8.06 "No Future For You", Part I Discussion thread

[KingofCretins]

Wanted to go ahead and get the discussion thread started, and I'll lead it off with something spoilery.

Brian K. Vaughan gave an interview to Wizard where he talked about the arc, and it included another new preview page from Issue #6. From the black border, we've learned that we can already assume this is probably a dream... but, yet again, it appears to be Buffy's. Anybody going to use Amy as an excuse this time?

Buffy's New Dream Panel (http://wizarduniverse.com/_images_/005829/BUFFY26PG19FNL.jpg)

[vampmogs]

Holy Crap!

Ok well now I'm convinced Bander is happening, and from past experience we know that when Buffy gets a new love interest their shirts start coming off a lot more :roll:

Is it typical for the black border to be a dream though? I'm unfamiliar with comics in general but I didn't realise this. Is it possible this could be real?

As far as everything else, well I'm just glad to see a panel with Buffy and Xander on it. I know this is Faith's arc and I can't wait to see her again and deal with her own issues but I'm still really into the scoobies and don't want them to be ignored too much. I know the writers have said that the Twilight story will be advanced so that will be great. :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Holy Crap!

Ok well now I'm convinced Bander is happening, and from past experience we know that when Buffy gets a new love interest their shirts start coming off a lot more :roll:

And, damn, if Buffy doesn't want him...I'm happy to pick up the slack.


Is it typical for the black border to be a dream though? I'm unfamiliar with comics in general but I didn't realise this. Is it possible this could be real?

Not generally a dream signal, but I think KoC was saying that they've used it for that in the buffy comics.

[vampmogs]

And, damn, if Buffy doesn't want him...I'm happy to pick up the slack.

:roll: By her expression it appears she wants him, sorry for your loss :D What I actually like is that they are showing that Xander is working out, which explains why he is so buff. I like that they just didn't make him buff but chalk it up to it being a comic book because that'd be highly unrealistic, showing him working out indicates that he's been training since we've last seen him and who knows, is possibly a very good fighter now. I'd like to see Xander in action to see just how much he has changed. :)

Not generally a dream signal, but I think KoC was saying that they've used it for that in the buffy comics.

Oh I see, thanks, well that does make sense then. I wonder if this will be Buffy's dream or Xander's dream? I'm guessing Buffy's but if it happened to be Xander's that could be very telling about who really kissed her, though I think it is Buffys.

EDIT: I was also thinking about a while back when we were speculating whether or not Buffy may have actually been reffering to Xander when she said "Great Muppety Odin I must that sex!" Is it possible this is a dream she is having about a past encounter with Xander? Perhaps even their first and not just a day dream about something that hasn't happened?

[Impy]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/23/nffugy1.jpg

[NileQT87]

shades of janus--the good slayer and the bad slayer. ironically, we just had ethan in the last arc (he had a bust of janus in halloween).

"chunky and creamy. oh, no, sorry, that's peanut butter."

[Sosa lola]

Ooooh I love that Buffy/Faith cover, and I especially love the Xander/Buffy scene :D For some reason I still don't believe Buffy will end up with Xander. Poor guy.

[Phoenix]

If i wasnt sitting down im fairly sure i would have fallen over after seeing that cover :| It is freaking amazing.

[some spykie ship]

I wonder if the janus cover is an indicator that Ethan might still be alive. As for the Buffy/Xander deal, this is actually the second dream that Buffy has had in which she was trying to get romantic with Xander. Judging by the shock in Xander's last speech bubble, if there's attraction, it's probably on Buffy's part, unless that page was only the beginning of another nightmare. A hot dream turning into a nightmare could have psychological indications that have little to do with attraction. Still, it would be interesting if Buffy is thinking about Xander that way because she's gone too long without that physical contact, or if Buffy really feels for Xander but he's moved on.

[Jenni Lou]

First, I gotta say, sooooooooooooo excited for the new issue!! :D

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/23/nffugy1.jpg

Seriously AWESOME cover and sorry to say, I had to change it to a link because we have forum rules that do not allow directly posted pics to exceed 500px in width.

I wonder if the janus cover is an indicator that Ethan might still be alive. As for the Buffy/Xander deal, this is actually the second dream that Buffy has had in which she was trying to get romantic with Xander. Judging by the shock in Xander's last speech bubble, if there's attraction, it's probably on Buffy's part, unless that page was only the beginning of another nightmare. A hot dream turning into a nightmare could have psychological indications that have little to do with attraction. Still, it would be interesting if Buffy is thinking about Xander that way because she's gone too long without that physical contact, or if Buffy really feels for Xander but he's moved on.

I'm not sure on any part of it but I have so enjoyed the Buffy/Xander scenes so much so far I am just happy we are going to get more soon. :)

[ThePoet's<3]

Really like that Chen Cover!!! Can't wait to see it and hold it in my hot little hands!

Brian K. Vaughn is a favorite writer of mine (LOST: The Brigg) and hopefully combined with one of my favorite characters we should have an awesome Faith arc!!

[some spykie ship]

Issue 6 comes out tomorrow! Yay!! I'm going to Borders on my way home from taking a test to pick up my copy, and I'll have all afternoon to catch up on Faith. Hopefully.

[NileQT87]

read it. MAJOR SPOILERS:

my favorite part is when the only thing it appears faith has learned about acting british is a ****ney accent--it sounded like she was channeling spike there. that dress reveal would have been amazing if it had been in the show. though, the scene is somewhat of a repeat between faith and the mayor, where he has her put on that pink dress. the exchanges between the father/daughter dynamic and the reluctant 'good daughter' faith seem very alike with the two relationships.

giles giving etiquette and high society lessons is a highlight of the issue--especially the bit about which fork faith stabbed him with. nice reference to giles' ripper days concerning faith's history.

my one whine about "gigi" savidge is her hair is a bit too butch. not a fan of her and her sorcerer watcher--meh, i'm not impressed with them as characters at all--which for me seems to be a major shortcoming of the comic book form--the new characters seem so much less fleshed out than even minor one-episode characters felt on the shows.

so, they're kidnapping people--slayers, it seems. and two big beasties do the clean-up. hmm, might faith when her identity is revealed or caught, will she get kidnapped, or get put in with all the other slayers being taken, where she'll get them all out?

and it looks like the buffy/xander workout thing isn't about them, but xander wanting to possibly impress renée.

i wonder how the alternate cover art for one of the following issues, which has buffy and satsu also going undercover with faith--i wonder how they'll tie-in to the lady savidge plot and how they'll be asked to get involved.

[bishopcruz]

How did you get it early?

[ThePoet's<3]

Well... I will tell you how I got it early last time... It wasn't supposed to go out on the shelves for sell until the release day posted by Dark Horse. However, my comic connection sold it to me earlier... :D He didn't mean too it just happened. So, probably a lot of stores have the comics a few days before they actually put it out on the shelf at release date.

A grateful OOPS but he's not making that mistake twice!!! So, I will wait till lunch tomorrow and read it in the HOT HOT car as soon as I can!!!

[vampmogs]

read it. MAJOR SPOILERS:

my favorite part is when the only thing it appears faith has learned about acting british is a ****ney accent--it sounded like she was channeling spike there. that dress reveal would have been amazing if it had been in the show. though, the scene is somewhat of a repeat between faith and the mayor, where he has her put on that pink dress. the exchanges between the father/daughter dynamic and the reluctant 'good daughter' faith seem very alike with the two relationships.

giles giving etiquette and high society lessons is a highlight of the issue--especially the bit about which fork faith stabbed him with. nice reference to giles' ripper days concerning faith's history.

my one whine about "gigi" savidge is her hair is a bit too butch. not a fan of her and her sorcerer watcher--meh, i'm not impressed with them as characters at all--which for me seems to be a major shortcoming of the comic book form--the new characters seem so much less fleshed out than even minor one-episode characters felt on the shows.

so, they're kidnapping people--slayers, it seems. and two big beasties do the clean-up. hmm, might faith when her identity is revealed or caught, will she get kidnapped, or get put in with all the other slayers being taken, where she'll get them all out?

and it looks like the buffy/xander workout thing isn't about them, but xander wanting to possibly impress renée.

i wonder how the alternate cover art for one of the following issues, which has buffy and satsu also going undercover with faith--i wonder how they'll tie-in to the lady savidge plot and how they'll be asked to get involved.

Firstly yeah how did you get it before everyone else, lucky thing!

Now;

Okay so the workout thing wasn't about Buffy/Xander at all? Well there goes a lot of our theories, did it seem like Buffy was into Xander with the smirk but Xander was too busy concentrating on Renee or was there nothing to suggest anything between the two of them at all?

Sorcerer Watcher? Does the book explain why she has a watcher, I thought the watchers council was pretty much all but destroyed. Was he a watcher who survived and decided to turn evil and enlist a slayer to help him? Or was he like Post, kicked out of the council years earlier for dabbling in black magics?

I'm liking that you're drawing comparisons between the Giles/Faith relationship and the Mayor/Faith relationshio- lets hope Giles hasn't got anything nasty up his sleeve. There is speculation that 'retire' might actually mean kill. Though if Giles is forming a strong bond with Faith I wonder what this means for him and Buffy, because I'm dying to see them bond again.

Was Willow in this preview? And how often did the Scoobies appear? Did we hear anything about Voll or if they had taken him prisoner? Or what their reaction is to Warren's return and Amy?

[NileQT87]

well, actually, it never says he's her watcher--an irish sorcerer is what we know. but he seemed awfully watcherly to me... definitely of the gwendolyn post variety if indeed he was.

it looks like gigi is a bit stronger than the usual slayer due possibly to all those black magicks being brandied about by her and the irish sorcerer guy.

i've noticed giles' hair is suddenly brown again. you'd think the comic color guy would at least put a little gray in there. he looks like a very young tony head in the comics.

also, ALY'S/WILLOW'S EYES ARE NOT BLUE!!! they're hazel.

every issue has a handful of drawings that scare me. in one of the last issues it was willow smiling like a smile time victim that disturbed me. in this one it is faith's angry face that makes her lips look huge or face look really weirdly distorted. i recall a few bizarre buffy frames as well several issues ago.

that dress reveal frame, however, is gorgeous and perfect.

as for how i got the comic so early (not really early--today was the release date)... darthscanner. not saying anything else.

[vampmogs]

Okay like Nile I managed to just get the comic..ah.. early :)

I liked it I thought it was pretty good but not a great deal happens in this one I'm afriad.

Gigi most certainly is stronger than your average slayer and does she actually snap the neck of the other slayer with one punch? Ouch!

And don't worry Bander fans whilst Xander may be gearing up for Renee and a sparring session he makes a rambled and fumbly remark about no one in the room checking Buffy out (a room with only him and Buffy in it) after not choosing his words as carefully as he would have liked.

Also, Buffy is having some weird dreams about the queen being dead, very interesting and kinda looks like the demon that burns her body in her dream from Issue 2.

No word on their reaction to Warren being back, Voll or Amy and Willow isn't in the issue.

Also did anyone else spot what appears to be Dr Who coming out the telephone box in London with his sidekick by his side? Crossover between two shows.. mm not sure I liked this.

