Spuffy+Hate Club [Archive]

KingofCretins

30-05-07, 02:05 PM

Because we need a temp forum, too!

Your Spuffy+Hate quote of the day: "You're just... convenient."

Members:

KingofCretins
redrevo
THE BLUE
vampmogs
Salvation

redrevo

30-05-07, 09:52 PM

Sign me up please.

I'll add a few:

"Here's why. If you don't admit ... that there's something there ... some tiny feeling for me ... then I'll untie Dru, let her kill you instead."

Buffy: "Ask me again why I could never love you."
Spike: "Buffy, my god, I didn't-"
Buffy: "Because I stopped you. Something I should have done a long time ago. "

Buffy: "Will you quit that? The only thing that's different is that I'm disgusted with myself. That's the power of your charms. Last night ... was the most perverse ... degrading experience of my life."

THE BLUE

01-06-07, 10:28 AM

You can sign me up too.

KingofCretins

01-06-07, 09:08 PM

"Say it's true. Say I did want to. It wouldn't be you, Spike. It would *never* be you."

"You're beneath me."

redrevo

11-06-07, 10:30 PM

This thread needs a bump.

From "Beneath You":

"Everything about you is wrong, Spike."

vampmogs

18-06-07, 08:20 AM

Please sign me up :) I've never been a member of a club before on BW or Buffyforums, this is the perfect club to start ;)

Here's a nice little line just to annoy some Spuffy's ;)

"One vampire got me hot, one! But he's gone, you're just- you're just conveniant"

and

"You are dead inside! I could never be your girl!"

Salvation

18-06-07, 08:26 AM

Add me too ^^

bishopcruz

25-06-07, 06:31 AM

Nikki

25-06-07, 01:00 PM

I can please direct Salvation, redrevo (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/member.php?u=55) vbmenu_register("postmenu_10210", true); and THE BLUE towards the stick thread at the top of this section called 'Clubs and Ships rules' ;)

This is a discussion forum, 'can I join' and 'bump this thread with a quote' are not the sort of posts BFN is about. Please discuss your hate of Spuffy or don't post.

I will be forced to close this club if you can't find anything to say ;)

redrevo

25-06-07, 09:53 PM

Thanks Nikki for the reminder, no more bumps coming from here :)

Well then, let's get this going again! We used to be one of the most active clubs on BW, that can't be all for nothing can it?

Without further ado...When did you start hating Spuffy and why?

I started to hate Spuffy back at the end of "Crush," when Spike had Buffy and Dru tied up in his "basement." Before he had been a tad awkwardly funny to watch, but once he threatened to kill Buffy unless she said she had some sort of feelings for him, the whole thing just got pushed over the edge. IMO, if you're willing to hurt or even kill your "loved one" for something other than saving a life, you don't care about the person enough for it to be called "love."

Vyse

26-06-07, 10:24 PM

LOL, you guys truly can't stand Spuffy :D

Before I get beheaded, let me clear this up... I'm not Spuffy ;) And I'm not even Bangel, truth be told ;)

In all honesty though, I don't think Spuffy is so totally negative :p Spike did show in more than one circumstance that he cared for Buffy. Dawn is alive because he didn't tell Glory. I think he does deserve some level of credit for that.

The only truly horrifying thing I ever saw about Spuffy that I find extremely difficult, if not impossible, to forgive is the attempted rape. I saw that scene recently after a long time, and I didn't remember it was so powerful and disturbing. Seeing Buffy screaming like that with Spike not listening but instead being even more determined to force himself on her is just... shocking. And I still have to fully decide if going to get a soul to make up for it is enough to earn forgiveness. But I think all Spuffy shippers were horrified at what he tried to do too.

ykickamoocow

26-06-07, 11:52 PM

vampmogs

27-06-07, 05:48 AM

The only truly horrifying thing I ever saw about Spuffy that I find extremely difficult, if not impossible, to forgive is the attempted rape. I saw that scene recently after a long time, and I didn't remember it was so powerful and disturbing. Seeing Buffy screaming like that with Spike not listening but instead being even more determined to force himself on her is just... shocking. And I still have to fully decide if going to get a soul to make up for it is enough to earn forgiveness. But I think all Spuffy shippers were horrified at what he tried to do too.

Unfortunately a lot of Spuffy shippers tend to lean towards the idea that this was all Buffy's fault and she led him on :err:

I think Spuffy gets a way with too much, perhaps people just want to believe it was more mushy than it really was or perhaps it is because there is such a strong fanbase for Spike but some of the things I hear in support for Spuffy are ludicrous IMO. I can completely agree with redrevo when he states he can't support a relationship in which one member threatens to kill the other if they don't admit feelings for them. I mean c'mon, how could we ever support that? It isn't even if it ends there, we then have Spike taunting Buffy about the fact she came back wrong and physically attacking her for the fun of it. We have Spike telling Buffy that she doesn't belong with her friends, even though he states in Fool For Love they are the only reason she's survived as long as she has, and this is all an attempt to manipulate Buffy to go into the dark with him. And of course we have the attempted rape which is still pushed under the rug for the sake of loving Spuffy.

I always believed the entire point of Spuffy was too show a dangerous and unhealthy relationship, the whole point of the sixth season was to bring the main characters down to their lowest points. So why on earth is there people who try and say it was all about fuzzy wuzzy love and candy when it was anything but? I don't mind Spuffy shippers or realise what the ship was and love it (although I don't see how) for what it really was. However, nothing irritates me more than those who try and paint Spuffy as something it wasn't. Sure it had nice moments; albeit few and far between but the horrible moments far outweigh the nice.

