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Sosa lola
16-10-10, 03:48 PM
Twenty Reasons to Why Xander is So Awesome



http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/Arrohy/XanderLove.png
Thanks to moscow_watcher for making this lovely poster and lusciousspike for reading this.



1) He's brave.

Lack of superpowers doesn't stop him from risking his life to save his friends, his enemies, and the world. Xander had just learned that vampires existed yet he followed Buffy into the sewers to rescue Jesse. Xander could have run away when the old high school started collapsing, but instead he jumped to save Spike regardless of the falling rocks.


2) He's loyal.

Xander had been offered to leave the fight and run away, to live a normal life away from all the monsters and death threats, but Xander rejected Anya's offer and stayed. He'd never leave his friends no matter how tempting it is. Xander could have started over new after Chosen. After all he lost, no one would blame him for quitting, but here he is, helping Buffy setting an organization in Scotland.


3) He's attracted to strong women.

Strong women turn him on: Slayers, demons, and head cheerleaders. She's got to be confident and tough. Just hearing that Kendra is a Slayer made Xander interested, but once he realized she's insecure around men, he lost interest.


4) He's got no problem following strong women.

Xander looks up to Buffy, values her opinion and follows her lead no matter what. When Buffy dies, he elects Willow as their leader, because she too is a strong woman he admires. Also, when he's in danger, the first name that pops into his head is Buffy. No one can save him or have the answers but Buffy. She, a woman, is his hero and idol.


5) He's funny.

"I laugh in the face of danger. Then I hide until it goes away." "To read makes our speaking English good." "Someone else's loss is my chocolaty goodness." "That is wrong. Big, fat, spanking wrong. It's a slap in the face to every one of us that studied hard and worked long hours to earn our D's." "You and Will go do the superpower thing. I'll stay behind and putter around the batcave with crusty old Alfred here." "Sunnydale: Come for the food, stay for the dismemberment."



6) He's an achiever.

After trying a series of jobs in S4, Xander finds out he's good at construction. Xander works so hard he earns promotions and raises, and becomes the most successful Scooby at a very young age. He gets his own crew and bosses men older than him and he's just turned twenty. Not to mention, finding a time to help out Buffy when he's got a full-time job. Coming home after working under California's burning sun and still having the energy to research and help Buffy? As slayers go, Buffy is so lucky to have a friend like Xander.


7) He's perceptive underneath the Hawaiian wear.

He figured out how to defeat so many villains despite the common belief that he's the dumbest dumb since Dumb and Dumber. He's been insightful enough to figure out what Buffy's problem was in When She Was Bad. He was the one who figured out that they'd resurrected Buffy and left her in her coffin.


8) He's the shoulder his friends cry on.

Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Cordelia and Anya had leaned on his shoulder and poured their hearts out. He doesn't mind listening to their problems and helping them out with a well-worded speech.


9) He teams with people he dislikes to save Buffy and the world.

He teamed with Angel many times to save the day in the earlier seasons, most notably, Prophecy Girl. And also teamed with Spike in the later seasons, most notably, Him. Despite how he feels about them, he helps Buffy save Angel in Amends and Graduation Day Part 1 and lets Spike live with him twice because it's the right thing to do.


10) He helps Anya find love again.

He takes Anya in and starts a relationship with her. He gives her a friend, when she's abandoned by everybody. He offers her a seat in most of the Scooby gang meetings, making her a Scooby despite how his friends felt about her. He teaches her how to be socially competent, kisses her and snuggles with her in front of all his friends, and when he thinks about giving up his life to his evil twin, Anya is the only one he can't give up. Evil twin can take away everything, but Anya.


11) He loves Buffy and Willow no matter what.

Nothing Buffy and Willow do will stop Xander from loving them. He may get angry at times, but he always forgives them, always tries to see where they're coming from even if he doesn't want to. Ending the world and shagging soulless Spike are really upsetting but eventually don't matter at all. Buffy and Willow will always be number one in his heart.



12) He forgets all about his problems and injuries when one of his friends is hurt.

His friends come first. And then Xander. When he was just humiliated by the superior college dude and his boss, he forgets all about it the second he sees a depressed Buffy and instead of venting, he asks her if he could help. In Older and Far Away, he forgets about his injured arm the second he sees Anya standing at the door and looking scared. He jumps to comfort her in an instant.


13) He sacrifices himself for those he loves.

When Ampata wanted to suck Willow's face, Xander offered up himself to save Willow, knowing that by doing that he's gonna definitely die. When Toth shot Buffy, Xander pushed her out of the way and got shot instead. When Olaf asked him to choose between Anya and Willow, which one was gonna die, Xander offered to be killed so that Anya and Willow would be spared.


14) He's not afraid to put himself in danger to save his friends.

In scary frat house where boys get orgasms from walls and girls cut their hair bold, everyone is outside shaking or escaping, but not Xander. He must go in and try to save Buffy and Riley. He'd have gone there alone if it wasn't for the spirits pushing him outside. He attacked Spike who can stand in daylight without bursting to flame to help Buffy. He'd basically throw himself at anything or anyone to save his friends, even if it was useless.


15) He never left Buffy's side.

Everyone basically left Buffy at one point or another. Angel left to find redemption, Cordelia left to find fame, Riley left to find a purpose, Giles left to teach Buffy how to be responsible, Spike stayed in LA to be his own man, Willow left to find a guide, and eventually Dawn left for college.

Apparently, Xander did leave to grieve. But being captured by Dracula made it impossible for him to come back, until Buffy marched in and saved him. And then he and Buffy worked together in Scotland.


16) He helps Buffy out with real life matters.

He drives her and Dawn to school, he fixes her house for free, and he's there for Dawn playing the parent role when Buffy's too busy.


17) He admits being a jackass to Buffy when it comes to Angel and Spike.

"Look, I'm aware I haven't been the mostest best friend to you when it comes to the whole Angel thing, and, um, I don't know, maybe I finally got the Chanukah spirit."

"It hurt. That you didn't trust me enough to tell me about Spike. It hurt. Maybe you would have, if I hadn't given you so many reasons to think I'd be an ass about it."


18) He's there when no one notices Dawn's pain.

He's there when Dawn cries over Buffy stealing RJ, he's there when she's down about not being a slayer, he's there when she grew into a giant and needed someone to talk to, he's there when she talked about Kenny and Nick, he's there when she turned into a half-horse and also needed someone to talk to.


19) He doesn't see things in a black/white fashion.

He's fine with Oz. He's fine with Clem. He's fine with Anya, despite cringing at her past crimes –who wouldn't? He's fine with Willow being a witch. He's fine with Dawn being a ball of energy. He doesn't seem to like the Initiative approach, and took Buffy's side on the wrongness of their experiments. He even found Vampire Buffy and Vampire Willow hot, and wondered if he was as badass as a vampire. I think his reasons for disliking Angel and Spike weren't solely on them being vampires. I don't even think it features in his top ten reasons, and I believe he usually uses the vampire card as a cover for the real reason behind the hate.


20) He doesn't get much appreciation for his contributions, but he celebrates his victories alone.

The Zeppo is an obvious example. Xander saved his friends' lives, and they never knew, because he didn't tell them. Cordelia taunted him about his uselessness and he didn't tell her either. Instead, he walked away confidently with pride. It doesn't matter if they knew, the important thing is that Xander knows. And he only shares it with Dawn later, because she's in his shoes as well.

sybil
16-10-10, 05:23 PM
Great post!

Maybe I am saying the same thing, only different, but!

Xander bothered to learn several jobs that made a viable career; he learned to build (a house) from the ground up and he knows how to maintain it from its guts to its structural parts. This to me is a metaphor for his emotional understanding, why he could see Dawn was extraordinary, and why he could see past “acting out.”

He also was capable of interpreting plans, making changes, and communicating those to others in his supervisory capacity. Again, the metaphor, we see in his leadership qualities for people who might be physically stronger, but less mature, or needing (strategic) guidance and support.

I also think that Xander would be a good father. The rarest kind of male in the Jossverse. Xander seemed to be the most accepting of people’s differences and to see them in a more positive light, even when they were dangerous—they acted better around him than they might normally have.

Xander managed to walk in the world of magic and of adults SUCCESSFULLY.

I think Xander’s art is in living—especially in the face of endless terror, destruction, and death. We know Xander was instrumental in people having the courage to be themselves and their best selves. His energy and approach are positive. Even when things are worst, he knew how to find or create comfort. Larry stopped being a bully to hide that he was gay. Willow would have destroyed the world. I hate to think how much more mopey, even suicidal, Buffy might have become without him at her side. Seriously.
HUGS!

HisMRS
16-10-10, 06:29 PM
I couldn't agree more with this post!! :D Amazing, amazing post and couldn't be more true about my favorite character/

ubi4soft
08-03-11, 04:43 PM
From the essay series focused on Whedon's work currently being posted at Pop Matters, check this out:

Failure of the Everyman: The Lost Character That Was Xander Harris (http://www.popmatters.com/pm/feature/137651-failure-of-the-everyman-the-lost-character-that-was-xander-harris/)- By Kyle Garret


~~~~~~~~ ETA As I expected this essay was skipped on Whedonesque.

WWGD?
01-07-11, 02:38 PM
Xander is my favorite character from the show. He is in love with Buffy from the beginning and that never really goes away - which shows in how he's not friendly with anyone of her romantic partners. He is very loyal to his friends though, he'll always be the first one to run and save Buffy or Willow when he knows they're in danger. He is also the funniest character and most relatable for me. He has no powers, but still fights among his friends and proves to be useful in many instances. I guess I'd say his best quality is his loyalty. Even through feeling like an outcast amongst the scooby gang and not always being noticed and appreciated as he should be he continues to help and support them.

He also has to put up with the confusion of Buffy's feelings towards him. She made it clear early that she only views him as a friends, but there are moments (especially when Angel goes bad) that she acts in a more romantic way towards him. And of course there's "sexy dance" moment in When She Was Bad and the time when his spell on Cordelia backfires and he stops Buffy from her advances on him. He's truly a good friend.

KingofCretins
01-07-11, 03:04 PM
Now you've done it, Sosa Lola. You've suggested not just one, but twenty reasons that Xander isn't completely horrible/misogynist/useless/abusive/bigoted/possessive/stupid, etc, etc. Might as well kick a hornet's nest. Walls of text will surely follow.

I was actually prepared to disagree with a couple of the ways in which Xander is awesome (i.e. he's awesome, but for the opposite reason), but I haven't spotted one yet. I'll try to come up with a few more, though :)

TimeTravellingBunny
01-07-11, 04:27 PM
He also has to put up with the confusion of Buffy's feelings towards him. She made it clear early that she only views him as a friends, but there are moments (especially when Angel goes bad) that she acts in a more romantic way towards him. And of course there's "sexy dance" moment in When She Was Bad and the time when his spell on Cordelia backfires and he stops Buffy from her advances on him. He's truly a good friend.
Buffy is at no point confused about her feelings for Xander until she develops romantic feelings for him in season 8. Her dance in When She Was Bad wasn't about being attracted to him or wanting a relationship with him, it was about her PTSD punishing him and Willow and hurting Angel, and acting out her suppressed anger, at her friends because they can't understand what she went through when she had to die, and Angel because he's a vampire and she's ambivalent about trusting him, especially after having been killed by a vampire. And Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered counts for nothing, because it was a spell aimed at every woman in Sunnydale - unless you think Jenny and Drusilla and everyone else was also attracted to Xander.

WWGD?
01-07-11, 04:35 PM
Buffy is at no point confused about her feelings for Xander until she develops romantic feelings for him in season 8. Her dance in When She Was Bad wasn't about being attracted to him or wanting a relationship with him, it was about her PTSD punishing him and Willow and hurting Angel, and acting out her suppressed anger, at her friends because they can't understand what she went through when she had to die, and Angel because he's a vampire and she's ambivalent about trusting him, especially after having been killed by a vampire. And Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered counts for nothing, because it was a spell aimed at every woman in Sunnydale - unless you think Jenny and Drusilla and everyone else was also attracted to Xander.

Didn't read season 8. I don't think it's a good idea for her to have started an attraction towards Xander after all this time. And I didn't say that the dancing and spell meant she actually liked him. I just mentioned the things he's gone through with her to make him feel put down by her. There's a moment talking about Angel when he says something like "he isn't the same guy you knew before" and they hug, slowly pulling away as their faces are very close. Right after she leaves he says "Yea, my life isn't complicated." There are several times where it seems like Buffy takes into consideration the idea of Xander as a romantic partner. Hence my comment about her being "confused".

KingofCretins
01-07-11, 06:07 PM
Regardless of her intentions, pre-Season 8, I think WWGD is right, that Buffy does at time act in ways toward Xander that could easily (and probably did, for a while) "keep him on the hook", as it were. People do that. It's just reality. It may not be all that appealing, but I have no real doubt Buffy didn't mind having a "break-glass" boyfriend option and actively nurtured that in lonelier times.

Although I'm not sure Xander deserves much credit for "dealing with it", though, because I think he A) recognized it for exactly what it was at times, and B) generally didn't mind at all.

Incidentally, if I was going to identify a romantically/sexually attractive "sexy dance" between Buffy and Xander, it was in the "Passion" teaser, not in "When She Was Bad". Likewise, I think the episodes the love spell is sandwiched between ("Phases" and "Passion") are generally more suggestive of chemistry/attraction between them than the love spell caused. After all, the scene before Xander realizes the spell, when Buffy is coming on to him, is played absolutely straight -- including for the audience.

But this really shouldn't turn into any more of a Buffy/Xander referendum; I mention any of this only insofar as there's nothing special about "dealing with" whatever "their thing" was because I don't think either of them were bothered by "their thing".

Something awesome about Xander that I guess crosschecks several of Sosa Lola's is that... he's his own man. I like that he doesn't make himself beholden to people, we don't see him mooching, he pays rent to his parents as soon as he's out of high school, he chases down his next job, he doesn't act like he's too good for menial work. What's more is I think that was a way in which he was a good influence on Buffy, who once upon a time I bet wouldn't have taken a job at Doublemeat, or would have listened to hype like that she's too good to sling burgers for a check. She isn't. Nobody actually is.

FangsAreHott
16-02-12, 02:35 AM
Great Post! I agree completely. I always loved Xander's character, and anyone to have him in their lifes should grant themselves lucky. Xander is and always will be on my top list of favorite television characters :)

MikeB
28-03-12, 09:12 AM
Sosa lola

To begin, Xander mostly gets flak because of his blatant hypocrisy regarding Angel and Spike given that Xander was with Anya. If not for that, more would probably like the character or like the character more.


Lack of superpowers doesn't stop him from risking his life to save his friends, his enemies, and the world. But he never bothered to try to learn fighting techniques and the like. We do see him effectively use a bow and arrow in “Dirty Girls” (7.18), but other than that?


4) He's got no problem following strong women. When he followed them, Buffy, Willow, and Faith were the most powerful person there. Also, Buffy elected herself leader, Willow elected herself leader, and later Kennedy pretty much elected Faith leader.


6) He's an achiever.

After trying a series of jobs in S4, Xander finds out he's good at construction. Xander works so hard he earns promotions and raises, and becomes the most successful Scooby at a very young age. Xander was able to achieve because Anya was pushing him to achieve and Xander went through the Replacement spell. As for successful, Giles was by far the most successful, albeit Xander didn’t have the socioeconomic background that Giles had. And one can count Angel as having become more successful than Xander. Or if one can look beyond financial success, Buffy saved the world more than once and became the Best Slayer Ever; Willow became the most powerful witch in the world, etc.


7) He's perceptive underneath the Hawaiian wear.

He's been insightful enough to figure out what Buffy's problem was in When She Was Bad. Giles was the one who said she was having issues. When did Xander realize that Buffy was having issues with the Master killing her? After everyone assembled there would have figured that out as well?


He was the one who figured out that they'd resurrected Buffy and left her in her coffin. Spike immediately knew it was Buffy and why her hands were bleeding.


8) He's the shoulder his friends cry on.

Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Cordelia and Anya had leaned on his shoulder and poured their hearts out. He doesn't mind listening to their problems and helping them out with a well-worded speech. He’s A shoulder, not THE shoulder. Buffy poured her heart out to Willow, Angel, Spike, Giles, etc. She only did it with Xander when those others weren’t around. Willow: Buffy’s her shoulder. Dawn? Buffy again, was Spike at times in Season 5.


lets Spike live with him twice because it's the right thing to do. Buffy forced that arrangement. Xander didn’t offer to take Spike in.


15) He never left Buffy's side.

, Willow left to find a guide, and eventually Dawn left for college.

Apparently, Xander did leave to grieve. But being captured by Dracula made it impossible for him to come back, until Buffy marched in and saved him. And then he and Buffy worked together in Scotland. All of this should have probably been in spoilers. This is stuff from Tales of the Slayers : “Antique” and from Season 8.


17) He admits being a jackass to Buffy when it comes to Angel and Spike.

"It hurt. That you didn't trust me enough to tell me about Spike. It hurt. Maybe you would have, if I hadn't given you so many reasons to think I'd be an ass about it." He said this after he probably thought that Buffy would never want to be with Spike ever again.


18) He's there when no one notices Dawn's pain.

he's there when she grew into a giant and needed someone to talk to, he's there when she talked about Kenny and Nick, he's there when she turned into a half-horse and also needed someone to talk to. More stuff from Season 8 that should probably be in spoilers.



sybil


Xander bothered to learn several jobs that made a viable career; he learned to build (a house) from the ground up and he knows how to maintain it from its guts to its structural parts. When did he build a house?


I hate to think how much more mopey, even suicidal, Buffy might have become without him at her side. In Season 8. Before that, she didn’t need Xander for emotional support besides like in “The Freshman” (4.01).



WWGD?


He also has to put up with the confusion of Buffy's feelings towards him. No, he doesn’t.


there are moments (especially when Angel goes bad) that she acts in a more romantic way towards him. No, she doesn’t.


And of course there's "sexy dance" moment in When She Was Bad and the time when his spell on Cordelia backfires and he stops Buffy from her advances on him. He's truly a good friend. He knew she was being cruel to him with that sexy dance and he decided not to rape her in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.18).

______________________________________________


I just mentioned the things he's gone through with her to make him feel put down by her. Huh? Since when should any girl be with any guy simply because that guy wants to be with that girl?


There's a moment talking about Angel when he says something like "he isn't the same guy you knew before" and they hug, slowly pulling away as their faces are very close. Right after she leaves he says "Yea, my life isn't complicated." Buffy didn’t show any attraction to Xander. It’s the opposite: she didn’t want Xander getting any ideas and so promptly left. Xander saying that his life is getting more complicated is because he still wants to be with Buffy.


There are several times where it seems like Buffy takes into consideration the idea of Xander as a romantic partner. There’s not. The closest is a time before Season 7 and during “Lessons” (7.01) where it seems as if Buffy and Xander are playing Mother and Father to Dawn and that maybe Buffy could get into a relationship with Xander: but of course even this is only a possibility and maybe Buffy never thought about being with Xander. But then she sees Wood and had that interaction with Wood and Xander’s chances with her greatly lessen, and then she sees that Spike is back and therefore Xander’s chances with her went to around zero.



TimeTravellingBunny

In Season 8, Xander was literally the only guy around and he was about to be taken off the market by Dawn. It’s not as if if either Spike or a non-happiness clause Angel were around that she’d ever go for Xander.


Her dance in When She Was Bad wasn't about being attracted to him or wanting a relationship with him, it was about her PTSD punishing him and Willow and hurting Angel, and acting out her suppressed anger, at her friends because they can't understand what she went through when she had to die, and Angel because he's a vampire and she's ambivalent about trusting him, especially after having been killed by a vampire. Or it’s simply that she wanted to make Angel jealous and knew that Xander was into her and making Angel jealous was more important to her than Willow being hurt by Buffy ‘betraying’ Willow by dancing with Xander.



KingofCretins

Buffy did keep Xander as a ‘last option’ backup plan, but she didn’t ‘nurture’ it. She just assumed that he’d jump at the chance to be with her.


Incidentally, if I was going to identify a romantically/sexually attractive "sexy dance" between Buffy and Xander, it was in the "Passion" teaser, not in "When She Was Bad". Buffy walked out of the Bronze holding hands with Willow. Buffy was dancing with Xander to have some fun: she wasn’t dancing with Xander because she was thinking about getting with him.


Likewise, I think the episodes the love spell is sandwiched between ("Phases" and "Passion") are generally more suggestive of chemistry/attraction between them than the love spell caused. SMG did have some chemistry with Nicholas Brendon: certainly more than she had with Marc Blucas. And of course this makes sense since given the Original Pilot, Xander was originally going to be Buffy’s boyfriend. But Buffy wasn’t into Xander.


After all, the scene before Xander realizes the spell, when Buffy is coming on to him, is played absolutely straight -- including for the audience. No, it’s not. I’ve been on Buffyverse Boards since 2005 and I’ve not seen a single poster say such. We already knew that Xander did a love spell and we already knew that Cordelia wasn’t affected by it. We also already knew that Xander was actually more in love with Buffy than he was with Cordelia. And we already knew that Buffy wasn’t into Xander.


we don't see him mooching, He initially in Season 4 mooched food from Buffy and Willow.


he pays rent to his parents as soon as he's out of high school, They make him pay rent and he complains about it.


he chases down his next job, he doesn't act like he's too good for menial work. He complained that the Unemployment Office “never had anything good”.


What's more is I think that was a way in which he was a good influence on Buffy, who once upon a time I bet wouldn't have taken a job at Doublemeat, or would have listened to hype like that she's too good to sling burgers for a check. She isn't. Nobody actually is. Huh? First off, Buffy could have gotten better. She could have worked at a boutique or some other thing. Also, she worked at a diner before Season 3 began and that was even worse.

Secondly, Xander was a guy who got horrible SAT scores, horrible grades, etc. and therefore couldn’t have gone to any decent college. Buffy because of her duty couldn’t go to Brown University or Northwestern University. As Dawn said in Season 6, Buffy couldn’t become a lawyer or anything of the like because of Buffy’s duty as the Slayer. That’s the extent in which I’m going to discuss politics in this thread.

Sosa lola
28-03-12, 05:53 PM
But he never bothered to try to learn fighting techniques and the like. We do see him effectively use a bow and arrow in “Dirty Girls” (7.18), but other than that?

He was good with the bow and arrow as you noted. He could never be that good without training.


When he followed them, Buffy, Willow, and Faith were the most powerful person there. Also, Buffy elected herself leader, Willow elected herself leader, and later Kennedy pretty much elected Faith leader.

Actually, Xander elected Willow as their leader. Also, your point? If he had any problem with them as leaders, he'd have voiced his objection. He never did.


Xander was able to achieve because Anya was pushing him to achieve and Xander went through the Replacement spell. As for successful, Giles was by far the most successful, albeit Xander didn’t have the socioeconomic background that Giles had. And one can count Angel as having become more successful than Xander. Or if one can look beyond financial success, Buffy saved the world more than once and became the Best Slayer Ever; Willow became the most powerful witch in the world, etc.

Xander was going to get promoted before the split happened. He'd been working in construction for a month before he was split. And Anya was pushing him to buy the apartment. Being sucessful at work, that's all Xander.


Giles was the one who said she was having issues. When did Xander realize that Buffy was having issues with the Master killing her? After everyone assembled there would have figured that out as well?

Willow: It's over.

Xander: It's not.

Buffy smashes the Master's bones.




I was going to reply to the rest, but honestly, we'll be going through a lot of circles here. Let's just agree to disagree. I'm really getting tired of the Xander-hate on Buffyboards and Tumblr, I don't need more here.

Dipstick
28-03-12, 08:13 PM
Sosa lola
But he never bothered to try to learn fighting techniques and the like. We do see him effectively use a bow and arrow in “Dirty Girls” (7.18), but other than that?

We've seen him fight and preserve his life and others. He demonstrated a preference and facility for the cross-bow as early as Revelations and then in S8, he went on to command the respect of many slayers as their commander.


When he followed them, Buffy, Willow, and Faith were the most powerful person there. Also, Buffy elected herself leader, Willow elected herself leader, and later Kennedy pretty much elected Faith leader.

According to Tara, Xander suggested that Willow be Boss after Buffy died in S5 and they all voted for Willow.



Xander was able to achieve because Anya was pushing him to achieve and Xander went through the Replacement spell. As for successful, Giles was by far the most successful, albeit Xander didn’t have the socioeconomic background that Giles had. And one can count Angel as having become more successful than Xander. Or if one can look beyond financial success, Buffy saved the world more than once and became the Best Slayer Ever; Willow became the most powerful witch in the world, etc.

It seems like Giles inherited everything- his Watcher's position, money enough to buy the Magic Box and his little two-door tramp on a mid-life whim and be unemployed for a year without any money concerns. Buffy had the foresight to negotiate Giles's job back when she saw an opportunity. Anya was the energy and hard work behind the Magic Box's success.

I mean, I don't go OTT and say that Xander is the only successful working Scoob. Willow and Tara were in college which is a great thing to do in your early 20s. Anya really ran the Magic Box. However, it's a definite something that Xander, with no parental support modeling employment success and nothing more than a high school diploma, was able to move up through the ranks and be a boss in his construction job. And that was Xander. Anya had several supportive moments and made it clear that she wanted a prosperous life with Xander but I didn't see her give Xander pointers or to helicopter-girlfriend him into that field.

Yes, Xander went through the Replacement spell but the important thing was that he *learned* from that experience. Not every Scooby learns and makes it a permanent change when a supernatural event walks up and introduces itself as a teachable moment. Buffy doesn't take the Weight of the World counseling loop as a firm lesson to stop with the guilty angsting and demi-suicidal tendencies to be more productive and happier. Willow doesn't learn from the Something Blue incident to not deal with her emotional problems through magic. Xander *does* with the Replacement spell and that's big.


He initially in Season 4 mooched food from Buffy and Willow.

They make him pay rent and he complains about it.

He complained that the Unemployment Office “never had anything good”.

Xander ate off Willow's plate once. Whatever. And he may have complained about the Unemployment Office never had anything good, but he was a ice cream man and a Starbucks barrista and a pizza delivery guy and a Nutrition bar salesman and a digger at a construction site and a bartender and a male stripper- he groused but it really looked like he was taking every job open to him before he settled on construction. Also while Xander came to love construction, I didn't see S1-3 Xander as someone clamoring to work under So Cal's hot sun lifting heavy things and learning complicated plans on a deadline.

