Anti-CANGEL Club

[THE BLUE]

Did Cangel seemed forced to you, was it too much have "deja-vu" fact in it, should they have stayed friends, did you see them as a brother and a sister? This is the place for you. And only for you. No Cangels are allowed. In order to hinder any uneasiness.

[galathea]

Hey there! Sorry, but you can't exclude anybody from a discussion thread here on BuffyForums. Anybody is allowed to voice his/her opinion in any thread as long as it is expressed politely and and in a sensible fashion. If Cangels want to debate the development of Angels and Cordelias relationship with people who have arguments on why they shouldn't be together in this thread, it is just as open to them as Cangel threads are for Bangels. :)

[THE BLUE]

I am trying to hinder uneasiness here.

[galathea]

I don't see why there should be any uneasiness in the friendly exchange of arguments. The relationship between Angel and Cordy is open to any discussion, just like anything else.

[THE BLUE]

Well, the majority of fanbase is Cangel, and I don't think given the amount of Cangels, Anti-Cangels will step in.

[galathea]

Uhm actually the majority of the fanbase is Bangels and Spuffys and Cangels are in a small minority. As I said over at BW, if you voice an opinion on a discussion board you have to expect people taking an affirmative or negative stance towards that opinion because that's what discussion boards are about. If someone is an Anti-Cangel then he/she will be able to provide good arguments for their position and should be able to defend that position against any Cangel lover. There is no reason for uneasiness or excluding people from partaking in a debate. :)

[KingofCretins]

I am pretty indifferent to Cordy/Angel, although I do think it's a more sophisticated relationship than Buffy/Angel by quite a ways. It didn't feel forced to me, it felt very organic.

[galathea]

Actually I think C/A was the most realistic, heart-warming and naturally progressed relationship in the whole Whedonverse. More often than not love isn't all about falling for each other on first sight and instant attraction but about steady and slow development. The progress from loose acquaintances, to co-workers, to friends and finally lovers was beautifully done. :heart:

Their relationship was about change and growth with each other and finding in that process that what used to separate them from each other became the thing that complements them. Like Angels broodiness brought out Cordelia's caring traits and Cordy's bubbling and sunny personality nudged Angel's human and dorky side to the surface. Angel and Cordelia high-lightened each other's positive character traits, they were both better people because of the influence of the other and I love that about them.

I have no idea how anybody can categorize them as brother and sister. Cordy's initial statement when she sees Angel for the first time refers to her being attracted to him. In 'City Of..' Angel calls Cordy a 'hottie' and the way he checks her out in that flimsy bathing suit in 'Belonging' is everything but brotherly. :D

Some people seem to think that just because there was no open sexual tension between them, they weren't physically attracted to each other. But you have to look into the nature of their relationship to understand its expression. It was based on friendship, trust, loyalty and closeness. They lived under the threat of the curse, denying that they had deeper feelings for each other, hence outward and open sexual tension wouldn’t have fit with this couple. But that doesn’t mean, that it wasn’t there. You just have to look for it in the small gestures and gazes, it’s subtle and more hidden, because physical attraction isn’t only about aggressive sexual tension, it’s also about intimacy and tenderness and Cordy and Angel had that in spades. :heart:

So no, their relationship didn't feel forced or unnatural to me, but rich, deep, layered and as KingOfCretins stated so well, organic!

[KingofCretins]

There was mutual sexual attraction, just no flirtation. I'm almost certain there are Angel Season 1 moments where I would say he was checking her out, and she had called him "Salty Goodness" a few years earlier.

I think their strongest romantic roots were in Season 2 -- Buffy and Darla both had this tendency to deal with Angel by getting A) plaintive or B) violent. Cordy just told him off. In "Darla" when he says that he wants to make sure Darla doesn't go through the guilt thing alone, Cordy just gives him "You're not alone" and then locks his eyes. She never blinks around Angel.

[EndersWrath]

Actually I think C/A was the most realistic, heart-warming and naturally progressed relationship in the whole Whedonverse. More often than not love isn't all about falling for each other on first sight and instant attraction but about steady and slow development. The progress from loose acquaintances, to co-workers, to friends and finally lovers was beautifully done. :heart:
Have to whole heartedly agree here. I love how it wasn't just *BAM* they are in love, it took a looong while for them to both figure out that they actually did love each other. Actually I think that is why I preferred Ats relationships over BtVS ones, they took time and wasn't really ever a 'Hey, I think I love you' type situation, and I believe Cangel is the perfect example of that.

I never felt a 'deja vu' effect with it, it was to me one of the most original ones of the two shows.

Their relationship was about change and growth with each other and finding in that process that what used to separate them from each other became the thing that complements them. Like Angels broodiness brought out Cordelia's caring traits and Cordy's bubbling and sunny personality nudged Angel's human and dorky side to the surface. Angel and Cordelia high-lightened each other's positive character traits, they were both better people because of the influence of the other and I love that about them.

I love how well they brought out the best in each other, that they played off each others dominant attributes and made each other better people. I think that is why I loved Cangel way more than Bangel, Buffy could brood while Cordy never did.

I have no idea how anybody can categorize them as brother and sister. Cordy's initial statement when she sees Angel for the first time refers to her being attracted to him. In 'City Of..' Angel calls Cordy a 'hottie' and the way he checks her out in that flimsy bathing suit in 'Belonging' is everything but brotherly. :D

I have never heard that and am shocked that anyone could think that...just wow. Well if you love Wincest then that could be brotherly :roll:

Some people seem to think that just because there was no open sexual tension between them, they weren't physically attracted to each other. But you have to look into the nature of their relationship to understand its expression. It was based on friendship, trust, loyalty and closeness. They lived under the threat of the curse, denying that they had deeper feelings for each other, hence outward and open sexual tension wouldn’t have fit with this couple. But that doesn’t mean, that it wasn’t there. You just have to look for it in the small gestures and gazes, it’s subtle and more hidden, because physical attraction isn’t only about aggressive sexual tension, it’s also about intimacy and tenderness and Cordy and Angel had that in spades. :heart:

So no, their relationship didn't feel forced or unnatural to me, but rich, deep, layered and as KingOfCretins stated so well, organic!

I think that Cordy lived her sexual tension of Angel through Groo, I mean she basically turned him into Angel and even got something to block the 'curse' of her losing her visions. I am personally glad that they didn't have that agressive sexual tension, it just worked so much better without it. Otherwise wouldn't it feel too much like Bangel and give it that "deja-vu" feeling? :rolleyes:

[sherrilina]

Actually I think C/A was the most realistic, heart-warming and naturally progressed relationship in the whole Whedonverse. More often than not love isn't all about falling for each other on first sight and instant attraction but about steady and slow development. The progress from loose acquaintances, to co-workers, to friends and finally lovers was beautifully done. :heart:

Their relationship was about change and growth with each other and finding in that process that what used to separate them from each other became the thing that complements them. Like Angels broodiness brought out Cordelia's caring traits and Cordy's bubbling and sunny personality nudged Angel's human and dorky side to the surface. Angel and Cordelia high-lightened each other's positive character traits, they were both better people because of the influence of the other and I love that about them.

I have no idea how anybody can categorize them as brother and sister. Cordy's initial statement when she sees Angel for the first time refers to her being attracted to him. In 'City Of..' Angel calls Cordy a 'hottie' and the way he checks her out in that flimsy bathing suit in 'Belonging' is everything but brotherly. :D

Some people seem to think that just because there was no open sexual tension between them, they weren't physically attracted to each other. But you have to look into the nature of their relationship to understand its expression. It was based on friendship, trust, loyalty and closeness. They lived under the threat of the curse, denying that they had deeper feelings for each other, hence outward and open sexual tension wouldn’t have fit with this couple. But that doesn’t mean, that it wasn’t there. You just have to look for it in the small gestures and gazes, it’s subtle and more hidden, because physical attraction isn’t only about aggressive sexual tension, it’s also about intimacy and tenderness and Cordy and Angel had that in spades. :heart:

So no, their relationship didn't feel forced or unnatural to me, but rich, deep, layered and as KingOfCretins stated so well, organic!