After watching As You Were earlier today I cannot help but feel I need to post a rant about how wrong and damaging Spuffy was.

Firstly; I can't believe myself or any other member who dislikes Spuffy has never brought up what Spike feels he can call Buffy; a "bint." Aside from the fact he is being blatantly rude and ignorant to think Buffy's feelings aren't being hurt as he brags to Riley about doing his girlfriend as she sits next to him, the word he uses to describe Buffy (right in front of her) is extremely offensive. TWOP believes it means, and I'll spoiler this so it remains unseen **** and others believe it means a woman who is easy, easy meat or of easy virtue. Either way it is extremely derogative and yet Spike feels he can call Buffy such a thing and right in front of her? Gah- Spuffy hate is boiling in my blood, and this guy is supposed to love and care for her? Pfftt :bleh:

Secondly, just look at Riley's speech to Buffy in comparison to what Spike says to her throughout s6. Riley is telling her she is amazing, that no matter how hard her life is that she'll pull through because she is one hell of a woman. What does Spike say? Oh yeah that she is wrong, taunting her about being a demon, that she belongs in the dark with him- and that if her friends ever found out they'd drive her out. As You Were really does make a case why Ruffy is just so much better than Spuffy ever was. For Spike, who claims to love Buffy so much; I find it incredibly disgusting for him to act this way towards Buffy and to name her such things as a 'bint.'

And then of course we have the end, when Buffy finally gets her inner strength (From Riley who comes back for one episode and is able to motivate her) to tell Spike it is over. And that she can't love him.

This episode is one of many that seals the deal for me that Bangel and Ruffy are far better than Spuffy.

And I just had to add in something from TWOP that sums up why Bangel will always come up trumps for me in comparison to Spuffy. The reviewer is referring to the scene in the graveyard between Spike and Buffy during Normal Again;

Spike sniffs, "Some people can't see a good thing when they've got it." Ah yes, in retrospect I'm sure Buffy regrets how she casually threw away her chances for more feelings of shame, emotional manipulation, and creepy semi-public gropings.

KingofCretins

19-07-07, 04:36 PM

The relationship is marked by threats, abuse, and insults all the way around. A pattern initiated, unambiguously, by Spike, and then exacerbated by Buffy.

At least some of the appeal of a 'ship must surely be that it represents some idealized relationship, some ability to self-insert, something to emulate. Who, anywhere, is going to look back on a relationship or, in thinking of a current one, say "the relationship needs to be more like Spuffy"?

Firstly; I can't believe myself or any other member who dislikes Spuffy has never brought up what Spike feels he can call Buffy; a "bint." Aside from the fact he is being blatantly rude and ignorant to think Buffy's feelings aren't being hurt as he brags to Riley about doing his girlfriend as she sits next to him, the word he uses to describe Buffy (right in front of her) is extremely offensive.

Yeah, the aftermath of Buffy's "tell me you love me" reassurance sex is to listen in relative humiliation while her current lover basically makes her sound like a more life-like sexbot to her former lover. I assume this is just another example of how Buffy was the dominant partner and all sexually liberated. Completely unlike when she was all helpless and repressed, like when she promised to put Riley and Angel in the hospital if they didn't stow their macho BS. She's obviously a much more powerful female icon in "As You Were".

Spike sniffs, "Some people can't see a good thing when they've got it." Ah yes, in retrospect I'm sure Buffy regrets how she casually threw away her chances for more feelings of shame, emotional manipulation, and creepy semi-public gropings.

Go Ace and/or Sep!

LRae12

19-07-07, 05:06 PM

Unfortunately a lot of Spuffy shippers tend to lean towards the idea that this was all Buffy's fault and she led him on :err:

Well, I for one am not one of those...;) Of course Buffy didn't lead him on...she told him outright she wasn't going to sleep with him again. So, no not Buffy's fault in any way.

I think Spuffy gets a way with too much, perhaps people just want to believe it was more mushy than it really was or perhaps it is because there is such a strong fanbase for Spike but some of the things I hear in support for Spuffy are ludicrous IMO.

I agree to an extent. The fanbase for Spike does support the Spuffy ship. I for one can say that Spike is my favorite character and it goes a long way to the Spuffy love...:) As far as 'mushy' - no I never saw it that way at all.

I can completely agree with redrevo when he states he can't support a relationship in which one member threatens to kill the other if they don't admit feelings for them. I mean c'mon, how could we ever support that?

But see, what you don't realize is that Spike doesn't know what REAL love is. He's a vampire. He 'loved' Drusilla but at the end of Lover's Walk he said he was going off to tie her up until she liked him again. It's what he knew.

It isn't even if it ends there, we then have Spike taunting Buffy about the fact she came back wrong and physically attacking her for the fun of it. We have Spike telling Buffy that she doesn't belong with her friends, even though he states in Fool For Love they are the only reason she's survived as long as she has, and this is all an attempt to manipulate Buffy to go into the dark with him.

Well, yeah...he's a vampire. He's manipulative and twisted. Again, it's what he knew.

And of course we have the attempted rape which is still pushed under the rug for the sake of loving Spuffy.

