Angel: After the Fall Issue #1 Discussion Thread (Spoilers) [Archive]

KingofCretins

21-09-07, 07:02 PM

This doesn't actually come out until November, but with all the speculation of the preview and the "every post has spoiler tags" thing we have going on the comic thread, I think it needs its own thread.

Angel: After the Fall #1 Preview (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/34064)

I'm in happy, happy agreement with the idea of "After the Fall" not resolving the 'ships. Or, if it does, it does so by simply realizing they're over.

We don't really know anymore what the time frame that "After the Fall" will cover is -- it obviously picks up "a few months" after "Not Fade Away", which still makes it presumably before "The Long Way Home", but we don't know if it will actually extend into the time frame during which Season 8 is taking place.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that they ever have to deal with about the Angel corner of the Buffyverse is to explain why the stuff in LA doesn't really preoccupy the Scoobies (for which I'm thankful... please don't retcon us out of that).

ThePoet's<3

04-10-07, 06:18 AM

The 12 issues of the run will be broken into arcs, separated by a month after each arc. A special issue will fill in each month that a regular series issue isn’t being released. The first special will be called "First Night" and will feature several stories looking at other characters in the mythos who will not be playing larger roles in the main story.

Remember Beta George? The psychic fish from Asylum and Shadow Puppets? Yeah, he's been inducted into canon. We'll have to wait until we get the first issue of Angel: After the Fall to see if this means that Asylum and Shadow Puppets have been retro canonized as well. Those comics, I feel, deserve their place in the canon of the Buffyverse.

Brian Lynch: “The cast was about to fight a fight that they were going to lose, and this series deals with the fallout of that; Angel knew going in that he was going to lose, and this is the fallout of him taking a stand against a force that he couldn’t beat”

Chris Ryall (IDW): "It will show Angel and his team dealing with very heavy issues like the fact that they were actually defeated at the end of the show and what that means to Angel."November 2007

Posted by PatShand at 11:02 AM 0 comments Links to this post

Labels: Angel, Angel: After the Fall, Brian Lynch, Joss Whedon, News

That explains some of the rumors of why someone who looks like Gwen and Connor and his gang.

I do hope they bring in the Spike: Asylum and Shadow Puppets gang! I'm not crazy about Beta George - but if they could bring Beck!! Woohoo! Or even Tok! But that would also bring Lorne back!

continued from quote above about the last issue of Spike: Shadow Puppets -
Speculation: This wouldn't normally get a speculation category, but with "Angel: After the Fall" coming out next month, I had to do it. The presence of "Spoiler Wesley" introduces that fact that this--maybe--might take place after "Not Fade Away." If so, Gunn is alive... (REMEMBER everyone, this section is, as the title says, pure speculation). Lorne was talking to a 'Charlie' on the phone, trying to convince him that they should do children shows. If so, it means that Lorne is still hanging with--at least some of--the Fang Gang.

If you are not reading Shadow Puppets a quick run-down of what he is talking about:

WARNING: Spike: Shadow Puppets Issue #4 Spoilers!!

Spike, Lorne, Tok, Beck and Beta George are trying to keep Smile Time from taking over the world. Smile Time fights back by looking into Spike's file from W&H and pulls out puppets from the A-Team: 2 Gunns - Pre-W&H Gunn and Post-W&H, 3 Wesleys - "Classis Wesley", "Spoiler Wesley" and "New Wesley", a puppet who is half Illyria and half Fred, Cordy and Connor puppets, and a Drusilla puppet. All headed by a Angelus puppet - NOT Angel. These puppets fight Spike to distract him from getting to Smile Times secret weapon Dicky the Duck. LOLOL!! However, Spike learns a valuable lesson - finally: "He is a People who Bloody damn well needs People". While he's tied up with the puppet gang, Tok, Beck, Beta George and Lorne all playing their key postions on "Team Spike" defeat Smile Time.

On the way home to LA Lorne talks to someone named "Charlie".

So we may have some "clues" as to what the first arc will be about.

The only way Gunn could survive "you have about 20 minutes left" (Illyria) is for one of the Fang Gang to bite him - or he was bitten by one of the Vampires he fought. But could Wesley be back as well??

NileQT87

04-10-07, 10:58 AM

am i the only one who doesn't like brian lynch's self-promotion? and i think the whole beta george the psychic fish, shadow puppets, etc... retro-canonization is a BAD idea. it's one thing to canonize a continuation of a show in comic form, another to canonize back comics that are, imo, on shaky ground. smile time on its own was on shaky ground for ats--it was pretty much saved by the fact that w&h was making angel into a puppet metaphorically (or they thought they were--angel used that against them). that's the only ground it stands on. turning the rest of the characters into puppets so they can tear each others' felt is just retarded... it totally neglects the one strong point of the episode--mostly it felt a lot like lightening attempts to appease the wb to start with.

we get that lynch loves spike. that's all fine and well... but despite telling us he knows the show is called angel, he sure still seems focused on spike. the dragon thing... why do i not think that was joss' idea? especially since lynch seemed really excited about it--and he seems most excited by his ideas rather than joss' (whose input feels utterly lost here--so far i haven't seen his fingerprint on anything we've heard). where's the depth coming? demon brothels so far isn't that direction. so far i'm not getting a drama vibe. i'm getting a comic action/bad comedy/chicks with breasts vibe.

it's one thing to hear about angel dealing with losing a battle... another to get a puff the magic dragon fanboy dream riding on a dragon scene with absolutely no emotions coming across angel's face. in fact, the focus of the first several pages isn't even angel. it's the bloody dragon and demons. fitting him into the frames is almost like an afterthought, and his one closeup looks more like a promo portrait than an actual expression of what he's feeling. and yes, i agree with vampmogs as he said in another thread... the faces are cold.

there's something off for me about lynch's attitude that is rubbing me all sorts of wrong. and i wasn't blown away by his writing either. his directional choices--what he chooses to focus on when he's blogging, stuff that he gets personally excited about (a lot about his sillier invented characters), imo, is stuff that is entirely missing the flavor of the show.

i'm so bummed about this so far. i could completely change my mind when i finally get to read it. i HOPE i change my mind. i HOPE i'm completely wrong. in the right hands this could have been a billion times better than btvs season 8. so far, i'm not feeling it.

i have hopes for a angel/connor arc left. that's about it.

Wolfie Gilmore

04-10-07, 12:27 PM

Spoiler for off topic reply to something...

smile time on its own was on shaky ground for ats--it was pretty much saved by the fact that w&h was making angel into a puppet metaphorically (or they thought they were--angel used that against them). that's the only ground it stands on.

I very strongly disagree with that! Smile Time is probably one of my favourite episodes of Angel, and aside from a couple (Soul Purpose, Damage) one of the few I genuinely loved in season 5. The way it subverts the image of the big swishy hero, the way it pricks any pompous notions Angel might have of himself, or people might expect of a hero...genius. It works, for me, as a companion piece to Soul Purpose - the hero forced into a helpless position, a position that forces him to show and feel humility...and then clawing his way back...the moment when he vamps out, showing he's more than just a puppet. It reminds me a little of Helpless in season 3 of Buffy. Only much, much funnier. I'm gonna tear you a new puppethole, bitch!

Sidebar, ever noticed that calling someone "bitch" on a Joss show is a surefire way to get your ass kicked? Witness warren calling Buffy bitch (say goodnight bitch) or the ghost calling Cordy bitch, or the puppet calling Angel bitch...Joss, waging a one man war on that word! Or showing how to reclaim it.

Retro-canonising does seem a dodgy tactic, as it makes the idea of canon seem a bit shaky - as if they can't decide what's real and what isn't.

So, who are the people we thought were Gwen etc? I'm confused.

sueworld

04-10-07, 02:02 PM

why do i not think that was joss' idea? especially since lynch seemed really excited about it--and he seems most excited by his ideas rather than joss' (whose input feels utterly lost here--so far i haven't seen his fingerprint on anything

Strangely enough I get the impression that it was Joss's idea. It would fit in with the 'fairy tale vibe' that he seems to be pushing in the season 8 comics.

I'm resevering my judgment on the Dragon until I've at least read a few issues, as it seems utterly pointless to do otherwise. Images can be so misleading sometimes, and so I need to get a handle on the story and dialog first.

KingofCretins

04-10-07, 03:56 PM

I'm not worried about Lynch and retconning based on Shadow Puppets. The reason? Shadow Puppets and Asylum are *not* canon. The only IDW books that will be part of the Buffyverse canon are "After the Fall".

I approve of the dragon, tentatively, the way I approve of Giant Dawn. It's just great to do the stuff you can't do on TV, and a dragon as a character is one. I like dragon myths that treat them as being very sentient, very intelligent creatures, and if this one is being written that way, I think it would be neat.

BAF

04-10-07, 04:42 PM

That explains some of the rumors of why someone who looks like Gwen and Connor and his gang.

I do hope they bring in the Spike: Asylum and Shadow Puppets gang! I'm not crazy about Beta George - but if they could bring Beck!! Woohoo! Or even Tok! But that would also bring Lorne back!

continued from quote above about the last issue of Spike: Shadow Puppets -

If you are not reading Shadow Puppets a quick run-down of what he is talking about:

WARNING: Spike: Shadow Puppets Issue #4 Spoilers!!

Spike, Lorne, Tok, Beck and Beta George are trying to keep Smile Time from taking over the world. Smile Time fights back by looking into Spike's file from W&H and pulls out puppets from the A-Team: 2 Gunns - Pre-W&H Gunn and Post-W&H, 3 Wesleys - "Classis Wesley", "Spoiler Wesley" and "New Wesley", a puppet who is half Illyria and half Fred, Cordy and Connor puppets, and a Drusilla puppet. All headed by a Angelus puppet - NOT Angel. These puppets fight Spike to distract him from getting to Smile Times secret weapon Dicky the Duck. LOLOL!! However, Spike learns a valuable lesson - finally: "He is a People who Bloody damn well needs People". While he's tied up with the puppet gang, Tok, Beck, Beta George and Lorne all playing their key postions on "Team Spike" defeat Smile Time.

On the way home to LA Lorne talks to someone named "Charlie".

So we may have some "clues" as to what the first arc will be about.

The only way Gunn could survive "you have about 20 minutes left" (Illyria) is for one of the Fang Gang to bite him - or he was bitten by one of the Vampires he fought. But could Wesley be back as well??

Brian Lynch has said the only character from Asylum and Shadow Puppets that will be appearing in After The Fall is Betta George and it was Joss who requested it because he really liked the character.Beck and Tok! will not be appearing.Brian was actually saying yesterday over at the IDW board about the fact that he really hopes he gets to write those two characters again one day maybe in a one-shot or something down the line because he won't be writing them in After The Fall.