EXCELLENT post! :) And so very true--there was nothing "deja vu" about Cangel, unless you think that any relationship that Angel has as a vampire with a human is deja vu--and in that case, if Angel was only allowed to love Buffy and could never have his own love interest on his own show, it would be so boring....love interests are a major part of what makes a show tick, and you can have a whole show with no love interest present on the show for the lead character. And the relationship itself was nothing like Bangel--Bangel was much more fairy-tale like or epic, while Cangel is more realistic and down-to-earth. Bangel is more dramatic and angsty and over-emotional, with much more fighting and all-around drama-rama, while Cangel was more understated and subtle, more peaceful and content. And Cordy and Buffy have much different effects on Angel. Buffy mostly keeps Angel for herself, and is ok with him being in the shadows waiting for her and her alone (so jealously does she guard him that he's hardly able to talk to another woman without Buffy having a fit), encouraging him to brood and not encouraging him to hang out with her and her friends more. With Cordy it's the opposite--Cordy doesn't put up with Angel's brooding, she forces him to confront his feelings, draws him out into the human world, brings out a more human side of him, helps him feel more connected with the world rather than letting him continue to feel isolated from it (outside of his contact with Buffy). Also, for the most part Cordy is much more accepting of Angel's vampiric nature than Buffy is, I think. Though Cordy sometimes teases Angel about beign a vamp, she openly gives him blood in her kitchen glasses (even trying to prepare it in a new and special way), and when she brings it up is usually matter-of-fact--unlike Buffy, who, as Angel notes "always brings up the vampire thing every time we argue". On this note, Buffy is also always wishing for a normal life with Angel, that he could be a normal boyfriend and she a normal girl--her conversation with Angel at the beginning of The Prom is almost painful to watch. Cordy on the other hand, just accepts Angel as a vampire and makes the best of it--she doesn't try to pretend he's soemthing he's not.

I don't mean to completely dump on Bangel--I do love it in seasons 1-3 of Buffy. But I'm just pointing out that Cangel is a completely different relationship than Bangel, and is not "deja vu" in the slightest!

[Salvation]

I didnt like Cangel at all seeing them together i dont know ,it's kinda weird to me ,i like it more when they more FRIENDS than LOVERS.

[THE BLUE]

Uhm actually the majority of the fanbase is Bangels and Spuffys and Cangels are in a small minority. As I said over at BW, if you voice an opinion on a discussion board you have to expect people taking an affirmative or negative stance towards that opinion because that's what discussion boards are about. If someone is an Anti-Cangel then he/she will be able to provide good arguments for their position and should be able to defend that position against any Cangel lover. There is no reason for uneasiness or excluding people from partaking in a debate. :)

You can't go Spuffy and Bangel boards to smash it, so it is only natural if you are cangel, not to step in anti-cangel thread, do you want me to go on Spuffy and Cangel shippers union threads and write long posts about how they stink? Because that's you and your friends do in ANTI-Cangel Thread, saying how natural and well-crafted relation it is, you don't respect anyone but yourself. You know what, open a Cangel thread and prepare for welcoming Cangel haters and then come and write long posts about respecting other people's opinions and people taking an affirmative or negative stances, especially negative stances.

[Francy]

You can't go Spuffy and Bangel boards to smash it, so it is only natural if you are cangel, not to step in anti-cangel thread, do you want me to go on Spuffy and Cangel shippers union threads and write long posts about how they stink? Because that's you and your friends do in ANTI-Cangel Thread, saying how natural and well-crafted relation it is, you don't respect anyone but yourself. You know what, open a Cangel thread and prepare for welcoming Cangel haters and then come and write long posts about respecting other people's opinions and people taking an affirmative or negative stances, especially negative stances.

Hey, calm down. Since BW existed, and now on Buffy Forums, EVERY thread, even the anti-something threads, are open to discussion to everyone. Maybe YOU weren't paying attention, because it has always been that way, and unless Nikki says that the rules have changed, everyone is entitled to partecipate in any thread they want, as long as they do it politely and respecting the rules. If you can't hold your ground on a debate, or you don't want to, either you stop posting, or you accept that also other people with different opinions are entitled to voice their opinion. I am a Spuffy and I have always debated in the Bangel thread...if you have something to say, you can go in the Spuffy thread, and debate with the Spuffies, or in the Cangel thread, and challenge the Cangels. Either way, it's not up to you to tell someone to stop posting in a thread.

[sherrilina]

You can't go Spuffy and Bangel boards to smash it, so it is only natural if you are cangel, not to step in anti-cangel thread, do you want me to go on Spuffy and Cangel shippers union threads and write long posts about how they stink? Because that's you and your friends do in ANTI-Cangel Thread, saying how natural and well-crafted relation it is, you don't respect anyone but yourself. You know what, open a Cangel thread and prepare for welcoming Cangel haters and then come and write long posts about respecting other people's opinions and people taking an affirmative or negative stances, especially negative stances.
Yes you can go to Bangel and Spuffy boards and express negative opinions, as long as they are well-reasoned or are reasons, and not "Bangel sucks balls!" or "Spike is gross, I hate Spuffy!" Also as long as you don't insult the shippers themselves, and politely debate, it IS respectful of others to post negative, yet debate-provoking posts in an oppositional thread. That's the key thing--to provoke debate (this IS a forum), not just bash mindlessly if you're posting in an "enemy" thread--though it's generally a good idea to do that even in shipping threads of your own opinion.

So yes, you'll notice that I have opened a pro-Cangel thread, which you are free to come into and debate Cangel in--you could respond to what I say in my first post for example, say why you disagree with those points. And you would not find me coming in here and retaliating, talking about respecting other's opinons--it's perfectly respectful to disagree, as long as you're respectful in doing so!

[galathea]

You can't go Spuffy and Bangel boards to smash it, so it is only natural if you are cangel, not to step in anti-cangel thread, do you want me to go on Spuffy and Cangel shippers union threads and write long posts about how they stink? Because that's you and your friends do in ANTI-Cangel Thread, saying how natural and well-crafted relation it is, you don't respect anyone but yourself. You know what, open a Cangel thread and prepare for welcoming Cangel haters and then come and write long posts about respecting other people's opinions and people taking an affirmative or negative stances, especially negative stances.

From the Rules for the shipper section of this board:

Please note that just because a club is pro a ship that doesn't mean that members who don't feel the same way can't post in that thread. They probably won't be joining the club, but a healthy debate can only take place when there are people on both sides. And since this is a discussion forum I'm encouraging it Just remember.. no insulting!

I have no desire to smash Bangels or Spuffies and I have every respect for their opinions and feelings and had long and satisfying debates with other shippers. I am never anything but polite and simply argue my case. You present opinions and statements and I am allowed and inclined to argue about them.

This is a discussion board, if you don't want to discuss your Anti-Cangel position then you are free to go to a specific shipper board. We already have a pro Cangel thread and you are very welcomed there to voice your opinion and arguments against it. Going around and insulting everybody who is just politely stating their opinion that differs from yours won't help your case though.

[bishopcruz]

Well, gonna play devils avocate here since there seems to be more pro-cangel activity in this threa than anti. Let's get the Anti-cangel people stating what they don't like about it, and why, to get the club going.

[Salvation]

I dont like anything about them ,why bcuz it's seems like brother & siser engagging in love realtionship beyond their brother/sister love.Their relationship to me wsnt based on real love than the fact they were alone & needed someone to spend the time with nothing more.

To me i didnt see any kind of fire works in their so called "LOVE REALTIONSHIP'' it turned from friendship to convenet one.I even saw more passion n Codry's relationship with Xander than her's with Angel.

[Nostalgia]

Definetly forced.. definetly useless.

Please add me to this shipper.

[Salvation]

so forced ADD ME too.

[sherrilina]

so forced ADD ME too.
Please elaborate...how was it any more forced than Fresley or Bangel, or any of the other ships? You can't just post one-liners...

I dont like anything about them ,why bcuz it's seems like brother & siser engagging in love realtionship beyond their brother/sister love.Their relationship to me wsnt based on real love than the fact they were alone & needed someone to spend the time with nothing more.

To e i didnt see any kind of fair works in their so called "LOVE REALTIONSHIP'' it turned from friendship to convenet one.I even saw more passion n Codry's relationship with Xander than her's with Angel.
I don't understand your point about them being alone...they weren't alone by default, they CHOSE to spend alone time together--Cordy seeks Angel out to comfort and console him in season 3 after Connor is kidnapped when no one else dares to talk to him, she decides to accompany him in WITW and stay glued to his hip in YW when she had other firends aroudn to stand by. THEY decide to train alone together, and to look at rooms alone together when Groo is also there to spend time with. They make a conscious decision to spend time alone b/c they enjoy each other's company, and want to be alone--which is more of an indication of romantic basis than against it...