See, I don't see it as being pushed under the rug...at least not from my own personal point of view. I think it was more a turning point. It was a wake up call to Spike. In his own twisted way, he did care about Buffy, and without a soul or conscience he realized how wrong he was. Just on sheer feelings alone. The AR was absolutely revolting and wrong. Not a highlight in the Spuffy ship, but a breaking point.

I always believed the entire point of Spuffy was too show a dangerous and unhealthy relationship, the whole point of the sixth season was to bring the main characters down to their lowest points.

I absolutely agree. I view S6 Spuffy as a downward spiral for Buffy. In the first half, ok, there was some sweeter moments, but from Smashed on it turned to dark and twisted, and I think it was meant to. I don't think the writers intended for it to be 'true love' in this season because it wasn't. It was about...well, Buffy summed it up nicely herself in Wrecked when she said 'last night was the most perverse, degrading experience of my life'. I think S6 Spuffy was all about Buffy trying to be as degrading to herself as she could. Because she didn't believe she WAS truly human, so what was the point of being 'pure'?

So why on earth is there people who try and say it was all about fuzzy wuzzy love and candy when it was anything but? I don't mind Spuffy shippers or realise what the ship was and love it (although I don't see how) for what it really was. However, nothing irritates me more than those who try and paint Spuffy as something it wasn't. Sure it had nice moments; albeit few and far between but the horrible moments far outweigh the nice.

In S6, I would agree. But I don't personally think S6 Spuffy is where the real 'love' in the ship entered...it entered in S7 once Spike got his soul and could FINALLY comprehend what love is.

After watching As You Were earlier today I cannot help but feel I need to post a rant about how wrong and damaging Spuffy was.

Firstly; I can't believe myself or any other member who dislikes Spuffy has never brought up what Spike feels he can call Buffy; a "bint." Aside from the fact he is being blatantly rude and ignorant to think Buffy's feelings aren't being hurt as he brags to Riley about doing his girlfriend as she sits next to him, the word he uses to describe Buffy (right in front of her) is extremely offensive. TWOP believes it means, and I'll spoiler this so it remains unseen **** and others believe it means a woman who is easy, easy meat or of easy virtue. Either way it is extremely derogative and yet Spike feels he can call Buffy such a thing and right in front of her? Gah- Spuffy hate is boiling in my blood, and this guy is supposed to love and care for her? Pfftt :bleh:

Secondly, just look at Riley's speech to Buffy in comparison to what Spike says to her throughout s6. Riley is telling her she is amazing, that no matter how hard her life is that she'll pull through because she is one hell of a woman. What does Spike say? Oh yeah that she is wrong, taunting her about being a demon, that she belongs in the dark with him- and that if her friends ever found out they'd drive her out. As You Were really does make a case why Ruffy is just so much better than Spuffy ever was. For Spike, who claims to love Buffy so much; I find it incredibly disgusting for him to act this way towards Buffy and to name her such things as a 'bint.'

And then of course we have the end, when Buffy finally gets her inner strength (From Riley who comes back for one episode and is able to motivate her) to tell Spike it is over. And that she can't love him.

Again, Spike was a soulless monster...so he's twisted and doing what came naturally...I'm not making excuses for him, just stating a fact...;)

The real Spuffy ship began in Lessons. Their past sexcapades added a history, obviously, and of course being a Spuffy fan I enjoyed S6 to an extent, but the beauty of the ship is in Spike's redemption. Because he was so horrified with himself for the AR - which being soulless and conscience-less is a feat in itself - he seeks out his soul. On his own. Not understanding the full consequences of that at the time. Once he has his soul, everything changes. HE realizes how he treated Buffy and how horrible and disgusting it was...yet he tries to make amends all through S7. And at the end he sacrifices his life for her and the world...that's love. To lay your life down for others. And even into Ats, he loved Buffy enough to realize he wasn't right for her, to stay away.

People want to criticize Spike's treatment of Buffy in S6 like they would if he had a soul. But what everyone fails to realize or ignore is the fact that he didn't.

This episode is one of many that seals the deal for me that Bangel and Ruffy are far better than Spuffy.

Angelus didn't treat Buffy any better - in fact MUCH worse than Spike. But everyone accepts that Angel and Angelus are two different people...so are Spike & Soulful!Spike. I don't think it's fair to base hate of a ship solely on S6...of course that's your right...:hug: but S7 shows a much better and healthy relationship based on respect, trust, and forgiveness. Which if Buffy can forgive Spike for what he did to HER, then I think we can cut him some slack as well. :D

Ok, :hide: don't beat me to death with a shovel now...:fryingpan:

THE BLUE

20-07-07, 10:46 AM

I always believed the entire point of Spuffy was too show a dangerous and unhealthy relationship, the whole point of the sixth season was to bring the main characters down to their lowest points. So why on earth is there people who try and say it was all about fuzzy wuzzy love and candy when it was anything but? I don't mind Spuffy shippers or realise what the ship was and love it (although I don't see how) for what it really was. However, nothing irritates me more than those who try and paint Spuffy as something it wasn't. Sure it had nice moments; albeit few and far between but the horrible moments far outweigh the nice.

I hate the 6th Season because of Spuffy and bringing the characters to their lowest. I mean, moments of being at lowest can be tolerated but it being for the whole season? Spuffy is seen as a loyal and naturalistic and realistic love story and I can't see that. I don't buy the "Spike loved Buffy too much and she treated him badly" argument either.

vampmogs

20-07-07, 02:48 PM

Well, I for one am not one of those...;) Of course Buffy didn't lead him on...she told him outright she wasn't going to sleep with him again. So, no not Buffy's fault in any way.

