8.04 "The Long Way Home, Part IV"

[KingofCretins]

Well, just got a copy of Issue #4 and read it. Pretty awesome as the first arc wraps up and the nature of Buffy's enemy is revealed.

I'm not a fan of Warren being around, and I'm troubled by the implications of Amy having saved him. For those spoiled on this issue, "Amy did it" has became a common refrain when talking about things that people didn't like about Seasons 6 and 7 because of the implication that she was watching and plotting and actually rescued Warren or resuscitated him somehow. As I thought, they escape, and thereby become the first two official member of the Season 8 "rogue's gallery".

The kiss? Unsettled, but they definitely tease that it was Satsu, as Buffy takes notice of her cinnamon lip gloss when she borrows it. I still think, based on how Issue #3 was drawn, that not having it be Xander is a bit of a cheat. Also a character cheat, because Xander would have *tried* just to help Buffy. Having one of her Slayers having a crush on her is an interesting storyline, but I still think it would be a huge retcon to have Buffy reciprocate.

Xander continues to rock, and I think it is almost fair to call him the boss. The Slayers refer to Buffy that way, but it's Xander that Buffy asks what they should do, and Xander that organizes the rescue.

Turns out the three x's aren't much of a mystery, simply being Ethan's cell number. Not that it helped him much, seeing as he's dead. Very surprising way to get rid of a recurring character.

I haven't decided how I feel about humanity being Buffy's new enemy, this 'twilight' idea.

[smashed]

I got it too!

I have to say, while it was good, I think issue three was the best of the four issue arc. I enjoyed seeing Amy's mom (even if it wasn't her, it was still nice), and I can't believe Ethan is dead! I also loved the logo at the end of the last page! :-D

One Question: Where is Kennedy in all of this? :lol:

[KingofCretins]

Probably don't need to spoiler tag anything in the issue's discussion thread, smashed :)

The logo was pretty cool, I think it was there to give it that "executive producer Joss Whedon" touch.

Seeing Catherine, as an illusion ostensibly, was cool. I was a bit puzzled by the idea that Buffy was doing a trick that Willow taught her? That would make that only the second spell Buffy has ever cast.

Kennedy is not around. Willow made it sound like they were broken up during Issue #3.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Haven't read this one yet, but re what kingof cretins says...

The kiss? Unsettled, but they definitely tease that it was Satsu, as Buffy takes notice of her cinnamon lip gloss when she borrows it. I still think, based on how Issue #3 was drawn, that not having it be Xander is a bit of a cheat. Also a character cheat, because Xander would have *tried* just to help Buffy. Having one of her Slayers having a crush on her is an interesting storyline, but I still think it would be a huge retcon to have Buffy reciprocate.

They didn't say Buffy had to reciprocate, did they? I thought it just had to be someone who's in love with Buffy, not someone Buffy's in love with. Ergo a crushing slayer would work.

However, since as you say, they haven't actually revealed it yet, and have teased it as Satsu, this might be a double bluff, bringing it back to Xander?

[KingofCretins]

No, Buffy doesn't have to reciprocate per the spell, but it limits the story options they have. Buffy borrowed the lip gloss from Satsu as they were getting ready to go after Willow. Satsu does look slightly abashed when Buffy notes that it's cinnamon. But, hey, if she loans it out, she loans it out. Maybe Xander *is* secretly fooling around with various Slayers but is in love with Buffy and had the gloss on his lips? :)

Or, the gloss might really be a red herring.

[smashed]

Probably don't need to spoiler tag anything in the issue's discussion thread, smashed :)

The logo was pretty cool, I think it was there to give it that "executive producer Joss Whedon" touch.

Seeing Catherine, as an illusion ostensibly, was cool. I was a bit puzzled by the idea that Buffy was doing a trick that Willow taught her? That would make that only the second spell Buffy has ever cast.

Kennedy is not around. Willow made it sound like they were broken up during Issue #3.

Ok, I think you're right about the spoiler tags. :-)

I also just re-read the part about Willow and Kennedy and I'm not sure if they're still dating or what. :confused3:

"We're just taking it slow for a while. She's sort of in her own space, but it's cool."

[Dorian's Kitten]

So Joss is definitely enjoying teasing us lately.

The lipgloss bit was a tad too contrived, I thought. It just seemed like: "Hey, let's come up with a way to make it look like Satsu was the kisser...hmm what if her lipgloss tastes like cinnamon...and right before going into battle Buffy decides she likes sharing germs and borrows it...yeah that'll work". It didn't work for me.

I found that I was surprisingly upset by Ethan's death. It was just so sudden, I guess that I was prepared for it. Also I think I started expecting him to play a bigger role in the arc. Could the whole triple X thing really just be about the door he was behind? 'Cause wow, I over-thought that one.

I am loving the new bossy-confident Xander. It does feel like they are making him leading man material. (KoC will be so happy!)

Willow's powers are all mysterious. I kind of hope they spell them out for us soon. I don't want it to feel like: "Right and couldn't Willow just fix that?" for the whole season/arc. Maybe they need to do something to drain her a bit.

[KingofCretins]

The "X" thing was a big old red herring, it seems. I think the Hamlet quote might be relevant, though, I'd have to read it again. If it is, it's just as a commentary on poor Ethan's fate.

Bossy-confident Xander is awesome. I love that the showed him still just the *slightest* bit edgy about not being able to A) fight at Buffy's side and B) go see to saving Willow himself, because that's true to who he is.

[ThePoet's<3]

LOVED this issue!! Very exciting!

I'm uncomfortable with the "watching over you" information as well. That actually does seem like Joss is retconning portions of Season 7 especially when he refers to the spell between Willow and Kennedy - Season 7. But I can't imagine him doing that.

The Kiss - I still think everybody's got a hat in the ring at this point. The very reason they are still dragging it out means he hasn't revealed the REAL Kisser yet. He wants to make sure enough fingers are pointed at other characters before he annouces who really kissed her.

Isn't Satsu and the Slayer who has a crush on Xander close friends? Perhaps she borrowed Satsu's lip gloss, kissed Xander then Xander kisses Buffy... (Given enough time, I can work this out to the desired outcome... :D)

Ethan can't be dead... :( I always like Ethan. But no one is ever actually dead in Buffy are they? ;)

Okay - explain to me the 4 "ghoulies". I was lost as to where they took Willow and who her "hosts" were...

I'm okay with this story about the "world" against the Slayer. Buffy is a BIG organization now with all the Potentials. I don't think it is too far fetched (in Buffyverse) to think people (this military group) would be threatened by such a powerful group of - girls and young women! And we are not sure yet whether all the Slayers are on the same page as Buffy. There was division in the ranks in Season 7.

One thing - I get a charge out of seeing Buffy with the Slayer Scythe!

[bishopcruz]

Xander is definitely the high point of the series so far. It's just good to see him not ignored for once. Let's hope this continues.

The thing with Satsu does not make any sense when you look at the kissing scene, she isn't even secondarily placed in any of the panels on that scene, had been out fighting Zombies earlier. She *might* be the slayer in the top left of the top panel on the page where Buffy gets kissed, but it's hard to make out.

Either way, even if it was her, her placement, and the way the scene resolved makes her being the kisser pretty damned ridiculous.

Rayne shocked the hell out of me. And the overall idea for the story seems like it could be pretty sweet. I didn't like the lines about a 'master race' though, that didn't make much sense. And Warren not being dead was pretty crappy as well.

[Veverka]

hhmmm, right there with a bunch of you...
Don't get me wrong, very happy to be sitting here with #8.4 in front of me, but there was some disappointment... but, oh, wait, it's Joss, and he likes to annoy the crap out of us!!!!
I just felt that in spite of the resolviness of Willow not being lobotomised, it would have been nice to un-giant Dawn one of these days... am I right???!!!
As for the cinamon thing... hey, I like Satsu, and she and Buffy... um, okay, maybe not... but seriously, of all the junior slayers, she's pretty cool.
As for the "Amy was watching it all" thing- seems like a cheap shot... are we sure it wasn't Willow who was kissed by someone in love/obsessed with her?
REALLY hope to log in tomorrow to read more feedback and thoughts!!!

[Dorian's Kitten]

Yeah, the biggest annoyance is the weirdness with Warren somehow being alive. He had to die. That's why the first could appear in his form. I just can't accept that Joss would retcon this. He has to know that his audience is not the typical comic audience. We cannot handle a retcon. Seriously, Joss if your reading: We cannot handle an unexplained living Warren.

