I mock you with my monkey pants! Fanfic discussion thread

[KingofCretins]

Restarting from main site. I'll re-ask the same question I asked on BuffyWorld: does anyone that's written in both have thoughts on the merits of a screenplay vs. narrative prose style for a virtual season?

[Llywela]

Interesting question. I remember asking something similar a long, long time ago.

I've written both. I prefer narrative, but did write a story set in the Wishverse as a script, mostly as an experiment with the format, and found that there are pros and cons to both.

With script I found it a blessing to be able to intercut scenes rapidly in a way that could never happen in the narrative style! It's a fairly minimalist format - you have to work hard at showing what's going on, laying it all out for your viewers in as visual a manner as possible while writing (if that makes sense), just stage directions and dialogue. It keeps you honest, because you have to make sure that those directions and dialogue carry all the exposition your readers are going to need. Whereas narrative is a much richer format because it allows you to really get into the nitty gritty of analysing the emotions and motivations of the characters, following their thought processes and describing events and thoughts in as much depth as you want. Plus, you can cheat a bit with the exposition, slipping it into the odd establishing paragraph here and there, instead of having to make your characters spell it all out ;)

[KingofCretins]

I've never attempted to write a screenplay before, other than the quite bastardized version I use to do the Season 8 transcripts, so it's a bit intimidating.

[Llywela]

I would say 'go look at the 'official buffyworld season 8 in archives' because that's a great example of how to write script really well :) But alas you can't, because the stupid forum is down again. :rolleyes:

[Wolfie Gilmore]

So, transferring talk from the VIP...tangent mentioned something about a Norse-connected Buffy/Who fic...?

At the moment I'm mulling over various Who crossover options. I think what's attracting me to xovers so much at the moment with Who is that, because the season hasn't finished yet, I'm loath to dive in in case my story gets "disproved" (if you know what I mean) by what's to come...but with a Crossover, I feel like I'm going outside the canon anyway so, doesn't matter so much.

Mulling over ideas at the moment such as...

- Doctor regenerates as a woman (Tamsin Greig!), gets Xander as a companion (because I think Xander sparks off women well, and I've always wanted to see a female doctor).

- Jack/Xander slash (though not sure I can bothered to write that...somehow, mind can fill in the blanks already so, why write it down!)

- Xander/10 fic exploring ten's humanity, with reference to Xander's experiences with Willow and Buffy and their humanity or lack thereof...would be a bit talky though, but interesting. There should be a name for this...for discursive fic...kind of almost an essay, but with characters talking...hmmm...

Then again, I'm quite keen on doing some more just season 8 fics or straight doctor who fics.

[tangent]

Hah found it.

Really should be sticky this thread, Anyhoo i have been mightily inspired by the excellent drabbles and ficlets regarding dr who that have appeared on here.

I was thinking of writing a longer crossover Buffy/DW peice. Specifically i can see a Nordic sort of themecoming through from DW, wioth the fire and ice, coming storm thing. Just seems very...mythic to me.

anyon agree or have i finally flipped?

[KingofCretins]

I've got a couple of Season 8 fic ideas in mind, one dealing with Giles finding out about Ethan being murdered.

[tangent]

At the moment I'm mulling over various Who crossover options. I think what's attracting me to xovers so much at the moment with Who is that, because the season hasn't finished yet, I'm loath to dive in in case my story gets "disproved" (if you know what I mean) by what's to come...but with a Crossover, I feel like I'm going outside the canon anyway so, doesn't matter so much.

The thing to me that makes DW such a juicy choice for X-over is that it's very hard to be disproved. You could set the story with any doctor and theres nothing to say that it hasn't happened at some point but we just haven't seen it. You can mess about with time and causality cos he does.

Having said that the only thing that could be held sacred are regenerations. We know that thus far he only gets 13. we also know all 10 that he has had. Of course there's nothing to say waht weould happen if he slipped into a different dimesion.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I was thinking of writing a longer crossover Buffy/DW peice. Specifically i can see a Nordic sort of themecoming through from DW, wioth the fire and ice, coming storm thing. Just seems very...mythic to me.

anyon agree or have i finally flipped?

Not at all...there's definitely something of the Loki in the Doctor. Go with it! I see the Doc as much more mythic than Buffy. Buffy subverts myth...the Doctor does sometimes too...but not as much as she does.

I've got a couple of Season 8 fic ideas in mind, one dealing with Giles finding out about Ethan being murdered.

That is a BRILLIANT idea, would love to read his reactions to that. Please!

[tangent]

Here's a couple of general questions re ficcing and writing in general.

I have been accused by some of a certain, how can i put it... mopiness in my fics which seems to be something i can't help. Anyone any tips on how this can be balanced?

also i recently wrote a none ficcy piece fro a competion but never got the chance to enter it, can't get on to my LJ site to post it there. Anyone any ideas? (It's a sci-fi piece.0

[Wolfie Gilmore]

The thing to me that makes DW such a juicy choice for X-over is that it's very hard to be disproved. You could set the story with any doctor and theres nothing to say that it hasn't happened at some point but we just haven't seen it. You can mess about with time and causality cos he does.

True...though I feel you do need to respect emotional continuity. I don't know much about previous Who's (can't remember a lot of detail from when IWas a kid, and have only seen the odd Tom Baker), but with 9 and 10, definitely would need to respect their different arcs. But yeah, could fit a lot within that and still feel canony.


Having said that the only thing that could be held sacred are regenerations. We know that thus far he only gets 13. we also know all 10 that he has had. Of course there's nothing to say waht weould happen if he slipped into a different dimesion.

Maybe if 13 was a woman, she could have kids? Do we know how timelords reproduce??

[KingofCretins]

Try writing a short fic about something benign and fun. A Season 2 fic of the gang watching a movie or something.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Here's a couple of general questions re ficcing and writing in general.

I have been accused by some of a certain, how can i put it... mopiness in my fics which seems to be something i can't help. Anyone any tips on how this can be balanced?

Add some jokes. Add some more jokes. Then some more. :D That's what makes Buffy great...it never mopes for long, always moving along to the funny from the sad. Ok, most of the time.


also i recently wrote a none ficcy piece fro a competion but never got the chance to enter it, can't get on to my LJ site to post it there. Anyone any ideas? (It's a sci-fi piece.0

Why don't you post it here?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Try writing a short fic about something benign and fun. A Season 2 fic of the gang watching a movie or something.

That's a good idea. Or a simple demon fighting fic - with the gang working together. Teamwork is unangsty.

[KingofCretins]

Write that, then re-read it to see if it is at all mopey.

[tangent]

Thanks guy's great advice. I have feelings of inspiriness.

can we post non ficcy stuffe here? thought it might be against the rules? (one warning if i so the first word in the reply on it fom my lovely beta was: bleak!:))

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Thanks guy's great advice. I have feelings of inspiriness.

can we post non ficcy stuffe here? thought it might be against the rules? (one warning if i so the first word in the reply on it fom my lovely beta was: bleak!:))

Hmm....maybe post elsewhere in the misc section? But I'm not bothered by fic that's not fan in the fic section...what do others think? Could ask nikki?

I'm musing on my Doctor-regenerates-as-woman fic, and figuring that, as the regenerations get towards the final numbers, the process becomes unstable, ergo sex change.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Add some jokes. Add some more jokes. Then some more. :D That's what makes Buffy great...it never mopes for long, always moving along to the funny from the sad. Ok, most of the time.

Jokes are good. Buffy jokes are hard. I've been trying to work out like a classification system for the types of jokes that seem authentic Buffy. For example there are the classic take something literal jokes and the mispronounce something so it sounds bad jokes. I have also been noticing that often what made something funny on the screen was more in the delivery of the line than in the words. Which of course only makes the task of the fan fic writer tougher.

Thanks guy's great advice. I have feelings of inspiriness.
can we post non ficcy stuffe here? thought it might be against the rules? (one warning if i so the first word in the reply on it fom my lovely beta was: bleak!:))

Bleak isn't necessarily a bad thing. Your beta might just like bleak.;)


So I've discovered that I have a horrible hard time coming up with an interesting back plot. You know, I know where I want the characters to go and even the steps that get them there, but the causes are hard. I feel like I'm just going "hmmm ok so there's some baddies and what are they doing-well something bad that allows character A to say a snazzy line that I already wrote and makes character b mad enough to do that thing I want him to do. But why are the baddies doing these things? " Does anyone else have this problem? Or even better does anyone have a ton of back plot ideas they would like to share?

[KingofCretins]

What are you shopping for, DK? I am pretty good at backstory and phlebotenum.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I know that my baddies (there's a group of them) are willing to go to any lengths to get something (don't know what) back from the slayers. Meaning the slayers have something of theirs. I know that they are going to cause some pretty serious damage. What I need is a who they are and what they want. What exactly did the Slayers take from them? I am trying to avoid the obvious: they are plotting to take over this dimension and need that to bring back their demon god or such.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I know that my baddies (there's a group of them) are willing to go to any lengths to get something (don't know what) back from the slayers. Meaning the slayers have something of theirs. I know that they are going to cause some pretty serious damage. What I need is a who they are and what they want. What exactly did the Slayers take from them? I am trying to avoid the obvious: they are plotting to take over this dimension and need that to bring back their demon god or such.

How about...sacred vessel/jewel they need in order to survive? Survival, always a good motivation. Some kind of renewey thing that restores their life force? You could do some interesting parallels with essence of slayerness?

Hey, maybe one of them is the demon that the original watchers stole the black ooze of slayerness from? They cannot be whole without it? It was stolen from their tribe by the watchers and now they want payback.

Cue Giles being captured and tortured. Always good for some angst :D

[KingofCretins]

Maybe they want the scythe? I could see a number of interested parties -- remnants of the Knights of Byzantium, even.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Jokes are good. Buffy jokes are hard. I've been trying to work out like a classification system for the types of jokes that seem authentic Buffy. For example there are the classic take something literal jokes and the mispronounce something so it sounds bad jokes. I have also been noticing that often what made something funny on the screen was more in the delivery of the line than in the words. Which of course only makes the task of the fan fic writer tougher.



As with many jokes, it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it. Given that you can't use the actors' facial expressions etc, you still have their way od speaking/speech patterns to work with. I think writing good buffy jokes is part of good characterisation...the jokes come from the character being put in a particular situation, and tapping into how they'd realistically respond to that situation.