And your proof that not all Spuffy fans are completely blinded by their love for Spike or the ship in general. Of course there are others like you, on this forum as well, however unfortunately I come across a lot of them that give the rest of you a bad name. I am sure there are the same fans for Bangel and even Ruffy as well, but the atrocities committed during Spuffy make it all the more worse when people don't see the extent of damage they resulted in.

I agree to an extent. The fanbase for Spike does support the Spuffy ship. I for one can say that Spike is my favorite character and it goes a long way to the Spuffy love...:) As far as 'mushy' - no I never saw it that way at all.

Somehow some fans do see it as mushy, I could never see why :s The whole point of Spuffy was to be anything but mushy and yet they call themselves fans but can't bring to see the relationship as what it was meant to be. As for liking a ship based on your character, well I don't see why this happens. My fave is Buffy but I don't automatically like any relationship she is in, in fact I like her best alone. But I guess that's just me.

But see, what you don't realize is that Spike doesn't know what REAL love is. He's a vampire. He 'loved' Drusilla but at the end of Lover's Walk he said he was going off to tie her up until she liked him again. It's what he knew.

I'd like to think I do realise that, and hence the problem I find when trying to talk about Spuffy with few selected fans who believe Spike is capable of love. One reason I dislike Spuffy is because Buffy is sleeping with a soulless vampire, it isn't Angel this is Spike and he is evil and only unable to kill because of the chip unwillingly placed in his head.

Well, yeah...he's a vampire. He's manipulative and twisted. Again, it's what he knew.

And is why I hate the relationship ;)

See, I don't see it as being pushed under the rug...at least not from my own personal point of view. I think it was more a turning point. It was a wake up call to Spike. In his own twisted way, he did care about Buffy, and without a soul or conscience he realized how wrong he was. Just on sheer feelings alone. The AR was absolutely revolting and wrong. Not a highlight in the Spuffy ship, but a breaking point.

Well did he realise how wrong he was? At first he is upset about it but then asks himself, "why didn't I do it?" then asks "what has SHE done to me," as if this is somehow, what Buffy's fault? I never think he fully realised he did something bad, he couldn't really understand just how bad his actions were. All he knew is Buffy didn't like it and he just demolished any chances he had of having a relationship with her- hence he feels a soul will win Buffy over.

I absolutely agree. I view S6 Spuffy as a downward spiral for Buffy. In the first half, ok, there was some sweeter moments, but from Smashed on it turned to dark and twisted, and I think it was meant to. I don't think the writers intended for it to be 'true love' in this season because it wasn't. It was about...well, Buffy summed it up nicely herself in Wrecked when she said 'last night was the most perverse, degrading experience of my life'. I think S6 Spuffy was all about Buffy trying to be as degrading to herself as she could. Because she didn't believe she WAS truly human, so what was the point of being 'pure'?

I completely agree. And please can you post in the Spuffy shippers club because I've had one member state that you can't be a Spuffy fan if you see the ship in this way; it'd be great to prove them wrong. :)

In S6, I would agree. But I don't personally think S6 Spuffy is where the real 'love' in the ship entered...it entered in S7 once Spike got his soul and could FINALLY comprehend what love is.

I don't entirley view s7 as Spuffy though, s6 was when the relationship actually kind of existed. In s7 Buffy actually has attraction to Wood, thinking she liked him. Buffy also asks Spike if it has to mean anything when they sleep next to eachother- and apart from that they aren't in anyway in a relationship, more than a friendship than anything else.

Again, Spike was a soulless monster...so he's twisted and doing what came naturally...I'm not making excuses for him, just stating a fact...;)

A fact many Spuffy shippers fail to see. You'll notice lots of my posts are directed in a way that I'm trying to show people how bad he was because lots of members I come across believe he is a good vampire, or is capable of the kind of love Angel or Riley was. It may seem like I don't understand Spike is evil, but I do and that's why I hate the relationship- because it is twisted and sick and damaging to my fave character.

The real Spuffy ship began in Lessons. Their past sexcapades added a history, obviously, and of course being a Spuffy fan I enjoyed S6 to an extent, but the beauty of the ship is in Spike's redemption. Because he was so horrified with himself for the AR - which being soulless and conscience-less is a feat in itself - he seeks out his soul. On his own. Not understanding the full consequences of that at the time. Once he has his soul, everything changes. HE realizes how he treated Buffy and how horrible and disgusting it was...yet he tries to make amends all through S7. And at the end he sacrifices his life for her and the world...that's love. To lay your life down for others. And even into Ats, he loved Buffy enough to realize he wasn't right for her, to stay away.

Well as you state below, Angel and Angelus are two different things as are soulless and soulful Spike. Therefore Buffy is engaging in a relationship with a different vampire in s7 than she was in s6, yet people act as if they are the same person.

People want to criticize Spike's treatment of Buffy in S6 like they would if he had a soul. But what everyone fails to realize or ignore is the fact that he didn't.

I think more commonly they ignore he doesn't have a soul and try and make him more like Angel. Many Spuffy shippers say Spike did no wrong, that Buffy used him he was a victim and that he respected and loved her. He didn't, he was evil.