I'm not sure if Betta George will have a big role in After The Fall but he'll be appearing.Also,and I can't remember where,Lynch indicated that Betta George and Spike in After The Fall might not have any knowledge of meeting each other from Asylum/Shadow Puppets continuity.If that's true then Asylum and Shadow Puppets aren't actually being retro canonized really but just bringing a character that Joss liked into the series.

Brian Lynch also addressed this yesterday on the IDW board.

Speculation: This wouldn't normally get a speculation category, but with "Angel: After the Fall" coming out next month, I had to do it. The presence of "Spoiler Wesley" introduces that fact that this--maybe--might take place after "Not Fade Away." If so, Gunn is alive... (REMEMBER everyone, this section is, as the title says, pure speculation). Lorne was talking to a 'Charlie' on the phone, trying to convince him that they should do children shows. If so, it means that Lorne is still hanging with--at least some of--the Fang Gang.

http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=165&start=555

Some light spoilers for Spike:Shadow Puppets #4

YAY! thanks for reading it, I love that you guys put this much thought into it. It makes our hard work seem beyond worth it. Thanks thanks thanks!

And I actually thought about whether or not this was post or pre NOT FADE AWAY, and while it does in fact refer to Wesley's death, what I always thought was these guys are demons, they know stuff we don't. Smile Time could be one step ahead of the game, you know? Demons from hell aren't nuthin' to muck with.

Also, I agree that "Spoiler Wesley" is awful, it's a dark, dark joke...made by demons. I think they'd love yanking out the dead ally of Spike (oooor hinting that he will die to Spike, who is a bit too busy to analyze everything).

Same goes for Cordy and Connor making out: Smile Time is cruel.

So the time frame here is vague.Lynch seems to indicate here I think that Shadow Puppets is set before NFA

ThePoet's<3

05-10-07, 07:44 AM

From what I heard so far only Beta George would be canonized. The others are wishful wantings! (There was a poll once over on Whedonesque about which Spike: Asylum character would you like to see return in Angel: After the Fall. That's where Beck, Tok and Beta George were "hoped" to be canonized.

However, I am glad ot hear that Brian might revisit Beck somewhere down the road... Even the Shadow Puppets #4 implied the gang may get together again... Until then - Spike will be playin Maijong with his next-door-neighbor...

I really don't think people have to worry about too many of the "chicks with breasts" being an issue! (Sorry guys!) Only the "chick fodder" for want of a better descriptor have been "Pimped out with breasts" in Lynch's Spike comics. They are usually the "black hat" ladies or just chicks he wants the reader to be sure are not "important" to the storyline. Tok and Beck had very "slight figures" (Joss' terminology for small boobs). And I think Lynch is very aware that Joss doesn't go in for the "balloon" figure girls. The demon chicks on the cover with Spike - DEMON chicks - i.e. - black hats - fantasy chicks.

And Lynch likes Spike - and he has received much praise from Spike fans about his "writing for Spike" language. When you read his lines for Spike - you "hear" Spike! That's very integral to this character. So - Lynch has a right to his Spike kudos. But I'm sure he will no doubt know he is writing an Angel comic book.

This was from Wiki...
After the Fall will be written by Brian Lynch with supervision by Joss Whedon and is designed as a twelve-issue maxi-series, with stand-alone "specials" published between the story arcs.[2] According to Whedon, the lack of budget constraints allows Angel’s world to expand in ways that were never possible with the television series:

“ It will definitely use Season 6’s proposed stories as inspiration, but it's not exactly Season 6.[4] ”

At certain intervals, the main series will take a break for a month and special one-off or spotlight issues will be published during the interim. The first special will be entitled "First Night", and will be published either after issue five or six of After the Fall.[2] After the Fall is set to introduce Betta George, a fish-like character from Brian Lynch's series Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets, into the series.[5]
On Brian Lynch's myspace blog, he revealed an art panel from the first issue which seems to reveal recurring characters Gwen Raiden and Angel's son Connor along with another character.[6]

That remark from Joss about it not being Season 6 was also reiterated by Scott Allie at the Buffy Season 8 Comic Panel at Dragon*Con in September. Scott said that "IDW jumped the gun a bit calling it 'Angel Season 6'".

Also the "another character" is often talked about being a blond woman - perhaps Harmony or Anne.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=335358&blogID=307040752

Here's the link back to Lynch's myspace with the picture. Scroll down just a bit.

Who does the "blond" look like?? I think Harmony. Especially after she had betrayed Angel in the end of Season 5 - I think she might make it up to him by fighting with his team.

But Nina would make a better guess - a She-Wolf would be a great asset in a fight like this!

I think the appearance of GWEN is going to be GREAT! I always liked her and Angel together!!! After all - she made his heart go "Pitty-pat"!! Not even Buffy could do that!!!!:heart:

Take a look at Angel: After the Fall Issue #3 Covers!

Issue Three Covers (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=81104&postcount=137)

Spoil over here!!

Why is Illyria trying to kill Angel?

Jenni Lou

05-10-07, 07:57 AM

Thanks for the info!

I happened to like Gwen and I think it would be great if they could incorporate her into the story. She did just sort of run off as the end was coming. I would like to see her her return.

I'm really excited for the series. I always like AtS over BtVS and this is such fantastic news! In case I hadn't mentioned it yet... :D

BAF

05-10-07, 09:16 AM

But Nicki would make a better guess - a She-Wolf would be a great asset in a fight like this!

You mean Nina?

I don't think the blonde is her.Doesn't have have the right feel for that character as shown in the image.Nina has no fighting skills and she only has her wolf abilities in wolf form.Plus Angel sent her away in Power Play.If L.A. was put into hell,Nina wouldn't be there.

I think it's more likely to be Anne.Anne can handle herself in a fight,she was in Not Fade Away and it looks like the group is surrounded by a bunch of kids which could be the kids from her shelter.

NileQT87

05-10-07, 12:37 PM

oh, thank you for the 3rd covers. i think i like urru's better in this case. though i don't hate the other (thankfully). but i like the imagery of illyria looking like she's about to kill angel. actually, there's something very angel/connor in "home" about it... the arm raised ready to slash. instead of a knife in connor's leg, there's a sword in angel's jacket. as for the other cover, the dragon's reflection in the byzantine axe actually looks cool here.

i think urru's first cover and the demon-spike covers are the two best. but the issue #1 variant is still my favorite. this third variant would have to be the second best piece of his cover work, by far.

i wonder what's up with the symbols here on the urru cover. one of them looks like the blair witch project symbol. another is an abstract celtic griffin like the one tattooed on angel's back. i think i also see saturn, taurus and the male symbol. well, as for taurus--david is one (may 16). the air date for "becoming, pt. 1" was also in may (may 12)--which was the birth of angelus--the gypsy girl incident was a birthday present. cordelia's birthday is may 22 and she was talking about angel's upcoming birthday in offspring--which granted, aired in november, but cordy's "birthday" episode was aired in january, so season 3 ats does not line up with cordy's birth date (may 22).

so, i'm guessing the taurus is both a reference to david's astrological symbol and in all likelihood, angel's as well. the blair witch symbol on there is a representation of the "microcosmic man"--it seems related to the pentagram. there's also a "?" scythe in there a.k.a. the glottal stop--slayer lore anybody?

the most interesting though is the abstract griffin, however...

Celtic Griffins: An ancient creature embraced by many cultures, the Celtic animal griffin is a symbol of duality. Part eagle, part lion (depending on the region – even part serpent, horse or dog), the meaning of the griffin reflects is dual physical form by presenting a balance of both good and not so good qualities.

The griffin's more likeable qualities include nobility, gentleness, and justice. Depicted on ancient stone tombs, griffins are the guardians and protectors of life, and remain loyal in their protection even in the afterlife. Griffins count nobility, vigilance, virtue and strength among their many positive attributes. The griffin is an incredibly strong symbol, and used only when the mightiest gods' attention needs to be captured, and reserved only when the need is greatest.

Misused, or invoked for selfish reasons, the griffin brings about gluttony, vengeance, ferocity, and violence.

i'm pretty darn sure that's anne, for several reasons:

1) harmony and darla wouldn't be caught [un]dead in outdated long spandex shorts ('90s aerobicise much?), a sports bra and sneakers. also, darla's still dead/ghostly.
2) anne probably would wear something like that, as she's more of the thrift shop and hand-me-downs type.
3) nina might possibly... but the street gang behind them leans me more towards anne.
4) we saw anne in the last episode of ats. it would make gunn's "last day" actually purposeful beyond, 'hey, a familiar face!'.

connor and gwen are probably the two best additions here... and i dear hope they stay on like starring cast members this 'season'.

hmm... i wonder why joss is making btvs season 8 "official", whereas ats' not-so-season-6 is "unofficial" (a.k.a. glorified fanfiction that we get to believe until he tells us what's official or not)? why?

ThePoet's<3

06-10-07, 04:37 AM

You mean Nina?

I don't think the blonde is her.Doesn't have have the right feel for that character as shown in the image.Nina has no fighting skills and she only has her wolf abilities in wolf form.Plus Angel sent her away in Power Play.If L.A. was put into hell,Nina wouldn't be there.

I think it's more likely to be Anne.Anne can handle herself in a fight,she was in Not Fade Away and it looks like the group is surrounded by a bunch of kids which could be the kids from her shelter.

Yes! Thank you BAF - corrected that mistake!

I can see Anne as the blond but I can also see both NINA and Harmony! Nina may have come back to help Angel - and if they want to bring a new love interest into the mix - well they had started it with her. However, I do like Gwen better for that role... But doubtful they will waste precious panel space with romance.

oh, thank you for the 3rd covers. i think i like urru's better in this case. though i don't hate the other (thankfully). but i like the imagery of illyria looking like she's about to kill angel. actually, there's something very angel/connor in "home" about it... the arm raised ready to slash. instead of a knife in connor's leg, there's a sword in angel's jacket. as for the other cover, the dragon's reflection in the byzantine axe actually looks cool here.

i think urru's first cover and the demon-spike covers are the two best. but the issue #1 variant is still my favorite. this third variant would have to be the second best piece of his cover work, by far.

i wonder what's up with the symbols here on the urru cover. one of them looks like the blair witch project symbol. another is an abstract celtic griffin like the one tattooed on angel's back. i think i also see saturn, taurus and the male symbol. well, as for taurus--david is one (may 16). the air date for "becoming, pt. 1" was also in may (may 12)--which was the birth of angelus--the gypsy girl incident was a birthday present. cordelia's birthday is may 22 and she was talking about angel's upcoming birthday in offspring--which granted, aired in november, but cordy's "birthday" episode was aired in january, so season 3 ats does not line up with cordy's birth date (may 22).

so, i'm guessing the taurus is both a reference to david's astrological symbol and in all likelihood, angel's as well. the blair witch symbol on there is a representation of the "microcosmic man"--it seems related to the pentagram. there's also a "?" scythe in there a.k.a. the glottal stop--slayer lore anybody?

the most interesting though is the abstract griffin, however...

i'm pretty darn sure that's anne, for several reasons:

1) harmony and darla wouldn't be caught [un]dead in outdated long spandex shorts ('90s aerobicise much?), a sports bra and sneakers. also, darla's still dead/ghostly.
2) anne probably would wear something like that, as she's more of the thrift shop and hand-me-downs type.
3) nina might possibly... but the street gang behind them leans me more towards anne.
4) we saw anne in the last episode of ats. it would make gunn's "last day" actually purposeful beyond, 'hey, a familiar face!'.

connor and gwen are probably the two best additions here... and i dear hope they stay on like starring cast members this 'season'.

hmm... i wonder why joss is making btvs season 8 "official", whereas ats' not-so-season-6 is "unofficial" (a.k.a. glorified fanfiction that we get to believe until he tells us what's official or not)? why?