And lol, there is definitely attraction there that isn't brotherly/sisterly! I would hope brothers wouldn't check their sisters out like Angel did when they're in bikinis, unable to take their eyes off their sisters' breats, or that sisters wouldn't call their brothers' "salty goodness," lol! ;)

And how wasn't their relatonship built on real love? They had 3 seasons to grow closer and closer, and to fall in love with one another, slowly, with Cordy falling for Angel for his selflessness, his bravery, his determination in keeping on fighting despite his misery (as she states in YW), and Angel falling for Cordy's humor and spunk, her growing care for others and bravery and determination in bearing the visions though they were killing her. She helps him lighten up, while he makes her a better and more serious person. They enjoy each other's company immensely, as shown above, and need each other (even in season 1 he was saying so!). How is that not a real and solid basis for love? How is that not any more solid than Buffy and Angel looking at each other, for example--it would seem more of a real and solid basis to me! What evidence is there that it's not based on real love? Alll evidence seems to point to the contrary IMO, as I argue above...

Close friends becoming something more is not uncommon--it's as legit a love model as the dramatic and overly passionate model of Bangel or the love/hate model of Spuffy. Just b/c it's different doesn't mean it's not really love--and lol, I think WITW, YW, etc (plus Angel's vivid dreams and fantasies about Cordy) make it clear there was passion there! ;)

[LRae12]

I never saw any real lusty passion from Cangel, either. I saw them as very true, deep friends, but there was no chemistry, and I think that's what the anti-Cangels are picking up on when the say it seemed force.

The actors themselves had very little romantic chemistry together and the 'forced' ship didn't work for Anti-Cangels (myself included). Personally, I loved Cordelia pre-Birthday, and I loved her ship with Angel in the antagonistic friendship way. Kinda like Buffy and Xander...great friends, but ewww, when you think of the romantically.

After Birthday, Cordy's character took on a huge assasination and all of a sudden, ooh, gee, let's hook these two up romantically. It just didn't work. I never really felt the 'love' from Angel for Cordelia like he had for Buffy. Even in Awakening with Angel's 'perfect happiness dream' when he made love with Cordy, whose name did he call out? Buffy's. If you listen carefully, you'll hear it...I think the production crew was being cheap and didn't want to re-film his soul-losing moment and just subbed in when Angel called out Buffy's name in Btvs when he was losing his soul, or it could just have been a freudian slip...;)

After S4 ended and Cordy was in her coma, Angel didn't seem all that concerned when he ran off to Sunnydale and grilled Buffy over her ship w/Spike and cookie dough...if he was 'so in love' with Cordelia, wouldn't it not have mattered if Buffy would choose him in the long run?

[sherrilina]

I never saw any real lusty passion from Cangel, either. I saw them as very true, deep friends, but there was no chemistry, and I think that's what the anti-Cangels are picking up on when the say it seemed force.

The actors themselves had very little romantic chemistry together and the 'forced' ship didn't work for Anti-Cangels (myself included).
You're an Anti-Cangel? No kidding...;) :p

Well I guess we'd have to agree to disagree as far as chemistry...I thought the scenes in WITW and Awakening, as well as in Tomorrow (her whispering those things in his ear) were full of chemistry, as well as their kiss in YW. But I guess that just depends on the person--b/c I know some people think Xander and Buffy have chemistry, and I have yet to see that...so I guess it might seemed forced if you don't see any chemistry b/t DB and CC...


Personally, I loved Cordelia pre-Birthday, and I loved her ship with Angel in the antagonistic friendship way. Kinda like Buffy and Xander...great friends, but ewww, when you think of the romantically.

After Birthday, Cordy's character took on a huge assasination and all of a sudden, ooh, gee, let's hook these two up romantically. It just didn't work. I never really felt the 'love' from Angel for Cordelia like he had for Buffy.

Well yeah, it wasn't exactly the same kind of love as he had for Buffy--less melodramatic for one thing :p --but it was still love. Just like Spike loves Buffy, but not quite in the same way Angel did....;)

I do agree with what you say about B/X, but I don't understand how Cordy's character took on a huge assassination after Birthday--so you're saying you dislike her character, that her character was *that* different in Provider, WITW, and Couplet? :confused2: I can see that her character changed a bit more starting in Double or Nothing, but there was basis before in the season leading up to it--all really starting when she was cursed by the demon in TSILA and got all those visions of pain that drove her mad. And I also don't see how you can say that "all of a sudden, ooh, gee, let's hook these two up romantically" occurred after Birthday--there were TONS of signs, but subtle and overt, that there was something more than friendship developing b/t them. I mean, the whole idea of Kyrumption and Angel beginning to realize the nature of his feelings for Cordy (and his memorable and hilarious "manpire" speech), not to mention his great concern for Cordy that overrides his concern for Darla pregnant with his child ("I'll kill her for this!") that all occur in Offspring, several epps before, Birthday, as does his telling Cordy that she in herself is important and going to release Billy without a qualm in TVT to save Cordy, his panic and desperation when she is sucked into Pylea, frantically trying to follow, to hell with what could happen (in a manner which is not dissimilar to how he often responded to Buffy being in danger), his many attempts to get back into her good graces after he returns to AI, his growing insecurity about Cordy ("Well, I would think you'd love me as a fellow co-worker...", "Cordy thinks I'm melodramatic?" ""You think I'm fat?", etc), Cordy's "I can't give up the visions b/c then you wouldn't need me anymore" (putting Angel before herself...EIGHT episodes before Birthday!), her kind fo regretful "nothing you can do to fix that [meaning not being able to have sex], huh?", etc--ALL of this happens before Birthday, not to mention all the stuff that happens in Birthday itself indicating a developing romance between them--so how can you say that it was all of a sudden that the writers continued to take Cordy and Angel in that direction even more overtly? :confused2:

Also, why didn't you like Cordy's character in Birthday itself? (as I recall from the Rank!it...whcih btw, are you going to bring over here, lol?)


Even in Awakening with Angel's 'perfect happiness dream' when he made love with Cordy, whose name did he call out? Buffy's. If you listen carefully, you'll hear it...I think the production crew was being cheap and didn't want to re-film his soul-losing moment and just subbed in when Angel called out Buffy's name in Btvs when he was losing his soul, or it could just have been a freudian slip...;)

And if YOU listen (or watch) carefully, lol, you'll notice that Angel doesn't say Buffy's name until AFTER he has experienced perfect happiness in the midst of sex with Cordy and has already begun to lose his soul--you can tell by the fact that the music suddenly changes, turning sinister, Cordy and everything around him freezes (as if once he achieved perfect happiness the dream ended), he suddenly gets a strange, pained look on his face, and THEN he says Buffy's name! So no, it wasn't him saying Buffy's name during their sex like how Anya said Johnathan's name during sex in Superstar, showing that he was thinking of the other person during the sex. It wasn't a matter of him calling out Buffy's name while making love to Cordy, it's a matter of him calling out her name while losing his soul! Which is a very different case, and does not contradict Cangel. I think it's more of a memory kind of deal--as Angel begins to lose his soul, he remembers the last time it happened, after having sex with Buffy, and thus says Buffy's name, caught up in the memory and experiencing the same sensations as last time all over again. He said "Buffy!" last time, the only other time he's lost his soul, and so when he feels the same sensations again it's like his jerk response to repeat the same things as well--I don't think Angel was thinking very clearly at the moment to go on more than just jerk memory. I don't think remembering that it was Buffy who made him lose his soul last time is a Freudian slip, lol--it would have been if he had said Buffy's name during sex, but since he didn't....and besides, the whole point fo the dream in Awakening was that it was Angel's innermost, subconscious desires--peace among the gang, making up with Cordy and his son, defeating the Beast, and finally being able to be with Cordy, fully--so that Dream!Cordy is able to make him forget about the curse. Angel had no control over the dream, it was all what would make him most happy. And Buffy was nowhere to be seen in the dream! If Buffy was still the one he wanted at that point, she would have come to LA and they would have gotten back together in the end, and he would have been having sex with Buffy, not Cordy--but it's Cordy he's with in the dream! Which shows that it's Cordy he wants by the time of that episode, NOT Buffy....


After S4 ended and Cordy was in her coma, Angel didn't seem all that concerned when he ran off to Sunnydale and grilled Buffy over her ship w/Spike and cookie dough...if he was 'so in love' with Cordelia, wouldn't it not have mattered if Buffy would choose him in the long run?
See the jealousy thread for my full response on this matter, but in short, throughout this whole appearance he's acting extremely OOC in general, given what had happened on Angel and even how he had behaved before on BTVS. I mean, another good question would be why he was smiling and cracking jokes, and acting jaunty in the beginning of his appearance after all he had been through--wtf?! And YW came after that, in which he makes it clear he still has deep feelings for Cordy--he says himself he's "lost without [her]" and that he thinks about what they could have had if they had been able to be together "all the time".

