Which apocalypse was greater, Jasmine or The First?

[sherrilina]

Am I alone in thinking that the ATS season 4 apocalypse totally pwns the BTVS season 7 one, and that The First's apocalypse pales in comparison to Jasmine's? I mean, with Jasmine you've got rain of fire, the sun going out, mass mind control....whereas nothing of that scale ever happens in season 7 Buffy!

But which apocalypse do you think was greater, or more severe and well, apocalyptic! ;)

[Ojuice5001]

Well, I'm sure the First's apocalypse would have been just as destructive if Buffy hadn't stopped it. Essentially, Jasmine was just great at planning to stay one step ahead of Angel and the others.

Even after the influence of Buffy, the First's apocalypse still resulted in the town of Sunnydale being destroyed. Sure, that was from Buffy's counterattack rather than the direct action of the First, but hey, the First Evil is all about making good people do bad things. I'd count that as a part of the First's apocalypse.

And I tend to think that the Beast's apocalypse is really a different apocalypse from that of Jasmine. Jasmine wouldn't have wanted to have the Beast in her world, destroying everything and blotting out the sun. Surely the Beast getting killed was all part of her plan, and she's glad she never had to deal with it after she entered the world in her non-Cordelia form.

[Jenni Lou]

Am I alone in thinking that the ATS season 4 apocalypse totally pwns the BTVS season 7 one, and that The First's apocalypse pales in comparison to Jasmine's? I mean, with Jasmine you've got rain of fire, the sun going out, mass mind control....whereas nothing of that scale ever happens in season 7 Buffy!

I'm with you. The massive mind control is wicked. :p

And I have to say, the First is lame because it relies on others to do its bidding. I mean, it's not even corporeal. At least Jasmine could reach out and suck out somebody! Whoah, that's sounded dirty. :boff:

[Vampire in Rug]

I'm undecided. If Jasmine had gotten her way, mankind would more or less be pretty happy, going about our lives spreading the gospel of Jasmine. No wars, no famine. Of course, humans would lack free will, but in thier state of bliss they wouldn't really care.

On the other hand, the First would have had the ubervamps spread outwards, siring and killing people. The world would have become a hellhole, the survivors turning against each other, always scared, always running. And who knows what the First could have done when it became corporeal.


I wonder how Jasmine would have dealt with the Beast. The rain of fire and blotting out the sun served as a nice distraction for Jasmine's true plan, but I wonder what Jasmine would have done when she was "born" from Cordy. Was the Beast a true worshiper of Jasmine or merely a pawn? I mean, thier goals seemed kinda different. The Beast seemed "true evil", wheras Jasmine was more "perverted good".

[Kold]

I wonder how Jasmine would have dealt with the Beast. The rain of fire and blotting out the sun served as a nice distraction for Jasmine's true plan, but I wonder what Jasmine would have done when she was "born" from Cordy. Was the Beast a true worshiper of Jasmine or merely a pawn? I mean, thier goals seemed kinda different. The Beast seemed "true evil", wheras Jasmine was more "perverted good".
You don't think Jasmine could have dealt with the Beast? Remember how she was only vulnerable to her earthly parents? I think it was just good planning to get rid of it beforehand, but she could have dealt with it.

I think that the Buffy apocalypse was actually an "apocalypse" apocalypse. That's what Buffy, the show, was about. Jasmine in Angel, on the other hand, was given the twist that these things always got on Angel. It was more of a moral horror, an apocalypse of the mind and soul.

Jasmine would have worn out the world until there was nothing left... but the First's apocalypse, although not quite as engaging or interesting as Jasmine's, was probably better in terms of bang.

