8.07 "No Future For You", Part II Discussion Thread

[KingofCretins]

I figured this should get posted, but since we'll be posting a discussion thread in a couple weeks anyway, might as well go ahead and start that. I figure we should just spoiler tag anything until the issue comes out.

The preview has been posted on Dark Horse, a whole six pages. Not all of it is "new" per se, well, you'll see, but it's pretty dang good.

Issue #7 Preview (http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/preview.php?theid=14-663)

On one hand, I'm a bit disappointed to see three pages spent on flashbacks to what we saw on TV, but it is very well drawn by Jeanty, and I like Faith's narration.

LOVE seeing more Willow and Dawn stuff, and that Willow apparently is sticking around for the duration. As a bonus, Renee interacts with someone besides Xander :)

[vampmogs]

Hey thanks for posting this, it is really good!

Yeah it is a bit of a bummer to see three pages of stuff we've already seen before but on the otherhand it offers us more insight into Faith's feelings about the past and it is neat to see old school Buffy in the new high tech realm of season eight. Shows the writers haven't forgotten where the series originated from.

I'm loving Willow sticking around, and it is good to see Buffy has thought about Twilight and is trying to prevent it from doing any harm, still no word if she brought back Voll as a prisoner of war after rescuing Willow. It is also very cool to see Dawn and Willow with more talk on this giant fiasco.

Also, very interesting Faith tosses out her ear peice. Does this mean she has always kind of planned to play this game her way? If so are we thinking Buffy showing up may not be a plan by Giles?

[some spykie ship]

I didn't know you could get previews that way. I'll remember that.

I always assumed that Buffy would show up on her own. I'm more interested in who it is talking to Faith after she chucks out the earpiece, which is a twist in itself. I had her pegged as desperate enough to cooperate with Giles.

[NileQT87]

anybody notice that a bunch of the people going to the ball are chinamen with bald heads, hair locks and in traditional chinese dress? or is that my vivid imagination and seeing things? they look like they'd be more at home in a boxer rebellion flashback than an apparently CURRENT english high society ball. maybe it's joss' nod to firefly with a wink at chinese culture.

one thing though. we see dawn eating apples like they're the size of pop rocks there. does that mean when she gets fed she ends up eating all the pits, seeds, stems, god forbid, animal parts, etc...? do they make her huge vats of soup to drink? does willow magically super-size all her meals?

lol...

[Anon]

I thought that the last issue removed any real possibility that Faith was gay, but in her narration in this issue, Faith says 'somebody you dig' with reference to Buffy. I'm no expert on slang, but doesn't 'digging' someone mean that you're attracted to them? Fuffy could still be alive after all.

[vampmogs]

Digging someone doesn't have to mean you're attracted to them. Sometimes people say "I dig what you do" which just means they are really liking what someone is doing, or like someone in general. Though it can be just as friends, it doesn't have to mean you're attracted to them.

[Vampmaster]

As a first time viewer of the comics. (I have been reading the transcripts so far) I have to say that I love the general appearance of the comics and think that the drawers have done a really great job in creating likeness of the characters orignal actor. The only problem I have is with Willow who I don't think was done as well as the others. But its nothing overly big.

I have got to see I am loving the comic so far. I loved the opening pages featuring Buffy and Faith in Graduation Day. I also think for me a first time viewer it highlighted just how good the drawers are at recreating scenes. So kudos for that :) I love the interaction between Willow and Dawn... Willow line "Boys are into you because of your legs not those itty bitty things" made me :roll:

As Vampmogs said I hope that Faith throwing away the earplugs means that Buffy and the gang will be more involved in this mission than Giles had originally planned...

Btw whee for first post in the season 8 Section :2party:

[ThePoet's<3]

I agree KoC - too many flashbacks - eating up precious panel space!!

HHHmmm... Fuffy... Baith... Maybe... But I don't think so. I think it was more recognition from Faith there was a friendship of sorts between Buffy and Faith - at least from her POV. Or perhaps she was under that impression. And I think she is expressing more betrayal from that aspect - especially when she begins talking about the pain.

Typical Faith doing things her own way rather than for once following orders. I predict this is why Slayer Inc is involved.

[alexa]

Do we really have to use spoiler tags in the thread about Issue7? Little odd...
I liked the flashback, but now that ThePoet's<3 mentioned it, it is taking up space when 1 issue is so short. Loved the Willow/Dawn interaction, I actually felt bad for her even though she's a comic. Seems like they want to keep Dawn big for a while... I sort of think they should until Buffy deals with her, or until Dawn finds her own identity. Laughed when Faith tossed out the ear piece, she would say that, Brian has her voice really down Can't wait for this to arrive :D

[some spykie ship]

I agree with Vampmaster that Willow hasn't been done as well as the others.

For one thing, she uses the word "mojo" way too much. I thought it was Spike who used that word a lot.

Despite my frustration from what happened in LMPTM, I think we should trust Giles. Aside from that one lapse in judgment, he's been a good guy,

and Faith was daydreaming about Buffy's betrayal before tossing out the earpiece. Maybe it's Faith who's going to need straightening out before anything can be done about Gigi.

[sueworld]

Liked this issue a lot more then previous ones.

In this it was at least starting to show a semblance of the series that I once loved....The artwork was 'so so' as usual with this particular artist, although I did find some of the renditions of Faith to be rather on the ugly side and Buffy in one panel looked about 16.

Thank god Giles at least looked his age. Story was okay, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it unfolds, although I find it rather unsettling that Giles had chosen Faith to kill someone. Wasn't that rather undermining what had gone on before with her redemption arc? But hey, it's only a comic, I don't suppose I should look for much depth in this, or I suspect I'll only end up being very disappointed.

[vampmogs]

I think you most certainly should look for depth in this comic. Nothing in Joss Whedon's work lacks depth, it is what makes him such an interesting writer. The series will deal with Faith going to kill another human and what it means for her redemption. And already we've got a new insight into how she feels about her current job, there is depth there you just need to look for it.

[sueworld]

Yes, but it's hardly 'Watchmen' is it love. :roll:

This is why I was so disappointed so far with how season 8 has shaped up. The writing is very simplistic, and frankly two dimensional. Yes, comics can deal with more complex ideas and stories, sadly I don't think we're going to find them in here though.

[alexa]

That's so weird, I feel like I have depth coming out of my ears. I'm discussing the new season a lot, trying to work it out. The thing about comics is that there is limited space for text and images, so the sub-text is more subtle then ever before. I'd have to post about the depths when I'm not so sleepy, but I've found a lot of symbolism and new ideas conveyed in Season8 so far.. it's just different.

[sueworld]

Thing is to me it feels so different that it barely feels like Buffy at all. Issue 8 I like, but the others, err, not so much.

It doesn't help that I hate Joss's continuing fascination with the Potentials and that I don't like the whole 'Giant Dawn' malarkey. I find that element frankly ridiculous, even for a comic.

Also Buffy doesn't seem much like the young women I originally loved in the show. I know folks change, but that much? 'Old Buffy' would not have morally agreed with this 'quasi militaristic' set up she now runs, where young relatively unexperienced women fight and die in her name. They seek her out thinking that they will be helped in dealing with their 'little' problem only to get drawn into some kind of weird slayer army.

She didn't approve of what the watchers did to her and so I can't believe she would actively encourage the same sort of thing under her leadership. But then there was a lot of contradictory areas in season 7 that never got resolved, so maybe it's meant to be just a progression of that.

Nah, not my idea of Buffy, but then I'm not the target audience which appears to be blokes interested in seeing scantily clad potentials waving weapons around, having cat fights and jumping outta helicopters. No wonder it took this long for the focus to move onto Giles, he wouldn't look as good doing the same sort of thing would he?

That whole area seems so morally dodgy to me somehow. But thats just me, and I seem to be very much in the minority, unless you hang around in certain areas of Live Journal, where more people seem to share my concerns.

[vampmogs]

Thing is to me it feels so different that it barely feels like Buffy at all. Issue 8 I like, but the others, err, not so much.

I think it feels more like Buffy than season seven ever did. It again captured that wit and fast paced storytelling which made the first three seasons so successful in the first place.

It doesn't help that I hate Joss's continuing fascination with the Potentials and that I don't like the whole 'Giant Dawn' malarkey. I find that element frankly ridiculous, even for a comic.

I personally don't find giant Dawn any more ridiculous than the idea of her once being a floating ball of energy. Joss states he would have never done it on the show because he didn't have the budget to make it believeable, but in the comic he has no such limits. I was skeptical of the idea at first but as soon as I saw it I had no problem with it.

Also Buffy doesn't seem much like the young women I originally loved in the show. I know folks change, but that much? 'Old Buffy' would not have morally agreed with this 'quasi militaristic' set up she now runs, where young relatively unexperienced women fight and die in her name. They seek her out thinking that they will be helped in dealing with their 'little' problem only to get drawn into some kind of weird slayer army.

In 'The Chain' it becomes clear that nor Buffy or anyone else forces these girls into this situation like the old council, nor do they force them to fight in her name. They come to Buffy and the Scoobies willingly and it is their right to fight for Buffy and her cause if they wish. In 'The Chain' decoy Buffy says it was actually kind of beautiful over a panel which shows girls hugging and crying, seemingly they've been helped them out emotionally.

She didn't approve of what the watchers did to her and so I can't believe she would actively encourage the same sort of thing under her leadership. But then there was a lot of contradictory areas in season 7 that never got resolved, so maybe it's meant to be just a progression of that.

I don't believe that she is doing what the Watcher's did to her. No one is forcing these girls to join her cause or her army.

Nah, not my idea of Buffy, but then I'm not the target audience which appears to be blokes interested in seeing scantily clad potentials waving weapons around, having cat fights and jumping outta helicopters. No wonder it took this long for the focus to move onto Giles, he wouldn't look as good doing the same sort of thing would he?

Now I think that is unfair. The same thing could be said for the shippiness the show had throughout its seven years on tv, if we are going to make such stereotypical generalisations we could say this was just to appeal to female fans. I think women can enjoy the comics just as much as males, I know many who have. Nor have I really seen as scantily clad new slayers except for one panel which in his notes, Joss made clear he didn't want them to be super hot but realistic representations of what these women would look like. And I might add Xander has had a major role this season, more so than he had in the last few years of the show so the Giles comment doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

That whole area seems so morally dodgy to me somehow. But thats just me, and I seem to be very much in the minority, unless you hang around in certain areas of Live Journal, where more people seem to share my concerns.

I personally don't think Buffy has shown any questionable morals as of yet, Giles and Faith is a different matter but one that will certainly be explored.

[KingofCretins]

Thing is to me it feels so different that it barely feels like Buffy at all. Issue 8 I like, but the others, err, not so much.

It doesn't help that I hate Joss's continuing fascination with the Potentials and that I don't like the whole 'Giant Dawn' malarkey. I find that element frankly ridiculous, even for a comic.

Actually, you could argue that Giant Dawn is "the Buffy in it" at this point. If she did, in fact, get into a relationship and get dissed, a normal young woman could have embarrassment and shame, could feel humiliated and like everyone is watching her. In Buffy, the young woman *becomes a giant*. It's the kind of metaphor that defined the show in the first three seasons, isn't it? Now they just don't have the budget limits that would have made it impossible on TV.

Also, I haven't seen the fascination with the new Slayers -- there are new characters, but so far they have been secondary. I've seen a completely new investment in saying "oh yeah, these other main characters have stories to explore still" about Xander and Willow especially. Stories that were abandoned in favor of All Spike, All The Time in Season 7, as well as Wood and the then-potentials.