WOW Nile! You really analyzed that picture!!! I didn't look that closely!! Also, maybe the Celtic because Angel/Liam was from Ireland. It could just be a shout out to his origins.

I noticed the scythe as well - but it doesn't have the Slayer wooden spike on the end. Not sure if it's related to the Slayer line or not.

In regards to the "Season 6" stuff, I think it just means this is not "Season 6 Angel" - yet? I think because so many people wanted to know "what happened" in the alley the night of the Big Fight that Joss decided to give some answers.

Maybe we'll get Angel Season 6 after this story arc.

KingofCretins

06-10-07, 04:58 AM

ThePoet's<3

06-10-07, 05:08 AM

Yes - that would be correct - it's more of a story arc.

And no Spike: Asylum and Shadow Puppets are not canon - however, Beta George who is a character from both is coming to ATF as a canon character.

BAF

06-10-07, 03:59 PM

But doubtful they will waste precious panel space with romance.

The nature of this story I don't think lends itself to having a romance in it either.

Joss said "After the Fall" isn't "Season 6" mostly because it's relatively short. It is canon, though, just as much as Season 8 is canon. As opposed to "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" which aren't canon.

Season 8 is set up more like a season of a T.V. show.A big season long storyline broken into arcs which are the episodes and a rotating writing team overseen by Joss with Joss himself writing various episodes including the premiere and finale.Joss is excutive producing it like he did the series.

After The Fall is one shorter epic story with one writer overeen by Joss and not broken into smaller arcs.

Season 8 is like a season of T.V. where Angel:After The Fall is like a Angel movie.It's being done sort of like how those DVD movies were going to be done.Joss overseeing the direction of the story with a handpicked person writing/directing it.

NimNams

09-10-07, 02:34 AM

NileQT87

09-10-07, 06:43 AM

i can't help but think there'd be more creative freedom if dark horse had both and that more respect would be given to the fang gang if there were more opportunities for worthy crossovers or the fact that joss seems a whole lot more interested in btvs despite ats having the better unresolved story possibilities and frankly, more depth...

like for example: why does btvs get a season-sized comic (two seasons worth of them!) and ats only gets a movie-sized comic?

maybe if they got greenwalt, minear, etc... to work on the ats comics, we might get better justice for ats.

Enisy

09-10-07, 01:21 PM

Does anyone know how long IDW gets use of the Angelverse characters? In other words, once the ATF series wraps up, is there any chance that some of these faces might start popping up in Buffy season 8?

I was wondering the same thing. My guess is that Joss would technically be able to use the characters freely, but, based on this statement, will not:

Joss Whedon: I won't be using the ancillary characters from "Angel" unless I absolutely think that nobody else can fit this bill. Spike and Angel I will definitely use, but sparingly. But I would do that anyway. You don't want to use it up by having Spike standing around in the background of every frame. He means so much to Buffy, so does Angel, that you want to save them for the big hits.

NileQT87

09-10-07, 02:10 PM

and i agree with the big hits. but there are a lot of characters on ats that deserve as much love as the external ones on btvs... which is where the dark horse problem comes in. it's not just angel and spike. illyria, wesley?, lilah?, etc... these are more ats-centric characters that could use some beautiful writing.

sure, angel and spike will always be important to buffy... but why not big hits for faith? why not big hits for giles?

and frankly, a story where angel is leading the plot appeals to me a slight bit more than one with buffy leading the plot... though i still wish faith: the series was a reality. but an acknowledgment that angel and wesley mean as much to faith as the btvs characters would be refreshing. it's almost like they get snubbed in their involvement with her when she's over on btvs (and she is not treated as well on btvs as she was on ats, imo).

it honestly feels a little bit like they are filling in giles for her relationships with angel and wesley. sure, i love giles, and i am certainly intrigued with where they are taking him (one of my favorite things about the comics), but a little credit to angel and wesley for shaping who she is now would be nice. fact is, she even stated that her only loyalty was to angel.

the w&h thing must be addressed. ignoring it because it took place on the other show (that sometimes feels like it's treated like a bastard child) is like xander's lie not going away. it's just going to bug people until it's addressed full-on. same with the things that went on with faith while she was with the fang gang... who are just as important, or more important to her than the people in the scoobies.

vampmogs

09-10-07, 04:35 PM

The first review of Issue 1# is out and it contains some spoilers so read at your own risk. :)

http://fractalmatter.com/main/?p=745

So LA has actually been sent to Hell? That is weird, I just figured it was an expression when they said it was a hellzone but apparently not! I'm not sure how I feel about demon lords dividing the city up but it could work.

I would have rathered hearing that Lynch wrote Angel the best of all his characters, I'm guessing by others the reviewer means Spike.

I'm very interested in the surprise end, I wonder what it will be? Wild speculations;
Wes is alive
Gunn is a vamp
We see Spike in bed with one of those demon girls from the Issue #2 cover.

Enisy

09-10-07, 05:08 PM

Didn't Brian Lynch say on MySpace or an interview that he thought Gunn becoming a vampire would be over-the-top, after reading such speculations on forums? I seem to recall reading something like that.

As for your other guesses...

Lynch said the cover with Spike and the demon girls was supposed to be misleading, so I doubt he'll go there. Besides, how much of a "surprise end" would that be, after the cover?

I could see Wes being alive, though. *crosses fingers*

ThePoet's<3

10-10-07, 04:25 AM

Yes, I do believe you're right Enisy. But it would make a great story!!

And yes - my thought is the cover for Spike and the Demonettes is supposed to be misleading or a "dream" sequence. But I hope you are right about Wesley.

vampmogs

10-10-07, 05:03 AM

Didn't Brian Lynch say on MySpace or an interview that he thought Gunn becoming a vampire would be over-the-top, after reading such speculations on forums? I seem to recall reading something like that.

I thought he said that some fan reaction was over the top? I remember him quoting fans who said they would kill themselves if Gunn turned into a vampire and was laughing about it? He probably won't but it was what Joss had originally intended according to Acker.

As for your other guesses...

Lynch said the cover with Spike and the demon girls was supposed to be misleading, so I doubt he'll go there. Besides, how much of a "surprise end" would that be, after the cover?

I could see Wes being alive, though. *crosses fingers*[/QUOTE]

Well in the interview it did say that the front cover for Issue #2 would give it away, and seeing that this is at least one front cover for Issue #2 I thought that may be some clue. Or perhaps it is just Spike appearing at the end, which wouldn't be much of a surprise.

KingofCretins

10-10-07, 04:20 PM

I would love it if the cover of Issue #2 and the reveal at the end of Issue #1 are related. Spike having found a niche in Hell-A as a big demonic pimp to buxom demon women would just overjoy my anti-Spuffy sensibilities :) And, of course, it sets up broader implications, such as the possible that the big bad is, uh, Big Bad?

sueworld

10-10-07, 04:45 PM

Well trying to ignore your obvious dislike of his character my guess on it would be this...For a start unless Brian has lost some brain cells between Shadow puppets and ATF I don't think we're going to get him covering hackneyed old plots like 'Oh dear Spike's really turned turned bad after all'.

I do think though we will see that maybe Spike is one of these overlords and that initially we as an audience are meant to think he's on Wolfram and Harts side, but it turns out he's actually working under cover for Angel.

Usually Brian's writing is more multi layered then that judging by his past work, so unless Joss manages to bugger things up, or Brian's having a 'funny half hour' I expect to see something a wee bit more satisfying and complex.

vampmogs

10-10-07, 04:49 PM

Although I doubt it would happen, what is more complex than a person who is essentially supposed to be good deciding he'll turn his back on the good and go bad? It was very complex with Faith, why is it suddenly not complex with Spike? Perhaps Spike feels that there is no hope of saving LA so he gives up on trying to redeem himself and takes a darker route? I think it'd potentially have very complex repercussions. Again, I believe it is a long shot this will ever happen but don't doubt for a second it couldn't be complex.

Oh and not liking Spuffy or hoping Spike is the big bad does not mean someone automatically dislikes Spike ;)

KingofCretins

10-10-07, 04:52 PM

As per usual, dislike of the 'ship is being taken for dislike of the character.

Spike being undercover is plausible, or just being his, at best, chaotic neutral self is most likely. Maybe the city going to hell made him bitter at the incredible stupidity of the plan and made him crap out on redemption (which would be in character). Not likely that he truly has gone bad, but it would be perfectly authentic for him to go off the reservation when faced with adversity).

My anti-Spuffy comment is basically just to exude in the kick in the shins an ambivalent Spike dallying with a harem of demon women (in character) would have on the belief in twu wuv with Buffy.

I get the feeling that you are summarily pre-judging any developments along these lines as 'buggering things up'. Remember, nothing is going to happen in "After the Fall" that doesn't have Joss' tacit or direct approval.

Enisy

10-10-07, 04:53 PM

sueworld

10-10-07, 04:57 PM

Firstly it's not just that post, in general I often see the Spike 'digs'. It's not hard to spot them scattered around this forum! :roll:

Secondly If you've actually read Shadow Puppets and Spike Asylum you'd see that Brian is a Spike fan. And of 'Spike as a champion' version too', not just 'evil Spike stuck in amber as if season 7 had never happened version', either. :lol:

nothing is going to happen in "After the Fall" that doesn't have Joss' tacit or direct approval. Yeah, and thats what worries me...

vampmogs

10-10-07, 04:59 PM

I agree with sueworld. They tried the "Spike is evil, oh noez" misdirection in Season 7 of Buffy and Season 5 of Angel, to a largely apathetic response, so I doubt they'll go there a third time. Besides, I wouldn't have high hopes for anti-Spuffy stuff in a span of just 12 issues, especially since Joss has practically confirmed that there will be Spike/Buffy interaction in BtvS S8, and that he "has plans for Spike" there.