[NileQT87]

the beast was a lackey of jasmine doing its bidding! jasmine wouldn't have wanted to get rid of it! jasmine wasn't exactly happy when angelus decided to not play the game (in other words, angelus acted on his freedom of choice).

and yeah, jasmine's world domination scheme through brainwashing actually hits historically close to evils that really have been done by humanity (a.k.a. communism... it had disastrous results, of course). taking people's freedom of choice away is a classic in the play for power. a lot of evil has been done under the cover of "world peace" (it's the basis of marxist philosophy)--the problem is is that every power hungry group has their own definition of world peace (world peace is when everybody believes the same as you do--freedom of choice is the first thing you have to get rid of).

the first... yeah, sunnydale got cratered, but it really wasn't the most well-planned domination scheme. ok, so a bunch of turok-han get released... they overrun the world... it's basically just more demons added to the population.

jasmine had the power to ENSLAVE mankind and have THEM be her army of world peace. the first was just using a lot of 'crush: good' brainless demons to run amuck. the first's greatest asset was its power of manipulation through picking apart people's weaknesses and memories. jasmine was even better at manipulation (see: "soul, soul, who's got your soul?"). the first's most successful manipulations were angel and spike--and neither completed any of what the first wanted from them. jasmine only failed because of an accident with a bloody shirt and connor giving up on having to choose between what he saw as picking between two evils. with jasmine we actually saw some of the final plan take place. the first didn't get that far.

and jasmine's happy slaves happen to be some of the most disturbing twilight zone imagery in the entire jossverse. just like some of the creepiest villains are the ones who do the creepy smiles, the absurdly happy evil is often far more scarier than the sad/horror evil.

[skinless]

The First Apocalyspe was Far greater than Jasmine's But then again Im Biased Becuz I dont like Season 4 of Angel

[sherrilina]

The First Apocalyspe was Far greater than Jasmine's But then again Im Biased Becuz I dont like Season 4 of Angel
I don't know though--I mean, maybe I'm thinking more in terms of the earlier stages of the Jasmine apocalypse, but it just seemed a lot mroe impressive than the Buffy one--I mean, rain of fire, wholesale slaughter in WH, the sun going out....all seems a lot more apocalyptic and crazy than just people feeling an "evil" presence in Sunnydale and leaving, and a few ubervamps....they don't call 4.07 "Apocalypse Nowish" for nothing, lol! ;)

[Kold]

the beast was a lackey of jasmine doing its bidding! jasmine wouldn't have wanted to get rid of it! jasmine wasn't exactly happy when angelus decided to not play the game (in other words, angelus acted on his freedom of choice).

and yeah, jasmine's world domination scheme through brainwashing actually hits historically close to evils that really have been done by humanity (a.k.a. communism... it had disastrous results, of course). taking people's freedom of choice away is a classic in the play for power. a lot of evil has been done under the cover of "world peace" (it's the basis of marxist philosophy)--the problem is is that every power hungry group has their own definition of world peace (world peace is when everybody believes the same as you do--freedom of choice is the first thing you have to get rid of).

the first... yeah, sunnydale got cratered, but it really wasn't the most well-planned domination scheme. ok, so a bunch of turok-han get released... they overrun the world... it's basically just more demons added to the population.

jasmine had the power to ENSLAVE mankind and have THEM be her army of world peace. the first was just using a lot of 'crush: good' brainless demons to run amuck. the first's greatest asset was its power of manipulation through picking apart people's weaknesses and memories. jasmine was even better at manipulation (see: "soul, soul, who's got your soul?"). the first's most successful manipulations were angel and spike--and neither completed any of what the first wanted from them. jasmine only failed because of an accident with a bloody shirt and connor giving up on having to choose between what he saw as picking between two evils. with jasmine we actually saw some of the final plan take place. the first didn't get that far.

and jasmine's happy slaves happen to be some of the most disturbing twilight zone imagery in the entire jossverse. just like some of the creepiest villains are the ones who do the creepy smiles, the absurdly happy evil is often far more scarier than the sad/horror evil.
All that is very true, but not the point at all.
What Jasmine did was not an "apocalypse": at least, not an immediate one. If you want a clearly definable apocalypse by the good old terms, the people screaming and being overrun, and well aware that the world would be down the drain in a very short span of time, the First was doing a little better than Jasmine.

Jasmine was not after an apocalypse. Sure it would have resulted in her working the human race to extinction, but she herself was too conceited and wound up in the love that was given to her that she didn't see an apocalypse in what she caused. The First was doing an actual, real apocalypse, even if the methods were less effective. :)

[Nostalgia]

Yes, you are.