As for his reaction to Spike, well Angel and Spike have never gotten along as you well know, and so it's only natural he'd react that way to discovering that SPIKE of all people was now having a relationship with his ex--it doesn't mean he still hasn't gotten over Buffy or whatever. I'm sure that Xander would have acted in much the same immature and seemingly jealous way if he had learned that Cordy was now in love with HIS old nemesis Angel, as much as he's in love with Anya! As someone mentioned in an old thread on BW, his behavior concerning Buffy and Spike, as seen there and in TGIQ is more a matter of petty pride and old antagonisms than of love--he certainly wasn't acting very lovey-dovey towards Buffy! (I mean, in TGIQ he commiserates with Spike about wishing they could lock Buffy up in a box! Not really love there...)

Okay, sorry for the long post, but I wanted to fully respond to LRae's points! ;)

[LRae12]

You're an Anti-Cangel? No kidding...;) :p


Also, why didn't you like Cordy's character in Birthday itself? (as I recall from the Rank!it...whcih btw, are you going to bring over here, lol?)




Ok...I answered that question of yours in the Angel section under the Cordy/visions thread...too lazy to copy it over, so you can read it there...;)

As far as the Rank It! game, I'm not sure I'm going to move it over. It wasn't getting a whole lot of feedback at Buffyworld, and the games I have moved over here all ready are only getting about half of the amount of feedback that they were, so for the amount of work I put into that thread, it's not worth it for me to continue if only two or three people participate. :p


I do agree with what you say about B/X, but I don't understand how Cordy's character took on a huge assassination after Birthday--so you're saying you dislike her character, that her character was *that* different in Provider, WITW, and Couplet? I can see that her character changed a bit more starting in Double or Nothing, but there was basis before in the season leading up to it--all really starting when she was cursed by the demon in TSILA and got all those visions of pain that drove her mad. And I also don't see how you can say that "all of a sudden, ooh, gee, let's hook these two up romantically" occurred after Birthday--there were TONS of signs, but subtle and overt, that there was something more than friendship developing b/t them. I mean, the whole idea of Kyrumption and Angel beginning to realize the nature of his feelings for Cordy (and his memorable and hilarious "manpire" speech), not to mention his great concern for Cordy that overrides his concern for Darla pregnant with his child ("I'll kill her for this!") that all occur in Offspring, several epps before, Birthday, as does his telling Cordy that she in herself is important and going to release Billy without a qualm in TVT to save Cordy, his panic and desperation when she is sucked into Pylea, frantically trying to follow, to hell with what could happen (in a manner which is not dissimilar to how he often responded to Buffy being in danger), his many attempts to get back into her good graces after he returns to AI, his growing insecurity about Cordy ("Well, I would think you'd love me as a fellow co-worker...", "Cordy thinks I'm melodramatic?" ""You think I'm fat?", etc), Cordy's "I can't give up the visions b/c then you wouldn't need me anymore" (putting Angel before herself...EIGHT episodes before Birthday!), her kind fo regretful "nothing you can do to fix that [meaning not being able to have sex], huh?", etc--ALL of this happens before Birthday, not to mention all the stuff that happens in Birthday itself indicating a developing romance between them--so how can you say that it was all of a sudden that the writers continued to take Cordy and Angel in that direction even more overtly?

Ok, again the first half of that I answered you in the Cordy/Visions thread.

As far as all of the instance you mentioned of Angel's and Cordy's reactions to each other, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I see all of those actions as gestures of friendship. I think Angel would have done the same for Fred in those instances, and he wasn't supposedly 'in love' with her.

And if YOU listen (or watch) carefully, lol, you'll notice that Angel doesn't say Buffy's name until AFTER he has experienced perfect happiness in the midst of sex with Cordy and has already begun to lose his soul--you can tell by the fact that the music suddenly changes, turning sinister, Cordy and everything around him freezes (as if once he achieved perfect happiness the dream ended), he suddenly gets a strange, pained look on his face, and THEN he says Buffy's name! So no, it wasn't him saying Buffy's name during their sex like how Anya said Johnathan's name during sex in Superstar, showing that he was thinking of the other person during the sex. It wasn't a matter of him calling out Buffy's name while making love to Cordy, it's a matter of him calling out her name while losing his soul! Which is a very different case, and does not contradict Cangel. I think it's more of a memory kind of deal--as Angel begins to lose his soul, he remembers the last time it happened, after having sex with Buffy, and thus says Buffy's name, caught up in the memory and experiencing the same sensations as last time all over again. He said "Buffy!" last time, the only other time he's lost his soul, and so when he feels the same sensations again it's like his jerk response to repeat the same things as well--I don't think Angel was thinking very clearly at the moment to go on more than just jerk memory. I don't think remembering that it was Buffy who made him lose his soul last time is a Freudian slip, lol--it would have been if he had said Buffy's name during sex, but since he didn't....and besides, the whole point fo the dream in Awakening was that it was Angel's innermost, subconscious desires--peace among the gang, making up with Cordy and his son, defeating the Beast, and finally being able to be with Cordy, fully--so that Dream!Cordy is able to make him forget about the curse. Angel had no control over the dream, it was all what would make him most happy. And Buffy was nowhere to be seen in the dream! If Buffy was still the one he wanted at that point, she would have come to LA and they would have gotten back together in the end, and he would have been having sex with Buffy, not Cordy--but it's Cordy he's with in the dream! Which shows that it's Cordy he wants by the time of that episode, NOT Buffy....

But see, you just made my point. I never meant that he called out Buffy's name during sex, but after as he was losing his soul. I don't buy that he only called out her name because he called it out the first time around and it was a 'memory jerk'. Why did he call out her name the first time then? Because he was in love with her and he felt himself slipping away from her and the evil slipping in. Dreams are a funny thing. Angel may have dreamed his perfect day with his son and getting Cordy in the sack, but it was Buffy's name he called out as he lost his soul. Buffy who was the only one who he loved enough to lose for the first time, and Buffy, who he called for because he still loved her and always will, as he felt himself slipping away. If it would have been Cordy who he was purely in love with, it defies logic that he would not have called for her instead. He may have WANTED Cordy, but his calling out for Buffy as he was slipping just proved that he wasn't and may never be over her.


throughout this whole appearance he's acting extremely OOC in general, given what had happened on Angel and even how he had behaved before on BTVS. I mean, another good question would be why he was smiling and cracking jokes, and acting jaunty in the beginning of his appearance after all he had been through--wtf?!

It wouldn't be OCC (that means out of character, right? :p ) if he wasn't in love with Cordy as deeply as you think. :D


And YW came after that, in which he makes it clear he still has deep feelings for Cordy--he says himself he's "lost without [her]" and that he thinks about what they could have had if they had been able to be together "all the time".

I never said he didn't have deep feelings for her. But, they weren't that of somebody head-over-heels in love. Deep, lasting friendship - absolutely. If one of my very best friends passed away, I'd be "lost" without them, as well.

If he was so broken up over Cordy, how come he never mentioned her before YW in S5? Oh, I think he may have once, but you never saw any real heartache or loss. And after she died? Not a word...except "I lost Cordy" in AHITW. He jumped in the sack with Nina quick enough. That didn't happen after Buffy and he broke up. Or after she died. Of after she came back to life.

[Salvation]

i just dont buy it,it would be much better if they stayed friends instead of trying to be lovers which no way or another worked,as someone said in the post earlier there was no chemistry & i tottally agree with it.They were a really good friend & they should stay that way.

But when you think of it i bet Joss thought as long Buffy been involved with Riley then with Spike i should hooked up Angel with Cordy which was a huge mistake bcuz most people didnt like seeing them together me included.

[EndersWrath]

i just dont buy it,it would be much better if they stayed friends instead of trying to be lovers which no way or another worked,as someone said in the post earlier there was no chemistry & i tottally agree with it.They were a really good friend & they should stay that way.

But when you think of it i bet Joss thought as long Buffy been involved with Riley then with Spike i should hooked up Angel with Cordy which was a huge mistake bcuz most people didnt like seeing them together me included.

And Buffy and Angel couldn't have stayed just as fighters? They couldn't have just been two people that worked together? No. As you said about Cangel, Joss wanted these two to be together because they had a 'taboo' relationship and it felt pretty forced. I mean by the 6th episode they were already all over each other. At least with Cangel it was spread over three seasons and it wasn't just like *BAM* I like you. There were obvious signs and points that these two liked each other but were oblivious to that fact. Everyone could see it but themselves and I love that about it, and even then it wasn't like they ever got together so how was that even really forced? Nothing happened. The scene in WITW was a spell and doesn't count as anything from the two of them though you could say that their subconscious wanted it so it was fueling it even more. I don't see how people can be so against that scene but so pro about the Bangel scene in 'IOHEFY', it's just hypocritical.

I really don't think that Joss just absent mindedly thought to put these two together and to say that is just ludacris. I mean it's not like they hooked up in Season 1, they had a lot established, they went from co-workers, to friends, to confidants, to sorta lovers. Bangel just went from co-workers (of the sort) to lovers; so how is that not rushed and then Cangel is getting bashed for being "rushed"?