[NileQT87]

;) have fun with that... early... comic.

what's up with the "the queen is dead" thing? is it that buffy's the queen of the slayers and she's technically dead, or not actually the current of the singularly chosen ones (that would be faith)?

we did get a portrait of queen elizabeth I in issue #2. same issue we got the big beastie that is haunting buffy's dreams. in fact, it is right after the page with the beastie that we get that portrait of elizabeth I as amy is about to stab buffy.

the only thing that i can think of for "the queen is dead" is the following (and speaking of which, brian over at ats season 6 keeps talking about queen lyrics... so perhaps this is a big joss thing for the comics:

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/THE-QUEEN-IS-DEAD-lyrics-The-Smiths/91DED115D338333E482568AB002836A6

my guess? does it have something to do with buffy being lonely?

[vampmogs]

;) have fun with that... early... comic.

what's up with the "the queen is dead" thing? is it that buffy's the queen of the slayers and she's technically dead, or not actually the current of the singularly chosen ones (that would be faith)?

we did get a portrait of queen elizabeth I in issue #2. same issue we got the big beastie that is haunting buffy's dreams. in fact, it is right after the page with the beastie that we get that portrait of elizabeth I as amy is about to stab buffy.

the only thing that i can think of for "the queen is dead" is the following (and speaking of which, brian over at ats season 6 keeps talking about queen lyrics... so perhaps this is a big joss thing for the comics:

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/THE-QUEEN-IS-DEAD-lyrics-The-Smiths/91DED115D338333E482568AB002836A6

my guess? does it have something to do with buffy being lonely?

Haha yes I will.. as will Enderswrath now :lol:

Well the arc's title, 'No Future For You' is actually from a Sex Pistols song about the Queen and her having no future in England. However, I'd think that the arc's title would have more to do with Faith than Buffy, given the arc focuses more on her. Though it is apparent we have some queen like imagery happening here. As you said in Buffy's bedroom there is a picture of Queen Elizabeth just before Amy attempts to murder Buffy, we have Buffy having dreams about a demon creature telling here the queen is dead and of course the arc's title which refers to a song about the Queen and her future; or lack of future. It all seems rather bleak for Buffy.

[Phoenix]

Gosh i wish i didnt read the spoilers, but i cant help it. This issue seems really great :D Im picking up mine tomorow, so excited ^_^

[Impy]

Not my faveourite issue. Bit bland, not much happened. The "Slay the Critics" section answered some questions that we have had on Buffy Forums as of late.

For example, Warren... did he die or did he not?
When "Kaylee Pansieri of Montereal asked Joss why the First was able to take the form of Warren if all this time had had been alive?

Joss responds:

"He was legally dead for like a second. Amy didn't want to tell him 'cause she didn't want to upset him. I forgot, okay?!"

And, the situation on Tara:

When asked if she would be brought back, Scott responds:

"Joss and I haven't specifically talked about this, but I don't see Tara coming back. Resurrections happen because they have to happen and I think Tara's death was pretty final. She's not forgotton though. I just today read over the layouts for an upcoming Joss moments and I guarentee you're in for some tears." He must be talking about #10

[KingofCretins]

With the issue on sale and this being the discussion thread, I think we can drop spoiler tags.

I was pleased with the issue, although it felt like the shortest of the season so far, in terms of story. Faith's voice seems genuine, and I liked the small insights we get into the often inferred history of sexual abuse. I also loved her way of conceding to the job: "It was a salad fork, right?" Heh.

I was pleased that the Xander work-out was not a dream sequence, since their interactions have been the best of the season so far. Also, thumbs up for the idea of Xander sparring with Slayers! I think Joss might be reading either this or the Dark Horse forums or both, at least that discussions on boards come up internally at Dark Horse. Also thumbs up to Xander's completely unambiguous statement that it's NOT like that with Renee for him. There was some decent Buffy/Xander stuff from that scene, and that always is good to read.

Buffy's dreams are interesting -- I don't think that's the same creature Amy appeared as in Buffy's dream. These must be Slayer dreams, but its unclear who the Queen is in Buffy's dream or what the context is for the statement. "The Queen is dead, long live the Queen" is always associated with the idea of succession, of someone ascending to that place. So, if that dream does have to do with Twilight and its agenda, then there must be players we haven't seen yet.

Lady Genevieve is fascinating. I'm sure she'll be just this complete caricature of aristocracy for the British fans, but whether that's a good thing or bad thing for them I have no idea. But, how downright villainous, that she's hunting the Even More Most Dangerous Game... fellow Slayers.

Love Faith's dress. It lifts and separates, as they say :)

A continuity thought -- I loved Xander having a Sunnydale Swim Team shirt! But... did he get it on eBay? Did he have it made? If he owned such a shirt, it went down with Sunnydale. I guess I'll fanwank that his parents left town and had a few of his boxes with them.

[Cambyses]

Not my faveourite issue. Bit bland, not much happened.


I suspect that this is going to be a common problem with the four issue arcs. The first issue is all setup and introducing new characters while the final issue will revolve around a big battle scene. The meat of the story will be the middle two issues.

Works much better when your four acts play out in an hour on TV rather than spread over four months. 22 pages of plot a month is going to get tiresome.

[Cambyses]

I was pleased that the Xander work-out was not a dream sequence, since their interactions have been the best of the season so far.


Agreed.


Also thumbs up to Xander's completely unambiguous statement that it's NOT like that with Renee for him.


Afraid I think that this is wishful thinking on your part. The whole scene was played as one of mortal embarrassment on Xander's part. He isn't going to confess an interest in one of the girls. To Willow, yes, but not to Buffy.


Lady Genevieve is fascinating. I'm sure she'll be just this complete caricature of aristocracy for the British fans, but whether that's a good thing or bad thing for them I have no idea.


Oh yes.

I was expecting some kind of Sloane Ranger caricature, but they haven't quite got the voice right. But there's only so much you can do in a few pages. I did rather like Dr Who (in David Tennant guise) and Rose standing outside a red London 'phone box.


A continuity thought -- I loved Xander having a Sunnydale Swim Team shirt! But... did he get it on eBay? Did he have it made? If he owned such a shirt, it went down with Sunnydale. I guess I'll fanwank that his parents left town and had a few of his boxes with them.

I think that was a throwaway reference to the last time that Buffy saw him with his kit off (at least on screen). But certainly fun.

[NileQT87]

actually, the last time he had his shirt off around her was in first date when he was about to get sacrificed over the seal. but yeah, the last time he was BUFF with his shirt off and people were looking at him like they couldn't believe it--that was probably go fish.

plus, don't we all miss little ol' sunnydale?

actually in this latest dream scene, instead of a rocky lizard-like monster, we have a winged lion with a snake tongue. lions are often representative of power. then there's the whole fact that he's speaking with a "forked-tongue" or saying one thing and meaning another, acting duplicitous.

apparently, the winged lion is the symbol of st. mark the evangelist. the city of venice, italy has a big motif of st. mark's winged lions as st. mark is the patron saint of the city. ...but that might be a little too far for joss, unless he's gone indiana jones on us. the winged lions appear to have originated in babylon and assyria (lamassu), but with human heads. there was also a nancy drew mystery concerning the winged lions of venice.

nonetheless--here are some links about winged lions:
http://www.crystalinks.com/wingedlions.html
http://europeforvisitors.com/venice/articles/winged_lion_of_st_mark.htm

Daniel 7:4: “The first was like a lion [Babylon], and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.”

it's not the first time joss has played with the bible (he brought up isaiah 11:6 with the anointed one). though, it could have been the artist just trying to come up with creatures we haven't seen. but that queen elizabeth I painting didn't seem haphazardly placed either, so i think symbology is going to a big player in joss' comic ventures.

[omri]

That was actually pretty fraking amazing! I totally loved it!! The all Giles/Faith thing was really cool.. It's gonna be really amazing arc!

[Jenni Lou]

Warren... did he die or did he not?

Joss responds:

"I forgot, okay?!"


:lol: I actually laughed out loud when I read that. For realz.


Love Faith's dress. It lifts and separates, as they say :)

:rotflmao:


I actually quite liked the issue and was hungry for so much more. I have thoughts on a lot of it but don't feel like going into it right now.

I do think all the Sex Pistols references are odd.

And that sweater Giles was wearing? WHat the hell was that?! Yellow submarine...it was...a peculiar thing for him to wear.

Loved Faith though. Having to slay the vamp children was heartbreaking and her voice was spot on.

Overall, thumbs up! :)

[Cambyses]

actually, the last time he had his shirt off around her was in first date when he was about to get sacrificed over the seal.


Well, on that occasion she seemed much more interested in Spike's well being than the fact that one of her oldest mortal friends had been strung up and was bleeding to death.

Just another one of those season 7 peculiarities, I guess.

[Cambyses]

I do think all the Sex Pistols references are odd.


Anarchy in the UK, don't you know.


And that sweater Giles was wearing? WHat the hell was that?! Yellow submarine...it was...a peculiar thing for him to wear.


Beatles' sweater. The sort of thing that my Dad would think was funny. But the wrong generation for Giles, who has already been established as a Bay City Rollers (1970s) fan.


Loved Faith though. Having to slay the vamp children was heartbreaking and her voice was spot on.


Yep, although I would like to know what she was doing living in a slum. Shouldn't the new enlightened Watcher's council be looking after its Slayers?

[Jenni Lou]

Beatles' sweater. The sort of thing that my Dad would think was funny. But the wrong generation for Giles, who has already been established as a Bay City Rollers (1970s) fan.

Right. It just wasn't him. I found it a little distracting. :/ Typically, he wears pretty plain sweaters. I wonder why they decided to dress him up in this. It just seemed an odd choice to me.

[omri]

Right. It just wasn't him. I found it a little distracting. :/ Typically, he wears pretty plain sweaters. I wonder why they decided to dress him up in this. It just seemed an odd choice to me.

LOL. I don't think there was any thought given to it :/ I dunno.. It's just seems odd to me that the writers and drawer will pay attention to this really minor detail. Maybe they didn't give it much thought since they thought the fans wouldn't care...

[Jenni Lou]

LOL. I don't think there was any thought given to it :/ I dunno.. It's just seems odd to me that the writers and drawer will pay attention to this really minor detail. Maybe they didn't give it much thought since they thought the fans wouldn't care...

Well, that's just the thing. Obviously there was thought put into it because otherwise why draw a detailed pic instead of just making a plain woven sweater. :lol: I'm not thoroughly annoyed by it or anything, it's an extremely bizarre choice. Perhaps they just wanted to add some color to the bleakness of that slum Faith was living in. Because those frames were quite stark and blue.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

A continuity thought -- I loved Xander having a Sunnydale Swim Team shirt! But... did he get it on eBay? Did he have it made? If he owned such a shirt, it went down with Sunnydale. I guess I'll fanwank that his parents left town and had a few of his boxes with them.

I reckon he made it himself using cafepress or a similar site :D

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Anarchy in the UK, don't you know.