The First was genius.. and it the season was done a bit better.. it could have been the best season of BtVS

[sherrilina]

Yes, you are.

The First was genius.. and it the season was done a bit better.. it could have been the best season of BtVS
Lol, YOU are mostly alone in that last sentiment! ;) :p

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one though--b/c I think Jasmine is more genius than The First, both as a concept and in terms of outsmarting the Scooby-type gang! ;) And I would definitely rank season 4 ATS over season 7 BTVS....

[cheryl4ba]

If not for the wonder of Chosen, I would agree that Jasmine's arc was way better on ATS. Can't do that unless I take Chosen out of the equasion. Chosen was just brilliant.

[kana]

I think the concept of Jasmine is interesting because I find her more morally ambiguous than evil as such. Like I said, if we believe Jasmine then there are only different concepts of 'good'. She believed that happiness could only exist en masse if free will is taken away. Rightly or wrongly if she doesn't have faith in mankind enough for them not kill, rape and generally hurt each other, free will removal is the only solution.

The difference between Jasmine's world order and other apocalypses (like say Acathla's hell on earth or The Master's regime) is that people would in theory suffer less than they are now. If we take an emotional stance, then Angel's choosing pain because Free Will self defined happiness is more important to him than the warm fuzzies.

Jasmine throws up the question of the Other PTBs as others have argued, that they are too stand offish. If nothing else, Angel has at least learnt about the balance and how important free will is to him as a champion. Thematically I liked it because conceptually it rings true to life. What is good and what is evil. Is someone elses concept of good worse than our own. How can we objectively prove it outside our own principles and even if we can agree as a human race, do we necessarily know what is best for us?

[Nostalgia]

Chosen isn't even one of the top episodes of season seven..

Dead Girls, Storyteller, Selfless, and of course Conversations With Dead People are among the episodes that season four never had in comparison.

[sherrilina]

Chosen isn't even one of the top episodes of season seven..

Dead Girls, Storyteller, Selfless, and of course Conversations With Dead People are among the episodes that season four never had in comparison.
Are you kidding? Try Calvary, Salvage, Release, Orpheus, and The Magic Bullet for starters--not to mention earlier ones like Apocalypse Nowish....

And you meant Dirty Girls, I think....

[BlasterBoy]

The First actually had a plan? :lol: The First was dumb and thought he was the big scary dude. When, really, he got minions to do work cause he can't touch anything :rolleyes: He is so menacing, with his taunts! I'm shaking in my boots and I'm afraid he might hurt me. Oh wait, he can't.

Jasmine, on the other hand, was genius. Blotting out the sun, getting pregnant in one of the gangs, having this spell to keep people loving her. The Beast, everything! It was perfect. She was incredibly smart. Some people might not like the Jasmine arc, but that still does not defeat the fact that she was genius.

About S7 vs. S4: don't get me started :p Nostalgia, I agree with you about Chosen. So many plot holes, too many too stand. But, I think episodes like Conversations With Dead People and Selfless are not apocalyptic, but amazing. Calvary, Salvage, Habeas Corpses, etc. Those are apocalyptic. :D

[ThePoet's<3]

I voted for the The First - only because I HATED Season 4 of Angel with Jasmine. I was so happy to see it over and done with.

[Chosen1]

I'm going to have to go with The First as a greater threat. Jasmine was bad, but The First was the original evil and I think that would scare me more, haha.

[major_buffy_fan]

Could someone please remind me who jasmine is in season 4 of angel is she the women who has posssessed cordilia and brings about the big beast demon guy

[Nina]

Yes, that is her. The Black lady who wanted to help people, and failed.

I don't know which one was bigger, I think the first with his übervamps. Jasmine wasn't direct a big danger, the first and his army were.

The First was lame and the writing around him was bad. Het was also just evil. Jasmine was a grey character, she wasn't evil ... but she did evil things. Taking away freedom is wrong, but there is no wrong in trying to save humanity.