Also Buffy doesn't seem much like the young women I originally loved in the show. I know folks change, but that much? 'Old Buffy' would not have morally agreed with this 'quasi militaristic' set up she now runs, where young relatively unexperienced women fight and die in her name. They seek her out thinking that they will be helped in dealing with their 'little' problem only to get drawn into some kind of weird slayer army.

In 'The Chain' it becomes clear that nor Buffy or anyone else forces these girls into this situation like the old council, nor do they force them to fight in her name. They come to Buffy and the Scoobies willingly and it is their right to fight for Buffy and her cause if they wish. In 'The Chain' decoy Buffy says it was actually kind of beautiful over a panel which shows girls hugging and crying, seemingly they've been helped them out emotionally.

There isn't any evidence that any of the Slayers are being forced or coerced or manipulated into joining Buffy's organization. The very fact that only about 25% of the Slayers in the world are part of their group proves that. Buffy's group offers answers in a world that might not make sense to those girls anymore, but it doesn't force them on anyone. The Watchers, on the other hand, clearly coerced parents or even kidnapped young women, dozens or hundreds a generation, almost all of whom will never need it, and turned them into warriors to fight for their ideals. In "The Chain" its pretty clear people fight for Buffy because they want to, they talk about her like a rock star a bit.


Nah, not my idea of Buffy, but then I'm not the target audience which appears to be blokes interested in seeing scantily clad potentials waving weapons around, having cat fights and jumping outta helicopters. No wonder it took this long for the focus to move onto Giles, he wouldn't look as good doing the same sort of thing would he?

This is just nonsense. First of all, there are no "scantily clad" Slayers (they aren't potentials, they are Slayers). The *only* time such a thing happened was when they were showing Slayers playing strip poker behind Andrew for a joke, and even then, Joss' script instructions to Georges Jeanty were explicitly *not* to over-sexualize it because it was just in there for the gag of Andrew thinking Xander would be 'bored'. The rest of it is basically false... cat fights? Please be serious, or indicate exactly where in six issues so far you've seen a cat fight, or so much as an argument, between any of the Slayers. If you don't like it, don't like it, but don't just make up stuff about it like that.

So far, Season 8 is being applauded for drawing in and expanding the comic audience beyond the cliched conclusion you draw about the 'target audience'. It is the best selling non-Marvel/non-DC title in a long, long time. It's not achieving that by pandering to the comic book audience.

[vampmogs]

Completely agree.

The only fight cats we've seen on Buffy occured in season two and season three of the show. The first being in 'BB&B' when the entire female population of Sunnydale act catty under the influence of Xander and Amy's love spell, the second being in 'Homecoming' when Buffy and Cordy are very catty towards eachother. There has yet to be any cat fights in season eight.

[sueworld]

Don't agree, sorry. :)

You all make fine points, but I've said what I have to say, and I'm sticking with it. Later on I may bring over some comments that others have said on this matter as to why they're also not keen on this series so far.

[KingofCretins]

You all make fine points, but I've said what I have to say, and I'm sticking with it. Later on I may bring over some comments that others have said on this matter as to why they're also not keen on this series so far.

Your sticking with your criticism of the season for things that have not happened in the season (scantily clad Slayers with weapons, cat fights)? Now that is dedication.

[sueworld]

Depends on how you're perceiving the images and text love. I know plenty of folk who think the same, so there ya go. :)

[KingofCretins]

It's not actually a subjective conversation. For there to be catfights, there has to be a fight. It is an objectively referable fact that there has not been. For there to have been 'scantily clad (Slayers) waving weapons around' as the tone of the season, it has to have actually happened. It is an objectively referable fact that it has not (unless you feel like nitpicking over Slayers in their pajamas with their hair in rollers busting in on Amy in Buffy's room).

Where is the element of interpretation there? It would be like 'interpreting' that Buffy wears a pink tu-tu when she and Satsu went to rescue Willow.

[vampmogs]

There has been nothing to show anyone having a cat fight. If anyone looks at the images and text presented and gets 'catfight' out of it I’m sorry to say but they have a screw loose. Furthermore, even if there is a catfight why would season eight be condemned for this when it happened in two televised seasons of the series? It is plain hypercritical, as is labelling the action as something only males would enjoy, when action has been a huge part of the show since 'Welcome to the Hellmouth' and the show has always had a big female fanbase. Just like there has always been hot women fighting and holding weapons from the very episode as well. It isn't logical to criticise season eight for things that have never happened or things that have always happened in the show.

It is basically like me saying that I hated season six because it just consisted of cat fights... when it didn't have any.. or saying I hated season five because it had vampires in it... even though every season of the series has. Where is the logic in either case?

[sueworld]

Well since you asked..It's not actually a subjective conversation.

Oh yes it is love. We all perceive things differently, it's mankind's way I'm afraid.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/811/1962203yp0.jpg

It was images like this first splash page got my back up right from the start. Not skimpy I suppose in the traditional sense but it's still the old image of young 'tooled up chick' with (of all things) a what appears to be some kind of huge handgun. Something Buffy hated. To quote her from the show "Nothing ever good comes from these"

You just know the scenes of all the Potentials having one huge fight in front of Giles's balcony (I mean why, what kind of training is it involves such a fight 'on mass'. I'm amazed Giles could see what half of them were doing, let alone make valued judgments on their performances) which you knew was mainly there for *cough* 'effect'.

As to the rest of this series, well I thought I'd quote one of my friends reviews of it as she knows how to get to the heart of the matter far better then I...


In general, the whole thing is then just a bit too much like a fanboy-dream to me. The cat-suits, the cool-Nick-Fury-Xander commanding his army of nubile girls from the command center, the big guns and explosions, and so on. Honestly, I'd rather read a S8 where they all just sat in Giles' kitchen talking and drinking tea for 50 issues. Joss has said that the comic will have set-pieces that would have been impossible to do on tv with Buffy's effects budget, but the thing is, just because you can do something, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to actually do it. Especially if the motivation for doing it seems to be "wouldn't it be cool, if..."

The first issue was "Meh", the second was "What the hell, Joss?" and now we're back to the "Meh". With a healthy side-order of "What the hell, Joss".

I'll try to be short this time because basically my complaints are pretty much the same as with the last two issues.

The pace has picked up, so instead of the "meander, meander, meander, ZOMBIES!" we now get Buffy in some freaking dreamspace with Ethan, no, wait, she's awake, hang on, what about the zombies? who cares, XANDER IS COOL, deus ex dawn, bonding, bonding, IT'S A TRAP!!! It was more entertaining than the last two issues, but I had to read the comic twice to just keep track with who all the characters were.

Of course, the fact that the art is just getting worse did not help. I wouldn't have recognised Giles if he hadn't been cleaning his glasses, I kept confusing Willow and Dawn (even though she's a giant!) and the first time I read the story, I thought Andrew and Ethan were the same character. Oh, and speaking of art...

The scene with Andrew, the one where he's in a room full of half-naked slayers? There one with the slayer with the huge breasts wearing a teddy bear thong? Do I even need to continue? *headdesk*

And no, this is not the same as naked Angel and Spike in Buffy's dream. Even though there Spike and Angel are objects of Buffy's wet dream, they, unlike the slayer with the big breasts and the teddy bear thong have actual identities beyond the fact that they're sexy. In fact, I'd say it's Buffy with her nurse's outfit who becomes the sex object (for the readers) in that image the same way she was sexualised in the panel where she trashed on the bed in the sexy negligee in the previous issue.


Moving on...

Xander still feels out-of-character to me as well. Sure, most of his macho-posturing is played for jokes, but he's still feeling more and more like a Gary Stu in every issue. And I meant it when I said that all I want is that Xander keeps his pants on - and this includes the slayer-girl-whatever-her-name-is he's comforting and who, I suspect, could end up as his love-interest (because I still believe that Joss wouldn't pair Buffy up with Xander... please...)

And Buffy... is barely there. And the thing is, I know a lot of people complain that Buffy was too much about the women and that the men on the show were oh-so-oppressed, but to that I all I can say is: "Who the hell cares". It was Buffy's show, and having one show where women are the focus and men get sidelined is just a refreshing change. I mean just look at Angel, for crying out loud - every single woman on that show ended up dead or evil or both. Giles and Xander really had nothing to complain about. Buffy, on the other hand has everything to complain here - reduced to a sidekick and a damsel in distress in her own comic and with the most important thing about her being who she sleeps with.

The fanboy sexism aside, I just realised what's my biggest problem with the comic - the pacing. And not just because of the jerkiness of the storytelling, but also the way that the comics manage to ruin one of the Buffyverse trademark jokes.

I've often said that one of the best things about Jossverse is how ME played with the viewers. For example, there is a scene where Angel walks into a building uninvited, and the exact moment your brain goes "Wait a minute, how was Angel able to get in?", one of the characters says what you're thinking. Or in "Killer in Me" when Spike says "Who're you gonna call", and then adds "That phrase is never going to be useable again" the exact moment your brain goes "Ghoostbusters!" With the comic, that's not happening. We have the "What the hell" moment, with Buffy kissing Xander, for example, but there is no pay-off until a month later. It's the same thing that was wrong with the "Is Giles the First" plotline in season S7 - the pay-off should have come the moment you started trying to remember if Giles had actually touched anything.

I liked the "Ghoostbusters"-gotcha because it didn't distract from the story. Now, all the shipper-fanwanking feels just like cleverness for the sake of cleverness, and I wish that Joss would just get over it and start doing what he does best: writing good stories.

Also, the Initiative, Amy, Warren, and Ethan? I thought we already did the Best of Buffy villains with the First Evil.

In conclusion: Dear Brian Lynch, please write AtS S6 soon. Thank you.

And everyone who hasn't already, go buy Lynch's Spike: Asylum. It is good.

[Sosa lola]

At least season 8 is more enjoyable than season 7. God, I hated S7! The writers siding with Spuffy and ruining all the other characters in favor of Spuffy and Spuffy fans. Sorry, but a season where all the main characters are respected and used feels much more like Buffy than S7, which I assume was written by a 13 year old Spuffy writer, especially the last five episodes.

[sueworld]

Ha, I have no objection to 'the Spuffy' angle, just the potentials and Andrew, both of which managed to suck precious screen time form the likes of Xander and co.

Also the fact that unlike previous seasons Joss left plot holes big enough to drive a tank through in the last half of the season.