Angelus didn't treat Buffy any better - in fact MUCH worse than Spike. But everyone accepts that Angel and Angelus are two different people...so are Spike & Soulful!Spike. I don't think it's fair to base hate of a ship solely on S6...of course that's your right...:hug: but S7 shows a much better and healthy relationship based on respect, trust, and forgiveness. Which if Buffy can forgive Spike for what he did to HER, then I think we can cut him some slack as well. :D

I agree. They should be regarded as two different people which is why I don't view Spuffy s7 as the same Spuffy in s6. Just like I would view a Buffy/Angelus relationship as an entirley different thing to Bangel.

Ok, :hide: don't beat me to death with a shovel now...:fryingpan:

I actually like talking to Spuffy fans like you, basically we have all the same views except for the fan one of us likes the ship and the other hates it. :D

KingofCretins

20-07-07, 03:04 PM

Spike with and without his soul is never treated as a metaphysically separate entity the way that Angel is -- that's one of the biggest double standards in the fandom, especially since "Spuffy" is treated as inclusive of Season 7, after he got his soul.

Somehow some fans do see it as mushy, I could never see why The whole point of Spuffy was to be anything but mushy and yet they call themselves fans but can't bring to see the relationship as what it was meant to be. As for liking a ship based on your character, well I don't see why this happens. My fave is Buffy but I don't automatically like any relationship she is in, in fact I like her best alone. But I guess that's just me.

Overall, I like Spike pretty well. But I don't like Spuffy at all.

vampmogs

20-07-07, 03:19 PM

Spike with and without his soul is never treated as a metaphysically separate entity the way that Angel is -- that's one of the biggest double standards in the fandom, especially since "Spuffy" is treated as inclusive of Season 7, after he got his soul.

In no way intending to insult the intelligence of the Buffyverse fanbase but it boils down to the name. It is so much easier to have two distinctive entities when their names are different than it is when the entity keeps his name. And as you said, Spuffy is treated as inclusive of season 7 which is something I don't agree with, and through Buffy's actions it doesn't appear she views it like this as well. Buffy's behaviour is distinctively different to Spike after learning he got his soul, and whilst people ultimately assume she forgave Spike for the AR I do not, after all she wasn't with the same monster who had done that. If she was then she would have treated him throughout the season the same way she did in Beneath You until she realised he now had a soul. IMO Buffy views the Spike situation the same way she viewed the Angel/Angelus calamity.

Overall, I like Spike pretty well. But I don't like Spuffy at all.

Overall, Spuffy ruined Spike's character for me. I didn't like how pathetic he became, I think he lost his charming qualities which I found great to watch. It wasn't a matter of me hating Spuffy because I hated Spike, my hate of Spuffy made me dislike Spike.

ykickamoocow

21-07-07, 10:25 AM

Overall, Spuffy ruined Spike's character for me. I didn't like how pathetic he became, I think he lost his charming qualities which I found great to watch. It wasn't a matter of me hating Spuffy because I hated Spike, my hate of Spuffy made me dislike Spike.

Agreed. I actually like Spike in season 5 and felt his character was very well used. Spike was a far better recuring character (like he was seasons 2 to 5) than he was a main character (like in seasons 6 and 7). He got way to much air time in the last 2 seasons.

vampmogs

21-07-07, 02:31 PM

Agreed. I actually like Spike in season 5 and felt his character was very well used. Spike was a far better recuring character (like he was seasons 2 to 5) than he was a main character (like in seasons 6 and 7). He got way to much air time in the last 2 seasons.

He most certainly did. And aside from my general bitterness that he stole screen time from the core characters like Willow, Xander and Giles whom I'm far more emotionally invested in- I don't feel that his character has what it takes to sustain the screen time he was given. Some characters can't cut being in the spotlight the whole time, their charm begins to fade and IMO this is what happened with Spike. As a recuring character or as part of the cast with a more minimal role I think his character was far more interesting.

Julian

25-07-07, 12:30 PM

vampmogs

25-07-07, 03:32 PM

Hey guys, sign me up will you?

To make it short: Things I hate about Spuffy:

- It would never have happened had Giles or Joyce been around.
- It would never have happened if Buffy was emotionally fine.
- It would never have happened if Buffy was not feeling isolated.
- It would never have happened if Buffy's life wasn't falling apart.
- It would never have happened if Spuffy was not (IMO)romanticized as an "unconventional relationship."

There's more, but I'm too lazy to elaborate.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said- except for one thing about it being romanticised as an "unconvential relationship." Sure it may be a nicer way to explain it but unconvential doesn't mean good but it's about the only good thing I can see in the ship. Being unconvential at least makes it unique, however it can also be titled as infamous by some fans.

Julian

26-07-07, 11:16 AM

vampmogs

26-07-07, 11:42 AM

We are in concurrence then. When I said that some people rationalise Spuffy by romanticizing it, I was not giving a compliment. I was making a comment about how the context of the relationship was somewhat warped beyond what it really was. Take for example, the Buffybot incident, the Harmony shagging and the rape scene. Some Spuffy fans tend to ignore these things as bad dreams, as "out of character" or the "writer's fault" (even though it was more or less consistent with how the characters and the relationship was supposed to develop) thus twisting the relationship to suit their own perspectives.

I guess what I meant when I said romanticize was: People aren't as objective as they're supposed to be with regards to Spuffy.

We are in concurrence then. When I said that some people rationalise Spuffy by romanticizing it, I was not giving a compliment. I was making a comment about how the context of the relationship was somewhat warped beyond what it really was. Take for example, the Buffybot incident, the Harmony shagging and the rape scene. Some Spuffy fans tend to ignore these things as bad dreams, as "out of character" or the "writer's fault" (even though it was more or less consistent with how the characters and the relationship was supposed to develop) thus twisting the relationship to suit their own perspectives.