[NileQT87]

jasmine was more directly a danger than the first was.

here's the end result:

jasmine - she/it enslaves the entire world to be her/its army, nobody in the world has freedom of choice/will; it is impossible to fight her/it, because everyone is her minion.
the first - its übervamps overrun sunnydale and join the rest of the demon population in southern california (much of it worse, imo, than them); can be fought.

jasmine was waaaaay more dangerous, on a much larger scale. jasmine was one step from going worldwide as it was--by television. the first didn't even get much further than inside the hellmouth.

who caused more deaths? jasmine. who could control more? jasmine.

see, the difference is that while the first could overrun the world with things out of the hellmouth, jasmine could actually just enslave the people--making the people work for it rather than having slightly more demon violence than it already has (not much of a change really for the jossverse). jasmine was a doer and the first was a taunter.

[Nostalgia]

Nile you don't understand though.. Though Jasmine had a more on screen effect.. the world would have run by ubervamps if the First had succeeded. He also would have become corporeal.. and you saw what it looks like. The world would physically be in an apocalypse.. while Jasmine was changing the world into something it shouldn't be.. which I don't consider an apocalypse. The First had plans that were inconceivable to Jasmine. If he wasn't incorporeal, I'm sure things would have been a lot worse. Buffy was lucky to have had Spike, because if he didn't do what he had did, the world would be dissipating and being run by Bringers and ubervamps.

[NileQT87]

yes, but with the first, humanity could still fight those übervamps and bringers! with jasmine, NOTHING would be in the way of fighting jasmine except connor. there would be no human race standing in the way of jasmine. there would be the entire human race standing against the first.

i'd rather have the vampire population added to (is that even all that bad?) than have nobody who can fight back.

[KingofCretins]

I think Nile's got the better point here -- even in a world covered in evil darkness, humanity is still humanity and knows what it has to fight for. Under Jasmine's sickening vision, humanity was stripped of the very core of it's nature -- individualism. She was going to snuff out the ability for humanity to even understand that they were being consumed, literally and figuratively.

[Lex]

I was inclined to vote for Jasmine. Why?

Ok here aremy reasons:

1. It wasn't like any type of apocalypse - big bangs, shiny lights, earthquakes etc. It was a fallen angel spreading love to the earth and it was almost like a metaphor for the world itself. How good everything can seem on the surface but underneath everything is evil, twisted and sacrifices have to be made for others to survive.

2. Although it was an apocalypse, it didn't seem like one, because it was such a different way of destroying the world that I think wasn't or hadn't been touched on in Angel before.

3. Jasmine didn't see it as an apocalypse...she saw it as a cleansing, sacrifice for a new Utopian world!

4. It affected more people. The apocalypse in Sunnydale just affected the town, it didn't do much damage elsewhere, it just made the town people go crazy nuts!

I bet these points have been raised before but I think they are worth mentioning again. It's easy to stick to the expecting status quo of apocalypses, but Jasmine's was that bit more twisted, sick and personal.

[Kold]

Haha I stand corrected --


Apocalypse: discovery; revelation; disclosure. ... assuming to make revelation of the ultimate divine purpose.
From the general definition of an apocalypse from Buffy it is the immediate destruction of the world.

However, in biblical terms, and in the technical definition, what can really be said against the idea that Jasmine's actions were an "apocalypse"? Despite the fact that her actions were neither intended specifically as the destruction of the world, or that it would be immediate -- the apocalypse doesn't even necessarily mean the end of mankind. And if Jasmine had succeeded, her coming would have been the "revelation of the ultimate divine purpose" -- who could naysay her?

While the First's actions were ultimately still an apocalypse based on these terms, Jasmine's apocalypse was just so beautifully fitting to a true definition.

[vampmogs]

Yeah I agree with those who state Jasmine's was greater than the Firsts and it all has to do with our free will, and being able to register that they do indeed have to fight and not just be mindless zombies in many respects. Those a world overrun with ubervamps would have been horrible, as humans we would know we have to fight, under Jasmine's control we don't have that choice. As far as humans are concerned, they couldn't even comprehend something was wrong.

[Lily]

Yes, that is her. The Black lady who wanted to help people, and failed.