I think what would be interesting is if Spike completely gave up on helping people, after along with the others he screwed up everything in LA so royally. Perhaps he feels it isn't worh it? Perhaps he feels there is no chance of fixing it? Anything is possible, I suspect all of the characters are going to have trouble dealing with what has happened to LA, and how they are partly responsible for it. From the preview pages we've already seen as much.

I don't think KingofCretins meant that Joss would specifically include anti-Spuffy remarks in the issues, just that having him hook up with someone new would undermine what some believe, that Spike would never go for anyone other than Buffy. The writers spoke of Spike having sex with Harmony and the uproar it caused and that was even with Harmony screaming that he didn't want her but his "slayer whore." I don't think having Spike get with someone else would ever screw up the plan to have Spike make an appearence in Buffy season eight, anymore than Angel's relationship troubles with Cordy or Nina stopped him from going over onto Btvs countless times. Besides both Angel and Spike are being planned for s8.

sueworld

10-10-07, 05:03 PM

Enisy

10-10-07, 05:05 PM

Oh I think having Spike paired up with someone is a strong possibility. Not sure if it will border on romance, but we'll see.

Guys, "Angel: After the Fall" will only span 12 issues with a few extras. How can they possibly introduce a Spike-centric ship one mere year after Buffy, for whom he left his century-long girlfriend and declared to be "the one", especially since his relationship with her is still unresolved? No way is Joss going there.

KingofCretins

10-10-07, 05:08 PM

As those are not canon I don't know if that has informative value. Some of the best Spike fans amongst writers wrote him best as a bad guy -- hey Doug, how ya doin? -- because they see it as an integral part of the Spike character.

Also, when, ever, did they go for Spike as a bad guy in Angel Season 5? In Season 7, they teased it for the end of one episode and three acts of another, after which the barest possibility that he could be turned bad was teased, teased, teased, and then just ignored after one more tease *during the season finale*. They didn't try it at all in any serious way, so please don't make a case that they started and abandoned it based on viewer response, as there's no basis.

Spike wouldn't need to be 'stuck in amber' to wander over to the dark side for at least a while -- one of the central elements in Angel's and Spike's (by extension) stories since alllllll the way back in Season 3 of Buffy has been whether or not the soul makes them immune from corruption, whether it is a metaphysical barrier to doing evil.

Joss said that Spike would appear in season 8 at some point, he did *not* indicate that the interaction would be 'shippy (as indicated by the /) nor that 'shippiness was still a part of his plans for the characters. In fact, it would be pretty asinine to try to make 'shippiness a core element since Spike will never be a regular issue to issue character in Buffy Season 8 and presumably Season 9. Joss would basically be cutting Buffy's love life out of the storytelling by doing so.

Unless you count sex with another girl as anti-Spuffy, but um, he slept with Harmony in Season 5 of Angel and I didn't really take offense to that.

I would say that the most of folk, in general, don't buy it when someone talks out of one side of the mouth about true love with someone and then does who-knows-what with the other side of their mouth to an ex. And, in fact, there *was* Spuffy backlash against that scene (referenced in the commentary) for exactly that reason.

for whom he left his century-long girlfriend and declared to be "the one"

ummm... Drusilla dumped him. And left on her own initiative in "Crush". Spike never dumped her.

sueworld

10-10-07, 05:09 PM

vampmogs

10-10-07, 05:11 PM

Oh I think having Spike paired up with someone is a strong possibility. Not sure if it will border on romance, but we'll see.

Be god to see that happen to Angel too. May be Nina will enter the picture somehow. After all in this 'war' having a Werewolf along will be 'handy'.

I really don't like Nina and really didn't see the point of that relationship so I'd hope for someone else personally. The most akward thing I have ever seen in both Btvs and Ats was when Nina asked Angel if he was thinking about "his little Roman friend" after having sex with him. She asks this in case he has become perfectly happy. It feels weird Nina is perfectly ok with this, especially after showing she is genuingly interested in Angel and it wasn't just physical attraction. Though I agree it'd be nice to see both Angel and Spike find other people, even if we don't delve into it a great deal. I don't think Nina will make an appearence unless she didn't skip town like Angel planned for her to do. Somehow I doubt they will be many flights to LA? :lol:

Guys, "Angel: After the Fall" will only span 12 issues with a few extras. How can they possibly introduce a Spike-centric ship one mere year after Buffy, for whom he left his century-long girlfriend and declared to be "the one", especially since his relationship with her is still unresolved? No way is Joss going there.

I think the same thing would have been said for Spike banging Harmony not to long ago but it happened ;) I'm not saying Spike cared for an instant about Harmony but I doubt any Spuffy fans or fans in general would have betted on Joss having that happen and it did, pretty early on after Btvs had ended. The idea of him having sex with someone isn't out of the question, and IMO the beginning of a relationship with someone isn't either.

KingofCretins

10-10-07, 05:15 PM

Yeah, and thats what worries me...

Yeah... Joss has always been pretty clueless when it comes to the Buffyverse.

The idea of him having sex with someone isn't out of the question, and IMO the beginning of a relationship with someone isn't either.

Definitely not. He and Fred certainly seemed taken by each other early in Season 5... I've still never been sure if there was an intention there that was overruled at some point.

sueworld

10-10-07, 05:17 PM

For a start a lot of Spike fans hated the Harmony scene mainly due to the fact it seemed incredibly 'crude' in many respects, and at that point in Spike's mental development weirdly out of character.

Even David Fury is on recored as saying he was against shooting that scene in that manner, and it wasn't his idea, but Joss's. Joss said Spike would have been desperate for 'release' after all that time being a ghost, but as per with Joss, he misread the situation as the fans found it objectionable.

And as to Spike or Angel appearing and having any resolution on the whole shipping debate.Well I've said it before I'll believe it when I see it.

Joss has always been a coward when dealing with that side of Buffy's nature, and so I think it highly unlikely that he'll do any differently in these comics that he did in the series, and thats hold everything in limbo out of fearing of favor one relationship over another.

vampmogs

10-10-07, 05:19 PM

Definitely not. He and Fred certainly seemed taken by each other early in Season 5... I've still never been sure if there was an intention there that was overruled at some point.

Amy states in one of the commentaries that James was convinced that they were planning on having the two characters hook up. It did seem like that way for a while, I actually prefer that better to Fred's acknowledgement to Angel that she knows Spike is just 'playing with her' so that she'll help him. In no way saying that Fred is some little helpless girl who can't tell the difference anymore, she clearly knew she was being played or at least believed so, just that I'd find it kind of a bad trait in Spike's character.

Enisy

10-10-07, 05:20 PM

Joss said that Spike would appear in season 8 at some point, he did *not* indicate that the interaction would be 'shippy (as indicated by the /) nor that 'shippiness was still a part of his plans for the characters. In fact, it would be pretty asinine to try to make 'shippiness a core element since Spike will never be a regular issue to issue character in Buffy Season 8 and presumably Season 9. Joss would basically be cutting Buffy's love life out of the storytelling by doing so.

He said he won't use Spike up because "he means so much to Buffy", which indicates, to me, that there will be Spike/Buffy interaction. They had shippy Angel/Buffy interaction from S4 to S7, even though Buffy was involved with other people at the time.

I would say that the most of folk, in general, don't buy it when someone talks out of one side of the mouth about true love with someone and then does who-knows-what with the other side of their mouth to an ex.

Spike was sleeping with Harmony in S5 of Buffy, too, despite being in love with Buffy. I don't see the biggie. He had just become corporeal, he hadn't had sex in over a year, and hanging around Angel had kicked off his insecurities that he didn't have a chance with Buffy, so I really didn't take offense to that.

The idea of him having sex with someone isn't out of the question, and IMO the beginning of a relationship with someone isn't either.

Having sex? No. Starting a relationship? Yes. There would be absolutely no point, since "After the Fall" will only last 12 issues, and since Joss plans on stringing Spike/Buffy (and Angel/Buffy) fans along in S8 of Buffy.

Well Brian did say that one of the women depicted on the issue two cover would someone very special in his life there.

He also hinted that she won't be special in a romantic way.

KingofCretins

10-10-07, 05:20 PM

Fury's commentary indicates only alarm at how the scene, as shot, looked -- he didn't voice any direct opposition to the idea that Spike would have sex with her, just that it looked like he was pillaging her. He referred to fan disappointment at the sex at all, not his own. Joss is right -- it's the perfectly obvious Spike thing to do, they just needed a reshoot so it made it more clear that he hadn't just pounced her and dragged her into an office.

vampmogs

10-10-07, 05:22 PM

For a start a lot of Spike fans hated the Harmony scene mainly due to the fact it seemed incredibly 'crude' in many respects, and at that point in Spike's mental development weirdly out of character.

I don't find it heaps OOC. I think it fits in with his character quite well, I'd find it believeable if we found out Spike had, had a few one night stands with girls after a little strip club action during his time in LA.

Joss has always been a coward when dealing with that side of Buffy's nature, and so I think it highly unlikely that he'll do any differently in these comics that he did in the series, and thats hold everything in limbo out of fearing of favor one relationship over another.

Actually Joss has been quite clear in saying he hasn't done this because he'd upset half the fanbase, which it would. So really you should be happy that this isn't one of those times when Joss hasn't "as per" read the situation wrong.

KingofCretins

10-10-07, 05:27 PM

It's almost a shame... I think Fred could have been the same type of grounding influence on Spike that Cordy became on Angel. A humbling influence. But, you're right, they abandoned it in the right way, by making it something Fred realized was a con.

Enisy, as a control question, how would you have taken Buffy hooking up with whozit from "Older and Far Away", or Riley in "As You Were" (single or married, if it makes a difference)? Would that have been as easy to take in stride from a Spuffy standpoint? Or is Spike the only one who gets carte blanche while still preserving the depth of feeling for Buffy?

Having sex? No. Starting a relationship? Yes. There would be absolutely no point, since "After the Fall" will only last 12 issues, and since Joss plans on stringing Spike/Buffy (and Angel/Buffy) fans along in S8 of Buffy.

People do start relationships in movies and such that we don't see carried through to their conclusion. Ask Simon and Kaylee. As for the stringalong... Joss has nowhere said that Angel or Spike's guest appearances are going to be the 'ship, the whole 'ship, and nothing but the 'ship purposes.

sueworld

10-10-07, 05:31 PM

Actually Joss has been quite clear in saying he hasn't done this because he'd upset half the fanbase, which it would. So really you should be happy that this isn't one of those times when Joss hasn't "as per" read the situation wrong.