EG you can play on Buffy's anxieties about being too schoolmarmish/mom-ish, her relationship issues, her dislike of people who claim to have power/authority over her...her ability to turn things on their heads.

Or, with Willow, her babble-fests and her occasional moments of innocence, but then have her come out with something dark/dirty at unexpected moments.

Or, with Xander, his insecurities/self deprecation, but also his ability to sum up complex ideas in a reductive way, that can often be funny (though doesn't sound funny when I write it like that...).

With Giles, I think the trick is to capture his sometimes-clipped-sometimes-verbose way of speaking. He's very succinct sometimes, others, he uses too many words. I think a classic Giles line is, in response to Anya talking about his "Sex friend" in season 4...

"Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could've said"

I can't put my finger on why that's so funny, but part of it is that it seems so very Giles-y. The Britishness of "appalling" perhaps...

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Maybe they want the scythe? I could see a number of interested parties -- remnants of the Knights of Byzantium, even.

That could be a way of getting back the demon ooze...or, I think I read a fic where someone wanted to reverse the slayer spell. Hmm...maybe wrote one!

[Dorian's Kitten]

How about...sacred vessel/jewel they need in order to survive? Survival, always a good motivation. Some kind of renewey thing that restores their life force? You could do some interesting parallels with essence of slayerness?

Hey, maybe one of them is the demon that the original watchers stole the black ooze of slayerness from? They cannot be whole without it? It was stolen from their tribe by the watchers and now they want payback.

Cue Giles being captured and tortured. Always good for some angst :D

Interestingly enough, the whole reason I need the baddies is to capture someone else and cause some angst. :laughbounce:

Maybe they want the scythe? I could see a number of interested parties -- remnants of the Knights of Byzantium, even.

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I definitely feel some inspiration coming on.

[Veverka]

Just want to interrupt briefly to say, who would be up for a fanfic challenge? We had one going on BW but it had fallen by the wayside a bit, and the attempt to restart, amongst other things, was kinda marred by all the downtime.

If I get a bit of response I'll start a challenge!!!

[KingofCretins]

EndersWrath had a challenge that was due a few weeks ago, but the downtime postponed any others from starting. I would love to sign up to issue a challenge.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I could be up to a challenge. Picture my hand raised eagerly.

[ferdy-m]

I could be up to a challenge. Picture my hand raised eagerly.

PM Jo (Llywela) on this - she's the responsible adult for us in Fanfic (ooh, sorry, Jo :( ...)

[Llywela]

PM Jo (Llywela) on this - she's the responsible adult for us in Fanfic (ooh, sorry, Jo :( ...)
*hyperventilates* Responsible adult? Me? Oh, um, okay...

If there's enough interest to make it worth running challenges here, there is no reason why we shouldn't. The running order and all the rules and everything at BW are completely inaccessible at the moment and we have no way of knowing how long that is likely to continue :(

But if there is enough interest to make a challenge worthwhile, why not? :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I'd be interested in doing a (not too complicated!) challenge, for sure!

[tangent]

count me in

I wouldn't mind trying my hand at a challenge at all.

[Llywela]

Would a separate challenge section would be needed at this stage? We could have a pinned thread containing the challenge topic, and entries could be labelled clearly, as on the other forum? Or is a section needed?

Damn, are we going to have to draw up new rules and regs? :confused3:

[KingofCretins]

I like how it was on BuffyWorld... a sub-forum with one pinned thread for general rules and sign up, and another for the challenges themselves to be posted.

As far as forum rules, I liked the requirement to tag slash and rating, I liked the rule about only judging your own if you have published fic. I don't see there being a reason to limit the content, although I think that if we allow crossovers, it has to be crossovers that connect to the Buffyverse or Jossverse at least. That's what brought everyone to the party, so it's going to be the fic that most people can enjoy.

[Dorian's Kitten]

This all makes sense to me. I think that the rules can be pretty much the same as at the "old place". I am psyched to get some new challenges going.

[Willow's Tara]

Guess this might be the right place, has anyone ever written a story with a real life Buffy/Angel etc star in it? If so what sort?

Well I have plenty with Amber Benson in it, but it's sort of a series really (Not sure if it would be good enough to show here, I also have a R rated story that called Friends and Family). I have also written stories with all cast members in it, um Adam Busch has appeared in a few as Amber's husband (Up until I found out they broke it off, still deciding if in a series if I will have them break up as well).
So does anyone else write one? In a story called The Bewitched, The Wicked and The Cursed (Including other ones linked to it) Amber Benson is a Goddess, she has triplets named Amber-Kate and Zoey as well.

[Dorian's Kitten]

So, a confession: I definitely started writing my own fic before I really started reading fan fic. I had looked at a couple of pieces, but really I was a bit clueless about the entire fan fic universe.
I had a story, felt like maybe it was time to try my hand at fiction and started typing. Also I really only expected it to be the one story, indulgent and personal. I was throughly shocked when I found that I wasn't done. Still surprised to find myself so full of story.
Anyway-I read a few pieces here (well at BW really) before I posted, it only seemed fair. But really I hadn't ventured out into the fan fic world. A great piece recommended by The Poet's <3 led me to do so this week. Several hours of reading has left me quite shocked. Fan fic is an odd thing. First off, wow there's a lot of it! Also a lot of it is really really dirty. Seriously, even the naughty stuff here just couldn't have prepared me. I also found that there was a lot of common themes and scenarios. I'm a Spuffy but I don't think I can read another happy "we love each other" missing scene from Chosen. Well maybe one if someone could get the voices right. But anyway, I will here by promise to resist the temptation to write that scene myself.
Anyway, the point, and there was one, was to ask how involved our other writers were/are in the fan fic universe. Did you read a lot before you started writing? Did you/do you write for other fandoms? Do you write non fandom pieces, meaning do you consider yourself a writer or a fan fic writer -is there a difference?

[KingofCretins]

Also a lot of it is really really dirty.

:drinkup: :twak: :boff: :1pet:

I read a ton of fanfic before I tried to write any. I read a lot of the dirty ones, and you're right, most of them are self-indulgent. Probably all of them. The best you can hope for in that type of writing is avoiding PWP.

I'd say there is definitely a difference between "writing" and "fanfic writing". The biggest difference, to me, is characterization. In fanfic, pretty much your entire audience knows who the characters are. What they look like, what motivates them, what they are thinking without being told. As a writer, that gets you off the hook for a *lot* of stuff. In original fiction, you have to introduce all those things for the reader, and it can be very difficult. In fanfic, that's already done and all you have to do to be appreciated is not wildly deviate from what is known.

I have written a number of short stories, none of which are truly spectacular, but all essentially original fiction. I haven't written them in a long, long time, though. I find writing fanfic is slowly motivating me back toward writing stuff of my own, because it's helping me remember (or learn, in the case of longer fiction, like "Game of Love") how to pace a story, how to set things up that will matter, etc. There are plenty of articles out there that talk about how fanfic is a way to hone the craft of writing. Many of the Buffy writers also write fanfic.

[Dorian's Kitten]

:drinkup: :twak: :boff: :1pet:

I read a ton of fanfic before I tried to write any. I read a lot of the dirty ones, and you're right, most of them are self-indulgent. Probably all of them. The best you can hope for in that type of writing is avoiding PWP.

a lot of them huh ;)

I'd say there is definitely a difference between "writing" and "fanfic writing". The biggest difference, to me, is characterization. In fanfic, pretty much your entire audience knows who the characters are. What they look like, what motivates them, what they are thinking without being told. As a writer, that gets you off the hook for a *lot* of stuff. In original fiction, you have to introduce all those things for the reader, and it can be very difficult. In fanfic, that's already done and all you have to do to be appreciated is not wildly deviate from what is known.

Interesting. In a way though I think it could be just as challenging to write good fan fic since different people have very different ideas about what motivates the characters. Getting the stuff down in a way thats seems plausible to a wide number of viewers could be harder than inventing our own people. Presuming you know for sure what motivates your own characters.


I have written a number of short stories, none of which are truly spectacular, but all essentially original fiction. I haven't written them in a long, long time, though. I find writing fanfic is slowly motivating me back toward writing stuff of my own, because it's helping me remember (or learn, in the case of longer fiction, like "Game of Love") how to pace a story, how to set things up that will matter, etc. There are plenty of articles out there that talk about how fanfic is a way to hone the craft of writing. Many of the Buffy writers also write fanfic.

Really...good to know. Do you know where any of it is? Anyway I am kind of hoping that the fan fic will help me hone my skills. I have a non-fandom story that I'm sort of developing. (It is in it's infancy-but a couple of the characters have started chatting with me.)

[tangent]

I'd say there is definitely a difference between "writing" and "fanfic writing". The biggest difference, to me, is characterization. In fanfic, pretty much your entire audience knows who the characters are. What they look like, what motivates them, what they are thinking without being told. As a writer, that gets you off the hook for a *lot* of stuff. In original fiction, you have to introduce all those things for the reader, and it can be very difficult. In fanfic, that's already done and all you have to do to be appreciated is not wildly deviate from what is known.


That's very true, however i also think it'a a double edged sword. As you say people know buffy and spike and xander et al so if your gonna write them you have to write them. If you slip up and your giles is completely un-giles like and does things he would never do in a million years then you are writing for an audience that will immediately spot that and will judge you accordingly.

The rules and history are there and i agree that makes things easier in a way but by golly you'd better get them right.

As for the rest i'm not a big reader of fic away from here. A lot of of it seems to be wish fulfillment and too shippy for me. Here there seems to be a lot more variety in what gets written (plus there's some excellent writers which helps) maybe i've been spoiled or maybe i've not been to the right sites but there's more than enough to keep me interested here.

[KingofCretins]

a lot of them huh

See what ha-happened was...

Really...good to know. Do you know where any of it is? Anyway I am kind of hoping that the fan fic will help me hone my skills. I have a non-fandom story that I'm sort of developing. (It is in it's infancy-but a couple of the characters have started chatting with me.)

I'm certain any they've published is under a pseudonym, but several of the writers have referred to their own fanfic in episode commentaries.

I think the pitfalls of having to stay true to known characters are not nearly the writing challenge as having to completely invent and sell a new character on the page while still having the narrative flow along.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I'm certain any they've published is under a pseudonym, but several of the writers have referred to their own fanfic in episode commentaries.

Guess it's a good thing I have a crazy username. Ah blissful anonymity will later save my fabulous writing career.
What kind of fan fic do you suppose they wrote? Speculation anyone? I'm thinking Bond and Star Trek.