[NileQT87]

sueworld--

here's the thing. you get on season 8 btvs for being out-of-character or too comic fanboy-oriented... yet, you are vehemently supporting brian lynch, who i've gotten nothing but egotistical vibes from (and he CAN'T write angel's voice at all!) who is living out all his fanboy dreams of being more interested in monsters, fight scenes, demon prostitutes with curvy figures, etc... (com'on. count the amount of closeups of angel in comparison to the dragon and all the demons), unlike the way the writers have approached season 8 of btvs, which is FAR more like the shows.

it sounds a lot like you are putting down on season 8 a lot because you're a brian lynch fan, and you'll note the reactions here to season 8 have been a lot more positive than they have been to the way he's doing ats season 6 (and believe me, angel is my favorite character, spike is my third favorite after wesley, and i'm far more of an ats fan--yet, i'm saying season 8 is better).

here's the thing. joss and whoever is writing the faith arc--they clearly know these shows. they know the style, the speech pattern, the artists are being told to not live out their fanboy fantasies and filling up all the panels with as many busty women and monsters as they can get away with (the amount that angel is getting snubbed by urru in favor of overdrawn demons in the comic is just awful--angel's only decent closeup looks more like a copy of a promo shot than being in the action), etc... joss telling the artists to not sexualize the slayers, to obviously make sure that the actors/actresses aren't overly enhanced to ridiculous proportions--willow's widow's peak is still there, despite the history of buffy/angel comics being it conspicuously absent with as much cordelia as they could possibly put in every frame, even when angel is the main character or some such. the one curvy illyria cover is infamous.

brian lynch strikes me as more a person more into making his own mark (his own characters, certainly not caring about how he writes the character's voices) than living and breathing joss' world. on top of it, he certainly hasn't mastered the art of the joss "undercut", which clearly whoever wrote the faith arc has down as well as joss does, if not better. brian also needs to pay attention to the shows--understanding wolfram & hart would be a good start, because he clearly doesn't.

it's quite clear that the best line of his writing was a direct quote from "city of..." that's actually kind of sad. the rest of the dialog is a boring mess that doesn't fit with angel's voice.

less demon broads and monsters, more character-focus. correct speech patterns and keeping the style of the shows intact. that's the difference between lynch's writing and joss'/the faith arc guy's.

neither of the drawing styles are all that great, but at least the btvs comics have the characters being the stars of the comic in almost every frame. urru makes angel utterly irrelevant in his own story.

if that's brian lynch's style--that's yet another reason not to touch asylum and shadow puppets (the latter of which i think is a complete travesty to understanding professional writing vs. bad fanfiction--the episode itself was on shaky grounds for ats, but making spike into a puppet, too? that's the kind of thing a 13 year old would write as a badfic parody.).

if you want to see well-done, in-character examples of non-joss-written btvs/ats comics, look up "numb" from tales of the vampires #5... that's something that was done while truly understanding the show. that's just about the only non-joss comic story i ever wished was ON the show--it's the one with dead-jenny calendar and angelus/angel. whoever that was--i wish he was writing ats season 6 instead of lynch.

it's quite clear that joss is affiliated with the angel comics in name only, whereas his mark is all over the buffy ones. and it's a bloody awful shame. the angel comics need a complete overhaul, STAT. and i was way more excited for the angel ones originally.

[KingofCretins]

It was images like this first splash page got my back up right from the start. Not skimpy I suppose in the traditional sense but it's still the old image of young 'tooled up chick' with (of all things) a what appears to be some kind of gun. Something Buffy hated. To quote her from the show "Nothing ever good comes from these"

Not skimpy in any sense of the word -- again, there are such things as objective facts. The Slayers on that raid are all wearing tactical and reasonable apparel. If you honestly think that Jeanty is drawing the female figure in an unreasonably overdeveloped way... stop and pick up *any* other comic next time you're in the store. And, the reason Buffy is carrying that device with no complaint is that it is made obvious, on the first panel of the *next page*, that it's not a weapon, let alone a firearm -- it was a device to penetrate the forcefield around the castle they were landing on.

You just know the scenes of all the Potentials having one huge fight in front of Giles's balcony (I mean why, what kind of training is it involves such a fight 'on mass'. I'm amazed Giles could see what half of them were doing, let alone make valued judgments on their performances) which you knew was mainly there for 'effect.

So... instead of the training scene that it explicitly was, it was a giant catfight? With bokken? What 'effect' was it supposed to have other than depicting training? I'm sorry, it's preposterous to suggest that scene was included to titillate in anyway. Might as well say that the scene of Buffy eating a sandwich was designed to promote bulemia.

As to the rest of this series, well I thought I'd quote one of my friends reviews of it as she knows how to get to the heart of the matter far better then I...

Or, you can post this:

In general, the whole thing is then just a bit too much like a fanboy-dream to me. The cat-suits, the cool-Nick-Fury-Xander commanding his army of nubile girls from the command center, the big guns and explosions, and so on. Honestly, I'd rather read a S8 where they all just sat in Giles' kitchen talking and drinking tea for 50 issues. Joss has said that the comic will have set-pieces that would have been impossible to do on tv with Buffy's effects budget, but the thing is, just because you can do something, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to actually do it. Especially if the motivation for doing it seems to be "wouldn't it be cool, if..."

The first issue was "Meh", the second was "What the hell, Joss?" and now we're back to the "Meh". With a healthy side-order of "What the hell, Joss".

I'll try to be short this time because basically my complaints are pretty much the same as with the last two issues.

The pace has picked up, so instead of the "meander, meander, meander, ZOMBIES!" we now get Buffy in some freaking dreamspace with Ethan, no, wait, she's awake, hang on, what about the zombies? who cares, XANDER IS COOL, deus ex dawn, bonding, bonding, IT'S A TRAP!!! It was more entertaining than the last two issues, but I had to read the comic twice to just keep track with who all the characters were.

Of course, the fact that the art is just getting worse did not help. I wouldn't have recognised Giles if he hadn't been cleaning his glasses, I kept confusing Willow and Dawn (even though she's a giant!) and the first time I read the story, I thought Andrew and Ethan were the same character. Oh, and speaking of art...

The scene with Andrew, the one where he's in a room full of half-naked slayers? There one with the slayer with the huge breasts wearing a teddy bear thong? Do I even need to continue? *headdesk*

And no, this is not the same as naked Angel and Spike in Buffy's dream. Even though there Spike and Angel are objects of Buffy's wet dream, they, unlike the slayer with the big breasts and the teddy bear thong have actual identities beyond the fact that they're sexy. In fact, I'd say it's Buffy with her nurse's outfit who becomes the sex object (for the readers) in that image the same way she was sexualised in the panel where she trashed on the bed in the sexy negligee in the previous issue.

Okay, so basically most of this is a rant by someone illiterate in the pacing of the comic genre. Stuff happens faster in a comic than on TV. They might wish to notice that each issue is 32 pages and an average of 6 panels. That means that, every issue, a complete story, including any exposition, character development, conflict, and action has to be depicted in approximately 192 panels, at most.

The charges about the sexuality are likewise ridiculous -- as I already explained, Joss, in his scriptnotes, made sure to instruct Georges against over sexualizing the strip poker scene. And, compared to the industry standard, it wasn't sexual at all.

I enjoyed the doubletalk about why it's okay to see shirtless Angel and Spike, though :)

Moving on...

Xander still feels out-of-character to me as well. Sure, most of his macho-posturing is played for jokes, but he's still feeling more and more like a Gary Stu in every issue. And I meant it when I said that all I want is that Xander keeps his pants on - and this includes the slayer-girl-whatever-her-name-is he's comforting and who, I suspect, could end up as his love-interest (because I still believe that Joss wouldn't pair Buffy up with Xander... please...)

And Buffy... is barely there. And the thing is, I know a lot of people complain that Buffy was too much about the women and that the men on the show were oh-so-oppressed, but to that I all I can say is: "Who the hell cares". It was Buffy's show, and having one show where women are the focus and men get sidelined is just a refreshing change. I mean just look at Angel, for crying out loud - every single woman on that show ended up dead or evil or both. Giles and Xander really had nothing to complain about. Buffy, on the other hand has everything to complain here - reduced to a sidekick and a damsel in distress in her own comic and with the most important thing about her being who she sleeps with.

Yeah, even before I read this far I knew this was posted by an irrational Xander hater. It's become so bad that completely baseless "Gary Stu" accusations fly around merely because he's shown to be competent at any level. I mean, how useful can someone's analysis be who's only wish for the character is that he doesn't get a love interest?

As for Buffy being "barely there", clearly this is someone who didn't read Issue #4 or decided that they just didn't care when they were proven wrong. We've already seen Buffy in two substantial battles, dominating both times, we've seen her instructing Slayers, we've seen her being closer to her best friends than she was shown in the last two televised seasons. She is not a cipher in her own series to anyone who is reading it.

In conclusion: Dear Brian Lynch, please write AtS S6 soon. Thank you.

Go have your friend check out the covers for Issue #2 of "Angel: After the Fall" and come back and explain about the imaginary 'fanboy sexism' in Season 8.

Honestly, it was a lot of words to answer the question of 'scantily clad Slayers' and 'catfights', but not a lick of it substantive.

[Heather]

Well since you asked..

Oh yes it is love. We all perceive things differently, it's mankind's way I'm afraid.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/811/1962203yp0.jpg

It was images like this first splash page got my back up right from the start. Not skimpy I suppose in the traditional sense but it's still the old image of young 'tooled up chick' with (of all things) a what appears to be some kind of huge handgun. Something Buffy hated. To quote her from the show "Nothing ever good comes from these"

You just know the scenes of all the Potentials having one huge fight in front of Giles's balcony (I mean why, what kind of training is it involves such a fight 'on mass'. I'm amazed Giles could see what half of them were doing, let alone make valued judgments on their performances) which you knew was mainly there for *cough* 'effect'.

As to the rest of this series, well I thought I'd quote one of my friends reviews of it as she knows how to get to the heart of the matter far better then I...

Honey, I'll safely say that I'm on your side. I, for one, have not been impressed by these comics. Mind you, it's nice to have Buffy back - even if only in comic form - but each issue really does leave me yearning for something else. Some kind of...OOMPH! And I most definitely agree that it seems as if Joss is just doing the stuff he's dreamed of doing [giant!Dawn, magic-fights (albeit, I'd have LOVED to have seen this on TV), etc...] but it's not GOOD, in my opinion. Especially the giant!Dawn story. In my eyes, it's very weak and amateur and beneath Joss' amazing ability to write/produce/create fantastic stories.

These comics just...they're not what I wanted for Season 8. I love Buffy - not as much as a lot of people here (most of whom know I prefer Angel to Buffy) - but this Season 8 comic series is making me lose a lot of interest in any form of continuation of the series.

I much would've prefered sticking to virtual seasons (fan-written seasons, for those who do not know) or holding out hope for that off-chance we'd get a movie than to have to accept these comics as official canon in the Buffyverse. :(

That's just my opinion, though.

EDIT: And I'd like to add that that review you quoted, hun, was fantastic and spot-on with my views of the comics. I was nodding along as I read because I agreed with so much of it. Thanks for sharing. :)

[Sosa lola]

I agree. Andrew and Slayer Jr also took quite the screen time. At least now, everyone gets to have a role. Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles all of them have big roles. Those four matter to me the most, so I'm pleased.

I don't get the whole Buffy didn't have much to do in these comics. She had more panels than anyone in the first four issues. She was the one who opened the first scene, she was the one with the hard missions, she was the one we visited her dream space, she was the one Ethan asked for help, she was the one who saved Willow, she was the one the first arc ended with.

What more do fans want? They want Buffy to always look good and never be in trouble? I'm sorry, but that'll make her boring Superman. I like the fact that Buffy might lose a battle or be in trouble, that makes it more believable. If she's Superman all the time, then she'll be a one dimensional, boring hero.

I'm with you on the giant!Dawn dislike. I wish something good comes out of it. I'm also not hot on Willow's character, and Warren's return.

Other than that, still enjoying. I like Buffy, Xander, Satsu, Leah, Giles and even Faith (who I didn't care about on the show) a lot in season 8. I'm glad they kept Giles like his S7 persona, that was a good continuity, even though it's sad to see him quite alone.

[NileQT87]

at least giant-dawn wasn't done for kicks like making "elliot/puff" the dragon into a 'confused' wolfram & hart employee (haha) that was w&h's biggest unleashed weapon from a hell dimension meant to crush angel & co. it was done just because the writer/artist had more interest in the dragon than angel.

giant-dawn actually serves a purpose of making dawn's issues of feeling neglected come out. her super-sizing is pure ALLEGORY to her problems and issues.

the dragon has no allegory other than being fanboy cool.

it's one thing to have buffy dreaming about her exes, and another for spike to willingly allow himself to be a sex object again (now, *that*'s out of character).