[bishopcruz]

What does everyone think of Willow's new uber-powers. I love that they are cool and all. But do you think it is a little overboard? I mean healing one's self instantly from major wounds and a freaking lobotomy is pretty hardcore. I'm wondering if they are setting up Willow as unkillable early on in order to smack us with something really harsh, like her getting heavily wounded in the future, or possibly killed. That would be surprising if nothing else.

[vampmogs]

Okay I actually managed to get my hands on the comic early and read it twice before I get mine mailed so here are my thoughts :)

I don't have a problem with Joss revealing Amy had been watching the entire time and that she and Warren had plotted together the hex on Willow in season seven. It makes perfect sense to me, in 'The Killer In Me Amy states she knows that Willow nearly destroyed the world, knew Buffy was housing the potential slayers and obviously knew about Warren as the hex turned her into him. How would she know any of this if she wasn't keeping tracks on the Scoobies? It was pretty evident she had been keeping an eye on Willow.

As far as Warren being back, well I really like it, I only wish we got to see more of him. I thought he was going to play a major role in this issue and whilst he ended up doing some pretty horrific things to Willow (although she bounced right back from them :confused3: ) I was expecting a little more. I was dying to see Buffy's reaction to Warren but it was kind of just a shocked face then we moved on, I wanted more time to see how she dealt with the situation. I also think Joss will tell us why the First could take control, like Buffy Warren technically died did he not? This means he is under the category of 'the living dead' like Buffy was, hence the First could still take his form. Although I have to wonder, why wouldn't the First reveal some point in s7 that Warren was alive again, wouldn't it scew the scoobies up?

Now the lip gloss.. I don't believe it is Satsu and I think this is one of those things to fool us fans. Remember OMWF when we see Dawn with the necklace to summon Sweet and everyone assumes it to be her? Yet, at the last minute.. oops it's Xander? It is very possible we could be having a similair thing going on here. I wouldn't be surprised if at the last minute we learn Xander wears lip gloss secretly or something silly and humerous like that.

On the topic of Xander, I agree with everyone in saying that he has been the best thing of season eight so far in terms of character development. It is as if Joss realised how much he screwed over his character in the later years of Btvs and now is making an amends for it by giving him a kick arse role. I really loved how he was mature enough to think things through and make Buffy take someone else into battle with her. He knows his strengths, he knows his limits, and he knew they couldn't mess around when Willow's life was at stake. And he was right, if Buffy and Xander had went through that portal there is a major possibility that Xander could have been killed by all those men, he is just a man, not a slayer and Buffy needed someone with super powers to get through this. Go Xander!

(Sosa Lola your love for Xander is becoming contagious ;) )

Ethan Rayne! I couldn't believe it, I actually read through the comic the first time and hadn't realised he had died :halo: The when I went back through I was just shocked! For Joss to kill off a character so brutally and quickly was most certainly a shock. In a way it was bound to happen sooner or later to Ethan, he kept getting himself into bad situations but I was still shocked. One prominent recurring character dead just like that-wow!... Wonder how Giles will take the news?

Giles- lack of, wish he was in it.. when are we going to see him with the Scoobies?

The Scythe- freakin great to see that again, I wondered where Buffy had statched that away.

Killing humans!- Now Buffy says she doesn't want to, she orders Satsu not to if she can but she wounds them pretty bad that if Willlow doesn't heal them they may all die. Now I have no problem with this and I think Buffy has come to a real good place here. I have never had problems with Buffy killing humans in a kill or be killed situation and I think she has matured to the point to realise it can't always be as black and white as humans good demons bad. Buffy doesn't go out of her way to kill humans, heck she'll even heal them if she can, but she won't be afraid to do so if need be. I like this new Buffy :)

I wasn't a fan of the art in some of the panels.. in particular the way Willow's spiritual sequence was drawn, nor Buffy when speaking to Dawn at the beginning of the issue. But owell, it is usually good.

In terms of Willow's power, I didn't like her chanelling her magic through Buffy I found that a bit fanficy and cheesy. I hope this doesn't become a regular thing.

And Buffy is facing the entire world! Now this is weird and a unexpected turn I wasn't prepared for this! I loved how Voll mentioned The First and how he mentioned how Buffy knew how dark her power was from Get it Done. Remember Buffy's dream in Issue #2;

BUFFY: No I can't go outside I'm afriad of the dark!
XANDER: Buffy you are the dark!
BUFFY: That's what I meant!

This was a major hint as to what was to come and a very interesting angle. We've explored Buffy's darkness before, and for the demon essence inside her always calling on her to slay, slay. Well I wonder how much of this is accurate, or if Voll is somehow deranged. I still think this opens up major opportunities to have Dracula show up on the scene. People have stated Drac only ever flew in bat form but I don't think it'd be an inconsistency to assume he could fly in regular form as well, and remember in s5 how he explained to Buffy about her darkness and how she went out hunting again and again? What if this is what Voll is talking about? That constant need to hunt and slay?

All I can say is very interesting...

[KingofCretins]

Warren being back is fine, and honestly, we can infer that he *must* have died at some point *because* we saw the First in his form. It's only a continuity error if they clearly establish that he never was killed. It'll be important, though, to see Willow insist that nobody act like everything is okay now and she's off the hook for having murdered him. The only part of it that's implausible to me is how Amy would have gotten him out of there without Willow realizing what had happened.

Now the lip gloss.. I don't believe it is Satsu and I think this is one of those things to fool us fans. Remember OMWF when we see Dawn with the necklace to summon Sweet and everyone assumes it to be her? Yet, at the last minute.. oops it's Xander? It is very possible we could be having a similair thing going on here. I wouldn't be surprised if at the last minute we learn Xander wears lip gloss secretly or something silly and humerous like that.

I think the biggest piece of information we got is that Satsu lets people borrow her lipgloss. She has actually dropped to #3 on my list of suspects. First is still Xander. I could see him either A) goofing around with the lipgloss or B) it just being a complete red herring. Second is Rowena. She would have been in fine position to borrow the lipgloss, and she seemed completely shredded that Buffy didn't pick her. Third is Satsu.

Ethan Rayne! I couldn't believe it, I actually read through the comic the first time and hadn't realised he had died The when I went back through I was just shocked! For Joss to kill off a character so brutally and quickly was most certainly a shock. In a way it was bound to happen sooner or later to Ethan, he kept getting himself into bad situations but I was still shocked. One prominent recurring character dead just like that-wow!... Wonder how Giles will take the news?

I think Giles will be far more upset than even he wishes. Even as enemies, Ethan was a brother of sorts. In "A New Man" they articulate the bond between them very well. Plus, given Giles feelings about Twilight's apparent agenda and the fact that Ethan helped save both of his adopted daughters' lives, we can expect to see Ripper having someone answer for it. I hope that they take Voll back to the BHC for more discussion, and that Giles gets to ask him some questions.

The Scythe- freakin great to see that again, I wondered where Buffy had statched that away.

I wasn't surprised that it was stored. I was a little surprised that it seems to be so presumptively Buffy's personal weapon. In Season 7, they did so much to establish the sense of ownership and comfort with its use that all the Slayers felt. For Buffy to claim it is her right as leader, but it is actually a bit telling about how fully she has stepped into that role.

Killing humans!- Now Buffy says she doesn't want to, she orders Satsu not to if she can but she wounds them pretty bad that if Willlow doesn't heal them they may all die. Now I have no problem with this and I think Buffy has come to a real good place here. I have never had problems with Buffy killing humans in a kill or be killed situation and I think she has matured to the point to realise it can't always be as black and white as humans good demons bad. Buffy doesn't go out of her way to kill humans, heck she'll even heal them if she can, but she won't be afraid to do so if need be. I like this new Buffy

Buffy has killed humans before in untenable situations, and I was pleased that she still draws a brightline between human life and demon. And that she promised (albeit presumptively) to help them in exchange for Willow's location.

I was more pleased by the dynamic between her and Satsu and the other Slayers. I love the new Slayer characters (Alpha Team and Renee). Plus, Satsu's goofy teddy bear shoulderpad and what looked like a Pac-Man ghost shoulderpad were adorable.

In terms of Willow's power, I didn't like her chanelling her magic through Buffy I found that a bit fanficy and cheesy. I hope this doesn't become a regular thing.

Not sure how I felt about it either. Buffy has never shown much of an interest in learning magic, even though she did quite well with the trance spell in "No Place Like Home". It could easily make her seem too powerful. I do like it as a device to show her ties to her friends are very much repaired. It reminded me of the "Primeval" enjoining spell.

Buffy against humanity is an interesting and new angle. I hope that it's not just a new version of the "misogyny is the real enemy" angle. There are interesting implications to Twilight's concerns. The Slayers *are* a "master race". And Buffy is both awesome and a little bit scary with the nonchalance in which she excepts his challenge. Power is resented in every form by those who do not wield it, and I would love to see Buffy exploring those themes.