To be really frank, it any person earned a right to squat in Giles's house rent-free eating Wheatibix, it was Xander more than Spike. Or to pull a Lane Kim and live in Buffy's and Willow's dorm room with a privacy partition or to beg Willow to let him live in her house when her parents are away which seemed like a lot. Or try to live in Anya's apartment or with Joyce...er...Mrs. Summers. He complained about having to pay rent to live in his parents' basement at the mature age of 18 but he did it and didn't take advantage of the mucho mooching opportunities available to him.


Huh? First off, Buffy could have gotten better. She could have worked at a boutique or some other thing. Also, she worked at a diner before Season 3 began and that was even worse.

I agree with that. Xander telling Dawn in Doublemeat Palace that, of course, Buffy will have to settle for Doublemeat jobs because she's the slayer and Dawn should support her with Dawn's potential lawyer or doctor job just sucks. One of my least favorite Xander moments. The Scoobs should have worked on trying to push Buffy to get a better job in S6 or Giles should have loaned her money enough to finish her education interest-free. It seems like Watchers get paid a nice salary- how 'bout Giles forks over some of the Watcher salary that Buffy negotiated for him while he's emphatically *not* fighting demons in Sunnydale?

Sosa lola
28-03-12, 08:34 PM
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyjr3gyFuL1qf924co1_500.gif

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When Tumblr loves Xander, it really loves him! :heart:

Jack Shaftoe
28-03-12, 09:08 PM
Xander was able to achieve because Anya was pushing him to achieve and Xander went through the Replacement spell.

Seriously, does it cause physical pain or something to admit that Xander isn't the biggest loser in the history of the universe? No offence, but you constantly tend to use ridiculous mental gymnastics and come up with hilarious fanon to explain away any and all positive qualities Xander might have. Anya was pushing Xander? So? Well, Giles was pushing Buffy to train more, this must mean she would have been the worst Slayer ever if it weren't for him, right? It's important to have someone pushing you in certain situations, obviously, but this alone can't do much.

As for the spell in The Replacement - what are you talknig about? Xander had already done enough to achieve promotion before the spell and the spell had no long term effects.


Secondly, Xander was a guy who got horrible SAT scores, horrible grades, etc. and therefore couldn’t have gone to any decent college.

Sure he could, it's a TV show.

KingofCretins
29-03-12, 02:53 AM
WWGD?

No, he doesn’t.

No, she doesn’t.

Wait, wait... I can't handle all this factual support. Slow it down and explain it in simpler language please.


Or it’s simply that she wanted to make Angel jealous and knew that Xander was into her and making Angel jealous was more important to her than Willow being hurt by Buffy ‘betraying’ Willow by dancing with Xander.

Buffy had an agenda against all three of them, it's just blind to pretend that she wasn't trying to hurt Xander just as much as she was Willow and Angel. She wanted them all to suffer for the mistake of caring about her.


KingofCretins

Buffy walked out of the Bronze holding hands with Willow. Buffy was dancing with Xander to have some fun: she wasn’t dancing with Xander because she was thinking about getting with him.

That scene is structured very carefully to frame Buffy and Xander looking at each other with their friends/others in the background. Angelus is looking at them, narrating his voiceover as he watches them dance. The thing is layered with all the early-season love triangle subtext. Sorry you missed it.


No, it’s not. I’ve been on Buffyverse Boards since 2005 and I’ve not seen a single poster say such. We already knew that Xander did a love spell and we already knew that Cordelia wasn’t affected by it. We also already knew that Xander was actually more in love with Buffy than he was with Cordelia. And we already knew that Buffy wasn’t into Xander.

A) I don't believe for one second you've had a conversation about whether or not the audience was expected to believe Buffy's come-on to Xander in that scene.
B) I don't really care if anyone had said so or not.

It's an objective fact -- the moment is obviously meant to be taken as serious by the audience because the entire scene and most of the episode is from Xander's POV. Xander, and we, were supposed to be like "holy crap, Buffy wants to go out with Xander? Like out, out?", and then it's only supposed to be apparent that something is wrong when Amy says the same thing to him Buffy did. At the time, the story was giving us the indication that the love spell had not worked at all.


Huh? First off, Buffy could have gotten better. She could have worked at a boutique or some other thing. Also, she worked at a diner before Season 3 began and that was even worse.

Buffy could have found a better job, perhaps, but probably not faster. And what she could have learned from Xander is that she's not too good for the work there at the Doublemeat. And she's not. There is one and only one truth about someone who thinks they are "too good" for the job they have the good fortune of having, and that's that they aren't good enough for that job. Real adults, grown-ups? Aren't "too good" for honest work that gets them the money they need to handle their responsibilities. So, yes, it's a positive for Xander that he was always on to the next job he had to do, and it's a good thing for Buffy that she worked that job, whether Xander was an influence or not.

Honestly, this is silly -- after the "Xander throughout the show" thread going to dead threads after five or six straight months of getting necro'd for more Xander bashing, I guess this thread was the next best thing.

Dipstick
29-03-12, 03:38 AM
Buffy could have found a better job, perhaps, but probably not faster.

Buffy could have stuck out working at the Magic Box. She'd have to deal with Anya more (and my condolences for that!) but the hours would be better, the pay would probably be better, it'd be less depressing, there would be no smell to smell and she'd be at Slay Central.

A person is as good as the job that their intelligence, experience, energy, training, etc. can get them. Buffy's utter passivity about everything in S6 made her Doublemeat material because she wouldn't work to get or likely work energetically and productively at a better job. However, she's a beautiful, clever, charming girl with super-strength and big intuition with two years of college under her belt who IMO, could have finished college by taking on more debt (because she's already in debt but without the degree) or by getting money from the Watcher's Council or Giles. Based on her inherent talents, she *is* better than Doublemeat. I'm pretty sure that when Snyder says that Buffy is perfect for Hot Dogs on a Stick, we were supposed to roll our eyes at that crap.

People should be able to do whatever it takes to pay the bills and provide for their dependents but they also strive to get the best job that they can and Buffy could have done way better than Doublemeat and she should have been told that by her friends.

mulliganstew
29-03-12, 05:29 AM
Love this thread. Xander rocks my world.

MikeB
05-05-12, 10:04 AM
From now on, I’m going to not address such things said about somehow I hate Xander – overall, I don’t – or I can’t admit that Xander is awesome – I’ve said that Xander managed to get Cordy and Anya to be in love with him, that he was perhaps a multi-millionaire in Season 7 and after, that sexually he got Cordy really hot and he rocked Anya’s world, etc.. This idea is that it’s somehow unreasonably hateful of the character to point out his flaws and whatever else to me is unreasonable. I defend my positions with arguments: I don’t consider I’ve ever unreasonably “bashed” the character.





Sosa lola


My quote: But he never bothered to try to learn fighting techniques and the like. We do see him effectively use a bow and arrow in “Dirty Girls” (7.18), but other than that?

He was good with the bow and arrow as you noted. He could never be that good without training. I did say “but other than that?”


Actually, Xander elected Willow as their leader. Willow elected herself as leader when Buffy was catatonic and nothing suggests she didn’t do similar when Buffy was dead. Xander may have agreed with her being the leader and ‘voted for her’, but it’s very likely she put herself in charge and not that Xander put her in charge.


Xander was going to get promoted before the split happened. He'd been working in construction for a month before he was split. And Anya was pushing him to buy the apartment. Being sucessful at work, that's all Xander. Here’s what I said: “Xander was able to achieve because Anya was pushing him to achieve and Xander went through the Replacement spell.” I didn’t say that Xander wouldn’t have gotten promoted had he not gone through the Replacement Spell. The Replacement Spell gave him confidence in his ability to be successful and gave him the idea that he should have nice things like that apartment, etc. What we know is that, before pre-split, Xander thought that he was going to get fired and he thought that there was little chance that he could afford that apartment or even that he could get that apartment.


My quote: Giles was the one who said she was having issues. When did Xander realize that Buffy was having issues with the Master killing her? After everyone assembled there would have figured that out as well?

Willow: It's over.

Xander: It's not.

Buffy smashes the Master's bones. Xander realized that Buffy needed to smash the Master’s bones to get closure. Giles was the first one to realize that Buffy was having issues, and seeing Buffy there crying on Angel’s chest or whatever, all there assembled knew that her issues stemmed from the Master killing her.



Dipstick


We've seen him fight and preserve his life and others. He didn’t defend himself in “Checkpoint” (5.12?) when the Watcher asked him if he learned any fighting techniques and the like.


He demonstrated a preference and facility for the cross-bow as early as Revelations I don’t remember that. What scene was this in?


and then in S8, he went on to command the respect of many slayers as their commander. That should have been in spoilers. In Season 8 those like Kennedy and Andrew led squads. Xander led because he was an Original Scooby. Xander didn’t stop something like that evil pinked-hair Slayer thing from happening. Xander didn’t seem exactly in full control of his squad leaders.

[quote] According to Tara, Xander suggested that Willow be Boss after Buffy died in S5 and they all voted for Willow. It seems that was for their little ‘Let’s bring Buffy back group’, not for the leader of the Scoobies position. Maybe I’m wrong though. Still, it’s not as if Xander made Willow the leader. Willow made herself the leader.


it's a definite something that Xander, with no parental support modeling employment success and nothing more than a high school diploma, was able to move up through the ranks and be a boss in his construction job. And that was Xander. Anya had several supportive moments and made it clear that she wanted a prosperous life with Xander but I didn't see her give Xander pointers or to helicopter-girlfriend him into that field. Anya made him strive to succeed. I’m not discounting that Xander was able to be successful even though he didn’t come from a wealthy family and even though he didn’t have a high IQ. However, Anya eventually had to rely only on her brain and she was able to be part-owner of the Magic Box and make money investing. Anya’s skills got the attention of DeHoffryn. So, her resume – career-wise – is more impressive than Xander’s.


Yes, Xander went through the Replacement spell but the important thing was that he *learned* from that experience. Not every Scooby learns and makes it a permanent change when a supernatural event walks up and introduces itself as a teachable moment. Buffy doesn't take the Weight of the World counseling loop as a firm lesson to stop with the guilty angsting and demi-suicidal tendencies to be more productive and happier. Willow doesn't learn from the Something Blue incident to not deal with her emotional problems through magic. Xander *does* with the Replacement spell and that's big. I don’t know what you’re talking about with the Buffy thing. Buffy’s lesson learned was that she should fight to beat Glory instead of giving up and killing Dawn. There were no “demi-suicidal’ tendencies in that loop. And Buffy stays positive about her war against the First Evil. Willow didn’t learn her lesson from “Something Blue” (4.09) because there were no consequences. She’s easily forgiven. Even after “Tabula Rasa” (6.08), later in the Season 6, Tara gets back with Willow. Even in Season 9 she was able to guilt Buffy into considering that breaking the Seed was a bad thing and that magic should perhaps be restored to the world. (the Season is currently on 9.08)

Xander was able to learn a lesson because he found out that his credit was good enough to get the apartment, he found out that he was getting promoted instead of getting fired, and he found out that his life would be better if he simply lived with having confidence in himself and his abilities. I actually consider that Xander would have done better in school and better on his SATs if he actually had confidence in himself that he wasn’t completely stupid. He was in the same classes as Willow, Buffy, and Cordelia, he knew and said the occasional big word, so it seems he perhaps simply sold himself short. I mean, someone like Parker Abrams got into UC Sunnydale: does anyone think that Parker is smarter than Xander?

My quote: He initially in Season 4 mooched food from Buffy and Willow. Willow made it sound like it was a regular thing.


And he may have complained about the Unemployment Office never had anything good, but he was a ice cream man and a Starbucks barrista and a pizza delivery guy and a Nutrition bar salesman and a digger at a construction site and a bartender and a male stripper- he groused but it really looked like he was taking every job open to him before he settled on construction. Yes, but if he had done better in school he could have gone to UC Sunnydale with Willow and Buffy and if he had done well at UC Sunnydale – and majored in business or whatever – he could have gotten a good job upon graduating. Are you suggesting that it’s nobler or whatever to do badly in school, get horrible SATs scores and then do menial labor and luck out in the construction business than it is to do well in school, get a high SAT and become a successful professional?


Also while Xander came to love construction, I didn't see S1-3 Xander as someone clamoring to work under So Cal's hot sun lifting heavy things and learning complicated plans on a deadline. What are you getting at here? It’s not as if Xander thought that he should be a high-powered attorney, a businessperson, a banker, etc.


To be really frank, it any person earned a right to squat in Giles's house rent-free eating Wheatibix, it was Xander more than Spike. Where’d that come from? First off, Spike was only there a short period of time. And then he got himself a crypt. And he lowered himself into working for the Scoobies and scaring passerby for money.


Or to pull a Lane Kim and live in Buffy's and Willow's dorm room with a privacy partition or to beg Willow to let him live in her house when her parents are away which seemed like a lot. The dorm thing is illegal and Willow’s parents merely didn’t pay much attention to Willow: it’s not implied that the Rosenberg house was empty a lot in Seasons 4-7.


Or try to live in Anya's apartment or with Joyce...er...Mrs. Summers. Joyce didn’t offer to let Faith live there; why would she offer for Xander to live at her house? As for Anya’s apartment, he was slow to ‘commit’ to her and think of her as his girlfriend. Financially -- and perhaps realistically – he should have lived with Anya.


He complained about having to pay rent to live in his parents' basement at the mature age of 18 but he did it and didn't take advantage of the mucho mooching opportunities available to him. What mooching opportunities? And hopefully you’re not suggesting that somehow Buffy was wrong to stay at her house during the summers off from school.

________________________________________________

Buffy wasn’t in debt in Season 6. She owned the Summers’ home, whatever was in the Summers’ home, and had enough money for designer clothes, property taxes, utilities, upkeep, feeding 4 people, etc.



Jack Shaftoe


My quote: Secondly, Xander was a guy who got horrible SAT scores, horrible grades, etc. and therefore couldn’t have gone to any decent college.

Sure he could, it's a TV show. If you want to go that route, it’s almost completely unrealistic that Xander by Season 7 would have gotten to a position to get the contracts to build the new Sunnydale High School and to build the new Sunnydale Library. In-canon, Xander couldn’t have gone to any decent college with his grades and his low SAT score.



KingofCretins

Do you believe that Buffy in Season 2 wanted to date Xander or do you merely believe that Buffy in Season 2 was attracted to Xander?

And, I forget, so have you said anything about Season 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7?

Buffy wasn’t into Xander and at-most she used him as her ‘last resort’ backup plan (like in Season 8 .

Obviously, this isn’t a Buffy/Xander thread – maybe one should be made? But, first off, Buffy/Xander never happened and therefore is not canon. And, secondly, there’s actual evidence for Buffy/Faith and Joss Whedon has said that that subtext is there: I don’t recall him saying anything about Buffy/Xander in Season 1-7.



Wait, wait... I can't handle all this factual support. Slow it down and explain it in simpler language please. There is no factual support that in Buffy in Season 2 was thinking about getting with Xander.


Buffy had an agenda against all three of them, it's just blind to pretend that she wasn't trying to hurt Xander just as much as she was Willow and Angel. She wanted them all to suffer for the mistake of caring about her. That last part I don’t know where you got that from. But that’s not what this thread is about. You had said – or implied, I forget – that she was dancing with Xander because she was attracted to Xander. I wasn’t responding to whether or not she was trying to emotionally hurt all three of them.


That scene is structured very carefully to frame Buffy and Xander looking at each other with their friends/others in the background. Angelus is looking at them, narrating his voiceover as he watches them dance. The thing is layered with all the early-season love triangle subtext. Sorry you missed it. There was no Angel/Buffy/Xander love triangle. Buffy danced with Xander in “I Was Only Made to Love You” (5.15) as well and Xander made it clear in that episode that he was still in love with Buffy. Hopefully, this isn’t offensive to anyone, but Buffy treated Xander like a gay male friend. And this started with things like in the “The Witch” (1.03) telling him that he was “one of the girls” – or whatever her exact quote was –, her having him give her outfit advice in “Never Kill a Boy on the First Date” (1.09?), etc.


A) I don't believe for one second you've had a conversation about whether or not the audience was expected to believe Buffy's come-on to Xander in that scene.
B) I don't really care if anyone had said so or not. For A) Of course not, because no one thought that.

B) That’s fine.


It's an objective fact Saying this though is not fine. “Objective fact” means that it’s absolute canon. And it’s obviously not.

And, no, the spell was to make Cordy fall in love with him. Cordy being annoyed by him meant that the spell didn’t go as planned. So, the audience would assume that Buffy flirting with him and being so forward with him meant that the spell did something different.


And what she could have learned from Xander is that she's not too good for the work there at the Doublemeat. Again, you completely ignore that Buffy “worked at a diner before Season 3 began and that was even worse”. And Buffy academically and financially – she owned that home and what’s inside – wasn’t in Xander’s position.


There is one and only one truth about someone who thinks they are "too good" for the job they have the good fortune of having, and that's that they aren't good enough for that job. This is a political speech and not about the Buffyverse. Buffy took a diner job, took the DoubleMeat Palace job, and in Season 9 took a coffee shop job.


Real adults, grown-ups? Aren't "too good" for honest work that gets them the money they need to handle their responsibilities. So, yes, it's a positive for Xander that he was always on to the next job he had to do, I’m curious: Do you support Xander’s not trying that hard in school, his getting bad grades, his getting a bad SAT score, etc.? Xander was only in the position he was in because he did horribly in school and got a dismal SAT score.


Honestly, this is silly -- after the "Xander throughout the show" thread going to dead threads after five or six straight months of getting necro'd for more Xander bashing, I guess this thread was the next best thing. What are you implying? That it’s not okay to say anything negative about Xander? I go through the threads. There was a period that I wasn’t posting – I was on vacation or something – and I missed some threads. I don’t know if the “Xander throughout the show” thread was one of those.

buffyholic
05-05-12, 12:01 PM
4. Yes, it´s true that Xander values and respects Buffy´s opinions and actions, but I also feel that´s only in season 7. From the beginning of the series, he has put her on a pedestal that didn´t allow him to see Buffy as a truly flawed human being. Also, the whole thing with Angel makes him disagree a lot of the time with her.