[KingofCretins]

Well, Superman has been selling a lot of comics for decades, he can't be that boring -- but Buffy isn't supposed to be Superman, nor has she been presented as such. She's simply been the unambiguous star of her own series so far.

So far, I like Willow (inclusive of 8.07 preview) in this series. I have been sort of expecting that she would become a much more, I dunno, distant type of person as she has grown more powerful *and* learned to control it. And, I like Giant Dawn because of it's throwback to the old metaphor scheme, although I'll be more interested in her character once she's back to normal. I like Satsu and Renee, and I really want more Leah, but Rowena has been pretty nondescript so far.

[Heather]

What more do fans want? They want Buffy to always look good and never be in trouble? I'm sorry, but that'll make her boring Superman. I like the fact that Buffy might lose a battle or be in trouble, that makes it more believable. If she's Superman all the time, then she'll be a one dimensional, boring hero.

I'm with you on the giant!Dawn dislike. I wish something good comes out of it. I'm also not hot on Willow's character, and Warren's return.

Now, I do believe that the storylines they're having for Season 8 are pretty damn good (most notably the current Faith one) but to me, they are not being written very well or to their fullest potential. There's a lot missing, in my eyes, and I'm not impressed by it.

I agree that Buffy as a one-dimensional and boring hero is undesirable. I really do. And I think this is the one thing I disagree with sueworld about: Buffy's role. She does seem to have a big role compared to Season 7. But I don't think her parts are being written to their highest capacity.

at least giant-dawn wasn't done for kicks like making "elliot/puff" the dragon into a 'confused' wolfram & hart employee (haha)--that was w&h's biggest unleashed weapon from a hell dimension meant to crush angel & co.--just because the writer/artist had more interest in the dragon than angel.

giant-dawn actually serves a purpose of making dawn's issues of feeling neglected come out.

the dragon has no allegory other than being fanboy cool.

I'm not pumped about Angel Season 6, either. At the moment, I'm unimpressed by Angel Season 6 and by Buffy Season 8 that I just might give up completely and just pop back in occasionally for the brief read of an issue. I don't know.

But I strongly believe that these writers aren't doing their best with these stories. And it upsets me to take this in as canon.

And the art isn't very impressive. There are SO many other comics out there with great art in them but...these Buffy ones look like amateurs or fans drew them. And it does seem to be getting worse as the issues progress. Now, that can't be said about the cover art - which TOTALLY gets better with each issue and continues to give me chills. But yeah.

[KingofCretins]

If it's any reassurance, it's the nature of comics to turn over artists pretty regularly -- Jeanty probably won't always be pencilling this book. However, Buffy is pretty unique in needing to get the penciller approved by various real people with likeness rights (SMG, for instance). I prefer Jeanty's pencils to Paul Lee (who pencilled "The Chain").

Most of the elite artists would probably get blasted as being too sexualized with female characters.

I'd love to see Jo Chen actually do an entire issue in her style, or for them to splurge and bring on Alex Ross to paint an issue.

[sueworld]

Mind you, it's nice to have Buffy back - even if only in comic form - but each issue really does leave me yearning for something else. Some kind of...OOMPH! And I most definitely agree that it seems as if Joss is just doing the stuff he's dreamed of doing [giant!Dawn, magic-fights (albeit, I'd have LOVED to have seen this on TV), etc...] but it's not GOOD, in my opinion. Especially the giant!Dawn story. In my eyes, it's very weak and amateur and beneath Joss' amazing ability to write/produce/create fantastic stories.

These comics just...they're not what I wanted for Season 8. I love Buffy - not as much as a lot of people here (most of whom know I prefer Angel to Buffy) - but this Season 8 comic series is making me lose a lot of interest in any form of continuation of the series.

Yeah, I agree with you love. It is good to have something new with the Buffy logo on it, I just wish I could will myself to ignore the poor writing and embrace it, but I just can't.

I do still intend to get the issues though as I said issue 8 seemed better, ironically enough I suspect because Joss isn't writing it.

Never thought I'd ever write that sentence. :lol:

I'm still hoping that things will continue to improve as other writers come over and get involved.

The dragon has no allegory other than being fanboy cool.


*g* He well may be, but I'll reserve my judgment till the series is actually out. You seem pretty sure though, are you privy to preview copy's then love?


Oh and NileQT87 I use the term 'love' a lot because I'm a English women of a 'certain age' and in my generation it's a word often used. It's not meant to be patronizing, and sorry if you seem to take it that way. Spike isn't the only person to favor it's usage you know. *g*

[Sosa lola]

The Long Way Home is the first season 8 episode. BtVS is known for bad season openers. The Faith arc is more interesting, I fully agree. I also liked the fifth issue, showing Giles and the Scoobies in bad light. I love when things get so gray. I'm enjoying Buffy's character much more in the comics than in S7, and Xander FINALLY gets to have a role. Giles has always had a special place in my heart. Willow... still not enjoying her character. She's just too powerful. It's like there's no limits. Then again, I wasn't much of a Willow fan ever since she got interested in magic. She's more interesting without it.

[some spykie ship]

Then again, I wasn't much of a Willow fan ever since she got interested in magic. She's more interesting without it.

I've felt the same way lately. Willow and the magic have been partners for too long.

I also had a problem with all the technical gear and equipment. While I understand why Joss wouldn't want to go back to basics, it wouldn't be boring if the writers and artists of S8 lightened up a little on the sci-fi. I knew the season was going to be done in comics, but I didn't think that it would be pure sci-fi all the way. That's not BtVS.

I've noticed that sometimes a season of a show starts out slow and then gets good. Hopefully that'll be the case here, and this season will start to get good starting with #7.

[alexa]

Holy crap people on this forum are passionate! I was actually able to agree with sueworld to an extent until I read your further posts. I'm not a fan of all the slayers being all over the place, they threaten developing storylines for the scoobies.. or at least I'm worried they will. So far though I'm really happy that Xander/Willow/Buffy are more centre stage, rather then Spike this (and I love Spike), and Potentials that. I absolutely thought a giant Dawn was ridiculous! But now the metaphor has grown on me, much like when Angel became a puppet and I thought that would be horrible.

One thing I really want people to have a look at is your panel posted from Issue 1, and look to the next pages, to see that Buffy is using this "gun" purely to get rid of the magical barrier, it is not a weapon. And I think this is further emphasized by Joss in Issue 2, when the slayer in Andrew's group wants to use guns.

"You didn't listen to a word I said did you? - No Slayer uses guns. Ever." LWH pt2

Anyways since I've cleared that up :p I was actually thinking that the way the girls are portrayed in season8 is realistic... they look more like Buffy did around season3, before SMG became a little too skinny sometimes. Women are full figured, not stick figures, and also not breasts and legs everywhere. The only image so far which made my eye twicth was Faith on Chen's cover of #6.. but still, it was such a cool cover I got over it. I guess.

[vampmogs]

Well since you asked
It was images like this first splash page got my back up right from the start. Not skimpy I suppose in the traditional sense but it's still the old image of young 'tooled up chick' with (of all things) a what appears to be some kind of huge handgun. Something Buffy hated. To quote her from the show "Nothing ever good comes from these"

I'm not going to repeat what everyone else has said about the gun because I think they've all made their point excellently but I don't see the objection of Buffy and the slayers wearing armour? It is a logical progression for Buffy to equip them up in this way and I fail to see how having Buffy in armour is anymore of a problem than having her carrying broad swoars and various weaponary throughout the seven years the show aired.

You just know the scenes of all the Potentials having one huge fight in front of Giles's balcony (I mean why, what kind of training is it involves such a fight 'on mass'. I'm amazed Giles could see what half of them were doing, let alone make valued judgments on their performances) which you knew was mainly there for *cough* 'effect'.

He was training them to see how they worked as a team, how they helped eachother. And seeing as they are in fact an army, with a large mass of girls it makes perfect sense that Giles would make them fight in a large group like this. The fight with the Zombies later in the issue clearly showed they sometimes do fight in mass so Giles' training was imperative. We also Buffy training them in smaller groups as well.. so again.. don't see your point.

[sueworld]

One thing I really want people to have a look at is your panel posted from Issue 1, and look to the next pages, to see that Buffy is using this "gun" purely to get rid of the magical barrier, it is not a weapon. And I think this is further emphasized by Joss in Issue 2, when the slayer in Andrew's group wants to use guns.

Oh right thanks for that info. It still a shame that they chose to have it shaped like a large hi-tec gun though. Talk about giving the wrong impression eh.

:)

I still agree with the comments made by my friends review though. The hi-tec/fanboy overtones put me off, as well as the other issues she mentioned.


vampmogs I'm more then willing to agree to disagree here about this series. As I said in an earlier comment we all see things differently, and mine and a few others elsewhere see things in another light. Thats not to say either view is wrong, just different thats all.

:)

I still intend to carry on buying the comics unless they get staggeringly bad, but on the evidence of the last issue (8) things are beginning to 'look up' a wee bit, so I'm more then willing to carry on reading and see if Joss has a few ideas up his sleeve that will surprise me in a good way.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

The scene with Andrew, the one where he's in a room full of half-naked slayers? There one with the slayer with the huge breasts wearing a teddy bear thong? Do I even need to continue? *headdesk*

For me that scene operated on the same basis that Xander’s Potentials dream in season 7 did – it’s not presented for the reader/viewer as erotic, it’s more focussed on the people who are witnessing the nymphy idyll. In season 7, Xander’s dream is all about how he sees the Potentials, not how we should see them. And in this case, it’s about Andrew’s non-reaction (to misquote Dawn….Andrew, mate…come out, come out COME OUT!).

However, I think Buffy’s always been problematic in this way. Buffy and the other characters ARE hot, and they do often wear revealing clothing, and part of the pleasure of the show IS their hotness (whether in a sexual way or just in an admiring-their-beauty-and-making-fanart-of-SMG way). I don’t think the comics are worse in this way, but I do think it’s something worth bearing in mind both in the TV version and the comics version.

But I do agree re the guns-like objects and the general military-looking set up. It smacks of Buffy being co-opted by the structures she fought so hard to shrug off. It’s hard to say she shouldn’t use helicopters and gun style gear etc on a practical level, but on a symbolic level, it is troubling, yes.

In fact, I'd say it's Buffy with her nurse's outfit who becomes the sex object (for the readers) in that image the same way she was sexualised in the panel where she trashed on the bed in the sexy negligee in the previous issue.

That’s a really interesting point – I can’t decide whether I agree with you or not, so I’ll have to think further about it. One thing that strikes me is that part of female (or rather, some women’s) enjoyment of sexuality can contain an element of self-objectification…eg actively enjoying wearing certain items of clothing that are not exactly in the commonly thought to be empowering bracket…like naughty nurse uniforms etc. Or even enjoying having a man want you, that basking in the male gaze that plenty of women do revel in. There’s a tension between the power a woman feels from exploring her own sexual identity, claiming her own pleasure, and the way that her pleasure has conformed to what’s expected of her, and the way that pleasure can involve a degree of objectification. Not always, or even often, mind you, but when we’re talking about women’s sexual fantasies, many of them do involve things that they’d not want to do in real life, and would be ashamed - as empowered women - to admit to.



I mean just look at Angel, for crying out loud - every single woman on that show ended up dead or evil or both.

