :lol:

KingofCretins
11-11-07, 11:34 PM
The cinnamon lip gloss didn't get past me for a second... but since it had looked so much like Satsu hadn't even been in the room, or at least not in a position to elbow past Xander and Willow to get to Buffy, I assumed it was a red herring. My real theory is that it was a clue -- that we'd find out Satsu loans the stuff out and that someone else had been wearing the lip gloss.

It was just so surprising to have Joss and Scott sort of proclaim by fiat that it was Satsu. But, hey -- Lucas says Greedo shot first, Joss says Satsu kissed Buffy, that's how it is.

Nostalgia
12-11-07, 04:03 PM
The fact that season 8 is loved throughout the Buffy fanbase is something you definetly have to take into consideration. If you're going to criticize it.. there must be something missing for you.. not us. If the majority of the people that are reading this are finding enjoyment and excellent writing.. Why take on your criticism so harshly? Obviously there's something about it that doesn't appeal to you.. But to say that there's flaws.. that's a bit too pessimistic for something that's been seen flawless by almost everyone else. Usually when I am defending a small case.. I take under consideration that maybe I'm doing something wrong first.. it's quite pompous to state "facts" when it's just one person's opinion.

sueworld
12-11-07, 04:13 PM
The fact that season 8 is loved throughout the Buffy fanbase is something you definetly have to take into consideration. If you're going to criticize it.. there must be something missing for you.. not us. If the majority of the people that are reading this are finding enjoyment and excellent writing..

Sorry love many folks on live journal don't think it' all it's cracked up to be either. I did repost one such review, in another thread if you care to read it.

If others love it fine, great. But not everyone likes the same things, thank god, and so not everybody thinks the same.

Such a board as this is evidence of that surely? We all have different tastes and you don't see me going around saying that just because others don't share my viewpoint that there must be something wrong with them. *g*

It's called having an opinion love. We all have one, and so we don't have to tag along with 'the majority' just because we feel we aught to 'tow the company line', do we. I know I don't.


it's quite pompous to state "facts" when it's just one person's opinion.

I know, read my post above. Maybe you would be better addressing that last remark to King instead. *g*

Nostalgia
12-11-07, 05:22 PM
If this board hasn't been evident enough.. try reading Scott's mail section.. I'm sorry, but there are far more people who have enjoyed it so far compared to those who don't. You cannot deny that. So if you are going to support your opinion.. all I am saying is be in defense mode.. rather than criticism mode. If only a select few are disagree with something.. then it's safe to say that's something's good. Same if everyone's hated it so far. This goes with movies too.. If a movie is a critical success, it still gets bad reviews here and there.. but overall it is considered well deserved.

sueworld
12-11-07, 05:31 PM
Sorry love, you misunderstood me. I meant this board is an example of people having different opinions on things, not just the comic. I know I'm in the minority on this board. But outside it, not so much.

I've found more folks to be more critical of the comic outside this board, then here.

In fact I've just stuck a poll up on my own lj to gauge folks reactions to the series so far. For what it's worth I may post the results here when I get all the votes in. I have to say I've not taken it very seriously though. *g*

Anon
12-11-07, 05:47 PM
What do you mean by 'outside of this board'? The problem is that, as a rule, people won't mingle in crowds they don't belong to, so posting a poll on your live journal is going to bias the sample. On this board we have a wide range of fans and I think that the results here can be said to be representative of the fandom. Can you claim that the people likely to respond to your poll will be representative of Buffy fans in general?

KingofCretins
12-11-07, 06:05 PM
I've found more folks to be more critical of the comic outside this board, then here.

I've found Season 8 to be Dark Horse's first top 10 monthly seller since 1994 :)

sueworld
12-11-07, 06:46 PM
What do you mean by 'outside of this board'? The problem is that, as a rule, people won't mingle in crowds they don't belong to, so posting a poll on your live journal is going to bias the sample. On this board we have a wide range of fans and I think that the results here can be said to be representative of the fandom. Can you claim that the people likely to respond to your poll will be representative of Buffy fans in general?

No of course not. *g*

But it'll be interesting to see what others think. LJ is a very different fan 'arena' then places such as this, and is one of the most active places left that deal with fandom in general, let alone the Buffyverse.

On the whole the age of these fans seem to be older then on here as well, so that will bring a slightly different angle to things if nothing else.

I'm going to take the results with a strong pinch of salt, especially as I wasn't that fussy with how I worded the questions in the first place. :lol:

Nostalgia
12-11-07, 07:46 PM
So Live Journal accounts for the population of Buffy fanbase that isn't a part of this board?

:roll:

The other funny thing that you said was that you're indicating that people who have enjoyed season 8 so far are younger than you are..

So.. season 8 only appeals to younger aged? You're above it because what.. It's "immature" ? If others were older? They wouldn't enjoy it as much?

Sorry, but that's not only an insult to the fans on here.. but an insult to Joss. Apparently his work is puerile now..

So far you have not backed up your statement once so ever.. as Kings has previously stated. You also have a superiority complex to everyone on this board..

You honestly think outside this board, season 8 has not been enjoyed by fans?

http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11461.html
http://www.whedon.info/Buffy-Season-8-Tv-Series-Top-10.html
http://windyharbor.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/review-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-season-8-episode-1/

KingofCretins
12-11-07, 07:51 PM
I honestly don't even know why you read it, if it just inspires unreasoned hate and the urge to inflict it on others.

sueworld
12-11-07, 09:22 PM
So.. season 8 only appeals to younger aged? You're above it because what.. It's "immature" ? If others were older? They wouldn't enjoy it as much?

Sorry, but that's not only an insult to the fans on here.. but an insult to Joss. Apparently his work is puerile now..

Did I actually say anything like that? No. Did I even intone that? No. I simply stated that there is a definite age difference between a board such as this one and the likes of LJ. The same way it's been noted that more young peple use sites such as myspace, then other sites, and that their attitudes/likes/dislikes reflect that. You seem to be saying thats a bad thing, not I.

You seem to be jumping to an awful of a lot of conclusions, all of which are completely wrong. I also think that your own dislike of me is clouding your judgment here.


You also have a superiority complex to everyone on this board..


Good lord, and you have the audacity to say that, considering the way you're coming across to me just because I don't happen to share your opinions? Do you even understand the meaning of free speech? You know nothing about me, so how you've managed to jump to these conclusions so quickly astounds me. My main interest in this site is the fanart section, which I try and post in as I have so much to learn from the other superb artists there. But then of course that wouldn't fit in with the picture that you seem to have painted of me, would it? *g*

In the 'real world' not everyone thinks the same about how they perceive things. A shock, I know.