I think the pitfalls of having to stay true to known characters are not nearly the writing challenge as having to completely invent and sell a new character on the page while still having the narrative flow along.

Maybe, but I feel like when you invent a character they represent a part of your own personality. And with only you writing them it would be easier to stay consistent or at least develop along the path you've chosen for them.

[KingofCretins]

No, they write *Buffy* fanfic in addition to their duties writing canon Buffy. Those are the kinds of references you get, things like "I didn't get a chance to do that, I'll probably use it in a fanfic". I think Petrie and Espensen have both admitted to fanfic writing.

Be careful of inserting *too* much of yourself or risk committing that most loathed of fiction writing mistakes... the Mary Sue.

[Dorian's Kitten]

No, they write *Buffy* fanfic in addition to their duties writing canon Buffy. Those are the kinds of references you get, things like "I didn't get a chance to do that, I'll probably use it in a fanfic". I think Petrie and Espensen have both admitted to fanfic writing.[quote=KingofCretins;17436]

Now I will be obsessed with trying to find them. I will have to read everything and compare writing styles. As Spike once said "Oh god no. Please no." Cause I need a new obsession like I need...I don't know what I need less.

[quote=KingofCretins;17449] Be careful of inserting *too* much of yourself or risk committing that most loathed of fiction writing mistakes... the Mary Sue.

I was thinking more of like aspects of your personality. Like your inner bitch, push-over, control freak, slacker, fighter, etc.

[Rosamunde]

Anyway, the point, and there was one, was to ask how involved our other writers were/are in the fan fic universe. Did you read a lot before you started writing? Did you/do you write for other fandoms? Do you write non fandom pieces, meaning do you consider yourself a writer or a fan fic writer -is there a difference?

Ooh great question!

I've been involved in fandom and fanfic for so long I've almost forgotten how it all started. I've definitely written a lot less then I have read. I've read so much fanfiction, in many fandoms, randing from the terrible to stories that were better than a lot of published novels I've read (there's one story in the Harry Potter fandom that is so much better than the books it was based on!)

I think I started reading/writing at the same time, but as I read and wrote more my writing got a lot better!

I don't see a difference between being a writer and a fanfic writer, thought I know those who would argue with that. Some of the best fanfic writers I know write fanfic and only fanfic: but their fanfic is so damn good I would count it as being "proper" writing (for want of a better word!) Personally, I'm not sure whether I count myself as a writer or not, but I do write every day, whether it be fanfic or original fic!

That's very true, however i also think it'a a double edged sword. As you say people know buffy and spike and xander et al so if your gonna write them you have to write them. If you slip up and your giles is completely un-giles like and does things he would never do in a million years then you are writing for an audience that will immediately spot that and will judge you accordingly.

I think the process of writing fanfic is completely different from the process of writing original fic. You already have those multi-layered world with its (generally!) rounded characters, and that brings in a whole new dynamic to your writing. Although there is the constraint of trying to write the characters properly, I think you're also doing something different: you're adding to a world, changing its fabric or slipping in between the threads. I think, to write good fanfic, you have to have a lot of subtlety. Understanding your characters is absolutely vital, but it's also about expanding on those characters in a believable and sympathetic way, whether you are writing just a vignette about a moment in a character's life or a plot-heavy roller coaster.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Anyway, the point, and there was one, was to ask how involved our other writers were/are in the fan fic universe. Did you read a lot before you started writing? Did you/do you write for other fandoms? Do you write non fandom pieces, meaning do you consider yourself a writer or a fan fic writer -is there a difference?

I started reading and writing fanfic more or less at the same time - for the Buffy fandom. Also read a lot of Smallville, and wrote quite a bit. Now write some Doctor Who, and just did a House/Buffy crossovers. I love crossovers, they sum up what fanfic's all about for me - a fun funny game with dollies :D

Though, I also did (some of) a season 8 of Buffy, which was aiming at something different. On the whole when I write fanfic, it's either to scratch an itch, in terms of something I'd like to see happen (two characters meeting, and that's especially true of crossovers, or two characters getting together, or just a particular scenario I thought would be interesting). It's about seeing things I didn't get to see on screen.

But writing a virtual season was more about trying to think "what if I was actually a writer for this show, what would I do with a season, with character arcs" etc. IE I (and the other writers) were trying to write fanfic that wasn't fanficky...if that makes sense.

The "fanficky" quality for me is about revelling in fandom, and often being self indulgent with it, cos you can...cos you can do what you like, it's fun, it's play.

I do approach fanfic and non fanfic writing differently, quite often. Aside from that season 8 thing and the odd fanfic where I really think hard about it. There's something more spontaneous about fanfic writing cos the pressure's off. I think less about my reader (sorry!) and more just about the enjoyment of the writing.

Hmm...now I think about it, that's perhaps something that would be good to carry over into my non fanfic writing. Cos, joy can be good, it can come across in the writing. Notthat I'm joyless in my non fanfic, but, I should probably lighten up a bit.

IN fanfic, I'm mostly concerned with capturing the voices of characters, and things like description tend to be only briefly done. Actually, I'm never very interested in description, have to force myself to do it in any context. Maybe fanfic lets me off the hook, cos you all know what the characters - and often their environments - look like.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I want to write some fanfic this weekend but not sure what about. Hmm...have a feeling Doctor Who might inspire me, but not sure yet. Are there any Buffy characters you'd like to read a story about? Any particular season? I seem to be doing mostly season 8 stuff at the moment, but are there any old school Buffy moments you think could stand to have more written about them?

Maybe I'll do another shipper fic for the challenge. When's the deadline for that?

[Dorian's Kitten]

The deadline is still a good bit off-middle of July I believe.

I miss Oz, I mean I loved Tara and all but when I think good old school Buffy-I think Oz. Think you got an Oz fic in ya?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

The deadline is still a good bit off-middle of July I believe.

I miss Oz, I mean I loved Tara and all but when I think good old school Buffy-I think Oz. Think you got an Oz fic in ya?

Tough one...maybe I should give it a go? He's not someone I'd naturally write about, but that could be a good challenge. Maybe Oz on his travels somewhere, or meeting up with the scoobs some time during the season 8. Hmm...

Thanks re challenge, that gives a while.

[tangent]

you could always have another look at Five got to hellmouth island;)

If not i reckon one of those crossover pieces you do so well.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

you could always have another look at Five got to hellmouth island;)

If not i reckon one of those crossover pieces you do so well.

Ooh yes, I'd forgotten about that one, might go back to it, indeed. Actually having a think about Oz too...find it hard to capture him cos I never paid him much attention.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Maybe I'll just have to tackle Oz myself. Oooh that kinda sounded dirty.
But anyway I think the key would be to have him use very few words but make each one important. Also he never loses his cool, nothing phases him. I was reading a fic somewhere yesterday with the rather ridiculous scenario that Spike had become human but forgotten how to use the restroom. Oz walked in to Buffy's house and was immediately asked to go show him how and it didn't phase him. Just thinking about it makes me laugh but it does kind of sum up the coolness that is Oz. "Ok, this way big fella."

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Maybe I'll just have to tackle Oz myself. Oooh that kinda sounded dirty.

I don't know what you mean... ;)


But anyway I think the key would be to have him use very few words but make each one important. Also he never loses his cool, nothing phases him. I was reading a fic somewhere yesterday with the rather ridiculous scenario that Spike had become human but forgotten how to use the restroom. Oz walked in to Buffy's house and was immediately asked to go show him how and it didn't phase him. Just thinking about it makes me laugh but it does kind of sum up the coolness that is Oz. "Ok, this way big fella."

The thing I find hard is his inner voice - what DOES he think about. I mean, is he always having teh deep thoughts like in Earshot? That must get tiring for a brain :D

[Willow's Tara]

I got an challenge for someone (Didn't know where this goes).

I challenge someone to write a story/fanfic with two ACTRESSES, not characters. Write about Ali Larter (Nikki from Hereos obivously) and Amber Benson in anyway you wish, or if that's too hard, try Tara (Season 6 Tara, the more mature confident one) and Nikki fanfic. If you choose the two actors, then it must have these themes:
There has to be tension between Amber and Ali (Or Tara/Nikki, whoever you choose)
Amber and Ali have some sort of magicial power and must fight a demon.
You can add yourself as a love interest or friend interest of one of the two.
Amber and Ali can either be Actresses or be in a Alterative World where they aren't actors but something else (Hereos and Buffy can either exist or not, if it does, have Ali/Amber mention someone who plays as the Nikki/Tara of that world).

So go, I want to see who can write this sort of challenge? (I would write it but I want to see what a really good writer does with it). Please someone accept this challenge for me;)

[Dorian's Kitten]

Hi Willow's Tara, we actually have a whole challenge section. But it's a bit more complicated than just posting a challenge. Like we can only have I think two going at a time and you have to get approved. There's a sticky with the rules in the section. Check it out, maybe you can get this challenge going.:)

[Willow's Tara]

Ah I see, I have seen that section, do the thread starters contiune the story or is it for anyone to say I will do for the challenged (Saw it after I left here), does sound a bit complicated

[Llywela]

Hi Willow's Tara. As has already been explained, we have a challenge section where members can sign up to run fanfiction challenges, in their turn. The rules of the challenges are explained in that section - basically, if you sign up to run a challenge, when it is your turn you post the rules of your challenge. Then anyone who wants to can write a fic based on your requirements, and then when the challenge closes you judge them to decide which you like best.

However, we do not allow Real Person fictions on this forum - characters in TV shows are fair game, but not the people who play them. It is disrespectful to play games or write stories about living people. Sorry, but I don't allow it.

[Willow's Tara]

..Oh okay then, guess it was a waste of time PMing um that other mod (Forgot the name but it spelled sort of like yours).
Um, just wondering why is it disrespectful?..

And does that mean I am disrepecting Amber Benson?, like is writing stories for yourself and you only, and you only reading it, disrespecting? because if it is...Then I am a very bad fan...*Prays Amber wouldn't care if I wrote the stories for myself*...

[Llywela]

I just don't allow RPS stories - imagine how you might feel if someone wrote stories about you, putting words into your mouth. Like I said, characters are fair game - they are fictional to begin with. But I don't allow stories using real people in this section. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

[Willow's Tara]

That's understandable...Um not to sound rude but I would love it if someone had me in thier story, but that's just me I guess.