I can't convince you about them not having chemistry but what is it, because she isn't blonde? I mean I don't see how people can really deny on screen chemistry. David and Charisma really had some and it was just great to watch and just flowed like they have known each other for centuries and that is one thing that I really like about it.

Buffy and Angel were great fighters and should have stayed that way.

[Salvation]

What's Being a blonde had to do anyhing with it,& let's not forget that Cordy later on dyed her hair to BLONDE what's that really means.To All Cangel Shippers out there that think that Bangel was CRUSH,SILLY & AMATURE Realationhip answer this .......

Why it took Angel YEARS to get over Buffy while it took him what weeks maybe couple months to moved on after Cordy's Death & start dating Nina?
Where is all the REAL & GREAT LOVE Angel have for Cordy as long he jumped to Nina's Arms just a short time after she's gone?

Explain that to me bcuz i dont get it.

[sherrilina]

let's not forget that Cordy later on dyed her hair to BLONDE what's that really means.

It means that Charisma Carpenter, the actress who plays Cordy, wanted to try out something new with her hair--that's all. Sure, she might not have had the best taste, but it was her personal decision to dye her hair blonde, it had nothing to do with the show.


Why it took Angel YEARS to get over Buffy while it took him what weeks maybe couple months to moved on after Cordy's Death & start dating Nina?
Where is all the REAL & GREAT LOVE Angel have for Cordy as long he jumped to Nina's Arms just a short time after she's gone?

Explain that to me bcuz i dont get it.
Well I don't get the years bit--I see season 1, maybe a bit of season 2 (though most of the time he spends obsessing over Darla, I would hardly count that as a year spent pining for Buffy!)...and I think Nina is just a different way of dealing with grief--it's not like he had any real emotional attachment to her, she was more like a distraction, or "a playmate" in Logan's words in season 2 Veronica Mars (concerning Charisma Carpenter, ironically enough). It's nothing very deep, it's pretty clear he doesn't love her or anything--it's like saying that Wes stopped loving Fred in the end of season 3, that he didn't have any "REAL & GREAT LOVE" for her, because he starts sleeping with Lilah! :rolleyes: (Though in that case he did grow to have some feelings for her...eventually).

I don't buy that he only called out her name because he called it out the first time around and it was a 'memory jerk'. Why did he call out her name the first time then? Because he was in love with her and he felt himself slipping away from her and the evil slipping in. Dreams are a funny thing. Angel may have dreamed his perfect day with his son and getting Cordy in the sack, but it was Buffy's name he called out as he lost his soul. Buffy who was the only one who he loved enough to lose for the first time, and Buffy, who he called for because he still loved her and always will, as he felt himself slipping away. If it would have been Cordy who he was purely in love with, it defies logic that he would not have called for her instead. He may have WANTED Cordy, but his calling out for Buffy as he was slipping just proved that he wasn't and may never be over her.

No, dreams like the magically induced one he had aren't a funny thing, they're what he really feels--if he had really wanted Buffy, she would have been in the dream--he would not have been able to experience perfect happiness without her. It's not a matter of dreaming one thing and really subconsciously thinking or feeling another way, the whole point of the dream is that it WAS his subconscious thoughts, feelings and desires, magically drawn out by the shaman's spell! And I don't understand how he can want Cordy, according to you, but still be in love with Buffy...:confused2: And who says that love has to do with whose name he calls out--the first time he said her name while losing her soul it very well could have been b/c she was the only other person around, within hearing distance that he knew! :rolleyes: I mean, if you felt yourself slipping, wouldn't you call out to the person you were just with? Who else would you call out to?! I don't think it necessarily has anythign to do with love--I don't think his calling out Buffy's name proves anything as far as him being over her. I still think it's memory--I mean, he's experiencing the same sensations, only ever felt once before, and is going through the same motions pretty much--why not add the same soundtrack as before--I mean, haven't you ever experienced serious deja vu? Cordy was kind of frozen at the moment, given that the dream had ended once he began losing his soul, he was alone.....and his voice sounds more confused if I recall than "LOVE OF MY LIFE!" ;)


It wouldn't be OCC (that means out of character, right? :p ) if he wasn't in love with Cordy as deeply as you think. :D

Or if he didn't love his son, or his dignity (as far as going to work for WH) that much either--but everything else we see rather contradicts that (especially as far as his son is concerned), so even ignoring the Cangel aspects, he was acting out of character based on everything else we had seen in seasons 3 and 4 regarding Connor, and what we had seen as far as how much he hated WH and how reluctant he was to run it.


He jumped in the sack with Nina quick enough. That didn't happen after Buffy and he broke up. Or after she died. Of after she came back to life.
Hm, I think he might have liked to with a certain demoness in She....;) And wait a minute--you're saying he didn't jump in the sack with anyone after he broke up with Buffy? B/c hello, DARLA!!!! :p

[omri]

So forced, so useless, and kinda dumb. ADD ME please

[sometimeslola]

First and foremost I'm not a huge fan of Cangel or Bangel. At all. I don't mind it in the very least but don't fuss too much over them. I do however prefer his Darla Saga. If anything. But I just wanted to defend the Cangel's here because People should know by now that love is always coming and going and that people deal with different love differently.

SO when Angel had called Buffy's name in the dream. I otta just state the fact here. DREAM! An Hallucination of his innermost fears and desires. This means it's all layered and it most definitely is not one or the other, its in true fact meant to confuse us a little. At that time he was in love with Cordy and wanted to start something with her which means he dreams of it happening, he sees him and her together, later making love. Now this is everything he wants but also his fears. He looses his soul to her, that i believe proves that he loves her or that he at least thinks he loves her enough to loose it. NO matter what anyone says at that period in time he did love Cordy, he wanted to be with her despite the fact that he thinks he shouldn't be with anyone due to his issues- issues that made him leave Buffy. HE wanted Cordy, he thought she understood him better than anyone (and Buffy) cause Unlike Buffy he thought with Cordy his Angelus side wasn't so much of a damper on things since she had already dealt with him and not broke down. Was later wrong but he still thought so.

so far we know Angel did love Cordy or wanted to be with her. Now he did say Buffy's name. That again is all part of dreams. Dreams also replay past. He said her name not because he still loved her, not because he didn't love Cordy enough but because he relates Buffy to loosing his soul. Its simply his mind mixing things together. If he had first lost his soul to Darla he would say her name only because the only other time that happened to him it was because of her, His mind only has that occasion to refer to. You see, if i wanted i could go both ways. I can honestly say that he connects Buffy to his worse night mare or his best moments. But we all know that he thinks loosing his soul, perfect happiness is bad.

Now. I agree that Buffy will always be beyond important to Angel. She was after all the first time he loved beyond his understanding, the first time he felt like a man. Like many first loves they never leave you, if they come back you feel like you want to be with them but we know we had our time with that person, we know it DID NOT WORK and that's why we're not with them anymore. IT's the same with Buffy! He wants to believe that one day they can be together but we all know that Angel wants to believe a lot of things but truly inside he knows that'll only happen if he becomes human and that to him will be never. He's not an idiot, he knows loves comes and goes.

Unlike his love for Buffy with its melodramatic sweetness. His love for Cordy was something of a different nature one that adults tend to know better. See Buffy love was the all teenage love, all or nothing kinda thing. As for Cordy and Angel it was the common we grow together and find that we have fallen for one another and take a lot of things in consideration before deciding anything. It don't mean one is better than the other its just means its a different kind of love. Like i said, we love differently with different people. Now Cordy and Angel dint get to be together and that makes people assume it wasn't all that. Come on people! They where just taking a chance, at the begging of it all so it doesn't meant that there wasn't love cause there was. He thought so and so did she. There!

As for after death thing. Angel felt bad for Darla's death, relieved when she came back. HE morned her but had Buffy. He left Buffy and later was all fuss over Darla, Buffy died and he had His friends (Cordy) So he kept living on. Cordy died and he had his friends, the world as always and then Nina, he kept living on. It's just the way it is, We try our best to move on. Angel of all people knows that. And angel of all people doesn't show his feelings, Angel of all people chooses the world over the girls-except for the Darla trial. Angel is very old and He knows that after death there's still life going on, that he needs to move on. He's a leader, its his job to be in one piece. Just because he didn't show his feelings for the girls doesn't ever mean he don't feel it. Yes, he did later somewhat refer to Cordy as mostly a friend, they somewhat talked as friends but one must remember that they didn't have the chance to have the love relationship so they keep it was it had been when she had died. Friends. BUT also Doesn't mean it was never love. SURE Angel morned Buffy in the whole love way later, only because that's all he'll ever see her as, all he knew but it also doesn't mean he loves over Cordy either.