Only when he stops putting her in a pedestal and realises that she is an imperfect person with strenghts and weaknesses is he able to trust her more and more. He believes that Buffy will do the best she can.

A reason I love Xander is when he saved the world and Willow in "Grave".

KingofCretins
05-05-12, 01:41 PM
Willow elected herself as leader when Buffy was catatonic and nothing suggests she didn’t do similar when Buffy was dead. Xander may have agreed with her being the leader and ‘voted for her’, but it’s very likely she put herself in charge and not that Xander put her in charge.

Tara's saying, in as many words, that Xander said Willow should be in charge, in answer to Xander's question of who put her in charge, doesn't clear any of this up for you? Willow taking command late in Season 5 is probably why he said it, but unless you think Tara is just... lying? Then it was Xander's idea for her to take lead at the beginning of Season 6.


It seems that was for their little ‘Let’s bring Buffy back group’, not for the leader of the Scoobies position.

One and the same. Bringing Buffy back was the activity of the Scooby Gang, so it's preposterous to act like they were two different 'groups' made up of the same people.

Season 8 -- I don't recall Kennedy being a squad leader. New York was Vi's squad. Kennedy met Willow at the airport and they went there together, but they were both visitors. Esteemed VIPs, sure, but I never got the impressions Kennedy was even attached to one of the squads.

You're point that Xander led a squad because he was an Original Scooby is disingenuous -- almost all the squad leaders were squad leaders because they were veterans of Sunnydale. Doesn't change the fact that it was Xander in Scotland who was second only to Buffy. I don't know why you think he had poor control; because of Simone? Shit does happen, you know. Plenty of people come off looking bad in that, primarily Rona and Andrew, neither of whom apparently were keeping them updated at the BHC. But there's no reason to think that Xander was somehow undermined or not respected as a leader. All evidence goes to the contrary. His role in Season 8.


That last part I don’t know where you got that from. But that’s not what this thread is about. You had said – or implied, I forget – that she was dancing with Xander because she was attracted to Xander. I wasn’t responding to whether or not she was trying to emotionally hurt all three of them.

The last part is... basically the plot of the episode. Buffy's entire mission in the first three acts was to break ties with all those people. It's pretty much stated explicitly in the text. Did you not follow the episode? My point was that you were acting as though she wanted to hurt Willow, wanted to hurt Angel, but that Xander was just a prop. No, she wanted to hurt him, too.


There was no Angel/Buffy/Xander love triangle.

Better explain it to marketing, then --

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkzc3qfUKv1qgclfwo1_400.jpg

There was a whole photo shoot of that, other pictures have Sarah leaning on Nick while it's David standing there looking surly. They are the only three actors in that shoot. This is actually the photo that the more widely recognized "Twilight" poster (which itself was later the basis for the Jeanty cover to 8.36) is based on. Love triangles, all. Season 2 is actually an intricate latticework of love triangles if you break them all down.


Hopefully, this isn’t offensive to anyone, but Buffy treated Xander like a gay male friend.

It sounds too ridiculous to be offensive.


And this started with things like in the “The Witch” (1.03) telling him that he was “one of the girls” – or whatever her exact quote was –, her having him give her outfit advice in “Never Kill a Boy on the First Date” (1.09?), etc.

Her "Xander-shaped friend" -- no real gender thing there. And women ask heterosexual guy friends what they think of an outfit all the time, to gauge its impact on the dating pool.


For A) Of course not, because no one thought that.

I'm sure at least as many people believed Buffy was actually asking him out as believed Buffy was really making out with Spike at the end of "Out of My Mind". I'm sorry the point of that scene got past you -- the entire structure is to put you in Xander's shoes so you can realize when he does that it isn't real. They even baited the trap in the teaser by having Buffy say she thought Xander should have someone "more... better" than Cordy, so that it plays straight when she moves in on the news of their break up.


Saying this though is not fine. “Objective fact” means that it’s absolute canon. And it’s obviously not.

The objective fact is that the structure of the scene is for Buffy coming on to Xander to play as legitimate, that the backfire on the spell hasn't been revealed yet. That's not a "canon"/"not canon" issue. That's a "understanding writing and structure" issue.


And, no, the spell was to make Cordy fall in love with him. Cordy being annoyed by him meant that the spell didn’t go as planned. So, the audience would assume that Buffy flirting with him and being so forward with him meant that the spell did something different.

They would have assumed as Xander did (because, again, he is the audience's POV character in the episode) that it didn't work at all. The actual reveal comes when he's telling Amy not to worry about the spell, because he thinks it didn't work and doesn't care anymore because... Buffy. And then the backfire is revealed when she says the same thing Buffy said.


Again, you completely ignore that Buffy “worked at a diner before Season 3 began and that was even worse”. And Buffy academically and financially – she owned that home and what’s inside – wasn’t in Xander’s position.

This is a political speech and not about the Buffyverse. Buffy took a diner job, took the DoubleMeat Palace job, and in Season 9 took a coffee shop job.

I don't ignore that, I'm talking about just within Season 6 -- Buffy had already walked off probably the best, most secure job she could have asked for in a fit of pique when she quite the Magic Box, so whether she had worked at the diner before or not, she clearly wasn't in a headspace of just taking and doing the job in front of her, which is the headspace she needed to be in if she was going to take care of herself and Dawn. I didn't actually say Xander directly influenced this or not, just that he could have (you will now continue to argue that, no, Xander definitely could not have influenced this at all, of course). It's really not that important one way or another.


I’m curious: Do you support Xander’s not trying that hard in school, his getting bad grades, his getting a bad SAT score, etc.? Xander was only in the position he was in because he did horribly in school and got a dismal SAT score.

I don't support it or not support it. I don't really care that he didn't go to college, though. Well, I do from a plot standpoint and convenient reasons to interact with other characters, but for the character himself, the guy? Don't care. I don't really think people should go to college unless they know why they are going to college, going to college "to find yourself" is an expensive self-indulgence. Keep in mind, the position Xander was in in Season 4 quickly turned into him being easily the most financially independent of his friends pretty much from the start of Season 5 on.


What are you implying? That it’s not okay to say anything negative about Xander? I go through the threads. There was a period that I wasn’t posting – I was on vacation or something – and I missed some threads. I don’t know if the “Xander throughout the show” thread was one of those.

That was the thread that would lay dormant for 3-4 weeks at a stretch (threads go to Dead Threads after 30 days or so without posting), and which you'd bump up to give the most recent batch of reasons why Xander was a useless, non-contributing character. I just found it amazing that that was an itch that needed scratching badly enough that you picked a thread called "... why Xander is awesome" to go on at extraordinary length about why he is not.

Jack Shaftoe
05-05-12, 08:17 PM
He didn’t defend himself in “Checkpoint” (5.12?) when the Watcher asked him if he learned any fighting techniques and the like.

If only we had had dozens of opportunities to actually see that Xander is very much not a liability in combat. Oh, wait...


I defend my positions with arguments: I don’t consider I’ve ever unreasonably “bashed” the character.

You are posting long rants in a thread called "Twenty Reasons Why Xander is So Awesome". Q.E.D.


If you want to go that route, it’s almost completely unrealistic that Xander by Season 7 would have gotten to a position to get the contracts to build the new Sunnydale High School and to build the new Sunnydale Library. In-canon, Xander couldn’t have gone to any decent college with his grades and his low SAT score.

No, in-canon Xander didn't go to college, that's it. I don't remember it being it being established that he couldn't possibly have gone to college, had he and his parents really wanted this to happen. SAT scores, SAT shmores, it's a world where Buffy with her record of burning a school gym and so on can go to a prestigious university, it would have been simple enough to contrive a way for Xander to get into UC Sunnydale. Heck, they could have had him remain on the swim team and get a scholarship. Would that have been even remotely realistic? Hell no but then again neither was Buffy getting into the Northwestern or Oz having to repeat a grade or Willow teaching classes in Sunnydale High.


Her "Xander-shaped friend" -- no real gender thing there.

Actually Buffy did describe Xander as "totally, and completely one of the girls".

Dipstick
06-05-12, 03:54 AM
He didn’t defend himself in “Checkpoint” (5.12?) when the Watcher asked him if he learned any fighting techniques and the like.

I didn't see Willow and Tara defending themselves by saying that they didn't need any registry or level to be top-notch witches. However, I think pretty much everyone would take it as read that Willow and Tara had serious game magic-wise because we've seen it. Just like we've seen Xander handle himself very well in combat.


I don’t remember that. What scene was this in?

Xander's cross-bow preference? Asserting his preference with Faith when they agree to kill Angel together.

Xander: I call crossbow. (reaches for it)
Faith: You got it.


and then in S8, he went on to command the respect of many slayers as their commander. That should have been in spoilers. In Season 8 those like Kennedy and Andrew led squads. Xander led because he was an Original Scooby. Xander didn’t stop something like that evil pinked-hair Slayer thing from happening. Xander didn’t seem exactly in full control of his squad leaders.

First, I don't think I was giving enough away to put it behind Spoiler Tags by saying that Xander commanded slayers.

The slayers did respect Xander. They addressed him as a CO. They came a'runnin' when he sent them on dangerous missions. It was clear in every interaction that Xander commanded more respect from the slayers than Andrew. Because of Xander's reputation as a Original Scooby and his cool head in a crisis (see how he mobilized coolly when Willow was captured by Warren and Amy), his professional but friendly demeanor with the slayers and his bravery and his willingness to do anything from grunt work to taking a pay cut to be a part of this mission.

Also, I don't remember that Simone was in Xander's own squad. However if you're blaming Xander for any defection, are you blaming for Buffy for all of her slayer defections from Faith right down to Simone as well.


It seems that was for their little ‘Let’s bring Buffy back group’, not for the leader of the Scoobies position. Maybe I’m wrong though. Still, it’s not as if Xander made Willow the leader. Willow made herself the leader.


Tara flat out said that Xander said that Willow should be Boss and they all voted and made a plaque with sparkles. And I thought making Willow boss was an obvious exercise in any managerial facts that dictated who should lead the Scoobies by the beginning of S6 with Buffy dead and Giles retired. Willow was the most powerful, was programming and repairing the Buffybot which was Sunnydale's ticket to peace without a slayer and had taken either prime or secondary control in pretty much every Buffyless catastrophe that they had.

If you wanted to criticize Xander by saying that Xander felt uncomfortable and threatened by Willow's authority once she started using it and passive aggressively smarted under it, I'd agree with you. However, Tara *said* that Xander proposed making Willow Boss.


Anya made him strive to succeed. I’m not discounting that Xander was able to be successful even though he didn’t come from a wealthy family and even though he didn’t have a high IQ. However, Anya eventually had to rely only on her brain and she was able to be part-owner of the Magic Box and make money investing. Anya’s skills got the attention of DeHoffryn. So, her resume – career-wise – is more impressive than Xander’s.

Anya was very smart (about certain things) and ambitious. Her path from newly human teenager without parents or skills to adapt in the modern world to partner in a lucrative business and successful investor, while totally lubricated by being Xander's girlfriend, was amazing. I wouldn't celebrate her for getting D'Hoffryn's attention by turning her boyfriend into a troll like I wouldn't celebrate a hitman rising to prominence in his gang.

However even if Anya was making more money than Xander, that doesn't mean that Xander wasn't successful. Also while Anya was successful, she hardly "relied only her brain". A lot of Anya's more thoughtlessly abrasive moments or her contribution to the mess in Triangle would have gotten her fired by an ordinary employer. The kind of ordinary employer who hadn't forged a bond by fighting to the death together that Xander had to deal with on construction sites.


My quote: He initially in Season 4 mooched food from Buffy and Willow. Willow made it sound like it was a regular thing.

Willow did not. She just said, "To eat off my plate" like Buffy noticed that Faith was eating off her plate in Faith, Hope and Trick like it was kind of weird and ill-mannered in how Xander did it but like Willow was accounting for how Xander gets sustenance nowadways.

And why is this such a bone of contention? I wouldn't have had a problem if Xander did in fact make a habit of going to the Sunnydale cafeteria and supplementing his diet by eating his friends' food as long as they were cool with it. And while Willow had a vibe that Xander was being rude about it (possibly he didn't ask or was eating stuff that Willow really wanted and she was hungry- the cutely plaintive tone that she had supports that), she didn't have any objection to Xander eating. They're childhood best friends, they've saved each other's lives, Willow has packed snacks for him before, heck, they've shared from the same soda can- they're past being miserly about an apple from the cafeteria.


Yes, but if he had done better in school he could have gone to UC Sunnydale with Willow and Buffy and if he had done well at UC Sunnydale – and majored in business or whatever – he could have gotten a good job upon graduating. Are you suggesting that it’s nobler or whatever to do badly in school, get horrible SATs scores and then do menial labor and luck out in the construction business than it is to do well in school, get a high SAT and become a successful professional?

I'm saying that it takes all types of people to make a world and the world needs construction workers as much as it needs computer programmers. Heck, more than it needs high school librarians or magic store owners. *I'm* not going to sneer at the construction workers who made it possible for me to type this post *indoors* instead sitting outside in the dark because they didn't do well in high school or something. They worked an honest trade that made life more convenient for me and lots of other people- that's something to be proud of.


What are you getting at here? It’s not as if Xander thought that he should be a high-powered attorney, a businessperson, a banker, etc.

Xander had fantasies of him rescuing Buffy from beer-bellied Angel in his private jet or wowing everyone with his rock and roll songs and having money and power and prestige...even if the Delta Zeta Kappas would still have more. He didn't know what he wanted to be in high school but he immaturely had a certain fantasy of him just being a rich, powerful, ladykiller with no work (like almost every teenager in the world). S4 was about him growing out of that and he did.


Where’d that come from? First off, Spike was only there a short period of time. And then he got himself a crypt. And he lowered himself into working for the Scoobies and scaring passerby for money.

Okay, Spike was squatting and collecting money from the Scoobies for longer than it took for Xander to get his apartments. By that calculus, Xander had every right to squat at Giles's place and demand money from the Scoobs for helping (which Giles, apparently had to spend on Spike).


The dorm thing is illegal and Willow’s parents merely didn’t pay much attention to Willow: it’s not implied that the Rosenberg house was empty a lot in Seasons 4-7.

If Xander was the most-ever-mooch that you describe, he had a bunch of ways to attempt to get out of paying rent. Anya. Risk breaking the law and room with Buffy and Willow. Hide out in Willow's room. (It's my canon that the Senior Rosenbergs were hardly home but Xander could have appealed them as a childhood friend). Giles. Live out on the street or at some shelter. He did none of that. Instead, he worked menial jobs and paid his parents rent.


What mooching opportunities? And hopefully you’re not suggesting that somehow Buffy was wrong to stay at her house during the summers off from school.

Of course not. The best thing is for parents to support their kids when they've just graduated from high school until they find their own footing. Xander's parents were jerks for demanding rent for that hole. Buffy was just lucky enough to enjoy the fact that Joyce did the right thing by her.

buffyholic
10-05-12, 03:36 PM
Xander did not feel threatened by Willow in any way, he was just realising the kind of power she was experiencing and he was a bit frightened for her. They all were but only Anya was strong enough to be blunt.

Xander may not have powers but he is useful in his own ways.
Sometimes I wanna smack him but sometimes he´s adorable.

MikeB
30-05-12, 09:48 AM
All caught up



KingofCretins


Tara's saying, in as many words, that Xander said Willow should be in charge, in answer to Xander's question of who put her in charge, This was said in their little ‘let’s bring Buffy back’ subgroup. Willow was obviously in charge of that group. That doesn’t mean that Xander elected her to be in charge of the entire Scooby Gang. He could have, but it was never stated that way.


Bringing Buffy back was the activity of the Scooby Gang, so it's preposterous to act like they were two different 'groups' made up of the same people. So Giles wasn’t part of the Scooby Gang? It can be argued that Spike wasn’t, but since when was Giles not a member during that time?


I don't recall Kennedy being a squad leader. Who then was leading San Francisco if not Kennedy?


You're point that Xander led a squad because he was an Original Scooby is disingenuous -- almost all the squad leaders were squad leaders because they were veterans of Sunnydale. First off, don’t tell me that I’m being disingenuous (unless you don’t know what that word means). Secondly, is Xander somehow not a “veteran of Sunnydale”?


Doesn't change the fact that it was Xander in Scotland who was second only to Buffy. But he was the only Scooby there. Giles was elsewhere. Willow was elsewhere. Xander being ‘second in command’ doesn’t mean that he was Buffy’s first choice or that he would have been second in command had Willow been there or even if Giles had been there. And do you think that there was any chance that Buffy would subordinate Spike to Xander if Spike had been with her? Or that if Angel had been with her (if he wasn’t being Twilight) that she would have subordinated Angel to Xander?


I don't know why you think he had poor control; because of Simone? Did I say “poor control”? He knew about the Simone situation and yet didn’t bring it up to Buffy until it was pretty much too late. A possibly rogue Slayer is something that Buffy should know about.


Plenty of people come off looking bad in that, primarily Rona and Andrew, neither of whom apparently were keeping them updated at the BHC. Absolutely those two weren’t qualified to lead squads.


But there's no reason to think that Xander was somehow undermined or not respected as a leader. I never said either of those things (or I don’t recall my saying that).


Buffy in “When She Was Bad” (2.01) was still traumatized by the Master killing her. The sexy dance with Xander was partly about – or simply about – her having power, if simply the power to hurt the feelings of three people who love her. I don’t consider that she was trying to break ties with those three. For example, she simply ignores Xander’s threat to kill her if anything happens to Willow. She still wants Angel’s help. She still wanted to be with Angel. She still wanted Willow as her friend.

And do you agree that she wasn’t dancing with Xander – all the times that she did dance with him – because she was attracted to him?


My quote: There was no Angel/Buffy/Xander love triangle.

In the Original Pilot, Xander was obviously going to be Buffy’s love interest. But in the actual pilot, Angel’s clearly the love interest. When exactly in Season 1 or 2 or 3 was Buffy even considering dating Xander?