Um, you don't think I am disrespecting Amber thought do you? She is practially my inspiriation, knowing that there are still good people like her in the world makes me feel better.

[Llywela]

I'm sure you write with respect. But I've seen a lot of RPS stories that aren't, and don't want to take this forum down that road.

[Willow's Tara]

Ooh I see what you mean, like people who hate someone are more likely to make them the most evilest villian in thier story whether they are or not, I see. And yeah I do write her with respect, She's a Light Goddess who saves the world on a daily basis;)

[Llywela]

See, to me that sounds less like you writing a story about the actress, who presumably you've never met and only know through interviews and her work, and more like you casting the actress in a new role in a story you want to tell and a part you want her to play ;)

[Willow's Tara]

Ah that's is a good point, but in the story she is still an Actress named Amber, her family is still the same (Althought I am not writing much about RP's families much anymore, especially when I don't know much about them).

I know writing can be hard when writing real people, because if you add a friend in it and write a great story about it, but then you stop being friends and have a massive fight, that's a great story gone to ruins. I had that experience tons of times

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I'm wondering...if I wrote a Doctor Who/Smallville crossover fic...is there actually anyone on the forum who watches both??

[tangent]

heres a quick question for all you hardcore writers out there. I've found myself stuck for ideas before but what do you do when inspiration seems to fade halfway through a piece. Plough on or back of till the muse starts behaving?

What do we reckon.

[KingofCretins]

Fight it out, or switch to something else for a bit, but I usually say keep writing. If it still doesn't give in a little bit, then take a break, but for me, anyway, writing is all about momentum.

[Dorian's Kitten]

That sounds right to me. It seems hard to get started back on something if you leave it too long. Maybe write the end even if the middle is still vague?

[Llywela]

heres a quick question for all you hardcore writers out there. I've found myself stuck for ideas before but what do you do when inspiration seems to fade halfway through a piece. Plough on or back of till the muse starts behaving?
Sometimes it can be forced, but more often I find I have to take a complete break from it - sometimes a complete break from writing. I've gone back to incomplete pieces months later - sometimes a couple of years later - and found that the time and space has given a new perspective and I'm able to complete it finally.

[ferdy-m]

I'd go with something learned in an acting class, and experience of recalcitrant macs (or any computers). Go away, do something else, anything so that yez unconscious has a chance to unclench. Come back, that bit of memory's gone, ready to start again ...

I'd then go in and "improvise" - go with whatever comes for a bit. I try not to plan anything, scratch the peevish, "... revisiting the site of the grave, ho hom." Then in the class we were told to do (or write) what came. If it's still not working I'd recognise it is no more, defunct, a dead parrot, like and start something entirely new. Worst thing is to follow's Buffy's plumbing apocalypse and tighten up on the problem - just breaks out somewhere else, flooding us with watery disillusion.

:D

[tangent]

At the moment i seem to know where it's going but got lost down a side road and am heading for somwhere else. I'm getting the feeling i might be trying to write two stories at once.

strange.

[ferdy-m]

At the moment i seem to know where it's going but got lost down a side road and am heading for somwhere else. I'm getting the feeling i might be trying to write two stories at once.

strange.

cor, two for the price of one - can you actually split it now, and write two stories? Or not yet? ;)

[bishopcruz]

Dunno if this is the place for it. But I'm looking for someone who can beta a fic of mine soon.

The idea was to write a TV movie, so it's in script format and takes place after Angel S5 but before Buffy S8. Main characters are Xander and Angel, supporting cast are Buffy, Renee, Tina (new slayer), and some others I'd rather not spoil. I have 5 of the 8 acts finished.

I realize I'm fairly new at this, but I know we've got a lot of good writers here, so I would be very grateful for any beta readers I could get.

Also, I'm still not clear what exactly 'The Written' is, and what it entails. Can someone fill me in on that?

[Mabus]

bishopcruz, the Written is a monthly contest between fiction writers. The winner gets bragging rights, and his story is immortalized in that section. There are no specific criteria the way there are with fic challenges, though it has to be Jossverse; I believe you can find the rules in its section in Fiction.

[ferdy-m]

bishopcruz, the Written is a monthly contest between fiction writers. The winner gets bragging rights, and his story is immortalized in that section. There are no specific criteria the way there are with fic challenges, though it has to be Jossverse; I believe you can find the rules in its section in Fiction.

wot 'e said ;)

back in the day, the bragging rights included a nice promotion on the home page of Buffyworld. Except the home page was gateway to millions ... well, several thousand ... satisfied readers, and for months it's been gateway to frustration and uncertanty. And here, there's no home page. But as mabus put it so well, BR's remain ... :D

... ahem "his OR HER ... story is immortalized ..." *smirks meaningfully at mabus*

[Mabus]

... ahem "his OR HER ... story is immortalized ..." *smirks meaningfully at mabus*

Yes, yes, Ferdy. My apologies. I was probly half-asleep at the time. Been that way a lot lately. :sleeping:

[Obsessed]

I am not sure if I can post this here but I am gonna anyway. I may need a long-term beta for my fic RAIN. Its about a slayer with wiccan powers. Three episodes were released- just click on the link- RAIN above my banner to check out the LJ. If you're interested in beta-ing RAIN, PM me.

[ferdy-m]

I am not sure if I can post this here but I am gonna anyway. I may need a long-term beta for my fic RAIN. Its about a slayer with wiccan powers. Three episodes were released- just click on the link- RAIN above my banner to check out the LJ. If you're interested in beta-ing RAIN, PM me.

it's on your LJ but is it posted in Fanfic, obsessed? :)

... and Jo has *just this minute* set up a thread for you (ahem - and others) called "Desperately Seeking ...". Come out of this thread, go up a bit, knock on the door and you're there ...

[Rosamunde]

Script vs prose, what do you lot think?

I used to be vehemently anti-script, because I felt reading a script was not what the script-format was intended for, that is, we're supposed to see a script, rather than read it, but know I'm not so sure. I've been reading a lot of plays recently, and there's something rather tasty about scripts.

At the same time, I think script is somewhat limiting, because it changes the focus. We're not really Inside His Head anymore, and half the fun of fanfic, for me, is being Inside His Head. But are we emulating the show more if we write in script format?

And is there something fundamentally different about writing a script that you never intend to be seen?

[Llywela]

I'm sure we talked about this not long ago ;)

I prefer narrative, because, as you said, the best part of fanfic for me is getting inside the characters' heads and working out what makes them tick. Narrative feels very rich compared to a script, because there is so much more room to flesh things out. Also, you can cheat a little by narrating bits of exposition instead of having to find ways to get your characters to spell it out :D

But script does have its own benefits, which a writer can spin to their advantage. It's a very immediate format, allows you to cut rapidly back and forth between different locations, and if you write very cleverly, allows you to create a very visual visual in the reader's head. If that makes any sense at all. :s

[Rosamunde]

I'm sure we talked about this not long ago ;)

Did we? Sorry! I must have early-onset amnesia...

I prefer narrative, because, as you said, the best part of fanfic for me is getting inside the characters' heads and working out what makes them tick. Narrative feels very rich compared to a script, because there is so much more room to flesh things out. Also, you can cheat a little by narrating bits of exposition instead of having to find ways to get your characters to spell it out :D

:D The cheating part makes life so much easier!

I mostly use fanfic to sneak into character's heads: I've never been big on plot and figuring out what makes them tick, what makes them who they are, is far more important to me.

Plus, writing a script is a little like trying to emulate the show. And it's so good as it is that kind of writing seems silly to me (unless, of course, done very well!). By doing it a different way, you separate yourself from the show and are able to examine your characters in a new and interesting way.

But maybe the whole thing hinges on what you use your fanfic for? Is it to write an exciting new plotline for the characters to deal? Or to try and learn more about what makes the characters tick? Or to make various males have steamy sex? I'm guessing if your goals are very different, what format works is going to be very different too.

But script does have its own benefits, which a writer can spin to their advantage. It's a very immediate format, allows you to cut rapidly back and forth between different locations, and if you write very cleverly, allows you to create a very visual visual in the reader's head. If that makes any sense at all. :s

It makes sense! The immediacy is one of the qualities that make a script so accessible.

[Llywela]

Did we? Sorry! I must have early-onset amnesia...
*reads back* It was at the very start of this thread, so would have been before you made the move over to the new forum :)

[ferdy-m]

Just bringing Jane Espenson's blog over from the old place:

www.janeespenson.com

because everything she (very generously) shares about writing "professionally" makes the gap between fanfic writing and "pro" writing less echoing-chasm-wait-for-ten-minutes-to-hear-the-splash.

A lot about the Walt Disney Fellowship and writing specimen scripts, but from the same basis of starting with shows that inspire admiration and respeck and writing your own version. Apart from differences like, being funded to sit and learn how to do it in a professional writing team, and what she has for lunch ;) in JE's world you don't have to mind the gap so much. Luv the woman.

[tangent]

A quick question for those that have written longer series.

I am currently in the midst of what is turning out to be a multipart series. The trouble is that although i have a fairly good overview of where i'm going with it the action i'm writing now seems to want to change the overall direction a little.

So my basic question is this: how important is it to stick closely to your original plan? can something like this be written moe organically (obviously bearing in mind key events) or should I really nail the overall arc first?

[Llywela]

It really depends on you and on the story you're telling. It's good to have an overall plan and a sense of where you are going, but flexibility is also always a good thing. If you find that your original plan isn't perhaps as solid as you thought it was, or that the action naturally veers you in an alternate but more interesting direction, then it's perfectly okay to follow the writing where it leads. The only thing you really need to watch out for is if this alternate direction leads to internal inconsistency within the series, or results in loose threads from earlier stories being left hanging.

So - try to strike a balance, perhaps?

[Valyssia]

Not that my opinion means much, but if you're willing to play with it...writing organically can be very fun. We all sort of have a feel for the characters and how they behave. Toss X and Y character into whatever messed up situation you like and turn the screws. Enjoyable. Drop a piano. Anya's take on how to get rid of Glory. *snicker*

And yes...longer series...with a set plan... I wrote it exactly like that. I know it's a bit weird and it might not be the best fic in town. I was fun though and I learned a lot. The learning...what it's really about.

Pardon for the multiple edits, but I've been thinking...totally dangerous...had to get a permit.