[vampmogs]

Warren being back is fine, and honestly, we can infer that he *must* have died at some point *because* we saw the First in his form. It's only a continuity error if they clearly establish that he never was killed. It'll be important, though, to see Willow insist that nobody act like everything is okay now and she's off the hook for having murdered him. The only part of it that's implausible to me is how Amy would have gotten him out of there without Willow realizing what had happened.

I agree, even if Willow's killing of him wasn't permanent the fact of the matter is that she killed a man. Wether he is now back or not doesn't change the fact it was her intent which she followed through with conviction. If anyone were to suggest she'd be off the hook, I'd hope Willow would correct them.


I think the biggest piece of information we got is that Satsu lets people borrow her lipgloss. She has actually dropped to #3 on my list of suspects. First is still Xander. I could see him either A) goofing around with the lipgloss or B) it just being a complete red herring. Second is Rowena. She would have been in fine position to borrow the lipgloss, and she seemed completely shredded that Buffy didn't pick her. Third is Satsu.

Interesting point, Rowena did seem quite upset Buffy choose Satsu over her and there was that jealous comment about how in the previous Issue Buffy had spoke about Satsu's great hair. It is entirley possible Satsu felt so akward because she knew Rowena had feelings for Buffy and yet was picked and it'd be likely for the girls to share makeup and lip gloss. I'm still betting on Xander though, why would Joss tease us with the dream and with the panels in the kissing scene if there was no Bander set up?


I think Giles will be far more upset than even he wishes. Even as enemies, Ethan was a brother of sorts. In "A New Man" they articulate the bond between them very well. Plus, given Giles feelings about Twilight's apparent agenda and the fact that Ethan helped save both of his adopted daughters' lives, we can expect to see Ripper having someone answer for it. I hope that they take Voll back to the BHC for more discussion, and that Giles gets to ask him some questions.

I agree, whilst they showed chose different sides, and probably even disliked eachother a great deal- they had known eachother for many years. For Ethan to be killed so brutally and suddenly, it'd be hard for Giles not to feel something. Also, as you said, Ethan was helping the slayers as well so Giles will feel more sympathy.



I wasn't surprised that it was stored. I was a little surprised that it seems to be so presumptively Buffy's personal weapon. In Season 7, they did so much to establish the sense of ownership and comfort with its use that all the Slayers felt. For Buffy to claim it is her right as leader, but it is actually a bit telling about how fully she has stepped into that role.

I don't really have a problem with this. I think even though they are now all slayers someone still needs to take charge and the obvious choice would be Buffy. If this is the case I think the scythe is the perfect weapon for the leader to have, after all if it weren't for Buffy's plan the rest of them wouldn't be slayers. It is kind of fitting that the item used to make all the girls slayers is weilded by the slayer in charge.



Buffy has killed humans before in untenable situations, and I was pleased that she still draws a brightline between human life and demon. And that she promised (albeit presumptively) to help them in exchange for Willow's location.

As was I, I wouldn't have been happy if Buffy had told Satsu to kill anyone that she saw, either human or demon. However, the fact she has matured to the point where she accepts it is a possibility is refreshing. Sure she has killed before but I never felt this from her, I do now.

I was more pleased by the dynamic between her and Satsu and the other Slayers. I love the new Slayer characters (Alpha Team and Renee). Plus, Satsu's goofy teddy bear shoulderpad and what looked like a Pac-Man ghost shoulderpad were adorable.

Reading season eight, I just don't see how they went so wrong in s7. I was worried, as were lots of fans, that more slayers would just be more annoying as the potentials were in season seven. However, these new slayers know their place, are sassy and cool, respect Buffy and she respects them. I love their dynamics and little quirks.

I know in Issue #5 that Vi (or Violet as he is now being called) and Rona are coming back, but in some ways I don't really want them to. Unless Rona is written far better I don't know how I'll handle her annoying attitude after seeing so many more pleasent slayers. Unless of course she has had a major personality transplant since being the slayer.

Not sure how I felt about it either. Buffy has never shown much of an interest in learning magic, even though she did quite well with the trance spell in "No Place Like Home". It could easily make her seem too powerful. I do like it as a device to show her ties to her friends are very much repaired. It reminded me of the "Primeval" enjoining spell.

I wasn't entirley sure wether Buffy had learnt that trick or if Willow had kind of just taken control of Buffy's body and Buffy kind of figured out what was going on? How would she have learnt it really when they hadn't seen eachother in a year? I don't want Buffy to be seen as too powerful either, especially when at this point Willow is looking fairly indestructable.

I also like how their friendship seems repaired, I love how Willow is back to calling Buffy her best friend, it puts a smile on my face. I think it may be a case of that old saying 'time makes the heart grow fonder.' The year apart made them closer in an odd way, and Buffy and Xander's friendship seems as great as ever, although that didn't need as much repairing as the Buffy/Willow bond.

Buffy against humanity is an interesting and new angle. I hope that it's not just a new version of the "misogyny is the real enemy" angle. There are interesting implications to Twilight's concerns. The Slayers *are* a "master race". And Buffy is both awesome and a little bit scary with the nonchalance in which she excepts his challenge. Power is resented in every form by those who do not wield it, and I would love to see Buffy exploring those themes.

Are we thinking Buffy could be corrupted by power? I'm not sure what Joss will explore here? This idea that underneath the demon within will never let Buffy not slay even if they wipe out all demons is interesting. Buffy vows not to fight the Master but feels compelled to do so, she runs away from Sunnydale but ends up feeling compelled to slay the Scourage in LA, she finally gets her wish to live a normal life and ends up running a slayer organisation.. is this heroism or is this, this nagging deeper urge to slay? After 'Primevil' Buffy got closer to the true essence of the slayer's power, and as a result couldn't stop hunting in Buffy VS Dracula. Perhaps what Voll is saying is true, the deeper essence of the slayers power urges the slayer to keep on killing and if there is nothing left to kill, will the slayers being turning on humans? I think it will be a case of one's own identity and that demonic urge within, which one will win out I'm not sure.

[KingofCretins]

There are so many signs that Buffy/Xander is a relationship that is ready to take place. I love the little moment when she smiles over her shoulder, with him not even looking, as her and Satsu move into position. They are as tight as they've ever been.

Buffy has taken on an air not unlike what I imagine from aristocracy. She expects the deference she's given by the Slayers. Have you noticed how few of them seem to address her directly? She doesn't ask the mystics how things are coming, she asks Xander. And when she makes her choice of a Slayer to go with her, everyone appears to be in a bit of awe of her, even though she is part of their training. I don't think it's a bad quality -- Aristotle said monarchy was a benign form of government -- but it is very new to see Buffy having matured from tyrant (Season 7, Aristotle's deviant form of government) to queen (Season 8, with apologies to Nancy Holder).

I don't mind seeing Vi and Rona again. You know Joss will write them better, and Vi was really my favorite of them. I don't think it'll be a problem since, presumably, Buffy and the gang aren't even going to be in this issue.

I think Buffy was using magic of her own, not being controlled by Willow. Amy judged it to be pretty insignificant, but that may have been part bravado. I hope they don't do it very much.

Was Willow's "did I ever tell you about my best friend?" a reference to that old song?

The friendship being restored is awesome. I especially thought it was moving when Buffy said "if (Willow) can't leave for any reason then neither can I". I took that to mean she had decided that if Willow was dead she was going to stay and have her way with whoever she found there until they were all dead or she was. That is pretty awesome.

Are we thinking Buffy could be corrupted by power? I'm not sure what Joss will explore here? This idea that underneath the demon within will never let Buffy not slay even if they wipe out all demons is interesting. Buffy vows not to fight the Master but feels compelled to do so, she runs away from Sunnydale but ends up feeling compelled to slay the Scourage in LA, she finally gets her wish to live a normal life and ends up running a slayer organisation.. is this heroism or is this, this nagging deeper urge to slay?

I think it might be exploring a theme of whether or not human beings are too petty to appreciate the champions that fight for them.

[vampmogs]

There are so many signs that Buffy/Xander is a relationship that is ready to take place. I love the little moment when she smiles over her shoulder, with him not even looking, as her and Satsu move into position. They are as tight as they've ever been.

Yeah that was a great moment I immediatly noticed that as well.