The Sex Pistols, like London buses and posh bitches, are just another shorthand for the fact that, in spite of all temptation to belong to other nations, he is an Englishman. (I'd say they should use more Gilbert and Sullivan, but that would just be interpreted as Wolfram and Hart brainwashing rather than Englishness. ;)

The Englandland code goes like this:

London = buses and phone boxes

Posh Brit = arrogant, cold, Oxbridge

Tough Brit = punk

I think the last one might be an age thing...they're not really aware of any pop culture from the UK since the 70s...?? Or they think the audience won't be?



Beatles' sweater. The sort of thing that my Dad would think was funny. But the wrong generation for Giles, who has already been established as a Bay City Rollers (1970s) fan.


The Beatles are forever! And I always thought the bay city rollers thing was part of the "Mr Giles the Watcher" mask that Giles adopted to paper over Ripper. Or perhaps that's just me fanwanking them away from making him like a shit band.

[vampmogs]

Afraid I think that this is wishful thinking on your part. The whole scene was played as one of mortal embarrassment on Xander's part. He isn't going to confess an interest in one of the girls. To Willow, yes, but not to Buffy.

I'm not really sure about this, the only time Xander really stutters or screws up what he saying is when he rambles "not that anyone here is checking you out, in this room, right now" when speaking about Buffy. Whilst he seemed very certain when he says he isn't interested in Renee like that. He seems more worried that Buffy may have thought he was checking her out than anything else. It is open to interpretation though.

[KingofCretins]

Plus, Xander has always been perfectly at ease talking to Buffy about girls that he had an interest in or playing along with her teasing along those lines. See "Beneath You" and "First Date" in Season 7, and even back at the beginning of "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered".

[Cambyses]

The Sex Pistols, like London buses and posh bitches, are just another shorthand for the fact that, in spite of all temptation to belong to other nations, he is an Englishman. (I'd say they should use more Gilbert and Sullivan, but that would just be interpreted as Wolfram and Hart brainwashing rather than Englishness. ;)


I could just see Giles in HMS Pinafore. He's got the voice for it.


The Beatles are forever! And I always thought the bay city rollers thing was part of the "Mr Giles the Watcher" mask that Giles adopted to paper over Ripper. Or perhaps that's just me fanwanking them away from making him like a shit band.

Yes, he's much more likely to be a Cream or Pink Floyd fan (both referenced on screen). But the reference did date him.

I agree that the sweater was a really odd choice for Giles regardless.

[Cambyses]

I'm not really sure about this, the only time Xander really stutters or screws up what he saying is when he rambles "not that anyone here is checking you out, in this room, right now" when speaking about Buffy. Whilst he seemed very certain when he says he isn't interested in Renee like that. He seems more worried that Buffy may have thought he was checking her out than anything else. It is open to interpretation though.

He spends the first half of the scene hiding behind the punching bag to cover his "sweaty shame".

I do find it suspicious that both he and Renee are actively denying any interest in the other. We shall see. :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I could just see Giles in HMS Pinafore. He's got the voice for it.

Damn. Now I've got an image of Giles in a pinafore and nothing else...



Yes, he's much more likely to be a Cream or Pink Floyd fan (both referenced on screen). But the reference did date him.

I agree that the sweater was a really odd choice for Giles regardless.


Is it weird that I want one myself? (Don't answer that.)

Still haven't managed to get it, just read bits. But looks interesting.

[KingofCretins]

I'd rather have the Sunnydale Swim Team shirt, actually. I would have loved for them to refer to Xander staying on the swim team in his senior season.

Again, I don't buy that Xander would be too embarrassed to talk about an interest in a girl to Buffy -- he's *never* had a problem with it before, even when he was still freely admitting to liking Buffy still. And nobody's given an explanation I can buy into as to how Xander would be okay with dating a subordinate.

Also wanted to cross-post this comment I made on the Dark Horse discussion. Part of it is replying to theories that Roden is the "big bad" of the season being revealed, but some bits of it are separate speculation both about Lady Genevieve and about Slayers, Inc.

To me, Roden feels like middle management, the same way Voll does. Something else is turning the wheels on this Twilight thing. I'm going with Roden as a Little Bad.

About Twilight... if Roden really is part of it, that really changes the context of Voll's whole involvement. Voll seemed to be under the impression that Twilight would be humanity rejecting the supernatural, particularly a super-powered 'master race' of Slayers. It didn't seem he'd be knowingly allied with a warlock or other supernatural forces in general. So, I now think of the military presences as being pawns in this, and not the prime movers. A distraction, if anything, because of how much brute force they can use forcing Buffy to pay attention to that threat.

Lady Genevieve... doesn't seem particularly evil so far. Yes, she murdered that Slayer and clearly is at least complicit in many kidnappings, but there was just something... off there. Like she was operating mainly from a sheltered and privileged life, plus any number of lies she might have been told about herself and Slayers in general. I'm not sure she necessarily deserves what Giles and Faith intend for her.

Something else interesting... the prologue summary changed this issue, in a couple of notable ways. First of all "the American military" has been dropped in favor of "various military forces". I appreciate that for two reasons -- first, it gives the whole threat a more global feel, and second, it takes what could have been a very dubious political analogy out of this story.

Another curious change in the prologue summary is the decision to establish that Buffy's organization is essentially a European one, and not global. Presumably, that means the 10 Slayer teams affiliated with Buffy are all in Europe. Certainly we get no indication that Robin's group or Faith are formally affiliated, since Giles was relying on intelligence to know about what was going on there and not, for instance, a telephone.

I'd be really curious from a planning standpoint why the U.S. in particular would not be included in their plans -- not only does it have the hellnostril in Cleveland, it's the home country of the leaders of the group. Unless they are all fugitives, I'm just not sure I understand why they would try to operate exclusively from Europe and travel anywhere else.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Oh. My. God. Just read the transcript for this issue (thanks so much for doing that, KoC, very handy for us people who can't get our hands on the comics soon enough...).

Having read it, I think I might have to impregnate Mr Whedon with my unnatural spawn RIGHT NOW. Because he managed to get an Alan Moore reference in there. Bless you, Joss, right down to your little fanboy socks :D

[KingofCretins]

Any Alan Moore reference sailed right over my head; I just type down what the peoples say, y'know?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Any Alan Moore reference sailed right over my head; I just type down what the peoples say, y'know?

The bearded Wizard of Northampton. So absolutely very Alan Moore :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Moore

[KingofCretins]

Heh, I just assumed it was like a thricewise; something to be referred to without any obvious explanation. I did like the reference to "The Wall", though.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Heh, I just assumed it was like a thricewise; something to be referred to without any obvious explanation. I did like the reference to "The Wall", though.

It works on both levels I reckon - meta and...what's the opposite of meta? Just the basic narrative level as opposed to metanarrative I suppose.

I missed the wall ref, what's that?

[Cambyses]

I missed the wall ref, what's that?

"You can’t have any pudding, if you don’t eat your meat."

[Wolfie Gilmore]

"You can’t have any pudding, if you don’t eat your meat."

Right, ta - but now I have another pesky question: what wall?

[Cambyses]

Again, I don't buy that Xander would be too embarrassed to talk about an interest in a girl to Buffy -- he's *never* had a problem with it before, even when he was still freely admitting to liking Buffy still.


The context ("sweaty shirtless shame") was key to me. However:


And nobody's given an explanation I can buy into as to how Xander would be okay with dating a subordinate.


I agree that this is a big problem.

[Cambyses]

Right, ta - but now I have another pesky question: what wall?

Pink Floyd, The Wall Album.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Pink Floyd, The Wall Album.

Ahh, gotcha, thanks. That would certainly a be a Giles quote. Though why Faith gets it is beyond me!

[Sosa lola]

Here are some reviews on issue 6 of S8 :)

StephenT - (Review) BtVS 8.06 'No Future For You' Part 1 (http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/23187.html#cutid1)

elisi's humble abode - Writing Faith into a corner... (http://elisi.livejournal.com/285881.html?#cutid1)

shapinglight: Buffy season 8 No 6 (http://shapinglight.livejournal.com/641234.html)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I'm just not sure I understand why they would try to operate exclusively from Europe and travel anywhere else.

Maybe just from a pragmatic point of view – they got the castle cheap? Or Giles has more contacts in the UK that would be useful? And once you’re based partly in Europe, more convenient to stay in the area? (though a bit woolly on where else in Europe they are. It’s the sort of detail that kinda washes over me! You know, anything that says “and the X Squadron is bailng out of a firefight in Southern Spain”….my brain turns off until there’s something less geographical/military going on ;)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

it takes what could have been a very dubious political analogy out of this story.

Quite. One should never forget, there are British Troops in Iraq as well as American ones. Any parallel that forgets that is bang off. But, I never felt that the Twilight-as-American-Army thing represented anything specific (even BSG isn’t a direct Iraq analogy, and I feel that even less here), just the worrying power and lack of accountability that an army can have, and the feeling that some people have that Security trumps all other concerns. So you can go about whacking slayers just in case they might at some future time turn on “normal” humans. But plenty of armies and governments do that, or would like to if they had a big enough army, so it does make sense if it’s not just America. Especially since the slayers are now based in the UK. Bet Gordon’s not happy! It’s even in his home country.

[Anon]

Maybe just from a pragmatic point of view – they got the castle cheap? Or Giles has more contacts in the UK that would be useful? And once you’re based partly in Europe, more convenient to stay in the area? (though a bit woolly on where else in Europe they are. It’s the sort of detail that kinda washes over me! You know, anything that says “and the X Squadron is bailng out of a firefight in Southern Spain”….my brain turns off until there’s something less geographical/military going on ;)It says 'based in', but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have centres of operations elsewhere. Businesses can be based in one country and have offices around the world. I think it just means that all the major control centres are in Europe.

[Cambyses]

Maybe just from a pragmatic point of view – they got the castle cheap? Or Giles has more contacts in the UK that would be useful?

I imagine that they inherited the old Council resources, most of which would have been in the UK.

A Scottish castle does seem like a really odd location for Slayer HQ, unless they were looking for a bit of piece and quiet. You aren't going to get very far afield using helicopters rather than magic portals.

[Cambyses]

Quite. One should never forget, there are British Troops in Iraq as well as American ones. Any parallel that forgets that is bang off.


Well, at least until we finish fleeing Basra. :)


But, I never felt that the Twilight-as-American-Army thing represented anything specific (even BSG isn’t a direct Iraq analogy, and I feel that even less here), just the worrying power and lack of accountability that an army can have, and the feeling that some people have that Security trumps all other concerns. So you can go about whacking slayers just in case they might at some future time turn on “normal” humans. But plenty of armies and governments do that, or would like to if they had a big enough army, so it does make sense if it’s not just America. Especially since the slayers are now based in the UK. Bet Gordon’s not happy! It’s even in his home country.

Well Buffy thinks that she is fighting Uncle Sam, but that doesn't mean that she is correct. An international conspiracy would be safer for Joss.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Well, at least until we finish fleeing Basra. :)

Well, I suppose they were written while we were still there. And...well, I'll stop myself from making further comment as it's not strictly relevant.


Well Buffy thinks that she is fighting Uncle Sam, but that doesn't mean that she is correct. An international conspiracy would be safer for Joss.