It just seems to me that... Well I couldn't imagine totally structuring this art. When you're outlining, something I totally do in my head BTW, it's like you're setting up route markers. You say I want to get from point A to point B. Then you set your characters in motion and send them there. That last element is the organic bit.

Let me give you an example:

In 'For Marie,' Tam had a 24 hour life cycle under the camera or under my pen, as it were. My markers that were firm: First morning bedding down was the set start. (I had no clue where. I just put her in a forest and went for it. Felt right.) I knew she'd talk about her creation, the method was set. I knew she'd die of exposure. Shine on Benevolent Sun, was just too powerful to ignore. It was built in.

The rest was organic. The seduction bit was totally off the cuff. She wanted to be sure that he'd not overpower her so...organic. The notion of sacrificing her 'center' actually pulled that into being though really. Buffy arriving was organic. The end...organic. It just grew. If it was alright then that just means I had a good night.

Now that's not a long arc, but I do the same thing with 100,000 words that I do with 5000. Sign posts and write. If something feels wrong I adjust until it feels right.

Maybe I'm just strange. Well okay...I am a bit peculiar, but...

Valyssia

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I'm working on a Life on Mars/Buffy (well, Ripper really) crossover...just wondering if there is any canon info anywhere on when Giles was born exactly? I tried working it out roughly using the things he references in Band Candy, but it's only a rough guess. Wikipedia has him being born in 1954, but I think that might just be cos ASH was born then. Any thoughts?

[Valyssia]

The only clear reference to Giles living in England at all in the series that I recall is when he said, "I keep a flat in Bath." It was when he moved back to England in S6 as I remember, when he noted that. Other than that? Nothing springs to mind. I couldn't even tell you what episode that was in, honestly. It's just a detail I kept.

Valyssia

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Does anyone watch Tru Calling? Would you be interested in reading a TC/Buffy crossover? Obviously playing on Faith's uncanny resemblance to the time traveling missy...

[Ahm Shere]

So, I'm attempting to write a SN Fic as you all may well know. But I've written it in Prose...since I'm not to sure about scripts. I've only written the first three scenes of the Pilot :lol: So it wont be hard to transfer it into a Screenplay. I'm not sure though. Would people be more interested in reading it in Screenplay form, or Prose form?

And if Screenplay form, can someone please tell me what EXT and INT means, and how I should use them? Because now I'm all confused :(

Thanks :)

[KingofCretins]

INT and EXT indicate whether the scene is INTerior or EXTerior of whatever location you are describing, such as:

INT. SUNNYDALE HIGH LIBRARY.

or EXT. UC-SUNNYDALE. NIGHT.

Google for screenplay format or any other of things and you'll find a ton of stuff, including transitions, and describing action and so on.

Screenplay vs. prose is a question I've debated. Just what you feel more comfortable writing.

[Ahm Shere]

Sweet. Thanks. I'll google it, but I think for the time being I'm more comfortable with Prose. Then again, after reading, I may take a swing at writing Screenplay. I have both opened up now...(Prose is the longer one with three scenes...the screenplay with half a scene :lol: ) So I'll work on it tonight. Thanks again :D :p

[Vampmaster]

Hi everyone! I have been on Buffyforums for quite a while and have read several Buffy the Vampire Slayer virtual spin off series on here and am particulary a fan of The Dark Ages Demon Slayer seeing as the idea of a male slayer has always appealed to me.

I am about to start working on my own spin off series and am going to write in transcript form for the first time. Is their any hints that you would give to a newbie like myself?

[Aissy]

It's 2.45 a.m. and, as I have hinted before, I'm losing sleep over the age-old issue of Mary Sue.

Now, the question that haunts me tonight is:

Could you have several Mary Sues in the same fic, and if they happened to meet, would the fic, like, explode or something?

[Llywela]

Wow, but can you imagine how much fun it would be to find out? :D It could be, like, the ultimate spoof fic!

Or you could, y'know, try to be all serious about it...

[Wolfie Gilmore]

It's 2.45 a.m. and, as I have hinted before, I'm losing sleep over the age-old issue of Mary Sue.

Now, the question that haunts me tonight is:

Could you have several Mary Sues in the same fic, and if they happened to meet, would the fic, like, explode or something?

I think the other characters would get REALLY confused. You know, if Mary Sue-point-one is perfect, and everyone falls in love with her....but MAry Sue-point-two is also perfect, and everyone falls in love with her...who should they love? Who should they worship? Who should they feel sympathy for because of her hard hard life?

There would definitely be exploding heads.

[Aissy]

I think the other characters would get REALLY confused. You know, if Mary Sue-point-one is perfect, and everyone falls in love with her....but MAry Sue-point-two is also perfect, and everyone falls in love with her...who should they love? Who should they worship? Who should they feel sympathy for because of her hard hard life?

There would definitely be exploding heads.

Exactly! That's what I meant, that's the exact epiphany I went through last night when my own head started feeling like it might explode.

More seriously, though (as if), you could theoretically have one Mary Sue, one Gary Stu, one or more Canon Sues, and one Mary Sue DeVille, all in the same fic, without too much risk of explosion.

Oooh I'm having a challenge moment... :eviltail:

[KingofCretins]

I want to write a gag in a Buffy Season 8 fic where they need a Slayer to do something and they are trying to choose, and it's like:

Buffy: I don't know Xander, this is going to be really dangerous.
Xander: These girls are up to it Buffy, but you've got to make the call on who to send.
Buffy: We could send Mary Sue... she's so far advanced, she's almost taken me down twice.
Xander: (sighing) yeah... she's good in a fight, and with her demonic language expertise, she wouldn't need the earpiece for Giles.
Buffy: Oh, crap... we already let her go on leave for that modelling assignment.
Xander: (softly) oh yeah, that catalogue... not that I've looked, y'know, but uh...
Buffy: I'm right there with you...

(a moment)

Xander: Think Leah can do it?

Refer to the Mary Sue without actually using a Mary Sue? And naming her Mary Sue? Take it to the Written!

[ferdy-m]

Refer to the Mary Sue without actually using a Mary Sue? And naming her Mary Sue? Take it to the Written!

I'm not quite sure what you mean. As a member of the Written panel, we read what we're given. It's very clever and if you think it's a good idea, of course go for it.

More seriously, though (as if), you could theoretically have one Mary Sue, one Gary Stu, one or more Canon Sues, and one Mary Sue DeVille, all in the same fic, without too much risk of explosion.

Oooh I'm having a challenge moment...

boooooooommmmmm ... swooooshyness as the backdraught of the unstoppable blast of marysues endgaming strips my fluffy fantasy life to the bone. Oh, now that stings a lot. :(

... and the Challenge, ooh, yes :D

[KingofCretins]

As Xander once said, "... he joked."

It was the best off-handed place I could think of to send my badfic idea for proper abuse. That whistling sound? That was my joke deflating.

[ferdy-m]

As Xander once said, "... he joked."

It was the best off-handed place I could think of to send my badfic idea for proper abuse. That whistling sound? That was my joke deflating.

The Written Panel doesn't abuse. Even when somebody uses the word "deflating" which is just asking for it ... :D

[ferdy-m]

Posting a reply to Wolfie's interesting point in a shipper thread, because the reply has nothing to do with shipping - bored now - or fanart - never been interested - so will bore the knickers orf anyone in the general forum ...

However – and while I’m not a shipper, I do get shipperishly hot under the collar over this issue – what the writer intended is not always the same as what’s on the screen. I can try and express one idea, as a writer, but what I actually get down on paper, and what the actors, directors, camera guys, props people, clothing chaps etc work together to produce won’t always be exactly what I had in my mind.

I can't wholly agree with this, wolfie. I wouldn't go so far as to say Death of the Author is inevitable - Hacking the Author about, yes, Reducing Author to Sobbing Heap in the Corner, yes, Author on Phone to Lawyer, yes.

But in every telly production, with its multi-contributors and fluidity, there has to be somebody who's said, "Once upon a time ..." and if that concept didn't make it through, the whole point disappears into telly-by-numbers exercise to keep the accountants happy.

Either everyone gets the idea better than the author, in which, "Original Concept by ... Second Grip" or "Written by ..." means a Writer who sticks it out for the original idea. Death of the Author for me means Death of the Idea and I don't think it can be done without dusting the whole kybosh.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Posting a reply to Wolfie's interesting point in a shipper thread, because the reply has nothing to do with shipping - bored now - or fanart - never been interested - so will bore the knickers orf anyone in the general forum ...

Boring the knickers off…hee…now liking the idea of boring someone into bed. You know, be so boring that they have to kiss you to shut you up. I’m going to try that one.

I can't wholly agree with this, wolfie. I wouldn't go so far as to say Death of the Author is inevitable - Hacking the Author about, yes, Reducing Author to Sobbing Heap in the Corner, yes, Author on Phone to Lawyer, yes.

But in every telly production, with its multi-contributors and fluidity, there has to be somebody who's said, "Once upon a time ..." and if that concept didn't make it through, the whole point disappears into telly-by-numbers exercise to keep the accountants happy.

Oh, I don’t mean to do down the contribution of the author, and I see shows like Buffy as having a very strong authorial voice in terms of feeling like the product of a controlling intelligence. Someone does have to have a vision for anything worthwhile to get made. But I’d distinguish between what’s needed for a good story to happen and a good story in and of itself.

Either everyone gets the idea better than the author, in which, "Original Concept by ... Second Grip" or "Written by ..." means a Writer who sticks it out for the original idea. Death of the Author for me means Death of the Idea and I don't think it can be done without dusting the whole kybosh.

Right, I think I didn’t explain myself fully. In bringing up the death of the author, I don’t mean to say that they shouldn’t get credit or that good telly gets made without the blood sweat, tears etc of a guiding intelligence (or intelligences)…though that does depend on the show. But I agree that in Joss’s shows that they’re very much auteur television. However, although I used the example of the author creating something that he didn’t mean to create, my “death of the author” perspective is actually independent of any instance in which the authorial intention and what’s actually on screen diverge.

Even when the author’s intention is fully realised (if that’s possible, given the difference between a human mind and a telly show!), I still see the intention as secondary. It can inform my understanding of what’s on screen, but it’s what’s on screen that counts.

It’s like babies (though, simile here, so obviously not an exact fit!)…my understanding of a person will be informed by meeting their parents, but once the baby’s grown up into an individual person, that person has their own life and value quite separate from the value of the parent. I mean, well done parent and everything…but characters and scenes have a life for me that’s separate from the way they were produced. Art is aliiiiive I tell you, it’s aliiiive!