You honestly think outside this board, season 8 has not been enjoyed by fans?

Not everyone, and whats wrong with that? Did I not get 'the memo' or something? Did Joss send one out demanding that everyone better think this comic is faultless or he'll 'send the boys round?

I said earlier that I was the minority to think this on this board, but you obviously failed to read that section.

We're all entitled to think what we want of something. I simply don't understand why either you or King can't seem to grasp that concept, really I don't. *shakes head in disbelief*


honestly don't even know why you read it, if it just inspires unreasoned hate and the urge to inflict it on others.

'Inflict it'. Good grief. I'm just posting my take on it, like you're entitled to do. How many more times do I have to say that?! This is a place to discuss such thing, or are only we mean to post only positive things all the time here. Even if we don't believe them? Sorry I thought this was a place for open debate. Obviously I was wrong.

And finally either of you please don't put words in my mouth. You both come across in a less then flattering light when you do that, to say the least.

I'm sorry that both you and King have such a dislike of my opinions. Maybe it would be a good idea to ignore my posts completely from now on for both our sanities.

KingofCretins
12-11-07, 09:42 PM
Every discussion of Season 8 comes to the same thing... heads, it's wrong, tails, it's not right. How much of a discussion can there be if any direction the conversation goes, you always land back at a general "Season 8 blows, and that's just how I feel" place?

Coming back to the overall reception of Season 8, EW put it on it's top 10 'must list' or whatever it's called (before the movie reviews) back when it came out, after 8.02 came out I think. I've mentioned the sales numbers. I don't think there's been a single issue that's been outside the top 12 for the month, which is *un-be-liev-a-ble* for a book not published by DC or Marvel. It's critically praised, insofar as comic books get reviews ("Wizard", for instance).

sueworld
12-11-07, 09:51 PM
Good for the comic then.

I imagine loads of folks are enjoying it. This latest Faith arc (which weirdly enough isn't even penned by Joss) I'm beginning to enjoy somewhat. I'm hoping that'll enjoy more of it from now on, but we'll see.

KingofCretins
12-11-07, 09:54 PM
Vaughan is a very tight writer who, I think, might have even more comic book background than Joss does, in addition to the TV sensibilities from being on the "Lost" staff. I've been very pleased. Next up after two from Joss will be Drew Goddard writing the characters again. Goddard wrote the Season 7 episodes "Selfless", "Conversations with Dead People", "Never Leave Me", "Lies My Parents Told Me", and "Dirty Girls", and will be penning 8.12 through 8.15 this season.

To the topic itself, I'm wondering whether or not the Buffy and Willow dynamics will be interrelated with the Xander and Dawn ones, or if it'll be Buffy and Willow out on their own adventure and Xander and Dawn talking things over at the BHC.

Also, what is Dawn going to do for shelter in winter?

Nostalgia
12-11-07, 10:10 PM
Sueworld.. I'm sorry if I judged you.. but all I know of you is your comments so far.. and I don't dislike you at all.. I just disagree with the way you've approached the situation.

I was mainly upset by your age comment.. I found that insulting very much so. Sorry if I bum rushed you with negativity, I didn't mean to degrade your character or anything.. I just was upset from the comment mentioned.

As for the episode.. I find myself wondering what he means: "a person from the past."

Weredog
12-11-07, 11:03 PM
To the topic itself, I'm wondering whether or not the Buffy and Willow dynamics will be interrelated with the Xander and Dawn ones, or if it'll be Buffy and Willow out on their own adventure and Xander and Dawn talking things over at the BHC.

Hm, it'd be interesting if Buffy and Willow's adventure would somehow lead Dawn's reveal to Xander. I don't know how, but it would be impressive if it could be pulled off. Reading the summary from DarkHorse, it sounds like it won't be though. They say "Willow and Buffy do their thing. Meanwhile, back in land of Scots...."
Here's to hoping otherwise!


Also, what is Dawn going to do for shelter in winter?

hahahahahahahahahahahah!!

Enisy
12-11-07, 11:11 PM
I've noticed a large chunk of the Buffy fanbase is not reading Season 8 at all, though, because they can't hook into a universe without the actors, or with Jeanty's mediocre art. So I don't know if it's an accurate statement to say that most of the fanbase is enjoying it, if you consider that many of them are unwilling to take the plunge and read it in the first place. (For the record, I am fairly satisfied with what I've seen so far. Just calling it as I see it.)

Nostalgia
12-11-07, 11:28 PM
Well, I took a poll and the results were 20 to 7..

I posted reviews and sales results..

I don't know what else you want..

vampmogs
12-11-07, 11:57 PM
I've noticed a large chunk of the Buffy fanbase is not reading Season 8 at all, though, because they can't hook into a universe without the actors, or with Jeanty's mediocre art. So I don't know if it's an accurate statement to say that most of the fanbase is enjoying it, if you consider that many of them are unwilling to take the plunge and read it in the first place. (For the record, I am fairly satisfied with what I've seen so far. Just calling it as I see it.)

I think what they meant was most of the fanbase who are reading the comics enjoy it. :)

I must say I find it a little aggravating that people aren't willing to even give it a try and read the comics because they are convinced they won't like them because they are a comic. I'll be the first to say I wasn't sure if I'd like it, I had my concerns, but gave it a try and love it to death. Some of these people probably won't, but as fans of the show you'd think they'd at least give it a try.

Nostalgia
12-11-07, 11:58 PM
That's what I was thinking..

It's like.. you call yourself a die hard and don't even try the comics?

vampmogs
13-11-07, 12:06 AM
It's like.. you call yourself a die hard and don't even try the comics?

Admittedly I feel the same way. Though I don't agree with pretty much anything that Sue has to say on the comics, at least she has given them a try which is more than I can say for other fans out there.

My problem isn't with fans who haven't read it (though I don't see how curiosity as a Btvs fan alone wouldn't urge them to do so) but fans who haven't read it but have criticised it. That to me is as stupid as saying you hate Ats before ever watching it, or hate s7 of Btvs before ever watching it.

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 12:12 AM
Well.. even with those who have tried.. there's much bias when into the comic.. I don't count reading it and halfway thinking it's bad because it doesn't move and make noises eligible.

sueworld
13-11-07, 12:24 AM
Well here's another persons take on why they don't like it.

Now don't jump all over me again for posting this, but you did seem to want to know what others thought. This comment was left on my lj today regarding this subject.