Well maybe he should have the guts to do so. Then it would shut one half of the fandom up, be that Spuffies, Bangels, or any other ship that thinks they have a fighting chance with the women! :lol:

Or maybe 'Blondie bear' should go of with Angel and have their own type of 'fun'. Joss did say he never thought the pairing to bring the best out of Angel would turn out to be another blond. *g*

vampmogs

10-10-07, 05:33 PM

It's almost a shame... I think Fred could have been the same type of grounding influence on Spike that Cordy became on Angel. A humbling influence. But, you're right, they abandoned it in the right way, by making it something Fred realized was a con.

I agree. Though it wouldn't have ever been possible. They'd been building up the Wes thing from s3, for Fred to get with Spike and for it to last wouldn't have felt "right" in TV land. If the relationship was to happen the Wesley/Fred relationship had to have some pay off, so in that repsect Spike would have had to been the Knox in this relationship. I also think it would have had to have been a relationship that would have taken a while to have begun. It wouldn't have felt organic for Spike to immediatly like someone else, seeing that Btvs s7's finale took place only 16 days before s5 of Ats began.

People do start relationships in movies and such that we don't see carried through to their conclusion. Ask Simon and Kaylee. As for the stringalong... Joss has nowhere said that Angel or Spike's guest appearances are going to be the 'ship, the whole 'ship, and nothing but the 'ship purposes.

Besides, how would Spike be getting in a relationship that could only start to begin be any less pointless than the Angel/Nina relationship? I agree that, that was pointless but that also stems from the fact I don't see why Angel would have fallen for Nina other than the superficial fact she was also a blonde, but regardless the writers decided to do it. Why would it be so out of question for a similair type of relationship to start with Spike and a other?

Well maybe he should have the guts to do so. Then it would shut one half of the fandom up, be that Spuffies, Bangels, or any other ship that thinks they have a fighting chance with the women!

I think Joss wants to do everything but shut up half the fandom. As a creator he wants to keep this fandom alive, and not shut up half the fandom by giving something a clear cut answer. By giving them hope he gives them insentive to keep watching (or reading ;) ) to find out. Personally, I don't like Spuffy but if it was the one he chose I'd keep watching, but some hardcore shippers wouldn't.

Enisy

10-10-07, 05:37 PM

Enisy, as a control question, how would you have taken Buffy hooking up with whozit from "Older and Far Away", or Riley in "As You Were" (single or married, if it makes a difference)? Would that have been as easy to take in stride from a Spuffy standpoint? Or is Spike the only one who gets carte blanche while still preserving the depth of feeling for Buffy?

She went on a date with Wood in Season 7, and that didn't bother me either. It was obvious Spike was "the person in her life" in spite of it, by the way she ran to check on him before she even thought of Wood -- something that even Wood picked up on. Likewise, Spike may have slept with Harmony, but she still realized "he only wants his Slayer whore".

People do start relationships in movies and such that we don't see carried through to their conclusion. Ask Simon and Kaylee. As for the stringalong... Joss has nowhere said that Angel or Spike's guest appearances are going to be the 'ship, the whole 'ship, and nothing but the 'ship purposes.

No, but he has clearly hinted that there will be shippiness, so I doubt we'll be seeing any Spike ships in "After the Fall", unless Joss views them as a way to hold off Spike/Buffy (and Angel/Buffy, via Angel/Nina or something) until the end of the series.

I'm popping off to study for my finals now, guys. (Just so you don't think I'm shunning you, or that my unresponsiveness stems from a lack of arguments. :p) TTFN.

NileQT87

10-10-07, 05:38 PM

hey, i was bummed when angel didn't end up with fred... instead we got cordelia. comparing the two in pylea--one accepted his demon side and comforted him while he went through a hard inner struggle and the other called him a "dumbass" for saving groo. wow. lol. priorities.

it had nothing to do with bangel, because i would have been ecstatic about both dangel and frangel (love the kiss--especially angel's reaction of believing it). but yeah, fred and wesley were awesome. but yeah, they did seem to be toying with spike and fred. i still say bring back darla (she can never be brought back too many times, imo) and you could have an angel/darla/connor ending.

it's not just about bangel for me--though i certainly would be for that before a spuffy ending. and let's not forget that every part of the prophecies in the scrolls of aberjian have only ever referred to angel, darla and connor. spike has never been affected by the other parts of the scrolls of aberjian, which happen to include more than just the shanshu. and signing away a prophecy? sounds like a test to me--à la "the trial".

don't forget angel is also going to be in btvs season 8! not just spike. imo, angel has reasons other than buffy to be there (faith and giles). angel actually would have far more of a point in a crossover than spike would.

as for andrew--do we really even know if he's in touch with buffy? all that has been proven is that he's in touch with giles... who certainly has his own reasons to hate angel and spike. he has already been proven a liar over the rome incident--to which buffy is actually clueless about why andrew thought setting up a faux-buffy slayer with the immortal was funny in regards to angel and spike. buffy was clearly shown to be completely clueless about what andrew found funny about it and the entire incident. buffy is NOT in the loop with giles and andrew, imo.

vampmogs

10-10-07, 05:45 PM

She went on a date with Wood in Season 7, and that didn't bother me either. It was obvious Spike was "the person in her life" in spite of it, by the way she ran to check on him before she even thought of Wood -- something that even Wood picked up on. Likewise, Spike may have slept with Harmony, but she still realized "he only wants his Slayer whore".

I can't help but think the fan reaction would have been different though and far more extreme, if she had slept with Riley when he came back. A lot of people would be wondering if Spike was simply someone she passed the time with since Riley had left. The thing with the Ruffy relationship was that it left with both characters wanting more, and Buffy being more emotionally invested in the relationship than ever before. I think a lot of fans whatever their shipping preferences would believe to some extent that if she had slept with Riley again, it would have completely spat on any hopes for Spuffy. Even Spike believed it was a possibility, "Shouldn't you be off snogging the solider boy?" and believes after he is gone that she has just come to him for a bit of "cold comfort." Really it was a pretty big possibility that Buffy would have wanted him if she could have, she was seriously flirting with him and wanted to explain to Riley that she tried to catch him.

In After the Fall I think it is a possibility that both Spike or Angel could find new interets. I don't believe that their upcoming appearences, whenever they will be, in the season eight comics means this will not happen. Angel has appeared in Btvs even when Buffy had a new boyfriend and again when she was tied with Spike in 'Chosen.' Joss did this because he believed he needed to, the same could be said for season eight. He needs them back but this doesn't mean he isn't going to stop either Angel or Spike a new love interest anymore than he'd stopping any new possible love interest for Buffy this season (including Xander) because her two vamps will make an appearence somewhere down the line.

as for andrew--do we really even know if he's in touch with buffy? all that has been proven is that he's in touch with giles... who certainly has his own reasons to hate angel and spike. he has already been proven a liar over the rome incident--to which buffy is actually clueless about why andrew thought setting up a faux-buffy slayer with the immortal was funny in regards to angel and spike. buffy was clearly shown to be completely clueless about what andrew found funny about it and the entire incident. buffy is NOT in the loop with giles and andrew, imo.

Andrew is in touch with Xander who is part of Buffy’s operation so it is possible he has spoken to Buffy on occasion. Even if he hasn’t spoken to her directly, Xander probably directly gives her orders to Andrew.

NileQT87

10-10-07, 05:53 PM

which brings up the lie and the fact that xander also hates angel and spike.

still no proof that buffy said any such thing. in fact, she proves in season 8 to be completely clueless of all the faux-buffies and andrew's jokes.

vampmogs

10-10-07, 06:04 PM

which brings up the lie and the fact that xander also hates angel and spike.

I'm not sure Xander would be going behind Buffy's back here to keep this a secret from her. Xander would know little about Wolfram and Hart, only what Giles had told him. And Giles seems to be in little contact with both Xander and Buffy. If Xander truly wanted to show Buffy that Angel and Spike were untrustworthy he would have went straight to her with the information to show her that they've changed sides.

KingofCretins

10-10-07, 06:22 PM

I'm not sure Xander would be going behind Buffy's back here to keep this a secret from her. Xander would know little about Wolfram and Hart, only what Giles had told him. And Giles seems to be in little contact with both Xander and Buffy. If Xander truly wanted to show Buffy that Angel and Spike were untrustworthy he would have went straight to her with the information to show her that they've changed sides.

Of course he wouldn't. But there are two factors at work here. First, is that Xander is Always Wrong ©®™ and, second, that the contextual evidence doesn't get very far in this particular debate.

For instance, we know in canon that Xander and Andrew are in contact and that Xander has authority over Andrew's personnel decisions and logistics. We also know in canon that Xander is at least on some level obliged or in the habit of keeping Buffy informed of these decisions. So when we see Andrew and his small army in "Damage", we know from Season 8 if nothing else that we're not seeing someone who could arranged this show of force on his own authority, and an organization in which it would be almost impossible to do something on that scale with Buffy's knowledge and consent.

NileQT87

10-10-07, 08:43 PM

KingofCretins

10-10-07, 09:00 PM

or...

giles' knowledge and consent... perhaps speaking for buffy. remember, giles IS the council. the old council had a history of thinking the slayers worked for them.

judging by giles' use of faith here, he's not above using slayers... and in particular, he's not above using faith for wetworks. having faith take out a human being--in fact, another slayer... doesn't that strike you as being a bit... quentin travers-like?

as for xander... koc, your believe that xander is always RIGHT is just as skewed as thinking he's always wrong. he's also a flawed human being, and contextual evidence proves that he doesn't always have a clear mind when it comes to who he is in love with or when it comes to vampires. frankly, i don't think operation andrew ever went through xander, though it wouldn't have made the decision any less anti-angel/spike.

you've completely chosen to ignore the fact that buffy pretty much proved how out of the loop she was concerning what andrew was doing.

It's also canon at this point that Giles is *not* in close contact with even Buffy and Xander in general -- they refer to it in 8.06. And what contact they have with him doesn't suggest that he is where orders get handed down from; the BHC is.

What I'm still seeing is a pattern of altering multiple characters personalities and motives in an effort to make one otherwise indisputable fact untrue. Xander has had beef with Angel before (beef with Spike is irrelevant, nobody knew about him), but he has also fought beside him and defended him as well. And when he did oppose Angel, he always did so himself. There is *zero* in Xander's history to support the conclusion that he would abuse his new authority to whip together some vast, literally international plot to make Angel think Buffy didn't trust him for no discernible benefit whatsoever. I mean *nothing*.

you've completely chosen to ignore the fact that buffy pretty much proved how out of the loop she was concerning what andrew was doing.