Safer? As in in terms of not pissing off the PTB of the USA? Yes, I would imagine so. Though I wonder if he'd worry about that? Hmm... in any case, since they are fighting in various countries, it makes sense that they might tee off the military in different areas...though perhaps the attitude of the American military might be more towards the America World Police side of things?

But yes, it's Buffy's point of view, we haven't had external confirmation of who they are have we? I mean in terms of nationality?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

It says 'based in', but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have centres of operations elsewhere. Businesses can be based in one country and have offices around the world. I think it just means that all the major control centres are in Europe.

True. After all, Wolfram and HArt might be based in LA, but it's got a big old Eurotrash office (seriously, that woman's cleavage? Antoine and the other one could put her in one of their shows).

I imagine that they inherited the old Council resources, most of which would have been in the UK.

A Scottish castle does seem like a really odd location for Slayer HQ, unless they were looking for a bit of piece and quiet. You aren't going to get very far afield using helicopters rather than magic portals.

I'm fanwanking it as some kind of old council training property, nice and out of the way away from prying eyes. And with convenient huntin shootin and fishin for Quentin and pals :)

[KingofCretins]

I'm more of the opinion that *any* war commentary through Buffy would be asinine, so I was glad to see that toned down.

As for the organization, the prologue summary in "The Long Way Home" said "almost five hundred are working around the world with Buffy’s organization in squads..."

Now, it says "Almost five hundred are working with Buffy’s European-based organization in squads..."

So, "around the world" was dropped and "European-based" was added. That really gave me the impression that, while the organization may operate globally, all of it's resources are in Europe. It just sounds like bad planning. We only have canon references to three of the squads by location: the BHC, the team in Rome, and the team in Barcelona (referenced in 8.01). I'm not counting Cleveland now because of the lack of communication.

If there are 7 more around the world, I'd imagine them to be in much different locations than if they are all based in Europe. Globally, I thought there would probably be 2 or 3 teams in the United States, 3 or perhaps 4 in Europe, and the rest spread out between Asia, Australia, South America, and Africa.

I came up with a guess at it a while back that had teams in... Scotland, Rome, Barcelona, Paris, Tampa, New York, Sydney, Tokyo, Buenos Aires, and New Delhi. I assumed a couple of things -- namely that they wouldn't operate out of the middle east or africa for various safety considerations, that they wouldn't operate in the Western U.S. for reasons related to Wolfram & Hart and concerns over whether or not Angel's group was a threat.

Rethinking this for Europe exclusively, I'd guess... BHC, Rome, Barcelona, London, Paris, Berlin, Athens, Vienna, Amsterdam (everyone's favorite assignment), and I can't think of where else to put one, geographically.

[Jenni Lou]

Great ideas, KoC. Personally, I haven't given it much thought. I don't want to over think these kind of things. We fans have a tendency to do that often.

And my reasoning for why they are based in Scotland: to keep a low profile. Pure and simple. After the implosion at Sunnydale and the activation of a couple thousand slayers, the crew needs a place to lay and low and operate. I really haven't given it too much thought beyond that. :/

[KingofCretins]

I've given it more thought than most because it was going to be relevant for "Stormfront", which presupposes at least one of the Slayer teams based in the United States. I actually had come up with a list of 10 cities internationally that were all 2nd or 3rd most populated in their regions, in part to avoid operating directly in cities with W&H branches, since I would assume that given Angel's joining up and pretty much *anything* that the Scoobies could assume about what happened in "Not Fade Away", they would consider W&H a major threat.

I love this story and setting, I love the BHC, there is just so much stuff to play with in Season 8.

[Veverka]

Hmmm. Just got it. It's not that I resent paying the $6... I'm just so tired of being left so hungry for more!

What I loved:
-The pages of Giles/Faith bonding... character time, not plot time. Thank you, that's what I like :)
-Shirtless Xander... mmm. Nummy treat :)
-Shirty Xander... Sunnydale Swim Team... wtf?! Awesome :)
-Seeing Buffy and Xander spend time, not action action action.

What I liked:
-The swinging from the big statue thing, like Faith learned a bit from Angel.
-The interaction between Faith and Wood
-The fact that mobile phones have now been integrated rather than called 'a weapon' and used, like twice! Seriously: they had them all along on Angel, why wait til season seven of Buffy?

What I wasn't so keen on:
-What happened to Faith's redemption?

Other than that, I have less to say than I thought I would.

[Nostalgia]

$6??!!

More like $2.99.

[Heather]

What I wasn't so keen on:
-What happened to Faith's redemption?

Funny, I've been thinking the same thing - and I've yet to read the issue! I've been lurking along, checking out the covers and summaries and interviews and when I first read what Faith's mission was, I was shocked. They've spent sooo much time building up Faith and her desire to be redeemed and to not be a killer and yet here they are, pushing her towards killing a Slayer - a HUMAN, nonetheless. Granted this lady IS an evil Slayer, she's still human. Not some run of the mill demon. I think them pushing Faith back into that murderess role is totally contradictory to and back-tracking on Faith's storyline and growth and redemption.

Again, I haven't read the issue so it's very well possible that they touch on this subject in it, but from my standpoint, it seems very wrong for Giles to be asking Faith to do this AND for Joss and the writers to think it alright to seemingly forget that Faith doesn't wanna be a murderer.

In OTHER news, I for one am so thoroughly jazzed at the fact that Faith is now being featured in these comics. :heart:

[Veverka]

Oh, don't worry Nostalgia!!! I'm in Australia, and although the exchange rate has improved for us dramatically recently, it seems to be the case that for simplicity's sake they continue to double the US dollar cover price... so it's 6 Australian dollars!

[vampmogs]

I was reading a review of Issue 6 today and they were talking about Bander possibilities and brought up an interesting point.

Some of us members on here have speculated that Buffy/Xander may have already had a fling in the year and a half we missed, however, this reviewer points out that if this was the case would Xander have been as embarrased as he was in revealing his "shirtless sweaty shame?" I does kind of somewhat kill the theory that they could have slept together. It was interesting though to see that the idea of them sleeping together isn't on this board alone.

The reviewer does take notice of how Xander rambles about no one checking Buffy out and wonders whether or not Xander is denying his feelings for Renee, really doesn't have feelings for her or is actually completely oblivious to the fact that she even has a crush on him. Notedly, if Xander does end up with Buffy or Renee as far as we can tell, this will be the first relationship he will be in that doesn't require the two to snap at eachother or constantly fight.

As far as the other things being talked about.. the reviewer also brought up an interesting point about Giles and Buffy. We know that Xander hasn't heard from Giles in a while, and now Giles turns up as head of the council for Faith. Interestingly though, does this mean that Giles is running a seperate operation to Buffy and Xander, seeing as they seem to be pretty in charge? Furthermore, we know from spoilers that Buffy pops up in Issue 8 where all chaos ensues. Now if Buffy hasn't kept in contact with Giles and the front cover of the Issue 8 comic is of Buffy and Faith fighting, could it be that Buffy tries to stop Faith from killing Gigi and hence leads to a confrontation between both of them, and possibly results in another blow to Buffy and Giles' relationship?

Other little tad bits I thought was worth mentioning... The line about if it was that easy Giles would get a rifle and kill Gigi himself. On the one hand I like that Giles would do the dirty work on his own if he could, at least he would be willing to shoulder the responsibility. However, since s7 Joss has really favoured dark Giles, we haven't seen much of loveable Giles, more of the shady Giles.. do you think we'll ever get a return of loveable fatherly Giles or is that gone for good? I like both but would like to see both so we don't end up disliking his character.

[Impy]

I think if Xander ends up with anybody it will be Renee. I also think there is more to Renee as it seems. We know Xander is a demon magnet. Buffy isn't a demon. Renee however could be. Undercover maybe?

[bishopcruz]

Well, all Slayers have a bit of demon in them, even Buffy. So his demon magnet thing keeps working, as Renee wants him. Still, I really would like Xander's next ship to be one where he is the agressor in the relationship. Pretty much every relationship he has had thus far has had a girl pretty much throwing herself at him. It would be a nice change.

[Thomas]

I think this arc is a major apart of Faith’s redemption, the part where she gets her redemption. She’s been told she’s had to kill an evil slayer. Faith was once Genevieve. I think Faith will find herself not being able to kill her, resulting in her deciding to help her instead. Which would be like Faith making up for her past mistake through someone else.

As for the “shirtless sweaty shame” Bander scene, I don’t think it kills the theory that they slept together. There could just be some sexual awkwardness. Maybe the slept together and never really dealt with it. So, Buffy walking in on Xander’s work out with him all shirtless and sweaty could be kind of awkward for Xander. Hence, him throwing on a shirt.

[KingofCretins]

I agree that the odds that a Buffy/Xander relationship has already been established, physically, are pretty slim at this point. But, I really don't get how people read that scene as being an "a-HA" moment toward a relationship with Renee.

I don't think he could have been less ambiguous, his expression was even fairly indignant as opposed to playful when he said that it was strictly 'pals'. And, then, of course, his "not that anyone's checking you out" remark. The man seems to still have a thing for Buffy.

Is he shy around her with his shirt off? Sure; even when he was buff back in high school, he was embarrassed to have Buffy, Cordy, and Willow (all nominal romantic interests) see him in the speedo (and all of them appreciating the sight).

[ThePoet's<3]

Well I for one as a Faith-fan am LOVING this story arc!! Yes, this one was a set-up of the characters and plot but I thought it was very weighty with information!!

Like KoC - I was very surprised at some of the "backstory" to Faith being shared between the pages! And goes with my initial feelings towards Faith when she was introduced in the TV show - she had a very lousy childhood!! Her mother was an alcoholic and yes - it does seem there was some type of abuse - either sexual or physical - something that has scarred her abilites to have healthy relationships.

Which is very sad because I was glad to see Robin concerned for her but disappointed that she rejected that kindness.

As for Faith's redemption - I think it is still on the road to recovery. Perhaps she is doing the Sawyer-locamotion (LOST) "one step forward - two steps back". I see evidence of both growth and regression in this issue.

Seems like she is still working through certain issues in her life. These issues could certainly be used against her in this story arc!!! Especially as she has to conform to society's rules.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Giles coming to Faith to be an assassin. I mean, yes it makes since in that she has murdered before, but in the same conversations he is telling her that everyone's past is in their past and it's how we use that to make us better people. How does assasinating another Slayer - no matter how dangerous she is - show a separation from her past?

Lady G is a TRIP!! Somehow, I got the feeling she was hunting people and not foxes before I knew it! But I feel she is being manipulated slightly by the Warlock who is working with her.

I think this arc is a major apart of Faith’s redemption, the part where she gets her redemption. She’s been told she’s had to kill an evil slayer. Faith was once Genevieve. I think Faith will find herself not being able to kill her, resulting in her deciding to help her instead. Which would be like Faith making up for her past mistake through someone else.

I think you are spot on Thomas! I see enough growth in Faith and enough desire to overcome that part of her life to turn away from killing Lady G and either saving her from what she is (I still think she is being "magickally influenced") or trying too - perhaps helping her realize she needs help just as Faith once needed help. Buffy once tried to rehabilitate Faith ( or at least help in the process) so perhaps it's Faith's turn to extend some of that help.