Oh god yes. That is an aspect of Joss’s oeuvre that does NOT impress me.


The fanboy sexism aside, I just realised what's my biggest problem with the comic - the pacing. And not just because of the jerkiness of the storytelling, but also the way that the comics manage to ruin one of the Buffyverse trademark jokes.

I had some problems with the jumpy/jerkiness too. But I still think there were plenty of good gags. Though…always room for more please Joss. :)

With the comic, that's not happening. We have the "What the hell" moment, with Buffy kissing Xander, for example, but there is no pay-off until a month later. It's the same thing that was wrong with the "Is Giles the First" plotline in season S7 - the pay-off should have come the moment you started trying to remember if Giles had actually touched anything.

That’s interesting, I think you’re right. The questions have to be in your mind for it to feel like a payoff. Otherwise it’s just some random money that you didn’t ask for and turns out to be fake. Um…I think I’ll leave that metaphor to die a natural death by the roadside…

There is some playfulness in the comics, but I think you’re right to say that there’s not as much as on the show, and I’d like to see more. There’s some interesting stuff going on with the cuts from moment to moment and scene to scene – eg Faith’s story suddenly cutting to flashback instead of giving us Giles’s response to her question (mind you, I still want to know what he said re her being the best girl for a job, since it clearly wasn’t “because you’re a worthless whore”).

Also, the Initiative, Amy, Warren, and Ethan? I thought we already did the Best of Buffy villains with the First Evil.

This is the remix. With bonus tracks :) Amy and Warren weren’t much cop really, and I think “she’s gone insaaaaane!” is a bit of a rubbish evil motivation. But I liked Ethan, and I think Twilight is different from the Initiative, because it addresses the power of the slayers and how that might frighten governments (etc). The Initiative’s agenda re Buffy was a personal one, that of the Evil Bitch Monster of Death. But some more original villains would be good. And no more evil Englishwomen please! I’m starting to take it personally :D

Overall, my inner jury’s still out on the comics. Some great moments, but it’s not quite hanging together for me yet. However, I think I’ll need to read the trade paperback to really judge (haven’t kept hold of all the issues) – being able to read it uninterrupted by adverts, and all at once will give me a better sense of the pacing (since each issue was like quarter of an ep, it’s rather hard to get an overview from that).



At least season 8 is more enjoyable than season 7. God, I hated S7! The writers siding with Spuffy and ruining all the other characters in favor of Spuffy and Spuffy fans. Sorry, but a season where all the main characters are respected and used feels much more like Buffy than S7, which I assume was written by a 13 year old Spuffy writer, especially the last five episodes.

It was the serious and militaristic tone of season 7, plus the lame First Evil plotting and the sudden influx of lots of not very interesting characters (though I liked Rona and that skinny one who used to beat up boys then got killed whose name escapes me) that didn’t work for me in season 7. I wasn’t too bothered by the centrality of Spike and Buffy, cos I felt it was the Potentials storyline that sidelined the other characters the most. I am enjoying the balance of characters in this season, but I don’t want to have tooo many issues sans Buffy. Enjoying the Faith arc and I liked the Chain, but since this is supposed to be the next season of Buffy, I’d prefer her to be in most of them from now on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you want to see well-done, in-character examples of non-joss-written btvs/ats comics, look up "numb" from tales of the vampires #5...

Which one was that? I read those ages ago but can’t remember the titles. I loved the comedy one in that, the Christmas rhyme one…creepy! But they were all brilliant, and playful and unique. Must read ‘em again.

Actually there was one that really reminded me of Carnivale…the one with the boy living out in the dusty plains, who becomes a vampire. [/random mental connection]


I don't get the whole Buffy didn't have much to do in these comics. She had more panels than anyone in the first four issues. She was the one who opened the first scene, she was the one with the hard missions, she was the one we visited her dream space, she was the one Ethan asked for help, she was the one who saved Willow, she was the one the first arc ended with.

I think people are complaining partly because over the last few issues, Buffy hasn’t been present. In the comics she has been in, she’s had stuff to do, but there’ve been a few without her, so it feels less like the show and more like a slayer-based spinoff. Which is fine too, but definitely different from the tv seasons.


Well, Superman has been selling a lot of comics for decades, he can't be that boring –

I don’t think sales figures mean much. Many people have terrible taste! But no, Superman isn’t boring at all. He has plenty of shit to deal with, and just because someone’s got ultra super powers, it doesn’t mean that life becomes easy. With great power comes great etc and all that.

So far, I like Willow (inclusive of 8.07 preview) in this series. I have been sort of expecting that she would become a much more, I dunno, distant type of person as she has grown more powerful *and* learned to control it.

I would like people to maybe comment more on her new powers though. I mean, dude, she’s flying around and no one’s making jokes about it? Come on Scoobies, you can do better than that. At least a few Mary Poppins gags? Tinkerbell? Wonder Willow and her blinvisible jet? Ok, those aren’t jokes, but you know what I mean. Referency jokes to highlight that someone’s doing something new and rather strange.


And the art isn't very impressive. There are SO many other comics out there with great art in them but...these Buffy ones look like amateurs or fans drew them. And it does seem to be getting worse as the issues progress. Now, that can't be said about the cover art - which TOTALLY gets better with each issue and continues to give me chills. But yeah.

Yeah, the art isn’t as good as it could be. There are some AMAZING artists out there, bring them on. Simon Bisley, Carlos Ezquerra, Bryan Talbot, Brian Bolland, Ian Gibson, Kevin O’Neill (yeah, I’m a 2000AD fan, can you tell?)…but also some less quirky artists if they feel they need a mainstream look…Leinil Yu, for example. His Superman Birthright stuff was amazing, but very clean, clear and good for action stuff.


Most of the elite artists would probably get blasted as being too sexualized with female characters.

I’m now trying to think of someone who does women well. Some of the Runaways artists might suit…though I don’t think it’s got the most gorgeously splendid art in the world, might be good for the Buffy comics (Runaways having a VERY Buffy like tone might be what’s persuading me on that front). Can’t remember who does it…remember one guest artist being rather nifty. Oh, and the ones who do Fables, some of those might be good too. Similar tone to the comics I feel, so that might be colouring my view!

[Sosa lola]

I think people are complaining partly because over the last few issues, Buffy hasn’t been present. In the comics she has been in, she’s had stuff to do, but there’ve been a few without her, so it feels less like the show and more like a slayer-based spinoff. Which is fine too, but definitely different from the tv seasons.




People were complaining about the lack of Buffy since Issue 2. They were upset because Xander looked cool and Willow had a cool fight with Amy, and Buffy was just asleep. They all forgot that Buffy also had a cool fight with Gross Monster in Issue 1, that her being asleep was more than that, would you rather Dawn or Xander went to sleep and got the visit from Ethan just so Buffy could be there to fight? No, it's Buffy's show. Buffy should be the one who sleeps, Buffy should be the one getting the visit from Ethan, and there's no harm of having her friends trying to wake her up. After all, they're her friends.


About S7, I don't hate Spuffy because it's Spuffy. I don't mind Spuffy, I prefer it to Buffy's other ships. I just hated how it was handled in the last four episode. The whole "No one cares about Buffy but Spike", that's just too fanficcy for my taste. Ruining major characters in order to achieve that, that what I didn't like. Let Spuffy steal screen time from the characters, I don't care, just don't ruin them because of it.

[vampmogs]

People were complaining about the lack of Buffy since Issue 2. They were upset because Xander looked cool and Willow had a cool fight with Amy, and Buffy was just asleep. They all forgot that Buffy also had a cool fight with Gross Monster in Issue 1, that her being asleep was more than that, would you rather Dawn or Xander went to sleep and got the visit from Ethan just so Buffy could be there to fight? No, it's Buffy's show. Buffy should be the one who sleeps, Buffy should be the one getting the visit from Ethan, and there's no harm of having her friends trying to wake her up. After all, they're her friends.

Completely agree, and it is great to see her friends helping her out and saving her like they used to again. Besides Buffy has been absent from one issue, hardly a crime. I don't want to see it happen often but it was only one issue, she has been in every issue other than 'The Chain.' I think she has had a big role to play thus far, as have Xander, Willow and Giles and I'm loving it. I really don't why people say she has been absent? Like you said, it had to be her who was in the dreamspace with Ethan because it is her show, and it was all about her. So what if she didn't fight in Issue #3 I'd rather learn something about her and get into her head then see her beat up a few guys, we had her doing that plenty in Issue #4 and Issue #1.

About S7, I don't hate Spuffy because it's Spuffy. I don't mind Spuffy, I prefer it to Buffy's other ships. I just hated how it was handled in the last four episode. The whole "No one cares about Buffy but Spike", that's just too fanficcy for my taste. Ruining major characters in order to achieve that, that what I didn't like. Let Spuffy steal screen time from the characters, I don't care, just don't ruin them because of it.

I agree, this whole no one sticks up for me but Spike crap that we were hand fed by Noxon. Giles says it well, "We are all watching your back" and have been, Buffy, since day one. The writers did get a little better towards the end of the season, having Buffy tell Xander he has always been her strength and the reason she even made it this far, and with Willow,Buffy and Xander walking together down the school hallway. This season is rocking with core four action, I can't wait to see Buffy interact with Giles again... especially since his little mission.

[alexa]

Is anyone else reading Buffy Omnibus, because besides some of the core stories of her pre-Sunndydale experiences, the art is horrible. Especially the last comic in Omnibus 2 which has this Queen of the Vampires theme. All the female characters are drawn with massive breasts and tightest clothing possible, and a much worse likeness then season 8. The quality of season 8 is amazing to me, compared to what it could be, and this doesn't mean that sometimes it may be a little off. The important thing to me is that I can hear the characters in my head when I read it, and it feels like Buffy, (something which I sort of got from Ring of Fire, even though the art isn't the best).

I'm not sure why people think Buffy wasn't present either? I suppose if that was your experience, uh ok. But for me she seemed more present and honest then the last season, in terms of communicating with her friends and us. We were in her head for bloody sake. :p I love that she's close with Xander and actually confides in him, I don't think we would have seen this in season 7.

[vampmogs]

Is anyone else reading Buffy Omnibus, because besides some of the core stories of her pre-Sunndydale experiences, the art is horrible. Especially the last comic in Omnibus 2 which has this Queen of the Vampires theme. All the female characters are drawn with massive breasts and tightest clothing possible, and a much worse likeness then season 8. The quality of season 8 is amazing to me, compared to what it could be, and this doesn't mean that sometimes it may be a little off. The important thing to me is that I can hear the characters in my head when I read it, and it feels like Buffy, (something which I sort of got from Ring of Fire, even though the art isn't the best).

I agree about the art. At times, we have the odd image which is a little weird but more often than not I think Jeanty has done excellent work. The art feels very warm to me, what I mean by this is that it is welcoming and feels familiar, I can see the actors in the characters without them having to be exact and the art displays their emotions wonderfully. From what I've seen of Angel: After the Fall the art is awesome in the pages but I can't help but feel it is very cold, great talent but I can't connect with his face.

I'm not sure why people think Buffy wasn't present either? I suppose if that was your experience, uh ok. But for me she seemed more present and honest then the last season, in terms of communicating with her friends and us. We were in her head for bloody sake. :p I love that she's close with Xander and actually confides in him, I don't think we would have seen this in season 7.

Agreed. Buffy seems very comfortable with who she is now, she seems to have connected her friends again and her character isn't just being made to be depressed or sad all the time because the writers found this more interesting. She has a happy mix right now and I'm really enjoying it.