I guess what I meant when I said romanticize was: People aren't as objective as they're supposed to be with regards to Spuffy.

Well in all fairness there are many Bangel fans who act like this as well. :)

I concede I've experienced the same thing, I find it hard to accept when some Spuffy fans don't view the relationship as unhealthy no matter what horrible thing happened but there are also other Spuffy fans who do. IMO Spuffy was designed to be an unconventional unhealthy relationship, it was never designed to be about love and puppy dogs, it was about pain and suffering and darkness.

As I said though, some Bangel fans are like this as well although I think you find it more with Spuffy fans simply because Spuffy has a lot more questionable parts in the relationship so more often you'll come across these issues. I'm sure if there were more harmful aspects about the Bangel relationship you'd come across just as many fans trying to romanticise them to suit their opinion.

There are many Spuffy fans who don't try and romanticise the relationship, who can appreicate it for what it is and still enjoy it. I personally can't enjoy Spuffy but some like it and each to their own :) As fair as being objective though, well are Spuffy fans supposed to be objective? They are fans of the ship and are kind of meant to be obsessive, that is kind of the point. I don't think they have to be objective they are supposed to biased, it is only when their judgement is completely clouded that it gets a little hard to talk to them but this is only in rare cases and occurs with Bangel/Ruffy and any other ship's fans as well. :)

Julian

26-07-07, 11:59 AM

vampmogs

26-07-07, 12:07 PM

Agreed on everything you said mogs. Some Bangel fans are crazy, like that one person who wanted Angel to turn Buffy into a vamp just so they could end up Happy ever after. And I appreciate those Spuffy fans who can see Spuffy as joss and the writers wanted it to be and not just because they find JM and SMG so adorable together.

Well exactly, that's a prime example of someone being so obsessive over a ship that they'd wish that on Buffy. The same way in which a few selected Spuffy fans fail to see the severity of the AR scene and Spike's actions and don't believe it to be a big thing. This happens regardless of the ship and it is frustrating no matter what but I guess we all have our moments and the majority of fans are smart enough to see things for what they are. :)

As to being objective, I think taking all the pros and cons (without giving it biased interpretations)of a relationship into account qualifies for that. IMO

I really don't know, I think there is a happy medium. Being objective would imply you don't have any personal preferences either way. IMO this doesn't really work for a fan of a ship because they do have preferences, they are fans of that ship. I think as long as their judgement isn't so clouded and they can differentiate between good and bad there is nothing wrong with it; I don't think objective is the right word though, although I'm not sure what you'd call it exactly :p

Julian

25-08-07, 05:15 AM

vampmogs

25-08-07, 09:25 AM

I was planning to post this on the Faith and Spike thread but I thought it a little inconsistent because its spuffy, so I'm posting it here.

Since the planned spin off, places Faith with Spike, I think it follows that Joss, at that time, wanted to end whatever promise of a future relationship Spike could have with Buffy. This can only mean that whatever love Spike and Buffy developed in S7 (she never loved him prior to that IMO, but I believe that in S7 she did or may have) had always been ephemeral and fleeting - in short, Spuffy was never meant to last. Hope that makes sense.

I wanted to open a thread about this but, I think it better to post it here.

What do you think?

It did certainly indicate that Joss at least had thoughts of pairing Spike up with someone else in a rather short amount of time after Spuffy. I don't believe Spuffy was ever designed to last, given that Joss scripts Buffy as thinking about a future in years coming possibly with Angel and not Spike. I think Spuffy was only ever supposed to be a momentary thing, it was never designed to be the epic or true love.

I've just been watching the dailies for Wrecked and came across a scene they cut out of the episode. In the morning scene when Buffy says that Spike is conveniant it was originally planned for Spike to get up, walk towards Buffy and tell her that before she goes voicing any more of her opinions she should remember that he can hurt her now. Buffy then states "right because I came back all wrong, you know what is wrong with me? You"

I wish they kept that scene in, it showed perfectly what was so wrong about this relationship. Spike threatening to violently attack Buffy if she keeps on voicing her opinions.. doesn't sound like a very feminist relationship to me.

Here is the link to the dailies in which the extra part of the scene is played out by the episdoes;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJku2YGzkZc&mode=related&search=

Anon

25-08-07, 07:35 PM

Sign me up, please.

I don't know what Joss was planning to do, but I think it's fairly safe to say that Spuffy died with Chosen.

As for what I don't like about Spuffy, I share the dislike held by others of the dynamics of the relationship. It was pretty much the definition of unhealthy and there's no way I could support that.

As well as being annoyed by Spuffy shippers romanticising the relationship, one of the things that bugs me is when they say Buffy was in charge. She may have been able to set the pacing and tone of the relationship, but one thing she couldn't do that Spike could and should have done was end it. The moment she was able to do that, she did so. As far as I'm concerned, this puts him in control right up until the end.

There is also the argument that Buffy hurt Spike more because she was physically the stronger of the two. We don't know how hard Buffy hit Spike, and he certainly seemed to give as good as he got. Buffy and Spike lived such violent lives anyway that the physical abuse isn't really the problem. It's more the verbal abuse and Spike exploiting Buffy's condition than the physical abuse that concerns me. Certainly Spike was, emotionally, the stronger of the two.

vampmogs

03-09-07, 06:13 AM

As well as being annoyed by Spuffy shippers romanticising the relationship, one of the things that bugs me is when they say Buffy was in charge. She may have been able to set the pacing and tone of the relationship, but one thing she couldn't do that Spike could and should have done was end it. The moment she was able to do that, she did so. As far as I'm concerned, this puts him in control right up until the end.