Perhaps Giles coming to her with such a "drastic" offer and an "out" (seeing that she has been looking for one as of late...) is his way of making her face who she is and make the right decisions.

She's drifting again... That's the way I felt when I read the first opening panels. She's alone, she has no friends to keep her grounded so she's drifting from doing the right thing (Slayer-wise) to doing the Faith-thing. This is Giles way of "shaking her back in line".

I liked how she was visably upset (stuck the stake in the wall) after returning from killing all the vampire children in the nest. That would have been pretty traumatic. Maybe she is starting to regret being the "Slayer in charge" for the Cleveland Hellmouth. Before, she could just leave the responsibility to Buffy and do the things that she pleased. But now - she IS Buffy - having to make those weighty decisions - on her own! At least Buffy had Giles and the Scoobies. She seems to be winging it on her own. And her tendency to not get close to people anyway is isolating her all the more.

As for the Buffy/Xander stuff... Sorry - I wish they would just NOT include anything about them in this story arc - give me a "four-issue-break" already!!! LOL!!

(But it was good to see Xander in his Sunnydale Aquatics T-Shirt!!!)

There were lots of good pop culture references in this issue - The Wall, The Sex Pistols, Dr. Who (wish the phone booth had been blue...) etc.

Oh BTW - Scott Allie in the Season 8 D*C panel talked a little about the many complaints they had received from various military families about "Twilight" and "the Big Band US Military" theme.

He said it was not intentional - no more so than the Initiative was in Season 4-5. It just so happens that current events are dictating our thoughts about such matters. No one was very upset about the Initiative because we were not involved in any military events at that time in history.

MORE FAITH!!!

[vampmogs]

I think if Xander ends up with anybody it will be Renee. I also think there is more to Renee as it seems. We know Xander is a demon magnet. Buffy isn't a demon. Renee however could be. Undercover maybe?

Xander hooked up with Cordy who wasn't a demon at that point, had a crush on Buffy who technically wasn't a demon and had an affair with Willow who wasn't a demon. I think the demon magnet is just a funny little thing they do, but his deepest feelings have usually happened towards human girls, even Anya was human at the time.

I agree that the odds that a Buffy/Xander relationship has already been established, physically, are pretty slim at this point. But, I really don't get how people read that scene as being an "a-HA" moment toward a relationship with Renee.

Well na neither do I, I thought the scene if anything established that Xander had some hidden feelings for Buffy. Even Buffy's look when she says "sparring partners" to me had a hint of jealousy in there, I thought it was a great panel regarldess though- looked a lot like SMG.

I don't think he could have been less ambiguous, his expression was even fairly indignant as opposed to playful when he said that it was strictly 'pals'. And, then, of course, his "not that anyone's checking you out" remark. The man seems to still have a thing for Buffy.

The checking out remark stood out for me more than anything about Renee did. Renee seems all too obvious for me, we know she has a crush on him but so far he hasn't done anything to suggest that he feels the same way he seems more brotherly towards her than anything else.

Is he shy around her with his shirt off? Sure; even when he was buff back in high school, he was embarrassed to have Buffy, Cordy, and Willow (all nominal romantic interests) see him in the speedo (and all of them appreciating the sight).

And he was dating Cordy at the time. Though, yeah if he had been physical with Buffy already I don't think he would be embarrased at the age he is now though. But like you said, it doesn't rule out that he still has a thing for her.

Well I for one as a Faith-fan am LOVING this story arc!! Yes, this one was a set-up of the characters and plot but I thought it was very weighty with information!!

It was a pretty big se-up to the arc but I agree that it had enough info in there to still give it some depth, I loved it as well.

Which is very sad because I was glad to see Robin concerned for her but disappointed that she rejected that kindness.

I wonder if he'll make an appearence again this arc, I'm hoping he will. I was actually thinking about it today and I think he may be the one to alert Buffy that Faith has skipped town. We know the scoobs haven't talked to Giles in a couple of weeks, we know that Buffy is going to make an appearence in London, so I'm thinking Robin will ring Buffy up with concern that Faith has gone missing which will eventually lead Buffy to discover she is in London.

As for Faith's redemption - I think it is still on the road to recovery. Perhaps she is doing the Sawyer-locamotion (LOST) "one step forward - two steps back". I see evidence of both growth and regression in this issue.

Yeah I don't really understand why people are asking what has happened to her redemption, as far as I can see Faith is still attempting to redeem herself. Only the jobs she are doing clearly are quite dark and Faith's anger and frustration about this shows she doesn't want to be dark.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Giles coming to Faith to be an assassin. I mean, yes it makes since in that she has murdered before, but in the same conversations he is telling her that everyone's past is in their past and it's how we use that to make us better people. How does assasinating another Slayer - no matter how dangerous she is - show a separation from her past?

I think it is unfair Giles places Faith in this situation because of her past, but I don't think it is the same as how she was before. If Gigi really is a big of a threat as Giles is saying and if she has no hope of rehabilitation then I would support Faith killing her because she is doing it for the good of the world. Though as I said, it is unfair to assume Faith is the best person for the job because she used to be a murderer and I wonder who these people are under Giles' employ and where they got their information from.

Lady G is a TRIP!! Somehow, I got the feeling she was hunting people and not foxes before I knew it! But I feel she is being manipulated slightly by the Warlock who is working with her.

I think you are spot on Thomas! I see enough growth in Faith and enough desire to overcome that part of her life to turn away from killing Lady G and either saving her from what she is (I still think she is being "magickally influenced") or trying too - perhaps helping her realize she needs help just as Faith once needed help. Buffy once tried to rehabilitate Faith ( or at least help in the process) so perhaps it's Faith's turn to extend some of that help.

It could end up being that way. Although as far as we can see Gigi was more surprised that she killed the girl so easily than she was she actually killed the girl. As far as we can tell she has no problems hunting other girls down for support and definitly has that eletist attitude about herself. I don't think she was a very nice person before she became the slayer.

Perhaps Giles coming to her with such a "drastic" offer and an "out" (seeing that she has been looking for one as of late...) is his way of making her face who she is and make the right decisions.

Perhaps, or perhaps he is asking her because she has had no contact with Buffy and he knows Buffy wouldn't immediatly support the decision to have Gigi killed. I'm thinking when Buffy finds out and pops up, things aren't going to go well between her and Giles.

She's drifting again... That's the way I felt when I read the first opening panels. She's alone, she has no friends to keep her grounded so she's drifting from doing the right thing (Slayer-wise) to doing the Faith-thing. This is Giles way of "shaking her back in line".

I'm a little disapointed she hasn't been keeping in contact with Buffy after 'Chosen.' They seemed to finally become friends and had a great understanding, but now Faith is back being alone and isolated and slightly jealous towards Buffy, "I'm not your precious Buffy!" It seems like a step back for her. I also didn't think Buffy would like having no contact with Faith, it always seemed in her character to keep an eye on her after her past but then perhaps the fact that she isn't shows she now trusts Faith more to do the right thing.

I liked how she was visably upset (stuck the stake in the wall) after returning from killing all the vampire children in the nest. That would have been pretty traumatic. Maybe she is starting to regret being the "Slayer in charge" for the Cleveland Hellmouth. Before, she could just leave the responsibility to Buffy and do the things that she pleased. But now - she IS Buffy - having to make those weighty decisions - on her own! At least Buffy had Giles and the Scoobies. She seems to be winging it on her own. And her tendency to not get close to people anyway is isolating her all the more.

Well yeah in that regard I must say I don't feel heaps sorry for Faith. Wood tried reaching out to her, evidently there are other slayers there she could socialise with and yet Faith doesn't want to get close. I can't have heaps of sympathy for her when people have reached out to her and she keeps shutting them out, Faith is her worst enemy a lot of the time.

As for the Buffy/Xander stuff... Sorry - I wish they would just NOT include anything about them in this story arc - give me a "four-issue-break" already!!! LOL!!

I was actually the complete opposite I wanted more! Lol. Not so much more Banderesque moments, although that was fun, but just more scooby interaction in general. I've missed these characters and whilst I love Faith I'll always love the core four a little more :p Just a pity we didn't see Willow this issue, or Dawn but I'm betting they'll pop up in the next issues of the arc.

And from what we know about Issue 10# I'm thinking the issue will be about Willow dealing with Warren being back, her dark past and Tara. Buffy is supposed to cry hard, perhaps we'll finally see her show more sadness for Tara that we didn't get to see in s7.

Oh BTW - Scott Allie in the Season 8 D*C panel talked a little about the many complaints they had received from various military families about "Twilight" and "the Big Band US Military" theme.

I really don't see what their problem is. General Voll is the prick, we already have his suit who also works the army trying to be the voice of reason so it is clearly shown that not everyone in the army is a moron. This issue also shows that Twilight is far more than just the army as well.

[Anon]

The checking out remark stood out for me more than anything about Renee did. Renee seems all too obvious for me, we know she has a crush on him but so far he hasn't done anything to suggest that he feels the same way he seems more brotherly toward her than anything else.I think that was just Xander being Xander. It isn't the first time he's done that after saying something potentially embarrassing.

I think it is unfair Giles places Faith in this situation because of her past, but I don't think it is the same as how she was before. If Gigi really is a big of a threat as Giles is saying and if she has no hope of rehabilitation then I would support Faith killing her because she is doing it for the good of the world. Though as I said, it is unfair to assume Faith is the best person for the job because she used to be a murderer and I wonder who these people are under Giles' employ and where they got their information from.'Used to be a murderer'? I didn't know she'd stopped. Admittedly now she's a reformed murderer, but a murderer none the less.

Actually, I think Faith was a very strange choice if he wanted Gigi dead, as she is the person least likely to go through with killing her. Unless he was still hoping there was a loophole, I don't see why he would choose her.

It could end up being that way. Although as far as we can see Gigi was more surprised that she killed the girl so easily than she was she actually killed the girl. As far as we can tell she has no problems hunting other girls down for support and definitely has that elitist attitude about herself. I don't think she was a very nice person before she became the slayer.Quite possibly not, but I got the impression she's not entirely happy with what she's being asked to do and not just because she's a spoilt brat. You will notice she says she jumps through every 'nasty hoop' put in her way. To me, this suggests at least some conflict about what she is being asked to do.

And from what we know about Issue 10# I'm thinking the issue will be about Willow dealing with Warren being back, her dark past and Tara. Buffy is supposed to cry hard, perhaps we'll finally see her show more sadness for Tara that we didn't get to see in s7.What we know? What do we know? Where is all this information I haven't seen?

I really don't see what their problem is. General Voll is the prick, we already have his suit who also works the army trying to be the voice of reason so it is clearly shown that not everyone in the army is a moron. This issue also shows that Twilight is far more than just the army as well.The whole thing with the military always struck me as being more about people interfering where they don't really belong and when they either don't know or care about what they are doing. I think it's also more about warning of the dangers of being simplistic and veiwing things in black and white than about any particular organisation.