I don't know which one was bigger, I think the first with his übervamps. Jasmine wasn't direct a big danger, the first and his army were.

The First was lame and the writing around him was bad. Het was also just evil. Jasmine was a grey character, she wasn't evil ... but she did evil things. Taking away freedom is wrong, but there is no wrong in trying to save humanity.

Just out of curiousity - why? I mean if everyone is happy. There is no famine, no disease, no war. Just a permanent state of pure peace and happiness for everyone in the world until the day they die (or get eaten - or promoted) what would be the purpose of freedom?

I thought the First was more impressive by far because throughout Jasmines reign I kept thinking 'so what' what exactly would have been the horrible consequence if they hadn't defeated her. World peace? Wolfram and Hart employees sitting in a circle singing Kum Ba Yah? While with the First the world would have gone back to the original reality with more force. Humans would have lost the upper hand and the 'evil' forces would have torn the world apart one corpse at a time.

[vampmogs]

Just out of curiousity - why? I mean if everyone is happy. There is no famine, no disease, no war. Just a permanent state of pure peace and happiness for everyone in the world until the day they die (or get eaten - or promoted) what would be the purpose of freedom?

I thought the First was more impressive by far because throughout Jasmines reign I kept thinking 'so what' what exactly would have been the horrible consequence if they hadn't defeated her. World peace? Wolfram and Hart employees sitting in a circle singing Kum Ba Yah? While with the First the world would have gone back to the original reality with more force. Humans would have lost the upper hand and the 'evil' forces would have torn the world apart one corpse at a time.

Because free will is one of our most valued parts of being human. That ability to choose, no one has the right to take that away from us. It is mind rape, it is just as bad as Willow taking away Tara's memory so she can manipulate her how she sees fit. Jasmine didn't have the right to take our free will away. Humans would have been her slaves, and that isn't right.

[kana]

I see what Lily means. There are two main issues people are getting confused with: effectiveness of the plan and the nastiness of it. Jasmine may well have been a power hungry egotisitical bitch, however if she actually trying to help then obviously she doesn't have faith that mankind can save themselves.

Angel is at least honest to admit that he doesn't know if mankind is strong enough, and even questions it in Season 5 but clearly free will is something important to him and he is willing to fight for it.

In both Angel and Jasmine scenarios there are negative and positive sides...
and I've got to go. more later.

[Lily]

Because free will is one of our most valued parts of being human. That ability to choose, no one has the right to take that away from us. It is mind rape, it is just as bad as Willow taking away Tara's memory so she can manipulate her how she sees fit. Jasmine didn't have the right to take our free will away. Humans would have been her slaves, and that isn't right.

Except Willows spell only benefitted Willow since Tara had no problem with fighting and considered it normal - all take no give.

The thing is if you were given a choice to either spend your entire life in perfect happiness, save billions of people from horrible deaths and abuse. Never have to see a starving child swollen with hunger, or a woman permanently disfigured because her boyfriend decided to bash her head in with a hammer; or what we live now - would you really choose this world?

With freedom and choice there always has to be a spectrum by which choices are made. You choose where on the spectrum your morality metre falls. So one person can therefore choose to kill while the other can choose to save. Without the spectrum as a whole there is no choice. Because of this choice and freedom can be considered responsible for both the crimes and triumphs of society.

But what if there were only triumphs. Yes your freedom is gone but rather than something you've lost it's something you've shed. There is no longer any use for it because it becomes a part of your nature to simply help and nurture those around you. We easily consider freedom and choice to define us as humans because there is simply a need. Because our society requires it to function. But if the society is able to function better without it and is happy to be without it then what have we lost?

It's not mind rape, rather filtering. In Jasmines reality - humanity wouldn't die, it would just show the best of its nature. Complete worldwide unity. Given free will and choice we would be unable to make this happen ourselves because everyone has a different moral point and there will always be vampires. So what value would free will have if Jasmine had suceeded?

I guess the essence of what I'm really asking in all my rambling is in what way does freedom benefit us?