The comics continue to disappoint me. Vaughn's storyline is better than Whedon's, so far, but even my "better" is lackluster praise. It's got some stuff in it I'd be embarrassed to encounter in fanfic. And it's thin. A month of waiting for about ten minutes of story... I'm never satisfied. I know that comics don't have to be like this, so I don't think it's the fault of the medium.

Whedon seems to have forgotten his own canon. Total agreement with the comment above about the S4 point about the Initiative. I mean, dude, you forgot a whole season arc? What? The thing with Warren being retconned back into existence was more forgivable, but still kinda *boring*. Resurrect one of the more dull and cliched characters, and then kill one of the most interesting? What is he thinking?


Let me reiterate, that wasn't my take on it, but someones else's.

KingofCretins
13-11-07, 12:32 AM
Whedon seems to have forgotten his own canon. Total agreement with the comment above about the S4 point about the Initiative. I mean, dude, you forgot a whole season arc?

Since there are already obvious manifest differences between the Initiative and Twilight, as well as the tone and purpose of the two arcs, why shouldn't this opinion just be dismissed as uninformed? It sounds like exactly what Vampmogs described -- criticism without actually reading it, or at least doing more than blowing through it.

sueworld
13-11-07, 12:37 AM
Believe me, they've read them.

here's just one last one. This coming a wonderful fan writer on lj...


It's a nice what-if AU, some of the issues have been really good and I'd rather have it than nothing, but so far it reads more like "OK, here's a hint of what we might have done if the show had continued" than an actual continuation. The medium is way too one-dimensional, and the inconsistencies (both character- and plot-related) aren't helping much either. I don't doubt Joss' ability to spin a yarn, but it feels like me like he's no longer completely in touch with the characters - their banter is OK, but their motivations seem way off at times. And since he admits that he's forgotten key plotpoints from the TV show, I don't see how he can possibly hope to sell the comics as canon...

Once again, not my comment on the matter.

KingofCretins
13-11-07, 12:41 AM
Honestly, how can a reasonable person actually read for detail and think that the Initiative story, either in form or purpose, has *anything* do with the Twilight story so far? The only scrutiny of any kind it holds up to is "hey, those d00ds have teh guns!" Any deeper analysis at all and the comparison falls apart.

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 12:43 AM
So there are harsh criticisms from your friends on Live Journal..

What makes it different from the loads of people that love it on there?

Obviously there will be enough people that don't like it..

but the overall scheme of things is that many enjoy the season so far..

I'd like to speak with these people.

sueworld
13-11-07, 12:45 AM
Sorry King, my bad, that last one was in partial response to this other comment left by another poster who said this about 'high tec Buffy'...



Okay, let me just point out that the whole story arc with the Initiative was there to prove that technology and big guns didn't work against the supernatural, so what are Buffy & co. doing going high tech?

sueworld
13-11-07, 12:47 AM
I'd like to speak with these people.

Get a free lj love and off you go. Theres a whole other world out there.

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 12:49 AM
Can I have a code?

sueworld
13-11-07, 12:51 AM
Oh you don't need them anymore. LJ's are free now. It's only if you want all the extras that it costs money.

It's very easy to set one up. I have three, plus I run a couple of communities.

KingofCretins
13-11-07, 12:54 AM
At the very best, they seem disinterested in looking at the Season on its own merits -- can't imagine what's to talk about over there.

sueworld
13-11-07, 12:58 AM
Well it depends on what your interests are. You find on lj that folks seem to group togther depending on which character they like, but there are com's that deal with the show as well as the comics as a whole.

I can list some if you're interested.

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 01:02 AM
Isn't LJ just a way for people to blog?

Where are communities involved?

It's not myspace..

sueworld
13-11-07, 01:08 AM
I look upon lj as a lot 'little islands' that slowly get to know other and end eventually group together under interests.

'It is a lot different to being a aboard of course.

Are we allowed to link to elsewhere on here? I'm never sure what the rights and wrong are in this set up.

One of the Buffy comic com's is called newly_legion. Go to the Live Journal site and stick that name in the search engine and it give you a link to it.

vampmogs
13-11-07, 01:37 AM
In response to a few points made in those comments;


don't doubt Joss' ability to spin a yarn, but it feels like me like he's no longer completely in touch with the characters - their banter is OK, but their motivations seem way off at times. And since he admits that he's forgotten key plotpoints from the TV show, I don't see how he can possibly hope to sell the comics as canon...

Firstly, we haven't seen what has happened to these characters for a year and a half since 'Chosen.' So acting as if they should be exactly as we remember them, and thus acting accordingly to how they were last seen in 'Chosen' is like saying s6 Buffy should act exactly like late s4 Buffy, which we know due to circumstances isn't the case. Why should this be any different? She has changed, as did Buffy every year throughout the show, s4 Buffy would have never done and acted in the way s6 Buffy did.

Furthermore, Whedon screwing up an inconsitency with the First is nothing new, he did so after 'Amends' by stating the First can't touch anything in season seven, when the First was clearly seen running it's fingers through Angel's hair and leading his hands down to his side back in s3. Yet, no one dares argues wether or not s7 of Btvs is canon, it seems like the poster has issues with the idea of canon in a new medium than anything else.


Okay, let me just point out that the whole story arc with the Initiative was there to prove that technology and big guns didn't work against the supernatural, so what are Buffy & co. doing going high tech?

"Sigh"

Buffy is going hi tech so that she can monitor other slayer cells in the areas and to protect the boundaries of the BHC. She has never used a "gun" once in s8, rather the tool she used was to disarm a portal which it did perfectly, proving that high tech weaponary can be used in the supernatural world. Everything else we've seen, including the slayers at the high tech BHC has involved slayers using medievil weaponary, like on the show to fend of an attacking Zombie army and to guard the permiters with Renee and the unknown slayer carrying a crossbow and a large battle axe.

These are the kind of comments that make no sense, it's as if these people simply aren't paying attention to the comics at all.

Maggie
13-11-07, 02:20 AM
Hi folks -- I'm a newbie to this forum, but I know some of you from the Dark Horse site.

I've been following the LJ community on the comics, and the reactions are pretty negative. In addition, the communities dedicated to the comics just aren't very active. So not only is there a negative attitude, there's an even stronger sense of boredom. Only three reviews of the latest comic popped up on my flist -- down from the number that appeared after the release of the first few issues.