Yeah I'm with you in saying that I don't see how Spuffy could ever be about her being control, or ever be a feminist relationship. Spike emotionally exploits Buffy when she is depressed, sexually assaults her, calls her a bint right in front of her which means a woman of easy virtue, or easy meat and brags about her as if she is just an object to her past boyfriend right in front of her. Not only this but we also have seens in the dailies that didn't make it to the final cut, in which Spike warns Buffy that before she goes voicing any of her opinions she better remember that he can hurt her now- I mean threatening to physically abuse the woman if she dares speak her mind? How is this feminist?

[QUTEO] There is also the argument that Buffy hurt Spike more because she was physically the stronger of the two. We don't know how hard Buffy hit Spike, and he certainly seemed to give as good as he got. Buffy and Spike lived such violent lives anyway that the physical abuse isn't really the problem. It's more the verbal abuse and Spike exploiting Buffy's condition than the physical abuse that concerns me. Certainly Spike was, emotionally, the stronger of the two.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Angelus hurt Buffy so much because he played mind games with her, he did far more damage to her with his mouth than he ever did with his fists. Spike emotionally manipulated Buffy, used what he knew about her against her and threatened to tell her friends about them against her wish. Whilst it isn't ok to hit her either, what he did verbally was far worse in this instance.

Anon

03-09-07, 07:30 PM

Yeah I'm with you in saying that I don't see how Spuffy could ever be about her being control, or ever be a feminist relationship. Spike emotionally exploits Buffy when she is depressed, sexually assaults her, calls her a bint right in front of her which means a woman of easy virtue, or easy meat and brags about her as if she is just an object to her past boyfriend right in front of her. Not only this but we also have seens in the dailies that didn't make it to the final cut, in which Spike warns Buffy that before she goes voicing any of her opinions she better remember that he can hurt her now- I mean threatening to physically abuse the woman if she dares speak her mind? How is this feminist?I think I can see why that scene never made it to the final cut. I'm not sure if the dailies can be counted as canon, but that comment strikes me as being completely IC for Spike at the time.

Agreed. Angelus hurt Buffy so much because he played mind games with her, he did far more damage to her with his mouth than he ever did with his fists. Spike emotionally manipulated Buffy, used what he knew about her against her and threatened to tell her friends about them against her wish. Whilst it isn't ok to hit her either, what he did verbally was far worse in this instance.I wouldn't say it was OK for either party to hit the other, but I don't think it mattered much. It's kind of difficult to make a moral judgement on this as I can't see it happening in the real world. A mutually abusive relationship between two people who spend half their lives picking fights anyway is pretty improbable, and, even more unlikely to occur in real life, neither seems to do any serious physical damage to the other. Any kind of moral judgement I try to make in this context breaks down and I end up having to disagree with the physical violence out of principle.

vampmogs

04-09-07, 12:55 AM

I think I can see why that scene never made it to the final cut. I'm not sure if the dailies can be counted as canon, but that comment strikes me as being completely IC for Spike at the time.

I wouldn't call them canon but it does give us an insight into the writer's thoughts when writing this scene and how they portrayed Spike so I think it can be quite telling. Why it was cut of the episode? Well I'm not sure, it could have been as simple as them running out of time.

I wouldn't say it was OK for either party to hit the other, but I don't think it mattered much. It's kind of difficult to make a moral judgement on this as I can't see it happening in the real world. A mutually abusive relationship between two people who spend half their lives picking fights anyway is pretty improbable, and, even more unlikely to occur in real life, neither seems to do any serious physical damage to the other. Any kind of moral judgement I try to make in this context breaks down and I end up having to disagree with the physical violence out of principle.

Yeah I see what you mean. It is almost as if were are saying that if you are physically strong and are known to get into violent confrontations anyone should have the right to beat you in the face regardless of the situation and it shouldn't matter, that doesn't really work for me either :) I don't think it is right on principle to hit Buffy either, I can't really see any fan whether they be for or against Spuffy saying that they'd have no problems with someone hitting them repeteadly because their body could take it.

Anon

04-09-07, 07:43 PM

I wouldn't call them canon but it does give us an insight into the writer's thoughts when writing this scene and how they portrayed Spike so I think it can be quite telling. Why it was cut of the episode? Well I'm not sure, it could have been as simple as them running out of time. My theory is that it was considered OTT and left out for that reason. That, plus it would be rather stupid for Spike to be threatening Buffy given that he wasn't any real threat to her, even without the chip. I don't suppose you can tell me how Buffy responded to that threat?

redrevo

05-09-07, 12:56 AM

I don't suppose you can tell me how Buffy responded to that threat?

I'll take this as an actual question (rhetorical questions are hard to tell over the internet) - from what I remember, in the dailies she said:

"Yeah, because I 'came back wrong.' You know what's wrong with me? You."

vampmogs

05-09-07, 04:59 AM

Yeah that is what she said back, which was great and I completely agree with her. At that moment time he was exactly what was wrong with her, I loved how she stood up to him that way. Pity it didn't make the final cut though.

Anon

05-09-07, 08:26 AM

I'll take this as an actual question (rhetorical questions are hard to tell over the internet)It was an actual question.