Buffy has taken on an air not unlike what I imagine from aristocracy. She expects the deference she's given by the Slayers. Have you noticed how few of them seem to address her directly? She doesn't ask the mystics how things are coming, she asks Xander. And when she makes her choice of a Slayer to go with her, everyone appears to be in a bit of awe of her, even though she is part of their training. I don't think it's a bad quality -- Aristotle said monarchy was a benign form of government -- but it is very new to see Buffy having matured from tyrant (Season 7, Aristotle's deviant form of government) to queen (Season 8, with apologies to Nancy Holder).

She does seem to work through Xander a lot more now, the only real people she has contact with is Xander, Dawn and her Alpha squad. I agree in saying this isn't particularly bad and there seems to be no resentment from the other slayers.

I don't mind seeing Vi and Rona again. You know Joss will write them better, and Vi was really my favorite of them. I don't think it'll be a problem since, presumably, Buffy and the gang aren't even going to be in this issue.

Yeah I wasn't sure if they were or were not. Spoilers say a slayer very close to Buffy will die wouldn't one expect Buffy to hear about this and wouldn't we want to see her reaction in the same Issue? I would like it if we at least see Buffy and the gang, we never had an episode without Buffy and I don't really want Issues without her in them either.

I think Buffy was using magic of her own, not being controlled by Willow. Amy judged it to be pretty insignificant, but that may have been part bravado. I hope they don't do it very much.

Oh I was under the impression that Willow chanelled through Buffy? I don't have the issue on me now as mine is still to come but isn't there some kind of link between what Willow says at the same time Buffy says it or something? I'm sure there is something to indicate Willow's mind is in Buffy, just after her spiritual guides tell her that her body will die soon and only her mind will live on? I may have read it wrong, I just thought that Willow was in Buffy or at least partially?

Was Willow's "did I ever tell you about my best friend?" a reference to that old song?

Perhaps?

The friendship being restored is awesome. I especially thought it was moving when Buffy said "if (Willow) can't leave for any reason then neither can I". I took that to mean she had decided that if Willow was dead she was going to stay and have her way with whoever she found there until they were all dead or she was. That is pretty awesome.

Yeah when I read that I couldn't help but snigger. This is the kind of scooby dynamics I love, when even though they're are so many others around them, even though they haven't all been together for a while, their bond is unbreakable and you can feel the history between them. I took it as Buffy saying if for some reason Willow can't leave, possibly a trap? Satsu is to get out of there but Buffy isn't leaving Willow behind and alone no matter what, she'd rather be captured and stay with Willow then abandon her?

I think it might be exploring a theme of whether or not human beings are too petty to appreciate the champions that fight for them.

There is most certainly that approach, it's just as you said, it was a little scary how Buffy was kind of like "kay" when she found out she was against humanity. I just got this feeling that Buffy was like, fine want to mess with us we'll deal and this attitude is towards the people she is meant to be saving. I don't think this is ultimately bad, why should Buffy be kind to those who treat her like crap because she has power? However, it was a little wow that she was so willing to accept that. Then of course we have Voll's whole speech about the demon inside always urging her on to slay, and we saw this happen in Buffy Vs Dracula and had Buffy's darkness hinted at in Issue #2. I'm just thinking Buffy may be corrupted?

I still have a feeling Drac could be the one in those flying boots ;) ... which might I add is still a mystery.

[KingofCretins]

I don't mind the heirarchy in the castle. If nothing else, it gives us a justifiable reason not to have to introduce *all* these new Slayers. The only relationship that is unfortunately strained is the one between Buffy and Dawn.

wouldn't one expect Buffy to hear about this and wouldn't we want to see her reaction in the same Issue? I would like it if we at least see Buffy and the gang, we never had an episode without Buffy and I don't really want Issues without her in them either.

Issue #5 is apparently going to be a complete standalone, a history of one of the decoys. I think that it's the decoy that will die, the one Buffy said was underground. I assume that Vi and Rona will be working with her or investigating her disappearance or something. If that's the case, it's a past event for Buffy.

Oh I was under the impression that Willow chanelled through Buffy? I don't have the issue on me now as mine is still to come but isn't there some kind of link between what Willow says at the same time Buffy says it or something? I'm sure there is something to indicate Willow's mind is in Buffy, just after her spiritual guides tell her that her body will die soon and only her mind will live on? I may have read it wrong, I just thought that Willow was in Buffy or at least partially?

I think its nicely ambiguous. Obvious Buffy was making a comment similar to Willow's when the scene changed, but they've already used that device repeatedly. I got the impression that the "part of Willow" that is always with Buffy is something that Willow taught her, a way to get her Green Lantern on.

Yeah when I read that I couldn't help but snigger. This is the kind of scooby dynamics I love, when even though they're are so many others around them, even though they haven't all been together for a while, their bond is unbreakable and you can feel the history between them. I took it as Buffy saying if for some reason Willow can't leave, possibly a trap? Satsu is to get out of there but Buffy isn't leaving Willow behind and alone no matter what, she'd rather be captured and stay with Willow then abandon her?

I read that as well, but I added an extra meaning to it. Buffy had promised Dawn. She had promised herself. I think she meant that in the most extreme way possible, that she would stay and have her revenge if Willow was dead.

I'm not going to do much speculating on Dracula now that we've been given so much to chew on. It's hard to think who else the flying boots could have belonged to. Maybe they belong to someone associated with Twilight. That is a catchy name.

[vampmogs]

I don't mind the heirarchy in the castle. If nothing else, it gives us a justifiable reason not to have to introduce *all* these new Slayers. The only relationship that is unfortunately strained is the one between Buffy and Dawn.

I kind of like that things are strained between Buffy and Dawn. One could argue that Buffy is missing one essential thing, and that is the 'soap opera' feel it always had in prior seasons. Sure we have little love triangles but nothing major and whilst I was never a fan of over dramatising Btvs, it is nice to have that familiar feel of conflict between characters. Buffy and Dawn have always fought, it is kind of nice in a weird way that they are still fighting. I think it grounds season 8.

Issue #5 is apparently going to be a complete standalone, a history of one of the decoys. I think that it's the decoy that will die, the one Buffy said was underground. I assume that Vi and Rona will be working with her or investigating her disappearance or something. If that's the case, it's a past event for Buffy.

I really can't wait for this Issue, I want to see what the slayer was doing, what she was going through and how she came to die. I also want to see what Rona and Vi do, and what their role is. However, are we thinking that the comic will shift back and forth between the past and the present? Will we have scenes of Vi and Rona in the present trying to figure out what happened, with then flashbacks of the slayer in the past? If this is the case all I hope for is for at least one panel of Buffy, talking on the phone to Vi and Rona about finding the girl or what they've learnt. Anything to have Buffy in it, just so she is in every Issue like she was every episode.

I'm extremely happy to learn it has 50 pages as well! :)

I think its nicely ambiguous. Obvious Buffy was making a comment similar to Willow's when the scene changed, but they've already used that device repeatedly. I got the impression that the "part of Willow" that is always with Buffy is something that Willow taught her, a way to get her Green Lantern on.

This is the only trouble I have with comics. I never know if Joss is being ambiguous on purpose or it is hard to understand what he is trying to show in the panels. I often get slightly confused, as you said we've seen this device repeatedly, but does that mean it wasn't his intention to show the link between Buffy and Willow this time? It is all hard to understand, I like to think Willow was channelling through Buffy because I hate the idea of her being able to use magic like that.


I read that as well, but I added an extra meaning to it. Buffy had promised Dawn. She had promised herself. I think she meant that in the most extreme way possible, that she would stay and have her revenge if Willow was dead.

If this is the case do you see anything wrong with this? Buffy tried to stop Willow from making the same mistake after Warren killed Tara, do we think Buffy should have killed everyone who was responsible for killing Willow? Even if it were Amy who like Warren was a human?

I'm not going to do much speculating on Dracula now that we've been given so much to chew on. It's hard to think who else the flying boots could have belonged to. Maybe they belong to someone associated with Twilight. That is a catchy name.

The name does rock :)

[KingofCretins]

This is the only trouble I have with comics. I never know if Joss is being ambiguous on purpose or it is hard to understand what he is trying to show in the panels. I often get slightly confused, as you said we've seen this device repeatedly, but does that mean it wasn't his intention to show the link between Buffy and Willow this time? It is all hard to understand, I like to think Willow was channelling through Buffy because I hate the idea of her being able to use magic like that.

I prefer the idea that Buffy has some access to Willow's ability than the idea that Willow is *so* powerful that, even in a trance state with a man gouging into her eye and brain with a scalpel, she can find and channel her power into Buffy.

If this is the case do you see anything wrong with this? Buffy tried to stop Willow from making the same mistake after Warren killed Tara, do we think Buffy should have killed everyone who was responsible for killing Willow? Even if it were Amy who like Warren was a human?