*jiggles her comedy Halloween Frankenstein like Giles does when having a mid life crisis in season 4…*

Basically, I’m always interested in what an author/director has to say, but I’m also interested in what the characters have to say, what the story says…and what intelligent viewers have to say, too, from observing the characters.

I

[ferdy-m]

It’s like babies (though, simile here, so obviously not an exact fit!)…my understanding of a person will be informed by meeting their parents, but once the baby’s grown up into an individual person, that person has their own life and value quite separate from the value of the parent. I mean, well done parent and everything…but characters and scenes have a life for me that’s separate from the way they were produced. Art is aliiiiive I tell you, it’s aliiiive!

Ah, now I understand, listening more intently. I know you've brought out the importance of "kill your babies" when writing, I thought it was an unparented baby - but yes, separate identity.

Basically, I’m always interested in what an author/director has to say, but I’m also interested in what the characters have to say, what the story says…and what intelligent viewers have to say, too, from observing the characters.

May I just include another qualifying adjective to full agreement - "intelligent, impartial viewers ..." because going back to the thread that spawned this far from boring detour, a newbie posting in Welcome said returning here was a bit post-apocalypse, planet-of-the-apes-ey. And there's surely a lotta monkeying around going on in shipping, cos we're not so much for self-reflection, apparently ... ;)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Ah, now I understand, listening more intently. I know you've brought out the importance of "kill your babies" when writing, I thought it was an unparented baby - but yes, separate identity.

No, not an orphan. What stories are orphans? Myths...anything oral (ooh err!). Then I suppose some stories have foster parents/unconventional parenting arrangements. Like...any sitcom written by a team. Terribly modern and shocking :D


May I just include another qualifying adjective to full agreement - "intelligent, impartial viewers ..." because going back to the thread that spawned this far from boring detour, a newbie posting in Welcome said returning here was a bit post-apocalypse, planet-of-the-apes-ey. And there's surely a lotta monkeying around going on in shipping, cos we're not so much for self-reflection, apparently ... ;)

Yes...the sort of viewers who'd qualify for the putative "reasonable person" status of a court of law. Though of course, that's subjective. But, often what someone says on a forum can give me as much insight as what a creator says, because they've got the distance that a creator doesn't.

Though, I find that when I look back on things I wrote years ago, it might as have been written by someoen else...so I'd be very interested to have some commentaries for Buffy that are recorded now! Especially for the early long ago seasons. Ten years ago, christ!

[ferdy-m]

No, not an orphan. What stories are orphans? Myths...anything oral (ooh err!). Then I suppose some stories have foster parents/unconventional parenting arrangements. Like...any sitcom written by a team. Terribly modern and shocking :D

Liking the metaphor - Myths belong to everybody, you could put the words into the mouth of clay golems and they'd still work - sorry to quote pratchett, wolfie but there's a lot of him about.

But, often what someone says on a forum can give me as much insight as what a creator says, because they've got the distance that a creator doesn't.

... distance - like from another planet? the Mono Planet, where everything is black and white and anybody smuggling in gray stuff gets thrown out into the airless depths of space? But I agree the urge to say (very quietly and hope he really never drops in on forums ...) "Actually, Joss, I'd like to test that theory about a plot twist ..." ;)

Though, I find that when I look back on things I wrote years ago, it might as have been written by someoen else...so I'd be very interested to have some commentaries for Buffy that are recorded now! Especially for the early long ago seasons. Ten years ago, christ!

From the thread about which Buffy season people prefer, a lot of this does seem to be what's going on in people's lives, where we are, rather than where the seasons are?

Generally, I'm glad the buffyverse has a myffic, epic quality to balance the short-skirted teen Buffy vibe in the earlier seasons - it's worn well. Still watching episodes, still getting something out of them without affectionate snickers.

[Llywela]

Later in life you work out how to become an onlooker of art, but in childhood you are free to live inside the stories you love. The writers of fan fiction recapture that childish bravado, those easy movements from one narrative to another and in and out of real life. As they reweave these stories they remind us that the boundary of the published book, and the control exerted by the individual author over a tale, is a relatively recent phenomenon for art, both in history and in our individual lives.

Indeed, when it comes to fan fiction, the internet is giving us back something like an oral society, in which people can retell the stories that are most important to them and, in so doing, change them. For all the dross and smut they produce, these communities in which readers become writers, fans become creators and old tales become new, also give out blasts of energy. And they remind us that the power of these fantasy worlds are not built just on profit and loss, but on imagination responding to imagination.

Friend of mine found that surfing the 'Net, from an article in the Guardian way back in 2004 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1336689,00.html), and I just thought - yes! This is what it's about - not winning prizes, or wads of money (though nice if that'd happen too...*g*) or technical perfection, or even necessarily following all the rules (although the better your technique, the more accessible your work is to readers ;)) - it's about feeling that magic again, the energy of being inside the world as story...

Yes?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Friend of mine found that surfing the 'Net, from an article in the Guardian way back in 2004 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1336689,00.html), and I just thought - yes! This is what it's about - not winning prizes, or wads of money (though nice if that'd happen too...*g*) or technical perfection, or even necessarily following all the rules (although the better your technique, the more accessible your work is to readers ;)) - it's about feeling that magic again, the energy of being inside the world as story...

Yes?

Very much so! I love the fact that the notion of authorship breaks down a little with fanfiction…it’s already a collaboration even when there’s just one fan writer, in a sense, because you’re building on someone else’s stories (Joss etc). So the ego can go out the window (hopefully!) and you can just feel the joy of writing. Sure, constructing a fanfic that’s fun to read requires effort, but there’s not the same pressure to make something that’s yours…it’s something that’s part of a fabric of other stories and reshapes existing “myths”.

[Aissy]

Friend of mine found that surfing the 'Net, from an article in the Guardian ... it's about feeling that magic again, the energy of being inside the world as story...

Yes?

Yes! Totally. And I love that there's an article from the Guardian about fanfic and fanfic writers, and what the article says. I like that he or she uses the term "community" as well.

And it is about feeling the magic. The magic of writing, which is really about being inside the story. Which is a fan's ultimate fantasy. I don't mean as a self-insertion, I mean as the narrator. Whoever your narrator may be, whether or not omniscient, s/he has to be there, right in the thick of the story, and if that story's Buffy or any story you're a fan of, knowing that you have the possibility, through your narrator, to direct the story and characters is extremely empowering. It changes your fanhood from passive to active, as you no longer only read, watch, observe your fandom, but take a role in its creation, however small and personal that role is.

The pleasure derived from writing fanfic is undeniable. It's the question of reading fanfic that's a lot more... questionable. To be very honest, I do enjoy reading fanfic, I can say I've loved reading some fanfics. But the pleasure I get from reading fanfic DOESN'T COMPARE to the pleasure I get from writing it. And I strongly suspect I'm not the only one in this boat. So please, if you know of somebody who enjoys reading fanfic but has no interest in writing it, let me know because that would really help with my little crisis of faith I'm going through, here. Namely, "what's the point, what's the point?".

Desperately awaiting your testimonials...

[Dorian's Kitten]

I actually may enjoying reading a good fic as much as I enjoy writing one. I sometimes choose to read during time I planned to use for writing. Also it seems like most of the archive sites have lots of members with no stories attributed to them so...
That being said, I didn't start reading fan fic until after I started writing it. :) It is an interesting thought Aissy.

[Mabus]

I started reading fanfic well before I started writing. Of course, a substantial part of the reason I started writing was the poor quality of what I was reading--some of it was very good, but other parts....bleah. But I've always been a reader first, a writer second.

[KingofCretins]

DK, I need to make sure to write up some more Buffy/Xander fic for you, I know it's your favorite :)

Anybody ever had an original character interact with principal Buffyverse characters as part of the central plot of their story? How'd it work for you?

[Mabus]

Dan, so far as I can tell from audience response, Sadha is working out well so far. (For anyone who hasn't been reading, Sadha Kaur is part of my DeadWar series.) I have to admit I'm continually on edge that she's going to be perceived as an intrusive element--a Mary Sue, for instance--which is one reason I kept that scene you wanted out of my "canon", but so far it doesn't appear to have happened.

[KingofCretins]

Sadha isn't really part of the "A" plot, though, you reasonably play it safe and let her storyline simmer.

Has anyone made an original character part of the central plot of a fic?

[Mabus]

Sadha isn't really part of the "A" plot, though, you reasonably play it safe and let her storyline simmer.

Has anyone made an original character part of the central plot of a fic?

Well...that tells me I have successfully concealed her importance...er, oops! Let me confirm once and for all, Sadha is indeed a crucial part of the "A" plot and leave you to wonder why. But I suppose it's true that, for the moment, she is in the background and not out in front.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I actually may enjoying reading a good fic as much as I enjoy writing one. I sometimes choose to read during time I planned to use for writing. Also it seems like most of the archive sites have lots of members with no stories attributed to them so...
That being said, I didn't start reading fan fic until after I started writing it. :) It is an interesting thought Aissy.

That’s pretty much my story – started writing before reading, but then got into other peoples’ fics. Especially for Smallville (because the fic is often better than the show!) and Doctor Who (because the wait is so long for next season!), though sometimes for Buffy too. I love love love futurefic (someone recommended one about Buffy’s daughter in the fic rec thread that I enjoyed…it had its flaws, but I had such fun reading it). I don’t read fanfic that often though because I need a really strong recommendation before I’ll start reading something…don’t tend to just dip into something because I find it depressing reading something bad.

DK, I need to make sure to write up some more Buffy/Xander fic for you, I know it's your favorite :)

Anybody ever had an original character interact with principal Buffyverse characters as part of the central plot of their story? How'd it work for you?

In the season 8 I was writing a few years ago (quite a few now!) we had an original character slayer who was pretty central to a few eps (involved a treachery plot against the scoobs by another watcher-style organisation who wanted to bring them down and run the slayers themselves). Although I think it was slightly symptomatic of having too many writers and too democratic a writing process – so we ended up with too complex a plot – I think it worked very well on thematic and character levels.

Claudia was an English slayer, private school educated but actually from a working class northern background who’d kinda done a reverse spike…become posh rather than learned to be rough. She was prickly, a bit bitchy in that Cordy way – sharp tongued, rather – and liked to tease Giles, partly because she felt she knew where he lived in a sense (though not necessarily true). Fun to have them have a bit of a British-off too.