Certainly General Voll seems to be someone who infiltrated the military to exploit it rather than an a representative of them or the US government.

[vampmogs]

I think that was just Xander being Xander. It isn't the first time he's done that after saying something potentially embarrassing.

But surley to ramble something like that indicates that your scared the other person may think you like them, and these fears are usually there for a reason. As for instance, could you see Xander rambling like that to Willow or to Giles? We have seen him ramble like that to Faith in her motel room though.

'Used to be a murderer'? I didn't know she'd stopped. Admittedly now she's a reformed murderer, but a murderer none the less.

I think you know exactly what I meant ;)

Actually, I think Faith was a very strange choice if he wanted Gigi dead, as she is the person least likely to go through with killing her. Unless he was still hoping there was a loophole, I don't see why he would choose her.

I disagree. In the issue Giles talks to Faith about how they share a lot in common, how because of the unfortunate choices they made in the past, they have to shoulder the unpleasent burdens in the present. Giles compares himself to Faith here, if he feels this way about himself than he evidently feels this way about Faith. As far as Faith being the least likely to kill her, I don't really see why? We've seen this issue alone that Faith is still boardering on the darkness, as far as I can see Renee, Leah and Satsu look like less candidates to kill this slayer than Faith. She most certainly appears to come ahead of most of the slayers we have seen.

Quite possibly not, but I got the impression she's not entirely happy with what she's being asked to do and not just because she's a spoilt brat. You will notice she says she jumps through every 'nasty hoop' put in her way. To me, this suggests at least some conflict about what she is being asked to do.

Perhaps, but evil people can still consider what they are doing as evil or as nasty and not feel any remorse for doing it. I think if anything, going ahead and doing something evil whilst being able to see that it is evil makes you worse than if you were incapable of understanding your actions.

What we know? What do we know? Where is all this information I haven't seen?

What we know is that Allie said in Issue 10 Buffy "cries...hard." We also know that Joss had to go three pages over in dialouge because he just couldn't stop Buffy and Willow talking. Given the recent conclusion of Issue 4 I feel Buffy/Willow will be talking about Warren being alive again and what that means for Willow which I think will lead to Tara given that I doubt Buffy is crying with joy that Warren is alive. I think the issue could also deal with what Willow may have been up to over the year and a half we have missed. Pure speculation on my part, but speculation resulting from what we've been told about Issue 10. Given this arc is going to be heavily Faith orientated and if Issue 6 is anything to go by, we aren't going to get a heck of a lot scooby interaction.

The whole thing with the military always struck me as being more about people interfering where they don't really belong and when they either don't know or care about what they are doing. I think it's also more about warning of the dangers of being simplistic and veiwing things in black and white than about any particular organisation.

I don't think Voll views things as being black and white, if he did surley you'd have to say slayer= good, demons = bad.

[Anon]

But surley to ramble something like that indicates that your scared the other person may think you like them, and these fears are usually there for a reason. As for instance, could you see Xander rambling like that to Willow or to Giles? We have seen him ramble like that to Faith in her motel room though.Well, maybe.

I disagree. In the issue Giles talks to Faith about how they share a lot in common, how because of the unfortunate choices they made in the past, they have to shoulder the unpleasant burdens in the present. Giles compares himself to Faith here, if he feels this way about himself than he evidently feels this way about Faith. As far as Faith being the least likely to kill her, I don't really see why? We've seen this issue alone that Faith is still bordering on the darkness, as far as I can see Renee, Leah and Satsu look like less candidates to kill this slayer than Faith. She most certainly appears to come ahead of most of the slayers we have seen.The whole thing with Faith trying to atone and her past could very easily get in the way of the mission. Even though she understands the need, she is trying to make up for having killed several people and to go back to killing again wouldn't necessarily be easy.

Perhaps, but evil people can still consider what they are doing as evil or as nasty and not feel any remorse for doing it. I think if anything, going ahead and doing something evil whilst being able to see that it is evil makes you worse than if you were incapable of understanding your actions.It's a little difficult to judge based on what we are shown.

What we know is that Allie said in Issue 10 Buffy "cries...hard." We also know that Joss had to go three pages over in dialogue because he just couldn't stop Buffy and Willow talking.Thanks for the information.

I don't think Voll views things as being black and white, if he did surley you'd have to say slayer= good, demons = bad.I think he classifies slayers as demons.

[vampmogs]

The whole thing with Faith trying to atone and her past could very easily get in the way of the mission. Even though she understands the need, she is trying to make up for having killed several people and to go back to killing again wouldn't necessarily be easy.

To us, yes but to Giles, well I could see why he'd think differently. Giles doesn't know a great deal about Faith, he hasn't seen what we have seen and he is making comparisons with Faith and himself. The issue actually gave great insight into why Giles has always been the one to make the big decisions, why he feels he is the one to "say and do what other people can't, what they shouldn't have to." It is almost as if he feels because of his bad decisions he should be the one shouldering the hard aspects of the gig, as if he deserves it.

I thought he classified slayers as demons.

Well not exactly, he says where their power came from and what they'll eventually feel the need to do, "slay." However, this shows that he has at least looked deep into the slayer's history and origins, if he was just to accept slayers at face value he'd see them as good because that is what they are supposed to be.

[Jenni Lou]

Hey! Where all the spoiler tags for this issue 10 discussion? Careful, y'all! Now I have to go edit them in. *sigh*

[vampmogs]

Sorry Jenny Lou I completely forgot! :(

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I just bought the issue. Looking forward to reading it so I can respond properly (rather than responding to a mix of other peoples’ responses, transcripts and bits and bobs!

Having read the first few pages before my lunch hour was up…the posh girl doesn’t come across as quite such a terrible stereotype in the comic as she does when you just hear what she says. But still, when it comes to pinning down British speech patterns and attitudes…Try. Harder.

The Giles/Faith interaction is great and makes me wish there’d been more of it on the show. Especially when he points out that they’re similar, in rather a sneaky-dodgy-backroom-dealing way. It makes me think that the Watcher’s Academy probably ran a few courses in persuasive rhetoric – though they didn’t teach how to deal with people like Buffy, a girl like Faith probably fits more neatly into a psychological stereotype (“Bad Girl with Parental Issues”) that Giles can manipulate. She wants to belong, even if she resists it, so he plays on that desire by bonding with her over her outsider status. She can now be in the outsider club :)

It makes me think that Giles’s close relationship with Buffy over the first four or five years of being her Watcher (whether or not he was employed by the council) made him less inclined to see people as means to ends…but as his relationship with Buffy grew more conflicted and distant (their fight over Dawn, his departure in season 6, their head to head clash over Spike in season 7), Giles perhaps stopped seeing the world so much through Buffy’s eyes. Hell, even Buffy stopped seeing the world through old!Buffy’s eyes (in season 7 she said she’d sacrifice Dawn to save the world). Perhaps the shifting views of the characters on this issue reflect those of anyone who’s growing up…you lose your ideals and adapt to the things the world needs.

And in this case, the world seems to need wetworks. Though Buffy doesn’t seem to know about this little mission.I wonder what the augurs said exactly? Interesting that Giles has such faith in them, even though so many of the prophecies he came across in Sunnydale didn’t come true, or were somehow altered, thanks to Buffy and co. Interesting that he doesn’t trust Buffy to stop Posh Bitch the Blue Blood Slayer from ending the world.

ETA: Appologies if someone's mentioned this already, but I was amused by the fact that Giles cleans his glasses while telling Faith to murder someone, recalling Buffy's (was it Buffy??) comment that he does that so he doesn't have to watch the scoobies doing naughty things. In this case, he's doing it at a time when he's probably not wanting to "see" his own misdeeds. I wonder how much Giles has to lie to himself, or persuade himself that he's doing the right thing? Do you think he had much interior debate about it? This Jack "I'm teh council" Bauer Giles is rather scary, don't you think?

[Veverka]

Perhaps Giles coming to her with such a "drastic" offer and an "out" (seeing that she has been looking for one as of late...) is his way of making her face who she is and make the right decisions.

She's drifting again... That's the way I felt when I read the first opening panels. She's alone, she has no friends to keep her grounded so she's drifting from doing the right thing (Slayer-wise) to doing the Faith-thing. This is Giles way of "shaking her back in line".

Remember when Giles knew what Buffy needed, and made her admit that she had killed Angel under pretense of a spell, etc? *hopes* on the other hand, seems like those days are all but gone...

I'm a little disapointed she hasn't been keeping in contact with Buffy after 'Chosen.' They seemed to finally become friends and had a great understanding, but now Faith is back being alone and isolated and slightly jealous towards Buffy, "I'm not your precious Buffy!" It seems like a step back for her. I also didn't think Buffy would like having no contact with Faith, it always seemed in her character to keep an eye on her after her past but then perhaps the fact that she isn't shows she now trusts Faith more to do the right thing.

My thought exactly... every Buffy/Faith fanfic I reach for has them working together, acting out the whole 'we're stronger as a team thing' and it concerns me that it feels like they're making the steps Faith has taken on this regard (as well as the murderous regard) backwards...

As for the spoiler Anon mentioned... sounds... promising! Three pages over? Nice.

[vampmogs]

It makes me think that Giles’s close relationship with Buffy over the first four or five years of being her Watcher (whether or not he was employed by the council) made him less inclined to see people as means to ends…but as his relationship with Buffy grew more conflicted and distant (their fight over Dawn, his departure in season 6, their head to head clash over Spike in season 7), Giles perhaps stopped seeing the world so much through Buffy’s eyes. Hell, even Buffy stopped seeing the world through old!Buffy’s eyes (in season 7 she said she’d sacrifice Dawn to save the world). Perhaps the shifting views of the characters on this issue reflect those of anyone who’s growing up…you lose your ideals and adapt to the things the world needs.

I agree, if anything I think Giles is reverting more back to Rippper than anything else. I think he tries desperatly to be someone else at the start of Btvs and he needs to be for Buffy's sake. However, with their relationship on the rocks it appears Giles is reverting back to form or at least into a very grey area and this could be because the world just keeps getting darker for them.

And in this case, the world seems to need wetworks. Though Buffy doesn’t seem to know about this little mission.I wonder what the augurs said exactly? Interesting that Giles has such faith in them, even though so many of the prophecies he came across in Sunnydale didn’t come true, or were somehow altered, thanks to Buffy and co. Interesting that he doesn’t trust Buffy to stop Posh Bitch the Blue Blood Slayer from ending the world.

I have a feeling Giles thinks Buffy will let her human emotions get in the way, because that is how he felt about the situation with Spike. At this point Giles isn't one for emotions, he seems to only be looking at things through the big picture.

ETA: Appologies if someone's mentioned this already, but I was amused by the fact that Giles cleans his glasses while telling Faith to murder someone, recalling Buffy's (was it Buffy??) comment that he does that so he doesn't have to watch the scoobies doing naughty things. In this case, he's doing it at a time when he's probably not wanting to "see" his own misdeeds. I wonder how much Giles has to lie to himself, or persuade himself that he's doing the right thing? Do you think he had much interior debate about it? This Jack "I'm teh council" Bauer Giles is rather scary, don't you think?

I don't think anyone had, great point!