My own attitude is mixed. The opening arc suffered from first episode syndrome. There might well be lots of seeds planted that will get unfolded, but not a lot to chew on in terms of the issues themselves. I tried reading around the 'net to find people actively interested in the comics, to get insights that I was missing. But it was all pretty thin. The current arc is quite different. In the first arc, we have a whole lot of mysteries, not least of which is how the characters got from The Chosen to where they are now. But not the sort of depth in layers that makes the series so endlessly thought-provoking. Even over on Dark Horse, where people are positive -- the conversation inevitably reverts to discussions of the series. Cause the comics just don't have enough material to sustain long discussions/debates. Least that's what it seems like to me. (Though I'm new over there, maybe there was good stuff over the summer I missed).

The current arc is very different. It clearly continues interesting themes from the series, and is developing in a way that is thought-provoking and which has generated some good discussion. And already it's helping me to look back at the first arc and get a better feel for some of those 'seeds' that were planted. So now I'm much more optimistic about the whole thing than I was over the summer.

Back to the LJ reaction. Here are some of the complaints (most of which I don't subscribe to, or at least would want to qualify a good deal):

1. The comics don't deliver the feel of the series. The art work doesn't capture things the way the actors did.

2. How disappointing that Buffy still has nothing like the normal life she always wanted. And does the comics even treat this as an issue?

3. Strong opposition to the 'damseling' of Buffy in the kiss of true love magic particularly, throughout the arc generally. Sexist to have her in a nightie. Sexist to do the whole kiss of true love thing. De-protagonizing her.

4. The Warren retcon raised huge howls. Undermines Willows arc. Shows that Joss isn't interested in continuity (an underlying concern given the big leap forward in time and the near total black-out on information about how they got from one place to the other).

5. Willow's magic is way too cheap. She gets tortured and leaps up with out a scratch. She's depicted as so powerful that it's going to be hard to explain why she can't just fix everything easily.

6. General Voll is a wooden villain, just the usual stereotypic evil military guy.

7. All the high-tech detracts from the way the 'verse was originally conceived.

8. Complaints about characterization. Especially Xander, who is often viewed as fanboyish wish-fulfillment on the part of Joss.

9. Giant Dawn. Yawn.

With respect to the Faith arc

10. Completely lame presentation of the British aristocracy.

11. Faith has been reverted back to B4/A1 Faith, not the Faith who went through A4/B7. It's OOC for her to agree to the mission -- she wouldn't lightly take on the task of killing a human given her history and development.

***
Those are the ones that come to mind. Like I said, for me the Faith arc is delivering nicely. I don't think it's a reversion in character -- not least because as the comics show, Faith isn't so quick off the mark to ice Gigi. And I love the complexity of Buffy/Faith/Gigi we got in the last issue.

The one thing that seems to generate praise here, but which leaves me cold, is that it's nice to see Scooby rapport again. My unease with this is that what I wanted was the story of how they found their way back to it (which we might still get), not an in media res jump into a newly happy Scooby family. Best way to summarize this reservation: I don't want them to jump BACK to the early seasons, I want them to go FORWARD to the deeper relationships possible after the hurt and betrayals of the last few years of the show. But given the quality we're seeing in the Faith arc, I'm thinking that we're going to get that stuff about the Scoobies as well.

Sorry for going so long. Just thought that the different reactions elsewhere might be of interest here.

vampmogs
13-11-07, 03:07 AM
Hi folks -- I'm a newbie to this forum, but I know some of you from the Dark Horse site.

Welcome to BuffyForums Maggie :wave: Nice to see you hear!


Back to the LJ reaction. Here are some of the complaints (most of which I don't subscribe to, or at least would want to qualify a good deal):

I'm going to reply to some of these points whilst understanding they aren't your own views or opinions, so please don't think I am replying to these complaints as if they are yours :)


2. How disappointing that Buffy still has nothing like the normal life she always wanted. And does the comics even treat this as an issue?

IMO whilst Buffy may have somewhat wanted a normal life, what was even more important than that was her ability to *choose* what kind of life she wanted. That is the big difference between now and then, Buffy has that *choice.* In that sense that is what Joss was trying to achieve here, the freedom to do anything she wanted, I don't see it as disapointing she didn't abandon the idea of being a slayer at all.


3. Strong opposition to the 'damseling' of Buffy in the kiss of true love magic particularly, throughout the arc generally. Sexist to have her in a nightie. Sexist to do the whole kiss of true love thing. De-protagonizing her.

This is where I feel people are being overly critical of the comics on purpose. Buffy has needed saving plenty of times, as for example when she was turned into a rat, when Xander saved her from Katrina, when Faith saved her from Trick ect. Yet, they seem to have an issue with this because they can. It has become clear now Joss has once again subverted conventions by making it not a prince, but a princess who awakens the girl from her coma, I'm surprised these people haven't picked up on that.

As far as the nightie goes, I really fail to see how it is sexist to show a woman in womanly clothing? Perhaps Buffy should wear completely uni sex nightware just to keep this people happy :rollseyes:


4. The Warren retcon raised huge howls. Undermines Willows arc. Shows that Joss isn't interested in continuity (an underlying concern given the big leap forward in time and the near total black-out on information about how they got from one place to the other).

These people are being as impatient as some people in the letter columns of the comics. Allie points out, what has happened between 'Chosen' and 'The Long Way Home' will be revealed, but obviously not in the first issue, these people are expecting way too much. I also think this is further evidence of them being overly critical for the hell of it, the series has never revealed anything in the first episode of a season. We are yet to even know who brought Angel back from Hell and why or how? We didn't know it was the First in 'Lessons' up until 'Never Leave Me' and I saw no complaints.

As far as the inconsistency, as I mentioned above there have always been inconsistencies, particularly about the First, it shouldn't be as big as a deal for these people as they make it out to be. Willow's arc won't be undermined either, do these people really expect Whedon to just let her off the hook because she tried "but failed" to kill someone?


5. Willow's magic is way too cheap. She gets tortured and leaps up with out a scratch. She's depicted as so powerful that it's going to be hard to explain why she can't just fix everything easily.

Willow already has, she can only do so much, and it was pointed out in 8.04 she can't bring herself back from death so she is in no way unkillable. When our characters get stronger, so do the big bads.


6. General Voll is a wooden villain, just the usual stereotypic evil military guy.

Joss has stated that Voll and other characters be heaps fleshed out but characters he is creating now most certainly are, and well earn the fan's respect. Voll is no more fleshed out right now than your average monster of the week on the show and I never heard any complaints.


7. All the high-tech detracts from the way the 'verse was originally conceived.

The same way Angel went to Wolfram and Hart? A visible shift from how the series was originally conceived, as a detective drama?