[Nina]

It's not mind rape, rather filtering. In Jasmines reality - humanity wouldn't die, it would just show the best of its nature.
Well, Jasmine eats everyday 20 innocent people. I know that in the 'normal' world more people die. But still, people who can't think for themselfs are used for food.


I guess the essence of what I'm really asking in all my rambling is in what way does freedom benefit us?

That question was the big question in season 4 I guess. What is right? The world with happy not-thinking slaves or the world with an own choice but not that happy.

I think the biggest difference is, everything what happens to you ... is your own work. If you're in trouble, it your own fault. If you do something good, it's all you're own work. People who can make choices, can live their life like they want to live their life. Choice is making you one of a kind, if everybody thinks the same, nobody matters anymore because the person next door, has the same opinion and does the same things. The freedom to choose makes you unique. And life isn't always easy, but every life is different because of the choices which are made by the people self.

[KingofCretins]

Honestly, I'm alarmed by any defense of Jasmine's vision. She is the paternalist ideal, the nanny state made into physical and psychological reality. She's the one who Knows Better. She's what Ben Franklin might have imagined when he said that those trading "the Essential Liberty" for "Temporary Safety" lose both and deserve neither.

[NileQT87]

jasmine is a summation of marxism, communism and socialism reaching its ultimate form. and yes, it is alarming to see people thinking jasmine's vision is a good option next to freedom of choice. choice is everything. all we are is how we are different from each other--unique. marxist communist socialist thought is the antithesis of democratic republic ideals.

the reality is that jasmine is actually one of the most painfully close characters to modern politics. jasmine is a lot like joseph stalin, mao zedong, ho chi minh, pol pot, fidel castro (and his even worse buddy, che guevara), hugo chavez, v.i. lenin, etc... these were/are mass-murdering, power-hungry psychopaths that promised equality for the poor, but gave them death and even more poverty--and no ability to rise above the bottom--it basically put everybody but the dictator at the bottom of poverty. you end up with guys like stalin who was so paranoid of his own men that he was hunting down his own guys like trotsky down in mexico.

jasmine's jasmaniacs are reminicent of the soviet secret police... or even the nazi s.s. you couldn't go against the leader or you get killed. what jasmine had was brainwashed people hunting down and killing anybody who dared to go against her or even think on their own. this is the same stuff hitler and stalin did--and millions died in the process of BOTH. fact: communism killed more people than facism (and both were rotten). mao zedong is in the running for being the #1 mass-murderer ever (70 million), followed probably by stalin (50 million). hitler is way down at 11 million by comparison.

interestingly, pol pot's khmer rouge was specifically mentioned by holland manners in "reprise". another example of communist mass-murder.

the thing about what this has to do with jasmine, is it spells out exactly why communism can't work: freedom of choice is gone. people can't really be happy as mindless meatbags who go around being the eyes of a dictator. real life blood has been shed over the same thing that jasmine attempted in the show. and scarily... some people still think it wouldn't be a bad exchange for basic freedoms to have this marxist "world peace" (that propaganda has always been a lie told by communist dictators and philosophers). in the end, "world peace" is when everyone believes the same as everyone else. in fact, that's something that marx, himself, said.

Marx: "The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism."

knock of the last two words and you have any power-hungry dictator's definition of peace. dictators kill to get rid of opposition.

to sum up season 4:

Burke: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

it's probably the most political and philosophic season. ironically, tim minear wrote both "reprise" and was show-runner for season 4 (he's apparently as conservative as joss is liberal). "reprise" was the episode that really introduced the "freedom of choice" aspect of angel's championing of humanity.

[kana]

The issue though is two fold. Part of the problem is a) the practical application of such ideologies and the fact the a lot of people would ultimately reject it. Jasmine at least could have fixed that, the only issue we have left is the moral issues. The issue goes beyond the polictical and into realm of the philisophical.

Angel believes what he believe based upon his set of principles, Jasmine argued as Lily is arguing, why is this so important that he would want to take away peace from the world?

If Angel is confronted with a Higher Power, then he has to determine his own path or not, behold the irony but it's his choice. Lily is merely questioning (although I don't want to put words in her mouth) whether such absolutes, exist. If we take that away all we have are two different points of view of how to make the world better.