Based on one narrative remark that she didn't know why the Immortal thing was funny? Sigh. How does it follow from that that she some sort of frequent victim of deception by her own personnel on the subject of Angel? It's not like we have any reason to think Buffy doesn't know about the Immortal generally, and why, generally, placing a decoy with him made sense -- I can think of plenty of reasons. The only thing she doesn't seem to know is the Immortal's own history with Angel and Spike. But, funny thing -- maybe Andrew thought of that as a way to rub it in the faces of *the guy's that aren't on their side anymore*.

Logically, the rebuttible presumption must be that "all canon plot developments are true until contradicted in canon." Nobody questioned that Buffy was in Rome and dating the Immortal, after all, until Season 8 dispelled it. Nobody questioned Xander in Africa or Willow and Kennedy in Rio. Reason? We have no reason to just *assume* that Joss and the writers are going to *lie* to us. That should obviously govern as well in the event of Andrew saying Buffy and the scoobies didn't trust Angel as of "Damage". It was given to us in canon, and hasn't been contradicted. There is simply no justifiable reason to assume it's fake for no reason other than preference.

And, I have to reiterate, if it's untrue, it served no purpose in the story and wouldn't have been included anyway without later being revealed false.

ThePoet's<3

11-10-07, 06:56 AM

Well Brian did say that one of the women depicted on the issue two cover would someone very special in his life there.

So somethings going to happen. As to whether thats anyhting romantic is anyones guess.
That's interesting! Hadn't heard that tidbit!! Wonder who she could be? Someone from Angel or someone he meets in ATF?? It will need to be quick!!

I don't took for any 'Shippy stuff in ATF. I'm hoping they do use some of the panels to "focus" the two series - ATF and S8. It would just be a nice thing to do for the fans who are being loyal to the two shows - in COMICS! I know some folks who will not read the comics - the end was the end in the shows. So - maybe a "little" loyalty to the "loyal" who are following on in literature?? :) Please?

One thing Brian has made clear is that Joss is calling the shots. He may be writing the story - but if it doesn't "jive" with what Joss wants from Angel and S8 it will not be in the comic. Even - his loyal love of Spike. That's what concerns me. I think if Joss walked in and said, "Brian - Spike must die - write him a good ending" Lynch would do it. He'd hate it - still write about him in non-canon - but he would do it.

So - KoC - Spike could be the new Big Bad. Actually - I see a kind of "Big Love" thing or a "mafia-Supranos" story!! I could see Spike there!! :D

But if you look at both #2 covers and then the #3 covers with Illyria - either we have characters "out of character" or we have them - in new character. Because it looks like Illyria is going to kill Angel! I could see her doing that if she perceives Angel's actions as responsible for Wesley's death. It could be all characters turn against Angel for leading them into this battle they couldn't win. That might be part of what Angel has to deal with after the battle.

vampmogs

11-10-07, 07:19 AM

But if you look at both #2 covers and then the #3 covers with Illyria - either we have characters "out of character" or we have them - in new character. Because it looks like Illyria is going to kill Angel! I could see her doing that if she perceives Angel's actions as responsible for Wesley's death. It could be all characters turn against Angel for leading them into this battle they couldn't win. That might be part of what Angel has to deal with after the battle.

If that was the case I'd pretty much hate the other characters at that moment. What I think a lot of people forget when blaming Angel is that he couldn't have done this without the support of the others, his whole plan relied on asking them "as a team" wether they think it is worth fighting for. Lorne, Gunn, Wes and Spike all raised their hands and Illyria was as eager to join in the fight as well. This is quite possibly the first real massive battle plan out of either Buffy or Angel in which the leader has specifically asked his or her team wether they believe it is worth fighting for and coming to the decision *together.* Like Angel says, he couldn't do this without the others and they all signed on, believed it was a cause worth fighting. If they suddenly all turn on Angel because they lost the battle, then I'll be pretty angry at all of them because as far as I'm concerned Spike, Gunn, Lorne, Illyria and Wes (being dead doesn't get you out of this one my boy!) are equally at fault.

NileQT87

11-10-07, 07:39 AM

and let's not forget the only reason angel joined w&h was because he was desperate to save CONNOR and give him a new life.

blaming angel for joining w&h is stupid. and he turned on w&h, so it's not that he did what they wanted. they THOUGHT that they had snared him, but he used that against them. angel didn't exactly lose his battle--he just brought on a bigger one closer to the source with the senior partners taking off their kid gloves. angel actually cracked the façade of w&h and is getting closer to the source.

why blame angel for doing the right thing? he saved the one person who cared the most about (connor) and he also ruined w&h's day. exactly what he wanted to do.

the only reason illyria would be mad, i'd assume, is that angel knew from the start that sending wesley to cyvus vail was purposefully to fulfill wesley's death wish. mercy, if you will. this would be a reasonable thing for illyria to find out and be angry over. all we really know about illyria's loyalties are that it hates w&h and was experiencing fred's feelings for wesley. wesley was illyria's connection to the world and the one thing illyria was really able to understand.

the other thing is that, while angel got w&h to show themselves more for what they really are, he's now in over his head. but then, his entire gang was in on the whole thing and willingly took a part in bringing down the circle of the black thorn.

vampmogs

11-10-07, 07:49 AM

and let's not forget the only reason angel joined w&h was because he was desperate to save CONNOR and give him a new life.

Yeah I think people need to remember that sometimes. Connor was suicidal, he attempted to kill himself, Cordelia and other innocent people. He was a complete mess and this was the only way Angel could save him, he really had no other choice other than allowing Connor to die.

blaming angel for joining w&h is stupid. and he turned on w&h, so it's not he did what they wanted. they THOUGHT they had snared him, but he used that against them. angel didn't exactly lose his battle--he just brought on a bigger one closer to the source with the senior partner's taking off their kid gloves. angel actually cracked the façade of w&h and is getting closer to the source.

Angel seems to have ticked them off quite a bit which does put a little smile on my face no matter the price of it.

why blame angel for doing the right thing? he saved the one person who cared the most about (connor) and he also ruined w&h's day. exactly what he wanted to do.

Some people are angry at Angel made the decision for all of his team without consulting them. He took the deal without asking any of them wether or not they wanted to work there. I understand why he did that because he had to save Connor but I get why some people are angry. Though funnily enough his team seems to settle into the role far more than he ever does and it is Gunn arguing with him to stay. I'm inclined to think they were all going to take the deal anyway, some could say it was a moot point. However, Angel didn't know this so I can see why people are angry.

the only reason illyria would be mad, i'd assume, is that angel knew from the start that sending wesley to cyvus vail was purposefully to fulfill wesley's death wish. mercy, if you will. this would be a reasonable thing for illyria to find out and be angry over. all we really know about illyria's loyalties are that it hates w&h and was experiencing fred's feelings for wesley. wesley was illyria's connection to the world and the one thing illyria was really able to understand.

Wes had a deathwish? He states in Not Fade Away that he doesn't actually intend to die that night, which I think the writers made sure people knew so that people didn't think it was some kind of welcomed suicidal mission. If Angel believed Wes had a deathwish and acted upon that belief then he severly misread what Wes was feeling.

the other thing is that, while angel got w&h to show themselves more for what they really are, he's now in over his head. but then, his entire gang was in on the whole thing and willingly took a part in bringing down the circle of the black thorn.

I agree it was a group decision and they all played their parts, never were they forced into the decision it was one they all were a part of. So just blaming Angel is silly, all of them are responsible for this.

KingofCretins

11-10-07, 07:50 AM

Had Angel done the right thing, he probably wouldn't be blamed. But, repeatedly and emphatically, it has been shown that it wasn't the right thing.

To recap...

-- Angel makes the decision so that he can save Connor from his past.
-- in so doing he agrees to the purging of the minds of, inferably, basically every recurring character in the Buffyverse about his son's existence and in so doing erases many significant life events from their memories.
-- the decision puts him in a compromised position that takes him out of play as a 'champion' because his company is doing *at least* as much bad as it is good.
-- the decision ostensibly puts him off the reservation with the leading whitehats in the game.
-- created the circumstances necessary to lead to the death of Fred.
-- created the circumstances that led to Drogyn's death.
-- failed to protect Connor, since he was ultimately exposed to his own past anyway.
-- resulted in a city of 8 million being *sent to hell*.
-- apparently concluded with Angel still stuck in Wolfram & Hart, despite his suicidally insane master plan to get out.

Now, the idea that Illyria would hold Angel responsible for Wesley's death makes sense, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what fuels any confrontation between them. Or, maybe some bitterness at being catapulted into a hell dimension as a result of his plan after she had made so many assimilating compromises.

NileQT87

11-10-07, 07:59 AM

about wesley and the death wish... you have two wesleys. the one who is the ex-watcher, who won't believe a lie and puts aside his feelings--this is stiff-upper-lip wesley. then you had the broken-hearted man who wanted to be lied to at his death bed. the wesley that walked into vail's lair saying he didn't intend to die that night was stiff-upper-lip wesley. the man that died was the broken human who wanted the lie that all his watcher sensibilities stood against.

vampmogs

11-10-07, 08:07 AM

It all depends on how you view Angel's mindwipe I think Dan. What surprises me the most and eased my anger about it was when Wes says that his fake memories, allows him to endure the troubles of what really happened. In his belief they were created to endure what had happened, and Wes despite Fred's death was happier for it. And whilst Angel didn't stop Connor from eventually finding him upon Vail's interference he still gave him the life he deserved and turned the suicidal troubled kid into a nice kid who wasn't mentally screwed at all, even with his old memories creeping back in. In that repsect, I wouldn't say it was a failure at all.

As far as Fred's death is concerned, well I really am not going to blame Angel for that. If anyone is going to blamed in the fanggang it would have had to have been Gunn. If we are really going to track that down to Angel's decision to run Wolfram and Hart why not go back further and say she was put in that position because Angel brought her back from Pylea? Where do we stop really?

ThePoet's<3

11-10-07, 08:12 AM

That's why I wonder if the covers are actually a "mislead" or are they "in character"?

Yes, they all joined the crusade but perhaps there is a "twist" or caveat that we don't know about which would make them act in "non-character" ways - thus the strange cover depictions.

KingofCretins

11-10-07, 08:13 AM

vampmogs

11-10-07, 08:34 AM

Gunn can't clear Illyria from customs if he's not compromised, can't be compromised if he's not in Wolfram & Hart, and isn't at Wolfram & Hart if Angel doesn't take their deal. Gunn's bravado about taking the deal regardless of anyone else aside, I *really* don't think there was a deal if it didn't include Angel. There's a but-for chain of causation.

I have to disagree with you there. If we are going to blame Angel for Gunn's foolishness because technically speaking Gunn is there because Angel is there, then we have to blame Buffy for Willow's turn to the darkside. Willow would have never discovered magics if it weren't for Buffy, Buffy says as much in Gingerbread, but this doesn't make her responsible for how Willow chose to use that power. Besides, I'm not entirley convinced Wolfram and Hart wouldn't have accepted any of Angel's team without Angel. They tried to compromise Wes all on his own at the end of season three and obviously felt Gunn was worth compromising given how much time they spent specifically on him.