We've never seen Buffy in that position, and it wouldn't be the first time she's applied a double standard. As she told Xander once, "I'm the Slayer and you're... not". That said, I doubt Satsu would have left her anyway. I love Satsu.

[vampmogs]

I prefer the idea that Buffy has some access to Willow's ability than the idea that Willow is *so* powerful that, even in a trance state with a man gouging into her eye and brain with a scalpel, she can find and channel her power into Buffy.

In all honesty I wish that Willow was never powerful enough to sustain a man gouging into her eye and brain with a scalpel in the first place. The problem with Willow's goddess-like status is that it makes her pretty unkillable, and I ain't a fan of those who are unkillable (unless they are evil because that is just more fun.) It makes me feel weird that Willow would have a man digging into her face with a knife and yet come out fine. :confused3:

We've never seen Buffy in that position, and it wouldn't be the first time she's applied a double standard. As she told Xander once, "I'm the Slayer and you're... not". That said, I doubt Satsu would have left her anyway. I love Satsu.

Well I wouldn't say Buffy has ever really applied double standards when it comes to this sort of thing. I have always argued the case that the thing with Faith was very different to Willow and Warren.

[KingofCretins]

I'm a little unclear on the transition with Willow healing. Buffy looked *horrified* by what she saw, and Willow reached up for her and all... and then was okay. Was she kinda faking it, or did she really heal herself on the spot?

I don't worry about Willow seeming unkillable -- it works for Superman pretty well. I don't think Joss will put us in a position where she seems capable of fixing any problem.

[vampmogs]

I'm a little unclear on the transition with Willow healing. Buffy looked *horrified* by what she saw, and Willow reached up for her and all... and then was okay. Was she kinda faking it, or did she really heal herself on the spot?

I was unclear about this as well, I wasn't exactly sure as to why Buffy looked so horrified but it makes sense that she must have seen Willow before she healed herself. It would be pretty horrifying to see your best friend with her eye gouged out.

I don't worry about Willow seeming unkillable -- it works for Superman pretty well. I don't think Joss will put us in a position where she seems capable of fixing any problem.

Well Joss did put some limits on her powers, making her unable to fully heal the others after using her own energy to heal herself.

I've been surfing the net and the general consensus seems to be that Willow channelled her magic through Buffy, however this is assumption on everyone's part. I'd like to have some proper explanation for what happened there, either way. One reviewer suggested it is because Willow activated all the slayers with the scythe, hence opening up a gateway that allowed her to connect with the slayers.

How do you feel about Satsu using a grenade to knock Amy out of the way? Did Satsu have this grenade on her from the BHC? Or did she just pick it up from one of the army guys? I know the slayers had guns that could blast away portals, but if they actually have arsenal like grenades.. Well I ain’t too sure if I like this. They make it pretty clear that slayers don’t use guns, but it’s okay for them to use grenades?

[KingofCretins]

How do you feel about Satsu using a grenade to knock Amy out of the way? Did Satsu have this grenade on her from the BHC? Or did she just pick it up from one of the army guys? I know the slayers had guns that could blast away portals, but if they actually have arsenal like grenades.. Well I ain’t too sure if I like this. They make it pretty clear that slayers don’t use guns, but it’s okay for them to use grenades?

Satsu took it off the soldier that Buffy high-kicked as they reached that intersection in the hallway.

I don't mind them using them. I get their preference for the archaic weapons, but I think the hard-line anti-gun position is a little less than pragmatic. We've seen Buffy handle firearms on several occasions, and even threaten a man with one ("Who Are You?"). I think Slayers have an innate skill with weapons, and prefer to think the gun thing is a by-product of how few demons they reliably have an effect on rather than some kind of principled stand against them. And, in that case, it's totally reasonable to use the grenade (which was Xander's order). Incidentally, I wonder how Buffy would feel about Xander carrying. I doubt he would -- he has always followed Buffy's example on such things.

[vampmogs]

Satsu took it off the soldier that Buffy high-kicked as they reached that intersection in the hallway.

I don't mind them using them. I get their preference for the archaic weapons, but I think the hard-line anti-gun position is a little less than pragmatic. We've seen Buffy handle firearms on several occasions, and even threaten a man with one ("Who Are You?"). I think Slayers have an innate skill with weapons, and prefer to think the gun thing is a by-product of how few demons they reliably have an effect on rather than some kind of principled stand against them. And, in that case, it's totally reasonable to use the grenade (which was Xander's order). Incidentally, I wonder how Buffy would feel about Xander carrying. I doubt he would -- he has always followed Buffy's example on such things.

That makes me feel better to know that the slayers didn't have them as their arsenal.

When did Buffy threaten anyone with a gun in Who are You?

I was never really sure wether or not Buffy didn't care for guns because she didn't agree with them, or if it was because of how useful they were. She does state in Flooded "these things (guns) never helpful!" but then the writers have stated the reasons they never made the scoobies have guns was because they didn't feel that it was a good image to have high school students packing guns.

[KingofCretins]

Buffy takes one of the Watchers' sidearm off of him in the armored car and uses it to escape.

Allright, heading to bed.

[bishopcruz]

Looking over the issue again, I tend to think that Willow is channeling to Buffy, probably a weaker version of what the coven did with Giles. Notice that as Willow is starting the Best Friend speech, her hand begins to glow green and the shaft of light from it goes up and then disappears. The exact same shade as the powers that Buffy uses.

I mean if she can heal herself instantly from a Lobotomy, I doubt channeling some of her power to someone she has a close link with is out of the question.

Rereading, I remembered how much I loved the scene of Xander saying to not pat themselves on the back until extraction, and then have someone tell Dawn to stop jumping up and down.

[Thomas]

Maybe activating the slayers has given Willow a connection with every slayer? That could explain why Buffy could use Willow's powers? This could also explain why Willow could heal so fast (not to mention her power boost)? She could have taken energy from some of the slayers, in small enough portions they wouldn't really notice, kind of like in 'Where Are You' when Buffy helped Willow heal after the deal with Gnarl?

[vampmogs]

Maybe activating the slayers has given Willow a connection with every slayer? That could explain why Buffy could use Willow's powers? This could also explain why Willow could heal so fast (not to mention her power boost)? She could have taken energy from some of the slayers, in small enough portions they wouldn't really notice, kind of like in 'Where Are You' when Buffy helped Willow heal after the deal with Gnarl?

I think you mean in Same Time, Same Place ;)

That is exactly the scene I was thinking of, however, it was evident she could heal on her own. Willow states she doesn't have much strength which is why it was taking her so long. Yet, after Chosen it appears Willow has a great deal of strength.

I do think there could have been a connection with Willow and all the slayers however, it is entirley possible that slayers are not the only people Willow can channel her power through. Willow could grab hold of Xander's mind in Showtime and could speak telepathically to all the scoobies in season six. It is possible now she is stronger than ever she can enter any individual.

I'm not sure Willow would be taking the slayers power without them knowing, it seems kind of wrong to me.

[KingofCretins]

Does it create a big continuity problem that Xander is still missing the eye? We've now seen two occasions where Willow has apparently been able to regenerate her own tissue magically, and it's inferred that she can heal most of the wounds Buffy and Satsu created in their assault. Is Xander just meant to have refused the attempt?

[bishopcruz]

I think that might be the case. Supposedly there will be a Xander heavy arc after the Faith arc, so they might address it then. I think it would be pretty sweet if he allowed himself to remain without an eye to serve as a reminder that they play for high stakes.

Not to mention, chicks dig scars. Heh.

If they don't address it at any point then there would be an issue. But as I said I think they will get around to it eventually.

Other posiibilities are that maybe the wound was simply too old for Willow to have done anything. Perhaps there is a limit on how long after something has happened that she can heal it. That seems a little weird to me though, simply because well, she can instantly heal herself from a lobotomy. That's pretty friggen sick.

I remember on one of the commentaries though Nick Brendan had a talk with Joss about the eye and said that if there was ever a reuinion movie or something like that then he wanted Xander to remain with the patch. So maybe that has something to do with it too.

[FollowTheRedHead]

I'm new and have been a little lurky for awhile, I decided to jump right in.

I wasn't entirley sure wether Buffy had learnt that trick or if Willow had kind of just taken control of Buffy's body and Buffy kind of figured out what was going on? How would she have learnt it really when they hadn't seen eachother in a year? I don't want Buffy to be seen as too powerful either, especially when at this point Willow is looking fairly indestructable.