And yeah Giles is a bit scary in this Issue. I mean some part of me always knew if he had to Giles could kill assasinate someone with a rifle, I knew he had something like that in him. However, for him to actually state it; well that makes it all the more chilling. It isn't even as if I really disagree with it, though I think Gigi should try and be reasoned with first, but it is still quite shocking to see him admit to it.

Remember when Giles knew what Buffy needed, and made her admit that she had killed Angel under pretense of a spell, etc? *hopes* on the other hand, seems like those days are all but gone...

It really does, we haven't seen that Giles since s6.

My thought exactly... every Buffy/Faith fanfic I reach for has them working together, acting out the whole 'we're stronger as a team thing' and it concerns me that it feels like they're making the steps Faith has taken on this regard (as well as the murderous regard) backwards...

Yeah her jealous line about his 'precious Buffy' kind of disapointed me. After admiting she's always been jealous but then coming to an understanding that Buffy's life is incredibly lonley and hard like her own I thought she'd changed. Being alone for a year and a half on that second rate Hellmouth seems to have effected her badly, more so than prison did which is odd. :s

As for the spoiler Anon mentioned... sounds... promising! Three pages over? Nice.

I'm not sure if they were able to keep them or had to cut it back, here's hoping they keep them in!

[NileQT87]

but here's the thing. everybody acts like buffy and faith should be buds. why? faith's redemption wasn't by buffy and giles, but by angel and wesley. her loyalty and respect is much more towards angel and wesley. there was no point in season 7 btvs where faith stopped viewing buffy as giles' favorite or that buffy had ever stopped viewing her as anything more than firepower. in fact, that's all she was in season 7 btvs, whereas with angel and wesley, faith was one of them--a flawed person on the road to redemption. buffy NEVER supported faith's journey to redemption.

which is another reason why i am massively disappointed in joss for letting faith be a dark horse property. unless it is to support a giles is going dark storyline (which it seems to be), faith would be better utilized and given better respect in angel's gang.

faith has no loyalties to buffy or giles and they don't really care about her other than as a tool. that is still true. at least joss, unlike the fanfics, understand that. she realizes that she is only seen as a wetworks cleaner for jobs that buffy or the little newbies are too moral to do. that's all she is to them. in L.A., faith would be another lost soul keeping up the good fight with people who have no moral superiority complexes. that's a big difference between the scoobies and the fang gang. the scoobies have a superiority complex that the fang gang does not.

the only purpose faith serves is not to help her story and growth like on ats, but to give variety to btvs. on ats, it would be about her and her journey--and how there are characters like her who are also trying to atone by helping her. on btvs, it is always about how she is seen through the microscope of the scoobies. on btvs, she doesn't have anyone who really cares about her, unlike angel and wesley.

and for the argument that faith did horrible things to buffy, so she has a right to not respect her or care about her, etc... it falls flat in that even though faith tortured wesley and tried to kill angel more than once, they still were on her side, caring about HER.

i still think the fact that giles refused to help angel save fred needs to be addressed. obviously, something needs to happen with giles and angel. not helping to save an innocent like fred had nothing to do with wolfram & hart or the fact that she had befriended angel. that dark part of giles needs to be addressed, and i'd like to see perhaps faith show her loyalty to the only person who has truly ever cared about her, believed in her and never given up on her--angel. *that* would be an interesting dynamic between giles and faith.

[ciderdrinker]

The thing about Faith's redemption - to me- is that Buffy and the other scoobies weren't with her when she was doing things right (on AtS) but only when she was doing things wrong, and therefore haven't seen her capacity to change the way that Angel and Wes have

After Faith woke up from the coma she caused all sorts of mayhem in Sunnydale and then left. It is in LA that she asks Angel to kill her and starts her path of redemption. Yes Buffy turns up and sees her hand herself into the police, but the conversation that she and Angel have after show that Buffy is still angry, and very probably not realised that she's come a long way since leaving Sunnydale.

When Wes breaks her out of jail to help with Angelus, the AI team again see how much she's changed, but Willow was the only person from the scoobies there, and they didn't exactly spend a lot of time together.

So Faith goes back to Sunnydale, and the scoobies are cautious to see her but also relieved for the help . They know she's been in jail, and therefore will be somewhat rehabilitated, but I suspect that they all believe she'll fall into bad habits. Buffy and Faith don't exactly get on as friends - more like suffering each others company to get the job done.

That's why I believe it is perfect for Giles and to an extent the other scoobies to send her on this mission. As NileQT87 states they don't care for her as much, and think that she's a lost cause. I think that she was sent to the "Hell On Earth" metaphor that is Cleveland, to see how she coped, and it's clear that without support (or prison bars) she doesn't cope well - hence the trying to obtain a forged passport. She feels as if she's worked this hard to become better and the people she's doing it for (Buffy and the others) don't believe she meant it and almost want to see her fail. That's gotta hurt, especially when you've been treated like s**t all your life!

So this is an opportunity for Faith to prove she's more than a murderer. Maybe she believes that she'll be able to get Lady Genevieve onto the road to redemption - just like Angel did for her, and hence gaining the respect that she so desperately desires from Buffy.

I think that this arc is much more interesting than the military against the slayers arc, and personally think that the season has got into it's stride now. I am expecting a lot of conflict and emotional drama in this arc - which is why I love Joss shows in the first place!

[vampmogs]

but here's the thing. everybody acts like buffy and faith should be buds. why? faith's redemption wasn't by buffy and giles, but by angel and wesley. her loyalty and respect is much more towards angel and wesley.

In season seven Buffy and Faith finally began to understand each other, and they did begin to grow a bond. This is evident in ‘Empty Places’ when Faith is the only one to check on Buffy to make sure she is ok, in ‘End of Days’ when Buffy sticks up for Faith against the potentials and when they have their talk in Buffy’s bedroom. Notedly, Faith is also the last one to wait for Buffy down in the Hellmouth which IMO shows she cared about her, also evident when she screams Buffy’s name as she sees her down and seems genuinely shocked and horrified to see her in such a state. Buffy may have not played a huge part in Faith’s redemption but that doesn’t mean they can’t be best buds. Faith finally understood that just because Buffy has all these people around her doesn’t mean she can’t feel alone, the two finally connected on this level. Faith admits she had always been jealous of Buffy but finally had seemed to overcome that. For her to be jealous of Buffy all over again in ‘No Future For You’ is a step back from the progress she made in season seven.

there was no point in season 7 btvs where faith stopped viewing buffy as giles' favorite or that buffy had ever stopped viewing her as anything more than firepower. in fact, that's all she was in season 7 btvs, whereas with angel and wesley, faith was one of them--a flawed person on the road to redemption. buffy NEVER supported faith's journey to redemption.

I don’t believe Buffy ever viewed her as firepower. Their relationship has always been too personal for that, whether it be in a good or bad state. Never did Buffy opt to have Faith break out of jail so that she could give Buffy a hand, that was Wes needing the person strong enough to take out Angelus. And from their conversation in the jail we know Wes has made no effort to support or see Faith since she turned herself in so I’m not really sure when Wes suddenly started supporting or respecting Faith? He makes it clear to Angel he only helped her in ‘Sanctuary’ because of Angel and not for her.

which is another reason why i am massively disappointed in joss for letting faith be a dark horse property. unless it is to support a giles is going dark storyline (which it seems to be), faith would be better utilized and given better respect in angel's gang.

I think we’d be expecting too much for the Scoobies to just turn the other cheek and forgive Faith with a snap of their fingers. She tried to strangle Xander to death whilst taunting him, was about to get nasty on Willow with her knife, betrayed them, betrayed Buffy twice and awoke from her coma and stole Buffy’s body. She has never done anything to Gunn or Fred, and I can’t help but feel Cordy’s reaction to Faith’s return wouldn’t have been very different from Evil Cordy’s; it certainly didn’t surprise Faith or Wes did it? Faith only directly hurt Wes and Angel and Wes has never stated he has forgiven her, he isn’t exactly jolly when he visits her at the prison and the compassion he shows wouldn’t be any different to the same compassion Willow shows her in the hospital after learning Faith was attacked in prison.

faith has no loyalties to buffy or giles and they don't really care about her other than as a tool. that is still true. at least joss, unlike the fanfics, understand that. she realizes that she is only seen as a wetworks cleaner for jobs that buffy or the little newbies are too moral to do. that's all she is to them. in L.A., faith would be another lost soul keeping up the good fight with people who have no moral superiority complexes. that's a big difference between the scoobies and the fang gang. the scoobies have a superiority complex that the fang gang does not.

It appears that Giles has kept this mission a secret from Buffy and Xander and that is for a reason so I think it is too early to start judging both Buffy and Giles on this subject. And from what we know about Faith, she’s her own worst enemy, I’m not going to be overly sympathetic to her yet until we understand Buffy’s position on her being alone in Cleveland and how much choice Faith was offered. We’ve already seen her act just like she always has in cutting off ties with Wood and the new potentials in typical Faith fashion. We saw a lot of people reach out to Faith and she's thrown it back in their faces, somewhere down the line I think she needs to be blamed for this and not the people who aren't too friendly towards her after being spat on.

Wes used Faith exactly like a tool. We know he hadn’t been to see her since turning herself in, he breaks her out when he needs someone who can take down Angelus and tries to unleash that dark side in her all over again to get the job done, just like Giles appears to be doing now. Wes also fully supports and possibly even began the plan for Faith to drug herself, in which Lorne angrily snaps about how she couldn’t have known the risks but Wes did. Wes was willing to have Faith’s life taken for Angelus to be captured.

the only purpose faith serves is not to help her story and growth like on ats, but to give variety to btvs. on ats, it would be about her and her journey--and how there are characters like her who are also trying to atone by helping her. on btvs, it is always about how she is seen through the microscope of the scoobies. on btvs, she doesn't have anyone who really cares about her, unlike angel and wesley.

Buffy has always been called the bitch when it comes to Faith by a lot of fans but she was actually the first person to try and help Faith, Faith actually says as much. It was Buffy who was trying to be optimistic with Angel when he was being very negative about her rehabilitation in Sunnydale. Not too many people would just turn the other cheek when someone tries to frame them for murder, but Buffy did. Then Buffy is betrayed again and yet still offers her another chance when she awakens from her coma only to have Faith throw it back in her face. Angel hasn’t always been supportive of Faith either, he suggests bringing her to him to feed off in ‘Graduation Day Part II’ and is willing to kill her in ‘Five By Five’ after learning what she did to Buffy. And I’m still not convinced Wes cared about her.

and for the argument that faith did horrible things to buffy, so she has a right to not respect her or care about her, etc... it falls flat in that even though faith tortured wesley and tried to kill angel more than once, they still were on her side, caring about HER.

Still? When as Wes really shown to care about her? He has made no effort to contact her since ‘Sanctuary’ until he needs her muscle, angrily yells at Angel about taking the moral high ground with him concerning Faith and tells Angel that he helped Angel for Angel and not for Faith. He was civil with her, he showed her compassion when she was bleeding but as if Buffy, Willow or Xander wouldn’t have. Giles was just as pleasant to her when he tells her she is doing a fine job leading.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I agree, if anything I think Giles is reverting more back to Rippper than anything else. I think he tries desperatly to be someone else at the start of Btvs and he needs to be for Buffy's sake. However, with their relationship on the rocks it appears Giles is reverting back to form or at least into a very grey area and this could be because the world just keeps getting darker for them.