8. Complaints about characterization. Especially Xander, who is often viewed as fanboyish wish-fulfillment on the part of Joss.

Ah yes because it must be a fanboys dream for a male to be shown in a position of power, and that is in no way insulting to male fans of the show everywhere.



Sorry for going so long. Just thought that the different reactions elsewhere might be of interest here.

The mods on this site love well thought of posts, I'm sure you'll do fine here :D

sueworld
13-11-07, 03:08 AM
Welcome to the board Maggie.


Best way to summarize this reservation: I don't want them to jump BACK to the early seasons, I want them to go FORWARD to the deeper relationships possible after the hurt and betrayals of the last few years of the show. But given the quality we're seeing in the Faith arc, I'm thinking that we're going to get that stuff about the Scoobies as well.

Yeah, I agree with that as well.

KingofCretins
13-11-07, 03:12 AM
Maggie, things work much differently (read: much, much better) here than on Dark Horse. You might want to check out the Forum Rules and Posting Guidelines (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=303) as well, since, again, unlike Dark Horse -- we have some :)

Maggie
13-11-07, 03:34 AM
Maggie, things work much differently (read: much, much better) here than on Dark Horse. You might want to check out the Forum Rules and Posting Guidelines (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=303) as well, since, again, unlike Dark Horse -- we have some :)

Thanks. Good set of rules. Especially glad about the request that posts be written in intelligible English.

Now I have to try one of these cool icon thingies:

:happydance: I'm so glad to be here.

Maggie
13-11-07, 03:44 AM
Welcome to BuffyForums Maggie :wave: Nice to see you hear!

Thanks! Can't figure out how to do the wavy icon, but this is me, waving back.

I agree with you that a lot of the complaints are premature. To be fair, for people used to a new episode a week, the comics unfold at a glacial pace. My unhappiness with the comics in the summer was largely about that. I could tell myself that this is all set up, that things will be expanded in interesting and creative ways -- but it's hard to keep up enthusiasm for such a long time. So that's part of it.

Another part of the negativity is about turf wars, I think. Joss seemed to have deeded the 'verse over to the fans a few years ago. People have written a lot of fics. People have developed entrenched interpretations of the show. All of that is now subject to Jossing. So I read a good bit of the negativity as resistance to that. An oft-repeated refrain is that the comics are just another fanfic AU, to take or leave as we will. I'm almost as interested in seeing how the turf war plays out as I am in seeing how the comics unfold.

vampmogs
13-11-07, 03:53 AM
Thanks! Can't figure out how to do the wavy icon, but this is me, waving back.

Just write wave inbetween : : with no spaces :) It took me years to know any of them off by heart :lol:


I agree with you that a lot of the complaints are premature. To be fair, for people used to a new episode a week, the comics unfold at a glacial pace. My unhappiness with the comics in the summer was largely about that. I could tell myself that this is all set up, that things will be expanded in interesting and creative ways -- but it's hard to keep up enthusiasm for such a long time. So that's part of it.

I understand that, by the time a new issue comes around you've pretty much run out of new things to talk about, about the previous issue because you've had a month to do just that. That I can understand, however in saying that it'd be far too rushed and silly (and practically impossible) for Whedon to spill out everything well in the first couple of issues of the season. People are expecting too much really, which surprises me given Joss' storytelling for this season seems to follow the same pattern as the televised seasons, with secrets coming out as we go along.


Another part of the negativity is about turf wars, I think. Joss seemed to have deeded the 'verse over to the fans a few years ago. People have written a lot of fics. People have developed entrenched interpretations of the show. All of that is now subject to Jossing. So I read a good bit of the negativity as resistance to that. An oft-repeated refrain is that the comics are just another fanfic AU, to take or leave as we will. I'm almost as interested in seeing how the turf war plays out as I am in seeing how the comics unfold.

That is interesting, I haven't actually thought about that before :)

Does explain why so many people seem to saying canon is up to them to decide rather than Joss which personally I can't comprehend though.

Maggie
13-11-07, 05:31 AM
Does explain why so many people seem to saying canon is up to them to decide rather than Joss which personally I can't comprehend though.

I've had this debate with others, and the problem is that there are two definitions of 'canon' in play:

1. The body of work that the author identifies as telling his story. So if Joss says that the tie-in novels aren't canon, he's saying that they aren't part of his story. It's a useful term for sorting for sorting out issues like which comic books 'count' for Joss and which don't. Fray is in. A bunch of the others aren't.

2. The body of work that a community decides to treat as extra-meaningful. In practice, what this means is that it's a text you can cite as evidence in an argument expecting others to take it as a meaningful piece of evidence. So, for example, Protestants accept a more limited set of books into their canon of the Old Testament than do Catholics. If in a theological argument a Catholic cites something from Maccabbees to a Lutheran, the Lutheran will just shrug and say "who cares". Maccabbees isn't part of the Protestant canon. So when people say that the comics aren't 'canon', what they mean is that they aren't going to accept citations from the comics as evidence in arguments about how to interpret the series. Example: I was having an argument the other day with a RL friend about Not Fade Away. I cited the fact that in the up-coming 'canonical' (definition 1) AtF comics we find out that LA was sent to hell as a result of Angel's actions. My friend just shrugged and said he's not going to read the comics and they don't "count". For the purposes of that discussion, I couldn't treat the comic as canon. This definition of canon *is* decided on by the community, and not by the author.

The turf war is about whether the comics will be canon in the sense of the second definition. And I'll be interested to see how it plays out.

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 05:31 AM
Feedback:


1. The comics don't deliver the feel of the series. The art work doesn't capture things the way the actors did.

Considering you know.. it's a "comic..", how exactly are we to say they don't capture the feelings the actors did? Will the art ever? If this is the case, I'm getting the impression these reviewers are already bailing out on the idea of season 8 solely because it's through a different medium.


2. How disappointing that Buffy still has nothing like the normal life she always wanted. And does the comics even treat this as an issue?

? How much do you want packed into one issue? If we found out Buffy was livineg the life she wanted.. would there still be a Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Would there be the need for season 8? Once again, I notice a negativity towards the actual need for a season 8.. rather than a review of it itself.


3. Strong opposition to the 'damseling' of Buffy in the kiss of true love magic particularly, throughout the arc generally. Sexist to have her in a nightie. Sexist to do the whole kiss of true love thing. De-protagonizing her.

These people must have hated season 6 huh..