[omri]

opinion under the spoiler
I'm actually glad to see scenes from the show... kind of a previously on BTVS.
Finally, we see Dawn again! I really like Dawn. Most of the people I know that like Buffy, don't really like Dawn.. Hate her actually.

[Sosa lola]

opinion under the spoiler
I'm actually glad to see scenes from the show... kind of a previously on BTVS.
Finally, we see Dawn again! I really like Dawn. Most of the people I know that like Buffy, don't really like Dawn.. Hate her actually.


I like Dawn, too. :) She's a favorite character of mine. I can't wait to see what's the deal with her giantness.

[some spykie ship]

An opinion that I used to hear a lot in the past was that Dawn was whiny. It's possible that Dawn being a giant is a cry for attention, since she won't help anyone help her. She complains that she'll only talk to Willow, but then she won't really talk to Willow when Willow's right in front of her. I always thought of Dawn as a job that Buffy will have to do for the rest of her life. Dawn isn't a real person yet she has human feelings and needs protecting anyway, blah blah.

[Moscow Watcher]

I like Dawn, too. :) She's a favorite character of mine. I can't wait to see what's the deal with her giantness.

When I read that Xander arc will be taking place in Japan, I wondered if Dawn's size will be played as a pop-culture reference to Godzilla and other giants who are quite popular in that country. Of course, the question of her transportation arises - but Willow could create a portal to send her there.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Is this issue out today, or is my brain playing time tricks? Anyone read it yet? Any good?

[KingofCretins]

Very strong issue, and surprising. Faith's flashback was not irrelevant to the plot at all, in fact, it ties in nicely to the fact that she feels an almost instant bond with Genevieve. Who, incidentally, I'm starting to like -- I think Giles is on the wrong side of this. Genevieve is clearly Twilight's pawn, and while she's not exactly an innocent victim, she is no more deserving of instant condemnation than Faith ever was.

I wonder how much of the forthcoming conflict will be driven by Faith actually believing in Genevieve and Roden, which is a direction I don't think anyone considered them going with this.

Yay, Renee interacted with people other than Xander. I think we got a great glimpse into Willow's role in the BHC as she decides to stick around -- she's a figure of authority, but also of wariness and a little fear by the non-Scoobies.

[Phoenix]

I forgot that this issue was out yet! What's everyone elses thoughts on the issue if you've read it? I'll be picking mine up friday night :)

[ThePoet's<3]

I liked this issue! I agree KoC I think Faith and Lady G are going to get along very well together. And I knew Faith didn't have it in her to just flat out murder someone - although she came pretty close. ***HHHhhhmmm... Who DOES that remind me of... A certain vampire who was out to bite someone - a girl maybe - and his chip fired. :D ;) ***

So now we have Faith almost killing Lady G - and just about made it - however the demons came for her. I thought Faith fighting the demons was excellent!! She really looked fierce!

I'm beginning to think this Roden is the one who is controlling Lady G. And because she has had no contact with Buffy or Giles to clear up the miscommunications of being a Slayer she has relied on this Roden and the Twilight branch of the Initiative who have gladly filled her head with hate against Buffy and Slayer Inc.

I see Faith in a precarious position however... In aligning herself with this Lady G she could join forces to overthrow Slayer Inc. She will have to finally make that decision - is Buffy "The Slayer" in charge or not?? Is she #2 to Buffy's number #1? Lady G's singing the same song Faith has for quite a while (before Chosen). "Buffy, Buffy, Buffy...why is is ALWAYS Buffy??"

[KingofCretins]

I liked this issue! I agree KoC I think Faith and Lady G are going to get along very well together. And I knew Faith didn't have it in her to just flat out murder someone - although she came pretty close. ***HHHhhhmmm... Who DOES that remind me of... A certain vampire who was out to bite someone - a girl maybe - and his chip fired. ***

I don't think there's any question that Faith was about to kill her, bonding or not. She was about to say "maybe in another life" as she pulled her knife from her hair. So yeah, it's much like a certain vampire -- a clear intent to kill interrupted by an outside force :)

Faith was amazing against the gargoyles, that was a fun little fight. I much preferred the scene of the two of them on the balcony though. I honestly *liked* Genevieve for most of this issue, it was so strange.

I'm beginning to think this Roden is the one who is controlling Lady G. And because she has had no contact with Buffy or Giles to clear up the miscommunications of being a Slayer she has relied on this Roden and the Twilight branch of the Initiative who have gladly filled her head with hate against Buffy and Slayer Inc.

Twilight is clearly much, much bigger than the Initiative ever was. And, I think it's pretty clears that whatever elements of the military are operating within Twilight are not necessarily, or at all, connected to the Initiative. But, yes, the gist sounds right. Roden got to Genevieve before any one from Buffy's group could and began to tell her all kinds of lies about the Slayer history.

Notice, Genevieve thought she was teaching Faith about Slayers. Clearly, Genevieve is under the impression that the Slayer awakening was a random event. She doesn't seem to have *any idea* about Buffy's role in it, or the Slayer line prior to herself beyond the fact that there is one.

A few observations, also. I think we can say for certain that Roden was the floating man in 8.01; several pictures in Genevieve's armoire were taken, from above, of Buffy and Alpha Team during that mission.

I think Faith is going to try to protect Genevieve. Not to assist her, obviously, but she's not going to let Giles or Buffy kill her. She *is* Faith, just like Faith *was* Angel to him, back in "Five by Five" and "Sanctuary".

[ThePoet's<3]

Twilight is clearly much, much bigger than the Initiative ever was. And, I think it's pretty clears that whatever elements of the military are operating within Twilight are not necessarily, or at all, connected to the Initiative. But, yes, the gist sounds right. Roden got to Genevieve before any one from Buffy's group could and began to tell her all kinds of lies about the Slayer history.

Notice, Genevieve thought she was teaching Faith about Slayers. Clearly, Genevieve is under the impression that the Slayer awakening was a random event. She doesn't seem to have *any idea* about Buffy's role in it, or the Slayer line prior to herself beyond the fact that there is one.
Absolutely! She almost acts as if she is "Buffy" - the girl who is suddenly turned Slayer in Charge and all the Slayers are coming to her - and BUFFY is the Slayer "gone wrong"!

A few observations, also. I think we can say for certain that Roden was the floating man in 8.01; several pictures in Genevieve's armoire were taken, from above, of Buffy and Alpha Team during that mission.
Excellent observation!!! I hadn't thought about it till you said that - it certainly seems clear he is the Floaty Man!!

I think Faith is going to try to protect Genevieve. Not to assist her, obviously, but she's not going to let Giles or Buffy kill her. She *is* Faith, just like Faith *was* Angel to him, back in "Five by Five" and "Sanctuary".

Yes - with the FB that seemed to take up so many panels - it now makes much more sense why BKV decided to use up so much story space with a FB!

Lady G is Faith when she first came to Buffy! And now it will be Faith's turn to be "Buffy" to Lady G. I'm LOVING this storyline!

I don't believe she will kill her either. If anything she will end up being almost a "triple agent"!

[KingofCretins]

Another excellent piece of symbolizing... look at the last page again. It's a dagger that's holding Buffy's picture up. Once again, it's a knife that stands between the good Slayer (Faith, now) and the bad (Genevieve). Likewise, again between Faith and Buffy. Excellent, excellent thematic tie together. If Vaughan really wanted to go balls out with the parallels to Season 3, he'd introduce the forehead kiss motif again.

I also need to say... Genevieve is *very* sexy in this issue!

[ThePoet's<3]

:D Another excellent piece of symbolizing... look at the last page again. It's a dagger that's holding Buffy's picture up. Once again, it's a knife that stands between the good Slayer (Faith, now) and the bad (Genevieve). Likewise, again between Faith and Buffy. Excellent, excellent thematic tie together. If Vaughan really wanted to go balls out with the parallels to Season 3, he'd introduce the forehead kiss motif again.

I also need to say... Genevieve is *very* sexy in this issue!

***goes back to look again...nods in agreement*** Very good use of symbolism! And the kiss would be Over the top!

When you look at the pictures - do you also get a feeling that some of them might be taken from a more personal angle?? There are a couple that look as if Buffy is looking directly at the camara - which makes me wonder... Do we have a mole at Slayer Inc?

HHHhhhmmm...Lady G sexy... I guess - if you go in for that two-dimensional look on a girl... :p ;):lol: :D

[KingofCretins]

When you look at the pictures - do you also get a feeling that some of them might be taken from a more personal angle?? There are a couple that look as if Buffy is looking directly at the camara - which makes me wonder... Do we have a mole at Slayer Inc?

That... is a pretty dang good observation. But, I think it's premature to think of whether or not there is a mole in the BHC. If there is, it *better not be a Scooby*. I think it would be kinda lame to go back to the Scooby turns bad well, when we already went their a few different times to some degree.

HHHhhhmmm...Lady G sexy... I guess - if you go in for that two-dimensional look on a girl...

Photos are 2 dimensional, too. And good luck trying to lust after Spike in "After the Fall" after that remark :)

[ThePoet's<3]

That... is a pretty dang good observation. But, I think it's premature to think of whether or not there is a mole in the BHC. If there is, it *better not be a Scooby*. I think it would be kinda lame to go back to the Scooby turns bad well, when we already went their a few different times to some degree.

Seriously?? I'm thinking Satsu. ;) Perhaps she has betrayed the Slayer with a Kiss :kiss:? (maybe Renee - only because she would seem less obvious.)



Photos are 2 dimensional, too. And good luck trying to lust after Spike in "After the Fall" after that remark :)

LOL!! Hey - I said "girl"! I kinda like my guys two-dimensional! (They take up less room in the closet when you fold them up!!:lol: )

(besides - have you seen those demon chicks on the cover of ATF Issue #2? Who could compete with them!:roll: )

[Moscow Watcher]

The Poet's <3
I see Faith in a precarious position however... In aligning herself with this Lady G she could join forces to overthrow Slayer Inc. She will have to finally make that decision - is Buffy "The Slayer" in charge or not??

I've got the impression that both sides are bluffing.

No way could Rodin believe that a slayer woke up in "Hope" the moment his minions attacked her. I mean - he doesn't look stupid. And he ordered his demons to turn Faith to dust when he didn't know she was a slayer. But as soon as he found it out he kept her alive.

And maybe Gigi is also plays up to him because they want to find out more about people who sent Faith.

[sueworld]

Photos are 2 dimensional, too. And good luck trying to lust after Spike in "After the Fall" after that remark

Ha! I'd lust after Spike even if he was presented to us out of silly putty!! :roll:

I haven't received my issue 8 yet, so I'm reserving my judgment about it till then. The first one of this arc has been very good though, better then whats come before. It's still the artwork inside that I have a problem with. Frankly quite horrible when it comes to portraying poor Faith.

[Anon]

I think Faith is going to try to protect Genevieve. Not to assist her, obviously, but she's not going to let Giles or Buffy kill her. She *is* Faith, just like Faith *was* Angel to him, back in "Five by Five" and "Sanctuary".Agreed. I never really thought that Faith was going to kill Genevieve, and this issue certainly backs up my initial impressions.

I've got the impression that both sides are bluffing.

No way could Rodin believe that a slayer woke up in "Hope" the moment his minions attacked her. I mean - he doesn't look stupid. And he ordered his demons to turn Faith to dust when he didn't know she was a slayer. But as soon as he found it out he kept her alive.Not sure about this. He wanted to kill her, but Gigi overruled him.