Everything has is times. People get more than one chance at true love!

I also must add that looks an stuff is just silly. Cause its like me saying Angel was attracted to Buffy because she was a petite blond like Darla and no way are you gonna deny me cause Darla was the first, she plated the seeds which means, no matter how anyone denies it some of Angel attractions are made out of her, she was the first and was a bit like a mum- Men sort of look for a woman that have little resemblance of their mums. :roll: . So it's not fair to say Angel only started to like Cordy cause she dyed her blond. COME ON GET REAL! He choose Cordy for her understanding and personality.

I do agree their love did come out of the blue. But I suppose love does that sometimes. But then what's the bloody fuss!!!! Just love your pair and let people love theirs cause the show was good and kept it open for manipulation.

Thats what i call genius.

Do remember though. LOVE comes in all colors, shapes and sizes. Is never the same. It burns and it comforts. It last and it doesn't. Its short and long. It happens and it doesn't. So yeah. Angel loved all the woman that had any resemblance in his life. Darla. Dru. Buffy. Cordy. You name it. but never had he loved them the same.

More often than not. It ends. But it doesn't mean it was never there.

Hope i made sense...

[LRae12]

Do remember though. LOVE comes in all colors, shapes and sizes. Is never the same. It burns and it comforts. It last and it doesn't. Its short and long. It happens and it doesn't. So yeah. Angel loved all the woman that had any resemblance in his life. Darla. Dru. Buffy. Cordy. You name it. but never had he loved them the same.

More often than not. It ends. But it doesn't mean it was never there.

Hope i made sense...

No that makes perfect sense...:) I agree that Angel had feelings for Darla and Dru - they were twisted, but in his soulless vampire state, could be considered by some as love - though not by Angel himself.

With Buffy he had his first glimpse of what love really is...and it was overpowering to him - love at first sight. I agree with your statement that it was the teenage all-or-nothing kind of love - and that kind can be the most bittersweet. But they both grew up, and Angel loved Buffy so much that he sacrificed his own feelings for her own good, which is a testament to what true love is really all about. He never got over her, and I don't think he ever will...he just knew that he was wrong for her. I was so happy for him that he got his one day in the sun with Buffy, because though it was gut-wrenching for him to be the only one to remember, I think it also gave him a reason to go on - to hope - that someday it could be that way if he ever did Shanshu...so in End of Days when he showed up and cookie-doughed her, it was still out of the same love as always, because deep down he will always view her and his humanity as one and the same - his goal.

With Cordelia I agree he loved her. But like I said before it was more a deep abiding friendship kind of love. Sure, many people have built lasting marital type relationships with that kind of love before, but it's still different than the passionate can't get enough of you kind. For me, the attraction and chemistry just wasnt' there. Now Sherrilina had mentioned that Angel checked Cordy out in Belonging, but that just means that he's male...men will check out any woman scantily clad...it's just a genetic fact...:lol: It doesn't mean that he was 'in love' with her, but that his hormones were still working. ;) When Angel described what Cordy was wearing to Wes & Gunn, both of them started to drool a little, too...it doesn't mean that they considered Cordy any more than a good friend/family member...Angel and Cordy worked best with the bantering friendship - the rip on you and joke around with you when things are going well, but being considerate and comforting one another when things are rough. Like Angel himself said in Expecting when asked if he was the boyfriend, he said no, I'm family. Their relationship worked best as a familial bond - Angel, Cordy, Wes & Gunn formed their own family. And it was disconcerting to see Angel and Cordy 'forced' together romantically when that romantic love chemistry just wasn't there.

:D

[sherrilina]

Now Sherrilina had mentioned that Angel checked Cordy out in Belonging, but that just means that he's male...men will check out any woman scantily clad...it's just a genetic fact...:lol: It doesn't mean that he was 'in love' with her, but that his hormones were still working. ;) When Angel described what Cordy was wearing to Wes & Gunn, both of them started to drool a little, too...it doesn't mean that they considered Cordy any more than a good friend/family member...
Hm, so you think it'd be normal for like, a brother say to look at his sister that way? Well I don't have siblings and such, so I wouldn't know, but I just find that thought a tad disturbing....:p

I wasn't saying though that his checking out of Cordy in Belonging meant he was in love with her, I just used that as an example to counter the assertion that he didn't find her attractive or that he viewed her in a completely platonic manner--and I think that incident does refute both counts! ;)

[NileQT87]

well, luke skywalker sure looked at his sister (leia) like that in a new hope and empire strikes back. heck, they kissed... several times! once on the lips with a drool trail (granted, it was to make han jealous). but it makes a great case for uncomfortable incest innuendo in popular culture that was a product of retconning (lucas' original intention was to put luke and leia together, but harrison and carrie had a fireball of chemistry and an affair). funny how those things happen. 'nough about star wars.

sometimes external factors will change the intended artistic vision by the creator. george lucas intended star wars to be a farm kid rescues the beautiful princess tale (han solo was even envisioned as a green-skinned alien with gills at one point) and joss whedon intended cordelia to be the big bad in her own body... but the wrench thrown in the works were harrison and carrie's noticeable real-life relationship and charisma's pregnancy. in the end, the retcon is IRRELEVANT. all that matters is what you see on screen.

cangel was forced. and it was at about billy that the ball got started rolling with kyerumption and moira. back in pylea and into carpe noctem/fredless, it actually seemed more like they were considering putting angel with fred rather than cordelia. they even teased at it when they had angel and fred share a kiss, to which they say "do you think they believed it?" "i did." it seems to me that they were actually toying with both cordy and fred as possible love interests, but settled on cordy, though if there was ever an ats-only romantic relationship for angel, the most important was darla, not cordy. and cordy, despite all the talk of her being motherly, was not connor's mother. there's a tendency by cangels to reduce darla's role in angel's romantic life during ats.

cordy in pylea didn't give a crap about angel's demon problem. it wasn't cordy that soothed angel while he shuddered from seeing his demon reflection. no, cordy was off playing princess with groo. when angel saved groo's life, cordy called angel a "dumbass" and rushed to groo. that's why i see that whole belonging segment often touted by cangels to have nothing to do with being more than friends--and good point about wesley and gunn drooling too. angel probably had the hardest time in pylea, and cordy could care less--she was all about "me, me, me" there.

honestly, i'm convinced cangel was a plot device to overwhelm angel's feelings for cordy when it came time to kill her (if charisma hadn't been pregnant, it would be jasmine in cordy's body rather than a birth--the jasmine arc would still be relatively the same!). they wanted to add a punch, but the chemistry just wasn't there.

and, btw, awakening was the most awkward love scene on either show. db and cc did NOT look comfortable. vk and cc didn't look comfortable either, but db and cc was almost more awkward--you can tell db is trying to avoid squishing her and her stomach.

and imo, he said buffy not because he relates it to losing his soul, but because in his last seconds, he realizes that no matter how much he tells himself different, he still isn't over buffy--he still is in love with her. buffy is the last thought he has before he loses control.

i was also relieved when cordy became evil. it ended the assassination of her actual character which was far worse.

for all the feminists out there--doesn't it speak loudly when cordy had to CHANGE before angel could 'love' her in that way? he didn't love her as a lover when she was the old cordy, and often mentioned how she was 'too carefree' and such. and cordelia as her original self was well-known as a proponent of the kill angel if he ever has sex again crowd (her fear of angel releasing angelus went all the way into offspring). yet, suddenly she wants a relationship with him in tomorrow? i'm thinking jasmine was starting to creep in there when cordy got TRICKED into becoming part demon. that wasn't cordy sacrificing her humanity for angel--it was jasmine and skip giving her a taste of a faux future to persuade her to givingly let herself be taken over. it was all manipulation. jasmine used cordy because angel cared about her (to keep itself safe) and because jasmine could use cordy's sense of self-importance to manipulate her easily through her own pride.

unfortunately, sometimes i feel like the cornerstone of cangel is believing that several factors aren't canon because of charisma's pregnancy and the denial of end of days/chosen. it's canon. then again, there are still a handful of people who deny the canon of luke and leia being twins (really, they're out there).

[vampmogs]

well, luke skywalker sure looked at his sister (leia) like that in a new hope and empire strikes back. heck, they kissed... several times! once on the lips with a drool trail (granted, it was to make han jealous). but it makes a great case for uncomfortable incest innuendo in popular culture that was a product of retconning (lucas' original intention was to put luke and leia together, but harrison and carrie had a fireball of chemistry and an affair). funny how those things happen. 'nough about star wars.