The very fact that Vail was calling on Connor illustrates the foolishness of accepting their deal -- from the beginning, W&H's agent for the deal, Vail, never intended to respect the condition of Connor's safety and new memory. And you surely won't say that Angel couldn't have foreseen deception on their part.

Well Wolfram and Hart never did decieve Angel on their part, so Angel was right to trust them. I think I would have even trusted Lilah to some extent and Hamilton makes it clear the Senior Partners played no part in this. Why would they risk Angel walking if their deal had been compromised when they wanted him to be there so very much? No one else could have saved Connor like this, Angel had to accept Wolfram and Hart's offer to save his son, wether he wanted to or not.

sueworld

07-11-07, 12:36 PM

The dragon thing... why do i not think that was joss' idea? especially since lynch seemed really excited about it--and he seems most excited by his ideas rather than joss' (whose input feels utterly lost here--so far i haven't seen his fingerprint on anything we've heard). where's the depth coming? demon brothels so far isn't that direction. so far i'm not getting a drama vibe. i'm getting a comic action/bad comedy/chicks with breasts vibe.

Strangely enough I get the impression that it was Joss's idea. It would fit in with the 'fairy tale vibe' that he seems to be pushing in the season 8 comics.

Seems like the Dragon was Joss's idea after all.

New interview with Brian Lynch over here....

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12328

Nostalgia

10-11-07, 10:34 PM

I'm having a hard time finding all of the covers...

could someone post them please? :s

Otherwise.. I feel bad for the ones who aren't excited.. because this whole plan sounds incredible. I love the idea of nothing changing... and everyone bent on trying to survive.

I am also happy with the art.. it's not Buffy.. Angel is much different therefore I don't think Jeanty's drawings would work.. Urru is much darker and paints sceneries rather than characters.. Angel was always about sceneries.

About the Spike situation.. I have to believe having Spike turn to the dark side is very OOC... he has a soul. He wouldn't sign on.. and say "Oh, this isn't worth it.." Spike is more noble than that though.. come on. If the picture is unreliable.. my take is that it's giving more deeper meaning into Spike.. not that he's in a relationship.. perhaps but something I can't put my hands on. Spike is more noble than that though.. come on. As for the new relationship.. this could be possible.. but it has been noted that Spike is more "Buffy ONLY" than Angel is. Spike's always been a romantic.. and while having a new relationship isn't out of the question.. it's more rare than having him out of a new relationship.

I think what was said about Spike and Buffy appearing was definetly shippy... let alone indication that they mean a lot to her already is shippy.. showing that bringing them back would spark some sort of relationship purpose. Define shippy though.. To me.. shippy isn't always "more than friends."

Nostalgia

10-11-07, 10:43 PM

At first I thought of the guy from "Helpless"...

haha

NileQT87

10-11-07, 11:13 PM

angel was NEVER about sceneries. it was about characters. this artist might as well not even bother drawing any faces whatsoever. there's no emotion in any of them. totally the wrong artist.

i wish it was at least drawn somewhat in the style of the show's 'look'. and yes... that means expressive faces and central importance on characters. i'd be happier with no backgrounds if i had to choose one or the other. this artist favors the backgrounds and action only.

and imo, spike isn't the only one out of character. so is angel (again, not his voice).

i'll take jeanty any day.

Nostalgia

10-11-07, 11:23 PM

I'd be interested in others' opinions.. because I find everything spot on so far.. I don't find a problem with Angel's voice either. And I can't say that Spike is out of context with one shot.. we haven't even read the issue yet. I disagree.. Buffy was much more character centric.. yet still anything Joss does is character centric.

I would have to defend it though.. in the situation they are in.. I wouldn't expect characters to be focused on at this point.. I know I personally want to know what's going on around in the aftermath.. and we can deal with relationships and dialogue later. I am much more interested in the actions that are being taken.

sueworld

10-11-07, 11:53 PM

KingofCretins

11-11-07, 01:09 AM

Angel's voice seems pretty solid from the pages they've shown so far. He does have that kind of sarcastic sense of humor about him, and an overall mirth, when he's in a situation where he feels pretty at ease with his purpose. Consider early Season 4, early and middle Season 3, middle season 1, early season 2.

Makes sense that he'd feel that way here -- he's been brought to his irreducibly complex function of protecting who he can where he finds them. That is probably actually pretty relaxing to him on many levels.

Nostalgia

11-11-07, 01:18 AM

King.. what are your feelings on the art?

Everyone else?

KingofCretins

11-11-07, 01:23 AM

Nostalgia

11-11-07, 01:26 AM

I agree.. I'm much more looking for "ACTION.. FIGHTING, BLOODSHED" in After The Fall than where the relationships are hanging as compared to in season 8. I want to see the big battle we never got to see.

sueworld

11-11-07, 03:55 PM

Nicked this from the IDW forum...

I'm not really sure how this happens, but apparently Diamond is already soliciting a new printing of the yet to be released Angel After the Fall #1 from IDW.

The book is due in stores by the end of the month and I guess they've already printed the issue for release. The only thing I can figure is that retailers have been upping there initial orders and have already bought up the initial print run even before it's release.

For those interested in ordering the new printing as well, the order code is: SEP078061.

sherrilina

12-11-07, 04:15 AM

Joss said "After the Fall" isn't "Season 6" mostly because it's relatively short. It is canon, though, just as much as Season 8 is canon. As opposed to "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" which aren't canon.
Blech. I wish they wouldn't have these "canon" comics after the show.....it just doesn't feel like the real deal in these comics, but then we're expected to accept them as canon....and if the kind of silly crap happens in the ATS comics that has happened in the BTVS ones (and the beginning didn't look so good....)....:(

I feel like some things are better left up to the imagination--then everyone's happy....

KingofCretins

12-11-07, 04:16 PM

I don't think he's asking anyone to accept it as canon, anymore than you're asked to accept a brick wall -- it has an objective status that resists opinion.

I'm a little more wary of "After the Fall" than I am of Season 8 because of the scope of the story -- L.A. was sent to hell? That seems mighty huge to deal with without it having already being mentioned in Season 8, in which the whole LA-in-hell thing would have already happened.

Season 8 on the other hand I embrace happily, because it's so much better so far than Seasons 6 or 7 were. Definitely the best Buffy storytelling since Season 5.

Nostalgia

12-11-07, 05:12 PM

I don't understand the "better left dead" concept..

If there's a chance for Joss to write new material for Buffy.. wouldn't you take it anyday and through any type of medium possible..?

alexa

16-11-07, 10:16 AM

Has this been posted yet? It was linked by David Lynch. Pretty cool.. I miss this show :(
Be good when the comic come out next week isn't it? Although I'm not as excited as I was about Buffy, think because I was so pissed when Angel was cancelled.

season6 credits (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=-I5NmhoHlHk&locale=en_IE&persist_locale=1)

ThePoet's<3

17-11-07, 04:16 AM

I'm pretty forgiving of variations in pencilling -- I grew up watching Batman and Superman change appearance based on which book I was reading or who was pencilling. At a glance, I'm not quite as grooving on the pencils for "After the Fall" as I am on Jeanty's pencils in Buffy Season 8, but it's not an accident the guy gets paid to do this. I think his style might lend itself better to big, over-the-top action sequences than Jeanty's does, maybe?
Franco's penciling is over the top for fights and action!! If you want FIGHTS GORE AND BLOODSHED he's dah man!

Blech. I wish they wouldn't have these "canon" comics after the show.....it just doesn't feel like the real deal in these comics, but then we're expected to accept them as canon....and if the kind of silly crap happens in the ATS comics that has happened in the BTVS ones (and the beginning didn't look so good....)....:(

I feel like some things are better left up to the imagination--then everyone's happy....

You know I tend to agree with you here sherrillina... I know once i got over the excitement about buffy Season 8 in comics and it being *canon* -I started back with that anxious anticipation of what all they could do in a comic book - in which there are pretty much no limits. It feels like the same sense of dread I watch LOST with every week - what's gonna happen now?!?

I don't think he's asking anyone to accept it as canon, anymore than you're asked to accept a brick wall -- it has an objective status that resists opinion.

I'm a little more wary of "After the Fall" than I am of Season 8 because of the scope of the story -- L.A. was sent to hell? That seems mighty huge to deal with without it having already being mentioned in Season 8, in which the whole LA-in-hell thing would have already happened.

Season 8 on the other hand I embrace happily, because it's so much better so far than Seasons 6 or 7 were. Definitely the best Buffy storytelling since Season 5.
Wow... Since S5? Hmmm... *shrugs*

Has this been posted yet? It was linked by David Lynch. Pretty cool.. I miss this show
Be good when the comic come out next week isn't it? Although I'm not as excited as I was about Buffy, think because I was so pissed when Angel was cancelled.

season6 credits

That's a great video!!! It just primes my excitement for next week!!! WOOHOO! Finally! Some SPIKE!!!!!!

sherrilina

17-11-07, 10:53 AM

I don't think he's asking anyone to accept it as canon, anymore than you're asked to accept a brick wall -- it has an objective status that resists opinion.
That's like saying someone would be within their rights to claim it's canon that Buffy never slept with Angel, or something like that! :rolleyes": What happened on the show also has an "objective status that resists opinion." Obviously anyone here cares a lot about the show and the Buffyverse, and so it's hard to ignore these comics, just as it's hard to ignore JK's recent interviews after the last HP book and all the crap she's been saying in them, which are now supposedly "canon", etc.

So, if B/X happens in the comics, does that mean people can say it's not canon, if that's you're attitude, and deny it ever happened? What about if Willow dies, etc? I just don't like the idea of what could be happening in these comics that wasn't a regular season of TV....the format of these comics is so different for starters and don't feel at all like the TV show did....

Plus, I like how Buffy ended--it had closure, but still left things open-ended, so you can imagine whatever end you liked! (That's another thing I didn't like about Angel season 5, the things it showed about Buffy....).

I'm a little more wary of "After the Fall" than I am of Season 8 because of the scope of the story -- L.A. was sent to hell? That seems mighty huge to deal with without it having already being mentioned in Season 8, in which the whole LA-in-hell thing would have already happened.
Exactly! It just seems too crazy and weird, though I feel the same way about what I've seen of season 8....I mean, some crazy stuff has happened on the shows but....what's happening here is just so much more extreme and unbelievable...

Season 8 on the other hand I embrace happily, because it's so much better so far than Seasons 6 or 7 were. Definitely the best Buffy storytelling since Season 5.
Well, that's your opinion....:p

sueworld

17-11-07, 12:56 PM

Season 8 on the other hand I embrace happily, because it's so much better so far than Seasons 6 or 7 were. Definitely the best Buffy storytelling since Season 5

One I don't happen to share either.