And maybe Gigi is also plays up to him because they want to find out more about people who sent Faith.Something tells me not. For one thing, why would they? Why would they bother portraying a great big conspiracy without appearing to be aware that Faith's waking up at the time? For a second thing, it's one of those 'super intelligence' theories that relies on both of them being smarter and knowing more than anything shown would suggest.

[KingofCretins]

So far, there's no evidence that Roden knows anything more than what Genevieve is assuming -- that Faith is a Slayer who has no knowledge of what her powers are or what happened to her. Someone who can be molded and shaped into their vision.

If Roden doesn't realize that's not right, he (and by extension, Twilight) are not nearly as omnipresent as Gen. Voll would have liked for us to believe. His demons were certainly paying attention -- I think they grabbed Faith because Faith was about to (albeit with regret) complete her mission at that moment. Presumably, not even Roden noticed what set them off, though, and Genevieve definitely didn't.

I can't just sit around and think of Genevieve as a victim -- she's clearly enjoying the promise of power, and showed very little remorse at attacking her 'fox' Slayer, only at the fact that she killed her so unexpectedly. She certainly looks pleased by the idea of killing Buffy (who knows what she's been told, though). Right now, she doesn't look any more irredeemable than Faith did in Season 3.

Another thought on the 'mole' idea. I recently have seen some debate on Leah's country of origin, based on her accent. While it was first assumed she's Scottish, I've seen arguments that her accent is more consistent with visual representations of Irish, instead. Well, if that's the case, who else do we know that's red-headed and Irish?

I'd hate it, for two reasons, one being that I like Leah, another being that I really hate the mole idea. But, it clearly merits a little attention.

[Impy]

I wonder if it could turn out that Faith is actually Queen of the Slayers and not Buffy. In the show, Faith was "the Slayer" Buffy was just "a Slayer". Since this is Faith's arc I personally consider it as a possibility.

[NileQT87]

the "you want to kill elizabeth?" thing is ironic. buffy's name is a derivative of elizabeth, though that's not her birth name. and it explains why there was a picture of elizabeth I in one of the previous issues, though of course, faith thought she was talking about killing elizabeth II.

and i love that faith is going by the name "hope". of course, her first episode was "faith, hope and trick", which is based on the phrase "faith, hope and pixie dust"... but we finally got a "hope" besides our "faith" and "trick".

[KingofCretins]

Keep in mind, there is no Queen of the Slayers as such. It's not a mystical title or role. It's being used as a term of art to describe Buffy's role as leader of the Slayers she empowered. Genevieve wants to ascend to that role herself.

[NileQT87]

well, yes, i know that the "queen" thing is pretty much a line of crap that roden is feeding gigi. and technically, faith is THE actual slayer, as she was the last of the randomly chosen singular slayers.

but there's been foreshadowing about "elizabeth" and "queen" for several issues now. it's no accident there was a portrait of elizabeth I above buffy's bed, plus the fact that the current queen of england is elizabeth II. there is some comparing of buffy to the two queen elizabeths going on... setting her up as gigi and roden's "queen of the slayers" to go after.

[KingofCretins]

I was more responding to Impy on that one. Faith can't be Queen of the Slayers because there isn't actually such a thing. And, while she might be the 'Slayer of record' under the Slayer line, I don't know if that's likely to be plot significant in this story.

I'm still thinking there's going to be an actual fight between Buffy and Faith here, not a cover or a trick. My hunch is that Buffy is going to be contacted by Giles, whose going to (partially) own up to what's going on, and Buffy is going to go try to take out Genevieve and rescue her. Faith won't let her kill Genevieve is my guess.

On one hand, I'm inclined to guess that Genevieve will be toast by the end of this arc, but I'm starting to hope she's not.

[Jenni Lou]

and i love that faith is going by the name "hope". of course, her first episode was "faith, hope and trick", which is based on the phrase "faith, hope and pixie dust"... but we finally got a "hope" besides our "faith" and "trick".

Well, the Hope in the episode referred to Scott Hope. Didn't it? It's been a while but I am fairly certain of that.

Only two things to mention now cause I don't want to go all out about my thoughts.

1. This issue seems to go by so much quicker the the previous ones. Not sure why. Maybe I just got through it faster cause it was good. :p

2. The Dawn/Willow stuff--while I enjoyed it--seem sort of disjointed. It was just sort of thrown into the middle of the Faith story and felt a little out of place. I was expecting another two or three pages a little later in the issue to return back to them. It wasn't a terrible thing; I just thought it was kind of filler.

[KingofCretins]

I think there was value added in those pages. It would have been better if they could have done something else to convey the "Graduation" flashback in a single page. Then given us an extra page at the BHC.

I wasn't kidding when I said I like seeing Renee interact with someone other than Xander. She helped give us more insight into the mood at the BHC, and reestablished the estrangement of Willow from what she helped create by default. Buffy is "Buffy" to Renee, but Willow is "Ms. Rosenberg".

I feel bad for Dawn, though, she was obviously about to reveal something important to Willow there.

[Jenni Lou]

I agree there was value there. It just felt out of place is all. Like it was just bookended between the Faith story. I just expected to get a little more from Dawn and/or Willow before the issue came to a close.

I do want to know Dawn's secret though! She must totally know what happened to her but is too embarrassed to admit what it is. At least, I think she does. ;)

[KingofCretins]

It could be a hugely convoluted tale, actually. Scott Allie said in the letter column that it could be halfway through Season 8 before we know what happened to her; in calender terms that is more than a year away at least :)

[ThePoet's<3]

I'm still thinking there's going to be an actual fight between Buffy and Faith here, not a cover or a trick. My hunch is that Buffy is going to be contacted by Giles, whose going to (partially) own up to what's going on, and Buffy is going to go try to take out Genevieve and rescue her. Faith won't let her kill Genevieve is my guess.

On one hand, I'm inclined to guess that Genevieve will be toast by the end of this arc, but I'm starting to hope she's not.


I think you are right (broken, broken, broken...record! :D ) about a big fight between Buffy and Faith again. And - although it may start out "fixed" it won't be or end that way.

What I'm speculating is that maybe Faith joins up with Lady G and Giles has to confess what he's doing and Buffy now has to go after two "rogue" Slayers. (I don't believe Faith is rogue but I think Giles and Buffy will entertain it.)

But yeah- I don't look for Lady G to make it out to sunshine. Perhaps a single act of sacrifice on behalf of her friendship with Faith - but that will be all...

However - wouldn't it be something for Faith to "feel" what it's like if getting Lady G out is not a success... She will know what Giles, Angel, Wesley and yes - Buffy have felt about her over these past years at some points in time. That might be the "moment" in time she needs - to become the Slayer in Charge of her on life.

[Jenni Lou]

It could be a hugely convoluted tale, actually. Scott Allie said in the letter column that it could be halfway through Season 8 before we know what happened to her; in calender terms that is more than a year away at least :)

I know! I read that. Insanity! It going to be a looonnng season indeed. I agree with the reader who wrote in that the issues go by far too fast. They really do. I know it takes a lot of time to write and illustrate and print and distribute. Logistically, it's not in the cards, just as more episodes in a tv season isn't either. I just wish they could be longer because, man! I feel like it take me five minuted to get through it! And I do look at the art and everything. :) I guess that's a testament to the quality though; it definitely leaves me wanting more.

[ThePoet's<3]

I'm still thinking there's going to be an actual fight between Buffy and Faith here, not a cover or a trick. My hunch is that Buffy is going to be contacted by Giles, whose going to (partially) own up to what's going on, and Buffy is going to go try to take out Genevieve and rescue her. Faith won't let her kill Genevieve is my guess.

On one hand, I'm inclined to guess that Genevieve will be toast by the end of this arc, but I'm starting to hope she's not.


I think you are right (Sorry to be a broken, broken, broken...record! :D ) about a big fight between Buffy and Faith again. And - although it may start out "fixed" it won't be or end that way. (OOOoooo... Maybe like an "Damages" fight where Faith gets the upper hand?!?)

What I'm speculating is that maybe Faith joins up with Lady G and Giles has to confess what he's doing and Buffy now has to go after two "rogue" Slayers. (I don't believe Faith is rogue but I think Giles and Buffy will entertain it.)

But yeah- I don't look for Lady G to make it out to sunshine. Perhaps a single act of sacrifice on behalf of her friendship with Faith - but that will be all...

However - wouldn't it be something for Faith to "feel" what it's like if getting Lady G out is not a success... She will know what Giles, Angel, Wesley and yes - Buffy have felt about her over these past years at some points in time. That might be the "moment" in time she needs - to become the Slayer in Charge of her own life.

[KingofCretins]

I have hopes for Lady Genevieve... I think she would be a cool recurring character, and I could imagine a scenario that places her in Buffy's group ultimately. I don't know. I don't want to be rid of either her or Faith as characters (Faith's retirement has an awfully permanent sound to it, I mean from a storytelling standpoint, like she gets to retire and then we just don't hear about her after that).

Giles is going to have a lot to answer for at the end of this arc, I think. There's a pretty good amount of evidence that Giles is not being forthcoming with *anyone* on information, and as a result, may have sent Faith into the Savidge Mansion with *no idea* of Lady Genevieve's ties to Twilight. Or, for that matter, that Genevieve is clearly being manipulated and may not be any more malicious than any other teenage girl. The Slayer we saw her kill, she didn't 'intend' to kill with one punch, just like Buffy didn't intend to "kill" Ted.

It's a little less clear if she'd actually killed before; there are references to other girls, but Roden calls that her 'blooding', which I think was mentioned on another thread as meaning her first kill. It certainly means that in less sophisticated circles like gangs.

On the other side, we know that Giles has been out of contact with the BHC -- we don't even know for certain that they had talked to him since first sending him the Twilight symbol. *Before* Amy attacked and Willow was taken. Giles seems to be casting about in the dark and a lot of lives, Slayers' lives, are going to be in danger because of it.

[Jenni Lou]

Excellent points, KoC.

You weren't the only one who saw Genevieve as perhaps something else than a malicious killer. I agree that it is unclear whether she has even killed before. Clearly she is being maneuvered. However, it isn't easy to decipher where the writers are heading. The penultimate page, Lady G is talking about how Roden says she will be queen and have power of this "wretched society." That suggests disdain for society. Then again, she is in the privileged class and obviously looks down on others, so it could be simple semantics to her. It's just quite nebulous how much she knows. But, yes. I could envision a scenario where she learns he truth and joins the good fight.

I, too, think Giles has been meddling with his darker half a bit. He's keeping secrets, staying out of contact, issuing a hit. He's is going to have some things to answer for, I think, and I wonder if he is going to do more damage before a that inevitable confrontation comes.

[vampmogs]

Ah good to be back and talking about the comics again I've been internetless for a week :D

I agree with KingofCretin's theory that Giles will be the one to contact Buffy and lead to the confontation with Faith. Seeing as how he was shut off by Faith I'm betting he thinks she'll do something stupid instead of talking Gigi out so he'll send in Buffy to help her. Question is, does he send Buffy in to kill Gigi or to get Faith out? And how will Buffy react to what is going on?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I got this at the weekend and devoured in one gulp. I’m enjoying this Faith arc a lot. I’m finding the comic generally more pulpy than the show…and I think that works well for Faith. She’s a pulp character (in a good way)…she’s got that old fashioned noirish loner thing going on – half expect to have a scene of her in a bar drinking bourbon and talking out of the side of her mouth - which works for the voiceover approach the comics take.