I think Willow took control, notice the panel after Buffy says a part of Willow is always with her. When she says "Cause it is" her eyes look like Dark Willow. I don't think Buffy could do the dark mojo on her own, so I think its Willow running the magic show. Maybe she can't entirely give Buffy her powers, but at least use her to do the light show and distract Amy.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong. But on my second read the eyes got me.

[KingofCretins]

that was a brilliant visual touch, having her eyes go black. I don't know, though. It still feels like it had to be Buffy. I didn't take Willow's line about her best friend as being anything other than her believing Buffy would come to save her.

It was the "Dirty Girls" commentary when Nick said that he would want to keep the eyepatch. Maybe that's why they are keeping Xander in the eye-patch. It does need a storyline explanation though. I could see Xander declining on the basis that he didn't want Willow using her power when it wasn't essential.

Hey, RedHead. More posts the better.

[bishopcruz]

that was a brilliant visual touch, having her eyes go black. I don't know, though. It still feels like it had to be Buffy. I didn't take Willow's line about her best friend as being anything other than her believing Buffy would come to save her.

How do you explain the green energy that appears in Willow's hand, shooting off into nothing, then Buffy finishing the same line Willow was saying, and then having that same type of energy Willow was producing? It seems like a pretty clear indication that Willow was feeding the 'Green Lantern Force' to Buffy.


It was the "Dirty Girls" commentary when Nick said that he would want to keep the eyepatch. Maybe that's why they are keeping Xander in the eye-patch. It does need a storyline explanation though. I could see Xander declining on the basis that he didn't want Willow using her power when it wasn't essential.


Willow seems pretty free with the magic in these issues though. Though to be fair there is very little non mission oriented time for her to use magic, so it was all for the greater good.

I still think that if they are going to explain it, it will be something like Xander using his missing eye as a symbol that they face very real shit in the Buffyverse.

YMMV on all of this though.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Perhaps, Willow can heal tissue that is there but not recreate tissue. Meaning, his eye was removed, Willow couldn't create a new eye. She can only heal what is there.

[KingofCretins]

How do you explain the green energy that appears in Willow's hand, shooting off into nothing, then Buffy finishing the same line Willow was saying, and then having that same type of energy Willow was producing? It seems like a pretty clear indication that Willow was feeding the 'Green Lantern Force' to Buffy.

Not super-clear, since I still don't see any indication in the book by which we are supposed to know that Willow knew Buffy was there, much less specifically what she would need.

I don't think Xander would hang on to a pretty serious disability just as an object lesson for others. I'm assuming Willow was either incapable of healing it or he was unwilling to let her try. Maybe he heard about Lindsey's evil hand.

[bishopcruz]

Not super-clear, since I still don't see any indication in the book by which we are supposed to know that Willow knew Buffy was there, much less specifically what she would need.

Not sure about that one. Though I will say I don't like the idea of Buffy being able to just do magic out of nowhere. Hopefully they will explain things relatively soon.

[FollowTheRedHead]

Perhaps, Willow can heal tissue that is there but not recreate tissue. Meaning, his eye was removed, Willow couldn't create a new eye. She can only heal what is there.

Good thought, but I'm not so sure. Willow healed herself from the lobotomy Warren was doing, she wasn't done yet, but looking at what little we do so of his "surgery" I'd guess that he'd have had to remove something.

[KingofCretins]

Willow already had pretty significant regenerative powers when she first went Dark Willow and recovered from an ax in the back. Most of the stuff at the compound will probably take place between issues, but I'm curious exactly how much healing she is able to do there. I can't imagine that Buffy and Satsu didn't end up killing at least a few of those men.

[FollowTheRedHead]

I don't think Xander would hang on to a pretty serious disability just as an object lesson for others. I'm assuming Willow was either incapable of healing it or he was unwilling to let her try. Maybe he heard about Lindsey's evil hand.

There has to be some fear there or something as to why Xander wouldn't let Willow heal him. Or maybe Willow just didn't have the power to regenerate an eye. At least, maybe at that time she couldn't but with the time that has past, maybe her healing skills have improved.

And as I was writing this it just came to me, who is to say Xander isn't healed? There might be a reason as to why he kept the eye patch. What that reason is, I have no clue, and it's a bit of a reach, but who knows with Joss.

It's frustrating that Willow could heal herself and all of the army guys, but not Xander.

[KingofCretins]

Xander has pretty consistently on the side against Willow using her power just because she had it. That's the most likely explanation. The eyepatch is working for him, so it's probably allright.

[ThePoet's<3]

Looking over the issue again, I tend to think that Willow is channeling to Buffy, probably a weaker version of what the coven did with Giles. Notice that as Willow is starting the Best Friend speech, her hand begins to glow green and the shaft of light from it goes up and then disappears. The exact same shade as the powers that Buffy uses.

I mean if she can heal herself instantly from a Lobotomy, I doubt channeling some of her power to someone she has a close link with is out of the question.

Rereading, I remembered how much I loved the scene of Xander saying to not pat themselves on the back until extraction, and then have someone tell Dawn to stop jumping up and down.

I took from those panels that Willow channeled power to Buffy.

However, we really don't know the powers she achieved after becoming all "godessy". Also, she has been away - perhaps working on ways to use her powers?

I think you mean in Same Time, Same Place ;)

That is exactly the scene I was thinking of, however, it was evident she could heal on her own. Willow states she doesn't have much strength which is why it was taking her so long. Yet, after Chosen it appears Willow has a great deal of strength.

I do think there could have been a connection with Willow and all the slayers however, it is entirley possible that slayers are not the only people Willow can channel her power through. Willow could grab hold of Xander's mind in Showtime and could speak telepathically to all the scoobies in season six. It is possible now she is stronger than ever she can enter any individual.

I'm not sure Willow would be taking the slayers power without them knowing, it seems kind of wrong to me.

The Showtime episode was the episode I thought about as well. I wondered if Willow reached out "telepathically" to Buffy - Buffy says something about having a "connection" with Willow in that panel and then we see Willow's power exhibited in the green hand.

I'm new and have been a little lurky for awhile, I decided to jump right in.
I think Willow took control, notice the panel after Buffy says a part of Willow is always with her. When she says "Cause it is" her eyes look like Dark Willow. I don't think Buffy could do the dark mojo on her own, so I think its Willow running the magic show. Maybe she can't entirely give Buffy her powers, but at least use her to do the light show and distract Amy.
Of course, I could be entirely wrong. But on my second read the eyes got me.

The EYES! Yes, noticed the eyes going dark in that particular set of panels - also made me think of Willow.

Not sure about the healing powers of Willow. I guess I never got in Who Are You that she was drawing power from Buffy to heal her wound. I thought it was sort of metaphorically drawing power from a dear friend to continue the healing process after what she had been through. (Tara, Warren, Dark Willow) Because at the beginning of that episode, Wil is afraid to go back and Scoobies are still a little "leery" of her.

But again, with her new powers not fully explained to the readers I'm not sure.

I'm still wondering about Dawn saying Willow is like a Mother to her. I'm not slamming Willow or Buffy, but it's still a strange thing for her to say.

And the 4 "ghoulies" with Willow??? Any guesses as to who they were? Their significance?

[FollowTheRedHead]

And the 4 "ghoulies" with Willow??? Any guesses as to who they were? Their significance?

When I first saw the panel I was like "Now why is Willow talking to a Wookie?" Ha ha ha. Maybe witches with such a high level of power they ascended to a different plane and took on the appearance of their speciality in terms of magic? They could be representation of the elements of magic, but it feels like some of them don't fit or some are missing. Like there is water, one may or may not be fire, earth, the hairy one could be creatures or demons, not quite sure, and the last I guess would be knowledge, maybe logic, or the laws of the universe, the stuff that's making her up looks all mathy.

Significance is with magic, though how exactly I still don't get. I'm hoping that is explained a bit more in the future, maybe some of the magic useage in this issue will play an important role later in the arc.

[KingofCretins]

The five figures in Willow's dream/trance are pretty odd. I've heard one reasonable theory (maybe here?) that they represent the chinese version of the basic elements. I don't know. I wonder if maybe they are more personal to Willow, that they represent things about *her*. They all appear as female because they are all Willow, but they may represent the different things she draws strength from. The tree figure could be her magic. The blank figure with the math could be science and rationality (they are standing at opposite sides). The blue figure (apparently water, and not blue flame) and the werewolf-like figures may represent, for their parts, her two former lovers. The blue figure did call her 'dear'. And the abstract figure is what Willow thinks of as herself. That's all just throwing it out there.

With Dawn thinking Willow is like a mother to her, that's going to need more explanation. In Issue #3 they made it sound pretty clear that Willow has been largely out of contact with the gang in the BHC for as long as a year. When was this bond supposed to form? Unless Willow has been keeping in regular touch with Dawn specifically.