My quote: Hopefully, this isn’t offensive to anyone, but Buffy treated Xander like a gay male friend. And this started with things like in the “The Witch” (1.03) telling him that he was “one of the girls” – or whatever her exact quote was –, her having him give her outfit advice in “Never Kill a Boy on the First Date” (1.09?), etc.

She called him “one of the girls”.


And women ask heterosexual guy friends what they think of an outfit all the time, to gauge its impact on the dating pool. Really? Even if so, Buffy never did this with anyone she was considering dating. She didn’t ask Angel about outfit or lipstick advice.


I'm sure at least as many people believed Buffy was actually asking him out (in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16) as believed Buffy was really making out with Spike at the end of "Out of My Mind". You mean millions?


I'm sorry the point of that scene got past you The point was to show that the spell didn’t work the way Xander intended and that Xander would dump Cordy in a heartbeat if he had a chance with Buffy.


-- the entire structure is to put you in Xander's shoes so you can realize when he does that it isn't real. Buffy suddenly out of nowhere wanting to go on a date with Xander simply made no sense unless it was the spell.


The objective fact is that the structure of the scene is for Buffy coming on to Xander to play as legitimate, For it to appear legitimate, it had to make sense that a not love-spelled Buffy would do that.


that the backfire on the spell hasn't been revealed yet. We know that Cordy wasn’t love-spelled.


My quote: And, no, the spell was to make Cordy fall in love with him. Cordy being annoyed by him meant that the spell didn’t go as planned. So, the audience would assume that Buffy flirting with him and being so forward with him meant that the spell did something different.

You seem to simply be ignoring the reality that we already knew that the love spell didn’t work on Cordy.


They would have assumed as Xander did Xander wanted to believe that Buffy was into him.


The actual reveal comes when he's telling Amy not to worry about the spell, because he thinks it didn't work and doesn't care anymore because... Buffy. Again, Xander wanted to believe that Buffy was into him.


I didn't actually say Xander directly influenced [Buffy working at the DMP)], just that he could have (you will now continue to argue that, no, Xander definitely could not have influenced this at all, of course). Again, why the need to inject Xander into her decision? She had previously worked at a diner job. And this was before Xander was taking crappy jobs in Season 4. She got fired from the construction site, didn’t like taking orders from Anya, and couldn’t make it at the school.


It's really not that important one way or another. Well, Xander did do a good thing by managing to get her a job at the construction site. But he wasn’t doing a good thing by not caring that she’s working fast food.


Keep in mind, the position Xander was in in Season 4 quickly turned into him being easily the most financially independent of his friends pretty much from the start of Season 5 on. Xander isn’t the Slayer. As Dawn says, Buffy couldn’t become a lawyer or anything like that.



Jack Shaftoe


If only we had had dozens of opportunities to actually see that Xander is very much not a liability in combat. We also had a lot of times that Xander was a liability and Buffy and Giles telling him so.


You are posting long rants in a thread called "Twenty Reasons Why Xander is So Awesome". It’s a thread that’s discussing things Xander has and hasn’t done. Xander isn’t sacrosanct.


I don't remember it being it being established that he couldn't possibly have gone to college, I said “decent college”. He had horrible grades and an atrocious SAT score.


it's a world where Buffy with her record of burning a school gym and so on can go to a prestigious university, it would have been simple enough to contrive a way for Xander to get into UC Sunnydale. Buffy got a 1470 or something SAT. She didn’t seem to need financial aid in Season 4 or 5.


Heck, they could have had him remain on the swim team and get a scholarship. Was he that good and do they give scholarships for swimming?



Dipstick


I didn't see Willow and Tara defending themselves by saying that they didn't need any registry or level to be top-notch witches. Huh? They didn’t know about the registry or what each level meant. They did say that they were powerful witches and Tara made sure to say that they were Level 5 witches. Willow was saying, “One of those high levels”.


Xander's cross-bow preference? Asserting his preference with Faith when they agree to kill Angel together.

Xander: I call crossbow. (reaches for it)
Faith: You got it. I don’t remember Xander using the crossbow in “Revelations” (3.07).


First, I don't think I was giving enough away to put it behind Spoiler Tags by saying that Xander commanded slayers. Well this isn’t a comics thread, so anything of any significance should be in spoilers.

[quote] It was clear in every interaction that Xander commanded more respect from the slayers than Andrew. From Andrew’s Slayers? I don’t think there’s enough info for that (or I simply don’t fully remember that perfectly clearly). Certainly I agree that the Scotland squad respected Xander more than the Italy squad respected Andrew.


Because of Xander's reputation as a Original Scooby and his cool head in a crisis (see how he mobilized coolly when Willow was captured by Warren and Amy), his professional but friendly demeanor with the slayers and his bravery and his willingness to do anything from grunt work to taking a pay cut to be a part of this mission. I agree with this, but there was a discussion about why Xander was ‘Command Central’ instead of someone else.


Also, I don't remember that Simone was in Xander's own squad. She wasn’t. Xander knew about her though.


However if you're blaming Xander for any defection, are you blaming for Buffy for all of her slayer defections from Faith right down to Simone as well. Buffy didn’t know about things. But she wasn’t Command Central. It was Xander’s job to inform her of such things. [/spoiler]


I thought making Willow boss was an obvious exercise in any managerial facts that dictated who should lead the Scoobies by the beginning of S6 with Buffy dead and Giles retired. Willow was the most powerful, was programming and repairing the Buffybot which was Sunnydale's ticket to peace without a slayer and had taken either prime or secondary control in pretty much every Buffyless catastrophe that they had. I don’t disagree. Willow was the leader of the entire group. What I do disagree with is that somehow Xander made her the leader and any suggestion or argument that if it weren’t for Xander, she wouldn’t have been the leader.


If you wanted to criticize Xander by saying that Xander felt uncomfortable and threatened by Willow's authority once she started using it and passive aggressively smarted under it, I'd agree with you. I don’t agree with this. Xander’s problem was Willow seems to rush into the spell to bring Buffy back.


However even if Anya was making more money than Xander, that doesn't mean that Xander wasn't successful. I didn’t say that he wasn’t. I’ve said that he was possibly a multi-millionaire in S7 given that he got the contracts to build the new Sunnydale High School and the new Sunnydale Library.


Also while Anya was successful, she hardly "relied only her brain". A lot of Anya's more thoughtlessly abrasive moments or her contribution to the mess in Triangle would have gotten her fired by an ordinary employer. The kind of ordinary employer who hadn't forged a bond by fighting to the death together that Xander had to deal with on construction sites. The troll god thing was also greatly Willow’s fault. And it seems it’s made clear that Anya takes care of the accounting and business side of the business. Giles pretty much provided the capital and some customer service.


Some poster said something like that Xander didn’t mooch off of Buffy and Willow. I was saying that he at one point did.


Okay, Spike was squatting and collecting money from the Scoobies for longer than it took for Xander to get his apartments. By that calculus, Xander had every right to squat at Giles's place and demand money from the Scoobs for helping (which Giles, apparently had to spend on Spike). Do you forget that Giles did give him a job and that in the beginning of S4 that Xander was working for Giles?


If Xander was the most-ever-mooch that you describe, I never suggested that.

Jack Shaftoe
30-05-12, 07:57 PM
Buffy in “When She Was Bad” (2.01) was still traumatized by the Master killing her. The sexy dance with Xander was partly about – or simply about – her having power, if simply the power to hurt the feelings of three people who love her. I don’t consider that she was trying to break ties with those three.

Really? This theme could hardly be any more obvious, IMO:

Buffy: Look, this is Slayer stuff, okay? Could we have just a little less from the civilians, please?


She still wants Angel’s help. She still wanted to be with Angel.

She did? Is that why she told him "There's no 'us'" and danced with Xander in a way intended to also enrage Angel?


The point was to show that the spell didn’t work the way Xander intended

No, that only became fully clear once Amy hit on Xander too - which was clearly supposed to be a surprising plot twist.


You seem to simply be ignoring the reality that we already knew that the love spell didn’t work on Cordy.

And you seem to be ignoring the obvious interpretation that before seeing Amy hit on Xander this most likely meant that the spell had done nothing, not that it had worked on any woman not named Cordelia.


I said “decent college”. He had horrible grades and an atrocious SAT score.

Sure but if the writers had wanted they could have done the same thing they did with Cordelia and Buffy - suddenly show Xander as a capable student who aced the SAT. Or alternatively they could have done what they did with Oz - making him repeat a grade if the plot needed that. That's how academic achievements tend to be portrayed on TV. If the show was to be set in a "decent college" outside Sunnydale, a reason for Xander to get into it woudl have been contrived.


Was he that good and do they give scholarships for swimming?

He was going to be as good as the plot needed him to be. Did you seriously expect realism from this aspect of the show? Heck, they pulled the entire UC Sunnydale out of thin air as it was never mentioned prior to Buffy and Willow deciding to go study there.

KingofCretins
30-05-12, 09:28 PM
KingofCretins

This was said in their little ‘let’s bring Buffy back’ subgroup. Willow was obviously in charge of that group. That doesn’t mean that Xander elected her to be in charge of the entire Scooby Gang. He could have, but it was never stated that way.

The Resurrection Subcommittee of the First Scooby Gang House of Parliament -- under Robert's Rules, when the exact same number and exact same composition of vampire fighting friends are organized for multiple supernatural objectives, they automatically merge into a multipurpose administrative body. Duh, everyone knows that.

By which I mean -- it's a distinction without a difference. The leadership of the group is the leadership of the group. Do you actually suppose that if they'd had separate votes on the "resurrection committee" and the gang itself, they'd have gotten different results?


Who then was leading San Francisco if not Kennedy?

First off, don’t tell me that I’m being disingenuous (unless you don’t know what that word means). Secondly, is Xander somehow not a “veteran of Sunnydale”?

But he was the only Scooby there. Giles was elsewhere. Willow was elsewhere. Xander being ‘second in command’ doesn’t mean that he was Buffy’s first choice or that he would have been second in command had Willow been there or even if Giles had been there. And do you think that there was any chance that Buffy would subordinate Spike to Xander if Spike had been with her? Or that if Angel had been with her (if he wasn’t being Twilight) that she would have subordinated Angel to Xander?

Did I say “poor control”? He knew about the Simone situation and yet didn’t bring it up to Buffy until it was pretty much too late. A possibly rogue Slayer is something that Buffy should know about.

Absolutely those two weren’t qualified to lead squads.

I never said either of those things (or I don’t recall my saying that).



1. The only mention of San Francisco I can find in Season 8 prior to 8.40 was Willow saying that they had great Chinese food. I don't see a reference to there even having been a squad, let alone Kennedy having run it.

2. I will call you disingenuous where I see disingenuousness (and I know perfectly well what it means). It is disingenuous to imply that Xander somehow only had station because he was a Scooby already, as though that is even remotely unique. As far as what is textually established, every squad was headed by a Sunnydale vet and they were pretty much always the only one on scene, period, so you can indistinguishably say every squad leader is "only" a squad leader because of having been in Sunnydale.

3. The first thing we, as the audience, learn about Simone having gone rogue was when we join Xander briefing Buffy about her in progress. Wouldn't that be the 'telling Buffy about her' you mention? You have absolutely no textual basis upon which to assume that Xander didn't brief Buffy about her the instant he became aware of the problem, yet you imply he sat on this information... why make stuff up?


The point was to show that the spell didn’t work the way Xander intended and that Xander would dump Cordy in a heartbeat if he had a chance with Buffy.

No, the point of the scene in the hallway was to show that the spell didn't work. There aren't two answers to this. Even in the effing shooting script it's completely obvious how the story is designed. Here is the direction during Buffy's come-on in the library --

"She's very close to him now, and since you ask, yes there's heat. Yet her advances are more than sexkittenish - they're sincere."

And then, in the hallway, two directions for Xander, first "They stop right by the doors, Xander looking in anxiously at his newly affectionate Buffy." and then, definitively establishing the answer here --



XANDER
Sure… what?

AMY
Well, I really liked spending time
with you. You're so sweet… It's
funny how you can see a person
every day and -

XANDER
(his expression drains)
-- not really see them?

AMY
Exactly!

The wind goes right out of Xander's sails. In fact, his sails fall down.

Now, between directing specifically that Buffy is to sound completely sincere, and that Xander doesn't understand until Amy repeats what Buffy said, there is no mistaking that that is the moment when the audience is supposed to 'get it'.


Buffy suddenly out of nowhere wanting to go on a date with Xander simply made no sense unless it was the spell.

... to you.


For it to appear legitimate, it had to make sense that a not love-spelled Buffy would do that.

So they waived your proposed "it would have to make sense" rule for the "Out of My Mind" fake-out?


Well, Xander did do a good thing by managing to get her a job at the construction site. But he wasn’t doing a good thing by not caring that she’s working fast food.

There was nothing wrong with Buffy working fast food. He'd have been juvenile and ignorant to treat her like there was. Buffy had responsibilities, she was taking care of them. Need > Want.


We also had a lot of times that Xander was a liability and Buffy and Giles telling him so.

By which you mean... "The Zeppo". And only "The Zeppo".


I said “decent college”. He had horrible grades and an atrocious SAT score.

Decent is subjective. We don't actually know what his grades were or his SAT score in any quantitative sense, either, so this is mostly a made up set of facts, your determination of where he could or couldn't have gotten into college.

Is it ever even stated that he wanted to go? I can't really recall.


Buffy got a 1470 or something SAT. She didn’t seem to need financial aid in Season 4 or 5.

1430.


Was he that good and do they give scholarships for swimming?

There are most certainly athletic scholarships for swimming. Other than that he was apparently a good swimmer, we really don't know if he was good enough for a scholarship or not. I'd give him credit to think that if he had a different life he could have been, but realistically people who want a swimming scholarship are gonna be knocking out half miles or miles before and after school, and Scoobying really doesn't lend itself to a varsity letter.

But, then again, he is that good if they say he's that good, as writers, so Jack's point is that they could have... said he's that good. Xander being good enough for a swimming scholarship with completely off-screen swimteam commitments is no less realistic than Buffy's various school disciplinary issues creating no problems for her admission.


I don’t remember Xander using the crossbow in “Revelations” (3.07).

His intent to use it doesn't help you in that regard? Do you think he goes around asking to use weapons he isn't competent with?


Do you forget that Giles did give him a job and that in the beginning of S4 that Xander was working for Giles?

He paid him to help him move/organize some stuff, that's like a buddy giving you $20 to help him move, not a job. Xander probably didn't have to fill out an I-9 or W-4 for Giles.

MikeB
20-09-12, 05:56 AM
“Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16): There was nothing before this episode and during the episode that showed that Buffy was possibly into Xander. Even in the beginning scene of “BB&B” (2.16), if anything, Buffy is either ambivalent toward or ‘feels sorry’ for Xander for his comment that he’s still into her.

It makes no sense that suddenly out-of-nowhere that Buffy – with Giles right there – would be strongly flirting – something we didn’t see Buffy do with anyone before – with Xander and then asking him out because Cordy dumped him.

________

Shooting scripts aren’t canon. Unless Joss Whedon says that shooting scripts are canon – to me – it’s a waste of time to post shooting scripts as a way of defending one’s argument.




Jack Shaftoe


This theme could hardly be any more obvious, IMO:

Buffy: Look, this is Slayer stuff, okay? Could we have just a little less from the civilians, please? “When She Was Bad” (2.01): Buffy being mean to Xander, Willow, and Angel doesn’t’ mean that she wanted to break ties with them.


* My quote: She still wanted to be with Angel.

This is obvious. When Angel visited her and her room and then leaves after saying, “I missed you.” Buffy – perhaps out of Angel’s earshot – responds “I missed you too.”


My quote: I said “decent college”. He had horrible grades and an atrocious SAT score.

Sure but if the writers had wanted they could have done the same thing they did with Cordelia and Buffy - suddenly show Xander as a capable student who aced the SAT. This argument is not based on canon. Cordelia was always shown to be a competent and capable student. Buffy (post-Slayer) always was portrayed as smart, just not bookish. Buffy was behind in school and needed tutoring at least partly because of her slaying schedule. Also, she was only being tutored in French and chemistry. Buffy did well in English and we never heard of her needing tutoring in Math.

Xander while having a decent vocabulary was shown to be bad at school in general.


Or alternatively they could have done what they did with Oz - making him repeat a grade if the plot needed that. Um, they made new sets (and reused the high schools sets to make the university sets) and if Xander was still back at SHS, he’d have less screentime with the Scoobies since they had different school schedules. It’d be like Dawn in BtVS S5 and 6 expect that Dawn doesn’t live at Buffy’s house.


My quote: Was he that good and do they give scholarships for swimming?

He was going to be as good as the plot needed him to be. No, we saw the swimming episode. And, again, do they give scholarships for swimming?


Did you seriously expect realism from this aspect of the show? Heck, they pulled the entire UC Sunnydale out of thin air as it was never mentioned prior to Buffy and Willow deciding to go study there. This idea is irrelevant to the topic. The topic here is Xander’s ability to get into a UC school.



KingofCretins


My quote: This was said in their little ‘let’s bring Buffy back’ subgroup. Willow was obviously in charge of that group. That doesn’t mean that Xander elected her to be in charge of the entire Scooby Gang. He could have, but it was never stated that way.

The Resurrection Subcommittee of the First Scooby Gang House of Parliament -- under Robert's Rules, when the exact same number and exact same composition of vampire fighting friends are organized for multiple supernatural objectives, they automatically merge into a multipurpose administrative body. Duh, everyone knows that.

By which I mean -- it's a distinction without a difference. The leadership of the group is the leadership of the group. Do you actually suppose that if they'd had separate votes on the "resurrection committee" and the gang itself, they'd have gotten different results? I’m don’t even know what your point is. Willow was going to be in charge of that group just like she was in charge when Buffy was catatonic.

Regarding BtVS S8: [spoiler]
1. The only mention of San Francisco I can find in Season 8 prior to 8.40 was Willow saying that they had great Chinese food. I don't see a reference to there even having been a squad, let alone Kennedy having run it. I don’t have the inclination to check this.