She was great for exploring the ways the other characters perceived themselves – her betrayal mirrored others (though, as far as we got, not all those betrayals were revealed) and she was interesting to contrast to Faith and explore the idea of what it means to be “the bad slayer”…especially if you’re being bad because you think you’re serving some greater good. Also good for getting characters to open up…Dawn, for example, felt it was easy to talk to her because they were that bit closer in age (though Claudia was quite old for a slayer…we had this whole thing where it turned out not just to be girls, it was EVERYONE who ahd the potential to be a slayer…from women to babies. But, separate issue).

Anyway, I think new characters can be great on that level, getting to see sides of the scoobies that they wouldn’t necessarily show to each other, or bringing out new sides to them. And also, with new slayer characters, getting to explore what it means to be a slayer.

[Aissy]

Thanks, Dorian's Kitten, Mabus and Wolfie for your views on writing vs reading. It does help. Although I must say, all three of you are fanfic writers... :) Two out of my 3 betas don't write fanfic, but I very much doubt they would read fanfic if it wasn't, well, written by a mate.

Of course, a substantial part of the reason I started writing was the poor quality of what I was reading

I find that topic fascinating (not being sarky) - why did we start writing fanfic, what prompted us to change our status from passive to active?

I started messing about with writing fanfic in the 90s - though I didn't know it was fanfic at the time - after my fav show of the time ended. I couldn't bear to leave that universe behind, so I had to make it carry on, if only in my head. Story didn't get very far, and I didn't write again for about ten years when...

... my next fav show ended. (Can you see a pattern here?) But this time, I'd just about heard enough about the phenomenon of fanfic (I knew the term, that was about it) to take myself seriously enough to carry on with that fic, on my own, with half a handful of readers and zero fellow writers, for about two years. Then one sunny day I got on a fanfic website, realised how huge this community I was part of, but had chosen to ignore for two years, was, and this is when fanfic became a lot more interactive for me.

More accounts from other people, please? :)


Anybody ever had an original character interact with principal Buffyverse characters as part of the central plot of their story? How'd it work for you?

My two-year fanfic was pretty much centred around my original character, although I had about three plots going in there because, while I didn't know about Mary Sues, I instinctively felt the story shouldn't be about her. I wrote her to be annoying to the other characters, but when I got feedback from the few people who read that fic, and most of them said she was annoying, I never really knew (or didn't want to know) whether they meant she was an annoying character they'd rather not have in the story, or annoying to the canon characters (which was the idea). How to sabotage your own character in 8 chapters... :)

I have now put that story on hold because I feel (I hope) my writing's improved in the past couple of years and I plan on rewriting some of it - possibly rewriting that original character a bit as well - before I carry on but it's an enormous project as the fic is rather long. Plus I'm always stuck in another fic I want to finish before I do anything else. Two, in fact, at the moment.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

More accounts from other people, please?

I dabbled in what I now realise was fanfic as a kid - things like rewrite the end of Lord of the Rings so that Frodo and Sam sailed off into the West together – clearly I was always a slasher, even aged ten! I used to write what I suppose was fanfic about Elfquest too (an American comic from the 80s about, surprise, elves). Basically wrote about elves having adventures that were very similar to the elfquest elves, though I might have given them other names. Oh, and I would also just pinch stuff from stories I liked…like I once wrote a story about a boy’s family getting horiffically slaughtered by a plague of flies and I pinched one of the death scenes from 2000AD (had the sister or brother getting their ribs ripped open by…I forget exactly how…the flies (there were no flies in the story I was ripping off, it was more the ribs thing). All very violent.

Anyway, after that I didn’t do any fanfic, just wrote my own stuff…until Buffy pretty much. I can’t remember what prompted me to write, but it was looking up scripts that made me find Buffyworld, which gave me somewhere to post stuff. I think some of the first things I wrote were affectionate parodies, but I can’t really remember…sadly BW ate my old stories. I think I did a few revisionist things – eg Buffy realising that she’d doomed all the potentials by giving them slayer powers cos slayers were never meant to live past 25 and after that point, their powers start to kill them. Cheerful! Then I did a lot of parody stuff like a diary of Adrian mole thing by Andrew.

After writing lots of short(ish) stories me and a bunch of people started writing a season 8 when we heard that the show was getting cancelled.

In terms of reading, then, I can’t remember when I first started reading stuff, but it was probably on someone’s recommendation…and then I got quite into shippy fics for a bit. But then got bored of them and what tended to interest me in Buffy were either future stuff or parallel universe/crossover stuff. Once more with hobbits I remember enjoying a LOT!

[Llywela]

The pleasure derived from writing fanfic is undeniable. It's the question of reading fanfic that's a lot more... questionable. To be very honest, I do enjoy reading fanfic, I can say I've loved reading some fanfics. But the pleasure I get from reading fanfic DOESN'T COMPARE to the pleasure I get from writing it. And I strongly suspect I'm not the only one in this boat. So please, if you know of somebody who enjoys reading fanfic but has no interest in writing it, let me know because that would really help with my little crisis of faith I'm going through, here. Namely, "what's the point, what's the point?".

Desperately awaiting your testimonials...
I find myself both reading and writing less and less just lately, I have to admit. When I write, it is definitely for my own pleasure rather than in expectation of anyone actually reading my stuff. It's nice when they do, of course, and nicer still if they like it enough to actually tell me so, but that isn't why I write.

I sometimes ask myself why I do write. Mostly, though, it's like scratching an itch. There's a story I want to tell, and I want to find out if I've actually got the ability to tell it in a way that will make sense and be engaging to anyone else.

Reading fanfic, for me, is completely different to writing it. I read because I love the universe created on-screen and want to immerse myself in it even more deeply than watching and re-watching will allow. I think that's why I'm such a canon-whore. If it doesn't resemble what I've seen on-screen, if I can't recognise the characters by their actions and reactions, then there's no point reading. And I read less and less all the time, usually sticking to writers I already know and trust.

There was a point I wanted to make in reply to what you said, what was it...? Oh yeah. My trusty and beloved beta-reader S considers herself a reader, not a writer. She has and does write, some lovely stuff, too. But for her, fanfic is all about reading - for much the reasons I said above. She loves to read. That's why she beta-reads my stuff, even though it is rarely if ever in her primary fandom.

Does that help? It's a busy Friday and my brain gave up the ghost round about 1990. ;)

[Mabus]

I find that topic fascinating (not being sarky) - why did we start writing fanfic, what prompted us to change our status from passive to active?

I first toyed with the idea of writing in someone else's universe way back in high school, after reading (of all things) Edgar Rice Burroughs' Land that Time Forgot trilogy. But I never got past the first few paragraphs; it was one of those stories that just sorta inflates on you till it's too long to conceive of writing it. I tinkered with the idea of writing Star Trek stories; later, in college, I wrote in the universe of a writer I found online (it was one of those things where a story is really popular in a certain community and everyone joins in). After that I went through a really dry period when I didn't write anything--I left college and didn't even have to write for classes.

Just a couple of years ago I started toying with writing Stargate fanfic, but it was hard to come up with an idea that hadn't been done. It was about that time that work started interfering with my tv watching, but Buffy was still on early mornings. After I'd seen most every episode of Buffy, I started reading fanfiction, but an awful lot of it was...well, awful. My life was totally in a rut at that point, I needed something to do, and I figured I could write better than nearly all of what I was seeing. I was enthused by this place's virtual season (just before it fell to pieces) and decided BW was a good place to start.

So, basically...it's an ego thing. I enjoy writing, but without the ego-stroking I get from readers it wouldn't be enough fun to do much of it. One day I hope to actually write something for sale.

[tangent]

My story...

Well i've always been a big reader and was a particularly bookish kid. I also had what could be politely called an active imagination. I wrote a couple of things in junior school (mostly the type of stories that include pirates and astronauts and ghosts and cowboys) and harboured young ambitions of being a writer but never really followed them up.

Wether this was due to never really excelling in english classes or a lack of confidence i don't really know but whatever the case 3 years ago I came across Buffyworld, mainly to discuss my love of the programme and found such a tight knit supportive community that after much umming and ahhing I decided to risk my arm. Having brokne the seal (so to speak) it has proved impossible to stop.

I don't read as much as i should of others work, mainly due to time constraints and actually feel quite guilty at this but i probably wouldn't have even looked at fanfic before i stumbled across the work here and discovered the quality that's about.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Having brokne the seal (so to speak) it has proved impossible to stop.

So...writing is like going to the loo at the pub? Hee!

It's great that fanfic gets people writing who might have avoided it because they felt they weren't up to it...the love of a storyworld makes people fear the fear and do it anyway I think. I've always enjoyed it as a no pressure way of writing...my living doesn't depend on it, I don't feel I'm being judged...because we're all doing it with love. I did have to quit fanfif for a while to get other writing done though. It sucks time like a bastard!



As a reader, though, on the topic of love, one thing that puts me off instantly is if a story is shippy in a way taht I can feel the force of the shippy motivation, instead of the character motivation. The "shippy" stories that have drawn me in have always made the love story seem inevitable...in a sense, they're not shippy, because they're not about a ship agenda, or pushing the characters together...it feels natural.

[KingofCretins]

Any examples, Wolfie? I'm not sure I see what your seeing. I'd actually be curious to see where you'd lump in "Franchises" on that scale, whether it was agenda-fic or character-fic. Because I don't think anyone can write 'shipper fic of a 'ship they like without it being implicitly agenda-driven, and that it turns only to a question of how they conceal it.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Any examples, Wolfie? I'm not sure I see what your seeing. I'd actually be curious to see where you'd lump in "Franchises" on that scale, whether it was agenda-fic or character-fic. Because I don't think anyone can write 'shipper fic of a 'ship they like without it being implicitly agenda-driven, and that it turns only to a question of how they conceal it.

Afraid I've no examples...terrible terrible memory! Which one's franchises?

it's not the presence of an agenda...it's if their agenda knickers are showing really. So basically...if it's bad, out of character writing!

[Llywela]

I think I know what you're getting at, Wolfie - it's the difference between a story where the shippiness is subtle and flows naturally out of the plot, and a story where the plot is twisted and distorted horribly to shoehorn in shippiness that might not necessarily fit it. For example, some writers who support 'unconventional ships', shall we say, might want to write a story highlighting that ship, but lack the skill to let the new relationship develop naturally, which results in them warping the characters out of character in order to jam them together in a relationship, rather than developing that new relationship slowly and subtly.