[ThePoet's<3]

When I first saw the panel I was like "Now why is Willow talking to a Wookie?" Ha ha ha. .

:rotf:

He does seem to resemble Chewy!! Now that would take the story in a place "far far away"!

The five figures in Willow's dream/trance are pretty odd. I've heard one reasonable theory (maybe here?) that they represent the chinese version of the basic elements. I don't know. I wonder if maybe they are more personal to Willow, that they represent things about *her*. They all appear as female because they are all Willow, but they may represent the different things she draws strength from. The tree figure could be her magic. The blank figure with the math could be science and rationality (they are standing at opposite sides). The blue figure (apparently water, and not blue flame) and the werewolf-like figures may represent, for their parts, her two former lovers. The blue figure did call her 'dear'. And the abstract figure is what Willow thinks of as herself. That's all just throwing it out there.

With Dawn thinking Willow is like a mother to her, that's going to need more explanation. In Issue #3 they made it sound pretty clear that Willow has been largely out of contact with the gang in the BHC for as long as a year. When was this bond supposed to form? Unless Willow has been keeping in regular touch with Dawn specifically.

The werewolf/wookie (:D) did remind me of OZ. So, then I tried to make out other people from Willow's life from the remaining characters. I wondered if one person was Tara? Does the one figure seem to be "split" to you? Just looking at the face/hair, one side of the face seems "hollow" and the hair is straighter.

I also took the Blue figure to be Amy's mother or Buffy's mother. Was she in a "hell" demension?

OY! This will be fodder for the brain to feed on until August!

Apparently Joss has some more 'plainin' to do regarding our missing years...

[KingofCretins]

I interpret all of them as aspects of Willow:

-- the magic in her (the tree figure)
-- the Oz in her (the werewolf)
-- the Tara in her (the water figure)
-- the *Willow* in her, her self concept (the abstract, two-toned woman)
-- the science in her (the math woman)

[Dorian's Kitten]

With Dawn thinking Willow is like a mother to her, that's going to need more explanation. In Issue #3 they made it sound pretty clear that Willow has been largely out of contact with the gang in the BHC for as long as a year. When was this bond supposed to form? Unless Willow has been keeping in regular touch with Dawn specifically.


I would think that the bond formed back when Buffy died so soon after Joyce did. Willow and Tara moved in and were taking care of Dawn. Even before Buffy died there were scenes where Dawn turned to Willow, she stays with them after her mom's funeral. The relationship obviously went through some tough spots during season six and seven, but I would think it reasonable to assume that once Willow was back (and non-darth) they were able to patch things up. Actually even at the end of season seven we see Dawn stay with Willow at the house and tell Buffy to leave.

[KingofCretins]

I was disappointed not to see Renee in this issue. Unless that was her in the 'tell Dawn to stop jumping' panel. I am really interested in seeing her dynamic with the other Slayers around. I don't know why, but I imagine that she and Alpha Team are probably not "close". I'm particularly curious what her relationship is with Buffy. We already know that Renee has some self-doubt based on her feeling like she was responsible for the BHC being breached.

More needs to be said about how awesome Xander is in Season 8. Aside from my Buffy/Xander hopes, I just love reading my favorite character finally getting a chance to shine. I hope after "The Chain" we get some more of the 'everyday' life in the BHC. More about training, more about... work shifts in the command center.

[bishopcruz]

Agreed Xander is the man again. Finally.

I am very curious as to how life works in the BHC for the gang and the Slayers. I'm also wondering what they do for fun, as it is a group of hormonal girls basically at a military acadamy. Do they go into town to blow of some steam or what? I'd love to see how the Slayers unwind.

[KingofCretins]

It's hard to speculate on the kind of social life they might have without having a better sense of exactly how remote the BHC is. I love scenes with just the new characters in them, though, like Satsu getting her peptalk. I want to see Renee interact with someone other than just Xander, though.

[vampmogs]

It's hard to speculate on the kind of social life they might have without having a better sense of exactly how remote the BHC is. I love scenes with just the new characters in them, though, like Satsu getting her peptalk. I want to see Renee interact with someone other than just Xander, though.

I am very interested to see Renee's relationship with Buffy's Alpha team. I am sort of picturing Renee as kind of an outcast amongst the slayers, not only Buffy's alpha team. We saw her interacting with another slayer during the graveyard shift, but even then there was no real signs of a strong bond between them. To me it was more of a case of the other slayer just being nosy and wanting to gossip about Renee's love life, they don't have to be particularly close for that to happen.

Renee was lying alone after being injured and it was only Xander who came up to her to see if she was alright, I'm kind of thinking she's a loveable outsider who I hope gets closer with the other slayers.

[tangent]

ok i just got 8.04 today and again it rocks.

Why get rid of ethan though. Ethan was always one of my fave little bads and i hate he had such a low key end. bah.

Apart from that: loved the mirror trick, loved the drawing of amy's mum's face and love how we get resolution 'cept, you know, without the resolution.

I'm with the wilow acting through buffy camp on the whole green lantern issue. The green light in willow's hand seems to be taking the form of the scythe in the first panel then buffy is blatantly continueing willows words and then the black eyes which, even if buffy has started to dabble in magic (after seven + years?), would mean a frightning amount of power is being used.

I'm also relieved to find that i'm not the only one baffled by the creatures in will's unconcious. These seem to consist of swanp thing, daughter of chewie, a water nymph, a picasso painting and a female formed of algebra. Scratching my head on that myself. Maye King's right but i think it could have been a whole lot clearer.

By the way anyone notice how the guard outside ethans room is lying in exactly the same position as the fallen ogre thing in amy's dreamspace (right above the xxx panel.)

[KingofCretins]

I'm not declaring that as a valid interpretation. I just was trying to come up with something other than the elements.

I did notice that, it's definitely intentional. I'm guessing that the prophetic element to Buffy's own dreams mingled with the clues to rescuing him that Ethan was planting.

[Nostalgia]

I really like the 5 elements theory... it really adds depth to her character. Especially with everything making perfect sense (especially the relationship ties.)


If Willow still has a part of Oz in her.. does that shock anyone? I have to say I am extremely pleasantly surprised.. This adds even more the the theory that Willow never was truely gay.. and that it was just one girl.

[KingofCretins]

I more meant the part of Oz as in, the part of her that went with Oz, the emotional Oz-ness she shared with him. But, I was just trying to come up with an interpretation other than the elements.

Welcome, Nostalgia.

[Nostalgia]

Good to see you KoC..


More truthful response:
I think it could possibly mean more than that though.. if this theory is correct. Even though Willow and Tara have been through so much... (obviously life and death), I still feel Willow will always have a part of Oz in her. The innocence and purity that Willow still shows (ironically).

Shipper response: I hope Oz comes back!! God Willow and Oz could still hit it off! In New Moon Rising it was clearly shown how hard it was for her to let go of him again. Even Willow slightly makes a statement to the idea that'll she'll always have a part of Oz in her.

Go Woz!

[vampmogs]

If Willow still has a part of Oz in her.. does that shock anyone? I have to say I am extremely pleasantly surprised.. This adds even more the the theory that Willow never was truely gay.. and that it was just one girl.

Willow isn't gay she is bisexual. In earlier seasons she clearly has sexual feelings for Xander, clearly had a crush (seemingly like every girl at Sunnydale High) on Owen Wilson, is sexually attracted to Oz and explains in 'Wild Things' that she has wrong lusty feelings for other guys sometimes whilst being with Oz. However, in later seasons Willow is sexually attracted to Tara, April the Robot, Kennedy and to Dawn before realising it was her dancing in the Bronze in the episode 'Him.' She appears to be attracted to both sexes.

Good to see you KoC..
More truthful response:
I think it could possibly mean more than that though.. if this theory is correct. Even though Willow and Tara have been through so much... (obviously life and death), I still feel Willow will always have a part of Oz in her. The innocence and purity that Willow still shows (ironically).

Oz may indeed always be a part of her, however, this doesn't mean she has to still be in love with Oz. Oz was a massive love of her life, it'd be very strange if still wasn't a part of her at all.

Shipper response: I hope Oz comes back!! God Willow and Oz could still hit it off! In New Moon Rising it was clearly shown how hard it was for her to let go of him again. Even Willow slightly makes a statement to the idea that'll she'll always have a part of Oz in her.

Go Woz!

Oz was planned to come back in s6 of Ats to become a regular but the show was cancelled. Since it is almost certain we will be having a Ats comic s6 mini series I think it may be more likely that Oz would appear in the Ats comics rather than Btvs s8, although it is possible.