4. The Warren retcon raised huge howls. Undermines Willows arc. Shows that Joss isn't interested in continuity (an underlying concern given the big leap forward in time and the near total black-out on information about how they got from one place to the other).


I do agree that the mishap with Warren being brought back is slightly of annoyance.. but I'm not going to let the fact that Warren's appearance has been shown in the First a few times drag the series down. I honestly don't have a problem with Warren being back.. considering he's a small part in the entire season so far.

To the other idea: Complaining about the time period missed between season 7 (close) and season 8 (open) is like complaining about the summers between seasons. Sure there's things that have happened.. but either they haven't been important enough to tell or will slowly be progressed through the story. An example is the next episode.. we find out much about where Willow's been, her relationship, etc.


5. Willow's magic is way too cheap. She gets tortured and leaps up with out a scratch. She's depicted as so powerful that it's going to be hard to explain why she can't just fix everything easily.

What does this have to with the comic or season 8? Remember in season 7, when she changes an entire group of girls into full blown slayers?


6. General Voll is a wooden villain, just the usual stereotypic evil military guy.

What is he supposed to be? Almost all small parted military guys act in a stereotypical fashion. If it's the "Buffy vs the Army" idea that they're disliking.. There's much more to it that just sterotypical villians. We've obviously seen Roden and a new villian are behind the scenes with the symbol involved.


7. All the high-tech detracts from the way the 'verse was originally conceived.

Detracts? A helicopter and the propeller gun thingy' from one issue has clouded that much opinion? :( I'm sorry to those..





11. Faith has been reverted back to B4/A1 Faith, not the Faith who went through A4/B7. It's OOC for her to agree to the mission -- she wouldn't lightly take on the task of killing a human given her history and development.

Remember in Touched? Remember Empty Places? Faith still had concerns with not only herself but her relationship with Buffy. She was questioning her motives as well as Buffy.. beginning to believe that Buffy was out to get her. Like she wanted her out of the picture still.. Buffy had a problem with Faith staying there and protecting the girls.. still criticizing her as a murderer. All Brian is doing is capturing this and delving into it. Faith and Buffy always still had a problem with each other despite their strong friendship inside. They understand each other. The fact that Buffy went overboard about Faith working for Giles was more on Giles' part.. she doesn't like the idea that her ex-watcher is calling upon Faith over her.. I know I wouldn't.

No offense.. but besides maybe problems with the artwork and the mishap with Warren.. I am still convinced these people are just against the idea of season 8 to begin with, and are portraying these ideas with petty faults and unimportant ailments.

KingofCretins
13-11-07, 05:35 AM
Canon is objective and is determined solely by declaration of the creator of the material. Everything else is wishful thinking.

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 05:37 AM
I personally do not understand the second idea that's been thrown for canon. Your dislike for something or regard or interest for something does not decide if it is canon or not. If this the case there would be many people who would not consider season 4 or 7 canon simply because they are considered the weaker ones.
That idea is filled with holes and makes no sense to me. It comes down to accepting a comic as a medium. People don't like the idea of art being portrayed through stills.. and that is evident with the "LJ" complaints as well.

The creator has a choice of whether or not something is canon. If he says it is, then it is. Canon is not based on interpretation. If this was the case, then is Spike's decision to go to the demon not for his soul?? Even if Joss said so? If it's not cited by the show, Joss still has control.

KingofCretins
13-11-07, 05:39 AM
I don't care for how Buffy was acting with Faith there, but she *had* just been kidnapped, made to throw up, sucker-punched and attacked, and then thrown out of a window into a pool. That would have gotten my irish up, too.

Maggie
13-11-07, 06:59 AM
Canon is objective and is determined solely by declaration of the creator of the material. Everything else is wishful thinking.

By definition 1 that's exactly right. But the original meaning of the term 'canon' is definition 2 -- and that's decided by the community.

You are just speaking at cross-purposes with someone if they are talking definition #2 and you insist on definition #1. Joss can't dictate to the community which parts of his work they think are excellent enough to take seriously as 'canon' in the second sense.

Right now it looks like there could be a split in fandom between those whose discussions and fanfic will be based on the whole (definition 1) canon, and those who only treat the series as (definition 2) canon. And in practice, the people in the former camp can say "joss says" tell they are blue in the face -- they won't be able to force the people in the latter camp to take seriously texts that they do not wish to take seriously. Disputes over 'canon' often divides communities, cause it signals a disagreement about the groundrules for discussion.

Anon
13-11-07, 07:47 AM
Another part of the negativity is about turf wars, I think. Joss seemed to have deeded the 'verse over to the fans a few years ago. People have written a lot of fics. People have developed entrenched interpretations of the show. All of that is now subject to Jossing. So I read a good bit of the negativity as resistance to that. An oft-repeated refrain is that the comics are just another fanfic AU, to take or leave as we will. I'm almost as interested in seeing how the turf war plays out as I am in seeing how the comics unfold.Actually, one thing I like is that much of the fanon got Jossed. I hate all those fics where all hell suddenly let loose as a result of the spell because 'they upset the balance!!!1one'. The ones where the whole thing was a scheme set up by the First are even worse. They are just completely OTT.

Enisy
13-11-07, 10:20 AM
*hugs Maggie* You'll like it much better than Dark Horse here, trust me. :)


You are just speaking at cross-purposes with someone if they are talking definition #2 and you insist on definition #1. Joss can't dictate to the community which parts of his work they think are excellent enough to take seriously as 'canon' in the second sense.

I don't think it's the difference in quality, but the difference in medium that sparks off most of the protests. Joss's Buffy started as a TV show, so it's to be expected that many people consider the animated visuals inseparable from the story, and the actors inseparable from the characters. I've seen arguments that Sarah Michelle Gellar is not Buffy without the writing, and vice versa, the written character is not Buffy without Sarah Michelle Gellar (so if you're watching Sarah on Scooby Doo, that's not Buffy, and if you're experiencing the writing without Sarah, that's not Buffy either). That makes sense, to a point, if you consider how much the Buffy canon has changed due to the actors: Spike would not have made it past "disposable villain" if James Marsters hadn't been such a charismatic actor, Angel would not have lasted more than a couple of episodes if the fans hadn't responded to David's good looks and stage presence, Willow would not have relinquished her "geek" status if Alyson Hannigan hadn't become bold and sexy in real life, etc.

The opposing argument is that whatever Joss deems canon, is canon. However, Joss himself acknowledged that he doesn't expect everyone to accept Season 8 of Buffy or Season 6 of Angel as canon just because he says so.