It is disingenuous to imply that Xander somehow only had station because he was a Scooby already, as though that is even remotely unique. I didn’t say this. If I recall correctly, you were implying that Xander was Buffy’s ‘Number Two’ because she thought he was the most qualified person to be her ‘Number Two’. I was pointing out that: But he was the only Scooby there. Giles was elsewhere. Willow was elsewhere. Xander being ‘second in command’ doesn’t mean that he was Buffy’s first choice or that he would have been second in command had Willow been there or even if Giles had been there. And do you think that there was any chance that Buffy would subordinate Spike to Xander if Spike had been with her? Or that if Angel had been with her (if he wasn’t being Twilight) that she would have subordinated Angel to Xander?


As far as what is textually established, every squad was headed by a Sunnydale vet and they were pretty much always the only one on scene, period, so you can indistinguishably say every squad leader is "only" a squad leader because of having been in Sunnydale. I’m confused. What happened is that Sunnydale vets were in charge of squads regardless of their actual ability to lead those squads. Rona and Andrew were terrible leaders and yet they were leaders.


The first thing we, as the audience, learn about Simone having gone rogue was when we join Xander briefing Buffy about her in progress. Wouldn't that be the 'telling Buffy about her' you mention? No, Xander said that Rona had a problem with her and shipped her off to Andrew. It’s pretty much stated that Xander had known about this BEFORE we saw that briefing. Simone had simply gotten increasingly worse. If Xander was supposedly Command Central, he should have informed Buffy about this possible ‘problem Slayer’.


You have absolutely no textual basis upon which to assume that Xander didn't brief Buffy about her the instant he became aware of the problem, yet you imply he sat on this information... why make stuff up? I had already given the ‘textual basis’.


My quote: For it to appear legitimate, it had to make sense that a not love-spelled Buffy would do that.

So they waived your proposed "it would have to make sense" rule for the "Out of My Mind" fake-out? This is completely laughable. Buffy/Spike had been strongly set-up by that point. Buffy/Xander by “BB&B” (2.16) had been set up as something that was never remotely likely to happen as long as Angel is around.


There was nothing wrong with Buffy working fast food. Yes, there was. She could have gotten a much better job and only Spike and Dawn seemed to care that Buffy was working in such a crappy job.


* My quote: We also had a lot of times that Xander was a liability and Buffy and Giles telling him so.

By which you mean... "The Zeppo". And only "The Zeppo". [/quote] Maybe this is true for Giles. Buffy had told him more than that. And both Willow and Xander couldn’t brush off Spike in “Doomed” (4.11) telling them that they were Buffy’s groupies and that she’d probably do better without them.


My quote: I said “decent college”. He had horrible grades and an atrocious SAT score.

Decent is subjective. I guess, to a point. He couldn’t have gotten into a UC school. Sidenote: what do you consider a decent school?


We don't actually know what his grades were or his SAT score in any quantitative sense, either, so this is mostly a made up set of facts, In “Lovers Walk” (3.08):
And the fact that your 740 verbal closely resembles my combined scores http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/042_tran.html


your determination of where he could or couldn't have gotten into college. It’s the show’s determination. It’s canon that he couldn’t go to UC Sunnydale. Your not liking that fact doesn’t change the canon.


Is it ever even stated that he wanted to go? I can't really recall. He was really bummed that Willow and Buffy were in college and he wasn’t. It’s more than clear that he wanted to have gone to college with them.


My quote: Buffy got a 1470 or something SAT. She didn’t seem to need financial aid in Season 4 or 5.

1430. Yeah. They give you a range when you get your scores. 1430 is not much different than a 1470, especially since that was the first time that Buffy took the test.


Xander being good enough for a swimming scholarship with completely off-screen swimteam commitments is no less realistic than Buffy's various school disciplinary issues creating no problems for her admission. Actually, this is untrue. Unless UC Sunnydale was somehow putting swimmers on Olympics teams, it’s highly unlikely that they are going to give a spot in their school to someone who barely scored around a 740 on his SAT and got bad grades in schools. Buffy got a 1430, had a decent GPA by the time she applied, and did extracurriculars at Hemery. And she didn’t need government money. Buffy could have gone to Brown or Northwestern: UC Sunnydale would jump to get her. Buffy also had an apparently rich father; that would help as well.


My quote: I don’t remember Xander using the crossbow in “Revelations” (3.07).

His intent to use it doesn't help you in that regard? Do you think he goes around asking to use weapons he isn't competent with? Who knows. The point is that he wasn’t shown using it and therefore we don’t know if he was competent with it.


My quote: Do you forget that Giles did give him a job and that in the beginning of S4 that Xander was working for Giles?

He paid him to help him move/organize some stuff, that's like a buddy giving you $20 to help him move, not a job. Xander probably didn't have to fill out an I-9 or W-4 for Giles. This is also silly. Giles didn’t give Spike a full-time job either (you were complaining about Giles paying Spike). And Xander seemed to get decent pay from Giles.

KingofCretins
20-09-12, 06:36 AM
“Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16): There was nothing before this episode and during the episode that showed that Buffy was possibly into Xander. Even in the beginning scene of “BB&B” (2.16), if anything, Buffy is either ambivalent toward or ‘feels sorry’ for Xander for his comment that he’s still into her.

Yeah, you still don't get the structure there at all. This isn't even ambiguous; it's like you arguing that wood stakes don't dust vampires. The scene in the library is structured around the idea that Buffy has just warmed up to Xander all of the sudden, it was even set up before hand by her thinking he could do better than Cordy, and when the music changes AND the direction in the script AND the editing all come together when Xander is talking to Amy, that's when it becomes clear. It really is no different than the trick they pull in "Out of My Mind", except it's a waking dream that Xander is coming out of (and I'd argue that for a minute long illusion of story, it's infinitely more believable that Season 2 Buffy would want to go on a date with Xander than that Season 5 Buffy would jump Spike's bones after he tried to kill her and her boyfriend).


Shooting scripts aren’t canon. Unless Joss Whedon says that shooting scripts are canon – to me – it’s a waste of time to post shooting scripts as a way of defending one’s argument.

This seems to be something you are... highly selective about.


I’m don’t even know what your point is. Willow was going to be in charge of that group just like she was in charge when Buffy was catatonic.

Then we're at even footing, since I still can't see what possible point you were trying to make when you disputed that Xander was credited as the voice suggesting Willow run things. I can conceive of no reason to challenge that explicitly established fact other than a near-compulsive drive to strip any credit for anything of interest or importance from the character at any point in the franchise. It's actually a marvel to behold. I'm almost tempted to ask how much credit Xander deserves for them defeating the Judge, seeing as he not only came up with the plan, he came up with the plan for how to execute it, i.e. get the rocket launcher. I'm sure it would be some wash of "he only came up with that because the writers put him in a soldier costume" as though the writers don't also decide everything in every story.


No, Xander said that Rona had a problem with her and shipped her off to Andrew. It’s pretty much stated that Xander had known about this BEFORE we saw that briefing. Simone had simply gotten increasingly worse. If Xander was supposedly Command Central, he should have informed Buffy about this possible ‘problem Slayer’.

You're simply misinterpreting the dialogue. He is briefing her on the events as they are being revealed to the audience, there is absolutely no way to parse that as concluding that he knew about it before obtaining the information on her behalf just then. You might as well say that when Abby/Ducky/Hodgens/*insert forensic exposition character in procedural show* briefs Booth/Gibbs/*insert lead investigator in procedural show*, that they actually knew all that long before hand and had just concealed it. Why not? There would be exactly the same amount of reason to think so. In this case, you're just making it up as a cheap anti-Xander point, but there is no support for it in the story anywhere.


This is completely laughable. Buffy/Spike had been strongly set-up by that point. Buffy/Xander by “BB&B” (2.16) had been set up as something that was never remotely likely to happen as long as Angel is around.

There's a reason it only lasts seconds, because it was so completely unbelievable. Just tried to murder Riley. Just tried to murder her. Only if Buffy were a porn character could you think she would seriously jump into bed with Spike in that very episode.


Yes, there was. She could have gotten a much better job and only Spike and Dawn seemed to care that Buffy was working in such a crappy job.

People with responsibilities, don't sit around unemployed and unable to pay their bills and care for their family for no reason other than thinking they are "too good" for fast food; they take the first job they can get and then, in spare time, maybe look for something better paying/less annoying/more flexible. Buffy taking that job, as it was ostensibly the first thing she could get, was her simply being a grown-up.

Yeah... I'm done going through this line by line. It's obvious your sole purpose on this thread is to reiterate the same dozen reasons why Xander sucks and Spike's a bloody rock god. Just not going to engage the rest of it. Canon that he couldn't go to UC-Sunnydale; is it canon that he even applied? There's no canonical evidence he even wanted to go to college that I can recall, but of course, you have to make it the worst and most character-bashing interpretation you can think of.

MikeB
24-10-12, 08:18 AM
KingofCretins

The first time that there is any hint of a future possible Buffy/Xander pairing is them in “Lessons” (7.01) seeming to be acting like the ‘mother and father’ of Dawn. But Xander’s chances with Buffy decreased exponentially upon Principal Wood ‘charming’ her and then went to zero upon her seeing that Spike’s back in town.

In BtVS S8 Buffy only approaches Xander because he’s the only guy around and he was about to be taking off the market. Even Xander knows this which is why he ‘rejected’ her.


This isn’t a Buffy/Spike thread, but that relationship had been set up since “School Hard” (2.03), and by the end of “Out of My Mind” (5.04) it was believable that Buffy could have kissed Spike back and that she could have wanted him. And that scene is not comparable to the one in “BB&B” (2.16) because Buffy didn’t even really know until “Crush” (5.14) that Spike actually loved her. She’s known about Xander’s feelings since at-latest in “Prophecy Girl” (1.12).


My quote: Shooting scripts aren’t canon. Unless Joss Whedon says that shooting scripts are canon – to me – it’s a waste of time to post shooting scripts as a way of defending one’s argument.

This seems to be something you are... highly selective about. This is simply untrue. I have never used a shooting script to support one of my arguments. And I’ve always reminded posters and readers that shooting scripts aren’t canon.


My quote: Willow was going to be in charge of that group just like she was in charge when Buffy was catatonic.

Then we're at even footing, since I still can't see what possible point you were trying to make when you disputed that Xander was credited as the voice suggesting Willow run things. Because it seemed you were suggesting that since Xander suggested she be the Willow’s Group leader that that was the reason she was. My point is that she was going to be the leader of that group whether Xander suggested she be or not.

You also were suggesting that Xander was Buffy’s Number 2 in BtVS S8 because he was the most qualified. I pointed out that those like Spike, Willow, and Giles were elsewhere and that any of those three were more likely to be Buffy’s Number 2 had any of them been around


I can conceive of no reason to challenge that explicitly established fact other than a near-compulsive drive to strip any credit for anything of interest or importance from the character at any point in the franchise. That wasn’t important. Willow was going to be the leader of that group no matter what Xander suggested. As for the larger point: that’s simply untrue. I’m the only one I know of that says that in BtVS S7, Xander was possibly already a multi-millionaire. I never say that it was unrealistic that Cordy and later Anya fell for him. I always say that aside from ‘inheritance’ that he was the most financially successful of the group (going off his being a multi-millionaire” in the group. As for Buffy/Xander, I’ve always said – meaning since being on Boards since 2005 – that it could have been realistic for Buffy/Xander to happen in BtVS S4 and that if Spike didn’t’ come back in BtVS S7, it possibly could have happened in BtVS S7. But as the show was done, Buffy wasn’t going to be with Xander if there was anyone available around that was somehow ‘cooler’.

In essence, your problem seems to be that I won’t agree with everything you say about Xander and Buffy/Xander. Also, on every BuffyBoard I’ve ever been on, I argue against anything I read that I don’t agree with that I have the time and inclination to argue against. Xander is not unique in this regard.


I'm almost tempted to ask how much credit Xander deserves for them defeating the Judge, seeing as he not only came up with the plan, he came up with the plan for how to execute it, i.e. get the rocket launcher. He was a factor in that win. I’m not sure what you’re asking. Oz, Buffy, and Cordy are also reasons for that win.


"he only came up with that because the writers put him in a soldier costume" That’s true. That Halloween costume is also why he was a “General” in “Graduation Day Part II” (3.22).


* In BtVS S8, it’s implied that Xander knew about the Simone problem before it was brought to Buffy’s attention. But as I’ve also said, Xander was one of the least ‘problem cases’ in BtVS S8. Anyway, I don’t have the time and inclination to read through BtVS S8 and give a detailed argument on this.


My quote: This is completely laughable. Buffy/Spike had been strongly set-up by [the end of “Out of My Mind” (5.04)]. Buffy/Xander by “BB&B” (2.16) had been set up as something that was never remotely likely to happen as long as Angel is around.

There's a reason it only lasts seconds, because it was so completely unbelievable. I consider this delineates your complete lack of objectivity on Buffy/Xander (at least, possibly also Buffy/Spike). You’re argument applies – by logic, not that you think this – that “Buffy/Xander by “BB&B” (2.16)” is even more “completely unbelievable” because Buffy was merely asking Xander out and doing a little flirting. She wasn’t making out with him and telling him she wanted him and doing this even though Xander had just almost ‘indirectly’ killed her current boyfriend and just tried to murder her. We already knew before Buffy’s flirting with Xander that it was because of a love spell. And the scene in “Out of My Mind” (5.04) was originally longer – meaning it was filmed – but for whatever reason it was cut short. In the show, it is only cut short because of Spike’s horrified reaction to his telling Buffy: “Buffy, I love you. God, I love you so much.” Buffy/Spike happening wasn’t unbelievable to the audience. The audience wanted Buffy/Spike to have already happened and didn’t like Buffy/Riley.


My quote: Yes, there was. She could have gotten a much better job and only Spike and Dawn seemed to care that Buffy was working in such a crappy job.

People with responsibilities, don't sit around unemployed and unable to pay their bills and care for their family for no reason other than thinking they are "too good" for fast food; they take the first job they can get and then, in spare time, maybe look for something better paying/less annoying/more flexible. Buffy taking that job, as it was ostensibly the first thing she could get, was her simply being a grown-up. I said that I try to refrain from discussing politics on this Board. The point is that only Spike and Dawn seemed to care that Buffy was doing a crappy job and that she deserved better. And, you’re argument is simply false since Buffy could have worked at the Magic Shop before doing something else.


Yeah... I'm done going through this line by line. It's obvious your sole purpose on this thread is to reiterate the same dozen reasons why Xander sucks and Spike's a bloody rock god. Why that Spike diss? That’s actually outrageous and offensive since YOU’RE the one who brought up Spike in this thread and it was about Buffy/Xander in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16) versus Buffy/Spike in “Out of My Mind” (5.04). My purpose in this thread is to read what posters say and debate, discuss, and argue against what I disagree with that posters say – It’s the same as my purpose on all threads on this Board.


Canon that he couldn't go to UC-Sunnydale; is it canon that he even applied? This is silly. The canon is that he got a total SAT score that was similar to Willow’s Verbal SAT score. Xander wouldn’t have gotten into a UC school.


There's no canonical evidence he even wanted to go to college, That’s simply untrue . He complains throughout BtVS S4 that Buffy and Willow are in college and he couldn’t go.


but of course, you have to make it the worst and most character-bashing interpretation you can think of. Not agreeing with things you say is simply not agreeing with things you said. And this “you have to make it the worst and most character-bashing interpretation you can think of” is simply untrue.

Jack Shaftoe
24-10-12, 06:51 PM
and by the end of “Out of My Mind” (5.04) it was believable that Buffy could have kissed Spike back and that she could have wanted him.

Once again I am amazed by your low opinion of Buffy. Leaving aside the fact that Spike was a guy who had tried to kill her half a dozen times, do you really think it's in character for Buffy to cheat on her current boyfriend with the person whose plotting had almost led to said boyfriend's death mere hours before the scene you are referring to? Only people with shipper goggles who didn't bother following the plot or the characterization at all would consider this scene to be a reality rather than a dream for more than a second or two.


But as the show was done, Buffy wasn’t going to be with Xander if there was anyone available around that was somehow ‘cooler’.

See above.

MikeB
28-11-12, 06:30 AM
Jack Shaftoe


My quote: and by the end of “Out of My Mind” (5.04) it was believable that Buffy could have kissed Spike back and that she could have wanted him.

Once again I am amazed by your low opinion of Buffy. Leaving aside the fact that Spike was a guy who had tried to kill her half a dozen times, do you really think it's in character for Buffy to cheat on her current boyfriend with the person whose plotting had almost led to said boyfriend's death mere hours before the scene you are referring to? Spike did a Richard III thing with Buffy. If the scene actually happened, Buffy didn’t go there to actually threaten to stake him. “Buffy vs. Dracula” (5.01) had Buffy getting off on slaying. “The Replacement” (5.03) had Riley telling Xander that Buffy doesn’t love him. “Out of My Mind” (5.04) itself had Buffy reacting to Riley’s sexual prowess less than she did with Angel in “I Will Remember You” (A 1.08), Buffy doesn’t go to Spike with anything that could kill him, and she doesn’t do anything to Spike for trying to kill her and almost killing Riley. She ‘lightly’ punches him in the next episode partly because he was standing outside her house lurking.

Plus, it seems that she didn’t have Willow to any spell on her to rid of the “Something Blue” (4.09) memories.

Also, she was making out with Angel in “Revelations” (3.07) even after all he did and tried to do in BtVS S2.

Also, she was flirty with Ben while she was still in a relationship with Riley.

So, in general, Buffy was no longer that attracted to Riley and Buffy didn’t really seem to love Riley. In canon, Buffy actually wasn’t relatively that bothered by what Spike did in “Out of My Mind” (5.04). So, yes, it is believable that Buffy would have kissed Spike back and admitted to wanting him.


Only people with shipper goggles who didn't bother following the plot or the characterization at all would consider this scene to be a reality rather than a dream for more than a second or two. I wasn’t going to discuss ‘shipper biases but you brought up the subject.

People knew that Riley was leaving the show. Viewers wanted Buffy and Spike together. Viewers believed that Buffy and Spike was going to be ramped up in BtVS S5 and that they’d probably get together in the Season. If anything, when it first aired, only anti-Buffy/Spike viewers wouldn’t have believed that that actually happened.