With freedom and choice there always has to be a spectrum by which choices are made. You choose where on the spectrum your morality metre falls. So one person can therefore choose to kill while the other can choose to save. Without the spectrum as a whole there is no choice. Because of this choice and freedom can be considered responsible for both the crimes and triumphs of society.

You see this is really the long and short of it, in a way. This is what Jasmine argues. There invariably will be ills human will suffer as a result. Jasmine argues this from her consequentialist, Utilitarian stand point. She thinks it's a fair trade. As Lilah said, sure we'd be slaves, but where the slaves are full of giggly happy joy, ugh, what a nightmare.

But what if there were only triumphs. Yes your freedom is gone but rather than something you've lost it's something you've shed. There is no longer any use for it because it becomes a part of your nature to simply help and nurture those around you. We easily consider freedom and choice to define us as humans because there is simply a need. Because our society requires it to function. But if the society is able to function better without it and is happy to be without it then what have we lost?

This ties in a little with Jasmine's relativist argument. I agree with this in part. For a moral absolutes would we not need a moral authority anyway? If not what do we have left? Human's varying concepts of Good. What I liked is that Angel places faith in his own convictionsand was willing to follow that, that I can relate to.

Jasmine may be the ultimately Nanny state but she believes this is what needs to be done "Look how far free will has gotten you"

Angel argues that we wont be responsible for any good that we do either "Our fate has to be our own or we're nothing". Jasmine disagrees. She thinks, we'll always have rape, torture, violence, hatred and that is the world Angel is choosing. Above all else, even though Angel isn't sure, he's putting his faith in himself and mankind, that people can make the world better by themselves (which is a development for him as he often argued as others did that the PTBs should do more), it's not the world Jasmine wanted, but at least we can be responsible for our own happiness.

[Nostalgia]

Despite the ties and relations to a communist concept, Jasmine's idea was still less dangerous than the one made by the First. Let's compare here:

From what I remember, Jasmine had made a society that completely wiped any freedom speech, choice, or decision once so ever. Also, she was eating people so that she could balance the scales, but her argument was that it's a lesser amount of people dying, to save the world from agony and pain.. she wanted to create the perfect utopia... where the world was captured by a state of bliss. This concept is without a doubt conceivably wrong, but that's not the argument here. Despite whether or not people are losing their state of independence, despite whether or not people are losing their sense of opportunity, it all comes down to the casualties. While Jasmine was often killing for the sake of her own continuation, The First's idea was a plan to physically END the world. In order to make this plain and simple.. whether one is more philosophically or politically immoral, can we really turn our heads to the one that is deciding to run the Earth by thousands of superior vampires (ones that even potential slayers could not fight.. so how are casual people going to fight them??).. Not only this... but the First promised that as the deaths grew and grew more.. that the scales would tip and it would become corporeal again. This thing is a huge disastrous demon thing.. and it's the center of all evil. I kind of feel like the reason people are choosing Jasmine's apocalypse because it seems fitting and more relative to our times.. but it boils to the world ending.. and us not being able to defend ourselves from death.. while Jasmine's case is us not being able to defend ourselves from collectivism.. and being deprived of our decisions. Also, while Jasmine's concept was sitting at a constant level (there was more to be done.. that was exactly how she wanted it), The First was on its way to wiping out both slayers, and probably 1/4 of all potential slayers, as well as a bunch of great fighters. If succeeded, there would be absolutely no one to protect people from the Ubervamps and Bringers. The only intervention would be the army, and I don't think they'd have enough capability to stop such a thing... considering guns don't kill them. The world would be in a state of shock and confusion, and more people would be dying every day. To me, this is much more dangerous and a bigger potential threat to us compared to Jasmine. Whether it's more interesting is up to you.. but to me, I'd rather live under communism than live on a dying world.

[kana]

Well the issue is that Jasmine could at least present a case of justification for her actions. Whether they can be excused is debatable but most would agree with Angel that the price is too high. Also Jasmine was questioning which is more evil, suffering or robbing people of free will. The First Evil presumably would bring about the end of the world, whereby people would suffer. If we believe Jasmine (and I'm not saying we have to) she was trying help people but she had a different view of how to make things right then Angel.