Folks can shout "It's canon and you must take notice of it" till they're blue in the face I'm afraid. But I doubt everyones is going to see them that way.

Yes, they are canon. But we as 'consumers' can decide whether or not to bother with that, or just remember the shows where they finished on TV.

Sosa lola

20-11-07, 01:31 PM

I believe the whole canon thing is up to fans. I know some fans who believe that canon stopped in the WB years and that the UPN years were mere fanfic. Just like what's happening now with season 8.

I'm just happy we have more Buffy and Angel to discuss, and the Faith arc is really awesome. I also enjoyed some parts in the first arc and loved The Chain, so I'm glad we have S8.

KingofCretins

20-11-07, 01:57 PM

That's like saying someone would be within their rights to claim it's canon that Buffy never slept with Angel, or something like that!

Er... this is in fact exactly the opposite of what I said. I'm saying that what happens in Season 8 and "After the Fall" is identical in weight to Buffy sleeping with Angel in "Surprise", and it's not up to the subjective opinion of the reader to decide if its "really" part of the story.

Maybe my phrasing was bad -- when I say he's not 'asking' you to accept it as canon, my point is that there's no question for you to answer. It *is* canon. There *is* a brick wall. Hoping otherwise can not make it untrue.

I believe the whole canon thing is up to fans. I know some fans who believe that canon stopped in the WB years and that the UPN years were mere fanfic. Just like what's happening now with season 8.

Fans have no role in determining canon, whatsoever. They either want the whole story or they don't.

Fans are perfectly welcome to decide they want to pretend the story ended in "The Gift" or "Chosen" and ignore the canon that follows, but that personal choice does not change the fact that what follows *is* part of the story.

And, yeah, major plot developments in Season 8 and "After the Fall" are "real" for these character, they count. For example... Dawn has turned into a giant. Willow and Kennedy have broken up.

Those are factual and indisputable parts of the history of the Buffyverse, now. It is purely as a courtesy, in my opinion, that those of us following the story will basically talk about these things in spoiler tags, but they are just as "true" for the characters as anything that happened during the televised seasons.

Wolfie Gilmore

20-11-07, 02:04 PM

Does anyone know if this comic's coming out in the UK tomorrow? Or is that just the US? What's the UK release date? Cheers!

Nostalgia

20-11-07, 05:41 PM

It comes out tomorrow!!!?? In the US?!! I thought it's not out until January!

sueworld

20-11-07, 06:24 PM

No, 21st November love. :D

Wolfie Gilmore

20-11-07, 06:43 PM

No, 21st November love. :D

Tomorrow is the 21st isn't it? Is it coming out in the UK tomorrow too, do you know?

Nostalgia

20-11-07, 06:55 PM

Awesome!!! Too bad I have to wait a little.. but I am so pumped.

sueworld

21-11-07, 12:19 AM

I think it's coming out in the UK a few days later, but I'm not totally sure.

sherrilina

21-11-07, 01:14 AM

Er... this is in fact exactly the opposite of what I said. I'm saying that what happens in Season 8 and "After the Fall" is identical in weight to Buffy sleeping with Angel in "Surprise", and it's not up to the subjective opinion of the reader to decide if its "really" part of the story.

Maybe my phrasing was bad -- when I say he's not 'asking' you to accept it as canon, my point is that there's no question for you to answer. It *is* canon. There *is* a brick wall. Hoping otherwise can not make it untrue.
Exactly--which is why I don't like the idea of season 8 personally--I like how it ended, and the fact that the story is continuing in this non-TV, harder to get format is just strange too....

But that's just me....

ThePoet's<3

21-11-07, 04:34 AM

Exactly--which is why I don't like the idea of season 8 personally--I like how it ended, and the fact that the story is continuing in this non-TV, harder to get format is just strange too....

But that's just me....

No - as I said - I completely understand your feelings about Season 8. This places our characters, their storylines, and their futures all "up in the air" again. And it is quite un-nerving! At least when the Season 7 ended - everyone was either in a good place personally - or about to get there! Now we are back into the midst of wondering how things will turn out for our characters.

And the comic medium - if you are not acquainted with it - is very hard to get used too. I have problems with the "disjointed" feeling I get reading them. They don't flow as easily as TV. And I've sat down several times and re-read them because so much time passes between issues.

However - they are canon. And if some folks don't want to go beyond Season 7 to read the comics I think that's just fine - it was a good place to end the series.

Nostalgia

21-11-07, 06:56 AM

I find it unnerving if it's not considered.. Maybe if you're a casual fan.. but I don't see how someone would resist any possible chance at continuing the series.

sherrilina

21-11-07, 07:19 AM

I find it unnerving if it's not considered.. Maybe if you're a casual fan.. but I don't see how someone would resist any possible chance at continuing the series.
Well I could if what you see happening is weird and doesn't fit with the rest of the series in your opinion....which is the case for me!

I mean, if continuing the series meant Willow turned into a cannibal and ate Giles or something, would you want to read it as part of continuing the series? (Extreme example I know, but I'm trying to get a certain point across....).

vampmogs

21-11-07, 07:23 AM

Well I could if what you see happening is weird and doesn't fit with the rest of the series in your opinion....which is the case for me!

I mean, if continuing the series meant Willow turned into a cannibal and ate Giles or something, would you want to read it as part of continuing the series? (Extreme example I know, but I'm trying to get a certain point across....).

I know I would. I may not like it but I'd still consider it a part of the series. If you were to have told people back in s1 of Btvs that Willow was going to become a lesbian, many people would say that is pretty out there too.

I don't really understand why people are so afraid the writers are going to go overboard in the comics, these are the same writers that gave us 7 wondeful years of television and aren't going to suddenly turn crap. It is still Joss Whedon. And nothing dramatically that we have seen thus far is that overboard from what we've seen on the show. As for instance, I've heard some talk about how Willow is flying.. ah she could fly from at least season six, she did so in 'Tough Love' during s5 a little and did so in 'Two to Go' and was said to go 'airborne' in that episode as well, only we didn't get to see it.

KingofCretins

21-11-07, 07:30 AM

And we absolutely would have seen Willow flying in "Two to Go" or "Grave" -- if they'd had the budget to produce it.

Really, that's all that's changed -- the Buffyverse still has the same creative scope as ever, but now it has no creative *limit*. If it can be imagined it can be produced.

sherrilina

21-11-07, 07:41 AM

I know I would. I may not like it but I'd still consider it a part of the series. If you were to have told people back in s1 of Btvs that Willow was going to become a lesbian, many people would say that is pretty out there too.

I don't really understand why people are so afraid the writers are going to go overboard in the comics, these are the same writers that gave us 7 wondeful years of television and aren't going to suddenly turn crap. It is still Joss Whedon. And nothing dramatically that we have seen thus far is that overboard from what we've seen on the show. As for instance, I've heard some talk about how Willow is flying.. ah she could fly from at least season six, she did so in 'Tough Love' during s5 a little and did so in 'Two to Go' and was said to go 'airborne' in that episode as well, only we didn't get to see it.
Well personally I feel that Dawn becoming a giant and Warren not really being dead by just being a skinless being going out with Amy (oh please!) are pretty lame and overboard, just to name a few things....so that would be why I'm afraid of what the writers are going to do in the comics, givem what they've already done.....

vampmogs

21-11-07, 08:00 AM

Well personally I feel that Dawn becoming a giant and Warren not really being dead by just being a skinless being going out with Amy (oh please!) are pretty lame and overboard, just to name a few things....so that would be why I'm afraid of what the writers are going to do in the comics, givem what they've already done.....

I don't really. To me, it makes Amy's anger towards Willow during 'The Killer In Me' make a hell of a lot more sense, than simply being angry at her after a verbal fight on Buffy's doorstep. It makes sense Amy has been watching Willow all this time, it explains why she new about Willow nearly destroying the world, killing Warren and the Potential slayers staying at Buffy's house. Her watching Willow and then saving Warren, becoming romantically involved with him and then both of them coming up with the plan to hurt Willow in 'The Killer In Me' to me, makes it make a lot more sense. It reaks of Warren if you think about it.

The only real reason I could see for anyone to have something against the Amy and Warren relationship based on who is involved, is that they could have never seen it happen in the show. But during s2, s3 and s4 how many people thought Spuffy would ever happen?

And and as far as Dawnie being a giant. Well we've seen dragons, and portals to other worlds. It doesn't really surprise me that giants can exist in the Buffyverse as well. :)

Nostalgia

21-11-07, 08:08 AM

Nostalgia

21-11-07, 08:14 AM

On a side note.. I CANNOT WAIT for this minseries..

I know many aren't very excited compared to season 8.. but let's start counting down! I can't get it for a while.. but it's worth the wait!

vampmogs

21-11-07, 08:16 AM

It's going to be a permanent thing.. and I agree 100% about the Amy clarification. Whether it bores you that she's back or not.. I don't see how it could be "overboard" or "lame." The only argument I see is Joss' screw up.. but I think we can forgive him and move on?

Joss messed up, but he'd messed up plenty with continuity throughout the televised seasons of the show. Anyone using that as an excuse to say why this season is crap, or isn't really canon (not saying you are sherrilina) are just looking for an excuse to diss the season because its in comic IMO.

I can't help but feel people are judging these comics incredibly harder than they would a new season on television, if that is because they had already made up their mind they didn't like the idea before the season even began, or it is because it is all pre-meditated I'm not sure. But I definitly think it is worth considering.

Nostalgia

21-11-07, 08:19 AM

Oh, many have admitted it's pre-meditated.. it's not something be shied away or hushed. It comes down to people just not enjoying the comic medium. And.. I just can't do anything to change peoples' minds or argue a point on that. It comes to personal preference.. I don't think that you (everyone) should criticize if you're not enjoying the experience from the get-go though.

And you cannot dismiss its canon.. No offense.. but.. you just can't... It's real.. and it's up to you whether to follow the series or not.

sherrilina

21-11-07, 08:29 AM

Well there's also the fact that it changes a lot of season 6 and 7, if Willow never actually killed someone....

I can't help but feel people are judging these comics incredibly harder than they would a new season on television, if that is because they had already made up their mind they didn't like the idea before the season even began, or it is because it is all pre-meditated I'm not sure. But I definitly think it is worth considering.
I don't know about that--after hearing you and Dan and others wax lyrical about these comics I got really interested and excited to read them, and def. went into it with an eager mindset....only to be left wondering how people could be so excited and enthusiastic about them, to the point of saying they're better than some of the TV seasons....so I don't think it's premeditated so much as the comics themselves....though it could be the medium itself too I suppose....