Joss Whedon: The people who don't want to accept the comic book don't have to, and the people who want more, they shall have it.

ciderdrinker
13-11-07, 10:58 AM
I have to think about all this discussion about whether the comics are canon -

If this story was being played out by the actors in episodes on your TV, would you doubt that it was canon? If by some miracle all the scooby actors decided to return to the series, Joss was given much more money to run it and a network who loved it, would we be still having this discussion?

I think Maggie said it all really:-


Joss seemed to have deeded the 'verse over to the fans a few years ago. People have written a lot of fics. People have developed entrenched interpretations of the show. All of that is now subject to Jossing. So I read a good bit of the negativity as resistance to that.

The fact that it's a new medium, the fact that the show ended some time ago, and the fact that there are so many interpretations/fics out there about what would've happened after S7 is clouding people's judgement on the matter IMO. If the S8 story was being shown on TV straight after the end of S7 (i.e. it had never ended) then the fans wouldn't doubt that this was canon.

Joss is running the comic exactly like he did the show, he's in overall charge of it and probably knows exactly where the season will go, but cedes some of the writing to other talented people. Likewise the art - to me that's like him employing a director to represent his vision. How is any of that not going to be canon?

Oh and just like in the actual TV series, sometimes we're gonna like it, sometimes we're not.

sueworld
13-11-07, 11:11 AM
The opposing argument is that whatever Joss deems canon, is canon. However, Joss himself acknowledged that he doesn't expect everyone to accept Season 8 of Buffy or Season 6 of Angel as canon just because he says so.

Joss Whedon: The people who don't want to accept the comic book don't have to, and the people who want more, they shall have it.


Exactly. It seems that Joss is more understanding about the nature of his fandom, then some of his own fans.

Maggie
13-11-07, 11:26 AM
I have to think about all this discussion about whether the comics are canon -

If this story was being played out by the actors in episodes on your TV, would you doubt that it was canon? If by some miracle all the scooby actors decided to return to the series, Joss was given much more money to run it and a network who loved it, would we be still having this discussion?

I think Maggie said it all really:-



The fact that it's a new medium, the fact that the show ended some time ago, and the fact that there are so many interpretations/fics out there about what would've happened after S7 is clouding people's judgement on the matter IMO. If the S8 story was being shown on TV straight after the end of S7 (i.e. it had never ended) then the fans wouldn't doubt that this was canon.

Joss is running the comic exactly like he did the show, he's in overall charge of it and probably knows exactly where the season will go, but cedes some of the writing to other talented people. Likewise the art - to me that's like him employing a director to represent his vision. How is any of that not going to be canon?

Oh and just like in the actual TV series, sometimes we're gonna like it, sometimes we're not.

I think you are spot on with this. It's the shift in medium and especially the time gap that opens up room for the question. There are enough people out there who don't like the idea of comics and/or who are pretty much set with canon as it is to create noticeable resistance to accepting the comics as canon.

The comics won't become (definition 2) canon by having Joss or anybody else declare that they're canon. They'll become canon because people start talking about them and writing fics based on them and so on. If the comics invite the same level of engagement as the series, the resistance to them will naturally break down. Though I pause here slightly -- TV just has a big audience and is more accessible for most people. So it could be that however great the comics turn out to be, there will be significant chunks of the fandom that aren't enaged with them. Shrugs. I'm not so good with crystal ball stuff.

vampmogs
13-11-07, 11:29 AM
My local comic book shop told me the other day that people have been coming in lately asking for all issues released thus far, so it appears word is getting out and people are getting more curious.

Enisy
13-11-07, 11:33 AM
Yeah, Maggie, Joss also noted in an interview that one of the downsides to the medium was the limited audience. The TV show will always be the definitive Buffy for that reason alone.

Maggie
13-11-07, 11:36 AM
Yeah, Maggie, Joss also noted in an interview that one of the downsides to the medium was the limited audience. The TV show will always be the definitive Buffy for that reason alone.

Yeah -- it's hard to imagine a marketing scheme where people can buy the complete Buffy and get 7 seasons worth of DVD's plus all the TPBs for seasons 8 and 9.

sueworld
13-11-07, 11:49 AM
Things is you're always going to have a bit of a problem. As Maggie pointed out.
Some folks may never buy them as they have never bought a comic in their life and aren't gong to start now.

Some may buy one or two and find that they're having trouble with the medium.

And some more casual fans may not even know they exist.

TV is an extremely powerful medium, and so it will take an awful lot for it to really compete with the 'parent product' so to speak.

In some ways its a case of 'does a tree make a sound when in falls if there's nobody to hear it' gag'. People can shout canon as much as they like, but if some don't buy it, or aren't even aware of them, does it really work.

ciderdrinker
13-11-07, 12:54 PM
Dragging this thread back to the question asked originally (although it is slightly off topic)

It has been mentioned that Buffy, Willow and Xander played "Anywhere But Here" is S2, but in replying to another post I stumbled on Spike saying those exact words to Angel in S5 AtS, when he's offered a chance to get away from Wolfram and Hart. Obviously, when he's saying that he's thinking of finding Buffy...just a thought!

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 03:42 PM
Cider, that's a great point.. I never thought of that. Although I'm still sure that it's far too early for Spike to be involved.

Well, that's what I said all along, that it is the change in medium that is giving people a hard time.. not the fact that people deem what is canon and what's not. Now that we have that settled, I just still don't understand the issue. If it's the casual fan, then yes. But if you're on a board of some kind discussing Buffy and it is your favorite television show.. then I would at least think you'd acknowledge the fact that there's an entire new season. As a response to Joss' comment: He knows people will still not read it simply because it's a comic and people want the television show back. I honestly saw more sympathy in it than actually declaring the situation is open-ended. Joss said it is canon, he is just giving support to those who don't want to read it simply because they've always been his fans for what, 8 years?

I'll ask this question: Are you a fan of the Buffyverse? Or are you a fan of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, the television show?

sueworld
13-11-07, 03:47 PM
Soley on the evidence I've seen so far, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, the television show. No question.

Even at their best the comics don't hold a candle to that for me, but then I'm very much a 'live action gal'. Not having an actors 'spin' on a line, definitely has taken the edge off things for me personally.

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 03:56 PM
Even so besides the comics.. Do you collect action figures, Buffy merchandise so to speak? Or are you (everyone) just a huge fan of just the show?

Meaning, before the comic had even come out.. Did you honestly have interest in it when it was announced? To me, most of the negativity is shown from before-hand.. simply because it is a comic.

sueworld
13-11-07, 04:14 PM
You obviously didn't see my post on the 'why did you buy this comic' thread, so I've brought it over..