This is a Xander thread, so my point is that when first watching the “Out of My Mind” (5.04) scene, one is reasonable to think that that actually was happening and not some Spike dream or Buffy nightmare or whatever. And my point is that Buffy/Spike had been set up since “School Hard” (2.03). The point is that the “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16) Buffy-Xander scene was of course because of the spell and the viewers should have immediately recognized that.

I’m not the one who brought up the “Out of My Mind” (5.04) scene. KingOfCretins brought that scene up.


My quote: But as the show was done, Buffy wasn’t going to be with Xander if there was anyone available around that was somehow ‘cooler’.

See above. What do you mean? Anyway, my statement is canon.

vampmogs
28-11-12, 01:52 PM
Also, she was flirty with Ben while she was still in a relationship with Riley.

Um, what? How was Buffy "flirty" with Ben prior to breaking up with Riley? They share a total of three scenes together prior to Riley leaving and in none of them is she flirtatious with Ben. In Out of My Mind she pays no more attention to him than she would any other nurse, in No Place Like Home she doesn't even remember him at first and is then immediately preoccupied by what the crazy Night Watchman says about her family, and in Shadow she's too distraught by the sudden news of her mother's brain tumor to "flirt" with anybody. In all three of their (pretty brief) interactions Buffy's attention is almost entirely on her mother and she does nothing that be considered in anyway flirtatious. She merely talks to the guy, for crying out loud.

...

Honestly, I don't see how anybody could be fooled by either B,B&B or Out of My Mind. I certainly agree that in both instances the writers wanted to tease the idea, if just for a moment, but both situations were totally implausible.

In B,B&B Buffy acts blatantly OOC. Not only is it implausible that her feelings for Xander would just randomly change overnight but since when would Buffy – even a Buffy who suddenly was into Xander – react to Xander's 'lap dance' comment with a "if you play your cards right"? There was nothing remotely realistic about the way Buffy approached Xander. I’d be very surprised if there was anyone in the audience even remotely familiar with these characters who actually believed what they were seeing and didn’t realise what was really going on until the next girl makes a pass at him. It was clear very, very quickly that something peculiar was occurring.

Spike’s fantasy in Out of My Mind was no more likely. It actually was believable right up until the moment Spike kisses her and she pushes him away. It stopped being believable straight after that when Buffy “succumbs” to him and tugs him back. Her “Spike I want you” should have been a dead giveaway that this was in fact not real. As not only does it sound exactly like the thing somebody else would fantasise her saying about them, but even in lust she’d never give him the satisfaction of saying that out loud. She never uttered those words in S6 when she really was jumping his bones.

I think with both scenes its dead obvious way before the “reveals” that what we’re seeing isn’t real. In B,B&B I didn’t realise along with Xander that his spell had gone awry. I realised way before that and was then just waiting for him to realise it, mostly feeling bad for him that he hadn’t twigged on yet. If there’s one thing I can fault about that episode it’s that I wish Buffy had been written more realistically in that scene because it’s hard to imagine even Xander buying it the way that he did. She started acting OOC almost straight away and I think that’s a shame because they could have played it much more believable. There's just no way that if Buffy had suddenly developed these feelings for Xander that she would approach him in that way. Out of My Mind actually has the slight advantage because up until the moment when she does kiss him back I find her to be written very well. Storming into Spike’s crypt, the hesitance when she raises her stake, the way she shoves him off her when he kisses her… it’s all very Buffy.

But overall it was obvious fairly early on that both weren’t legit. As for what the audience wanted, who cares? MikeB, what does that have to do with whether or not a scene is written believably? I could be the biggest Buffy/Xander shipper in the world and I'd still think Buffy was behaving very uncharacteristically when she makes a move on Xander. Likewise, I could be a hard-core Buffy/Spike shipper and still roll my eyes at the idea that Buffy would cheat on her boyfriend with the guy who was responsible for almost killing said boyfriend, whilst professing how much she "wanted him." Just because the audience wants something doesn’t mean they’re all foolish enough to believe anything handed to them. And clearly the writers agree, as despite a significant portion of the audience wanting Buffy/Spike to happen, and despite Joss Whedon planning for them to eventually get together, they obviously didn't feel it was believable for Buffy to get with Spike under such silly circumstances. It took a lot more groundwork, and just over an entire season later, for that to eventually occur.

Jack Shaftoe
28-11-12, 07:49 PM
In canon, Buffy actually wasn’t relatively that bothered by what Spike did in “Out of My Mind” (5.04). So, yes, it is believable that Buffy would have kissed Spike back and admitted to wanting him.

As much as I do find it extremely stupid, OOC and implausible that Buffy wasn't bothered much by what Spike did, I would have to agree with you. The problem is this is completely irrelevant to your argument since Buffy's lack of reaction happened after the fake out Spuffy scene in Out of My Mind. At the time the expected behaviour for Buffy would have been to try to stake Spike or give him a good beating or at least a good scolding. Even most Spuffy shippers wouldn't expect them to start making out just like that. I mean, something like this usually doesn't happen even in fanfics, let alone canon.


Also, she was making out with Angel in “Revelations” (3.07) even after all he did and tried to do in BtVS S2.

Apples and oranges much? First, Angel had a soul. Second, they had been dating before that. So however ill-advised I might consider Buffy kissing him in Revelations, it's not really comparable to kissing Spike in Out of My Mind.


People knew that Riley was leaving the show.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't you say that you first watched the show after it was over? How do you know what "people" knew at the time? I think we can be reasonably sure that the vast majority of viewers didn't follow the stuff behind the scenes and even those that did couldn't be certain Riley was a goner at that point. Not that I see how all this is relevant in the slightest, to be honest.


What do you mean?

I mean that Buffy's criterion for picking romantic partners isn't just "coolness".


Plus, it seems that she didn’t have Willow to any spell on her to rid of the “Something Blue” (4.09) memories.

Nor did she ask Willow to delete any other of the many unpleasant memories she had gathered over the years, so again I consider this detail completely irrelevant. Might as well claim Buffy secretly enjoyed trying a strip tease on Xander because she didn't ask those memories to be deleted either...

KingofCretins
28-11-12, 08:15 PM
Mogs, the only point at which I think that scene really strains credulity at all is when Buffy half-purrs about Xander 'playing his cards right'. Which, fittingly, is pretty much right as he is going to be pulled out of the scene, and we with him, before it can really be scrutinized. Prior to that, her sort of thoughtful reconsideration of him, just doesn't strain believability. She wasn't proposing to him, she was suggesting they go do something just the two of them.

The framing of the story -- really in both cases* -- is to weave an illusion that does make facial sense and then dispel it before it can be challenged and the tension it creates dissipates. Another example of this would probably be Joyce's "recovery" montage in "The Body", there just, just long enough to indulge the audience's hopes but collapsed before the mind has time to do more than go "but..."

*I don't think it's worth debating what the writers were going for, if they didn't want us to buy into the moment, they would have thrown a filter on the lens and wavy line action or something. What we're really arguing about is which is more believable -- a) single Buffy sizing up single Xander and thinking that maybe they should go on one date, or b) involved Buffy going to confront Spike who had just tried to kill her boyfriend and, y'know, her, and then jumping him instead. Which is more plausible for a 90 second pocket universe? I have trouble seeing (b), I really do.

vampmogs
29-11-12, 01:44 AM
I just don't find any of it believable. For a start, if Buffy had suddenly changed her views on Xander we sure as hell wouldn't have found out about it in this way. They just wouldn't reveal something like that without telegraphing it first and most certainly not without giving us the Buffy-centric POV on it first. If you want to see how it would actually be done just look no further than S8 when we see it all from Buffy’s perspective, as you’d expect because it’d be a pretty significant moment for her character and she’s the protagonist after all. They wouldn’t just reveal something so huge out about their heroine out of the blue like that.

Furthermore, Buffy’s just too forward and aggressive in that scene. Which isn’t something I have a problem with at all but in this case I do because it’s just not true to her character. If she suddenly developed feelings for Xander she’d react – well, she’d react exactly like she did in S8 and be really nervous, anxious or uncertain when telling him. Not as forward and seductive as they play it in that scene. Frankly, Buffy's never been that assertive nor that confident in the beginning of any of her relationships before or since.

The whole thing just rang false. They’d never reveal that Buffy was suddenly into Xander in this way and there’s no chance in hell they’d depict it all through the lenses of Xander. If she had developed feelings for Xander we’d have known about it long before her approaching him about it. It felt implausible mainly because it occurs so randomly. She's the protagonist of the show and they just spring it on us that she's suddenly fallen for Xander and wants to ask him out on a date? Nah.

KingofCretins
29-11-12, 01:58 AM
All of which is grand, but also sort of in the weeds -- the core point of argument was if "BBB = Crazy, then OofM = Crazy^N (where N>=2)". There is no context in which the latter is more believable than the former, by a whole bunch.

Of course, I don't believe that that scene is implying at all that Buffy has "fallen" for Xander, not up front -- just that she's looked at him in a different way and decided there might be a dating option there after all. It honestly is incomprehensible to me how that is anybody's believability Rubicon that simply can't be crossed. Especially since it's an illusion that the audience is meant to be drawn into for less than two minutes. You would think that no friends in the history of mankind had ever started dating on reconsideration.

vampmogs
29-11-12, 02:21 AM
Of course, I don't believe that that scene is implying at all that Buffy has "fallen" for Xander, not up front -- just that she's looked at him in a different way and decided there might be a dating option there after all. It honestly is incomprehensible to me how that is anybody's believability Rubicon that simply can't be crossed.

But… that’s just not how fiction works. Well, not good fiction anyway. What made Buffy suddenly look at Xander in a different way? How did she go from being completely engrossed in Angel – to the point that in an earlier scene she would've walked right past Xander without even acknowledging him had he not stopped her – to suddenly seeing Xander in a whole new light? What changed? And why? It would be odd for any character but especially odd for them to bypass explaining how their protagonist suddenly had this change of heart.

It was just too jarring. For the entire show Buffy expressed absolutely no interest in Xander and his unrequited loved was actually a major part of their dynamic back then. To have Buffy suddenly start noticing him back is a significant moment, and way too important for the writers to skip over completely and jump straight to her asking him out.

You may very well be right that the writers wanted us to buy it, at least for a moment. However, that's exactly why I say I consider it a fault of the episode because I don't think they wrote it in a plausible way at all. Leaving aside the fact that something felt 'off' by having the protagonist reveal her feelings through the lenses of another character, I just didn't find her characterisation believable. They actually do a far better job with Joyce than they do with Buffy, as she acts far more 'Joyce-like' for way longer before she suddenly makes a move on him. With Buffy they just telegraph it way too soon and if she had acted in a more 'Buffy' way then the scene would have been far stronger. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but for me I didn't buy it for a second.

In Out of My Mind I think they do a far better job because Buffy is written to be very IC up until the point she kisses Spike back. Even when they first kiss I could believe it because she didn't "jump him." He kissed her and she pushed him off with a shocked/semi-disgusted sound. It's when she pulls him back in that it becomes clear it's a fantasy. But up until that point? Yeah, she's written more believably than she is in B,B&B. For instance, I've always said that I thought Spike's subconscious nailed what her reaction would be when she raises the stake and then hesitates. I'm NOT saying that I find it more believable that Buffy would have fallen for Spike under those circumstances than she would have Xander, I find neither believable. I'm saying that they manage to keep the realism for longer in the Spike fantasy than they do in the library scene because Buffy's odd behaviour is apparent right away with Xander and they spoil it way too soon. I would have much preferred for Buffy to be written more IC and come onto Xander is more quintessential 'Buffy' way.

Dinza
29-11-12, 07:20 AM
I agree for the most part of the OP, but I also think that Xander has a tendency to get stuck on the past and begrudge rather than see past it for the importance of the moment (example: any situation involving the help of Spike or Angel against someone or something that is trying to kill them).

I also hate it when Xander displays hypocrisy of the moment, blasting Buffy for continuing relations with Angel & Spike when he has/was in a long term relationship with a vengeance demon who had killed many people and actually (at times) acted like she had less emotion and feeling than either Angel or Spike. I guess my point is I wish he wasn't always the guy pointing the finger and trying to be all "judgey" when he has done similar things himself, but all in all he is not a bad guy or a bad character and I believe besides Spike Xander is one of the few clear-headed minds of the Scooby gang during a crisis.

MikeB
19-12-12, 06:13 AM
To begin, obviously the “Out of My Mind” (5.04) stuff is off-topic, but unless one of the reasons Xander is awesome is that Buffy was never into him during the entire TV Buffyverse and in BtVS S8 was only interested because he was literally the last available male around and was about to be taken off the market , I don’t see how any Buffy/Xander discussion is on-topic either.





vampmogs


How was Buffy "flirty" with Ben prior to breaking up with Riley? By being flirty. You’re the first person I’ve ever even heard of who doesn’t know this. Do you recognize that Ben was flirting with her?


Honestly, I don't see how anybody could be fooled by either B,B&B or Out of My Mind. I certainly agree that in both instances the writers wanted to tease the idea, if just for a moment, The writers weren’t teasing Buffy/Xander because the audience would know she was under a spell.

To be clear, my argument with “Out of My Mind” (5.04) is partly based off what the audience knew at the time. The audience knew that Riley is going to leave and the audience suspects that Buffy/Spike is going to be ramped up. Still, there is in-verse set-up in that Buffy didn’t erase the memories of “Something Blue” (4.09), Buffy defends Spike over Riley, and Spike thought that was Buffy in “Who Are You” (4.16), and other things. Buffy being attracted to Spike and kissing him isn’t implausible to the audience. And the actual canon is in ways even more pro-Buffy/Spike. Buffy does about nothing about the fact that Spike again tried to kill her and this time he would have killed Riley in the process. And if I remember correctly, Harmony killed an Initiative guy as well.


“In B,B&B”, “ I’d be very surprised if there was anyone in the audience even remotely familiar with these characters who actually believed what they were seeing and didn’t realise what was really going on until the next girl makes a pass at him. Have you not read KingOfCretins posts in this thread?


Spike’s fantasy in Out of My Mind was no more likely. It actually was believable right up until the moment Spike kisses her and she pushes him away. It stopped being believable straight after that when Buffy “succumbs” to him and tugs him back. Um, why? This would be a Buffy who: came to him telling him she’s going to stake him but then is confused that Spike would want her to stake him; this is a Buffy who checks Spike’s shirtless-self out and is attracted to his body; this is a Buffy who then (and probably couldn’t before) couldn’t actually stake him. Spike kissing her not being believable? Spike in “School Hard” (2.03) in the Bronze Scene is already attracted to her. Spike in “Who Are You” (4.16) is affected by and then sexually frustrated by Buffy. As-is, Spike at the end of “Out of My Mind” (5.04) owns to being in love with Buffy. Back to Buffy, she kissed Spike back. So, why would all the previous be believable but Buffy then initiating a kiss be unbelievable? As-is, she in BtVS S5 was getting off on killing vampires and she’s ‘darker’ than she was before.


Her “Spike I want you” should have been a dead giveaway that this was in fact not real. As not only does it sound exactly like the thing somebody else would fantasise her saying about them, […] Her saying, “I want you” instead of “I love you” made it seem more realistic. And Spike being in love with Buffy would want her to tell him she’s in love with him as well. As-is, the dream is prescient about the limits of her acknowledgement to him regarding her feelings for him.


[…] but even in lust she’d never give him the satisfaction of saying that out loud. She never uttered those words in S6 when she really was jumping his bones. Saying such words isn’t necessary when it’s already obvious that it’s true. That may be necessary or wanted when one is first making out with someone, but that’s not necessary when one is having heavy hot sex with someone. Anyway, as-is, we didn’t see all the sex that they had so you actually have no way to know that she didn’t say that in BtVS S6.


If there’s one thing I can fault about that episode it’s that I wish Buffy had been written more realistically in that scene because it’s hard to imagine even Xander buying it the way that he did. Well, there was no way for it to be realistic. That ship about sailed when Buffy chose to be with a formerly murderous vampire who is only good because he’d been cursed by Gypsies a century before over being with Xander. Remember that Xander wasn’t portrayed as a total loser who couldn’t possibly get dates. Willow had been into him for years (the girl that cool guy Oz falls in love with, maybe even on first sight). The guys in “Teacher’s Pet” (1.04) thought that it was possible that Xander had had sex. Buffy didn’t seem to think Xander was a virgin. And the most popular girl in school (Cordelia) got with Xander. Xander in the beginning of “BB&B” (2.16) informs Buffy again that he’s into Buffy and that Buffy’s unavailable (She is actually available given she’s not in a relationship with anyone; she’s simply not available to him.) and Buffy reacts with pretty much the best friend’s equivalent of an ‘eye roll’.


She started acting OOC almost straight away and I think that’s a shame because they could have played it much more believable. None of the others was played as believable, so Buffy being different would have confused things.


As for what the audience wanted, who cares? MikeB, what does that have to do with whether or not a scene is written believably? First off, as-is, the “Out of My Mind” (5.04) stuff was Spike’s dream. Secondly, you’re one who likes to talk about Shooting Scripts. Have you seen the Shooting Script for that scene? That stuff was actually shot and perhaps even more. I’ve even heard that a sex scene was done though I’ve never had that confirmed. Thirdly, and most important for this discussion is that audience expectations play into how a scene is perceived. The audience already knowing that Buffy/Spike is likely to happen in the Season and that Riley is leaving makes that scene more believable than if the audience knew that Riley was going to stay for the entire Season and say that Drusilla was going to be used on BtVS instead of AtS and that Spike and Dru were getting back together in BtVS S5.


Likewise, I could be a hard-core Buffy/Spike shipper and still roll my eyes at the idea that Buffy would cheat on her boyfriend with the guy who was responsible for almost killing said boyfriend, whilst professing how much she "wanted him." Again, as-is, Buffy didn’t respond to Spike at all. For all we know, if in the very next episode he wasn’t stalking her, she may have never even punched him over it. As-is, Riley knew that Buffy didn’t love him. Buffy was getting off on killing vampires. Buffy was darker and tapping into the demon inside her. This isn’t a Buffy/Spike thread, but it’s interesting that the first unambiguous time that Buffy knows that Spike’s into her is in “Crush” (5.14).