"Yeah, because I 'came back wrong.' You know what's wrong with me? You."Thanks. Now that I've got both the threat and the response, I'm starting to agree with Mogs about it being a pity that it didn't make the final cut.

June

28-09-07, 06:54 PM

I'm clearly a Spuffy, but I'm more of a fan of fanon Spuffy, which exists solely in fic and I only read the ones pre-s6.

However, I did like the relationship in season 6, but I liked it for what it was - a fictional relationship based on sexual attraction, loathing, self-hate, manipulation and abuse. It was interesting because it was different from most of the other 'ships in the series, in my opinion. I would never condone anything close to this 'ship in reality, but I'm a fan of their relationship in season 6 the same way I'm a fan of dark fic, and Angelus/Xander. ;p

I think it's utterly disgusting that anyone would blame Buffy for the attempted rape. I do think she's a little at fault, but not even close to at fault as Spike is. Spike could have easily decided not to do it, even if Buffy had slept with him after saying 'no' many times before that, it's not her fault that he had made that decision. I'm surprised *I* was so shocked by it when it happened, because I honestly should have saw it coming. I think a lot of the Spuffy fans that think Buffy's completely at fault are immature and unintelligent Spike fans - there are quite a lot of intelligent people that are fans of Spuffy and Spike that don't think that way.

cheryl4ba

01-10-07, 07:23 AM

I don't like Spuffy because it painted Buffy in such a dark place. Honestly, it would be very easy for me to say that Buffy would have never done something like that, prior to actually watching it.

I don't like the way Spike taunted and threatened Buffy. Mocked her about what he always knew to be better than killing a slayer. I don't like it that Spike used Buffy's suicidally depressed state to weasel his way inside. I don't like it that he tried to rape her or that we were shown she was so upset with her life, and being with a soulless monster, that she preferred staying in the asylum than facing that life.

I don't like it that a portion of the fandom hate Buffy because they feel poor soulless, murdering, rapist, Spike got hurt. I don't like the way Spuffy is talked about by some of the fandom as a beautiful and complex love story, when in reality, it is nothing more than a lesson in making mistakes, self hatred and abusive manipulation.

Because of "Spuffy", there is a season out there that I cringe when I think about reviewing. Although it was pretty short lived and Buffy did find her way out of Spike's web of deception, two seconds in that world was too long for me as a Buffy fan.

KingofCretins

01-10-07, 07:59 AM

Excellent first contribution to the club, cheryl. I'll update you as a member if you want :)

Forget the fans being against Buffy in favor of Spike; how about some of the writing staff? A lot of Marti Noxon interviews would give you the impression that Buffy and Spike are co-main characters in the series.

cheryl4ba

02-10-07, 03:09 AM

Thanks and yes, please add me to the list.
You know, MN was actually one of my favorite writers, when Joss was there full time. Given a direction, she is one heck of a writer, imo.

I think more than any one writer, it was a combination of ALL of them not being able to agree on who and what Spike was or who Buffy is. Season 6, the Spuffy era, was layered with inconsistency after inconsistency. What one writer thought, was totally invalidated the very next ep. When FPJ spoke of the sillyness that SMG had to endure, I believe that is what he meant.

Another thing I really dislike about Spuffy, is what it did to the fandom at large and how your feelings about Spike can change because of fans who want to pit him against Buffy and even Angel. For me, it doesn't get any better than Buffy, The Scoobies or Angel.

alexa

02-10-07, 03:49 AM

Sign me up as well. Spuffy just annoyed the ever loving hell out of me. Especially in S7.

From Crush:

WILLOW: They could have the wedding right there. Beneath the very bell-tower where he labored thanklessly for all those years.

TARA: No, see, it can't, it can't end like that, 'cause all of Quasimodo's actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding of right. Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back. (They come to a vending machine and stop walking. Tara digs in her purse. Willow looks in hers as well) Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy.

Thank god for David Fury. I used to post that quote in the Spuffy v Bangel threads as a sign of what's to come for Spike. Didn't realize other people got that subtext aswell :)
But to add I only 'hate' Spuffy in Season sex (not a spelling mistake)... kinda grew on me after.:err:

Really interesting thread though. I was also a little pissed off that the series kind of turned into the Tales of Spike and occasionally Buffy. I love the story of Spike as a whole, but I found season six hard to watch.. and almost turned off the show around then because everyone wanted to kill themselves and there was hardly any scooby interaction. Even the lighting in the show changed as soon as Buffy comes out of her grave. I see why they really needed to pay off raising someone from the dead, but bloody hell, they couldn't have gone much darker, and having done so they isolated the backbone of the show, which apart from the emotional strength of Buffy (on her own) was the friendship between the characters. I can now, watch the season and enjoy it more for what it was, but it wasn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer... it's a totally different show. Which isn't always a bad thing, but I enjoyed the other ways of storytelling that were used in the other six seasons. Even season 7 has a little too much focus on Spike and Buffy for my liking, but at least there was a little less depression.

cheryl4ba

02-10-07, 01:13 PM

David Fury was pretty anti-Spuffy and you do have to love him for that. :p
Of all the writers, I saw Joss as being the most anti-Spuffy. The way he wrote Buffy with Spike, doesn't leave a lot of room for wank. Buffy started the whole nightmare with the notion that it wasn't even real. If it had to happen, I'm glad it wasn't portrayed as anything other than a mistake.