I've been a Marvel comic fan for well over 25 years, and so when I heard another company were intending to release a series based on the show (yeah, sadly I did used to buy Darkhorse's first 'stab' at the franchise) I thought I'd give it a go.

Ironically I'd stopped buying American style comics the moment I became interested in all things Buffy, so this would have have been my first 'outing' for quite a while.

Despite my initial disappointment with the first 5 issues, I notice that things have been picking up a little since someone else has stated writing them, so we'll see how I go on, before I say enough is enough.

I also collect Buffy action figures, mainly the Sideshow 12" scale versions, although that fits in with the fact I've had a keen interest in 1/6th scale figures for quite a few years now.

I also used to try the paperbacks, but found on the whole they so so poorly written I gave them a miss. That combined with the fact I discovered the hoard of superb fan artists and fanfic writers out there on lj, and they 'fed' my addiction big time, especially with tales of a *cough* a more erotic nature. :D

Nostalgia
13-11-07, 04:17 PM
You prefer the fanfic writers over Joss? I guess if that's what you're more interested in.. maybe they're going in a direction you wanted that Joss isn't. But still, I find it very surprising.

sueworld
13-11-07, 04:23 PM
Well so far I've preferred this latest writer on the comics, and he's not Joss either. *g*

Even in the TV series I've often found myself loving episodes that weren't written by Whedon, such ones by as Jane Espenson.

There's some superb fan writers out there, as well as some truly awful ones.

Joss has to write tales that appeal to as wide an audience as possible. Fans don't have to worry about such a thing, so have the luxury of being able to center on certain select elements of the show and their characters.

vampmogs
14-11-07, 01:42 AM
Some folks may never buy them as they have never bought a comic in their life and aren't gong to start now.

That is the kind of attitude that bugs me though. Is comic a dirty word or something? I'd never bought a comic since I was about five but did so because it was Btvs and thought it deserved a chance.


Some may buy one or two and find that they're having trouble with the medium.

That I understand, though would disagree but they gave it a try at least.


And some more casual fans may not even know they exist.

It is very likely. Those that don't venture into comic shops or don't go onto the forums would have no idea about the comic.


TV is an extremely powerful medium, and so it will take an awful lot for it to really compete with the 'parent product' so to speak.

I always thought season eight was more of a gift to the die hard fans of the show anyway, as they are going to be some of the only people who read it.


In some ways its a case of 'does a tree make a sound when in falls if there's nobody to hear it' gag'. People can shout canon as much as they like, but if some don't buy it, or aren't even aware of them, does it really work.

Yeah but people might have not seen a certain episode of the show, or even a season. Does this make it any less canon?

Nostalgia
14-11-07, 01:47 AM
That goes back to what I mentioned earlier.. if that was even the case.. people could say season four and seven aren't legible for canon.. as they are considered the weakest seasons.. so they are thrown out and not canon simply because people don't want to acknowledge them? As vampmogs said.. if a person misses a season.. it's still canon. The tree falling theory does not really work in this situation because it's clear evidence that people ARE around.. just not the person who is arguing it's not canon.

sueworld
14-11-07, 02:14 AM
Yeah but people might have not seen a certain episode of the show, or even a season. Does this make it any less canon?

Oh it's canon alright, but whether these none readers will take any notice of that fact is another matter entirely.

They'll probably go on as they were before, concentrating solely on the TV show, and not worry at all to what Joss and co are getting upto now.

Weredog
15-11-07, 05:21 AM
The canonical issue with season 8 is undebatable: it is canon.
It has been authorized, recognized and accepted by Buffy the Vampire Slayer's creator Joss Whedon. It is canon.

vampmogs
15-11-07, 05:29 AM
Oh it's canon alright, but whether these none readers will take any notice of that fact is another matter entirely.

They'll probably go on as they were before, concentrating solely on the TV show, and not worry at all to what Joss and co are getting upto now.

Well yeah, that is the problem really. Joss can say it is canon and it makes it canon because he is the creator of the show, he is the only one with the authority to do that. We are just fans of his creation and it still is *his* creation.

But if people are just going to refuse to see it that way then there is a problem in that regard. All fans of the comic can do is treat it as canon and speak of it as canon, I've noticed the comics have slowly started to be added to polls in other sections of the site which is a positive sign, and as of yet no members in this board have kicked up a fuss whatsoever.

sueworld
15-11-07, 12:11 PM
Well, nobody's going to kick up about it are they. The comics are canon, but as I said before whether a load of 'old school' fans will take any notice of that fact is another thing entirely.

I thinks they're enough going on in either 'camp' to keep everybody happy really. As Joss says, "the people who don't want to accept the comic book don't have to".

vampmogs
15-11-07, 01:32 PM
Well, nobody's going to kick up about it are they. The comics are canon, but as I said before whether a load of 'old school' fans will take any notice of that fact is another thing entirely.

I thinks they're enough going on in either 'camp' to keep everybody happy really. As Joss says, "the people who don't want to accept the comic book don't have to".

Yeah but what I was trying to say was that the progression into including characters and episodes from season eight into other parts of the board has happened pretty organically, without too many people asking what it is all about or arguing that it isn't canon, which we actually had before the comics came out in this section of the site.

Nostalgia
16-11-07, 01:31 AM
Yeah but what I was trying to say was that the progression into including characters and episodes from season eight into other parts of the board has happened pretty organically, without too many people asking what it is all about or arguing that it isn't canon, which we actually had before the comics came out in this section of the site.

Yeah I definetly agree people are starting to pick up on the entire idea. One thing I'm trying to do is add them to the games.. especially the versus games because they do deserve recognition. By the time every arc is finished.. we will end up with 22 solid episodes.

Weredog
16-11-07, 05:25 AM
Does anyone kinda feel discouraged that 6 months since the first issue's release, we've only had 3 'episodes?' :D

Nostalgia
16-11-07, 06:47 AM
I know what you mean.. and I guess it is kind of tough, but really the standalones will speed things up.. and I've gotten past it. At first I thought it would be impossible and I'd never hook on.. but I'm so tied up in life that the months just fly by.. and every month is welcomed with "Oh yeah... there's a new issue out!"

Weredog
16-11-07, 05:09 PM
I'm completely the opposite. Every morning I wake and go "27 days, 13 hours, 6 minutes til the release."
I am surprised I'm caught up in it as well. It was only with "No Future for You, pat 1" that really made me anxious about the next issue. I want to read "A Beautiful Sunset" now!