despite a significant portion of the audience wanting Buffy/Spike to happen, and despite Joss Whedon planning for them to eventually get together, they obviously didn't feel it was believable for Buffy to get with Spike under such silly circumstances. It took a lot more groundwork, and just over an entire season later, for that to eventually occur. The writers barring David Fury, and maybe Joss Whedon, wanted Buffy and Spike together in BtVS S4. Joss Whedon did the body switch to have a “Buffy”/Spike scene. There is obviously “Something Blue” (4.09). “Fool For Love” (5.07) has them on a ‘date’. If Spike were nicer to Buffy and not continually trying to kill her, telling her he wants to kill her, making known that he’s still into Drusilla, it is believable that Buffy would have gotten with Spike before BtVS S6.

________________________________________________


If she suddenly developed feelings for Xander she’d react – well, she’d react exactly like she did in S8 and be really nervous, anxious or uncertain when telling him. Buffy didn’t develop feelings for Xander in BtVS S8 and even Xander knows this.


Frankly, Buffy's never been that assertive nor that confident in the beginning of any of her relationships before or since. With Spike, Buffy in “Tabula Rasa” (6.08) and “Smashed” (6.09) was confident to the point that she knew Spike would follow her around like a puppy. Buffy in “BB&B” (2.16) knew Xander was in love with her. There was zero reason not to be confident that he’d jump at the chance to go out with her.


It felt implausible mainly because it occurs so randomly. Other than the in-canon reasons for it being implausible is the fact that most of the audience were still supporting Buffy/Angel and already a sizable number were supporting Buffy/Spike. Buffy/Xander has always had about no support and at the time, more likely wanted Xander/Willow than wanted Buffy/Xander.

________________________________________________


You may very well be right that the writers wanted us to buy [the “BB*B” scene], at least for a moment. They didn’t. If they would want the audience to ‘buy it’, they would have Buffy be appreciative in the beginning of the episode when Xander reminds her he’s in love with her and they wouldn’t have already revealed that the love spell didn’t work on Cordy; in fact, they wouldn’t have even revealed that a love spell was done. Such a ‘fake out’ would be accomplished using a flashback sequence.


However, that's exactly why I say I consider it a fault of the episode because I don't think they wrote it in a plausible way at all. The point of the scene is that Xander is far more into Buffy than he’s into Cordy and that any hint that Buffy’s into him would pretty much make him ‘forget’ about being with Cordy. That’s what happens in the scene and why Xander doesn’t recognize that Buffy’s under a spell.


In Out of My Mind I think they do a far better job because Buffy is written to be very IC up until the point she kisses Spike back. Even when they first kiss I could believe it because she didn't "jump him." He kissed her and she pushed him off with a shocked/semi-disgusted sound. It's when she pulls him back in that it becomes clear it's a fantasy. But up until that point? Yeah, she's written more believably than she is in B,B&B. For instance, I've always said that I thought Spike's subconscious nailed what her reaction would be when she raises the stake and then hesitates. I actually don’t even think the point of the “Out of My Mind” (5.04) scene was mainly to try to ‘fool’ the audience into thinking that happened. I consider that the point of the scene was to do a Buffy/Spike scene and keep it going as long as possible for it to be believable that Spike would continue the dream. More was actually shot than was shown in the episode and the dream ends with Spike telling Buffy that he loves her. Buffy and Spike being attracted to each other shouldn’t have been news to the audience. I still don’t know why they edited out the continuation of the scene. Censorship seems unlikely given what happens in “Intervention” (5.18). And Spike having sex with Buffy and telling her during sex that he’s in love with her would have had a similar effect for the character. So, other than keeping the audience unaware of what kind of sex Spike would want to have with Buffy, there seems no reasonable point for editing the scene.



Jack Shaftoe


My quote: In canon, Buffy actually wasn’t relatively that bothered by what Spike did in “Out of My Mind” (5.04). So, yes, it is believable that Buffy would have kissed Spike back and admitted to wanting him.

As much as I do find it extremely stupid, OOC and implausible that Buffy wasn't bothered much by what Spike did, I would have to agree with you. Spike’s tried to kill Buffy multiple times, tried to kill Angel, “Lovers Walk” (3.08), tried to kill Willow in “The Initiative” (4.07); Spike betrayed them to Adam. Buffy didn’t even do anything to Harmony (who was with Spike) and Harmony tried to kill Willow (“Harsh Light of Day” (4.03)), and she kidnapped and probably would have killed Dawn (“Real Me” (5.02)).


At the time the expected behaviour for Buffy would have been to try to stake Spike or give him a good beating or at least a good scolding. Buffy did whip out her stake and threaten to dust him.


Even most Spuffy shippers wouldn't expect them to start making out just like that. Again, it was a Richard III moment. And, again: “Something Blue” (4.09).


My quote: Also, she was making out with Angel in “Revelations” (3.07) even after all he did and tried to do in BtVS S2.

Apples and oranges much? First, Angel had a soul. Second, they had been dating before that. So however ill-advised I might consider Buffy kissing him in Revelations, it's not really comparable to kissing Spike in Out of My Mind. Buffy in BtVS S6 actually gets with an even eviler version of Spike than the one in “Out of My Mind” (5.04).


My quote: People knew that Riley was leaving the show.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't you say that you first watched the show after it was over? I said that I started posting on Buffyverse Boards in 2005. I watched the series when it first aired.


How do you know what "people" knew at the time? This was widely reported to the point that Joss and Co. tried to do a ‘fakeout’ in “Into the Woods” (5.10) by promoting Spike being staked by Riley because James Marsters was going to be doing some big movie (and getting paid a lot of money to do it). Essentially, this was all to try to hide that Riley was going to be leaving in that episode.


I think we can be reasonably sure that the vast majority of viewers didn't follow the stuff behind the scenes and even those that did couldn't be certain Riley was a goner at that point. BtVS was HUGE in the media. It’s possible that more people knew that Riley was leaving the show than actually watched the show.


I mean that Buffy's criterion for picking romantic partners isn't just "coolness". Sure, but if a ‘cooler’ guy was around, she got with that guy instead of getting with Xander.


My quote: Plus, it seems that she didn’t have Willow to any spell on her to rid of the “Something Blue” (4.09) memories.

Nor did she ask Willow to delete any other of the many unpleasant memories she had gathered over the years, so again I consider this detail completely irrelevant. Might as well claim Buffy secretly enjoyed trying a strip tease on Xander because she didn't ask those memories to be deleted either... That’s not actually a good point because this is combined with Buffy not killing Spike and Buffy actually getting with him and him being at-worst one of the top two loves of Buffy’s life. Buffy’s ‘unpleasant memories’ either involve her family or slaying activities. And in “BB&B” (2.16) being a rat would be worse than simply flirting with Xander and showing her legs to him (and at the time, Buffy habitually wore micro miniskirts anyway. Heck, in “The Witch” (1.03), Xander had already seen her bent over in underwear and in “Never Kill A Boy on the First Date” (1.09?), Xander was in her bedroom while she was changing and she could know he had been, through a mirror, looking at her changing.)



KingofCretins


She wasn't proposing to him, she was suggesting they go do something just the two of them. On a date with Buffy heavily flirting with Xander in a way that she never even did with Owen Thurman or Angel.


The framing of the story -- really in both cases* -- is to weave an illusion that does make facial sense and then dispel it before it can be challenged and the tension it creates dissipates. No, because the Buffy/Spike thing continues to the point that Buffy’s last word in the TV Buffyverse is “Spike”, Angel in AtS s5 fully believes that Buffy would welcome Spike with open arms, Andrew informs Spike that Buffy would be with Spike if Spike simply went to her, and “Buffy” only begins to ‘move on’ around 9 months after Spike’s death and even then she’s not in a serious relationship. The comics only furthered Buffy/Spike. With “BB&B” (2.16), there was never an illusion because we already knew the spell didn’t work on Cordy and in the beginning of the episode, Buffy expresses zero happiness or contentment that Xander tells her that he’s still into Buffy.


I don't think it's worth debating what the writers were going for, if they didn't want us to buy into the moment, they would have thrown a filter on the lens and wavy line action or something. That’s silly.


What we're really arguing about is which is more believable -- a) single Buffy sizing up single Xander and thinking that maybe they should go on one date, or b) involved Buffy going to confront Spike who had just tried to kill her boyfriend and, y'know, her, and then jumping him instead. No, YOU brought up the “Out of My Mind” (5.04) thing. I did not intend to discuss that in this thread. As-is, I’m not going to edit the Buffy/Spike stuff in this post and move it to the Spuffy section because I’d have to edit earlier posts to make the discussion make sense (or at least full) and that’d simply take too long.

Anyway, “BB&B” (2.16) isn’t believable because of how Buffy viewed Xander before that scene, including the opening scene in the episode.

By the time the ending scene of “Out of My Mind” (5.04) starts, there’s a lot of Buffy/Spike setup.

________________________________________________


Of course, I don't believe that that scene is implying at all that Buffy has "fallen" for Xander, not up front -- just that she's looked at him in a different way and decided there might be a dating option there after all. She’s heavily flirting with him in a way that she didn’t even do with Owen Thurman. And she was clearly very into Owen at the time.


It honestly is incomprehensible to me how that is anybody's believability Rubicon that simply can't be crossed. Yet you say that “Out of My Mind” (5.04) is less believable even though since “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01) it’s been clear that Buffy’s not into Xander and Buffy/Spike was already set up in “School Hard” (2.03).


Especially since it's an illusion that the audience is meant to be drawn into for less than two minutes. It’s not.


You would think that no friends in the history of mankind had ever started dating on reconsideration. This isn’t ‘the history of mankind’: this is the Buffyverse. For the Buffyverse, Cordy had always been attracted to Angel and Fred never considered Wesley “one of the girls”.



Blix


Xander has a tendency to get stuck on the past and begrudge rather than see past it for the importance of the moment (example: any situation involving the help of Spike or Angel against someone or something that is trying to kill them). Huh? Xander in BtVS S7 after “Him” (7.06) is relatively very supportive of Spike outside of his momentary hesitancy about Buffy having Spike at her house after he’s killed a bunch of people.


I believe besides Spike Xander is one of the few clear-headed minds of the Scooby gang during a crisis. Huh? Buffy isn’t clear-headed? Willow is mostly clear-headed and has even taken over leadership when Buffy is unavailable. Giles is mostly clear-headed until he leaves in BtVS S6. Anya in BtVS S4 and after is mostly clear-headed.

Jack Shaftoe
19-12-12, 07:02 AM
BtVS was HUGE in the media. It’s possible that more people knew that Riley was leaving the show than actually watched the show.

Most people don't follow behind the scene details of even shows they watch, let alone those they don't watch. Stop confusing the die-hard internet fandom with the general mass of viewers. Most of them wouldn't care enough to even remember individual episodes names, let along go hunt spoilers or casting news. I wasn't watching then and have no idea what the media was saying but considering that according to you they were trying to hide Riley's departure six episodes later, it makes no sense to assume most people already knew it at the time Out of My Mind was filmed. Filmed, not aired since we are talking about why it was filmed that way. The news being widely reported weeks or months later is completely irrelevant to our discussion.


Sure, but if a ‘cooler’ guy was around, she got with that guy instead of getting with Xander.

Yes, and she also picked the white guy rather than Wood. That doesn't automatically mean that when Spike isn't available she will never pick Wood or any black man as long as there is a white guy, any white guy, to choose instead, does it? Same with "coolness".


Buffy in BtVS S6 actually gets with an even eviler version of Spike than the one in “Out of My Mind” (5.04).

Which happened after plenty of setup, so apples and oranges. It's like skipping from The Freshman to Family without realizing you have skipped some episodes - Willow sleeping with a woman wouldn't feel all that plausible if you miss all the stuff in between, right?


“Fool For Love” (5.07) has them on a ‘date’.

No amount of quotation marks is going to make this statement any less laughable, sorry.


Buffy did whip out her stake and threaten to dust him.

And that's relevant how exactly? She threatened him...as some sort of foreplay. How is that a plausible scenario again?


Other than the in-canon reasons for it being implausible is the fact that most of the audience were still supporting Buffy/Angel and already a sizable number were supporting Buffy/Spike. Buffy/Xander has always had about no support and at the time, more likely wanted Xander/Willow than wanted Buffy/Xander.

I find it funny how you adamantly insist that Whedon apparently never decided anything, he just listened to the most vocal shipping faction. Not that I don't think he pandered a lot, mind you, but I would imagine he wasn't quite as constrained by the desires of the shippers as you make it sound.


“Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01) it’s been clear that Buffy’s not into Xander and Buffy/Spike was already set up in “School Hard” (2.03).

You are right, "Welcome to the Hellmouth” made it clear Buffy and Xander were never going to be a couple but she and Spike trying to kill each other, repeatedly, in the episode they first met was obvious set up for impending romance. Gotcha. How silly of me to think that trying to kill each other meant they must not have liked each other very much. They were just faking it! I have seen the light!

vampmogs
19-12-12, 07:07 AM
Joss Whedon did the body switch to have a “Buffy”/Spike scene.

... you think Joss Whedon went through all the trouble of getting Eliza Dushku back on the show, and that they brought back Faith's character, and conceived her whole story, just so they could do the "Buffy"/Spike scene?

Yes. I'm sure it was All. About. Spike. I'm sure it had nothing to do with, ya know, Faith, or her redemption. I'm also sure it was just a coincidence that it played right into the Buffy/Faith dynamic with Faith literally taking over Buffy's life, an obvious fear of Buffy's in Faith, Hope & Trick and something Faith had wanted as expressed in Enemies. But, nah, not at all relevant to their relationship at all! It was just about Spike, right?!

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4944/qi9qg.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/qi9qg.gif/)

KingofCretins
19-12-12, 07:48 AM
... you think Joss Whedon went through all the trouble of getting Eliza Dushku back on the show, and that they brought back Faith's character, and conceived her whole story, just so they could do the "Buffy"/Spike scene?

Did he stutter?


Yes. I'm sure it was All. About. Spike. I'm sure it had nothing to do with, ya know, Faith, or her redemption. I'm also sure it was just a coincidence that it played right into the Buffy/Faith dynamic with Faith literally taking over Buffy's life, an obvious fear of Buffy's in Faith, Hope & Trick and something Faith had wanted as expressed in Enemies. But, nah, not at all relevant to their relationship at all! It was just about Spike, right?!

Honestly, maybe that is at the root of the non-stop ragging on Xander even in threads explicitly for the praise of the character -- it challenges the basic premise that Spike is the central motivating factor for everything in the Buffyverse. Same with the Faith quadrilogy spanning "Five by Five" to "Sanctuary" -- it only makes sense if it's a pretext to have Sarah Michelle Gellar grinding on James Marsters.


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4944/qi9qg.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/qi9qg.gif/)

Perfect woman is perfect.

Jack Shaftoe
19-12-12, 07:08 PM
Hey, why not go one further - I posit that the main idea of Becoming must have been to have Spike save the world and Drusila kill a Slayer. And set up Buffy/Spike of course. The rest was mostly filler.

MikeB
06-01-13, 05:07 AM
This isn’t a Buffy/Spike thread, so I’ll going to try to refrain from responding to Buffy/Spike stuff in this thread. And I consider the blatant ‘mocking’ of me in these recent posts to be childish.



Jack Shaftoe


My quote: Sure, but if a ‘cooler’ guy was around, she got with that guy instead of getting with Xander.

Yes, and she also picked the white guy rather than Wood. That doesn't automatically mean that when Spike isn't available she will never pick Wood or any black man as long as there is a white guy, any white guy, to choose instead, does it? Same with "coolness". That she got with the ‘cooler’ guy instead of Xander is the canon of the Buffyverse. It had nothing to do with Wood being black since she would have been with Wood instead of being with Xander.


My quote: Other than the in-canon reasons for it being implausible is the fact that most of the audience were still supporting Buffy/Angel and already a sizable number were supporting Buffy/Spike. Buffy/Xander has always had about no support and at the time, more likely wanted Xander/Willow than wanted Buffy/Xander.

I find it funny how you adamantly insist that Whedon apparently never decided anything, he just listened to the most vocal shipping faction. Not that I don't think he pandered a lot, mind you, but I would imagine he wasn't quite as constrained by the desires of the shippers as you make it sound. This is another topic, but Angel was initially supposed to be killed in “Angel” (1.07). But SMG had chemistry with David Boreanaz and liked him. The rest is history. If you saw the Original Pilot, you know that Joss originally planned for Buffy and Xander to be a couple. Yet, in BtVS S4 Riley and Anya were brought in instead of getting Buffy and Xander together. Joss could have easily had Xander keeping his military knowledge and fighting skills but instead he brought on someone who was less convincing as a soldier than Nicholas Brendon was. I consider that Joss likes Buffy/Spike more than Buffy/Angel and given how he talks about Spike compared to how he talks about Angel, it seems certain he likes Spike more than he likes Angel. And Joss went to Nic Brendon in BtVS S4 or something and told him that he wanted to kill Xander off.


You are right, "Welcome to the Hellmouth” made it clear Buffy and Xander were never going to be a couple I said something like it’s been clear since “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01) that Buffy’s not into Xander.



vampmogs


My quote: Joss Whedon did the body switch to have a “Buffy”/Spike scene.

... you think Joss Whedon went through all the trouble of getting Eliza Dushku back on the show, and that they brought back Faith's character, and conceived her whole story, just so they could do the "Buffy"/Spike scene? I said that Joss did the body switch have a “Buffy”/Spike scene. He’s said that. He also said that Kendra was brought on in order for Joss to do the line: “Two Slayers, no waiting.”

MikeB
09-04-13, 11:40 AM
http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/03/xander-harris-hyena-boy/

I haven't read the comments yet, but I agree with most of what's asserted.

_______

(From what I remember I disagreed with what was asserted:)

* Xander was never the moral center of the group and Buffy never treated him as such.


* Xander wasn't "rewarded" with having sex with Faith. She was horny, he was there, and he's a good-looking guy.


* Buffy was not flirting with him at the end of "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" (2.16).


* At-most, Buffy in "End of Days" (7.21) was simply mentioning he saved her life in "Prophecy Girl" (1.12). She doesn't actually think he's her strength. And she was having him take Dawn away from the fight.


* Xander's being Buffy's Number 2 is simply because those like Willow and Giles were elsewhere.