Yeah but they didn't know they were brother and sister then! :roll: I think with Angel and Cordy would be different, Angel would already have these 'brotherly' feelings for Cordy, hence it makes the whole lusting after her thing a little wrong. I personally don't believe Angel and Cordy were like brother and sister, I don't like them as lovers either, I just like them as really, really great friends. Like Angel tells her, "All I know was that you were my dearest friend." I just love that line, he obviously cares so much about her on that level, I just wish the writers felt that was enough :(

cangel was forced. and it was at about billy that the ball got started rolling with kyerumption and moira. back in pylea and into carpe noctem/fredless, it actually seemed more like they were considering putting angel with fred rather than cordelia. they even teased at it when they had angel and fred share a kiss, to which they say "do you think they believed it?" "i did." it seems to me that they were actually toying with both cordy and fred as possible love interests, but settled on cordy, though if there was ever an ats-only romantic relationship for angel, the most important was darla, not cordy. and cordy, despite all the talk of her being motherly, was not connor's mother. there's a tendency by cangels to reduce darla's role in angel's romantic life during ats.

Yeah I agree that they did seem to consider Fred with Angel. Throughout the start of s3 Fred really likes Angel and I don't know if he realises it or not, but he does kind of flirt with her or at least lead her on unintentionally. But Angel has always been a big doof when it comes to things like that, it always cracks me up when Fred is crying over Gunn breaking up with her, and he asks "Let me get this straight, you and Gunn were dating?" :roll:

cordy in pylea didn't give a crap about angel's demon problem. it wasn't cordy that soothed angel while he shuddered from seeing his demon reflection. no, cordy was off playing princess with groo. when angel saved groo's life, cordy called angel a "dumbass" and rushed to groo. that's why i see that whole belonging segment often touted by cangels to have nothing to do with being more than friends--and good point about wesley and gunn drooling too. angel probably had the hardest time in pylea, and cordy could care less--she was all about "me, me, me" there.

But then couldn't the Cangel's counter by saying eventually her feelings developed to the point where she cared more for Angel than Groo, which is why he left? I'm not Cangel but I'm just trying to see their point.

honestly, i'm convinced cangel was a plot device to overwhelm angel's feelings for cordy when it came time to kill her (if charisma hadn't been pregnant, it would be jasmine in cordy's body rather than a birth--the jasmine arc would still be relatively the same!). they wanted to add a punch, but the chemistry just wasn't there.

I just think it was a terribly forced relationship that didn't seem right and didn't seem like it progressed to that stage naturally. Suddenly they just kind of threw it in our face, I can't say I was overly joyed by the way they had to take that relationship. Though in 'You're Welcome' I do kind of like the final kiss between the two of them. But even then my favourite of all is when Cordy says "You're Welcome" because it sums up what she did for Angel perfectly. She was his connection to the powers, his dearest friend and then his only connection to humanity after Doyle died, she was his strength after Buffy. :)

and, btw, awakening was the most awkward love scene on either show. db and cc did NOT look comfortable. vk and cc didn't look comfortable either, but db and cc was almost more awkward--you can tell db is trying to avoid squishing her and her stomach.

I'd have to say that CC and VK looked more uncomfortable, no surprises there though that was just disgusting :err: Whedon stated that both DB and CC were a uncomfortable in WITW so it probably is to be expected that they'd be uncomfortable in Awakening as well.

and imo, he said buffy not because he relates it to losing his soul, but because in his last seconds, he realizes that no matter how much he tells himself different, he still isn't over buffy--he still is in love with her. buffy is the last thought he has before he loses control.

I have to agree with that.

i was also relieved when cordy became evil. it ended the assassination of her actual character which was far worse.

Haha there is aways a silver lining to everything! :D I actually liked how she turned evil because we got a break from Cangel as well, but anything else about that story is just horrid.

for all the feminists out there--doesn't it speak loudly when cordy had to CHANGE before angel could 'love' her in that way? he didn't love her as a lover when she was the old cordy, and often mentioned how she was 'too carefree' and such. and cordelia as her original self was well-known as a proponent of the kill angel if he ever has sex again crowd (her fear of angel releasing angelus went all the way into offspring). yet, suddenly she wants a relationship with him in tomorrow? i'm thinking jasmine was starting to creep in there when cordy got TRICKED into becoming part demon. that wasn't cordy sacrificing her humanity for angel--it was jasmine and skip giving her a taste of a faux future to persuade her to givingly let herself be taken over. it was all manipulation. jasmine used cordy because angel cared about her (to keep itself safe) and because jasmine could use cordy's sense of self-importance to manipulate her easily through her own pride.

I kind of agree with that, good point. What really interests me is that Angel tells Buffy that from the moment he saw her, he saw her heart and fell in love with her. Now the first time he saw her, she was Spordelia :D It is a bit odd that no matter how shallow Buffy was Angel was still automatically in love with her, whilst it took Cordy to change and grow before Angel could develop feelings for her.

[NileQT87]

actually, the first time angel saw buffy, she was in her last seconds of being spordelia, but he saw a young girl having her world ripped away from her: becoming the only one in the world--alone. and you can tell that it is at that part that he understands what whistler intended to show him. and then he sees buffy stake her first vampire and have to lie about it to her family, then have her parent's relationship fall apart as she cries. of course he identified with her over that: having to hide what you are, being alone--the only one in the world in your predicament, a father that thinks you are a screw-up, dying prematurely, being a chosen ONE of sorts, having a destiny... notice the similarities. on the steps of hemery, buffy says "i don't have a destiny, really." merrick giving buffy her destiny and whistler giving angel his, was very similar. later on, their only "one" statuses both got crashed--by kendra/faith and spike.

in fact, i'd say buffy, wesley, darla and spike were the characters angel identified the most with.

with cordy--he didn't like her until she started becoming, well, like buffy. that's not fair to cordelia. they were best together as the dearest of friends. the need to have them be more took away cordy's place as best friend. i, too, like her exit in you're welcome. i honestly think it was because they didn't try to push cangel anymore. they had reverted her back to being his best friend and left it at that. they let her leave as just a good friend.

as for cc and db--even if they were uncomfortable in witw, they pulled it off really well. i don't know if was the way it was edited together with the ballet, the ghostly moaning and the little bit of skin, here, little bit there, but it worked. awakening, on the other hand, looked like db trying to get on cc without getting his weight near her stomach--he's also a much bigger guy than vk. at least vk laid on cc a bit more, no matter how uncomfortable. also, realize that awakening was when cc was significantly showing more in her pregnancy.

another reason why witw worked was it actually was shot pretty similarly with the shot here, shot there way that the dream scene in amends was with bangel. however, db and jb never looked obviously uncomfortable (though, i'm sure they were) either--and they had to shoot several love scenes--and often a lot more undressed. another thing witw had going for it was that it was, like most bangel love scenes, all very sensual, rather than the actual act.

but yes, i was glad cordy didn't go through any more assassination when jasmine took over. and i like the jasmine arc, btw. i think it's brilliant. i actually am glad cc got to do the evil-cordy act. it definitely improved her wardrobe when she was allowed to show she was pregnant. she actually looked less bulky when she was wearing the gauzy outfits.

cc's acting strengths have never been emotional drama and dramatic romance, but comic bitch and gauzy evil pregnant woman getting blood splattered on her worked for her.

[vampmogs]

actually, the first time angel saw buffy, she was in her last seconds of being spordelia, but he saw a young girl having her world ripped away from her: becoming the only one in the world--alone. and you can tell that it is at that part that he understands what whistler intended to show him. and then he sees buffy stake her first vampire and have to lie about it to her family, then have her parent's relationship fall apart as she cries. of course he identified with her over that: having to hide who you are, being alone--the only one in the world in your predicament, a father that thinks you are a screw-up... notice the similarities.

Yeah I guess your right, the window came down just as she said bye to her friends and sat down on the steps. DB actually stated how he felt the Cangel relationship was a mirror of the Bangel relationship, so perhaps he feels the same way about Cordy as you? He did seem to like her when became more like Buffy. Angel told Buffy that he liked her because she was different and not boring, he admired the qualities in her. Cordy eventually grew to have these qualities, heck even Lorne kind of makes a comparison between them when he says how Angel has a thing for ex cheerleaders :roll:

with cordy--he didn't like her until she started becoming, well, like buffy. that's not fair to cordelia. they were best together as the dearest of friends. the need to have them be more took away cordy's place as best friend. i, too, like her exit in you're welcome. i honestly think it was because they didn't try to push cangel anymore. they had reverted her back to being his best friend and left it at that. they let her leave as just a good friend.