I don't think it's Ripper Giles etactly. I think, as Darla says about Angel in season 2, where he's not Angel and he's not Angelus...Giles here isn't Buffy's Watcher, and he isn't Ripper. As you say, grey area Giles. (Heh...GAG for short). There are masks upon masks where Giles is concerned. Perhaps there is no "real Giles".....he's become a mix of all his poses.



And yeah Giles is a bit scary in this Issue. I mean some part of me always knew if he had to Giles could kill assasinate someone with a rifle, I knew he had something like that in him. However, for him to actually state it; well that makes it all the more chilling. It isn't even as if I really disagree with it, though I think Gigi should try and be reasoned with first, but it is still quite shocking to see him admit to it.

The rifle is chilling indeed. Not only that he's prepared to murder someone in cold blood...but his weapon of choice being the Anti-Buffy weapon. These things, never helpful. Except for wetworks.

Can I just say how much I've always loved that word. Very glad of the chance to use it lots :)


So this is an opportunity for Faith to prove she's more than a murderer. Maybe she believes that she'll be able to get Lady Genevieve onto the road to redemption - just like Angel did for her, and hence gaining the respect that she so desperately desires from Buffy.

Ciderdrinker, I hope so too! I'd like her to take the mission and then turn it into something else - something better.

[vampmogs]

I don't think it's Ripper Giles etactly. I think, as Darla says about Angel in season 2, where he's not Angel and he's not Angelus...Giles here isn't Buffy's Watcher, and he isn't Ripper. As you say, grey area Giles. (Heh...GAG for short). There are masks upon masks where Giles is concerned. Perhaps there is no "real Giles".....he's become a mix of all his poses.

Great example, it is a lot like that isn't it. I guess your right about there being no real Giles, I mean the real Giles would be the Giles of many faces. Just because we saw loving fatherly Giles first doesn't mean that this is the real Giles, we've seen enough of his other faces to know you can't really say one is more real than the other.

The rifle is chilling indeed. Not only that he's prepared to murder someone in cold blood...but his weapon of choice being the Anti-Buffy weapon. These things, never helpful. Except for wetworks.

Yeah that is very interesting, I wonder if this was intentional by the writers. I think the whole mission is pretty anti-Buffy, but I don't know if I agree or disagree with it. I'd really like to know who is in Giles' employ and where they got their information from which immediatly rules out any chance of rehabilitation for Gigi. I don't think humans as strong as slayers should be treat any different to murderous demons if people have tried to reason with them a number of times, because they threaten other lives. This is why I support Buffy's decision to take Faith out back in Grad I, but Giles hasn't even attempted to try anything with Gigi.

I'm thinking he knows that she is being influenced by Twilight, knowingly or not I think he thinks this means there is no hope for her. Twilight have most certainly got Voll wrapped around their finger, from what we've seen he has completely closed himself off from any other perspective or opinion, it is possible Giles thinks that Twilight's influence of Gigi is to great to change.

Can I just say how much I've always loved that word. Very glad of the chance to use it lots :)

Haha, yeah I think it used first in s4 of Btvs, interestingly in the Faith centric episode when she steals Buffy's body.

[some spykie ship]

Ethan's willingness to be helpful might have been significant foreshadowing of what's to come in this new arc.

Faith is the last person who should be cut off from people and in a "living hell." She's definitely the last person who should be performing dirty wetworks jobs. It's evident to me that the Watcher's Council (whom Giles is apparently the embodiment of) is trying to create a monster. If enough psychological damage is done to Faith, she'll become a lethal killer again that won't respond to reason, and I think this was the intention of whoever's idea it was to make her live the way she does, killing child vamps. If Faith truly does intend to follow through with what she's promised Giles, it's because Giles has broken her and she feels she has no choice.

Buffy will probably show up in the later issues because of the Twilight involvement in this. Hopefully Buffy will be able to talk Faith into helping her help Lady Genevieve. I can't wait to see how Buffy deals with Giles when she finds out what he's up to.

I don't think Lady Genevieve is that far gone. I think she's just being taken advantage of the same way the "Watcher's Council" is taking advantage of Faith. It's the people doing the manipulating who need to be dealt with.

As far as Faith's road to redemption and Fang Gang are concerned, I agree that the Fang Gang were no more supportive than The Scoobies. However, I think both Buffy and Angel did all that they could, I guess because main characters always have to seem flawless.

[KingofCretins]

I thought of a legitimate reason Faith might feel a bit derailed from her redemption.

Who did Faith most chiefly associate with her second chances and her struggle? Angel. And what did she undoubtedly find out about Angel just weeks after having fought and defeated Angelus and having coached Angel back out and having had a great epiphany about her place in things?

That her role model had become, as he was called, "the CEO of Hell, Inc".

Yeah, I went there -- Reason #5,826 (vs. none) why going to W&H was a bad idea.

I could see her becoming, if not completely disillusioned, at least quite disaffected by that development -- enough so to basically fly solo in Cleveland and leave the day to day organized things to Robin, and enough to probably have decided to just give up on any meaningful affiliation with Buffy's organization (of which I assume Cleveland is simply not a part).

I wince thinking of the Season 4 reference to 'wetworks' -- another gratuitous 'hey, Xander's a moron' moment, having the on-and-off-soldier-knowledge-having, action movie loving Xander *not know what it means* when they could have just as easily given the line to Willow, or left it out (since it wasn't actually a very funny joke).

I'm still hedging toward both Buffy and Faith independently not actually wanted to kill Genevieve, but either A) don't understand each other, or B) end up just having more drama in their most common way.

I do think it's significant that Giles would just use a rifle, but not *wildly* outside the scope of this new organization. After all, Buffy's organization does come equipped with at least a couple black helicopters (with who knows who flying them and who knows where housing them; if there's a helipad at the BHC, it's certainly not been shown). Obviously there are non-Slayer personnel in the group, and likewise non-Slayer security and other issues. On "Angel", Wesley carrying firearms was an injection of realistic pragmatism to the show -- they might not be universally helpful against any and all demons, but, to steal from "The Wish" Buffy... you'd be surprised what it can kill. While I don't see Dawn or Xander making a point of using them, Giles, as a Watcher, makes sense as being familiar with firearms.

[vampmogs]

I think Cleveland must be a part of Buffy's organisation, I just don't see any plausible reason to suggest it wouldn't be. We know Wood and a group of slayers are dusting vamps there, and wouldn't these slayers be a squad associated with the BHC? Not only that but they all know that is is a Hellmouth, second-rate or not, which from experience they know means a lot of demonic activity. I just can't see any reason why the BHC wouldn't have ties with Cleveland, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Perhaps because they are so stretched over the globe they don't keep in close contact with all their squads, perhaps they do and they've simply lost contact with Faith who has distanced herself from the squad, but I think it must be affiliated with Buffy in some way.

[KingofCretins]

Granted, it's not necessarily absolute, but as a general rule, you won't find that the home office needs to rely on 'intelligence' to know what's going on in its various franchises. Giles' information about what's going on in Cleveland, by his own admission, was stuff he had learned through sources, not the result of direct contact with Robin, and certainly not with Faith, who he hadn't spoke to since shortly after the collapse.

Compare that to the fluidity and transparency of communication displayed in "The Long Way Home" between Xander, Andrew in Rome, and whoever is with the Barcelona squad.

My theory? Faith came up with the idea to be guardian of the hellnostril on her own, and, still involved with Robin, he went with her. On their own, they rounded up a small group of Slayers and basically set about a Scooby-style system of dealing with Cleveland. Faith, not caring for direct leadership, is basically leader in absentia, or Batman in the Justice League -- around if you pester, but mostly doing her own thing.

At that point, some kind of communication breakdown or falling out with various people basically disengages Faith and Buffy and before you know it, Cleveland is territory of its own and not part of the organization.

Incidentally, we need a nickname or acronym for the organization itself, much as BHC does so well for the castle.

[Anon]

Granted, it's not necessarily absolute, but as a general rule, you won't find that the home office needs to rely on 'intelligence' to know what's going on in its various franchises. Giles' information about what's going on in Cleveland, by his own admission, was stuff he had learned through sources, not the result of direct contact with Robin, and certainly not with Faith, who he hadn't spoke to since shortly after the collapse.

Compare that to the fluidity and transparency of communication displayed in "The Long Way Home" between Xander, Andrew in Rome, and whoever is with the Barcelona squad.

My theory? Faith came up with the idea to be guardian of the hellnostril on her own, and, still involved with Robin, he went with her. On their own, they rounded up a small group of Slayers and basically set about a Scooby-style system of dealing with Cleveland. Faith, not caring for direct leadership, is basically leader in absentia, or Batman in the Justice League -- around if you pester, but mostly doing her own thing.Personally I think that Robin and his group are part of the main organisation, but Faith chose to distance herself from him, and it by association, meaning that they only talk occasionally. Besides, I don't see attempting to obtain false passports as something Faith would shout from the rooftops.

[vampmogs]

Granted, it's not necessarily absolute, but as a general rule, you won't find that the home office needs to rely on 'intelligence' to know what's going on in its various franchises. Giles' information about what's going on in Cleveland, by his own admission, was stuff he had learned through sources, not the result of direct contact with Robin, and certainly not with Faith, who he hadn't spoke to since shortly after the collapse.

But it appears Giles is playing his own game here, and isn’t directly associated with the BHC anyway. As far as Buffy and Xander are concerned he is “their friend in the library” and any information he receives from the BHC appears to be info they choose to give to him. In ‘The Long Way Home Issue 1’ Xander copies Giles the Twilight symbol and appears to give him info again on Twilight once Buffy discovers what they are dealing with at the end of Issue 4. It isn’t as if Giles has access to information the BHC has all on his own, and if he wants to keep this mission from Buffy he wouldn’t exactly go through the BHC to find out about Faith’s situation, he’d use his own personal connections to do that. Giles also says he has people in his employ, he seems to be working a slightly different operation here. We also have to remember that Giles could have easily got in contact with Wood and his squad, but given Faith and how she has distanced herself, he wouldn’t be able to help Giles a great deal on her situation.

Compare that to the fluidity and transparency of communication displayed in "The Long Way Home" between Xander, Andrew in Rome, and whoever is with the Barcelona squad.

Yeah but we can’t take Faith’s situation as an automatic reflection of the situation with the BHC and the Cleveland squad. They seem to be functioning together like you’d expect any squad to do, just because Faith may have isolated herself from the BHC doesn’t mean they have. We did see great transparency between the BHC and the Barcelona and Andrew’s squad but that is really only because the situation called for it, Xander wasn’t exactly going to ask an American squad to go to Europe to deal with some troubles when it’d be far more practical to have a European based squad do just that. So far nothing suggests Renee couldn’t have just as easily got in contact with Robin and his squad, though we can’t say the same for Fai