I liked the parallels between her “friendship” with Buffy and her equally air quoteworthy “friendship” with Lady G. Both involve stabbing, both involve desire for an intimacy that she can’t have…either by circumstance (she’s been sent to kill Lady G) or by whatever caused Faith’s downward spiral in season 3. Faith is defined often by the things she doesn’t have, and this is explored nicely here. She’s in among the “great and good” (loosely defined), wearing a dress that’s really a disguise, an accent that isn’t hers, buddying up with a girl she can’t be friends with.

Or can she? The fortuitous gargoyle attack (bit miffed they didn’t sing…what’s the use of non-singing gargoyles, eh? Though I did like the “I hate Europe” line :)) might’ve given her a chance to save this girl – not just save her from being murdered at her own hands…but Faith may end up with the chance to save Lady G from herself (Lady G’s self, not Faith’s self…this grammar thing is hard on Mondays), and from the people manipulating her.

Might do, not saying this story WILL have a happy ending. But I think that’s the mission here, for Faith: to save the person she was sent to kill. Not that Giles intended that, but I think it’s the quest bit of the story, the shot at redemption for Faith.

Giles is a BAD DOG. He needs a good kennelling by Buffy. I really really really want to see the scene where she confronts him about this. Perhaps all the scoobies confront him. Soon please! Hmm…you don’t think it’s a test, do you? Giles is testing Faith, seeing if she’ll do it?

The line where Faith says she never would’ve lost a wink over this in the past…I don’t think that’s true. I mean, I think she’s lying to herself, trying to gear herself up to do this awful thing. I don’t think it’s bad or out of character writing, I think it’s Faith not knowing herself, and not wanting to be herself in this moment…she needs to feel like that KD Lang song: “I’ve been outside myself for so long, every feeling I had’s close to gone”.

Speaking of KD Lang…what Joss taketh with one hand (Faith saying she wouldn’t go “downtown” on a chick) he giveth with the other. Total slash vibes between these two girls and that’s not even counting the bathing scene from the next comic…hmm, bit exploity there…but still…Faithslash!. There’s something about two people who want to kill each other that’s always going to be hot. In the Jossverse, that is. It’s not just vampires who confuse sex and death…it’s a slayer thing too.

Some of the Brit stuff was off in places…eg “can I bum a fag”…ok, you MIGHT say that. But you’d be far more likely to say “Can I scab a fag” or “Can I ponce a fag”. But neither of those have the cheap joke factor!

And Faith and the bad slayer liking Amy Winehouse? Seriously? Does she also read Heat and care about the Beckhams’ marriage??? I mean, I like the Wino myself, but I'm 29!

I’m putting Lady G’s not-exactly-the-latest-thing music taste down to being locked up by the irish chap. But Faith? Should be a leetle more cutting edge, no? But perhaps she doesn’t get out much either?

[vampmogs]

I got this at the weekend and devoured in one gulp. I’m enjoying this Faith arc a lot. I’m finding the comic generally more pulpy than the show…and I think that works well for Faith. She’s a pulp character (in a good way)…she’s got that old fashioned noirish loner thing going on – half expect to have a scene of her in a bar drinking bourbon and talking out of the side of her mouth - which works for the voiceover approach the comics take.

I think the voiceover works really well for Faith. Generally I don't want to see it happen often, I'm glad that it didn't happen with Buffy heaps in 'The Long Way Home' only when it was needed. With Faith though we need to know what is going on in her head here because she has never been one to voice her inner troubles with others. Being in this situation she has to become a different person, if we didn't get inside her head we'd only be seeing the person Faith is pretending to be so it'd be harder to get an insight into what Faith is actually feeling.

I liked the parallels between her “friendship” with Buffy and her equally air quoteworthy “friendship” with Lady G. Both involve stabbing, both involve desire for an intimacy that she can’t have…either by circumstance (she’s been sent to kill Lady G) or by whatever caused Faith’s downward spiral in season 3. Faith is defined often by the things she doesn’t have, and this is explored nicely here. She’s in among the “great and good” (loosely defined), wearing a dress that’s really a disguise, an accent that isn’t hers, buddying up with a girl she can’t be friends with.

Some said it was a waste to have the flashback to the Graduation Battle because it wasted valuable pages, but I think it was needed and loved it. What I loved especially was when Faith says "They hurt you, you hurt them, or maybe it is the other way around." As you know I have a hard time sympathising with Faith around this period in her life and hate that Buffy comes out like the bitch to some people after giving Faith so many chances. What I love about this line is that Faith acknowledges that this isn't Buffy's fault, it was hers in many ways and she hurt Buffy first not the other way around.

Or can she? The fortuitous gargoyle attack (bit miffed they didn’t sing…what’s the use of non-singing gargoyles, eh? Though I did like the “I hate Europe” line :)) might’ve given her a chance to save this girl – not just save her from being murdered at her own hands…but Faith may end up with the chance to save Lady G from herself (Lady G’s self, not Faith’s self…this grammar thing is hard on Mondays), and from the people manipulating her.

The synopsis given for Issue #4 is slayers battle to the death in this thrilling conclusion. So wether this means Faith or Gigi I'm not sure, but it leads me to believe that Faith will reach that point, wether she'll end up going through with it is debatable. Interestingly, a lot of us are speculating that in the end Faith won't be able to kill Gigi but I could just as easily see the situation with Gigi about to kill Faith then deciding not to. Though if Gigi keeps calling my Buffy "a slag" then I hope she is in for a world of pain :D

Giles is a BAD DOG. He needs a good kennelling by Buffy. I really really really want to see the scene where she confronts him about this. Perhaps all the scoobies confront him. Soon please! Hmm…you don’t think it’s a test, do you? Giles is testing Faith, seeing if she’ll do it?

I'm not sure Giles is as bad as we are led to believe. In the preview pages for Issue #8 Giles seems genuingly concerned about Faith, which at least indicates that Faith isn't merley a tool in his eyes to reach a certain goal. What I liked in this issue was that Faith says she is a dick to every guy who is ever nice to her. Just because Faith sees her position as someone who does dirty deeds done cheap, doesn't mean everyone else does, including Giles. What I noticed in these preview pages is that Giles says that Faith "was born to do this." Now I'm not sure if he is simply refering to her being chosen as a slayer or something else but I'm starting to think that whoever has foretold Gigi ending the world may have also mentioned Faith directly. Remember in Issue 6 when he says that other girls were better suited for the role but the reason he chose Faith was- and then she attacked him with the forke. Perhaps Faith has been mentioned specifically as the one chosen to stop Gigi, perhaps it has been in a prophecy that this is her role only. It'd be nice in some ways to show that Faith is important, that this job has a deeper meaning for her other than simply being the go to girl when dirty deeds need done. Just a thought.

The line where Faith says she never would’ve lost a wink over this in the past…I don’t think that’s true. I mean, I think she’s lying to herself, trying to gear herself up to do this awful thing. I don’t think it’s bad or out of character writing, I think it’s Faith not knowing herself, and not wanting to be herself in this moment…she needs to feel like that KD Lang song: “I’ve been outside myself for so long, every feeling I had’s close to gone”.

I don't think Faith lost a wink over poisoning Angel or killing Proffesor Worth. I think at this point she was so emotionally attatched to the Mayor that she finally had found her place, she was perfectly comfortable with who she was.

Some of the Brit stuff was off in places…eg “can I bum a fag”…ok, you MIGHT say that. But you’d be far more likely to say “Can I scab a fag” or “Can I ponce a fag”. But neither of those have the cheap joke factor!

Really? I come from England and go back there often as all my family still live their and I've never heard them use such expressions but have heard them say "bum" something. Perhaps it is different for different ares.

And Faith and the bad slayer liking Amy Winehouse? Seriously? Does she also read Heat and care about the Beckhams’ marriage??? I mean, I like the Wino myself, but I'm 29!

I’m putting Lady G’s not-exactly-the-latest-thing music taste down to being locked up by the irish chap. But Faith? Should be a leetle more cutting edge, no? But perhaps she doesn’t get out much either?

Or perhaps this is simply a nice insight into Faith's character? I don't think anyone had guessed Angel was into Manalow until it was revealed. I think Faith's bad ass attitude is kind of like Spikes, a lot for show. I think it is cool she likes Winehouse. :lol:

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Off to lunch but just quickly....mogs, I may be wrong about the bum thing. It's just I've not heard anyone of that type say it...and wouldn't use it myself. But yup, could be local variation, or even friendship group variation?

Maybe I have heard it and forgotten??

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Some said it was a waste to have the flashback to the Graduation Battle because it wasted valuable pages, but I think it was needed and loved it.

Me too!


As you know I have a hard time sympathising with Faith around this period in her life and hate that Buffy comes out like the bitch to some people after giving Faith so many chances.

I didn’t know that, actually. Personally I didn’t have much sympathy with either of them when it comes to the fight…I think they’re both wrong. Cos, you know…violence doesn’t solve anything (except when it comes to killing demons ;)).

What I love about this line is that Faith acknowledges that this isn't Buffy's fault, it was hers in many ways and she hurt Buffy first not the other way around.

Yes – she’s worked out that buffy isn’t the source of all her problems.

I’ll come talk about the spoilerish stuff in that ep thread so I don’t get confused and spoil accidentally!



I'm not sure Giles is as bad as we are led to believe.

I’d only think that if he didn’t intend Faith to kill Gigi at all, if it was a ploy…actually, he’d still be awful! All round, I think Giles needs every square inch of his ass kicked for this particular plot. I’m still not convinced he was right to kill Ben. Not completely convinced in the other direction either. But…that, for me, was a grey area deal.. While this one is a Just Plain Wrong deal. Gigi hasn’t even demonstrated how dangerous she might be – it’s based on prophecies, which experience tells are not to be relied upon…I think that’s a lot of my issue with it. For me, it runs so counter to the spirit of what Buffy stands for…it’s the Old World of watchers making decisions on behalf of other people, not the New World Order of choice and freedom. But also, using Faith as his instrument…even if it’s part of a prophecy…in a way that makes it even worse for me…Giles mate, that’s a SELF FULFILLING prophecy!



I don't think Faith lost a wink over poisoning Angel or killing Proffesor Worth. I think at this point she was so emotionally attatched to the Mayor that she finally had found her place, she was perfectly comfortable with who she was.

I disagree. She was a complete mess – as shown by her meltdown in LA when she got there. But she was, imo, in deep denial in season 3…so I suppose you could say she didn’t lose a wink, but that’s only cos she was storing up the hurt. Depends how immediately you’re talking about re the wink loss :D



Really? I come from England and go back there often as all my family still live their and I've never heard them use such expressions but have heard them say "bum" something. Perhaps it is different for different ares.

So, I asked around and it turns out it is pretty much a “just me then” question. Plenty of people do use “bum”. Still, ponce and scab are more likely, imo. Bum still sounds more American to me…but, again, might just be me. :D


Or perhaps this is simply a nice insight into Faith's character? I don't think anyone had guessed Angel was into Manalow until it was revealed. I think Faith's bad ass attitude is kind of like Spikes, a lot for show. I think it is cool she likes Winehouse. :lol:

I guess it’s cool that it’s not cool, if you know what I mean…the idea of Faith having this really mainstream taste in music’s rather sweet, I agree. :D And the other girl probably doesn’t get out much as I said.

[vampmogs]

I didn’t know that, actually. Personally I didn’t have much sympathy with either of them when it comes to the fight…I think they’re both wrong. Cos, you know…violence doesn’t solve anything (except when it comes to killing demons ;)).