That is why I like it to. Whilst we did have some Cangel with the final kiss it was more about them being friends, I could totally buy two friends just sharing a kiss, especially when the kiss also had other purposes... such as helping Angel and connecting him to the powers like she always had done in the past.

as for cc and db--even if they were uncomfortable in witw, they pulled it off really well. i don't know if was the way it was edited together with the ballet, the ghostly moaning and the little bit of skin, here, little bit there, but it worked. awakening, on the other hand, looked like db trying to get on cc without getting his weight near her stomach--he's also a much bigger guy than vk. at least vk laid on cc a bit more, no matter how uncomfortable. also, realize that awakening was when cc was significantly showing more in her pregnancy.

Oh I agree that it looked more comfortable, I was just saying how it has been said that both actors were uncomfortable with the love scenes which is probably why it looked uncomfortable on screen.

another reason why witw worked was it actually was shot pretty similarly with the shot here, shot there way that the dream scene in amends was with bangel. however, db and jb never looked obviously uncomfortable (though, i'm sure they were) either--and they had to shoot several love scenes--and often a lot more undressed. another thing witw had going for it was that it was, like most bangel love scenes, all very sensual, rather than the actual act.

DB and JB always looked very comfortable with eachother, so did SMG and DB but then they were pretty touchy feely on set.

but yes, i was glad cordy didn't go through any more assassination when jasmine took over. and i like the jasmine arc, btw. i think it's brilliant. i actually am glad cc got to do the evil-cordy act. it definitely improved her wardrobe when she was allowed to show she was pregnant. she actually looked less bulky when she was wearing the gauzy outfits.

I liked some scenes with evil Cordy, such as when she is caught trying to sneak up on Lorne, she is great there and when she sees Darla talking to Connor.

cc's acting strengths have never been emotional drama and dramatic romance, but comic bitch and gauzy evil pregnant woman getting blood splattered on her worked for her.

Oh god her acting when she is the embodiment of Cordy's inner feelings makes me want to gag, "I'm in love- with Angel!" she just delivered that so bad. But her more subtle emotional acting in "You're Welcome" was so very well done, I'll be the first to admit I have tears in my eyes watching that scene. Her eyes, and how her voice breaks at all the right moments... lets just say she convinced me.

[alexa]

This would be the only ship that I couldn't get on board with even for a little while.
To be fair, this is largely for personal preference, and I just didn't see the attraction becoming romantic at all. I'm not sure if it's because I don't like seeing Angel with anyone besides Buffy.. but I could even get into him being with Nina or Fred more then Cordy. I just didn't see the chemistry, still don't even on re-watchings when I know that she's going to die.
It felt forced to me because I didn't feel the chemistry, and yeah it did seem like a mirror to Bangel... with less quality. They make Cordelia all super, she goes blonde and falls for Angel. It's almost like they got to season3, and they know crossovers are impossible, so lets develop Cordy and Angel. I just don't feel it.

[June]

Don't add me - the ship only irks me a little but I can get into it. I just preferred them when they had a brother/sister thing going on. :/

[selenspuffy]

Hi everyone!
When I hear the word 'Cangel' , I feel strange, it is a bizarre relationhip according to Btvs.. Ats is so different. And I dont understand it. I mean not Ats, relationships.. Angel loves Cordy, Angel's child called Connor(Darla&Angel's son) falls in love with Cordy blahblahh..what's that? I mean disturbing relationships..and the root of that is Cangel..-Anti-Cangel-should be what Im supposed to support according to it, right?:)

[basakbangel]

Hi everyone!
When I hear the word 'Cangel' , I feel strange, it is a bizarre relationhip according to Btvs.. Ats is so different. And I dont understand it. I mean not Ats, relationships.. Angel loves Cordy, Angel's child called Connor(Darla&Angel's son) falls in love with Cordy blahblahh..what's that? I mean disturbing relationships..and the root of that is Cangel..-Anti-Cangel-should be what Im supposed to support according to it, right?:)

Thank you Selen for also writing what I really want to mean.!! That's so disturbing. The idea sounds very odd. Ats is different but I mean, It's so odd Angel to love Cordy-very very much. I don't deny the other ones but that makes me itchy. I never said that I'm an anticangel but I guess I'am. It supposes to be like I'm an anticangel If I say these things. Then I'm. I didn't watch it so much but I don't want to watch it. Angel has a son. that's very odd dont get me wrong please, I'm an Angelfan. I adore both David and Angel but this is one of the wierdest things I've heard.

[Nostalgia]

Let me ask this..

If you're anti-Cangel.. are you anti-Spuffy?

[basakbangel]

Let me ask this..

If you're anti-Cangel.. are you anti-Spuffy?

You asked me?

I'm not an anti-spuffy. I just don't prefer and I don't love it that much. But I don't deny it. I'm a bangel as you can see. Well, It's hard for me to clarify myself in these kind of things. Ok, let's say it like this.. I don't really love Spike and Buffy relationship but I believe that there are people that love and support I don't deny so.

I didn't understand the connection with being anti-cangel and anti-spuffy by the way.

[NileQT87]

if it was a 'who gets buffy' issue, i wouldn't be probably rooting more for DANGEL than i am for bangel. seriously. i envision the best possible ending being something along the lines of darla/angel/connor.

the whole 'cangels/spuffies stick to together because they hate bangel' thing and the 'all bangels hate spuffy and cangel' thing are complete hooey. i fully enjoy spuffy--in context--i see it mostly as a growth opportunity for spike, but, like angel, see him as needing to find his own destiny without buffy.

cangel is just all kinds of wrong, imo. especially how badly it was written (cordy had to turn into buffy and angel had to turn into a dork--not far off from xander--for it to work). it was also sudden. several episodes they were pushing fred/angel, then they decided on fred/wesley, and by "offspring" they did a 180° with angel/cordy--which was thankfully put a nice fat kibosh on by darla, groo and jasmine.

imo, i don't see jasmine's evil-cordy phase as character assassination. the assassination was in season 3. season 4 was a salvage mission. i think joss was right in what he had to do to salvage cordelia. she had to be the next friend lost. and remember--"not fade away" would never have been so powerful if angel had any human friends alive by the end. cordy had to die some way... and it needed to be gradual... or else suddenly killing cordy and fred a few episodes from each other out of the sudden would have been too much. they did kill them 3 episodes apart, but with cordy it was a long time coming, which let fred be the shocking, sudden one.

another problem with cangel was it called on charisma carpenter to display drama... and she really struggles with it. it was unpleasant at several points just because of her inability to really play that kind of role.

i think it says a lot that the best episodes of season 3 ats were the ones where cordy was pushed aside for darla or physically absent (which brought the focus to angel, connor and wesley).

[Nostalgia]

I was not directing anything..

and the connection is pretty simple I thought?

It's the opposite of Cangel.. Buffy's second strongest relationship. Are we to be anti-spuffy if we are anti-Cangel?

Coming from a shipper of both Bangel and Spuffy (<3).. I disagree. I believe Cangel can't work and Spuffy can.

Do you guys?

[Enisy]

Thought I'd chime in. I don't think Spike/Buffy and Angel/Cordelia go hand-in-hand, although I suppose some fans of those 'ships might feel the need to team up -- strength in numbers, and all. Spike/Buffy is my favourite 'ship, but I generally dislike Angel/Cordelia. I thought the 'ship had gotten off on a good start with Angel's one-sided crush on Cordelia, but the transition from "crush" to "love" in Angel's case and "friendship" to "love" in Cordelia's came off very forced and unnatural. Plus David and Charisma had little sexual chemistry, in my eyes, compared to David/Julie, David/Eliza, David/Sarah or Charisma/Nick.

One good thing did come out of that 'ship, though: "You're Welcome". What a lovely episode. :)

[basakbangel]

I was not directing anything..

and the connection is pretty simple I thought?

It's the opposite of Cangel.. Buffy's second strongest relationship. Are we to be anti-spuffy if we are anti-Cangel?

Coming from a shipper of both Bangel and Spuffy (<3).. I disagree. I believe Cangel can work and Spuffy can.

Do you guys?

I also disagree.. I didn't say that I was both Bangel and Spuffy. I'm not. I'm a bangel and for a bangel of course there's no point of being also a spuffy. The thing is I didn't watch ATS and I just said my pre-opinion.

[Nostalgia]

You can be shippers of both.. I love Spuffy and is my favorite relationship in any TV series. I also loved Bangel as well.. and is up there for me as one of the greatest relationships as well. You can love both.

Cangel to me, just did not seem right. The forced feeling of it disposes it over the Buffy and Spike relationship.

[BangelFan2202]

I didnt like Cangel at all seeing them together i dont know ,it's kinda weird to me ,i like it more when they more FRIENDS than LOVERS.

Yup that's exactly how I see them too, I just don't seem them romantically.

Trish