If that makes sense at all. It's very late in the week.

[ferdy-m]

Dropping in very, very late in the week (and what a week, sheeeshhhhhh) to say fanficking was actually more scarey than starting original writing again - to touch the hem of Joss's garment - but they'd pulled the plug on the shows and the first BtVS fic I wrote was because my telly wasn't working - not even vids an option. So it's wolfie's feel the fear and fear it anyway – driven by need.

Giving time to it because of wanting to write (generally) instead of needing to re-create a much-loved world, took much longer. But the hole left by shows taken off the air, filled by fanficking - incalculable. Definitely big, deep, echoing chasm filled by fanficking :) (and any naughty interpretations of the hole symbolism *waves hand airily* hey, whatever ...)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I think I know what you're getting at, Wolfie - it's the difference between a story where the shippiness is subtle and flows naturally out of the plot, and a story where the plot is twisted and distorted horribly to shoehorn in shippiness that might not necessarily fit it. For example, some writers who support 'unconventional ships', shall we say, might want to write a story highlighting that ship, but lack the skill to let the new relationship develop naturally, which results in them warping the characters out of character in order to jam them together in a relationship, rather than developing that new relationship slowly and subtly.

If that makes sense at all. It's very late in the week.

Yeah, makes sense!

So, if someone wanted to write a Xander/Spike story, they'd have to work up to it. I'm sure I've written Xander/Spike stories before...not sure how convincing they were (to be honest, I don't live up to my own standards as I apply them to others...like you said I think Jo, I write for fun rather than for a readership, which is terribly selfish perhaps! But sod it. I am a selfish beast!)...but I did try to make it so that there was some kind of reason behind their boinking - or at least, that it fitted where the characters were in that moment.

Given that a lot of the real ships on the show are quite odd, unconventional ships for Buffy are easier to make plausible than on some shows mind you!

[KingofCretins]

Wolfie, it was my Challenge #1 entry, you can link it from my feedback thread. It was set in Season 8, about Buffy and Xander traveling around setting up Slayer teams.

I can stand brutal honesty here, because you've identified an important problem in fic, and since my 'shipping agenda is, by definition, to convince people that it is natural and in character, I'm a good guinea pig :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Wolfie, it was my Challenge #1 entry, you can link it from my feedback thread. It was set in Season 8, about Buffy and Xander traveling around setting up Slayer teams.

I can stand brutal honesty here, because you've identified an important problem in fic, and since my 'shipping agenda is, by definition, to convince people that it is natural and in character, I'm a good guinea pig :)

I think I read that, don't remember noticing any shoving in of ships where they don't fit :D Will have another look and put stuff in your feedback thread though!

[Aissy]

Cool. That's all so interesting, I love that stuff. What emerges from your fanficker histories - and trying not to label anyone - is that there are probably two types of fanfic writers: the fans and the writers.

The writers are, first and foremost, readers. They first fall in love with reading, and then will write just about anything, as long as they get to write. Fanfic is a good, fun, easy way to get their writing ya-yas out, while also challenging the hell out of them, because the rules of fanfic are actually quite strict compared to not having to adhere to an already existing universe created by somebody else. The game consists in not distorting that universe beyond recognition because that would defeat the object of not writing their own universe. Fanfic writing probably has a didactic function for them, allowing them to practise through a fervently entertaining, though complex, emulation exercise.

The fans are, first and foremost, fans. They enjoy writing fanfic in a similar way as they enjoy watching/reading their canon stories. Fanfic is above all a way to satisfy a need, for more or for deeper. It gives fans direct access, opens a portal to their fandom universe, and provides them with a backstage pass, granting them the ultimate privilege to get to know, if only virtually, the characters they love. The game, here too, consists in not distorting that universe beyond recognition because recognising, extending the universe they love is the main reason for writing it in the first place. Fanfic writing probably has a gratifying function for them, bringing them pleasure through a relieving, though sometimes strenuous, sense-of-belonging fix.

That's my theory, anyway, and I don't suggest for a moment that you have to be strictly one or the other of the two types or that switching from one to the other is impossible. I do believe, however, that we all have a predominance towards one type. I know which one I am, and that's not necessarily the one I would choose to be.

Of course this theory may well be complete BS :D but it's something interesting to think about. And while I have a theory (whether or not BS) on fanfic writing because I have given it some thought, I have exactly zero theories, not even an opinion, on fanfic reading. Or on shipping - especially slashing - which I also find a fascinating, if slightly incomprehensible, phenomenon.

So, looking forward to your theories, should you have any you can be bothered to explain here.

PS. I have just become a scholar again, hence the old analysing-stuff-to-death instincts resurfacing en masse. Especially analysing-stuff-to-death-that-has-nothing-to-do-with-any-of-my-modules instincts. :) Sorry about that.

[Mabus]

The writers are, first and foremost, readers. They first fall in love with reading, and then will write just about anything, as long as they get to write. Fanfic is a good, fun, easy way to get their writing ya-yas out, while also challenging the hell out of them, because the rules of fanfic are actually quite strict compared to not having to adhere to an already existing universe created by somebody else. The game consists in not distorting that universe beyond recognition because that would defeat the object of not writing their own universe. Fanfic writing probably has a didactic function for them, allowing them to practise through a fervently entertaining, though complex, emulation exercise.
.......
That's my theory, anyway, and I don't suggest for a moment that you have to be strictly one or the other of the two types or that switching from one to the other is impossible. I do believe, however, that we all have a predominance towards one type. I know which one I am, and that's not necessarily the one I would choose to be.


Interesting theories, Aissy. I know where I fall (having been a reader since I was about three years old).

I don't know that I'd say fanfic is harder for me than original writing. You've seen my work; you know how I've manhandled the Buffyverse. It's not completely twisted out of shape--or so I hope--but bending it is part of the fun. The part that's easier is having pre-existing characters; the hardest part of writing for me has always been coming up with someone coherent, who has interesting motivations. Yes, I have to hold them in character, but I'd have to do that with my own folk as well.

As for fanfic reading...I can tell you why I do it. For me, no story is ever really self-contained. If I enjoy a tale, the characters are real to me, and they don't cease to exist because the story ends. Finding sequels is always a good, of course, but if there's no official sequel I either hunt down someone else's or imagine my own. What I write, strange as it sounds, never seems quite as real to me as what someone else writes--I made it up out of my own head, after all, and I can never truly shake that knowledge.

[Veverka]

Just read this (http://www.theage.com.au/news/books/bbooksb-author-outs-hogwarts-headmaster-dumbledore/2007/10/20/1192301101398.html) in The Age... made me laugh...

Potter readers on fan sites and elsewhere on the internet have speculated on the sexuality of Dumbledore, noting that he has no close relationship with women and a mysterious, troubled past. And explicit scenes with Dumbledore already have appeared in fan fiction.

Explicit scenes, eh?

This isn't quite the right place for this post, but... it seemed to fit best here- if a mod wants to move it to misc, feel free ;) It just seemed to fit with Lee's statement about how he has manhandled the Buffy verse!

[ferdy-m]

Just read this (http://www.theage.com.au/news/books/bbooksb-author-outs-hogwarts-headmaster-dumbledore/2007/10/20/1192301101398.html) in The Age... made me laugh...

thanks veverka - you don't get a more obviously "professional" writer than JK - shows they've got more than a passing interest in wot fanfickers are doing! :)

... and hey, the guy wears his hair long and his frocks are to die for, c'mon, wasn't anybody paying attention?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Just read this (http://www.theage.com.au/news/books/bbooksb-author-outs-hogwarts-headmaster-dumbledore/2007/10/20/1192301101398.html) in The Age... made me laugh...

Oops, I posted that too in another section, didn't realise it was in here. But...I KNEW it! All that stuff with Grindelwald, so very love story.

[Mabus]

Potter readers on fan sites and elsewhere on the internet have speculated on the sexuality of Dumbledore, noting that he has no close relationship with women and a mysterious, troubled past. And explicit scenes with Dumbledore already have appeared in fan fiction.

But he's old...

Oops, I posted that too in another section, didn't realise it was in here. But...I KNEW it! All that stuff with Grindelwald, so very love story.

...so maybe that's why it never occurred to me. Just as easy that anyone he loved was simply long dead.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

But he's old...

Yeah, but he wasn't when he was getting it on with Grindelwald. I'm HOPING that's what the fics are about...never read any though. But just wrote one, a wee drabble (not about Grindelwald), using a joke that's so old it was probably made up before Dumbledore was born!


http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?p=89400#post89400


...so maybe that's why it never occurred to me. Just as easy that anyone he loved was simply long dead.

Yes, it is a bit cheeky that she made him gay in the past, where it's less contentious...slight cop out there. Though I kinda believe it's not a retcon, given that she seems to have had so much of the stories planned out from the start. Mind you, she might have seen it in the text afterwards...I know that when you look back over things you often realise things about a character that you didn't know when you were writing it. But then again, maybe she just read a LOT of fanfic, and decided they were right?

[ferdy-m]

...Though I kinda believe it's not a retcon, given that she seems to have had so much of the stories planned out from the start. Mind you, she might have seen it in the text afterwards...I know that when you look back over things you often realise things about a character that you didn't know when you were writing it. But then again, maybe she just read a LOT of fanfic, and decided they were right?

fanfic rools ok! :D

gives them time orf from being big swingy professional writers probably?

[Aissy]

Been a while since I posted in this thread, and I like to post in this thread now and then, like to think of it as my... security blanket. Occasionally, I HAVE to post in this thread.

Had a very strange day yesterday. Many months ago, (I don't expect anyone to remember, btw) I mentioned in here a dream I'd had which involved being in a classroom studying something like "XXth Century Jossverse" or something, quite possibly taught by The Joss himself, can't remember.

Well, yesterday was exactly that. Except, instead of Joss it was a few very knowledgeable academics, instead of a random classroom it was a lecture theatre at my very own university, and instead of the jossverse it was, wait for it, Slash Fanfiction.

So there I was, sitting among my peers - all 40 odd of us fanfic writers - probably the only one who isn't into slash. Now I've never met another fanfic writer in the flesh, so being surrounded by a whole lecture theatre-ful of them was surreal enough for me to just ignore the fact that I was also being surrounded by slash writers. Picture it, that many slash writing ladies (not being gender whatever here, they were all females) together, a Turok-Han of slash. Your wors