[Nostalgia]

I really think putting Oz as a part of season six of "Angel" would make him completely useless. Come to think of it.. all that really will be left of the characters of "Angel" would be Angel, Spike, and Illyria (assuming that Gunn dies.. though I am very confused about the speculation that he was going to return as a vampire.. What was that about? Even how? Illyria told him he had about 10 minutes to live.)

I would love to see Willow thinking about Oz again. Just thinking...

[vampmogs]

I really think putting Oz as a part of season six of "Angel" would make him completely useless. Come to think of it.. all that really will be left of the characters of "Angel" would be Angel, Spike, and Illyria (assuming that Gunn dies.. though I am very confused about the speculation that he was going to return as a vampire.. What was that about? Even how? Illyria told him he had about 10 minutes to live.)

I would love to see Willow thinking about Oz again. Just thinking...

Oz was supposed to help Nina come to terms with being a werewolf and I assume would have gained more control over his own wolfy traits.

Gunn may indeed come back as a vampire in the season six comics ;) It is possible that in the battle a vampire could bite and sire him before his ten minutes were up.

[Nostalgia]

Yeah.. just another reason the whole "The vampire sucks you.. you suck them.. it's basically a whole big suckfest" (close enough) idea was really inconsistent. Of course anything's possible.. but realistically something like that would never happen.

[omri]

Ummm... About the actual issue. I think it was great!. I really like the way they are heading for. I would like to see some old charecters showing up (or resurrected). Over all, I really loved it.

[Ravynnia]

Warren finally has his true form, a monstrous outside to match the inside -- I just wish they would draw him a bit drippier -- and I can't wait to see what happens when Amy's magicskin fails & he departs the mortal coil in an even more disgusting fashion.

My guess on the contacts: these were the spirits that assisted her healing under the Coven's guidance between S6-7.

On the Buffy-Willow channeling: the triple bond with Buffy, beyond the friendship, comes through (a) the "Primeval" spell (b) the resurrection spell and (c) the scythe spell. Though Xander & Giles shared the first, and Xander & Anya the second, Willow is the main agent & shares all three with Buffy. The more rooted elemental goddessy power she has now is more subtle & defensive than the vengeful, punitive power she touched in the gypsy spell at the start of her magickal life.

What sort of traffic was Ethan Rayne involved in that he was the "only one" who could've helped Buffy? And is this just a bluff? a faked death? (I hope not: too cheesy. Still, introducing Ethan just to snuff him first thing? Doubftul.)

If Dawn doesn't have strength proportional to her size, wouldn't her mass rip through her skin or crush or skeleton or something? (pseudo-scientific Rav asks).

[vampmogs]

^ Apparently Joss has stated that Ethan will feature throughout s8, so I'm thinking either he'll somehow be able to connect with Buffy from the afterlife (although I'm not sure he's that powerful) or I'm betting on some flashbacks of Ethan held in captivity by the government

[Chosen1]

I absolutely LOVED this one. My favorite part was...

...when Willow was able channel her powers through Buffy in the end. That was just amazing. :hf2:

[KingofCretins]

You don't need to spoiler tag anything that happened in the issue's discussion thread, just FYI. Only on non-Season 8 threads.

Personally, I still don't buy that Willow was definitely the one doing that. I don't see how she'd have even known when and what Buffy needed. I think Buffy might have been doing that. Willow had been planning on giving Buffy spells to help her fight before.

[vampmogs]

Personally, I still don't buy that Willow was definitely the one doing that. I don't see how she'd have even known when and what Buffy needed. I think Buffy might have been doing that. Willow had been planning on giving Buffy spells to help her fight before.

Well I don't rule out anything to do with Willow and the abilities she now has, from what we've seen she can pretty much do anything amazing you can think of. I just don't buy into the idea that Buffy can now do this sort of thing, one because I don't like our characters becoming too powerful and secondly because I feel it doesn't jibe well with Buffy's character.

The whole thing seemed way to fan-ficcy for my liking and is possibly the only thing I have disliked of the whole season so far.

[Ravynnia]

Personally, I still don't buy that Willow was definitely the one doing that. I don't see how she'd have even known when and what Buffy needed.
The flow of green energy starts from out-of-body Willow & Buffy completes Willow's sentence. Willow herself has accessed whatever space that is guarded by the whatever-they-are's, and generates the healing & also is linked to Buffy.

[KingofCretins]

Great Joss interview on Whedonesque about a charity he works with, that also has some Season 8 stuff.

It appears from the end of issue #4 that Buffy has access to some of Willow's magical abilities? How does it work? Is Buffy casting spells? Or is Willow actually casting spells through Buffy?

In that instance the idea was simply that Willow had given Buffy a little hit so that in case something did happen, because they knew they were up against Amy, she gave her a little protective mojo. It's not something I plan to repeat that often because it could get too convenient and that's sort of what separates the two of them. However, as we did in episode 21 of season four, making that connection between them really highlights the strength of their friendship, so I like doing that.

Joss interview (http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=10985)

I'm glad he's not planning on using that a lot, though.

[vampmogs]

Thanks for finding that Dan! It had a lot of people talking around the net and it is good we have had Joss actually explain it :D

Although what exactly does he mean by a little 'hit'? Does he mean he gave Buffy a little taste of her power? I'm not sure what he means by this?

I am also very glad that he won't be using this often, I didn't really care for it and would rather Buffy deal with things like she always has; with brute force ;)

[Sosa lola]

Hi guys, first post here :)

Here are two reviews on #4:

http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/16910.html

http://aycheb.livejournal.com/52334.html

I have to say in the first arc I completely enjoyed Buffy, Xander, Leah, Satsu, Rowena, Renee and Ethan the most. I'm started to grow fond of Giant!Dawn. But I'm disappointed with all the retcons around Willow's character.

[Ravynnia]

Although what exactly does he mean by a little 'hit'? Does he mean he gave Buffy a little taste of her power? I'm not sure what he means by this?


Something like what the Coven did for Giles, but a much smaller scale. But it's out of Joss', uhm, cubbyhole, because there's nothing in any of the three previous issues, no little inexplicable note or shot that suggests there was an aside where Buffy & Willow were preparing for a contingency like that.

Joss is not omniscient -- mind-boggling!:err:

[Jenni Lou]

I think the biggest piece of information we got is that Satsu lets people borrow her lipgloss. She has actually dropped to #3 on my list of suspects. First is still Xander. I could see him either A) goofing around with the lipgloss or B) it just being a complete red herring. Second is Rowena. She would have been in fine position to borrow the lipgloss, and she seemed completely shredded that Buffy didn't pick her. Third is Satsu.

I think I will be upset if it is anyone other than Xander just because it seems the most logical to me.

And also I think having another Slayer being the kisser is lame. *yawn*

I am enjoying the series thus far though. :) I have a few reservations but it's nothing that kills it for me. I like that now the major arc for the season has been established. Now......if we could just de-giant Dawn.... :p

[bishopcruz]

Oh I'm pretty sure that they will be keeping Dawn a giant for her time in Tokyo for the arc after Faith. I mean Giant Dawn stomping through the streets of Japan would be LEGENDARY!

If not, well, wasted opportunity much?

And yes, anyone other than Xander being the kisser would be lame. (I just have to keep throwing that out to the universe.)

[Jenni Lou]

Oh I'm pretty sure that they will be keeping Dawn a giant for her time in Tokyo for the arc after Faith. I mean Giant Dawn stomping through the streets of Japan would be LEGENDARY!

If not, well, wasted opportunity much?

And yes, anyone other than Xander being the kisser would be lame. (I just have to keep throwing that out to the universe.)

Dawn-zilla! I love it. :lol:

And yes. I agree also again with Xander the kisser. Just to throw that out there some more. :D

[vampmogs]

Something like what the Coven did for Giles, but a much smaller scale. But it's out of Joss', uhm, cubbyhole, because there's nothing in any of the three previous issues, no little inexplicable note or shot that suggests there was an aside where Buffy & Willow were preparing for a contingency like that.

Joss is not omniscient -- mind-boggling!:err:

Well we aren't clear on heaps of the details. Perhaps Willow could do this because she is connected to Buffy after the spell with the slayers scythe? In one panel it appears like the shape of the scythe is starting to form in Willow's hand before we cut to Buffy so perhaps that is the link? I'll basically try and fanwank it so it isn't as you say.. just coming out of Joss' cubbyhole :roll:

[Ravynnia]

Oh, and the cinammon-bun reference -- meant to be a Princess Leia pointer? A Star Wars note would land us in Xander territory, which is probably too obvious.