I'd assume that the FE didn't care about making anything right for mankind. Jasmine would not perhaps advocate what FE was doing because it would lead to human suffering. Again making the assumption that Jasmine believe she making things right for us, then she at least had good intentions, which makes Jasmine more morally ambiguous than anything else. Angel originally assumed that she simply wanted power but it possible that simply believed that mankind could save themselves from the pain we in effect have created ourselves.

From the subjective point of view, I value my free will from personal perspective and would be happy to keep my pain in exchange for my identity and ideals, however, from the inside of her influence, I'd be happier. It really depends on you values and principles. Most of us would say "I don't want to suffer" but it's more arguable what price we'd pay for ending it. Jasmine argues more than once that absolute good doesn't exist, only different concepts or indeed human concepts of good. I don't agree with Jasmine's world order but I do think that it's a argument of beliefs and concepts. Angel believes that freedom is worth pain, Jasmine cannot understand why this concept is so important if it's only a point of view and not an absolute. Her argument is that if you take moral absolutes, you simply have a world of suffering or a world without suffering, however Jasmine takes away the choice to make the initial decision. If we want pain, give us pain.

[Lily]

I was going to reply with a big long post because I have a tendancy to write as I think - which can be a little insane so I thought I'd just write this instead:

Jasmine is not human so not Hitler. No discrimination, brutalisation, malice or greed. Also kills only 20 people. Barely a dint in the population. Plus they died happy which can hardly be claimed by the people mentioned.

Communism no work cause is hypocritically flawed - giving someone incapable permission to run life

I can trace our current slavery to the government back to us and then to a schitzophrenic social entity spawn of many voices spoken at once and those omitted by the population.

Jasmine is just a working form of a control already in place.

Even the positive results of choice don't belong to us. They belong to people around us. The promotion you got at work - you may have worked hard to get, but it was your boss who chose to give it to you. His free will - not yours. Your new house: adapted from selections given to you, money a bank chose to lend you; builders who chose to build it; a country that chose to sell the land. Nobody has a say in how their life is run. Just a way to filter an option. Even your mind isn't your own since it's adapted by other minds and sights around you. It's secondary. Unless you're insane. Even then I'm not sure.

It's easy to say pain over loss of freedom. But it's not one persons pain. It's millions, billions. And it's not a bad tax return. It's murder, torture, rape, abuse - pedophelia, cannibalism, racism, war, starvation. Real things. Not just words. As I'm writing this - it's happening. I can only imagine what my emotions would be, what I would become if any of these happened to my younger sister. And Jasmine could stop it.

[Kiera]

Even though The First seemed to be a bit more... invincible, Jasmine used not power or evil, (well, directly anyway) but love. Isn't that the emotion that's supposed to be one of the most powerful things on the planet? People die/kill for and crave love. I would think it would be more of a threat because it's almost indirect in such a way that you know it's evil, but it's masking its true self, much like Jasmine was.

[vampmogs]

Jasmine is not human so not Hitler. No discrimination, brutalisation, malice or greed. Also kills only 20 people. Barely a dint in the population. Plus they died happy which can hardly be claimed by the people mentioned.

No discrimination, brutalisation or greed?

When anyone opposed Jasmine she sent people to kill them, she literally took over the bodies of her followers in an attempt to hurt anyone that opposed her. This isn't only discriminating against anyone who has a different viewpoint to her but brutalisation as well because basically she was lethal in the force she was using.

And greed? You did catch her little slip in "... but a temple would be nice" didn't you? Basically she was going to make some of her slaves build her a temple. Jasmine is no saint here. You don’t think the fact everyone worshiped her didn’t go to her head? Or that she didn’t have the ego of a PTB? She was basically a god, take a look at Glory and Illyria and there egos.

It was her way or the highway basically. When someone opposes her she orders their capture or death, she burns down people’s livelihood to keep others under her thumb. When Angel broke her spell he still offers for her to help them make a difference but it didn’t go her way so she turns on him and violently attacks him.